Welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Charlie Bird,
and I Ben Schilaty. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives
Today's question is, should I go to BYU?
Ben and I are not terribly diverse and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, both of us will be attending classes at BYU this fall.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, Charlie will be taking classes and I'll be teaching classes.
Very nice. Ben, what classes do you teach?
So I'll be teaching as an adjunct professor two classes, I'll be teaching a class that I designed called "Understanding
diversity and intersectionality." And I'll be teaching a Spanish class to Spanish to 221.
That's so cool. What will your diversity class cover?
We're going to talk about first of all, how do I ...
I know this isn't scripted, I just actually want to know.
Okay, the first half of the class is going to deal with like, how do we have effective dialogues? How do we deal with disagreements? How do we talk about issues that can be charged? And then we're going to get close to or proximate to a bunch of different marginalized groups. So we're going to learn about people of different racial backgrounds, people with disabilities, we're gonna learn about sexism and gender and LGBTQ issues, all that kind of
stuff. And that people have different faith backgrounds and different belief systems.
That's cool. I think it's very needed. That's great.
It's gonna be fun. So with that, I apologize my students ahead of time.
So we would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives, and today we're joined by Michael Griffin.
Hi. It's great to be with you, Ben and Charlie.
So tell us a little bit about yourself, Michael.
My name is Michael Griffin. I've been. So I work at BYU right now. I'm an assistant professor. I've been working in BYU for about three years. I'm a native to Utah. I grew up here. Went to BYU as an undergraduate, served a mission, went off to grad school, then came back to BYU to start teaching.
Yeah, so all of us are connected to BYU in some way. So you work at BYU as the faculty member. I work in the Honor Code office and teach some classes. And Charlie.
I was a student and a student athlete. And I'm going back. Yeah.
So what what led you guys to come to BYU as students?
It seemed like a great place to be a great environment to come and study a great school and a lot cheaper than a lot of the other schools I was looking at. And so it seemed like a natural choice when I got in.
I know a lot of families, like have these like long histories of generations going to BYU. My parents are both converts and my sister got into BYU but we didn't like have that tradition of going to BYU. But I growing up in the Seattle area, I just really wanted to be with a bunch of Latter-day Saints like being that that was really that was my main pull to come to BYU. And I thought it'd be a better place to get married.
Yeah, I think my dad was probably disappointed. I didn't go to Utah State.
And look at you now. Still at BYU? Yeah, I echo what both of you said it was kind of I'm from Missouri, and was kind of the way to get out, especially as a member of the church, like, it's just natural to go to BYU if you want to leave the state. And I had never really been surrounded by people at the same faith background, and I kind of wanted that experience. I've been to like an EFY on campus. And I really liked it. I really liked the I guess it's just a beautiful
campus. The buildings are nice, the mountains are gorgeous. So it's just kind of I didn't have any pressure to go there. But I just it felt right. I should add, if I'm being completely honest, what you said about wanting to date and marry, that did play into my decision. But that was like a fear based decision. Because in high school, like I knew I was denying my orientation. And I wanted to be in a safe space.
Because I thought that if if I went to another school, then I would end up dating a guy and I really didn't want to that really scared me at the time. So a small part of my decision to go to BYU was just because I thought it would help me put off that side of me that I was scared of.
It was a way to like, like, keep yourself from quote unquote, being gay.
Yeah. Like being gay in the world. Like, yeah, basically growing up, like worldly things were anything gay to me, because that was really the only thing that I had an issue with, right? And so I thought it would just be the safest place for me.
Yeah. But that's interesting, that didn't really play a factor into my decision. Because at the time, I wasn't really open to myself. I wasn't willing to acknowledge to myself that I was attracted to guys. And so that's not really even something I thought about.
Same. So I've actually been to BYU as a student three times. And, and so the first time I went for my bachelor's, I didn't even consider myself gay at all. And when I came back to BYU for my Master's in Hispanic linguistics, I remember reading like in first Nephi right before going back to school, read about how Nephi and his brothers like went back to Jerusalem to get the plates? And they went back a second time to get wives. I thought, well, I came to BYU the
first time to get knowledge. And the second time I'm going back to get married, like, I really thought I was coming back to BYU to marry a woman.
