Welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.
And I'm Charlie Bird. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to consensus, but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, should I go to pride?
Ben and I are not terribly diverse, and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, both of us love to hike and spend quite a bit of time exploring different trails.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, I like hikes for the journey. And Charlie is all about the destination.
It's true.
And Charlie, we've been on a hike before. We hiked Squaw Peak together.
Yeah, we did last summer. It was fun.
But we did not make out of the top....
What?
Squaw Peak is a make out spot!
I'm just so shocked you said that on the podcast! We definitely did not.
Maybe we shouldn't put that in there.
That's fine. I thought you said we did not make it to the top. And I was like, Yes, we did. It's all about the destination.
Well Squaw Peak is my favorite hike in the Provo area, because it's like three different hikes because first year in the canyon, so it's all Rocky, then you're in the woods, and there are these beautiful mountain meadows.
Yeah, it is nice.
It's a really nice journey. And the destination was good, too.
Yeah, great view view of the Valley, view of the Wasatch. We love it. Anyway, we would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives on our show. So today, we're joined by Erika.
Hi. Glad to be here.
Yeah, thanks for coming. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
I am, I think I'm here maybe because of my my experience with Mormons Building Bridges.
That's definitely why you're here.
Exactly why you're here.
I had a hunch, which I was a co-founder of and has been around since 2012. And our organization exists to make LDS homes, congregations and communities safe and welcoming for LGBTQ people and supporting those people on their life's path. So that's what we do.
Amazing.
So Erika, how did you get into this LGBT space?
It's interesting. I think moving to Utah had a lot to do with it. So I'm a straight white lady, I have five kids, all of whom are straight. I think I'll probably get some gay grandkids. But that remains to be seen.
So you don't have any LGBTQ people in your immediate family?
No, no, you know, the uncle, the cousin, like we all do. But anyway, I, for a long time had really put the issue on the shelf. It was something that sort of pained me. And I felt like there just wasn't any way to reconcile the church's policy and doctrine with my love of the gospel. And I loved being a
member of the church. And sort of every year I'd like look at it, rethink it, and say, "Can I still do this?" And I'd always answered Yes, because church is--I have a testimony and church is incredibly important to me. So in 2009, my family moved to Utah, and we had never lived here before.
Where'd you come from?
We came from Connecticut. And we've lived a lot of different places. I grew up in the Boston area, and I was always in the minority, as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So I was used to being in the minority, then I moved to Utah. And suddenly, even though LDS people aren't always in the majority, in Utah, it certainly is the majority religion. So suddenly, I was in the majority. And I was very aware of what an impact a majority religion has
What was that, like? on a community. And also in my ward, I felt a sense of "us and them" this Mormon, non-Mormon thing, as we used to call it, that I had, and I'd never felt that before. And included in the "them" was LGBTQ people. And that worried me. Another part of this journey is, as my kids would become teenagers, they'd say, you know, "Mom, why is the church church turning its back on gay people? That's not what I learned in primary." One of my son's favorite teachers, was
gay. And he said, "You know, this guy is one of the most spiritual people I know, how could there not be a place for him in God's plan?" And so their ability to look at this situation with new eyes really had an impact on me. And then I found myself in Utah. And I just started thinking, you know, I've always loved juxtaposition. I've always loved sort of defying definitions like you can't be this and that, you have to be
either this or that. And so I just thought, how could I show unconditional love to the LGBTQ community, including LDS gay people and trans people? How could I do that in a way that kind of starts a conversation going again? And okay, what are people--what would people not expect--where would people not expect active Mormons to hang out? Oh, at Pride Festivals.
Yeah. And so I just thought for one off, let me get some friends and we are going to go march in the Utah Pride Parade, not against the church, we're marching because of the principles of our religion, not in spite of them. And this was 2012. And it was really a lot of people were thinking about this. And so we hoped 25 people would show up and 350 people showed up. And...
