Welcome to Questions from the Closet. I'm Charlie Bird.
And I'm Ben Schilaty. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We are not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives.
Today's question is, how do I talk to youth about LGBTQ+?
Ben and I are not terribly diverse, and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both have photographs of ourselves featured on the covers of our books.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, Charlie's has a picture of his face. And mine is just a picture of my feet. But if you put our books together, it almost makes a whole person.
Would you like to expound on why there's a picture of your feet on your book cover.
So my book is called A Walk in my Shoes. And I wanted something that showed that I was like, this is like a book about being gay, but also incorporated shoes that also show that I was a Latter-day Saint. And so my brother came up with a great idea of having, like me sitting in a church chair, like a metal chair, wearing rainbow socks. So that's what it is. It's like my shoes and feet and socks and legs sitting in a church chair. That's the cover of my book.
Can I tell the embarrassing, but slightly arrogant story of how my face is on my book cover?
Of course.
Yes. I love this story. So I was in a meeting with the editors. And they were like, We have an idea for your book cover and we're not sure if you're going to be comfortable with it. And they kept like beating around the bush. And I was like, just ask what it is. And they were like, well, you do have a certain marketability. And we're wondering if you'd be comfortable if we put a picture of you on the cover. And I was like, ahhhh.
Marketability?
I'm like, you think I'm hot! That's exactly what I said. And they were so embarrassed. It was funny.
And I say, can I be on my book? And they're like, how about your feet?
I was like, yes, of course, you can put my face on a book. That's the best thing that's ever happened to me. Anyway, Ben, your book cover is perfect. I think it's wonderful. It's eye-catching. It's popping. It's, I love it.
I love it. And I actually don't like having my picture taken. And so it's nice. Just like sit there and not have to smile or anything.
I'm gonna stop before I talk, like for hours about my cover, photo shoot, and we're just gonna move right ahead. And with that, we would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. So today, we're joined by David Smurthwaite, who has graciously laughed at our joke already.
Yes, absolutely. Well, they're good. They're good jokes so...
Thanks, Dave. Yeah, so tell us a little bit about yourself.
I am an active member of the church. I'm in my early 40s. I am first and foremost a husband and a father. I've got a great girlfriend for the eternities. Her name's Marissa. We've got four amazing boys, Noah, Sam Oliver and Elliot. I, I'm here because I only came out earlier this year. I'm a newbie in the space, something funny about our family, we lived abroad for the last five years. We moved to France, I found an MBA program that I could go to,
and went over there. And then on the way home, we took a really long way home. And so we lived in Spain, and Rwanda, and Vietnam for a while.
That, that's not the most direct route back to Utah.
No, it's not. No. We got trapped in Vietnam with COVID for longer than we expected. And we just got back here in July.
Well, welcome back.
Thanks. I'm excited to be here.
So Dave, when you came out, what did you tell people about your experience?
So I came out as transgender. And I didn't really know that I was transgender, at the onset. And actually, I came out privately to myself in France. I'd gone through kind of decades of cycles of repression, where I'd have thoughts and feelings and just kind of tucked it under. And finally thought, you know what, I'm really tired of this. And so I started asking questions. And, and that's where I learned about things like transgender and gender
dysphoria. Gender dysphoria being this idea of your biology, not mixing with your psychology, and there being a spectrum there. So, so France is really, it's this beautiful and special place where, where I came out to myself for the first time, and then came out publicly a couple of years later. So came out privately and started to have conversations with my wife, and that was hard. And then really felt prompted really felt prompted at beginning of this year, that I needed to come out
publicly. Sat there for like 10 minutes, just like my finger hovering over the mouse button. Not sure if I wanted to publish or not. And then I hit "publish".
So Dave, you were assigned male at birth at what, what pronouns do you use now?
So I use he/him and his still. Those are the pronouns that I use, and, and I talk to individuals, if you can see me I have a beard. I don't, I don't look especially feminine.
Your voice might be deeper than mine.
