Welcome to Questions from the Closet. I'm Charlie Bird.
And I am Ben Schilaty. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, how do I start a support group?
Charlie and I are not terribly diverse and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, neither of us have had any piercings.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, Ben has this scar on his upper lip, and it looks exactly like he had a piercing.
I swear everyone thinks I've had, I had my lip pierced, which is not true at all.
Well, the first time I met Ben, he was like giving me advice and like talking about churchy things. I'm like, oh, my gosh, this guy must have, by the way, this is like judgey, five years ago, me. And I was like, he must have like, a really wild past. And he took out his piercing when he came back to church. I was just like, making assumptions. And then I was like, why would you get a piercing there? It's like the weirdest spot.
So this has happened literally dozens of times someone will talk to me and they'll be like, I'm so sorry. This is rude. But did you pierce your lip a while ago? Like it's happened dozens of times.
I kind of want you to get it pierced just to see what it would look like.
No. I have a scar from when I was like, 15 I had like, it's really gross. I had like this really terrible blackhead and I'd love to like a divot in my lip.
It's from a zit?
Yeah.
Oh my gosh. Oh, wow.
It's much worse.
Puberty.
And when I was in Mexico on my mission, these teenage girls that we were teaching thought that thought it was funny that I had, had a piercing and that's what they thought and they gave me like a fake one to put on there. So like put it on and see what it looked like. And it did not look good.
If you did get a piercing what would you get?
And I don't think I would get a piercing.
I guess it's like a tattoo question.
Now I know what I get if I got a tattoo, but I wouldn't get a piercing.
Should we save that for another episode?
We would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. So today we're joined by Michelle Sherwin and Byron Korth. Michelle, why don't you start first and tell us a little bit about yourself?
Yeah, I'm from Vancouver, BC, actually, Canada. That's where I grew up. And married. My husband and I moved here to Utah about 28 years ago. So we raised our family here. And we have six kids. I don't know if you guys are old enough to know the Brady Bunch show. But...
Of course.
Ben, don't sing it.
We have pretty much a Brady Bunch. So we have girl boy, girl boy, girl boy for our six kids.
How many of them are blonde?
One.
And she has curls, the youngest one?
No. She's the oldest. But so our oldest four are married. Now we have five grandkids, which are super fun, super cute. And we have one daughter who's 21 and just started the MTC at home experience. So that's been really neat...
Wow.
...to to be with her for that. Yeah.
I love that you're from Canada, because my mom's from Canada. So technically, I guess I'm half Canadian.
Yeah, for sure.
Which makes me like a little bit like international you know?
That's so exotic.
Yeah, and our youngest is gay. And that's what put me on this journey. And he is 19. Some of our family is in the church. Some is not as of recent. So, you know, that's been a journey lately, but I enjoyed playing sports growing up. I loved lots of different kinds of music, and I love the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Awesome. Thank you, Michelle. How about you Byron? Tell us a little bit about you.
Grew up in the northwest a lot of different places. One of the main places I grew up was in Astoria, Oregon, the home of The Goonies, and it was filmed there while I lived there, my yard is in that so that should give me all credibility in the world.
Wow!
Came to BYU met my dear wife there. Served a mission in Mexico. After my mission is kind of where I wanted to figure out what my life was going to be like and decided to look into Family Studies, family sciences, and got my doctorate at Auburn University. And then came back to BYU I'm now a religious educator there in, my main class that I teach is eternal family. I serve in a state presidency in my home stake. Prior to that, I
was a YSA Bishop. In fact, her daughter that's going to get ready to serve her mission or is serving her mission was in my ward, so I know her very well. And it was exciting to hear permission call. My wife and I have three children, one of them married, and the other two teenagers at home sophomore and a senior in high school.
All right, well, we're here today to talk about support groups. We get a lot of messages from people who want to start a support group. They want to do something in their area. And you guys are here because you've done something really cool. And the first support group that I went to was one that I started.
I'll pat you on the back. Thanks.
