Welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.
And I am Charlie bird.
Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter Day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to a general consensus, but simply sharing our perspectives. The question that we're going to discuss today is should I come out?
So Charlie and I are not terribly diverse, and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both we both speak Spanish.
And we actually both have Spanish degrees from the same university.
That's true.
Yeah. But there are some pretty big differences. For example, Ben served his mission in Mexico.
And Charlie served his mission in a place that used to be Mexico.
Good old California.
So we would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. So today, we're joined by Travis.
Hi, guys.
So tell us a little bit about yourself, Travis?
Okay, guys. I speak Spanish too. Sorry I don't have a degree in Spanish.
Yeah,
There's the diversity. Right? There we go. I grew up in a farm, small farm in northern Utah, Tremonton, Utah. I'm married. I've been married this summer, we'll have our 35th anniversary.
Congratulations.
Six awesome kids, and two and a half darling grandkids.
Oh, wow.
I did come through BYU, graduated from BYU with a degree in geography. And I worked for the church at the Provo Missionary Training Center. My entire career has been actually working for the church at the Missionary Training Center. In fact, this spring will be 36 years. Since I returned from my mission and started there as a Spanish teacher.
36 years at the MTC? Wow. You've seen it all.
They're so lucky to have you.
And I thought six weeks was enough.
And Travis, tell us a little bit about your church service as well.
Okay, let's see. So, when I got married 35 years ago, interestingly, I was serving as a counselor in a branch presidency at the MTC. And so when I got married, I was on the stand. It was kind of fun, because my wife would come to church and it was in Spanish. It was a Spanish branch. She learned to bless the sacrament in Spanish. But she didn't bless the sacrament...
I was gonna say, how progressive were you guys 35 years ago?
She learned the, she memorized the prayers on the sacrament. And then that just kind of rolled into lots of opportunities of church leadership service in the church. I was about 28, when I was called to be a counselor in a stake presidency in my home stake here in Provo. That was 11 and a half years, almost 12 years later. And then that rolled into Young Men's
President, High Council. And then in 2004, I was called to be a Mission President and served--presided with my wife over the Texas Houston mission from 2005 to 2008. And got home and I was home about six weeks, and I was called to be the Bishop of my home ward.
Wow.
Keeping you busy
Five more years there, then moved into some High Council YSA stuff. So probably of our 35 years of marriage, I've probably been on the stand in one capacity or another for probably 30 of those 35 years.
Holy moly. So you've seen and done at all?
Well, no, I've seen a lot. Never say you've seen it all.
Well, it sounds like you've influenced a lot of people especially it seems like I mean, working at MTC and YSA wards and being Mission President, that's a lot of younger people that you...
Yeah, and I feel like I'm on the other side of that, Charlie, I feel like I've been the obvious wonderful recipient of opportunities to engage with a lot of young people and a lot of situations of helping and serving and contributing.
Well, I'm going to use that to kind of segue right into coming out. It seems like, I mean, I thought my decision to whether or not I should come out was hard, but in that I had a lot of pressure, but it seems like you were, probably had quite a bit more.
Oh, perspective, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So it was tough. It was a tough thing for me to not only come out about being gay, but also to come to terms with it.
Right.
I was pretty sure this--like probably most people--that I was gonna get to my grave with this. I did pretty good. You know, I made it about four decades in the closet. That's definitely not a world record. But I did pretty well. I don't think that's anything I necessarily want to be proud of, or anything, anybody ought to...
Well, I think that's a testament to just how difficult it can be when you're trying to figure this out. And there's, there's different pressures and like this process that gets you to the point of, of actually coming out is so much so different for every person, you know,
For sure. And I think, obviously--well for me, I would say--that this church service obviously made it much more difficult, you know. You you're serving as a counselor in the Stake Presidency, you know, that just, you just can't, you can't talk about that. A Mission
President, I mean, you. So I think a lot of that just the circumstances with church calling and feeling the pressure, or feeling the weight of the "what if?" if people knew--particularly while being well being in those types of assignments--definitely weighed into the decision whether I would or wouldn't. Also, at the same time, on the flip side of that, I feel like all those years of church service were a great blessing in actually helping me with my same sex
attraction. It, for one, I believe it provided a really great space and place to be with--in an appropriate and healthy way--other men. I'm really terrible at male friendships. But kind of some of these forced, you know, friendships, these forced opportunities, experiences, you know, you're when you're in a
presidency of some sort. There's always counselors, there's a lot of people, other men in particular, and here together, working together closely on a great cause, a lot of camaraderie, a lot of sweet association, but also in a safe, healthy, and appropriate way. So I think in lots of ways, there was a lot of comfort and a lot of help in that I wasn't, I wasn't completely alone. I mean, obviously, I was alone in that
secret. But I wasn't this isolated male person, without other men in my life in a healthy and productive way.
