Live Q&A Event (Audio Recording)

excited to be here. I think they asked me to do this because they didn't want to pay anyone else.

aren't answered. We're going to post later on the website with the correlating episode that might also be able to help you answer. It might take some time, but it will be there. So let's get started with a soft one. All right? Ben, and, Charlie, what have you learned since starting this podcast?

other. And I said, Maybe I'll consider it. And then I went to church and was hanging out my friend, Deb. And I, we were passing notes back and forth during church about the podcast. I just kept thinking about it just felt like the right thing to do. And as I read my journal entry from that day, earlier today, one of the things I said was, you know, I just finished the first, the first version of my manuscript of my book, and I thought, so what is the next thing like, what is the next

thing I can do to build Zion? I thought maybe this is maybe this podcast is the next thing. And so one of the things I've really learned is, you know, we build Zion by sharing stories, and by getting to know one another's hearts and minds, and I knew that beforehand. But as we've done this podcast, I just really seen the edification of Zion as we share stories. And the other thing I've really learned is, recently, I was giving a fireside at UVU. And someone asked how we deal with such an

uncertain future. And I said something I hadn't said before, which I think is really cool, which I'm gonna tell you now. Which is when we think about the future and how uncertain it is, that often gives us anxiety, like things could be bad. And what I've learned through this podcast is the future is uncertain. But I get to see how God is going to surprise me. And this podcast is one of the most important things in my life

right now. And if my friend Lisa hadn't asked me to do this, just over a year and a half ago, I probably wouldn't have done it. And so one of things I've learned is that God is going to surprise me with beautiful things that I could have never anticipated. And so that's what I've learned.

what I was looking for. And I remember one time I was I was driving from Provo to Texas to visit family and then up to Missouri and I was like, I have like fourty hours and when we in a car by myself and I spent a good chunk of an entire day looking for a podcast that dealt with like faith and sexuality, or even just like being gay in general, and I really just

wasn't finding anything. And at that moment, it didn't like even occur to me that, like me seeing this here and like what we've created, through just Ben's idea, seeing a need that wasn't filled, is mind blowing to me. And on top of that I, what, really what I was looking for, before that drive was something to give me hope, something to give me connection, something to give me validation, something to

give me something secure. And, as I've been blessed to co-host this podcast, I've met so many incredible people that have given me hope. And we try really hard to, to have a lot of different types of guests with a diversity and range of experiences. And it's so cool to see that all of them are happy, and that there's happiness down all these paths. We've interviewed people in same sex relationships, and they're happy. And we've interviewed people who are single, and

they're happy. We've interviewed people in mixed orientation marriages, and they are happy. And it's just so cool to see that when you're authentically yourself and living according to your own values in a way that like, is faith-filled and connecting with God, you can find happiness, and it's been so necessary for me. And I'm just so humbled that we can share a piece of that with others.

is really the hardest part. And I don't so much worry about that with with the LGBTQ folks who are members of the church, because when I started my support group in Tucson, my goal was to get everyone to stay in the church, and almost no one did, in that support group, but I did, and I thought, you know, I can say stay, I can say be like me, but they're not going to do it anyway, you know, people are going to be who they are no matter what. And so I just I share my story, I invite

people to share theirs. And so I'm not so worried about people trying to think that they should be like me, cuz I don't really see that happening a ton. And I also am just so explicit about that. My big fear is for the straight people who hear my story, that they are going to think that my story can be someone else's story. And that's just not the case. And I say that a ton, like again, and again, and again and again. And I don't think I can ever say it enough, because people are still

gonna say that. And I remember a good friend of mine, I probably mentioned this before, but but his mom said to me, he told me that his mom said to him, that I am everything that she wishes her son could be. And that is just so painful. Like that is just so painful that people wishing their kids could be like me. And I don't I don't, I don't want that. So that's my big hesitation in sharing my stories. And as explicit as I am, this is my story. People are

going to do that. And I really try hard not to but I don't feel like that means I shouldn't share my story. I think my story is still valid and worth sharing. I just hope that we all can have enough humility and openness to talk to the people in our lives. And not just some public figure like me.