I'd have to go through a lot of voice therapy, if if ever I transitioned but I use it as an opportunity to talk to people about spectrum and this idea that in everything there is spectrum, and in gender and gender dysphoria their spectrum as well. So for the large part, I'm comfortable. I'm comfortable in my skin. And I'm comfortable being male. But there are times when I desire a fuller range of,
of gender expression. And there are things about myself that cross more into what is traditionally stereotypically more feminine. When I was 14 years old, I actually, I started my own business because I couldn't get a job. And so I started a business as Dave's holiday craft. I was a toll painter. I don't know if you know what toll painting is.
I don't.
I don't.
So if you, if you have a mother or grandmother, which you probably do, you might go to their home during the holidays and see like little painted crafts hanging up or sitting on tables. So I would paint those. I would paint those little crafts, and I would go around and it was basically extortion. I would sell them to all of the ladies in the neighborhood. I made a decent living for a few years. But I would like I would go to Relief Societies and do
trainings on toll painting. And so I'm sure there's a there's a whole lot of, you know, sisters in my old Ward that are like, no, this isn't very, very surprising for us. Those types of things. But anyway...
I feel like I have an original Smurthwaite in my home.
Yes, yes, absolutely.
So Dave, can you tell us a little bit about your experience as a youth leader in church.
So I've served in a number of different capacities and leadership. So I was a youth leader here and also in France, served in young men's presidencies. Also served as a Bishop in the Salt Lake area, served in the bishopric and as Bishop there, right before leaving for France. So that's a good way to get out of a calling as a Bishop, if ever you need if you ever need one, just move abroad and and you'll get released.
Can't you just like move?
Well, now probably with zoom, they just like oh, we'll just hang on to you actually. You can just you just conduct remotely from France. But I've served in a number of capacities. I have served also as a seminary teacher, and did that in France as well. So I've had a lot of great experiences with the youth. It's just so phenomenal to be with them and to feel their spirits and see these testimonies that are just blossoming. And the questions that they have that are so sincere.
We're here to talk about how to talk to you about LGBTQ+. Me personally, sometimes I'll get asked to do like a fireside or a lesson with youth and I don't like doing it. And one of my fears is, you know, youth developmentally tend to be more black and white thinkers. They want people to give them answers. And so my worry is that if I talk to youth they're going to think, oh, well, Ben's got the answers.
Yeah.
Like, like gay people should just be like, Ben.
Yeah.
Or if I'm gay, I should be like, Ben. And that's one of the fears I have. And so when I started talking to youth, what I really focused on is personal revelation and teaching them okay, how do you get personal revelation to live your life and talk to God and include him in your conversations and in your decision so that you can figure out what to do? Because that's
People feeling like I've got the answers for them.
Yeah. I was, I had a conversation with a good friend recently. And, and he said, you know, I realized really early on that, that I wasn't on a personal journey. I wasn't on a world's journey. And I wasn't in on a Church's journey. I was on a God's journey. And I think this speaks to personal revelation. And my experience has been that, that it's not something that conforms easily
with church policies. It's not something either that conforms really well with the world's policies, like the world would say, what, go one way, the church would say go another way. And what I have to do is figure out my own way, in that messy middle, and I think, I think that's exactly what what needs to happen for the youth, and what they're doing, what they're having to do, because of the ecosystem that exists currently.
So Dave, when you were a leader, like what do you wish you had known?
So when I came out publicly, I had the opportunity to, I was approached, actually by a group of seminary teachers in Tooele. They had this they had this question of what can we, what can we talk to our youth about? They wanted to be more inclusive. They're an exceptional group. They just wanted to be more inclusive and loving in their classrooms. And they said, hey, I knew one of the seminary teachers, they said, hey, can you come and talk
to us? Because you're part of the LGBT community so like, come and give us come and give us answers.
You've got all the answers.
You have all the answers. Absolutely. You are the spokesperson.
You came out so you know everything.
This has not happened to you, I'm sure.
Never.
Never, never. I said, well, yeah, of course, I'm not going to turn this opportunity down. I'm sure that it's, you know, it's something that I should do. I felt like I should do it. But then as soon as I said, yes, I thought, you know what, I'm, I'm this 40 year old dude, who recently came out as transgender. I'm like, one, I'm a sliver of the spectrum. I'm a tiny, tiny sliver of the spectrum. And two, I'm like 20 years older than your...I'm more
than that. Like I'm 25 years older than your seminary students, and the world that they're living in. So, so what I decided to do was was try and reach out and ask youth and young adults their perspectives. And so I just put it out organically on Facebook. And I was astounded at the response from individuals that I was not expecting. There wasn't a space for these individuals to share their perspectives in a lot of nstances.