Thanks Charlie. Yeah. But when I came out on my blog in 2015, I realized I was the only gay Latter-day Saint I knew about in Tucson, and I got all these messages from people who were who were struggling, but in different areas of the country and, and I thought, well, maybe there are people here who are struggling in Tucson who need some help. And I thought, well, maybe I can provide that support. And so I reached out to my Stake President, and he assigned a High Councilor to
work with me. We wrote a charter. And we started a support group it was, it was officially sponsored by the stake, but then the area authority had approved it as well. But then someone above him, we found out that we weren't allowed to have the support group sponsored by the church. And so I just move forward independently with the Stake President's permission, but just like my thing that I ran on my own. So what led you guys to want to start something in your stake?
So when I first learned that our son was gay, it was 2017. And I went through that process on my own. He didn't want to talk about it at all. He didn't come to me and you know, go through a real coming out process. And so I was, I kind of figure things out on my own. And I really felt the need for
support for myself. I was really, felt alone in the process and felt, you know, like I needed help, and that there's probably people out there who had been through this, but I, you know, didn't know where to turn. And I did find some help through a counselor. And she got me to a group that was helpful, but it was an online group and, you know, Facebook group, and I found a podcast that was super
helpful, too. So fast forward a couple of years, and I just, I had gotten to a much better place of acceptance and understanding through things I had read and listened to, but I just started feeling these little Inklings, little push of wanting to provide support to other people who may be in the same position that I was. You know with my family situation, some were not active members in
the church anymore. And I really wanted it to be something that was church-based that was faith-based, and that would help people who wanted to stay active in the church that, you know, they had a testimony and wanted to stay with that and love, love God. And so I just thought, well, maybe I should go through the church and why not ask. So I reached out to my Stake President, President Pennington and thought, yeah, I mean, if he says, no, then I'll think of
something else. But I think I'd like to start with the church. And if we go stake-wide, then that would hopefully be able to reach more people. So I went to President Pennington and he said, actually let me just sit with that for a while. So I did and...
How long was a while?
So a couple months went by. And he said, oh, I haven't forgotten. I'm sorry it's taking me a while but I just have not been able to figure out how this will, you know, how to do this in the right way. And if there is a right way. And leave it with me. I am working on it. But you know, leave it with me. Okay, so then what's maybe a couple months later, and I reached out to him again. And so...
You were the squeaky wheel?
Yes. Do I keep pushing him? I keep asking. So this was summer of 2019. And then February 13th of 2020. Yeah, it was just last year 2020. I wrote in my, in my journal about he's, he's finally feeling good about it. He's happy about it. He's excited. And we've been given the okay. So it was, you know, a good six, eight months process for him to work through how to do this for our stake. And is there a right way to do it?
It sounds like this started with a really sincere desire for you to (a) find the support that you'd been needing, and also give support to other people and provide like to fill this void this space that there hadn't been filled in your life. And I think that's really beautiful. And additionally, I want to point out something that you said that I just, like, my favorite thing that you said is why not ask? I've been reading the scriptures and it says, ask
and you shall receive. Knock, and it shall be opened unto you. Amen. Like, that's all over the scriptures. And I was raised believing that God could give me good things. And I think a lot of times, I just don't even think to ask because in, in, and you know, this is like coming from church leaders. It's not like directly from God. But I think in both instances, sometimes one of the most powerful things we can do is just like be like, hey, I have this need and an ask for it to
be fulfilled. And that was really courageous of you to do so like, two thumbs up.
Thanks. It was kind of funny. I struggled with that a little bit as I pondered on asking, and, and pushing, you know? Keep pushing for this group to hopefully get started because I was serving as a primary teacher at the time. So you know, I struggled a little bit with is this okay for me to be asking to do this for our stake? And, you know, just the stigma, I guess, in the church of not asking for callings.
Yeah.
So, you know, but then this became more of an a stake assignment, I guess. But yeah, like you don't have to have a leadership position to make a difference. And...
This reminds me of section four in the Doctrine and Covenants where it says, if you have desires, you're called to the work. I remember, I was, I was on a panel about how to start a support group, and there was a woman from another country and she said, I really feel like I want to do this in my country. Like there's nothing going on in my country. I got a little bold and I said, I think the Holy Ghost has just called you to do
something. Because if you have desires to serve God, that's how you're called.
Yeah.
So Byron, tell us what this was like for you on the ecclesiastical side. When Michelle came and asked this, what were your discussions like?