has gotten me to where I am. And I've been able to kind of like, be better at trial and error, I think because I'm not where I'm going to be and that's something that the well first of all, when I allowed myself to realize that I'm like on a journey and I can make choices and I can change my mind and just move wherever I want and trust God that opened up so many possibilities to me, and I feel much more healthy

doing that. But I think the coolest thing is just like I said, talking to all of these incredible people, these guests, and I've learned what the word pansexual means. And I've learned what it's like for someone to be asexual, and I've learned how I can be a better transgender ally. And I've learned about all of these like little, they're not little,

they're important. But to me, they weren't at the forefront of being LGBTQ+, because I'm the G. And that's what's always right there in front of me, like how am I going to live as a gay man in this society, in this church in this city. But by looking to other people and their experiences, there's like, so much. There's so many similarities and symmetries that I can glean from. But at the same time, it shifts my attitudes, my actions, my words, in a way that I hope can make

more space for other people. And that's been really nice.

single and celibate. And I'd said something like, I'm not a robot, I'm a human being like, of course, I want to be in a relationship with someone. And then someone emailed us and said, I identify as asexual and a romantic, I'm a human, and I do not want to be in a relationship. And I was like, Oh my gosh, like, like, I missed out this thing that I didn't see. And you know, there, there are a lot of experiences that that I don't see, because

they're not my experiences. And I try and be humble and listen, but I just do that so imperfectly. And you know, that's the thing, I want to do better, I want to be better at hearing people's experiences that are outside of my own, and just listening to them and trusting them. And I have I have a lot more learning to do honestly.

happens at church? And I said something like, well, is that something you would have said four years ago. And and the truth is that some of the things that make me mad, some things that hurt me, some things that feel toxic, are things that I myself have said, and so I try and offer people grace and time to grow. So if someone says something that they shouldn't say, or that are painful or hurtful, you know, I try and look at their intentions, and most people's intentions are

good. And so instead of just like getting someone out of my life, or saying they're canceled, now, I want to give them grace and time to grow. And there are some people who don't want to grow, who don't want to listen. And that's their choice. And maybe that relationship isn't going to be a healthy relationship for me to stay in. But I want to get those people to care about time to grow, just like I've had time to grow.

attacked, like on all sides. And it was really interesting, because people were accusing me of like, not bringing up certain issues or excusing things or acting a certain way. And I was like, I talk about that a lot. You know, they're like, you never talked about the hurtful things in church history. And I was like, I wrote, like, half of my book is about that. And like, the theme is, is that or, I don't know, it was just

interesting to me. And they were like, I don't know, they're like, it's so dangerous to like, promote being single and celibate. And I was like, we did a podcast on that where I said that, you know, so it was just interesting to me that people can take one chunk and internalize it a certain way and then make blanket assumptions.

And I think in any polarizing environment, which sexuality and religion is super polarizing there, there are like pretty defined sides that I'm trying to break out of, because I don't belong to either. And so when people try to pull me to their side, it makes like, it's like, I feel like they don't see me as a person. And if they could get to know me and have a discussion, that if I do need to be corrected, then then I want

to like I want to do better. But when it comes in like, like you are this way and you're bad, that's It's not helpful. I don't know if that helps. I'm still that hurt my feelings. I'm still not over it. Thanks for bringing it up Ben.

response. And, you know, I could have said, How dare you respond that way. And then then I'm not going home, I'm not seeing my brother anymore. But like, what, like, what a shame that would have been for our family. But it took both of us, you know, me being willing to share and him being like having the humility to listen and understand me, that really brought us closer together and brought understand

for both of us. And then my brother, he works at a at a middle school, then he started a pride club and his middle school. And when he told me about that, he said, You know, I did this, because I don't want anyone to have to feel as alone as you did. And so this is what happens when we are patient, when we take time to listen and teach people that it just ripples out into more goodness. And if we just cancel people and say, You're bad, you're toxic, then those ripples are going to stop with us.

sorry. He just won't talk to me. What do I do?

mistakes. And you know, I don't know what your relationship is like with your brother. And he might not be in a place where he's ready to receive an apology. But I would say, keep reaching out, keep keep apologizing. Whenever I talk to someone who has come out to a family member and they don't respond well. I always say that's not the last conversation, like, like, you're going to have more conversations. And so he might be in a place where he's not ready to talk or forgive now,

and that's okay. Like the relationships lasts a long time. And it's okay to be patient and to wait for those wounds to heal. I think an apology and multiple apologies can always be warranted if you did the wrong thing.

question ummm, anonymous. How can I let go of anger towards the church? I want to, but I just don't know how, how have either of you handled this? Easy question.

