Welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.
And I'm Charlie Bird. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to consensus, but simply sharing our perspectives.
Today's question is, should I go on a mission?
Charlie and I are not terribly diverse. We share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both went to the Provo MTC to start our missions, and we both studied in the building 18M.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, Ben's MTC training was eight weeks and mine was only six. So Ben, I'm sure you are much more familiar with the ins and outs of building 18M.
I am. Well, back then they made us go to the MTC for eight weeks, because they thought we needed longer to learn Spanish, so I probably did. I was really bad at it.
Did you like the MTC?
I loved it. I absolutely loved it. But I was also super scared to go to Mexico. So I think it was just like, I'm on my mission. Yay. And I'm not in Mexico yet, which seemed really scary.
I also really loved the MTC It was so cool. It's weird. It's like weird culture. And you're kind of in this bubble, but I really loved it. And I met some really good friends.
Well, after like two weeks, it's like there was no other life besides that, like your whole life has always been there.
I got super stir crazy though. Like I wanted to leave and just be out in nature. But I couldn't.
I didn't I was happy where I was.
Those were my qualms.
Yeah, also. So not only did I study in 18M, but the the classroom we had was one of those observation rooms with like double mirrors. Like we could like see through.
Yeah.
And had no windows and we spent all day in that windowless room.
Oh my goodness.
Then after my mission I taught in a classroom across the hall from that room.
Bless you
For three years.
I wouldn't have been able to do it. I need a window.
Yeah. Well, there you go. I had no windows just the window of my soul of the world.
Oh, well. We would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. So today we are joined by Sarah Langford. Welcome, Sarah.
Thank you.
So Sarah, tell us a little bit about yourself.
I'm from New Jersey, second oldest of six. I'm a bisexual woman married to a gay man. We've been married now for six and a half years. The reason maybe why you asked me here today is missionary work has been a really important part of my life for a long time, personally and professionally. I mean, some of those things include, I spent five years five and a half years at the MTC.
So more than Charlie's six weeks.
Yeah, you know. And it wasn't just because I was really bad at learning a language it was, you know, I was working there. And it's been wonderful. And I really feel like that I've tried to apply the same principles of like purpose to other areas of my life.
So Sarah, as you got to the age where you would have gone on a mission? What was going through your head? Like, how did you make the decision to go or not go?
Going on a mission was something that I always wanted to do. Both my parents served missions. I grew up in New Jersey. And so it just missionary work seemed a part of who I wanted to be and where I wanted to go. And it was only going to be a matter of time before I can make it official by getting a name tag. You know, I don't I never thought about becoming a sister as much as it was getting a name tag. And let's see, back in 2012, I was working hard. I did my interviews. And then in August
that year, I met Brandon. And after a lot of deeply personal wrestling, I received like the very strong answer that I needed to stay. And it was a very painful thing for me because it felt as if all the things that I wanted to do. were connected to that. I knew that I wanted to work at the MTC both my parents taught there. And they were, it was something that I wanted to do it's something--I'm going to be school at BYU, it seemed like the MTC teachers were just like, the greatest people ever.
That's not wrong.
Right? But I just, it seemed like great. I am shutting the door on all these other opportunities. I felt like I was maybe disbarring myself from ways to contribute. Because at every church meeting I went to it seemed like I heard as a part of the introduction or as a part of the story: and they went on a mission And they went on a mission and then this meant that and it meant that... And like agency is really important. But more important for me with that process was like my relationship
with the Lord. And I am grateful that I had a relationship with the Lord enough where He could be honest enough with me to tell me that this was not how I was going to serve my mission.
Even though that was a hard thing to realize. You knew it was the right thing.
Yes. I did.
How about you, Charlie? How did you decide to go on a mission?
Honestly, part of it was culturally based. I was just always expected to. That's not why I went but that's why it was planted in my head. Like Sarah was just saying, like you grow up in this culture where missionary work is promoted and considered beautiful. And people have these incredible experiences. And it's a way to get out and see the world and connect with people and learn.
And then as I was always kind of like, actually getting older turning like 17-18 this is I actually went on my mission before like, right as the age change was happening. And so I was still planning to go when I was 19. It kind of turned more into a personal thing. Like what is my belief set and what is my relationship with Christ like?
And as I dug into to that I felt more and more called to share that with other people by serving a mission that was just a natural way to share my beliefs and my testimony with others.
Yeah, you know, for me, there was no question I was gonna go on a mission. My parents were both converts, and the missionary who baptized them, Alan Olson, has been a friend of theirs ever since. And so I've known Alan and his family and his kids are like my cousins. And I know how much the gospel means my parents. And so my whole life, I thought, I want to find Buzz and Jenny Schilaty, like people who are kept from the truth just because they
don't know where to find it. And so I was pumped to go on a mission like my, my availability date was my birthday, or the day after whatever it was, like I went, as soon as I could, I was just pumped to go. Did your orientations have anything to do with your decisions to go on a mission?