Well, this is really neat to hear some of the little bit, that behind there as Michelle's feelings and desires to ask. As soon as she did reach out to our Stake President than the presidency that I'm in, he did start to share with us and it was put right there on our agenda, a little bit to the defense of the delay, we are a brand new stake presidency. And so we were trying to get our
feet underneath us. And we had some significant boundary adjustments and so forth that we were doing and so, and that, but there was a hesitancy as to what would this look like? What does this mean? What are the implications of this? Is this an advocacy? And all the things and as I pondered a bit on this, in preparation, and with your guys' invitation, I really see the Lord's hand in this. I don't know if this maybe would have
come about. And I don't want to put anything on me or any focus on me or anything a, years before as a YSA Bishop, as I meet with members if they shared with me about feelings of being gay is same sex attraction it was all new to me. And I began to learn and the best place that I learned was from them. I went
to a Northstar conference. And at that Northstar conference I met Spencer Thompson, who now I think, is the President of Northstar and heard him share of his journey on his panel, I'm thinking, this is something that I want my YSA ward to hear and to learn from. I then come to find out that Travis Stewart was a member of the High Council of that stake that I served in as a
Bishop. And so I brought both of them in and heard their stories, heard their journeys, and saw the tremendous influence that it had on my ward. As Elder Christofferson says that when those who bear the heaviest burden stand up in defense of God's plan, and to hear Spencer and Travis share of that, I guess, in some ways, you could say I was hooked. I wanted to learn more about the experiences, the testimonies that our LGBTQ brothers and sisters are experiencing and
having. So bringing that experience in along with being a professor at BYU that would teach the eternal family class. That would create some challenges for our LGBTQ students there at BYU. Once again, just trying to understand and what their experiences, how they're perceiving and learning about. So with that background, when then a Stake President says, hey, we've got this good sister who would like to start a support group, I'm not really sure how this is going to come
out. I says, I do. And I would love to, to take some of my experience and join and partner with Michelle, and how we might be able to bless the lives of many. Not just providing support for our LGBTQ members, but also to educate and teach the members of our stake and, and hear the testimonies hear the experiences, hear the hard things that are being felt and
understood. And so I think from that point on, it's been a great partnership, as we've, we've tried to invite and have a lot of different experiences with that there.
So Byron, it sounds like from the beginning, you were a champion of Michelle's cause.
Very much so.
And that was because of what you, the experiences you've had, and what you've done to educate yourself.
Right.
I really appreciate the work you did as an ally. I feel like with my experience, honestly, I've had really incredible church leaders. But I've also had a few that were more like advice givers, and like, oh, you have this problem, let me tell you how to fix it. And honestly, that, that falls
flat. It's really difficult. And I just so appreciate that, that you saw people who were confused and made you feel confused, and maybe a little bit unprepared, but and rather than just like scramble with the existing knowledge you had, that you were willing to step out and maybe go into that uncomfortable space and, and talk about some of these issues, and these issues that can sometimes present trials of faith and, and like these really like on your knees, grappling talking with God
trying to reconcile things. There are some people who, who don't do that. And that takes a lot of effort and courage on your part. So thank you for that.
Well, I there's two members of my former wife's a ward that come to mind. I it was an uncomfortable space to be really honest with you. Because I didn't know there's nothing in the handbook to say, well, when they say this, you do this. And so I just said, teach me. What's it like for you? What's hard? What's difficult? And then I took that same thing with students in my classes that they would reach out to me and, and I started to then change to not only what's hard, but how is it
a blessing? I remember very clearly one student in one of my classes said, as he shared his experience, he says, Well, I think not only should we be listening about how it's hard, but the blessings of it. And so I started to change some of my questions and say, how is this a blessing to you and teach me and help me understand. So...
That's a, that's a shift and change that I would love to see happen more often in the church. Because that was a shift that I saw in myself a few years ago. And once I was able to, like, stop looking at all the ways that my identity pushes me to the edge of the, to the margins, or, or makes me feel different. And when I started looking at the ways that it blesses me, and it helps me serve and helps me connect with people. That's when I started really growing into myself.
So instead of struggling with same sex attraction, flourishing with same sex attraction?