It was beautiful. It was incredibly moving. I mean, we didn't know if we would get bottles thrown at us. You know, the the folks at the Pride center who organized this were just incredibly welcoming and wonderful. But as far as the crowd, we just, we didn't know. And it was kind of an act of faith. And it also was super humbling, in that we knew that we couldn't, we were just there to show love. We weren't there to convince anybody of anything. We weren't there to show how
enlightened we were. Because this is another group space, really, you know? But the crowds were cheering and it was just people were running up and hugging us. And...
I love the thing you said, Sorry, I love that you said that going to Pride for you was an act of faith, because I kind of had a similar experience. And I'm grateful that your organization was there. Because I also had a similar experience. The first time I went to pride, I was in Washington, DC. And I was there
alone. And I--Pride for me, the first time was an act of faith, because it was the first time I was really stepping out and like putting myself in a place where other people were gonna see me and where I could actually interact with other gay people. Because until then, I just completely avoided it altogether. And I ended up finding a group of Latter-day Saints, members of my church online, that were going to be there marching in the Pride
Parade. And I was completely baffled by that, because I honestly thought it was a joke, some kind of Candid Camera material moment, because it just seems so like that's not the space for, for Christians, for church goers for devout saints. But it turns out it was, and like you said, there were so many people there. And the support that the religious support that was there at Pride was, was really astounding to me. And also really comfortable.
It gave me a comfortable place to go to my first Pride and have a really good experience when I was scared. So...
Yeah, and it can be scared, scary. But we want to identify really clearly as Latter-day Saints. And this is-- there are a lot of times Pride Festivals are on Sunday. And that's an understandable issue for people.
Right.
But we put on our church clothes, and we carry signs that have scripture on them. And it's it's a form of Sabbath observance for me and other people have referred to it as worshiping with your feet. So...
Wow. Yeah,
That's wonderful. That you did that. That's fantastic.
I'm curious what what both of your experiences were in a spiritual sense going, going to Pride like how you were taught spiritually? Because I've only been to one Pride parade and was in Tucson, Arizona, in 2016. I actually marched with Mormons And I asked one of my friends to go with me and then I Building Bridges. I was invited to go, it was a small group,
there are only 14 of us. And I was really hesitant to go because I wasn't sure how I would be treated as a Latter-day Saint wearing a white shirt and tie at a Pride Festival. I wasn't sure what active Latter-day Saints would think of me, going to a Pride Festival. I was really nervous. I actually decided to go and decided not to go about four or five times. And I even emailed my Stake President asked him if I could
go. And he basically said, "Ben, I trust you, you know, you'll figure out the cancelled and then he said, "Ben, if you decide to go just let me know." And about two hours before I said, "Okay, I want to go." And so I drove over to his house picked him up. And we went over to the festival together and and as we were queuing up for our spot in the parade, one of the organizers came and she said, "I grew up in the church, and I left a while ago, but it just means so much
to me to see you guys here." And then as we were marching--I was asked to hold the banner--so my friend and I were the ones holding the banner. And as we walked down the street instead of people, like you said, throwing bottles, people just cheered for us. And they said The Mormons are here. The Mormons are here,"
Right.
And we were just cheered and cheered and people were so excited to see us. And then I remember when the parade ended, another woman who would help organize organize the parade saying just again, "thank you, thank you, thank you for coming." And I just felt so welcomed that Pride Parade and I hope that any LGBTQ person would feel as welcome as my congregate at my congregation, as I felt that Pride Parade,
Right? Yeah, that's, that's a really moving experience. It helps you understand what it feels like to be a little bit uncomfortable, to be concerned about whether you're going to be accepted or not. And that's a really important experience, I think for particularly straight allies that are LDS to have to think about that. about somebody who's who might be considering a queer person who might be considering coming to church on any given Sunday.
My most recent Pride experiences is my favorite because I think that's when I learned that Pride is an individual thing. And I think it was always scary to me because it seemed like this wild catch-all.
Right.