Not for me personally. I mean, the story around my orientation is pretty different, I think. And I just I think, as the two of you were talking, I feel like you need to own a little bit quite a bit of like privilege within the church. I don't think that women get to claim privilege very often in the church, right? But I think in this case, I can, right? Because there is like an expectation and the mandate to the young men, right? About how every worthy young man needs to
go on a mission. And for me, there was quite a bit more little wiggle room and not quite as much institutional expectation as there would have been on the two of you when the two of you decided to go. And so I just think that's like an important qualifier there. And as far as my orientation goes, like, for me personally, No, that wasn't a part of it. It never occurred to me that that would be some sort of disqualifier to serve.
Yeah. How about you, Charlie?
Definitely. I would say definitely, yes. As I was graduating high school, I was very aware that I had, that I was attracted to men. And that was really scary for me, because I didn't know what that would do. As far as my mission was concerned, I had so many fears, one of the main fears was just like, am I gonna fall in love with one of my companions? Like, I'm gonna be living with a guy and I don't have control over that. And I was really scared.
Missionary work is very, like gender divided, like, the men are with the men and the women are with the women. And that's just how it is. And so I was really worried, like, I didn't know how that was going to reflect how I would feel. I was scared that I would do something wrong and somehow be outed. And that was gonna like cause issues or drama, or have me sent home early. And in fact, most of my fears about going on mission on a mission weren't normal fears of just like, oh, where will I
be for two years? Or I won't be with my family. It was mostly rooted in the fact that I knew I was gay or back then I called it same sex attraction, I knew I had same sex attraction. And I didn't know how that would play out as an adult on a mission. I thought that my orientation would have a negative effect, a negative impact on my ability to successfully serve. Did you feel that at all?
No. I mean, I didn't really own my orientation before my mission at all. I just, you know, I know a lot of people say that, like, they went on a mission, like making a deal with God that if they serve that God would like, fix them. And I never did that. Because I just thought that's what happened. Like you serve the mission. And God makes us like, there's no deal necessary. This is what happened. So I wasn't worried because I was just part of what you do. Yes, Sarah.
So, I guess what I'm hearing is that, like, you viewed missionary work as like an LDS version of penance, you know, that it was gonna be somehow.... yes?
Totally. I did, too. That's actually so funny that you say that Ben because I never had like this prayer that I was like, here's my, here's the deal. God, I'm gonna do this, and you're gonna do it. It was like so unspoken. That's not why I went on a mission, but I was sure that that would be the outcome. Mm hmm.
Yeah, I was the same way. And, you know, they even told us like, you live for 20 years, and you give a tithe of your time. You know, it's obviously it's viewed so much as like you do this sacrifice and you get blessings for the sacrifice.
Yeah.
Did the two of you tell your priesthood leaders before?
No, heavens, no.
No. Are you kidding me?
Okay. Well, I mean, I'm curious, right? Because it seems like if you had so much anxiety around this, then it's like, well why not get a priesthood leader to tell you yes or no was-- I mean, tell me a little bit about why you decided not to?
Well, there was no way I could tell anyone because it was just a phase. So why would it tell me when this awful phase?
That's kind of what I was thinking too. I was like, if it's gonna be fixed in two years anyway, what's the point of bringing it up and causing drama?
Exactly. Then what if they told someone that someone else found out then I would die literally die?
Terrible?
Oh, no.
No, I was too ashamed to tell anybody.
We had so much shame.
Yeah, but it wasn't. I remember this specific moment getting home from my a mission, like three days after I got home and just realized I was still gay, and actually like saying to myself, it didn't work. And then yeah, that's a whole other story. But yeah, but I really thought that's how the mission works.
I mean, so when you were on your mission, though, did you share anything--I mean, at any point, did you share anything about your orientation or your same sex--not with companions or...?
Not even, no!
Never. No.
Do you wish that you had?
Here's the deal. I will say there is-- and I talked about this in my book a little bit--for me, my mission In a way I did, because a lot of my, like social conditioning was built on trying to cover up for the fact that I was gay, like, I didn't want anybody else to know. I would change the way I acted socially, and try to like, put on a more masculine front and, and not talk about things I like to just really not be myself.
Because I was afraid that someone was gonna, like, label that as girly or gay, and then, like, get to the truth, which is that I am gay. The longer I serve the mission, the more that like that social pressure fell off of me, because when you're a missionary, you're just like, a missionary. And I don't know, there's like it, like missionaries are weird, right? So, so like, members in the ward weren't like, oh, there's Charlie. He's acting girly. I
wonder if he's gay. They were like, oh, there's Charlie, and he's an elder in the ward. And so because I was living free from that, like social pressure, I was able to start being myself a lot more. So while I never really told anybody that anything about my orientation, I definitely became a lot more comfortable in my own skin, and things that I previously wouldn't have done like art and
decorate things. And just, I don't know, just part of that like, like more feminine sides of my personality, I was a lot more comfortable sharing, because I didn't think people would tag me as gay.