Yeah. Ben's always trying to coin some new phrase.
It has never worked.
Try again next time.
Alright fine. Yeah, so what happened next? You kind of championed the cause? Michelle, you asked repeatedly, then like, what were the nuts and bolts of getting it approved to actually do it?
We decided, let's get this going. I just I felt an urgency to get going. So I asked, you know, can we do something next month? And that was the first, we went with March 8, I think was the Sunday. So we decided let's just do an in person, do it at the stake center Relief Society room. The stake presidency, I think was a little, was wondering, you know, how is this going to go? How many people are going to show
up? Let's just, you know, anticipating maybe this would just be a few people, which is fine.
Is it two people or 200 who are coming.
So we went in the Relief Society room and put the word out and the stake was awesome. Our stake presidency, they gave announcements to every ward in the stake and asked the bishops to please announce this over the pulpit in sacrament meeting and to sunday school, Relief Society, priesthood classes. Please put this in all your announcements in the bulletins. We're having this LGBTQ support group first meeting. Come learn if you want to, you know? So we did it on a Sunday afternoon.
May I pause you quickly?
Yeah.
Who was invited to come?
So we actually made it very broad. We said, you know, if you have family members who are LGBTQ, if you are LGBTQ, if you'd just like to learn and be a support person, or you know, come learn about it. So I...
So LGBTQ folks, allies.
Yeah.
And families.
Yeah. Which, you know, I kind of went back and forth on that, like, you know, for myself, I'm a parent. And so did I really, did I want this just to be a support group for
parents of kids. But I then felt like no, I think there's a need for everyone who wants to, to be welcome to this and be involved and, and then it also became something for, for me in my heart that I wanted LGBTQ people to feel safe in the church and feel safe in this group and wanted, and that they, that we honor their testimonies and their struggles, like President Korth said, and we want to be with you. We want to mingle with you. We want to create relationships with you, become
your friends. So I you know, we invited everybody, kept it pretty open, and we had a good turnout. We started setting up a few chairs in a circle. And when the society room and more people came, and more people came and kept adding chairs, you know, adding lines of circles, and then the room ended up completely full.
Wow.
Yeah. So it was really exciting and neat to see the desire for that, you know, the interest. And then of course, the very next week, church was cancelled, everything had to be online because of COVID. And so I felt very grateful and very humbled that God had worked this all out that we could get going in person. And then since then we've done things on zoom.
What kind of schedule or agenda did you have? And like, who presided, who led the meeting? Like, logistically, how did that work?
I like, like, Michelle says, we really started out very broad, I'd have to pull up our first announcement, like she said, that we we sent out there. It was very broad, very welcoming, very open. And I would say that we really didn't have a specific agenda when we started out as far as where are we going with this. It was more of let's create a place of welcome for anyone that wants to talk about and share of their journeys and their experiences.
It's pretty much always been Michelle leading out and I make sure that I'm there as well, so that this is church or stake-supported, providing remarks along the way and so forth. But that's kind of how we started out. I remember that very first meeting very clearly. And like Michelle said, we were really kind of wondering what kind of turnout were we going to
have. And when I went back to the next week and shared with the Stake Presidency that we had over 50 plus individuals there and the diversity of those that were there was really pretty eye opening to all of us.
Yeah, you know, I'm just thinking back to the support group that I started when I was in Tucson. And when I talked to the Stake President about, you know, who was going to be invited, he was very clear that I want people who aren't active in the church to feel welcome. He said, if people are in same sex marriages, or same sex relationships, they should feel welcome to this group. And I said, of course. I feel I feel the same way. And so we just wanted anyone to come, we did a
little bit differently. I was worried that a lot of people would come. And so we just focused on just having LGBTQ folks and family members. And then we ended up, and so our plan was to have like a spiritual meeting once a month, where we just like, discuss a conference talk or something, and then have a social once a month. And then we just all ended up becoming such good friends we never did socials, because we were always hanging out together all the time
anyway. And we were almost all of us were YSA age because I was, I was, you know, younger back then. But one thing we started doing was we started doing just outreach and teaching people about the LGBTQ experience just organically, just out of a need. So that was never something that was, that was formalized, but just kind of grew out of, out of a need, we saw.