Dave I noticed you start to get a little emotional as you talk about these responses. Could you help us understand where those emotions are coming from?
Part of the part of the project for me was that I didn't want to limit it to individuals who were active members of the church, because quite honestly, if you're not actively participating right now, then some of the feedback that you might have is really, really important for us to hear. Just the the vulnerability that was shared there the transparency that was shared in their responses, it was, like I said, it was it was both beautiful, to hear of individuals journeys.
And just these are glimpses, these are in paragraphs, right. I don't I haven't had the chance to actually meet these individuals. Some I've had video interviews with, but just in three or four sentences, hearing their heartache, and hearing their personal victories and their journeys. It's just it's a tremendous collection of just really snippets of, of what our phenomenal, amazing lives and just to get that glimpse was was I felt, I felt honored quite honestly.
I'm really glad you shared that. When I think back to my time, as a youth in the church, people didn't really talk about this. I'm 27 right now. This would be like 10 to 15 years ago. And this was a taboo topic, it was never really brought up. So actually, sometimes youth leaders will be like, well, what do you wish your youth leader would have done? And I'm like, I don't know, like nothing was done ever. Right? Most of the information I got was was me
seeking it out. But I remember strong messaging as a youth about like, church versus world, right? I really internalized that. And in fact, there was this general conference, quote, there was like, you can't have one foot in the church and one foot in the world. They're rapidly diverging and you will lose your balance. And I printed it off. And I made like a cute little like, framed thing with a nice font, and I put it above my bed, and I would look at it
every day. And like that was such a strong message that I internalized. The way I was viewing it was like church versus world, world being LGBTQ, or just any type of thing that's viewed as sinful, or deviant, or just different, right? I look
back on that. And I'm a little bit, I feel a little bit conflicted about that because on the one hand, it helped me make really good choices and maybe like weed out some of the wild activities that I would have participated in, had I not had that mindset of I need to like, be spiritual. But at the same time, I noticed that it made me sometimes even consciously push away people I thought were too worldly, and not listen to their experiences...
Yeah.
...and close myself off from children of God. I'm just thinking about, like, how we can like rebrand messaging for youth these days. How beautiful would it be if we could keep that idea of virtue and power and strength in a gospel sense, but not at the expense of pushing away other children of God who we think are too different from us or who we individually deem worldly?
Yeah, I had had a similar experience when I, you know, when I was, I was 12 years old. When I started, like, exploring gender. I started having these feelings. I went into my mother's closet when she was not around and I found this hideous blue dress that's like, she hadn't worn in ages and with good reason. And then I like ransacked, like the old really old, like the dregs of makeup that she had in some other closet, that wasn't her main area. And I like snuck those up to my bedroom. And it was
horrible. Like, it was like, you know, like, Frankenstein. It was just, you know, but I felt really bad about it, because of similar messaging of like, okay, this is, I'm in the world. I'm not, I'm not where I need to be right now. So I went to my Bishop, and, who was like a grandfather to me, I absolutely loved him. And I confessed, and bless his heart, he, he just had, he had zero context for
what I was talking about. So he was loving, and he was kind, we had a wonderful relationship, but he basically said, you know what, we probably shouldn't do this. That's so that the message that I took away from that was like, oh, okay, like, this is bad. And so that kind of that started me down this decade's long journey of like, okay, if these feelings come up, push them down.
Dave, I'm so sorry you felt like you couldn't talk about it. You know, as you guys been talking, I don't really remember anything homosexuality related talked about in my youth. I mean, I'm sure it was it just didn't stick to me.
Yeah.