Right.
And as I did that, I realized that the more myself I was, the more I connected with other people, the more I was able to, like, emulate the love of Christ and, and really be an instrument and a tool in the Lord's hands. It was almost like a practice coming out for me, because I came out with my personality first, on my mission. And I think that really prepared me to come out with my orientation after my mission.
Right.
I had a very similar experience where I felt like I could just be myself on the mission, it was really, really nice, actually. Because there's no pressure to talk about girls or date or anything like that. There was just a lot of that pressure just was gone. And so I was able to just be who I felt I wanted to be or who I was.
Charlie, you like mentioned that you said that there is a kind of a safety, right? In being a missionary, so that you could be more of yourself? Looking back at it, is there a time that you wished maybe you would have been all of yourself or at least maybe have the language or the confidence or the comfortability to share this element of yourself with maybe some of your investigators or board members?
Yeah, I think so. Like, I think if I was to re-serve a mission right now, I would be so much better. But at the same time, like, I didn't know that yet, I didn't have that experience. So I can't really like retrospectively say, I wish I would have done it differently,
Right.
Because that's the experience I needed for my growth to get me to where I am now.
Yeah, I feel exactly the same. Like, I don't wish I had done it any differently or I wish I had been open about my orientation, because there's just honestly, it wasn't that much on my radar. It was just like, for those two years, it wasn't a super big deal.
Well, and the thing is, like part of what I wanted was to feel like I was in the right place at the right time. For those two years that I was serving as a missionary, like every day, I knew I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. And I was where I felt I needed to be. And so I could kind of take a break from like thinking about the future, which is something that always haunted me growing up. And like for those two years, I was able to just
really focus on the now. And that was so like, it was so nice.
I mean, so I haven't, of course served a mission since my mission. But but I have had missionary like assignments. in Tucson, I was the word mission leader in my last ward there. And I remember having to have this battle when I would go out with a missionary to teach investigators because they would like ask about my personal life. And they would ask if I was married. I thought, well, if I tell them I'm gay, then they might think that the church is
really LGBTQ affirming. And I don't want to give them a false impression that if they're really conservative, they might be turned off by having a gay person come into their house to teach them the gospel. So I kind of had this battle, do I tell them do I not tell them? And it would end up that every time I told them, and that was exactly the right choice for me in my
life at that time. And I remember one investigator we had when I was Ward mission leader, after I came out to him--just like in passing in a lesson--he got my number from the missionaries that night, and then called me because he had a bunch of questions. And we talked for like an hour. And it was just like this really beautiful experience. And actually, the day I was called to be Ward mission leader, I was brand new in this ward. I was sustained and I gave a talk and
I came out in my talk. And I learned this story later, there was an investigator at church, who was there for the first time. And he had just gotten out of prison and had a lot of tattoos. And he wasn't sure that he'd be welcomed in a Latter-day Saint congregation. And they said that when I came out, he looked around the congregation to see how people were reacting. They said all he saw were nods and smiles and that's when he knew that he could belong there.
Hmm
That's really cool.
Going back in time, I don't think I was capable of being like, who I was and what my worldview was. I don't think I could have come out. I don't think it would have been the right thing for me. But now totally.
You know what I will say though, is advice going forward? I would not advise people to do what I did. You know, like staying quiet about it and living in those fears and like kind of developing those fears by myself alone was really tough, and it put me in like a really compromising emotional
situation occasionally. And so I would not--like we try not to, like tell people what to do, but advice I give to friends who ask me LGBTQ people who are thinking about serving missions, I think you should definitely be open, because it just makes things so much easier. And then the things you're worried about, like, you can like set parameters or boundaries, and like, have people on your team, I think it's very healthy to go into a mission having your church leaders and your investigators
know your orientation. It normalizes the experience. There's totally other elders and sisters in the mission who are also LGBTQ. And like, you can be a source of like support and comfort for them. And I just think it like lifts everyone as we honor our diversity in that sphere.
I agree with that and like, from everything that you're saying, and with this, right, that like coming out is like a deeply personal thing, right? And I think this is a good opportunity to do a little bit of like, Mormon myth busting right now at this moment, right? If we're talking to young Ben Schilaty, and young Charlie Bird, we can tell them a few things. First of all, like your orientation, and your gender identity does not disqualify you from serving the mission.
Definitely.