Hey, Ben, can I pick your brain for a little bit?
Yes.
I've spoken to quite a few of these events, and I've attended others, and some of them are really powerful and inspiring and uplifting. And others feel a little bit umm...
Sad?
...sad, or sometimes they can they can get angry or tangled. I mean, this is a, this is a really sensitive topic, and people are coming from different backgrounds. And it's, it's just difficult sometimes. So I was gonna ask, if you, Mr. Ben Schilaty, have you, have any ideas of like, how to structure this to where it can be uplifting and like center around gospel principles, but also meet the needs of LGBTQ people who maybe don't feel they have a place?
Yeah, I think this really depends on like, what the needs of each area are, and like, because each stake is gonna know what their needs are. I wanted my group to be like the Genesis group, which was started for black artists back in the 70s. So it was like a monthly fireside. And so that that was always my idea. So, but what we did instead of like having a fireside is, we would just have different people plan lessons.
And we just like, have a discussion about a gospel topic, but like through an LGBTQ lens. And I thought that worked really well. Like one week we read the Family or not the Family Proclamation. And we probably did that too. We read the Living Christ.
I'm like dang you really started off wrong.
That, one meeting, we talked about the living Christ. And so we talked about that, the points that that stood out to us and asked the group and this was our main discussion but you know, if there were a paragraph added to that document about how the living Christ feels about LGBTQ people, you know, what would it say? And we had this really lovely discussion about,
about that. And so that, that's what we would do, we would just have a gospel discussion, usually about like a chapter from the scriptures that someone liked, or a conference talk or like the Living Christ, or even the Proclamation. And that was really wonderful. And, and then my last semester at the University of Arizona, but before I moved away, I wanted to read the whole book of mormon that semester. So I invite everyone in the group to do
that. And so we ended up meeting like twice a week to discuss what we were reading the Book of Mormon, and it was something like organic that happened and we all loved hanging out, we would just talk about what we were reading in the Book of Mormon. That was amazing.
Yeah, I think one of the biggest benefits of setting something like this up is the sense of community that can be built. I remember the first time I went to an Affirmation conference, it was kind of like my first step into any like, organized type of LGBTQ LDS anything. And I really enjoyed the breakout sessions and the workshops and like learning from different people. But honestly, for me, what stuck the most was just like conversations in the hallway. And people, that's
where I met you, Ben. Like, I would meet with people and talk with people one on one. And that was a way to kind of like to get like, a main message that everyone could share, and then have that on their mind as they mingled with each other and talked and got to know one another better. And I think that is...
Can I just interrupt you for a second?
Yeah, please.
Like you're talking about like a sense of community like that is true. But like these people were my family.
Yeah.
Like they're my family. I remember, like, especially aft r after the Affirmation Conferen e, like two years after I mo ed away from Tucson. It wa like a reunion, like a family eunion. It was just so like I just loved them all
Yeah, I guess, honestly, to put it frankly, the point I'm trying to make is that, if you like, throw a bunch of like gay people and allies, LGBTQ people in a room and are just like, okay, here we are, let's talk tt can kind of go pretty haywire, pretty quick. But if you have some sort of structure and can like synthesize it, and knowing there's a sense of community, but like, based around like you were saying, Ben the Living Christ or like a Come Follow Me,
something like that. And then afterwards, people can have like individual conversations and have their individual needs met after and not so much in a group setting I think the opportunity for that to be really effective and spiritual and powerful. Grows.
I want to, I want to have Michelle talk a little bit about how she feels, what our agenda was because it was her brainchild there.
And by agenda, I mean, like structure.
Yeah.
Like what are we, like, not like the gay agenda.
Right. No, no, no.
Like, who will say the opening prayer?
So we really did talk about that beforehand. And I want her to be able to share a little bit about that. That first meeting we purposely said, and I think Michelle shared her journey. So we, she introduced kind of the purpose of it. And like she shared there a little bit earlier, she really wanted to make this a group that focused and centered on the Savior, Jesus Christ. And so every meeting starts out with, this is all centered on the
Savior, Jesus Christ. That was the announcements that we sent out. And then she also set some clear ground rules there about that we're not here to bash on the church and to talk negativel. That we really want to invite a very powerful spirit. But I want Michelle to share a little bit how you feel, what our agenda, what was your agenda, what did you envision here as we started out?