Yeah, well I just I don't think we can afford that anymore. You know? And I, I wish there would have been some sort of messaging even. I remember my first semester at BYU, I had a mission prep teacher, and he was talking about same sex attraction and a conference that was coming up. Obviously, I wasn't out yet. And I was listening to that, like, queasy and excited, but also like, terrified. And he talked about this summit that was going to be
in Provo. I ended up going and pretending that it was a school assignment. And my friends wanted to go with me. I was like, oh, I have to go to this stupid school assignment hoping that someone would go with me. Nobody did. So I went alone, looking back, like, some of the things that were shared at the conference were like, right now, they don't resonate with me at
all. But it was something, right it, it helped me get a different frame of reference, or at least see other people who are like me, and it gave me, I don't know, I just remembered that I totally forgot I did this. Because I like blocked it out of my mind, because it was like, almost a little bit traumatic for me to like, like a mini coming out experience like associating...
Yeah, yeah.
...when I was 19. And I don't know, like, even that professor is, and I don't even know if he's still alive. He was really old. And this was probably 10 years ago, I guess. Actually, it was a little long. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry, if you're still alive. But some of those ideas have been like debunked and are a little bit outdated.
Yeah.
I remember what was shared. But still, it helps me. Right. So that just like, opening the opportunity to have dialogue is so important. And as, if you're a youth leader, that's important. You know, you have to give people like you said, be someone's France, like you weren't able to introspect and figure out who you were until you had a quiet open space in France. How beautiful would it be if our leaders could be France for someone?
Beautiful. I love that.
As you've been talking Charlie, I've been thinking, just like really digging deep, like, what did people say? And the Family Proclamation came out in 95. I was 11. And so the family was like this, like, throughout my youth was like, really heavily emphasized. And so we didn't really talk about gay people, or LGBTQ people, it was just gay marriage is bad.
Yeah.
Like that, like that was the message I got. So so I didn't get the message of that we should love gay people, we should include them. It was just like gay marriage is bad.
I mean, the reality is, is that we haven't talked about it. And what we're finding is that suddenly, there's this critical need, right? Because, because as the world was evolving, and acceptance was happening, at the world level, those conversations hadn't or weren't happening yet in the church and suddenly, we're at this point where our youth are at the same level as the world in terms of commentary and understanding. It's a common conversation that's happening
with our youth. Either they are LGBTQ, or they have friends who are LGBTQ, or they're seeing it every day. And those of us that grew up in the church, where it wasn't talked about, most of us being leaders, right now, suddenly, we've got this whole world that's coming to us. And we don't know what to do with it. And there's, there's so many of us that are that are, that sounds like a revolution, that are rising up in this space, that are having these conversations. And I really
think it's for a reason. I think we need to expedite the knowledge and the empathy that exists in this space.
Well, I think the Holy Ghost is working on us as a, as a Zion community to so that we can have these conversations. I really think this is a spirit-driven thing.
Yeah.
So you know, we all talked about, you know, there wasn't a lot said when we when we were youth, and a fear that I've heard a lot of people expressed that, well, if we talk about same sex attraction, if we talk about being transgender, then youth are going to think that they are and maybe experiment when they really aren't.
Yeah.
But you know, what you said, Dave, was, you, no one ever talked about this, but you were experimenting with your mom's clothes and makeup when you were 12.
Yeah.
You know, Charlie and I didn't talk about this at all in our, in our teens and early 20s. And yet, here we are. Yeah. So I think that's a fear that that we just don't need to have.
Well, it's interesting, because the more we talk about this and give people space, the more people who are going to come out. But it's not because they've, it's not because we've convinced them or trick them into coming out. It's because they're actually LGBTQ, and they just needed space to understand themselves. I like have a personal testimony that like changing orientation does not
work. And so if you're afraid that talking about gay people, or seeing gay people is gonna make your youth or your child gay like that, that doesn't happen, or else I'd be the straightest personal alive.
So, so Dave, what would you say to let's say, a Young Womans leader is listening to this? And she said, you know, I want to have this conversation with my youth, but I don't know what to do. What would you tell her?
So I actually in preparation for this, because I was so inspired by this exercise that I went through, and this, and these respondents, actually grabbed some of their responses going back to, going through the same exercise. I'm like, yeah, sure I can. I can speak to these youth leaders or I can use the voices of the youth to speak to these youth leaders and I'd love to share the voices of these individuals. As a way to speak to the youth leaders.