It does not disqualify you from being able to contribute in powerful ways. It does not disqualify you from being able to connect with people and looking at like Charlie's experiences and things that he's learned, I think it'd be perhaps safe to say that bringing our whole selves as much as we can to whatever it is that we're doing is always a
good thing to do. Right? And when I have been looking at the missionaries that are most successful in the field, when I say "most successful," I'm not talking about baptisms, I'm talking about people that look happy, people that are genuinely happy and like successful, it's that they are bringing all of themselves. There's some really cool things that are happening in missionary work right now
because of Coronavirus. And if you go on any social media platform, you can see these really cute and I maybe shouldn't use "cute" these really wonderful videos of these missionaries, using the tools that are given to themselves and finding ways to let their personality be represented in that because they can't be with the people. And maybe they're singing, or maybe they're dancing. I saw a set of sisters is dancing, and it was like
beautiful and sacred. And as I'm looking at that and kind of trying to like segment out this phenomenon that's happening, right? Because I see the response, you know, they have hundreds of thousands of views or people are connecting with them, not just members of the church. They're like, Oh, it's because they woke up that day as Elder Smith or as Sister Jones and said, "What do I like? What can I bring to the table? What do I think and believe? And what does that have to do with my
work now? You know, what are the skills that I have?" And I think, for me, as I observed, like the power and importance of like great missionary work, it's understanding how to direct that and having the faith to believe that the Lord will sanctify that. But like, I would think it would be incredible to see a young Ben Schilaty to be able to say like Elder Ben Schilaty like, yeah, to bring all of himself.
I think that would have been such a beautiful experience. And just, that just wasn't the world I could have lived in.
Right. I do think that's the world people can live in now, though, or at least I hope so. So I'm hoping that this new generation of missionaries, like 17-18 year old LGBTQ people can do that and really own who they are and connect with people.
Yeah. And I think that the danger would be if we felt like we couldn't or shouldn't bring our whole selves.
Right.
And, like if I had felt that confidence, and had felt that, like even the possibility, yeah, I wonder how things would have been different? I don't know.
Can I ask you the two of you a question about mission?
Continuing interviewing us Sarah.
Well, I mean...
I love how you're the interviewer.
I am just like, curious, right?
Welcome to questions from the closet, we're gonna make you a co-host.
I would love that. I'm thinking a little bit about like the element of sacrifice in this because that's what I've been thinking about. And I know missionary work has evolved quite a bit and like people can call their families every week. And maybe this homesickness has been mitigated a little bit. Was there any element as you were approaching your missions that you're like, I'm making a sacrifice, you know, or that there's a sacrifice in this?
Yes. 100%
What was the sacrifice?
Like time, you know, giving up two years of my life. I think that was really the only thing. I mean, I love my family, but I do well, far away from them. So it didn't, I didn't, I was never really homesick on my mission.
What about you, Charlie?
For me, it was family. I really, really missed my family. I wanted to be with them. And there were a lot of changes in my family dynamic while I was gone, and that was really hard.
How do you feel like you would articulate like, what sacrifices is? Or it like sacrifice of something? It's a topic that I don't observe very many people feeling comfortable with in this space, right? I've been thinking about like, what does sacrifice mean, in this space and like, what is good sacrifice?
I have a thought about that. I was actually talking with a friend the other day about how sometimes I feel that like in order to sacrifice or in order to like, be good enough for God, I have to be sad. Maybe y'all are familiar with this and can help me kind of like put it into better words. But the older I get, the more I learned that that's not true. Like, I don't have to punish myself in order to be like pious enough to receive an added measure of spirituality to be able to help people.
Right.
Like, in fact, the opposite for me is true, like, the happier I am, the more confident I am., that's when I can actually make real difference, you know,
It's like sacrifice does not necessarily mean pain.
Right? It doesn't mean pain.
Well, I think a higher version of sacrifice would be consecration.
Right.
So like, to me, it wasn't like I was losing my time, I was giving my time. And the way that to build the kingdom, like in a way that felt that I felt called to do.
Well. And that's beautiful. Because, you know, we are called to consecrate our time and our talents and our efforts to building the kingdom of God. And isn't being yourself, as you do that, like how you fulfill that covenant? Like, if my time yeah, that's, that's whatever, however long the mission time is for, I guess, lifelong, you know, because we're always supposed to have a missionary mindset. But like our talents and our efforts, there's such a personal
component to that. And if we're stifling ourselves in a way, or like trying to lie or pretend to be someone we're not, we are not able to keep our covenants.
This isn't about being on a full time mission. But I've had this really interesting realization as I've like, in my 30s, since I've started blogging about being gay, and I realized that the main--and I give, you know, firesides, and 5th Sunday lessons about same sex attraction--and I found that, like, my orientation has become the main vehicle through which I bear my testimony. And like, what a weird turn of events I never would have expected that
to be. But but you know, you're exactly right, Charlie, like when we bring our whole selves, that's how we're actually able to consecrate our lives to God.
I love that. I mean, I look at the shift again, from the transformation from sacrifice to consecration. Something that's so incredible, something that I mourned quite a bit in not serving the mission is that there would never be another time and another opportunity that I could imagine, where for 18 months, I could devote my entire life, my purpose to helping other people.