And it's really important to set boundaries and like, understand who you are what you want out of the experience, but but if you know that, I think you can get it. And that's what I did this this last year, Pride 2019, I was asked by an organization to kind of like help lead their their float. And I said, Yes. And I took friends, I took ally friends, I took people that I trusted, who were there with me, and they were with me the whole day. Essentially, they were
there was a march. And then there was like, a little break. And then, like a festival. And in the break, I went to church with my friends. And I was just so proud. To me, that was my Pride, I got to represent who I was as a gay man. And I got to represent who I was as a child of God and like a faithful Latter-day Saint, within like an hour, you know. And in that one hour was just so beautiful. Because, as you were saying, there's a lot of like, paradox, right? You can't be one, you
can't be the other. But last year,at Pride I was both because I was me. And yeah, it was just a beautiful experience. That being said, I've--the year before, I had a really bad experience at Pride because I went in alone. And I was scared. And I didn't like have a group I didn't, I was just kind of like wandering awkwardly by myself and that was really terrible. I was not proud, there was nothing inspiring or hopeful about that
experience. And I guess that's kind of my take on it, that you, you can make it your own experience. And it can be really beautiful, if that's something that that you need and is valuable to you.
Right. Absolutely. And, you know, I mean, the history of Pride does not involve a lot of people of faith. Okay, from the beginning.
Right.
And but now, as you know, as we've seen how important families are, for instance, to LGBTQ people, that it's not like, deciding to that if you're gay, you're not going to be involved in families anymore. That's like the old days. And so we see, I think there are more and more
Right. opportunities for folks who don't want the stereotypical, lots of skin and glitter Pride.... Right
To find groups and find people and have an experience that is meaningful and even spiritual for them.
Definitely.
Can I share a little bit of a blog post I wrote back in July?
Yes, absolutely. Sure.
So I went to Tucson Pride in 2016. I was in Atlanta, I think in 2018-19. Just when Pride happened to be happening, I went with some friends. But those are the only times I've been to Pride. I just, I don't love festivals. I don't love parades, so...
Sure.
That's not really my thing.
Yeah, yeah. Not for everybody.
So I wrote a blog post called "Pride is the opposite of shame." And this is just a paragraph and a half. I wrote: "The way I show my Pride is by telling my story. I show my Pride by allowing myself to be seen. I show my Pride by inviting others to walk in my shoes. And if the if the word 'Pride' makes you feel uncomfortable, here are some synonyms that might make it easier to relate to: dignity, self-respect, honor. Gay dignity means that I am comfortable
being myself around others. Gay self-respect means that I welcome all parts of me as important ingredients of who I am. Gay honor means that I no longer want to die because of my sexuality." And for me that that one experience that I had marching in the Pride Parade with Mormons Building Bridges, was a really healing experience for me. I love how you said that
you went out of love Erika. And out of the 14 people that went the one time I marched with Mormons Building Bridges, there was a woman from the Spanish branch I was attending who came and her son had just come out to her. And she said, "I'm here so that my son knows how much I love him and support him."
Beautiful, beautiful. And yeah, the here's something that I didn't know until I marched in Pride was that I had, you know, all through my years in the church, I'd seen gay people leave the church. And I understood what that meant, what that choice meant, I understood that a lot of people needed to do it. And I kind of felt like, "Go," you know, "God be with you. And I'm sure you're gonna have a great life because you've, you've made this
decision." And at my first Pride, I was able to talk with people and these kinds of conversations are what are really key for me about the experience, who had left the church, but we're so grateful that we were there and they said, "When I had to decide between my identity and my activity in the church, I chose my identity, but it left a hole in my heart." And I that was something that for me as an ally I just hadn't understood at all. And it made a big difference.
So it opened up your heart to their experience.
Yeah, yeah, right.
In kind of colloquial "church speak," there's this
"Beware of pride."
Right? Interesting. Yeah. And yeah.
Well, and I used to I, of course, I was dealing with a lot of internalized homophobia and trying to run away from this subject in general...
Right.
But growing up every time I would read the Book of Mormon, I'd see like, beware of pride.
Pride cycle.