Love it.
Let's start with Alexis. Active youth in the church identifying as bisexual had this advice for leaders: Love first, second, and third. Another youth who wanted to remain, remain anonymous was identifying as transgender said, you know what, just accept me as I am. I'm a person and I just want to be loved. And then Emma, who is a young adult, said it slightly differently. She identifies as
bisexual. She said, please know that the message, love the sinner, hate the sin and it's not the attraction, but acting upon it are messages that we've heard 100 times. It's not what we need to hear. The message we need to hear more is that we are loved exactly as we are. That there is hope for us that we aren't condemned for how we feel. That there is a place for us in this church.
I've actually been kind of emotional as you share that just because I until my late 20s, when I thought a guy was attractive, I felt bad about it. And that was a pain I carried for a really long time.
These are real youth that said these things?
Yeah.
I'm just thinking right now about how my generation and the next one, I don't... Are y'all in my generation? No. No.
We're technically both millennials. I mean, I'm an old millennial, but...
You're on the cusp.
And I'm just outside.
Well, I mean, I think we grew up hearing this message that our generation was saved for the latter-days and called for a special purpose. And then we are the noble and great ones. And I'm listening to these three people who are the noble and great ones. Because they get it. They understand it. They don't need someone to say, well, how do I love this person that's different from me? Like that, there's an intuition there.
There's, there's a Christ like understanding of how to treat people, how to love, how to show up and be there for someone without all of these like, biases and questions and trying to give advice or consultations. It's just they get the simplicity of the gospel. And I mean, that was my biggest takeaway from this is that, as youth leaders, it's not what advice can I give to this youth to guide them on their path? It's what can I learn from this youth?
Amen. Amen.
Because this youth knows something that I don't. And rather than trying to say, well, have you tried this made me do this? Say, tell me more about your experience. Let me in because I want to see, and I want to understand you?
Yeah, amen. Amen. I cannot agree more. I think that if we read in the scriptures, and we think about our own lines, God has moved the needle on the gospel, not through policies, but through people. As we think about the church that we would like to see, in the future, the conversations that we'd like to have, this is how he does it. And it is with this rising generation. I could not agree more. This is this is how change happens. It's through these
individuals. A quick aside I was studying in Fourth Nephi this week, it's it's a really interesting chapter because it kind of like it starts in Sesame Street. But then it ends in Game of Thrones, like, everyone's very happy, and there's no contention. And there's this perfect unity that exists with this group. And the verse that's stuck out to me the most even just the phrase with this idea
of "no manner of -ites". And I thought about that, in the context of my own experience, and this, this recognition, there was gladness and sadness at the same time of, I'm proud of my life journey so far. And I know that it's very dynamic, and I know that it will continue to change and the idea of, of taking upon myself, the label of trans or accepting gender dysphoria is part of my experience. It's been difficult, but it's also been empowering.
It has facilitated a lot. But I, but I have to, and I'm honest with myself, it's an "-ite", like the idea of being gay, or lesbian or bi, or trans. They're all "-ites". And they're "-ites" because they have to be, because because we've needed to find, we've needed to find our group of people community, our community, but theyre "-ites". So the perfect world, the perfect gospel is where I'm not trans. And Ben you're not gay. And Charlie, you're not gay. We're just who we are.
I think it might come off as controversial. Like people have tried to say this in ways that have landed wrong for me.
Yeah.
I really think the only reason that I have to identify this way is because society makes me have to identify this way. But I have relationships with people where me being gay is not me being gay. It's just me being Charlie.
Yeah.
And that's like, that's like some sort of like consecration. That's like a higher law. That's an elevated plane of thought. And so it's not that like labeling is bad or it's not that like, people aren't gay or transgender...
Absolutely.
And everyone just is only a child of God, because like, that kind of reduces the experience because there is this element of societal pressure and complexity that we have to navigate through. So we are forced to quote unquote, "-ite" ourselves.
Yeah.
But to be an ally, to be a true leader in this space, as someone who can give that to someone to where they don't have to be an "-ite" and they just are who they are. And it is like, the acceptance of a wholeness of a person.