Yeah. So your calling provided you with opportunities to form good, healthy relationships, but also put pressure on you to not share personal things about your life?
Yeah, for sure.
So when did you first start wanting to come out or feeling that desire to come out?
So along this line of all these years, about five years ago, it kind of all came to a halt, like this strain of church service kind of ended. I was released from being bishop. I didn't jump right into any other calling. You know, I felt like I for like, a good 25 years had just been running really hard from calling to calling to calling. And then all of a sudden, it was just this empty period of some years where I didn't have somewhere I had to be on Sunday. I didn't have
weeknight meetings. I wasn't meeting with these other men and in presidency meetings, or Ward councils. And so there begin to be this feeling of just alone with myself, alone with my thoughts alone, with my time, alone in my head. And so I'd say a lot of these, this same sex attraction, that normally a lot of these activities could kind of keep, you know, on the shelf, because I was so busy, and they were kind of in my face--felt like it just kind of was really
coming up in my face. And I think that's what I would kind of pin it on just, you know, this downtime. This, unlike any time in period of my life related I'd ever had, I suddenly had a lot of time to think and this just kind of really rose up and was in my face.
You know, my experience was super similar, although a few years younger. When I was 23, I was taking a full load of classes at BYU, I was teaching part time at the MTC and I was dating a woman. And then at the end of that semester, she and I broke up. And I was not taking classes spring and summer term. And I was only working part time at the MTC and I finally had all this time to just sit and stew and think and that's when things started to get really hard for me as well.
It was interesting because it it started to just really be in my head, but but there was a particular part about it that I had never experienced in all those years was that, that I should tell my wife. And this was a new twist on this that kind of came out of nowhere. And it was alarming. Because I just felt like it was just welling up in me and it was just gonna, like, fall out of my
mouth. You know, have you ever been in a situation where you you're, you're worried that you might just say something crazy, or it might be the truth, you might be sitting on the truth of something and someone's talking and you want to just scream the truth but you kind of go, "No, I can't do that. You know that would be ridiculous. Don't do that." It kind of felt like that's what was going to happen happen that that this was just gonna come out to my wife and I just kind of terrifying.
Terrifying. Very terrifying. I kept saying "No, no, not going there. No, where's this coming from? No, you know, you're not going to do that." But it persisted and it and it got much, much more intense day by day to where I just really was alarmed that at any moment, it would just fall out of my mouth. And one Sunday morning, I woke up and it just fell out of my mouth, I mean,
out of my control. So I have to say, in that particular instance of coming out to the first person, I didn't come out willingly or intentionally, it just fell out. How would you describe that? What was happening that week, and that day that led it to just fall out?
I think it just was building day by day, the pressure of it and the worry and the fear and along with it, the associated shame and fear of what it would mean if someone knew. And so I think it was just broiling inside of me much, much more than it had at any other point in my life. And I think, subconsciously, maybe was this this thought that if it came out, then it would relieve this broiling, worrisome, fearsome, shameful, shameful feelings that
I was having. But I wasn't I wasn't in agreement that that was the thing to do. Or this is the time or, or anything. And so it, it was alarming and surprising.
Yeah. So what I heard you say was part of this decision to tell your wife, even if it was not a conscious decision, was it there was all this shame bubbling up in you? And that was a way to release those feelings?
Yeah, it was, oh man, I was a hot mess. But unfortunately, and and, you know, I, I couldn't have known this, that but rather than, you know, I got it out. And I have to admit, my wife was, was a hero with this. She, she took it extremely well with with incredible compassion and great understanding. And man, it came out with great, great emotion. I mean, it was this was, this was not pretty.
You had decades of holding it in.
And she just, she just listened and encouraged and reassured, and, you know, "Hey, we'll get this figured out. And I'm so glad you told me and you're great. And we're great." And...
She's just wonderful.
