Welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.
And I'm Charlie Bird. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to consensus, but simply sharing our perspectives.
Today's question is, how do I teach my kids about LGBTQ?
Charlie and I are not terribly diverse, and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both don't like babies.
However, there are some pretty big differences. But actually, this time, there weren't. As we were talking about it, we just like, don't like holding other people's babies. It makes us really uncomfortable.
really don't like holding abies. They just I mean, you ave to hold their head and they ry and fluids come out of every art of them all the time.
And we were trying to figure out a difference. And the best thing we got was, ew, this is gross. But one time when when my little sister was a baby, she spit up and it like went into my mouth. So that was gross. But that's the only thing because he's like, Well, have you ever changed a diaper? And I was like, no. And so like everything, we we have very similar experiences with babies, because we just don't know what to do with them.
We just ignore them. And then when they're like, three, they're fine.
Oh, yeah. Once they get a little personality, I joke with my sisters, as soon as I can, like, throw their kids up in the air, and they think it's fun and giggle. That's when I love them. I love them before anyway, so I don't know. And they kind of look like aliens when they're first born. Cone shaped head. Yeah. Anyway, for all the moms and baby lovers out there in the audience...
Please don't hand us your babies.
Don't give us your kids! We don't want them.
So we would like to provide a wide variety of voices and perspectives. So today we're joined by Lisa Hanson.
Hi.
So Lisa, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Well, I do like to hold babies. So hand them over. I have seven of them of my own. I have a few extras. I have 18 grandchildren at this point. And I've been part of the LDS Church since my earliest memories.
Okay, and you have a lot of credibility as a Latter-day Saint. Tell us some things that give you some Latter-day Saint cred.
Well, you mean other than trying to hold home evening with seven kids? Week after week after week? Trying to have scripture study in the morning when they're all huddled under their blankets? That kind of thing? Definitely that's where my cred comes from. Also, one of my favorite things to share is that I wrote a primary song that at least my kids like to sing, which is the "I will go I will do the thing the Lord commands."
Did you really?
My husband and I wrote it together. Yeah.
That's cool!
For our kids. Yeah.
So we so when I teach Spanish at BYU, I always, we always sing that song as part of the future tense because it's just the future tense. [sings in Spanish]. Anyway, it's great in Spanish.
That is awesome.
So we use it to practice the future tense
When we're done, will you sing it all for me?
Maybe
I'll do it. What a classic what a primary classic.
And you have one more piece of credibility that I think...
Oh, do i? I I don't know that singing in the Tabernacle Choir makes anybody credible. It just makes us tired and happy.
Whenever I watch conferences with a person, I'm like there's Sister Hansen, I know her! She's my friend.
Honestly. So
I love singing in the choir. It is one of the highlights of my life.
That's wonderful, wonderful. And what do you do professionally?
Oh, I have a PhD and a license in marriage and family therapy from BYU. And about three years ago, I started a clinic called "Flourish Counseling" now a nonprofit "Flourish Therapy." We have 19 therapists, and we focus on LGBTQ mental health, individuals, couples and families.
Well, I hear lots of great things about the work you do at Flourish.
Thank you.
This question about how to how to teach kids how to talk to kids is a question we've gotten a lot and Charlie and I, I mean, we don't have kids.
We don't even like kids.
So we are ill equipped to talk about this. So we're gonna really lean on you and your expertise today to really talk to us, you know, how do parents talk to their kids about these issues that can they might not know what to do?
Well, I think the very first thing is to have an approach to people that are different from us, that is open. One thing that's common to human nature is to sort of set up who's us and who's them. And religion is really good at doing that if we're not careful. Because parents often teach our children, we want you to be around people who are enough like you that our values will become easy for you to follow
and be part of it. It's tougher to say hey, I want you to be around people who are not like you, so that you get a sense of how broad and diverse and wonderful the world is. And so I think that's probably the first principle is just to have a sense that maybe it's okay to not have everybody in your world be mainstream with your values.