And my version of missionary work, it's not what missionary work always looks like, my parents served, my dad served in Argentina, my dad, my mom served in Spain, and they had these incredible stories of walking
along the road. And like feeling prompted to talk to someone to carry their bags, or, you know, rake their yard and just how these like acts of service first being led by, you know, developing like an eye to see Christ reflected in all people and then having, like, the extra calling and mantle to meet that was just so incredible to me. And just like because I, as I considered like this mantle, just like, wow, like, I want that so bad. Like, I want to be
able to do that so bad. And it was so hard to say, you know what? No, like, this isn't it's not what Heavenly Father wants me to do. And...
So Sarah, part of your consecration was not doing this adventure that you had heard about your whole life.
And I think that maybe like, one of the great things that came out of this maybe was, I needed to get a testimony of my ability to contribute, even if my whole life couldn't be about contributions, right? But to maybe find a way to make my whole life about contributions that are that maybe like a simpler way to say this is that I didn't have to, like, leave my home to serve, but I could like
serve in my home, right? Or I could serve at my job, I could serve in the grocery store and to say, okay, like, if I'm not going to be given that mantle, then I'm going to do what I can to develop the eyes to see the people that are around me and the opportunities that are here. And as I look at that, and I stand back and look at the 100 yard perspective of my life over the last nine years, since I didn't didn't make that decision, my decision not to go, I can see where that mindset
came from that. You know, where I said, Okay, if I'm not going to do this, then this is what I'm going to do instead. Because I want a little bit of that if I don't get to have that for 18 months. And so that's something that I am when I refer to this mantle, did you feel that when you were on your mission?
I did. I think I did. Yeah, I so the thing is, one of the things I was so worried about was being unable to control my sexual appetites as a missionary, I was so worried about that going in. But one thing that I realized was, and I think part of this was just like the sacred nature of my calling, like, I wasn't focused on dating so or like men or relationships or any of that whatsoever, like
most of the time. And so whereas like before, I was giving it like this crazy amount of emphasis on like, "Oh, no, like, I'm gonna be with guys all the time. And then I'll probably be attracted to one of them." Like, I was thinking about it so much.
When I was actually on my mission, and was around attractive guys or was around someone who like I had a crush on I was able to, like, still focus and like, that wasn't a distraction to me because God didn't let it be a distraction to me like it wasn't supposed to be during that time in my life. And I didn't want it to be and I felt like I had Like, a greater capacity to avoid distraction, actually just in general, you know?
Wow.
Yeah, I'd say that's true for me too. I mean, I had a couple companions that were very attractive, who I would say definitely had little crushes on. But it wasn't really a big deal. It really wasn't a big deal at all.
And that's not the only way I felt the mantle of my calling. But it's just in that way, it was very comforting to me, because that's one of the things I was most scared of.
Yeah, I served my mission in Chihuahua, Mexico, which is right on the US/Mexico border. And I spent half my mission Juarez, which is across the border from El Paso. It's one of the most dangerous cities in the world. And I was like, I was never scared my entire mission. Then when I went back to visit, I was walking around and I was like, What am I doing? I have to get inside of a house, right? Like, I can't believe I just walked these streets nonchalantly for two years.
Well, and it's beautiful when you're consecrating yourself and you're studying and you're and you're in that mindset of how can I help other people? I felt like I had so many experiences where my thoughts were added to and made better by the Spirit and my ability to communicate like (a) in Spanish, like gift of tongues, but also just my ability to communicate and really, like use words that connected to somebody's heart. And so there was so much of that, that that I just felt
really confident. I felt really confident. Yeah.
Charlie, how did you handle those feelings for your companions?
Thanks for bringing us back to that. Because this is something that I want to say like, people have crushes on their missions, like elders have crushes on sisters and girls in the ward. And like, it's not like the greatest thing, but it happens a lot. And if you are gay, or lesbian or bisexual, like, it's, it's normal to just be a normal person, like, like, these orientations aren't weird. It's a normal orientation. It's natural. So like, looking back, I was like, that's totally fine.
If I had a crush on a companion, like, it's equally as fine as somebody else having a crush, like my companion having a crush on a girl in the ward or something. And like I said, That's not like the greatest thing. But like, it's not like I was pursuing a relationship or like, being, like, physically aggressive or anything. I was just like, oh, this is how I feel. Let's see what I can do, like, to make sure that this doesn't inhibit my ability to serve, you know?
Yeah, definitely. What would you have done if like a companion you like said, Charlie, I've got a crush on you?
Um, I don't know, I never had that experience. I'm not sure exactly how I would have responded. But if that happened, now, I would just be honest, and I would probably tell the mission president and be like, yo, here's the deal. Like, we're both gay. Here we are in this apartment alone. Like, I don't know if that's something you're comfortable
with. And if I was comfortable with it, in like confident in our ability to still like, keep mission rules and follow guidelines and serve, I'd be like, Hey, we're comfortable with this, like, it's fine. But if I wasn't hopefully, I would be honest. And just put it out there. And like, one thing I didn't know going in, I figured that, that missionary work would be 100%, like, outside forces acting on me. But like, there's always ways to empower yourself in this situation, you know what
I mean? So like, if it's not working, and it's causing a lot of stress, or anxiety, like you can talk about it and, and change your scenario or situation.