Yeah, just she she is a rock star, just a lot of reassuring comfort. But almost immediately, what began to set in was this, this fact that I had actually said the words, I mean, I, I said it.
It like makes it real and you can't go back.
Once you say it.
And I had no idea how much that that that that would particularly--saying that would would affect me.
And the words you said were, "I'm gay."
Yeah.
Some of the things you were saying really resonated to me about feeling shame, and everything was just building up. And for any listeners that that are wondering what it like, what it's like to feel like you're in the closet. For me, it literally felt like I was in an actual closet, I was like Harry Potter living under this stairwell, and I was cramped up and it was
dark. And I felt like before I came out, being isolated from everyone, and being alone with myself, really, almost was like a conduit for the adversary to get to me, and, and make me hate myself. And any fear or, like, hatred I had for myself was amplified when I was alone, and when it was dark, and when I was scared, and when I wasn't
letting any light in. And so the reason I ended up coming out to the first person was because finally, those terrible feelings of of just like--this is no way to live--where were outweighed by my fear of rejection. So like, the reason I wasn't coming out was because I was scared of it, that my loved ones would reject me or that my relationships would change. But I was less scared of that, than I was at forever living in this place of darkness. And for me, that was kind of my transition state.
You know, you know, you hear that? I don't know that phrase, the hardest person to come out to is yourself. And, and boy, in this particular case, that was for sure me.
Yeah.
I just I I had lived most of my life really, I think, as a major coping mechanism was denial, just just denying this, you know, or minimizing it, you know, maybe I'm a little bit gay or, yeah, sometimes I'm kind of gay, but mostly I'm not gay. Or you know, I've had big stretches where I think, "I don't know what that was all about," thinking that you were gay and then I'd have ever other times where it was just like in my face and I was just so
overwhelmed or confused. And so now having said it, now having looked at it was just more than at the moment that I could bear. I I studied a lot and learned a lot as I've kind of been through this. And recently I was reading "Co-dependent No More," by Melody Beattie and I came across this this thing she says about denial and this was me to a tee. She says, "Denial can be a gift. It gives people time to gather their resources so they can face
the truth." And, you know, that 40 years of trying to gather my resources, and I kind of think, and I believe that there was surely a spiritual aspect of this process that God was saying, "Hey, you know, Travis, we've, we've worked on this for 40 years, or you've worked on this for 40 years. And, and you've, this has really been tough to watch you. And you know what, I'm gonna help you along
here. We're gonna..." because I think had I been left to myself, I'm pretty sure that I could have got to my grave with this as a secret. But I feel like He just said, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm going to do this for you. We are going to talk about it. And I'm going to start the ball rolling. And here we go."
Now so Travis, I'm hearing you say two things right now that that being in the closet for so long was was sort of a blessing for you. It was a good thing. It was a way for you to prepare for that, for that revealing of a hard truth.
Yeah, I think so. And, you know, it's 40 years is a long time to carry that type of a burden. And, and believe me, it was, it was plenty of burden. But I can't say that it was 40 years of misery. I mean, I've had a great life, I've had a great marriage, we have six awesome kids, I've had a great career, a lot of joy, a lot of happiness. Of course, we've you know, we're like any other family, like any other marriage,
we've had our ups and downs. But underlying this was always just eating at my self-esteem, my my self-worth, in probably some of the most damaging ways. Which I believe really kind of fed into this opportunity to serve and help other people. It was kind of like, "I'm, I'm the worst of worst, I'm broken. I'm inherently bad. And part of the penance of that is the opportunity to help other
people." And so, you know, I just threw myself into what can I do for everyone else, so I couldn't or wouldn't think about myself and then underlying, hoping that maybe at the end, there will have been enough of trying and enough of good that maybe it will outweigh...
To just like make up for broken you were?
You know, how bad and broken I really am.
Okay, the other thing I heard you say, Travis, is that you feel like coming out was something that God led you to do. I had a very similar experience where, when I, I didn't really decide I'm going to come out right now. But I just had this burden on me, I just couldn't keep it inside anymore. It wasn't that I was trying to get rid of shame or let go of some release valve. I just couldn't do it on my own anymore. I just needed support.