It's really interesting because there's so many things about BYU, in my BYU experience that were absolutely incredible. The education I got and the friends that I made, and just the fun culture around being in Provo, but as an LGBTQ person, there is like a certain element of discomfort there and isolation. And so I think that's kind of what we're going to get into in this episode. Like, we're definitely going to talk
about some good things. But I think all of us are ready to be just like really honest about the difficult things because I mean, furthering your education is a huge decision. And this is a decision that a lot of kids are trying to make. And I think kids are coming out younger and younger these days, you know,
Coming to school and realizing that they are already out and, and okay with orientation.
Yeah. So this is an interesting question to me, because, so like I say, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't something that was really on my mind when I first came to BYU. But I know that this is a really difficult decision for a lot of people. So for a lot of members of the church, you know, they see BYU as, you know, a natural choice, if they're able to get in, it's a natural choice place
to place to come. But also, if you're LGBTQ, then maybe it seems like a really obvious choice that you shouldn't go to BYU. And so there's a lot of things to a lot of things to consider. I know there's a lot of people who, who are afraid of coming to BYU who are afraid that there's going to be pressures on them, or a lot of homophobia or, and my my experience working with students, I think students at BYU, who are LGBTQ, I've seen students have have a wide range
of experience. Some of them have very, very positive experiences. Some of them have some not so positive experiences. And there's maybe some things to think about there about, you know, what is what is your experience going to be coming to BYU based on who you are and how you're going to react to certain things. And then maybe some other things that you want to think about, as far as like preparing yourself to come to BYU if that's a choice that
you're going to make? I think it would be important for for an LGBT student coming to BYU to have people to talk to. To be able to talk to current students to be able to or past students about their experiences, what was hard for them, or what worked out well for them? To be able to have people on campus to be able to form a sense of community in the support group to help them.
Yeah, definitely.
And there are more and more people on campus who are who are openly allies and openly LGBTQ. And I think there are a lot of people you can connect with. Anyone who wants to talk to someone like you're always welcome to come by my office
Or my office.
And we would just like like let's chat.
Or like, wave me down on campus.
Charlie doesn't have an office.
I'm not as established as these gentlemen. Yeah, for me, it was kind of interesting, because BYU was so closely tied into my own, like self-acceptance and coming out process because, and I think that's pretty like regular occurrence. I didn't really start digging into my orientation and trying to figure myself out until after my mission. And after my mission, I
was at BYU. So it's kind of funny, because like, a lot of like, all of my growth, almost all of my growth with my orientation and identity happened to BYU. But also it came with a lot of pain and discomfort. I think just kind of as a general rule, I guess maybe I can't generalize this. But in my experience, being closeted at BYU with no support system is terrible. And it is horrible. For sure.
I was, like, I would say, some of the darkest times in my life, were when I was closeted, and no one knew. And I was in this culture where I had to be getting married and like being focused on that. And that that was really, that was really tough for me, then once I started coming out and being more open, things for me got a lot brighter.
Yeah, and that's, that's an interesting thing there. Because as again, as I've talked with certain students, there's a lot of them that are afraid of coming out, they're afraid that they're going to be rejected, they have this just kind of ambient fear that if they come out, their their their friends, their roommates, their professors, their classmates, they're going to be rejected, that they're going to be ignored
or hated, or whatever else. But my experience, by and large has been that people tend to be a lot more accepting than then you're afraid. I mean, and that's, that's not universally true. There's reasons why people are afraid of this. But I feel like by and large, more people are going to be accepting more people are going to be there to support you and help you than you expect.