Yeah, definitely. I think this is important. We have crushes and feelings, and we can't turn that off, that doesn't go away when you get married, even, you know, we just have these feelings. And just, I think just accepting that and being able to just live with the feelings. And also choosing how to act, I think is a really powerful way to live. Sarah what wouldve happened at the MTC, if a missionary told someone that they had a crush on their companion?
I don't know, I can maybe like, hypothesize for a little bit probably like a branch president would be called and then district president, that is over the branch president and there'd be a conversation. And I think, again, the primary question, I can't like make a promise for how everybody's going to act always right? But like, the primary question would be, well, what did you do? And if there was like, "We didn't do anything," they probably would say "Well stop stressing out
about it." No, like, from what I've observed. I think that's probably what people would say. And I think that that's what our Priesthood Leadership is being trained to do more often, which is, well, what are your actions here? Okay. Don't like condemn yourself before something has happened.
Yeah. And a lot of my fears before going into my mission, were just fears, you know, like most of them didn't come to fruition. In fact, you know, what was one time I was I was with a companion and we just been getting along so well. And I was like, You know what, I hope this is what my marriage is like, like, two people working together, helping people doing
well. And it's so funny looking back, like, like previous to my mission, if I would have seen my future self thinking, "I hope my marriage is like this relationship with me my companion," I probably would have freaked out. But in the moment, it was just like a very, like, nice spiritual thing. And I was just like, this is this is unity. This has companionship. And it was cool. And it wasn't
like sexual at all. It was just like, I hope that one day I have a relationship that's lasting in my life that is as meaningful to me as this one that I'm in right now.
You know, I had a very similar experience where I was learning Spanish, of course. And so I would, at night, I would get like old copies of the Ensign in Spanish, I would read them out loud to my companion. And he would like, correct me and teach me words and stuff. And it was so fun. Just like so fun just reading the Ensign together every night. I thought, when I'm married, I want to do this. This is really fun. It just is bringing us closer together. And it's just enjoyable. Yeah.
I'm thinking right now. I'm kind of going back to the beginning of some of those questions of like, should I go on a mission? And I'm talking to this person right now in front of me, I am... just give me a little bit of congratulation around thinking about the question a bit. And not to say that the three of us didn't think about what that question is. But I think that there's something to be said, for someone who's willing to study out the question quite a bit
more. I've been thinking a little bit about the role of agency when it comes to this, right? Because at the end of the day, you can choose to go or you can choose not to go. Right. And as you were looking back at how you did your decision making around this, you've talked a lot about the reasons why. Were there reasons why you wouldn't have done it?
Honestly, no, it's all I ever want to do since I was a kid. Like all my life was leading up to that, I can't imagine how I wouldn't have gone.
I'm thinking about this. My initial reaction was no, but at the same time that I think there was a small part of me that felt forced into it. And, you know, there's, there's like these lore, and there's stories about like, it's better to come back in a coffin than to come back early. And I'm just like, no, that's not what... I kind of fed into that, you know what I mean? And I like I felt
like I had to. And when I was in that mindset, that's when it was most difficult for me, you know, when I didn't feel like I was actively exercising my agency and making like a conscious decision based on my own personal desires. You know, just like with stigma, and in current culture, like, I think you should do what's like, healthiest and best for you. And if you decide not to, like, I hope that that's like, an honest decision that you can feel
comfortable with. And, and I would hope that we can create an environment where people don't judge or berate or look at someone differently because of that. Or if you're out there and like it's not working and like it's taxing to your like mental or spiritual or emotional health that you can make make adjustments or, or be okay with, like changing your life path in a way that maybe some people would judge but just doing
what's healthy for you. And so, while like 90% of me was like, Yes, this is what I want to do, that 10% was a little bit damaging to me.
At this time, when I'm remembering the very beginning of my mission, because thinking about going on a mission. I was so thrilled. And then I got to Mexico. And I remember thinking there is no way it is this hard for everyone like this is too hard for everyone to have experienced this. Because I didn't understand anything. I wasn't used to the food, I was sick all the time, I got a sunburn my first day. I remember walking like by these train
tracks on my very first day. And this train came by and just blew this cloud of dust at us. And then I and I had like, I could feel the dust on my teeth. I looked my watch. It was like 1pm. I'm like, it's not even halfway through my first day of two years. I'm not sure I can do this. I remember thinking, how do I get reassigned to Idaho? Like, like, like, how do I get out of this? I was like, if I like get a toe run over and there's a toe ,can I like go home honorably and not have to
serve? But that didn't last for very long. But there were these fear based responses. And whenever I have a fear based response, I know I'm not like like, that's not the right choice to make. But it's still a very natural way to feel like I just like how do I get out of this? And then as I push through that and reconnected with why wanted to be there, you know, over months, and probably the
whole two years. God, like it was a beautiful like it was, it was one of those formative experiences of my life. Definitely not the best two years, but very good two years.