Yeah, I'm like, "Oh, Pride, I'm..." and so there was--I remember, one of my favorite artists came near my hometown to do a free concert when I was in high school. And I was so excited. But it was, it was part of like, the Pride lineup. And I didn't go, because I was like, I will not be associated with with that satanic pride. Right? So what would you say? What would you say to someone who kind of comes at you with this, this idea, beware of pride. This is kind of like...
Right. Well, let's look at what "Pride" means in the Book of Mormon, okay? Which is individuals feeling like they can make it without God. Individuals feeling like they are better than other people, that they have done something to deserve all the goodness in their life. Okay. And I think that's a very different definition than being at peace with who you are, with how God made you. And being a proud child of God. You know, I think that's, that's a different
thing. And it is, you know, I'm an English teacher, and I understand how important words are. And as we're growing up, these words, just have a huge power over us. But also like an English teacher, we need to take things in context. And the context of "Pride" in the Book of Mormon is really quite different than the idea of being proud about your identity.
And what advice would you give to someone who is scared to go to Pride? Because of maybe its reputation of not being family friendly or faith affirming?
Right? Well, come be with Mormons Building Bridges. You'll find people who you'll find your brothers and sisters, your siblings, who you can feel totally comfortable with, in in other places. And we and we, by the way, love to help people march as a Mormons Building Bridges group, any place in the world, so we can help you do that. But I would say don't go alone. Try to go go with a
friend. And understand that some places, you're just going to take a look and you're just going to turn right around and say, "I'm not gonna go look at that," right. And that's fine.
I'll also add that a lot of times, especially if you're in a bigger area, there'll be a Pride month, and they'll have a lot of different activities.
Yes.
So for example, that year I was in Washington, DC, there was an interfaith service for Pride. There was museum night and library night and a book club. And there's a lot of different activities that can kind of reach a whole gamut of interests.
Right. And, and also look at what your employer is doing. There might be something in the workplace to celebrate Pride that that you could get involved in. So there are all kinds of things
Great.
The last two years I've helped plan the Provo Pride interfaith and I guess I have gone to Pride more than I thought. Ahh, you got me. And those are really beautiful experiences to have people of different faiths who identify as LGBTQ, share their experiences and their life stories and also share your music and prayers and worship together has been a really beautiful, meaningful experience.
Yeah, the Utah Pride Interfaith is on the Thursday before Pride, and it's always been really good, and a lovely time to be with people of faith.
Last year, Ben, I think, right before Pride, I texted you and I was like, "Hey, are you going tomorrow?" And you're like, "No, I just don't feel like it." And I was like, "Okay." And I think that's, that's okay, if you're gay.
Absolutely.
If you're LGBTQ, you don't have to go to Pride if you don't want to.
It's just, it's hot...
It's not. It's not a test. It's not a test. You know,
You don't have to prove yourself to anybody. But I mean to anyone, you know?
Who wants to drive all the way to Salt Lake from Provo?
I do. I'd be walking right next to Erika.
They're all different ways to celebrate Pride.
So what I've heard you say about Pride is it's helped you understand others better...
Absolutely.
And give you an opportunity to express your love for God's children.
You got it.
All right. Thank you for joining us today. Please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We are not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.
You heard three perspectives and there are many, many more, we encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com Until next time...
Hi, Charlie and Ben, this is Erika with an update since we recorded our podcast episode two and a half months ago. So much has happened. It's kind of seems like a different world. I am involved in a new project now. I've stepped away from the leadership of Mormons Building Bridges--super proud of the Mormons Building Bridges community. And I hope that your listeners will investigate that opportunity and turn to Mormons Building Bridges if that's a
good place for them. I'd also like to announce the arrival of a new organization that we call "Emmaus". This organization's mission is to minister to LGBTQ people and their families in and adjacent to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We're working for circles of support for LGBTQ people in every Ward and Stake. And I encourage your listeners to go to our Facebook group "Emmaus LGBTQ ministry," if they are interested. So I hope you
enjoyed the podcast. And thanks again, Ben and Charlie for everything that you're doing. God be with you. Take care