And as I open up a space for me to feel anger and also hope and devotion and accountability, and forgiveness all at the same time. I feel like it expands my heart and allows that anger not to become who I am, but be a driving force for me to work through doubt and push for positive change. And so I like I really feel like it's okay to be angry and there's so many

reasons that you should be. But that doesn't mean that you have to close yourself off from goodness and let, I feel like that anger can be an inspiration and a catalyst for for beauty.

it's not. And you know, if you ever go to therapy, that you often be told that anger is a secondary emotion, that is something else or feeling whether it be pain, isolation, rejection. So just like Charlie, I try to allow myself to feel those feelings. And I just, I'm honest with myself, I talk to people that I care about and about how I actually feel. And that has been really helpful for me when something painful and

hurtful happens. So when we when we talked to the beginning about, you know how this this, this podcast started. So I just finished my book, which I felt prompted to do, and I felt prompted do this podcast and the podcast came out. And I was like, Okay, what is the next thing like I did these two things I feel proud to do, what is the next thing, and the shutdown had just happened. I was spending, I ended up spending three weeks in Arizona with my friends, Kevin and

Allison. And while I was there, I just was thinking about some things that just happen at BYU before the shutdown. There was this race integration panel where some really racist comments were were made. And then the whole change the Honor Code, that was really painful for a lot of people. And I met with a lot of students about both of those incidences, and just saw the pain. And I talked to some of the people who were uncomfortable that there were

even gay students on campus. And and I was like, well, I am gay, and they were shocked to that was even possible. But I had this really beautiful conversation with a student who was like, Why are their homosexuals little at the Lord's University, and we had this beautiful, I but we had this really beautiful conversation. And and when he left, I think we

both felt super good. And so I was reflecting all the all this when I was in Arizona, and I thought I, I don't think any of this is happening because people have malice. I don't think they think they mean to hate people of other races. I don't think they mean to hate LGBTQ people. They just don't know. And I think a little education will change the world here. I thought, well, I have a PhD, maybe I'll just teach a

diversity class. And so I well, during shutdown, I I made a proposal and wrote this diversity class that somehow got approved. And I've been teaching for two semesters, I'm going to teach in the fall as well. And then once I did that, I was like, Okay, now what is the next thing? And so now I'm working on other projects that maybe I'll talk about in the future, if it ever ends up happening. So the reason I share this is, when I when painful things happen, I think, how can I create the

world I want to live in? Like, what can I do to create a world, the world that I want to live in. And then I put all my energy into that. And one of the prayers I pray the most often I say, Heavenly Father, I want to do all I can in my sphere of influence, to make the world a better place. And if you want me to have a bigger sphere of influence that's on you. And and you know, I do say that more more prayerful language, of

course. But you know, what, when when tough things happen, that's kind of my response, I let myself feel the feelings. I talk to people I care about, about how I'm feeling. And then I say okay, what can I do to make the world better? How can I turn these my energy into something productive?

people's voices. And then it was my turn, I said, Well, we don't need to create more LGBTQ diversity at BYU it's already here. Like we already have the diversity, we just don't know about it. And so we need to create an environment where people feel comfortable and confident enough for them to share their stories and be open

about who they are. And one of the best things that like some of the best feedback we get on the podcast is when someone comes up to me and they say, I'm at BYU, and I listen to you podcast, and you helped me hav the courage to come out. Yo know, I know it's not the righ thing for everybody. But i there's something that you wan to do, and we can just give yo a little bit of courage to hel you do that thing that you wan to do, like, that is a win

And I also think that one of the reasons that like body image is a huge issue, especially for gay men is the way that like, sexuality is so sexualized, like, we don't talk about as if it's orientation, like, like, spiritual and emotional and companionship connection, it's, it's only viewed like through a

sexual lens. On top of that, there's like, a lot of people's first exposure when they're gay to any type of like, relationship, or like sexuality is through pornography, because they're trying to hide things, and they can't like, go on a date and meet someone. So there's a lot of ways that like, bodies become very important, very quickly. And I think just one of one of the things that I learned from dating was that, like, orientation isn't just

sexuality. And just being attracted to someone, like physically doesn't necessarily, like equate love, like at all. And so there's a lot of different ways to like, be a beautiful person and be loved. So I'm just I guess, I'm just assuming that that question is coming from like, I'm worried to find love. But on top of that, like, I think everyone struggles with body image issues because of the images that we're fed all

the time. So like, like, for me when I honestly, I used to be so wrapped up in that, because I am sensitive to that. And like, if you like scrolled down on my Instagram, I think I'm an archive most of it, I hope. So. I used to like post thirst traps, and try to be sexy and spend a lot of time at the gym. And sometimes I feel guilty that I'm not doing that right now. Because I'm like, oh, and like writing and doing the podcast and I don't have time I'm like,

maybe I won't be enough. Maybe I can't be the coolest, most attractive guy. And I'm like, I don't know, I just don't have to be. And so as I like filter out different social media accounts, like I can unfollow people who make me feel bad about myself and, and just put myself in a position where I can see myself for my spirit, and just like recognize that this body is a vehicle for me to do good. And have a spirit. And I don't know,

is that helpful? Ben do you have any thoughts other than that you are the male image standard?