As far as like people's general attitudes on campus, when I was closeted, I heard a lot more like negative or harsh language around LGBTQ issues. And I think that's just kind of natural but but now that like I'm out if if people say things like that--they just don't--because first of all, they know I'm gay, I think I think there needs to be a lot more gay visibility at BYU. Because historically, it's kind of been like an us versus them mentality. And people don't really understand that the
"them" is "us." And so just being out help start conversations, and makes people double think about what they're saying, I guess I'll share this experience, this kind of like, encapsulates what the LGBTQ experience is at BYU for me. I was in, I think, an ethics class and we were having like a diversity training on LGBTQ in the workplace. And this kid raised his hand and essentially said something along the lines of how he didn't take an internship because the CEO was
gay. And he wasn't comfortable with that. And that he would have to, like travel and go on business trips with the CEO, and he just thought it was wildly inappropriate. And, obviously, like, I wasn't out yet, but in my heart, I was just like, "Oh my gosh?" Like, that's a horrible thing to say, I can't believe this, like, ideology still exists in 2018. It was a couple years ago, and I was really upset and really mad. And, but as he said that, like 20 different people's hands shot
up. And the teacher was like, "No, I'm going to take this one." And basically, it was like, that is terrible. That is not Christ-like, that is not even anything to do with business ethics at all. Actually, that's just like, a horrible misconception. And so it was so interesting, like this juxtaposition of people who were like, overtly homophobic, and people who were like strong allies, and then me who was gay, all in the same room. And like, there's a lot of that type of
conflict. But there is visibility, like there are allies, and there are 30 people whose hands shoot up to stop that sort of like, ideology.
Yeah. So one thing you said there kind of stood out to me, is this idea of, of the professor being there, and you being gay, and, you know, this kind of mixture of allies and homophobia is one thing that I've I've, when I've had conversations with my colleagues about this, I've tried to put forward this idea just so that it's in people's heads, because I think that they, a lot of my colleagues, a lot of the professors don't actually think very much about LGBT students.
But the fact is, we expect that there's probably about one in 30 students on campuses is LGBT, give or take, yeah, most classes are about that size. We can expect that there's an LGBT student in most classes that we teach. In fact,
In every class I was ever in, there was a gay student.
Sometimes those statistics get weirdly skewed. So I have a I have a very small class that I teach, usually every other semester in the fall.
What's it called?
And it was so this is, this is a class that's preparing students to take math competitions.
That sounds like a really cool thing to do.
You know us, we're pretty much the jocks of the math department. But yeah, it's um, small class in that particular class tends to be--I discovered last year is a little bit over represented in the number of students that are LGBTQ.
Gays do math?
Yeah, we do.
Wow.
Just talking about, you know, support at BYU, I, Charlie and I were part of a working group at BYU, his last year as an undergrad and my first year of doing a master's in social work at BYU. And we met weekly with campus administrators to talk about what we could do to make BYU a more inclusive place. And so I got to know a number of administrators who just care so
much. I remember one of the administrators saying that, you know, out of all the things that she had to do at BYU, the thing that was the most meaningful to her was this LGBTQ advocacy stuff. Like that's the thing that mattered the most to her. And I was on a panel as part of the BYU annual religious freedom review. I think it was two years ago, 2018 and I was on the panel with with Steve Sandberg, who's the General Counsel at BYU, and
he and I are great friends. And because of this working group that we were on together, and during the Q&A of the panel, the panel is about how to about LGBTQ students at BYU, someone asked a really rude question. And Steve, knowing me knew this was a question that was particularly triggering to me. And while this question was being asked, Steve just kind of reached over put his hand on my knee, just kind of like to say like, "I got you, I'm here with you." And that really meant a
lot to me. And then instead of leaving me up to answer this question, he took charge and made sure that that he said something. And then, and then I said, "I want to say something too." And I answered this question a little, a little bit as well. But I found there are a lot of people on campus who are really wanting to create safe spaces for LGBTQ students really love us and care about us.