I'm trying to put into words, my thoughts, I'm not quite sure. Because I've been told before, like, Ben, you're not gay, you're a child of God.
Yeah.
And that...
But I am gay.
Yeah,
It's not mutually exclusive.
And so what I'm what I'm trying to think of, you know, as long as, as long as someone's not like taking away this part of me, you know, if someone can accept my orientation, and it's not a big deal than I think I would find less need to label myself exactly what like when I lived in Arizona, I didn't wear a rainbow ring, because being gay wasn't weird there. But now that I'm in Utah, I wear a rainbow ring, because I want to give representation...
Right.
Yeah.
...to this, this, you know, something that doesn't have a lot of representation around here. And so I feel like if I didn't need to represent then it wouldn't, it wouldn't be such a big deal.
Exactly. And if there wasn't like pressure, like if everyone wasn't always trying to set me up on dates and force me to get married, then I wouldn't have to be like, no, I'm gay.
Yeah.
Right? Because, because that would just be like less people trying to put people in a box.
Yeah.
And like, with the people, I know, well, people don't like, blah, blah, blah, Ben you're gay. But I can, like, talk about having a crush on someone or someone I think is cute, and like that's just normal.
And it's like, understood that you are gay, but it's not like, you know. I hope this makes sense.
Just like you would talk about any crush, like, or any life experience.
Exactly.
It's been so interesting. When I you know, as part of this journey, it's been fascinating for me to see the, I'm using the word spectrum a lot, but spectrum of responses, and pegging those somewhat, pretty consistently to age groups as well.
For sure.
And, you know, coming out publicly to my nieces and nephews that are in high school, they're like, oh,
Like cool.
Okay.
Whatever.
Great. Awesome.
Yeah. And then if come out to people in their 60s and 70s and they're like, how can this be?
Yeah, yeah.
Let me sit down.
I mean, that when I decided to publicly come out, and I mentioned, coming out to a really small group of individuals. It was, it was the parents in the room, the parents and grandparents who said, listen, like, this is not a good idea. Do not do this. And these are all the reasons why you're going to mess up your life by doing this. And I, and I had to go back to them and say, listen, thank you so much. I love and appreciate you so much for the
concern that you have. You're not, this isn't like hateful responses. These are people really wanting the best for me and my family and saying, you know, this is really going to hurt you and your family if you do this. And I had to say, you know, I'm not crowdsourcing this decision. I just, I was letting you know, that this is the decision that I was making, and that I really, I feel inspired that I need to move this forward. For everyone who is younger. It's like, okay. Great.
Awesome. We love you.
I'm thinking about the story of you stealing your mom's makeup and running upstairs. And it's, it's actually very cute and endearing. And I'm sorry that it was also traumatic for you, because you probably felt like excited and beautiful as you were doing it, you know. And I don't want to, like, make an example, like a bad example of your leader. Because, like, we all know that when we know better, we do better.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I'm sure he was like acting to the best of his knowledge. But I think sometimes as leaders, and basically as anyone, when we're trying to like talk to someone, sometimes we take almost like a fear-based approach to the person. And if it's an experience, or a feeling that we don't feel comfortable with, or that we've never encountered before, there's like a fear of, oh, this could be a slippery slope, or we don't know
where this is gonna go. When really like there's nothing inherently wrong with putting on your mom's makeup at all.
Yeah.
Like that's not sinful. That's not wrong. It's actually pretty normal. Like a lot of people do it. And, but but he'd never encountered it before. So he was like, don't do it. I've never seen this before.
Yeah.
And I don't know, I just, I feel like if we're always in that mindset, it kind of limits our ability to progress and learn more.
It ties in really perfectly though, with kind of the second category of advice. President Nelson says good information leads to good inspiration. You hear that a lot in leadership, right? And we just don't have that information. We haven't had that information as leaders and so we get scared.
Well, what a beautiful like, calling to get that information. If you're if you feel uncomfortable with LGBTQ experiences and topics educate yourself, expose yourself to this area and see what you can glean and learn. Ask people about their experiences. Listen to podcasts. Read books. Watch TV. Like, understand what this is, and then you will I fully believe like, I like have a testimony of God and leadership
and callings. And like, if you are looking for how to do this, educate yourself and get that good information. So you can be inspired to not only make things okay for the youth, but to empower them and strengthen them and give them resolve and create a culture of, of unity and peace and love.