So something that I like picked up from both of you guys, right? It's just and I think this is probably a pretty common theme. Regardless, just for all decision making. Fear is not a good reason to do something, or perhaps even not to do something. There's some fear that keeps us safe that like, when we're talking about doing something like going on a mission, fear is not a good
reason to go. So for example, if I don't go on a mission, then my ward is going to think that I'm unworthy or I've committed some terrible sin. That's a fear. So I think basically rejection from a ward right or rejection or assumptions about me or myself if I decide not to go.
Yeah, no one would marry me.
Hmm.
They still won't marry me. But...
That's not true. You just won't say yes.
For me, I think I had a fear of my decisions affecting somebody else's salvation. Like, if I didn't go then someone wouldn't learn about Christ. That weighed really heavily on me.
Wait a second, you thought that like, if you didn't go there was someone somewhere that would not be brought to the kingdom?
Yeah, that I will, that I was supposed to, to connect with?
No, not just that, but we're explicitly told that.
Yeah, we are told that, like,
There's even that whole like... that, like....
There are people that only YOU can get. So I was really nervous. Like, if I don't go then like, whoever that lady is in Southern California, like this nice grandma that I'm not going to connect with, and then she'll never get baptized, and she'll lose out on a lot of like, blessings, you know, like I was worried about that,
Well, we were told, if you didn't get up at 630, then you wouldn't have the spirit with you. And then that day, you wouldn't be able to teach anyone by the Spirit. That's I was explicitly told that.
So was I.
Which I agree is crazy!
Sarah educate us.
First of all, Okay, first of all, we know right, that no man's salvation or woman's, like represent salvation, depends on another person. It just doesn't. That's not how it works. Like, what's the point of the atonement? And also, Ben, I know you know the answer to this question, tell me the Second Article of Faith.
That men will be punished for their own sins,
And?
Not for Adam's transgression.
What up? So thereby, like, I think it'd be fair to us to go to the conclusion that there is no one waiting for you to save them. And there is nobody that whose entire salvation in the history of their eternities who will be limited because you decided not to go on a mission like or if you decided, if you were a little bit lazy that day and got
45 you just like don't have that kind of power. Like I hate to say it, but you guys just aren't that special. Like you're so special and wonderful. And I want you to think you're so... Heavenly... like thank goodness for the Plan.
Calm down.
Like settle down a little bit you guys that's just not... Let's oh my goodness, Charlie, that's so beautiful. And also, I'm just like....
It's like sad though.
I just want to hold young Charlie and be like, Oh, you have like such good, like beautiful intentions, that no one--The Lord is not asking you to have--that's so hard.
Yeah, I totally forgot that. I felt that way.
It's been a long time since you served a mission.
Yes. And I've been home more than 15 years.
I've only been home for six. I feel compelled to share the story that I've never told anyone and I'm really embarrassed by it. But here we go. I'm making it public.
Yay.
Um, one of one of my biggest fears for going to the MTC was like the showers in the locker room situation. I was terrified. I was mortified. And I like combed the internet for like pictures of what they looked like. I had heard jokes about like the circle of life, the Tree of Life, the Tree of Life, sorry, the circle of life, the Tree of Life, which is like six to eight showerheads around a pole just like regular locker
rooms showers. And I was just like, like I said, I was so nervous about like, keeping my sexual appetites in check. And I was just I was like, wickedly stressed about this. Like, I remember flying home before I opened my mission call. And I was like, having a panic attack on the floor of Salt Lake airport, because I was so nervous to go to the MTC and take a shower. And I was just so so nervous. And I was praying, and I was trying to figure out
what it looked like. But I didn't know because like, who goes into the MTC and it's not like there's two whole MTC showers. I was so scared. And, and I was like, "God, like, please help me I don't know what to do." So it's day one. It's day one of the MTC so weird, because you like meet these strangers, like people that you have to like, be around....
And they put these orange dots on your name tag. Make sure you have your shot records.
And so we're meeting all these people that we're going to spend time with, and I was just like, so worried that someone attractive would walk into the room, and I was gonna have to take a shower with like, "Hot Elder." I was so nervous. And then classic, of course, like this guy walks in and he's like 23 a professional bodybuilder. He's like built and like perfect jawline. And I was like, "Oh my gosh!"
My worst nightmare.