And that was when I was 23. And, and I had tried to come out a couple friends and I kept chickening out. And then, you know, it was like God orchestrated the perfect situation. I ended up on a walk on on a summer evening with my two best friends in this quiet secluded place. And I knew I needed to tell them but I almost chickened out. But it was like God said, "I created this perfect situation for you to be able to tell them what's been going on." And that was the
right thing for me. I feel like God led me to do that.
And I think in hindsight--and I think my wife would definitely agree too--that she'd been prepared. Yeah, she'd been prepared. It was the time it was the moment. And it probably couldn't have been any better for what it was.
For what it was. I kind of compare it sometimes--I've had people ask me, "What does it feel like right before you come out?" And to me, it was almost like you're sitting in fast and testimony meeting, and the Spirit's telling you to bear your testimony. And it's like, but like, amplified by a crazy factor.
Totally.
But this, like, you're kind of like, nervous and anxious. And you know, it's something you need to do. And it feels right, but it feels wrong.
Absolutely. Excellent example.
But then once you do it, it's so much better. Yeah, you cry. Which I did a lot. The first time I came out/
And part of it too, is that it's not necessarily a one time thing. But there's all these other places. And they each carry their own particular fear and shame.
Yeah, right. Good point.
So I think, for me, it was I could tell where I needed to talk about it, because that's where I had the greatest fear and the greatest shame. Coming out really, for me was was based on--it wasn't about what people that people needed to know--t was that I needed to say it. Right?
It was more for you than them.
Oh, absolutely. Because it was it wasn't that I wanted people to know or people needed to know--I needed to not hide it. I needed to speak it, I needed to own it, I needed to say it. And so wherever I would have places where I could have this fear building, and even on occasion once in a while still and there'll be a situation that will arise where, even though I'm out pretty publicly--there'll be a situation where someone won't know. And, and I don't even think about them not knowing.
And then the occasion will arise where, "Oh, they don't know."
it's almost like a barrier between your relationship.
Or it's like I call it a bubble starts to form. This, this bubble starts to form and I start going, "Uh oh," and in my part, it's, you know, my narrative in my head, I go back in my head. And there's this shame that begins of "Oh, no, what if they find out?" Or or, "Oh, no, are they they're thinking this." And there's going to be a misunderstanding,
Reverting to old thinking patterns.
Exactly. And so I recognize that really quick now--that bubble forming, and I work as quick as I can to pop it--up to this point where I, I can't bear shame anymore.
So it sounds like your coming out with a deliberate process of combating fear and shame in different areas of your life.
Absolutely. And I have to say, without the help of a really skilled therapist, and the support of my wife in kind of really challenging a lot of the false narrative that I began to make her aware of, you know. I, I began to talk about all of this with her. She's like, "What do you think you're worthless? Why do you think you're broken? You think this?" I mean, it was
just stunning to her. And as she would respond in this surprised, and she would challenge me, and that was a really an awesome part, along with the therapist of--it doesn't, you know, somebody doesn't just say to you one time, "Hey, you know, that's not true what you just said." It takes many, many times for people to chip away at really old, strong, powerful narratives.
Yeah.
So Travis, you've had this really beautiful life, where you weren't telling anyone, where you weren't coming out? And now, a few years now, where you have been open. What's been the difference for you?
Oh, boy, it's been. It's been night and day, it's been interesting. Because on this other side, it's incredibly liberating. I mean, I honestly don't feel shame anymore. In fact, that was probably the biggest difference, I'd say the biggest difference I have felt in my life, to be mostly just really shame free.
I wish the listeners could see me smiling, you just look so relieved and happy.
I mean, I, I just, I couldn't I didn't know that I was under the weight of such pain.
I keep thinking about the imagery of this conversation. And all three of us, when we talk about being before coming out, the the words are, are dark, and shadow and shame and weight. And then I'm just thinking that the question we're discussing is, "Should I come out?" And that's how I knew, because I felt an absence of light, and goodness, and I
couldn't see my worth. And when people would talk, like, I got to a point where people would compliment me or say something nice about me and I would just completely dismiss it. Because I was so disgusted with myself.
That's my entire life.
And it just anything felt empty, you know. And so for me that just that imagery is so powerful, of coming into light and, and having God inspire us in our own ways to come out and get out of this place where we couldn't see our own worth.
And Travis, like you, I remember, I thought I was gonna take this to my grave. And before I came out publicly, or to anyone I had been journaling for for a long time. And I couldn't write my feelings in my journal, because I was too afraid that my kids would read it some day.