And then when I moved to Arizona, at the University of Arizona, there was this, this mandatory rec center fee we had to pay there's like hundreds of dollars every semester, and I tried to get them to take away the fee because I wasn't gonna use it and they wouldn't. And I was like, Well, I'm going to show them so I started working out out of spite and and so I made a goal that workout zero to four times a week and that is still my goal. So every week I make my goal and and it's been

really fun. Like I'm I have like 30 pounds of muscle more than I used to have. And like when I got to Arizona, and it's been it's been fun. It's also been a lot of work, but something that have been out of spite and now I just do it because I enjoy it. So I don't know what I'm saying

where I'm going with this. But I guess if there's something about you that you don't like love yourself and also if there's something that you could do better, you know, don't don't hesitate to try something new out of spite.

defined. When you dry it off, are we rubbing our hair like that Kristin? No, no, we're not. It's gonna get frizzy, you're gonna be looking a mess. You scrunch scrunch the towel. And then I just use like a Curl Cream. I've talked to a lot of different people with curly hair, you can kind of like get recommendations, I use the cheapest Curl Cream from Walmart, it's like six bucks, called Heritage, Hairitage. That's what it is. And then I just put that in, I put a little

gel in. Now this is the key. Now you gotta wait. You wait until it gets all shiny and crusty. And then you break the gel. So you just again, it's just the scrunch. It's, it's really all the scrunch. And so sometimes I'll feel like tonight, I spent a lot of time on my hair. I didn't wait because I didn't have time. So I used hair dye with a diffuser. I like dry my

hair with a hairdryer. And then I put a little bit of argan oil on my hands and then scrunched it there and it just really makes the curls pop. So...

And I would date them because I was supposed to. I actually dated this girl and we like agreed that we liked each other. We're going to date and I was like, now what do we do? Like it just didn't make sense to me? And so for someone who's who's thinking about their their orientation, you know, I don't know, maybe you might be a little bi? I don't know, but

it's not. I think it's perfectly normal to someone who was incredibly attractive, that you might not normally be attracted to be attracted to them.

reading that verbatim. So what has been the most important thing that you've learned about your sexuality?

change. You know, I can say a prayer about something frivolous, like, Hey, I'm kind of lonely. I want to have a friend today, then someone will call right away, like God answers my prayers in really miraculous ways. And so one of the things I've learned is that as much as I wanted and tried to change this, this, my orientation isn't something that

God wanted to change. And so I and I, and and once I realized that, and stopped trying to change who I was, and tried to be the best me how I was, then I really started to thrive. And so I guess one of the most important things that I've learned is, is that I was created for a purpose. And now it's up to me to live my best life the way I was created.

fully believe that he does. He knows exactly what it means to be me as I am on every step of this journey. And because of that, he can like guide me. And when I realized that I stopped being afraid of myself, and I stopped being afraid of all the ways I could fail. Because for so long, I was just debilitated by choice. And I felt backed into a corner. And it was either like it was like, be gay or be religious, like, it was a corner that I hated and stressed me out

and kept me up all night. And I felt like well, just to ramble a little bit, I remember watching a story on like, the Mormon gay website forever ago, and someone had like, left and dated for a few years, and then they'd like, come back to the church. And I was like, I wish I could do that. Like, I can't believe they get to go date and have all the fun. And, and I'm just gonna, like, be lonely forever. And I'd like I really felt like I couldn't make a choice. I

couldn't do anything. I just had to like, live in my like, strict, narrow mindset. But when I realized that Christ atoned for us to teach us and allow us to repent, the gift of the agency became so clear, and I wasn't afraid to try new things and make mistakes and just constantly reassess where I was,

and where I was headed. And if I liked that direction, and honestly, like, who knows what any of our lives are gonna look like, but I feel so confident that if I'm prayerful, and like deliberate about the way I move forward, and just trust that if I'm like, getting to a bad place, I can get back or if I'm being led down a place that I thought was scary, and I thought was bad, but it's actually feeling right, then I can do that. And I'm going to be okay.