Yeah, to me, it's really comforting that I know a lot of professors and administrators who are very accepting and welcoming and like trying to build bridges, like Ben was just saying. And I think there's also like physical representations of that. And that a lot of professors have like, little "All are welcome" rainbow pins outside their offices. And there's like, little things of visibility. And I'm seeing more and more as the
years go on. I will add, though, I feel like just real quick, we should talk about BYU culture, like student culture in general. Because like the dating culture at BYU is very, very intense. In fact, I'd say it is like 80% of BYU's culture is dating and marriage. Like it's the whole "BYU I do." I don't know. There's so many jokes about it. Right? Like you go to get your ring and your degree, whatever.
Your M-R-S?
Mrs. Thank you. Thank you. I was unable to get my Mrs. Yeah, that's really tough. And I think a lot of that bled into my like church,. Like there would be it would be like dating, like mandatory dating classes at church. And like,
Like every other week?
Yeah, like all the time and everyone's trying to set you up on dates. And like, my niece and my friends, everyone's just trying to set me up with everyone. And that was very, very uncomfortable. So again, as a positive person, living in that culture and trying to like, like, here's the deal. I'm a gymnast. But that was the hardest gymnastics I've ever done. Trying to, like get around this BYU dating culture and like, fit in culturally and be like socially. Like, whatever,
like, okay. But still being closeted. And I think that's actually something we should talk about real quick.
I think that's interesting, because for me, that was never really an issue. Because when I was doing my undergrad, my first Master's at BYU, like, I was there to get married, like, I did want to marry a woman. So all this like dating and like, a freshman there like, yeah, I want to get married. And so I was into that. And then when I came back for my Master's in social work, I was 33. I was openly gay, I knew I wasn't gonna, I wasn't trying to get
married. And so I came with this, like confidence and assurance and knowledge of like, who I was and what I was going to do. And so whenever there was like, any dating pressure wasn't such a big deal, because I already knew I was already really solidified in who I was and what I want to be. So I wasn't quite an experience I had, I can see how that would be difficult.
So that doesn't just go away when you're a professor, but it changes a little bit. So in my experience, as a professor, people don't ask you, if you're married, they ask you what your spouse does, or if you have kids. And just just an assumption, just a fun assumption.
Yeah, that's tough.
Yeah. And then we put those awkward positions like, do I come out to them? And like, put them in an awkward situation?
And, and if not, if you just say, "Oh, I'm not married," then you're as likely as not to get "Oh, well, that's a good thing you're at BYU. It's a great place to get married."
Yeah, yeah.
So even if you are out, you might have to continually come out to people just because nobody assumes anyone's gay BYU.
Yeah, it right. Because like, the assumption is, everyone here is straight. And so you're just going to assume that you're straight.
Which is a misconception, and it needs to go. So if you're listening to this....
Which is why like, I wear a rainbow ring everyday at work. And I mean, if you know two things about me, you know, one of the things is that I'm gay. So yeah. So Charlie, why did you decide to come back to BYU this fall?
Yeah, I was looking to get a master's in social work or some sort of like clinical therapy based degree and I was looking at different schools. I came back here over the summer, I was working on my book and my sister was in Provo. I just was like, hiking and writing and I just realized that I love BYU. It's so funny, because when I graduated, I wanted to get as far away from it as I could, and I moved to Manhattan and I was like, I need a completely different culture. And then I
missed it. I really did. So last time I was here I was having a lot of great experiences with my friends and it just like Provo in general is just such a beautiful area and very outdoorsy, so it just like fit with my lifestyle. And I wrote almost all of my books in the JFSB, which is my favorite building on campus. It's just so beautiful, and I've always felt
so safe and welcome there. So then I was here in October, I came back for like a BYU Cosmo alumni thing because Cosmo, like the legacy of Cosmo was honored for the last homecoming. And we're at this luncheon and I was talking to the President and the Vice President of the University. We were just having a little conversation. And after the convo one of them said, "Welcome home." And when he said that I almost started to cry because I was like, this is my home and it just felt so true.