So if if you expose your kids to gay people and gay couples at a young age, is that gonna make them gay?
I laugh but I know there's lots of people who say, hey, but 150 years ago, 200 years ago, there were not so many gay people. So it must be there is some social conditioning or some way that it sort of rubs off on people, people don't get the idea of being gay or even transgender, for example, without thinking that there may be other people for whom this life story makes
sense. So sometimes parents think if I actually don't expose my children to other people who are "that," quote, unquote, different, then maybe there's less chance that they will be gay. But that's not what we find out. What we what we really don't want to have is people who in their 30s, and 40s, are finding out actually, they never got to explore this or think about this, that they started thinking about it in their 20s.
And now they have families and children, and they actually need to make a change of lifestyle. I'd much rather have them think about this from five, six and seven, that there's a diverse amount of people in the world, and examine and explore their own feelings from an early age.
As far as like social conditioning, when it comes to being LGBTQ, I think about my social conditioning, which was incredibly straight-based, right? I was, I would argue more than most people socially conditioned to be straight, especially within this religion within this culture. And then on top of that, where I grew up in the rural Midwest, and the family that I grew up in, was very traditional conservative, like heteronormative, that exposure did not affect my orientation.
It didn't make you straight?
It didn't make me straight. And on top of that, I think I think what it did by not having exposure to LGBTQ voices and experiences, and I mean, I didn't really have people in my life, and I had no representation. What that actually did for me was make me feel alone, you know, and like, there was something different about me something off about me.
And it in almost any community, there will be young people just like you, Charlie, who are actually not going to grow up and be straight. And so it's very helpful for us to be aware of the young age, are there other people who might be like us. A lack of mentors is really one of our biggest problems.
I was talking to my sisters about this, because they both have young children, and I'm gay, so and their kids are pretty much young enough that it hasn't really come up, you know. There was... what my niece did ask why my brother had a girlfriend and Uncle Charlie didn't. And we were just like, you're three, it'll be fine.
We'll get through it later. But they feel like one of the most important things that they're trying to do is teach one of the most beautiful and foundational gospel principles that is, we are children of God, right? We teach our kids that they are a child of God. But to extend that and really have the children in our world, understand that each person is divine. And each person has been created by
loving Heavenly Parents. And kind of an understanding of that will prepare a kid to understand that people are different and special in their own ways. And then as you put on building blocks, and they get more exposure to the world, and more life experiences and start maybe asking questions about two boys or two girls or, or something that might be a little bit difficult to explain to a child?
Well, we think it might be difficult to explain to a child, you'll have that base and say, like, God created people differently. And here are some ways that some people are hurting, and that some people are misunderstood. And you can help them, you know?
That's beautiful, you do understand this.
I am a good uncle. I love I love THOSE kids.
And I think sometimes what gets in a parent's way is the idea that if I say, "Oh, uncle, so and so actually likes to be with boys," rather than if you're talking to a three year old and you're talking in terms of boys and girls, if that's what your language is about, right? I think sometimes parents are afraid to do that, because they think they're actually explaining something that is against God, or that is evil in
some way. But I think it helps parents to recognize that when people have these feelings, they actually are some of the best and most Christ-like feelings that people have, who we want to be around and who we want to serve and who we enjoy. Those are all divine attributes. And so if we tell a three or four year old, "Oh, your aunt, dates women, she likes to be with girls." It's not that we're
talking about sex. We're talking about a worldview that actually values in Christ-like ways, other people,
Lisa, will you speak a little more to this fear that people might have that if they expose people to the reality of same sex relationships and same sex couples and same sex orientation, that they might be teaching something that's against God?
Well, we have something within us that is like a moral compass that I think each of us sort of has. And if something seems like it's too far out from what we think God wants, we feel uncomfortable. And when I was growing up, that was very much around mixed-race marriage. I had a friend who was dating someone of another race and it was like the most scandalous thing and all the parents were having a difficult time. It was just something that
didn't feel right. Gradually, we have understood that that's not what we were hearing at the time, even from some of our leaders how, how that would not be good for people. And I think it is helpful for parents to recognize that their children will be growing up, where there are healthy and happy, same sex relationships. And it will be good for them to understand that, that this isn't something that is inherently evil.