working. But I decided I wasn't gonna give up on God. And so I kept reading my scriptures and like, I gave up on the church for like, a two day period like I didn't last that long. But I remember reading in Matthew 26, and is the story I shared in my book. But I was I didn't notice that Matthew 26 from crisis in the Garden of Gethsemane, he says that prayer father, that'd be willing to let this cup pass from me. Nevertheless, not my

will, but Thine be done. And think I hadn't noticed before as he made that same prayer three times, three times. He said, Is there another way because I don't want to do this. And then it occurred to me, it's not, it's not un-Christlike. Like, it's a Christ like thing to not want to do something too hard. And if the Savior did want to do something hard, it's okay for me to not want to do something hard. But then it's up to me to say, Okay, father, no, no, what

cup Are you offering me? Like, what do you want me to drink? And that became my prayer. My prayer wasn't How do I move forward? But like, God, like, what are you offering to me? Like, what are you offering me in this life. And as I did that, life started to get a lot brighter. And I started to find and like, like, little pinpricks of light starts showing up in my life, and I started to be able to move forward in a way that that that really got me to a thriving place, but it was, it

was hard work. And that's one of things I've really learned from from my sexual orientation is that it's a really normal thing, to not want to have the situation that you've been that you've been given to not want to play the cards you've been dealt. But it is a Christ like thing to figure out what God wants you to do in that situation. And the last thing I'm gonna mention is, I'm one of the most privileged people on the planet, like I'm a tall, white, English speaking,

educated male with hair. And, and, and the only way I'm not privileged is with my sexual orientation. That's something that I can hide if I need to. And just being a little bit of a minority, has really helped me to have a lot more compassion, not as much compassion as I probably should have or need to have. But it's given me a lot more compassion for people who feel different and marginalized, which, as I've learned, tends to be most people at some point. And I've just learned so much

about so many people. As I've opened up, they've opened up and I've just learned all kinds of things. That's been a real gift.

me. I love me. I don't need you to accept me accept me. But I want you to know if you could know me you change your mind. Something like that. I'm paraphrasing but you know, I think that if people really got to know me, they love me. Because there's not a person that I've really gotten to know that I don't love. Like, there's not some, like there's no unlovable person. And even the person who seems like the most boring or the most mean, we really get to know them, like

they are awesome. Like everyone is worth loving. And it's like CS Lewis said, you won't look into the eyes of someone that God doesn't love. And as I've gotten to know, more people, I've noticed that and really, really seen that. And, you know, I had these BYU students come by my office all the time. More often than not, I'm the first person that come out to that's happened at least a dozen times in my office and the first person that they share their

orientation with. And it's such a sacred experience for me to have this stranger come in. And trust me with this information. And, you know, I have tried to share my life with other people. And I really think that if they really got to know me that they would love me. And the other thing is, I tried really hard to be humble, I love attention. Like, I'm just a naturally prideful person who loves

attention and praise. And I have an I just been like, so intentional about how I share my story and how we do this podcast, so that I'm doing it for the right reasons to quote the Bachelor in the Bachelorette. You know, to just like, really do this for the right reasons like to make sure that it's not about me, it's not about Charlie. It's about education, and elevating other people's stories. And so I just hope that they can see like, my

heart is in the right place. And if I'm doing something wrong, if I'm hurting people, like I want to know that and I want to do it better.

complex. But I just feel like I'm taking arrows in the back hoping that they don't hit somebody else sometimes. And it's hard for me to be misunderstood. Like, I don't know what it looks like to people, if I'm like, I'm a pretty happy person, I'm optimistic. I'm positive. But like, it hurts to be

misunderstood. And that can come in like the simplest of ways, like, when I'm accused of something, I don't believe, or when I've worked really hard, and to not make it appear like I am a certain way or I believe a

certain thing. And then just out of like not knowing me, someone will just assume that based on my positionality whether it's in a gay space, or a religious space, and I just feel like, like, it's so crazy to me that in the same day, I can be accused of being like a malicious church puppet who's brainwashed and also like a servant of Satan, who's gonna rot in hell, I'm like, I, you know, and I think that just like, shows how difficult this space is. And I don't know,

that's kind of sad. But yeah, I get hurt. And I just have to keep reminding myself that like, people, like the anger is a secondary emotion to pain. And I try not to let that keep me from doing what I feel called to do. And being strategic about the way I present myself in a way that's going to build a bridge and not thrust me to either side, because I'm so sick of sides, like I can't do it anymore.