And I don't know if he'll ever hear this or even if I'll ever talk to him again. But it just felt that that that BYU was my home. And that's where I needed to be. And so I was looking at a couple other schools at the time. And then I just kind of stopped looking at different schools and decided that I wanted to come back to BYU, because it just felt right. And so I don't know if that's like a really good answer other than just, it's so much a part of who I am. And I and I really wanted
to come back. And, you know, the first time I came to BYU, I was closeted. And I did a lot of work for the working group, but it was always in the closet, right? The only people who knew were other members of the working group. And so I just felt like it would be really powerful to go back as like unknown, openly gay student on campus. And I wanted that experience.
I had a very similarly but yet different experience. When I was finished finishing my last degree, my Master's in social work. just over a year ago, I was walking to a Tuesday devotional, and I was like, looking around campus and I was like, "This is my home." Like, BYU has become my home and I love it here. Like I love BYU so much. I just like felt like, like, BYU wasn't done with me yet. Like I had more to do and more to learn at the university.
And then when the Honor Code office job opened up, a few months later, I just felt like that's, that's what I want to do. I want to stay BYU, and this is where I want to be.
Yeah, this was, for me applying to come back to BYU as a faculty. I had similar feelings. I mean, they were really complicated. At that point, I was more open to myself that I was gay. But I wanted to come back to to BYU to Utah to be here on this campus in the shadow of the mountains. It's a beautiful place, and students are amazing. There's so many things about BYU that I absolutely love.
Yeah, so every university has a code of conduct. And that describes, you know, what is and isn't appropriate behavior at the university, it often includes honesty, sometimes dress and grooming standards. Our Student Conduct code of Student Conduct is called the Honor Code at BYU. Other universities even use that same the same verbiage. And so sometimes, gay students, or LGBTQ students have felt attacked by the honor code. So there used to be a policy called
"homosexual behavior." That said it was okay to identify as LGBT, as gay, like that wasn't an Honor Code violation. But acting on those feelings was a violation of the Honor Code. And so some students felt like they were going to be quickly expelled, if they did anything that could be even considered gay. And back in 2019, Kevin Utt, who is the current Honor Code director, he was interviewed for an article in BYU magazine. And I just wanted
to read two parts of that. He said, "Between 10 and 15 students are expelled each year. But nearly all others successfully complete the Honor Code process and return to good standing with BYU." And when I was a student, there was this there was this perception that if you grow a beard, you're going to get expelled. If you do this, you're going to get expelled, like like any article
violation means expulsion. But really, According to the article, it's just between 10 to 15 students are expelled each year. So it's, it's a really low number of students. And then in the same article, Kevin says well it says, "Like other universities, BYU follows the due process, allowing the student to know the reported violation and who made the accusation to respond and to provide evidence, and the student is presumed innocent until the preponderance of evidence standard has been met."
And so I know, a lot of students who are just like, so worried that if they did anything that even looks gay, they could be falsely accused, and turned into the Honor Code office and then expelled. And, you know, according to this article, but that's, that's not what's happening. Like, there has to be actual evidence that there's some kind of violation.
Yeah, I think for me, the worst part about the Honor Code, or the most difficult part about the Honor Code was like the cultural....
it was sort of used as, as an object of fear, more than more than something to to keep people with a sense of purpose and honor. And, and all those good things. It wasn't. It often was, was this negative thing, not a positive thing.
Yeah, among the students, there's like a lot of cultural paranoia that surrounds it. And I kind of fed into that I would read the homosexuality clause. And I would feel like othered and scared, right? And I kind of like, would feed into that. And I think generally, among the students, there's like a ton of jokes about like, "Oh, that's against the honor code," and like, kind of like a police mentality. And that is like, they are just jokes, but they get to you, especially when
you're gay. And that was really hard in my undergraduate, like, knowing there was this clause and worried like, well, if anyone finds out I'm gay, and I'm at lunch with my brother, are they going to think that I'm on a date? And then I'm like I didn't want any type of like accusations or... And the thing is like none of that ever happened. I think a lot of that was just purely paranoia and a fear that like, wasn't actually
true. I mean, Ben just said, like, a very low number of people get kicked out and it's not like all 10 to 15 of those people were gay, or it was like some sort of homosexual related infraction. It's probably like, I assume, like a lot of cheating, right? I don't know. You know, just like academic dishonesty and stuff. But but like that culture at BYU, that little subculture is really difficult.