I'm like literally trying to figure out how I can jump out the window like I have to sleep right next to him in our like bunk bed situation and like we have to shower together and I'm so so nervous, right I'm freaking out. So I pretend to go to the bathroom. I ran in and I found out that there were actually curtains in the showers. So I was like, Okay,
this is good. Like, first of all like so if anyone else is like me and is freaking out about this like it's like very segregated and you can keep your privacy. Whatever it's all fine. But I was it was so funny because oh my gosh, this is--God loves me so much you guys listen to this--no this wait for it--that's not even it--so this elder was like ridiculously modest. Like he was so so
private. And one time, like about three weeks in, some of the other guys in my district were making fun of him and they like, like "You have this great body but like you're so embarrassed. Like, what do you have like a scar like a big mole or something?" And he was like, well, "I'll just be honest." And he said that right before he left, his Stake President called him and was like, "This is weird. And I don't know why. But I need to tell you this." He was like, "I feel like, you need to
be super modest in the MTC. And that, like, I don't know what that means." And so this elder was like, "He said that to me, and I felt the Spirit. And so I just made sure I was just like, always clothed, then I don't know why I'm doing that. But I am." And I was sitting there in the room, and I was like, "Oh, my gosh, like, God did that for me." Because I was freaking out so much about seeing a hot elder, shirtless or naked, I was
so scared. But like, like, even if the shower situation would have been what I was afraid of, like God had already planned for that to keep me safe. And I think like, it's just so beautiful. Like, if we tell the Lord what we need, and what we're scared of the Lord provides, like, He makes a way and He can influence people and inspire me and other people and like, you're gonna be safe, like, the Lord keeps us safe. That's my story,
Charlie, thank you for sharing that. That's incredibly beautiful, beautiful. And I love that principle that if you if there's anything about a mission that scares you, but you feel called and compelled to go, God will take care of you.
Yeah, that's a very beautiful story. And I'm just like so grateful that there is one person who had to be completely alone, so that we would never be alone. You know, and especially at a time like this, like the Lord will not abandon you, in your mission. You know, you will not be alone in this. And there'll be people and miracles. And that's so beautiful. I'm really glad that you shared that.
I still feel embarrassed. But it was a really beautiful experience. It was, it was something that like, really gave me a testimony that the God knows me.
Well, I mean, it's a thing, I'm really glad that you shared it, because like your humanity, and also, I think you followed the spirit right there, you felt like you needed to share it. So I hope whoever needed to hear that, like, finds the message that they need to in that story, because I think that's really wonderful. Your ability to contribute to the kingdom does not hinge on this one decision to serve a mission.
Like if you have a desire, and it's like sincere and good and your desires to contribute to the kingdom, like God will put you where you need to be.
There's this thought, I'm having work, like, my mission was so important to me. And it really shaped the course of my life. Like I learned Spanish, my mission, I'd been a Spanish teacher for more than a decade. And it really, it really shaped the course of my life in many, many ways. I'm so grateful I went. And because I had such a good experience, I of course, want everyone to have that great experience too. Similarly I know people who just like love their marriages and are so happy their
marriages. And they, "Ben, this is such a great experience. Like, I want you to have this experience too." There are all these beautiful experiences that we have. And I think the most important thing is is trusting that everyone will be in places and have the experiences that they need. Like I because I had a great mission doesn't mean that I need to tell everyone to go on a mission. So I think the key is, instead of saying this is my life has worked for me help people have their
connection with God. And we come back to this all the time, but but developing a personal relationship with God, and letting the spirit direct your decisions, so that you can make decisions that are based on faith and trust and not on fear.
Agency is such a beautiful part of this process. And I just think it'd be really sad if you robbed yourself of the opportunity to really think about this and consider this question because you made a decision based off of someone else telling you what to do.
Sarah, as you were talking, I kind of envisioned someone listening to this podcast, who felt like they should go on a mission then chose not to go and might be feeling regret for that decision. And there's this beautiful part in 3 Nephi, where before the Savior comes all the Nephites hear like the voice of the Lord, and He tells them you know, "How often have I gathered you as a hen gathereth her chicks? How often what I have
gathered, you? And have often will I yet gather you?" And just this idea that God gives us a lot of opportunities to do the right thing. And when we use our agency in a way that isn't in line, in line with His will, we don't lose because He will give us more opportunities.
I might not have had like the belief that like someone else's salvation hinged on my going on a mission are not going on a mission? I wasn't Charlie right? But I do think I know that I was scared that what if I was going to be a lesser Sarah, right? That if I talking about a trajectory, that, oh my goodness, if I don't go for the rest of my life, I will be less than what I could have been if I
had gone. And I have a very powerful testimony that if I had been prompted to go and I then that perhaps that I would be on the same exact path that I'm on right now. I really do believe that. I think asking the Lord that question. If you're going on a mission seems so big and scary, maybe asking the question of "Lord, where do you want me to be? Like these are my desires. I want to do good. I want to be--I'm afraid of not
being all that I can be. Where do you want me to be so that I can accomplish like your will?" God is like showing that he's loved me when I've asked that question.
Well, Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today. We're so glad to have you here. And just, you're a great friend as well. I love having you in my life.
Thank you for joining us today. If you have enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving us an Apple podcast review. And as always, please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We are not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.
You've heard three perspectives and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and your wide variety of experiences. If you'd like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time...