to be better. And so if people can provide us feedback, we will be better, like, we'll do our best. But we don't need to be attacked to be better.

coming from. We know better than anyone else, what it's like to be a minority and what minority stress does. And what that's further re emphasized when your own community is criticizing you or rejecting you. Again, there's nothing wrong with feedback. I just, it really frustrates me. It like hurts me as their friend or hurts me as an individual. Not all 130 of these questions were the nicest Questions. And I was cognizant of that, and I

hated. And I still hate the fact that I haven't let Ben and Charlie see all these questions. I told them that I wasn't gonna let them see an anonymous form, until I'd seen all of it. And it frustrates me that I had to do that, that in 2021, I had to do that because of a lot of people on every side of this conversation. So we just invite you to consider how you might be further reinforcing a bad communication problem.

in your sphere. And I think that that is kind as it is to be a shield to us, you know, probably just sharing your story, the stories that the people you love might do might do better than that put your energy into shielding us.

something work with a girl. And I was talking to my sister, and she was just like, something is totally off here. Like I had been on like, 11 dates with this girl. And like, hadn't held her hand or like, touched her. And my sister was like, Huh, but she didn't say anything about it. She, she just watched me for a while and was like, I think Charlie might be gay. So I'm gonna figure out the best way that a sister can support a gay brother, and I'm going to show him that I'm safe until he's

ready to tell me. And if he's not gay, then I'll be a better person. So that's what she did. And so she just started like researching and looking at blogs and stories and asking people about their experiences and became like a super powerful ally. And I had no idea. In the meantime, I'm super stressed. I feel like my family might reject me, I can't tell anyone. But Ann started doing the an approach, which was just like sending small organic messages to me to say that if I'm gay, I'm safe

with her. And the most powerful one of those came as a text to me and my little brother, and my little brother is notoriously straight. Like, follow him on Instagram. He's like, very attractive. He's everything I ever wanted to be the straight basketball star from the high school. And he just, he's just very not gay. And she, but she included us both in a group

text. And like talked a lot. And part of that message was to say, look, if you're struggling with anything, if there's anything about you that you don't like, she listed a few things just like if you're gay, or you feel attracted to your same sex at any level, and you feel ashamed of that, please know that I love you and nothing changes. And I want to help you know, my little brother got that message. It was like, cool, Ann thanks, love you too. And I got that message. And

I was like, I'm safe. And she, I just think she was so tactful. And the way she saw a potential situation and prepared herself for it and did it in a way that didn't force me or pry it out of me or make me feel uncomfortable or like defensive, but she just offered herself as a safe channel of support where I could go if I needed it. And then I did. And she was my first family member I came out to and helped me a ton as I was dealing with some of the most difficult years

of my life. So I would not ever really point blank ask someone if they're gay. But if you're concerned about their well being, that's a great way to start.

of my friends. And we were talking about LGBTQ issues in the church, and I was giving a lot of opinions and, and and I could tell this one guy thought I was gay. And I honestly I wish he had said, you know, Ben, I know a lot of people in church experience same sex attraction, is that something you've been experiencing? Like if he had said that I would have liked that would have been like such a weight off my shoulder when like, Yes, I've been wanting to share this. I haven't. But yet,

if he had said, Are you gay? I'm like, No, no, no, that's not me. And so it's very difficult. It's very difficult, because sometimes I think it's, there are people who want to talk, and I think it would help them if we asked, but I think the default should be let's not ask. Let's wait till they're ready. But if for some reason, the spirit prompts you to ask someone a question, you'll ask for their consent. Is it okay, if I ask you a really personal question? They say yes, you know, you can

really soften it. You know, there are a lot of people who are gay in the church is that something you've been experiencing? But I think for the most part, it's it's not the right thing to ask. Wait for them to be ready.

proud of. And in our culture, a lot of times someone is coming to the coming out moment with this, like, this scared, like, I'm going to be rejected, I'm going to be hurt. And they're going to be, I'm going to disappoint someone I love. But if you can just be like, just express love and make it a positive thing, like a celebratory moment that someone's willing to be themselves. That's super good, too.