Absolutely.
So I had this secret journal where I kept my thoughts
I think the the most beautiful part of this journey because I didn't want anyone to ever know. And then I came out to my two best friends when I was 23. Then when I was 30, I start coming out publicly. I remember coming out to an Elder's Quorum, teaching an Elders Quorum lesson, I had not for me has been not necessarily that I needed to come out planned on doing that it just kind of happened organically. I just felt the need to do that.
And then more than a year later, I was talking to a member that bishopric and he told me that the thing he remembered most of the lesson was watching me sit down in my chair after he said, "Ben, I saw a literal weight com off of you when that happened " And and to me, like that's wh t being in the closet was lik , was having this burden on m
. And that's how I knew I need d to come out as I just realiz d that I couldn't carry t anymor publicly that I'm gay, but that I needed to get out from under the self-inflicted pain of trying to hide something.
Do you wish you would come out earlier in life?
Yeah, I think in some ways, I really do because I think it it would have obviously saved me a lot of years of pain and suffering. But on the other side of that, to be really truthful with you, Ben, I'm glad I didn't. And and here's a couple reasons why. One is sadly, I don't think I would have had the opportunities of church leadership that I've had had people known. I just think
that's the reality of that. I mean, had people known, maybe particularly over the last 30 years, I don't think I would have been called into a State Presidency, I pretty sure I probably wouldn't have been called to be a Mission President, Bishop, and, and actually, and not, you know, not to be on the martyr train or anything, but I can't imagine really much of opportunity going
forward here. And it is what it is, but there's a there's a, there's a disappointment in that--there's a cost for me, in particular, of coming out. And another cost of that, that I think looking back of whether I would have done this or not, is weighing the fact of what it's done to--not really done to relationships--but it's it's created a lot of uncomfortableness with a lot of
people in my life. And I've had to get to this place where I have to be okay that others aren't okay with this part about me. Because there's nothing wrong with being gay, there's nothing that--I just love that I can say--there's nothing bad or wrong with this. Yeah, I just love that I'm not just going to say that, but I believe that with all my heart. So if somebody else has a problem with that, that's their problem. That's not my problem. I didn't
do anything to anybody. I didn't create or cause them to feel that way. It's just where they're coming from with that information. And, honestly, it's hard for a lot of people in my life to know what to do with that. If that makes any sense.
That's really, that's really interesting, because I feel like my experience has been so different. And maybe it's because maybe it's a generational thing, or, you know, you've been living in the same place for such a long time. And I, I move a lot. And so when I show up in a new place, everyone just knows I'm gay. And so I feel like my coming out has really deepened relationships. And I actually had trouble thinking about a relationship that has suffered from my coming out.
Yeah. But I think part of it is maybe the age maybe the long term marriage or long term church service. You can you can imagine if both of you imagine just now finding out that your Mission President is gay.
I'd be so proud of him.
I mean, of course, you would, but but at the same time, you could probably imagine for some of the missionaries or whatever that that would be like, "Whoa!" Or imagine some other, you know, icon in your life or person in your life--it just doesn't fit the picture doesn't fit the, you know, the billing they're in, and it could
be a bit unsettling. I think, for some that they just don't, that's a lot more information, you know, you're seeing you guys are seeing still, you're younger, still, you know, there's not all these decisions reached in the world about what this means for you, two. Whereas I'm kind of more settled along the way. And it's a lot more I think, for people to have to sort through and trying to find meaning in, "How can you be married? Man, what do his kids think?"
They're shifting paradigms. The world isn't what they thought it was.
Yeah, it's a lot more. Yeah. "What are the missionaries thinking from his mission? What are their parents thinking? My son has a gay Mission President?" I think there's just a bit more baggage. But I think there's just a lot like you said a lot more paradigms there that...
A lot of waves .
A lot more, yeah, waves and places to disrupt a few more places to disrupt.
Travis, thanks for joining us. It was so interesting to hear your perspectives, and I think you're really brave. And I it makes me happy to see how happy you are that and it's so--I love what you said about about defeating shame and and kind of living in the light. That's really beautiful. And I'm going to take that home with me today.
Awesome. Great to be with you guys. Thanks for all your great work you're doing here.
Thank you, Travis.
Thank you for joining us today. Please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We're not trying to be prescriptive or telling you on what to think or what to do.
You heard just three perspectives today, and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time...