Lisa, when is the right age to start having these conversations with kids?
Wow, this is like the conversation about sex. What I mean by that is, you don't give everything to someone who's young. But you give people age appropriate information. So a four year old might say, "When I grew up, I'm going to marry a girl." And parent might say, "Oh, yeah, you might," whether that child is a boy or a girl, that would be the appropriate sort of thing to say. In the same way as if a child says, "Where do babies come from?" You don't give them all the
information. But you may say something. And as they grew up, and and few are open, and they are open, you'll be talking about more and more details. "Why isn't uncle so and so married?" "I think that Uncle So and So is gay, that's what he told us last week," or whatever the story is, you can talk and answer more. As the child grows up, they want to know more.
Like I said, I don't have any kids. But I have siblings who do when I asked one of my brothers, what advice he had, he said that when he talked to his kids, he just kind of listened to their cues, because they asked questions about me. And he told, he told the kids, you know, that I'm gay and, and I have nieces and nephews, I think from like age 10 to 17, maybe nine to 17. And he said that, you know, it wasn't like an FHE lesson. It wasn't this big deal.
It was just, you know, as it came up, this was the conversation that they had. And then just talking about me being gay just became, you know, when it came to organically, they had the conversation. And my brother said that, you know, they don't see me like, as gay like that. I'm not Ben, the gay uncle. I'm Ben. And I am also gay. Yeah. And he told me the story about one of my nieces who, like, had a whole handful of Skittles, and she was like, put them all in
her mouth. And she said, "Umm, I didn't know gay could taste so good," because they were rainbow colored. So so this just became an organic thing that was talked about in the house, it was something that was never just like this, okay, we're having the talk about same sex attraction.
I like that idea. You called it "pay attention to the cues, listen for the cues." I love that.
And I feel like in a way, that kind of normalizes it, because because like you're saying, Lisa, we live in a world where children will see same sex relationships. And whether that's in person or in media, I think about sometimes when historically, I've been encountered by something that's out of my norm, a little bit out of my comfort zone, maybe I've never seen it before. Usually, my initial reaction to that is to either like be like, this is
weird. Or to think it's kind of funny, because it's something new. And I think there's almost a little bit of a risk, if you're trying to like protect, for lack of a better term your children from like seeing gay people, then when they do encounter it, which they will, they might not know how to respond and could be offensive or, or act in a way that kind of isn't telling of their character and who you're raising them to be because they just don't know
what to do in that situation. So how much better is it to to listen to these cues, and, as appropriate, educate your kids on on people and experiences, so that they know how to reach out and act in a social situation.
Such a good point, it's a liability when people don't. I love the idea that the children might be able to have sufficient experience that they that they are not liabilities in their work. They're not liabilities with other with other people they associate with, but they are actually really good windows of Christ's love.
So I have one set of friends where, you know, they're actually in the church, they believe in church teachings, but they're also in favor of gay marriage. And so they want to help their kids understand their perspective, but also, you know, raise them in the church to be active, faithful members. And then I have other friends who who don't believe that being the same sex marriages are okay. And they want their kids to know that, but they also want them to
be loving and kind. What would you say to both of these couples who are trying to raise their kids?
Well, let's start with the second one first, the ones who are actually probably really afraid that the more that kids associate with others, the more they might think that it's okay to "tolerate," quote, unquote, same sex marriage, and that they are afraid that association breeds that it's going to be okay. I think it's pretty apparent that kids who grow up are going to develop their own values that are somewhat similar to the parents
and some very different. And that the more parents try to put a fortress around their children's values, the more their children will try to break out of that fortress. The least likely to break away and and also the most flexibility are ones whose parents have taught them what parents believe. And then given them lots of space in which to see how they work in the real world. That tends to create cohesive families in
healthy ways. Families who prevent, and fortress around often have kids who break out, they don't come back. Because they don't perceive that within the family circle, there's room for them to explore. So the advice I would give to that second set of parents is, if you open your fortress doors a little bit and allow your children to explore and figure things out, they're more likely actually to pay closer attention to your values rather than reject them.