the episode. And that was, there were a lot of things that I felt like we needed to share. And after that, it kind of gave me like a different view of like, what I wanted the podcast to be. And I don't know if any, if any listeners like knows the difference after Episode 37 Is there a place for me in the church or not. But I felt the difference. I felt that it's been important for me to share more of the hard things, and to

be more vulnerable that way. But but really, I we got more responses, like more emails about the episode that episode people saying I feel the same way, I wanted to be a place and fighting for that. And so that was the message I just felt like, like, like we were meant to share. And it was it was it was powerful and hard to share something that I felt like needed to be said.

time. And I always have to be like, watching to see how someone's gonna react and, and I really wants to be a safe place for members of the church who are terrified of LGBTQIA+ people and the gay agenda and those issues, I want to be like a point of entry for them, that they can feel safe and start getting the information that they desperately need. So we can start making positive change in

this sphere. But I've I'm so afraid and so conscious that, like everything I say or do could potentially be scrutinized or under a microscope microscope and push them away. And I think that experience just taught me that if I'm following the spirit, if I need to talk about something or say something, that I just need to do it and trust

God, like it's not my job. But like, obviously, I'm going to be conscious of how I'm talking and presenting, but it's not my job to fully like make someone comfortable all the time, if that means not talking about real things. And that episode kind of like led me into feeling more comfortable talking about dating, which is something that I was terrified to do because I had to book a Desert Book and I just felt crushed by like the pressures and I was like, yeah....

they should be going down. And I just think, in a lot of ways that is there a place for me in the church episode inspired me to be more authentic about my experience and talk about more real issues that, like, you know, like the do's, like, the things that everyone wants to know. But also like the things that are scary to talk about, because that's what a lot of people need. So what I wish I would have had.

and God's care for him. And it was just so cool to see like, we're talking about going on missions. And then this episode ended up being like, this is how God is watching out for me, like he is in this detail of my experience. And I've seen that happen multiple times where we're planning talking about one thing, and then something else will happen. One of our episodes in season two, ended up kind of kind of being that way, where we ended up talking about how are we going to cheer for people

around us? Like, how are we going to, like celebrate who they are, when that wasn't the question at all. And so it's really fun to see those episodes where that happens. Two episodes I really loved because they weren't conversations, I had heard a lot where the episode with Richard Bushman, who was a is a church patriarch, because I'd never heard a conversation about a patriot talking about with like to get a patriarchal blessings. That wasn't me. I thought that was really neat.

And also our episode on asexuality with Tearza. Because that's just what I was. I learned so much as we were doing that episode. And it was just so fun to like, know that other people are going to be learning as well. So those are some fun episodes as well.

digging in. And also, and I really hope that season two inspires people to go back and listen to some of the other stuff we've done, because we've had, like, really spiritual, incredible eye opening moments that are captured and I just like to think of it that, like, if you've ever had a conversation that's been so like, riveting and inspiring, and just and you wish you could like go back and rewind and, and look at some of the things like

that's what we've captured. And I feel humbled like so humbled that somehow I've been the one that was able to help capture the essence of what it's like, and the power of God's love, and the hurt and just all of these convoluted complex things that we're we're finding as we communicate with each other. So I hope that season two can continue to push the project forward, but also inspire people to go back and, and really like solidify their like allyship and their self worth.

I can't do this. And then o the on the drive home, she istened to the rest of the pisode I said, whatever if you re prompted to do do that thin . And so she's like, I guess got to do the thing. And now he's doing the thing. That's suc a cool thing. And, and so I on't know what things you gu s are gonna be inspired to do I don't know. And I'm excited to see how God surprised all of us with the cool things th

t you guys do. Multiple people h ve reached out since try both sp ak Spanish and have asked us to do episodes in Spanish. And I do 't think we're gonna do that I don't think that's our job But someone's gonna listen, an it's gonna be their stewards ip to do that. And I'm excite to hear those episodes in S anish and just subscribe o that podcast whenever it hap ens. You know, I'm excited t see the ideas that you guys h ve and the way that you inister to one another. I'm

xcited to read your emails. S me of them are very long but I o read them all. And so etimes people write me like se iously, like 10 page emails, an I just finished reading, li e, Oh my gosh, that was a lot of someone's story. And I think I' so glad that they trusted me en ugh to share that much of th mselves with me. And so my ho e for season two was that pe ple will keep feeling in pired to share them their st ries, and to build Zion that wa

. And, you know, I hope that I on't have to be the re eptacle for your story in the fu ure, that the people that you ac ually know can be the re eptacle for that. And I don't kn w how God's gonna speak to yo . But it might not be through ou podcast, you might find it bo ing, I don't know. But I'm ju t excited to see how God works hrough all of us to move the ork of the kingdom forward.