And I know a lot like I've talked to a lot of students who felt you know, that like scared that you know, what if I get falsely accused, like what this happens? For some reason, like, I was never worried about it as, during all my time, this year, I spent eight years as a student at BYU. And, you know, I knew I wasn't violating the honor code. So I just was never worried about it. Like, I didn't think I
had to worry. But I know a lot of students who do have those same feelings that you had Charlie,
I think, in a way, it kind of pushes students into like, a darker place and like, shoves them more into closet, that type of environment. And I had dinner with a friend the other day, and she she said, This phrase that really stuck out to me, and she said, "secrets make you sick." And I think if you're holding on to a lot of secrets, you're gonna get sick. And if I don't know, like that part of BYU's culture, the Honor Code is, for me was the most difficult in regards to my orientation.
I yeah, I totally agree with that. Like, if there's a there's this culture of feeling like if you come out, if you are openly gay, then you are going to be spied on, you're going to be watched, people are going to turn you in. I don't really see much evidence of that happening. And that was never my experience. I was super open my last two years at BYU, and no reports are made about me. When I went out with gay friends all the time, even you Charlie....
It's interesting, like, like the president of the university said, "Welcome home," you know, and like he knew I was gay, like everyone does. Right? I came out very publicly, in in like, a very BYU related way. And so yeah, I just, I think that's a misconception that we can cleared up. And I think I hope by like people like us and others being openly LGBTQ on campus, that can kind of start to dissolve in the future,
Right. And because we like, I don't want any student to feel like because they're at BYU, they can't be open about their orientation and talk about it.
Yeah, that's not true at all.
As we're talking about, about how things are right now on campus, I think it's worth also, maybe at least understanding that there are some reasons that these conceptions of have come into place. BYU is, I mean, there there is a history of of BYU, not always being as friendly as it is apparently, to LGBT students or to students who are allies.
Yeah. Like, like the this culture of paranoia isn't something that students just invented?
Yeah.
It's passed down from like,
Right, right.
From from some some history that wasn't always very kind to the LGBTQ people on campus.
Yeah. So yeah. So this, this does come from from from kind of a long history. And BYU has a has a complicated history with its relationship with, with LGBT students. I mean, extending all the way back to President Wilkinson in the 60s, asking LGBTQ students to leave campus, some really unfortunate things happening in the 70s, at BYU. And that's something that I think, could even be difficult for, for for current students coming to understand what went
on at BYU. And understanding that that's in connection with even some current church leaders. I know that that could be extremely painful. And I don't want to really jump into that right now. I think that's something that maybe students could learn about on their own, but I think it's worth understanding. And and, yeah, I think maybe it's worth it.
No, I think you made a really good point. And, you know, there's been a lot that's been said in our community, especially BYU that has caused me and other members of the LGBTQ community like some pretty deep emotional damage, right? And, and like, I'll never like excuse or condone that type of behavior, but but at the same time, like, I think, at least for me, personally, as I would read more about that and read more into that, I kind of
started projecting rejection. I was talking to you about this, Ben, the other day. Like the more I would focus on how things used to be, it might dig into to that hurt, it would make me think that that's how the current environment was. And then it made me feel unsafe on campus, like I would project rejection. And I mean, it's, it's kind of tricky, but like, like moving forward, I've decided that just for my own emotional well being, I can't get hung up on that kind of
stuff. And that a lot of people's opinions in the past were kind of formed in ignorance. And I have to realize that like people who don't really know, I don't think there was like, evil, malicious intentions. I think a lot of it was just a lack of education or exposure. And I think it's really healthy and wise to acknowledge the past so we can understand the future where we're at and how we can make it better.
But I think that's a really wise
Yeah. Like we have to build the future. Like we can look at the past to understand it. But it has to be with the idea to make things better in the future, not to get hung up about how it used to be in the past. Does that make sense?