So you're saying that there's no way for parents to create their children's values, they're gonna create their own?
There's no immunization that takes the parents values and puts them in it.
Well, that must be terribly frustrating.
Well, it's so interesting, too, because parents seem to have this assumption that I will raise my children with me and they will become like me, because they have my genes. My, my, you know how I'm doing this. And it's a continual surprise to parents that that is not how it works.
I love this idea of strength through flexibility. And it's reminding me of some of my passions, we started gymnastics and dance. And in order to be a strong gymnast or dancer, flexibility is so important. And like, I don't know, I think that's like a common theme that I see a lot.
You were Cosmo.
I was Cosmo. I was, it even gives me like, images of like skyscrapers, like in order to have a strong foundation, like, rooted in Christ, which is a theme that we see through the Scriptures a lot like have your foundation in Christ, the tallest, most impressive buildings are very flexible, and they have to be able to move at the top. And so when this wind comes, they're able to move with it and, and stay grounded, even though they're moving.
They are stronger, because they can move.
Yeah, and and i that's something that I would love for kids to understand. And it's something like it's an idea that's helped me, keep rooted and in my value set.
And I think that principle underscores the first type of family, you were talking about Ben about the family who actually is supportive of gay marriage, but wants their children to have a really rich experience within the gospel. It's that same flexibility. It says, think about all of these
things. Be like Abraham, be a seeker, be a spiritual seeker, be open to personal revelation, study, the law and the prophets as it were, and be invested and engaged and know that God wants you to know, and experience the inner exploration of all of these ideas. He doesn't want to hold you back from understanding anything.
So what would you say to parents who say that they've a kid come home from school, and like, "Johnny says he likes Kevin" or whatever, I don't know, two male names. And that's gross.
Well, I think to a certain extent, everything about kissing and love is gross to kids. So it may not be wise to pounce on things that kids think are gross, just you know, they don't want to watch people kissing on TV of any gender or sex. But if it becomes something like, if they say, "Oh, that's so gay," that's something different. That's when a parent can say, we don't use that term as a derogatory term in our
house. You can say that's so funny, or I don't like that, or whatever word the family uses. But that's sort of like calling someone a name. And in our family, we don't say that about people in general. So I think that's easier than "Johnny likes. Kevin, and that's gross." Your mom might say, "If Johnny like Sally, would that be gross?" Maybe tease that out a little bit.
I think one of the best things parents can do is is teach by example, right? And so kids watch and bias and and i don't maybe it's too strong a word, but like feelings of hate, or discomfort with people a lot of times are learned behaviors, right? And kids watch kids watch the adults in their life and
people they look up to. And so your example and how you're treating others and and how you're speaking about other people and other groups of people, when they're not there with you are what are going to resonate to your children. And I just think that's something important to think about, you know,
Kids will pick it up. As a matter of fact, almost every young person I've spoken to when they're trying to figure out they're going to come out to their parents will say, "I remember what my parent has said about this." Five years ago, six years ago, things parents don't even remember they said,
Which brings us to another great point is like, I'm not trying to freak anyone out, but your kid could be gay, they could be transgender, they could be LGBTQ, and you don't really know when they're a child, you
know. And so the way you're talking about this and the way you're educating them can either empower them to have healthy coping mechanisms and understand their self-worth and put them on a trajectory that's going to lead to success and spiritual strength, or it can really damage them and put wedges in your relationship. And so I think that's just another great plus for, for being involved in this subject with your children as they grow
Such an important point, it could be your child, or it could be the child of a neighbor next door who may not be so accepting. And you may be the person that they remember was accepting.
Yeah.
And in every Ward, if what we find now in the Sharp Survey of schools is born out about 12 out of every 100 young people identify as either non-straight or non-gender cisgender in some in some way. So in a word, if you have, let's say, 50 young people, we're talking six or seven young people.