economic backgrounds. And it was a place where like, God was and you came as you were. And one of my really good friends there was dating this guy, and they were like, the cutest couple. They were awesome. And he wanted to bring his boyfriend to church. And we were talking about it in in Central Park. And I was just like, this is never gonna work, dude, like, like, what is what is your goal here? Like, there's a real, like, we're not even

sure if we can do this. Why are you going to pull this stranger into this? And he's like, I don't know. But I feel like I should. So we have this whole conversation. And he started bringing his boyfriend to church. And there was a place for that same sex couple in the church in that congregation. Like, there were no questions asked, like, people scooted down. And it was like, hey, you've never been here before. Let me show you how the hymn

book works. And this is what to expect and, and having them in our congregation made. Everyone there better. It fixed a lot of like, the hurtful things that are said. And it just like everyone was on their spiritual 'A" game and was so accepting. And I watched that, and I was like, You know what, if, like, we are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, like we are the saints that make

up the church. And there are so many ways that people don't know if they have a place, and communities and congregations and families. And we can be the, the agents for change that scoot down on the pew and send a text and support and cheer for people. And, and just like watching my friend and his boyfriend have a place in the church blew my mind. And it like gave me so much hope that like whatever my life looks like, I can honor who I am and what I

believe. And like, even if I'm going against, like social norms or anything like I can create the life I want to live. And I saw that because other people allowed it to happen. And I'm just so inspired that there's a roomful of people who want to be like that. And the people who never felt like, comfortable, or, or question whether they're worth it or whether they fit like we can show them they belong. And I'm just overwhelmed with gratitude for that. So thank you all for coming.

ton. That's when I was 23. And then seven years later, Jordan Nye that guy that I dated that had just ended, I went back to Arizona wondering how he's going to put the pieces of my life back together. And I was just not in a good place. And I got back to Arizona, and I decided that I wasn't going to hide anymore. Like I was going to be honest about my orientation. And so I met this guy playing volleyball at the Institute, and we were standing in the parking lot just talking. He's telling

me all of his girl woes. And afterwards, he said, So how's your dating life? And I said, Well, not good because I'm gay. And he responded really well. And he said, Actually, I've got Friend back in Florida where I was living, and I would love to set you guys up. And I was like, No, thank you. And then he showed me his picture. And it was Mark, like, it was a guy whose blog I'd read. I was like, Well, I don't want to date him, but I do want to meet him.

And so and so and so we started texting, and he ended up being in in, in in Arizona for work. And he ended up spending a weekend with me in Tucson. And he was like, what I'm gonna like the second or third person I didn't like gay person I never talked to about being gay, like I talked to straight people, but I just like, got to talk to him about my life. And it was just so good and healing for me. This is back when I was 30. Mark, now listen to the podcast. And he texted me how much he loves it

and says how great it is. And when the season ended, he was super bummed. He's like, I need more episodes, please start making them soon. And it was really cool that like this person that helped me so much, now was being helped by what I was saying. Just seeing that full circle. And then in one of the episodes we mentioned, I mentioned that I pay for all of this. And he said, Well, if you ever need any money, let me know, I'll pitch in some money. And so I was like, oh, we're

gonna do this live event. And I told him, I asked him if he would pitch it like 20 or 50 bucks. And he asked me how much was going to be and I told him and then he Venmo'd me $1 and then he Venmo'd me the rest of the money like he like this is sponsored by Mark. And, you know, Mark will love those applause when he watches this. He's doing the Camino de Santiago in Spain right now. But, uh, you know, I don't know how our lives are gonna

intertwine. Like, I don't know, you know, I don't know if 15 years from now we're gonna run into each other General Conference, or at the temple, or you'll be in my neighborhood. Or if I'll be renting a room, my house so you end up moving in? I don't know. Like, I don't know how our lives are gonna intertwine. Maybe we'll never meet. I don't know. But I know, there's something to this, like there's something to building

community. And I'm just so grateful that you guys are part of the questions from the closet community. And this isn't something that even a year and a half ago I would have ever envisioned. And it's just really, really beautiful. And I know I said this before, but I want to say this again, as my takeaway. Like I'm really excited to see how God's gonna surprise us, and for the good things are gonna happen, and the way that our lives intertwine and the way that you all do so

much good in the world. Thank you for joining us today. If you've enjoyed this, sorry, if you've been if you've enjoyed our conversation, please consider listening to our weekly podcast and find us on Instagram or Facebook at Questions from the Closet. Please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We're not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.