Yeah, I think that's good. You know, I think it's okay. I think it's even healthy to acknowledge hurtful things that happened in the past. And there's this great BYU devotional by Elder Holland, where he talks about, it's called "Remember Lot's wife." Where he talked about the danger of living in the past. You know, we learn from the past, we look at the past, but really, we need to be focused on the future.
Yeah. So I guess I'll just take this as a way to acknowledge something that's happened in the past actually, like the most recent past, which was the removal of this homosexual behavior clause in the Honor Code. And I, if it's okay, I can I just want to talk about how that affected me and my decision to go back.
Yeah, of course.
Ben, could you kind of just explain what happened first, for some context?
Yeah. So at the on the same day that the church released a new handbook that BYU also released a new Honor Code that had been approved by the Board of Trustees. And that that new Honor Code took out the homosexual behavior clause, like those two paragraphs. And so that led to some confusion about what it meant when that when
that was no longer a policy. And then two weeks later, the church Commissioner of Education, Elder Paul V. Johnson, sent out a letter to the whole church educational system, so all church educational students, and faculty and staff. And in the letter, he said that homosexuals same... what was it? Same sex romantic behavior is a violation of the Honor Code. And so there there were these two weeks where since the homosexual behavior clause was taken out, people weren't quite sure what that
meant. And then Elder Johnson specified that it meant same sex romantic behavior is not in line with the Honor Code.
Yeah, so I was I was watching this unfold. And initially, when this cause was removed, I was very, very grateful. Because I was like, Well, first of all, it's going to remove a lot of this paranoia on campus, and just help people feel safer. But also, I was like, thinking about how cool it was that like, good cuz obviously, I mean, I interpreted it that way that like gay students could date just like a straight student. And, to me, I was just like, Oh, that's great.
You know, that'll be like, just a safer environment. So people don't have to do things in secret. Like I said, secret made secrets make you sick. And I was just really happy for LGBTQ students on campus, that they would have, like, you know, just be able to feel like they have more options. And then, so I was feeling great and feeling really good about my decision to go back to BYU.
And then you wrote an op ed in the Deseret News.
I wrote an op ed in the Deseret News. Yeah. And I was just--look it up. It's very good. I was just, I was really grateful. And I thought it would remove a lot of the stigma and issues on campus. And then two weeks later, it was reversed. And I was so upset, I almost never have been more affected by something like church, gay school related, it was really, really difficult for me, and I almost pulled my, like, I almost pulled my eligibility as a student, I was just gonna say,
No, I'm not going there. And I, and it was so weird, because like, because I mean, I'm pretty vocal and open and have written that article, some news stations were calling me to try to get my opinion, I just turned off my phone for two days, because I was so mad. And I didn't want to, like, say something off the
cuff. You know, it was interesting, because as I sat in that and watched what w s happening, I was still upset a d angry and exhausted and fe t overlooked and questioning w y it took so long for the chur h to make this verification. But I also saw something differe t that I've never seen before. I saw people talking about it a d reaching out. So I turned on y phone, and I had probably 0 texts from different peop e asking me how I was doing li e, like, "How are you feeling?
Are you doing okay?" expre sing support. And then I we t on Facebook and Instagram and saw that people were kind of like coming together. There wa like this ally community th t was rallying around LGBTQ st dents and saying, "You're safe h re. We want you here." And I d never seen that before. So I think well, that was someth ng that was like really traum tic and challenging for m to get through. And also kind f like, exposed this beaut ful ally community at BYU and w thin the church. That made
e really hopeful. And those pe ple--like that visibility--hel ed me feel like I could go back to BYU and it would be a positive experience and I can ust add to that unity that w
Yeah, after after this happened. I had a student approach me from from my calculus class. I assumed he was straight but he came in, he asked me about the situation. just wanting to understand a little bit better how this had affected the LGBT community on campus. And that was something that I thought was was really great to just just to see the straight students reaching out looking for understanding. And I, I saw a lot of that I think I think that there was a lot of people who gained a better
perspective. After all of this. They're trying to understand how this affected us LGBT students on campus, you know, the pain that that it caused, because I think a lot of people saw this and thought, "Oh, this just kind of set things back to the way it was before." And kind of overlooked the fact that there was so much pain that that happened over the course of this reversal.