Yeah.
There's this awesome website for church leaders called counselingresources.churchofjesuschrist.org. I'll say it again, counselingresources.churchofjesuschrist org, and you have to have a leadership login. And so to be like in a Bishopric, or or Ward counselor, Stake Council to have
access. Under the same sex attraction tab it in the opening paragraph, it gives an invitation and a promise and it says that if you take time to educate yourself, and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit, that your capacity to minister will be magnified. And you'll receive the guidance of the Holy Ghost. I think that's what it was, oh, you'll develop charity, and your capacity to minister
will be will be magnified. And I love that, that as we educate ourselves and seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost, that's how we're going to be able to really minister and you know, educate like educating yourself, if you're a leader of youth, it's gonna be so important to really understand, you know, what's going on when they when they say words like transgender and bisexual like to know what that means and to know what those experiences might be like for the youth.
Yeah.
And then from there, this factor of ooh, I don't know what to do, because everyone's experience is different, is kind of taken away, because then you're just dealing with personal revelation. You're educating yourself, and you're praying. And then you can be an individual leader for each person in your ward, and take different approaches and be guided by the Spirit. And by a Christ, a God who knows us personally, and really does know what each person needs at every stage.
Yeah. I have a testimony of the calling of Bishop, I have the testimony of the mantle of Bishop of these blessings that are given to us as leaders. And I totally agree with you, Charlie, that, that the Spirit is there in those moments. And if we can take ourselves our heads out of the equation, we can let the spirit do its job.
Yeah, you know, I'm hearing you say a couple of things Dave. I'm hearing you say that, that there is sacredness and strength that comes with these callings in leadership. And also that we need to be a receptacle for whatever the people we're serving are feeling. And youth leaders need to be a place where the youth can come and talk to them and share what's going on
in their lives. And it's important to build those relationships by expressing interest in them and what they're doing and, and allowing them to really just open up.
And be honest. I had Lucas who is closer to my age, who said, listen, if you're willing to acknowledge that you're, that you don't know what to say, that maybe you don't have the answers, or that you're uncomfortable with the situation, then you've just entered my world. You've walked into a space where we can now walk together. They've heard canned responses so often that they don't they don't resonate with them. Because it's not real.
Dave as you've been talking I've been thinking like what would I have wanted my youth leaders to say. I'm trying to think of like how I would have felt because I was so insecure about being attracted to other guys when I was a teenager, that if someone said, if you are attracted to men, you know, I love you, I respect you, that would have been really, I think, I feel like that would have been hard for me to hear like that would have been scary to just like acknowledge the reality of
that. But if a youth leader had said something like, like, I have a gay friend, and I love him, that would have really, I think, changed my world and and erased a lot of years of pain, perhaps.
Yeah. A couple of things came out that were really striking to me. And that was that the overwhelming majority of them came out privately to themselves during adolescence. They first knew that question of when did you first know? It was during adolescence. It was during their youth. And when asked, do you have experiences where you were hurt? Also, the majority came from leaders, either from Ward leadership, or from youth leaders or seminary
teachers. And again, we're in an extremely vulnerable spot in that, in those moments, and so, so no judgment on the leaders. But what it speaks to is this idea that, why do the leaders want to know what to say? Because they're on the frontlines, like they are on the frontlines, and sometimes they are the first responders, or they will be the first responders to these youth that are wanting to talk about this. We should be encouraging the youth to have these
conversations with us. Because as leaders as youth leaders as leadership in a ward, we are going to learn so much from having these exchanges with individuals and and gleaning from them and their experiences. We need to learn from them and their perspectives as well.
Well, Dave, thank you so much for sharing your life with us for being so open and vulnerable and for also sharing your expertise in this area.
Wow. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Really cherished the moment together. It was fantastic. It was really great.
Us too.
Thank you for joining us today. If you enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving us a podcast review. And as always, please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We are not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.
You've heard three perspectives and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time.