So it's not, what do I do if there's someone in my ward who is gay or transgender? It's there there are so what are we gonna do about?
So watch what you say when you say it around your children and around other people's children. You're influencing someone every time you talk.
Lisa, I remember reading this article from Rachel Manwaring a couple years ago, s e she lives in Arizona, and s e has a gay brother-in-law. A d she and her husband John help d start this this organizati n called All Arizona for LGB Q Latter-day Saints in Arizona. And she wrote this article abou having a bunch of gay people come to their house all t e time, because they would hold eetings at their house, and havi g their kids get to know t
ese gay people. And she said t at, you know, when their LGBTQ friends would come over, they' played the piano and they wou d sing, and they would, they wou d, they would play with the k ds and, and for them, like, i wasn't weird that they were ga people around like, it just w s this, this normal thing. And, and she said that, that the kids saw how how these people enri hed their lives and how fun they
were. And they just grew to h ve like a love and admiratio for, for LGBTQ people, peop e who are different because be ause they expose them to peop e who are different at this
That is such a great example, Rachel and Jonathan are, are really good examples of that. And they have written and spoken a bit about that. And I loved your word "enrich," because our lives are impoverished if we don't associate with gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people. Because I've spoken a little bit about church music, our church music history would be extremely impoverished without the contributions of people whose lives seem to suggest that they might be part
of this community. D. Michael Quinn's book, "Same Sex Dynamics" in, I think was 19th century Mormonism certainly suggests that part of our rich Mormon history in music is, is owing to the talents and our hymns, of people who might be part of this community.
Definitely, and all our Disney music as well.
Disney music as well! In addition to inviting gay people over to your home, which we don't do much during COVID. But if your children have teachers, seek out teachers who might be gay or lesbian, or bisexual. Let your children have voice teachers or piano teachers, or teach them their instruments or their tutoring, or let them have experiences where they get to know that gay people are not predators. They are actually people like the rest of us. Don't be afraid of the associations that your
children might have. As with all adults, that you have involved in the lives of your children, check them out, make sure they're they're, they have exactly what you need. But don't be afraid. And involve these people in your life as much as you can. It enriches you as parents.
Kind of difficult and, and maybe a bit awkward, at least for me that is hurtful to talk about is this misconception that you just brought up of, there's something inherently wrong with being gay and that it is predatorial or perverted, you know. And that's kind of the way it used to be viewed due to a lack of education and exposure. If you're having any of those fears, then then that's a good time to to introspect and say, you know, what do I believe and
why? And what experiences have I had that have reinforced this? Because I think, at least in my life, the the coaches and trainers and dancers and artists that I know that I've kind of looked to for guidance and support, have not met that have not like fulfilled those misconceptions, and they've actually just been wonderful people who care. And sometimes, we, our worldview is formed by misinformation that we have just accumulated through different people. And it's really not based on truth.
That's absolutely right. And it's usually based on a sense of what causes harm to the world, or to people or to society. And as we get to know, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender people, we recognize they are not causing harm, we're actually more likely to cause them harm. I would show interest in television programs that might have healthy gay programming to help kids know that you enjoy listening to it that you respond to it.
Politicians who run for office who might be gay, speak about their politics, not about their orientation. Just mention their identity in passing, but speak about them as legitimate valid parts of our society. Speak about neighbors, who might be they maybe there's a lesbian couple in the neighborhood. Include them in everything that you're doing for Christmas or in
shoveling people's walks. Make sure that your children know that they are equally part of your community, not as special side part of your community.
So Lisa, what I'm hearing you say is that the principle is create an open environment where kids feel comfortable asking questions and exploring questions, and also giving them the opportunity to get to know LGBTQ people and and have them be spoken about in in positive ways.
Yes, absolutely. And if as a parent, you recognize that you have some biases that make this harder to do that when your children ask you questions, you feel some tension, that's probably a good sign to not talk with your children about this, but actually find other adults to talk with, who have a little bit more experience. Maybe be part of some kind of online focus
group or do some reading. People usually make better progress when they talk with other adults, rather than spilling their biases into their children.