Yeah, and I think that's really important to acknowledge that. Now, whether you agree with BYU stance on same sex romantic behavior or not, it was something that was really painful for a lot of people. And I remember reading that letter from Elder Johnson in my office, and just sobbing, like, I was like, put my head down, and I cried. And I went and talked to my boss, Kevin Utt, who was the
Honor Code director. And I remember telling him about this experience I'd had years ago, when I was living in Tucson, one of the times I was close to leaving the church, and I remember just attending church and just being like, but I was like, so mad that day and just like being at church just hurt. And it was hard. It was painful. And as soon as Saturday was over, I was just going to head home. And my friend was sitting next to could tell I wasn't
okay. She leaned over and said "Are you okay Ben?" And I said, "No, I am upset. I'm leaving, I'm going home." And she was the primary president. She said, "Why don't you just come to primary with us Ben?" And so I went and sat and sang primary songs for two hours, and it just like, healed my heart. And I felt God's love and felt the spirit and that just like really healed me. And I was saying to Kevin, I said, "There are so many students were hurting today, like who's gonna invite
them to go to primary? Who's gonna make sure that they're okay?" And so I made sure that over the next couple days, like anyone who needed just like, be in pain, and just like, come talk to me could come and talk to me, at a number students come my office and yell at me and cry with me. Because I just felt like it was so important that people had a place to go. And Kevin and I have met with dozens of students together, just hearing them express their feelings, and letting them talk
about what was going on. And after every single meeting, Kevin always asked me every single time he said, "Ben, like, did I do that okay? Like, what can I say differently? What can I say better?" Just making sure that he was in a place where he was making sure that all students felt welcomed and loved and, and Kevin is willing to talk to any student, any current student, not someone who's not a current student, because he has
like a job to do. But any current student who wants to come talk about the Honor Code, he is willing to have a conversation.
I like how you said making sure that people feel like they have a place to go. I don't know how that wasn't in the past. But I think moving forward, there is a place to go at BYU. There, there are ally communities. I mean, all three of us are there. We're all gay. There's a group called USGA, which is like LGBTQ resource, like unofficial student group. And I really believe it's possible to build your own kind of like subculture and sub community at BYU. It takes a
little bit of effort. But I think that is, you know, necessary in any, like larger culture, like you can adapt it and create an environment where you are safe and where you are comfortable. I think it's very possible. And I'm really grateful that I was able to do that, because BYU gave me some of the most incredible experiences of my life.
And there's also the Office of Student Success and Inclusion, which this last year started doing LGBT programming. So they had a Christmas party, they had some "get to know you" nights, they had a "reconciling faith and sexuality panel" that I participated in. And I don't know what their programming is gonna look like this year with the pandemic, but the the Office of Student Success and Inclusion is, is working to make sure that that LGBTQ students feel like they have a place to belong.
Yeah, I think that's, I think that's super important. I think it's super important for students to be able to connect to people, whether it's through the Office of Student Success, and Inclusion, or through USGA, or just through through friends that you meet on campus, just to be able to build that sense of community to have people that you can talk to especially when complicated and traumatic things happen like this, this Honor
Code issue. It is absolutely vital to have that, that support system.
And if there are students who were concerned about coming to BYU, like, it can be a painful place to be, it can be tough, but I like I love BYU, I do. Like I spent so much time there. Like I love it. It's my home. There's nowhere on earth I'd rather be and if you want to come to BYU, like, you can always come talk to me. And there will be many people who are willing to support you.
BYU also has the best mascot.
And a great mathlete team.
True.
Alright, Michael, thanks. Thank you so much for coming and we appreciate you sharing your perspectives and for being a great faculty member mathlete coach and openly gay faculty member.
Thank you so much for having me.
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Especially today.
Especially today. We are not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.
You've heard three perspectives today, and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you'd like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time...