I actually know a pretty good podcast that I could recommend. And it's THIS ONE!
This sounds wonderful. Yes.
So Lisa, what advice would you give to a parent who has a young child like maybe 5-6-7-8 or 9 who, and they might be suspecting that this kid is gay? or transgender?
Yes. And what's interesting is that there are a lot of gender non-conforming children, who we don't know what they're going to grow up to be. Because transgender identity is becoming a greater and greater part of what we're aware of, in our society, parents are often asking, do you think my child's transgender? And the response we usually give is if your child tells you what they are, then it's time to pay attention and
help them with that. But often a gender non-conforming child will resolve their gender awareness and be comfortable with their body anatomy identity. But about 70% of those who are gender non-conforming will do that. But the majority of those will become gay become gay. They will eventually identify as gay, rather than it being a gender sort of crossover issue. So if a parent is wondering that, what a parent is best to do is sort of
watch and wait and take cues. I love what you said a few moments ago, listen for the cues, and be supportive of what a child says. A parent, there's no sense in a parent getting out ahead of a child. But being with the child, and asking questions, and supporting the child is really, really helpful and useful. Don't see it as a child rebelling, don't see it as a child, trying to be somewhat different from the parent or be the parents
face. Recognize that a child who share something with you has actually thought about this for a very long time, and is probably got some huge anxiety about raising these things.
And think about how much better off your relationship will be. And in your kid's well being will be if they feel like they have a place where they can bring those questions to light and in a safe space where they're going to be validated and not rejected. And you can kind of work that out together and understand what they're feeling and what they're experiencing. Whereas the opposite side of that would be to create an environment that feels scary, and then they're holding on to that alone.
Alone. And that's how they feel.
You know, like I said, a couple times, I've never been a parent, and I am just kind of like putting myself in a parent's shoes. And that must be so terrifying to not know what your kids values are going to be or how they're going to grow up. And it's like to want them to have like, this life that you have. That's so good. And, and that must be so terrifying.
It is terrifying. Because no parent has a child and says "Hi, I just don't really care what this job is gonna be like." Without even recognizing it, we create a trajectory in our minds of what this child's life is going to be like. So when you first hold a baby, let's say in a hospital room, and you look at this tender little baby in your arms, you're already thinking of walking down the aisle with them when they get married, or some
mission that they will go on. Or maybe there'll be a doctor like me and whatever it is. This comes from the very first moments, you know, I can't wait for their first day of school...
We have got to calm down.
Even in baby's blessings that, you know, trajectory. Yeah, I'm not saying that's bad. I'm just you know, this is just what happens.
This is how this is how we actually become attached to our children is by having this sort of thing. So when a parent suddenly recognizes "Oh, my child might not get married and have five children ever in that way." It is a grief process, a real grief process, and it can last for years and years. One other question that I often get from parents, parents of adult children, "I have a child who's gay. And they would like to bring their partner to the family reunion. But my other
children say they won't come. If this gay couple is coming to the family reunion." They don't want their kids to be around a gay couple. "What do I do?" And I love what many of you probably know of as the solution that Tom Kristofferson's family had for this particular dilemma, where they invited the adults to meet together and shared with the adults that they wanted their family to stand for. We will embrace our family members, and
we will stand for love. And our children and grandchildren will know that there's nothing they can do that will be outside the umbrella of our love. And so we would like each of you to--I don't know if they said it this way--prayerfully consider this family value, and have that be the message.
There's nothing that anyone could do to take them outside of the circle of the family's love. Lisa, thank you so much for coming on today. I admire you so much for the work that you do and for your voice and your advocacy. And I just think that we're so lucky to have you on and I love your song.
Thank you, Charlie. Thank you, Ben, I admire you too.
Thank you for joining us today. If you have enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving us a podcast review. And as always, please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We are not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.
You heard three perspectives and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time....