Yeah, so you know, very much based on the Savior, and wanting to strengthen people's testimonies. Help them feel like they can be LGBTQ or have LGBTQ family, and remained in the church. They can have their testimony. They can, they can enjoy both in their lives.
I've just seen so many people walk away from the church, because of this, you know, whatever the issues that they have, with, in the LGBTQ world, and I have just felt such a strong pull to stay and to build my testimony and to show my son, and anyone in my circle of influence, that I can have a strong testimony, and I can also love my son and support him 100% and, and trust him, you know, in
his, in his life choices. And I, I really wanted to build that, that feeling of coming together as a group and being able to follow Christ, and let's trust in Him. Let's listen to his guidance in each of our lives, and that those choices may take us very different places. And I'm okay with that, you know. Everybody's choices don't have to look like mine. But I fully believe that everybody can be guided by the Savior by the Holy Ghost in their choices and have have our Savior part of their lives.
So it sounds like in your group, you really honor one another's agency?
Yes. Yeah. But as far as the agenda, yeah, we start with a song and a prayer, I have to say that first meeting that we started, I had asked a sister in my ward to play the piano, and we sang a hymn together. And as soon as she started playing that hymn, the Spirit in that room was so strong. I just felt
it thick. And other people commented after the meeting to the spirit was so strong, as soon as we started that hymn and I think that was a real testament to many people in the room of what we were doing was of God, and you know, that this could be a beautiful thing.
You know, Michelle, as you were telling the story about your friend playing the piano, in this hymn, you sang in the spirit that came into the room, I was reminded of a scripture in Matthew 25, verse 40, when when Christ says, and as much as you have done unto the least of these, my brethren, you've done unto me. And I think in a lot of ways, LGBTQ people in the church, especially right now are the least of us. The ones who, who are unheard, and feel hurt and confused, and are often
misunderstood. And what you, what both of you were able to do was offer a space where these people who were outcasts by society were given a place of acceptance and love and support, and carved out a little institutional place where they could feel comfortable coming
into a church building. And like Ben was saying, like, even people who haven't been to church in years and have married a partner, and long since, you know, like, haven't stepped into church building in a long time, like, given them a space to where that they can connect with Christ and worship and be with other saints. And I was thinking that maybe that's part of the reason the spirit was so strong, because as, as we serve others, we're serving Christ. And Christ
represents LGBTQ people. His atoning sacrifice, and his experiences, know what that is. And as you help those, the least of these, you're helping Christ and showing that love.
Yeah.
So what have been some of the challenges you guys have faced? Besides COVID of course.
We'll talk about struggles. And then we'll talk about blessings.
Exactly.
I don't know to be to be honest, as I think about the challenges, I guess that the initial challenge was just getting started.
Yeah.
And then once we got started, and we saw that there was an interest and...
Sounds like there was a hunger even.
Yeah, then I think we were able to, maybe the challenge is, is understanding what that hunger is and how to properly feed that hunger. I know that there has been a couple members of our stake who are LGBTQ that have attended, but I would say the majority of those that attend are family members of those that are LGBTQ. And I remember two specific experiences, as Michelle said, we will often at the end our presentations or invited guests will have questions and answers.
And there's been two times where parents, particularly mothers have opened up and very raw moments and trying to then how do we answer that? How do we address that? And, and I think because we try to always focus and establish it on the Savior, that we turn it to the Savior, and then you start hearing and other individuals will chime in and say, I know how you're feeling. And I have felt the same, or I do feel the same
right now. And, and so then it's not so much, I mean, going back to your question, a challenge, we might worry, well, how am I going to feed the hunger? How am I going to answer those that are hurting, but by providing the group and we come together as a body it's addressed there. It's not me or Michelle having to be the answer giver. It's the providing a space where others' experiences can minister to those that are hungering and hurting and needing help.
You know, as you said, I remember since I was like the founder of this support group, I just felt like this need to like take care of all the group members. And then I realized that I didn't need to do that. A community was formed and people took care of each other. And I saw people who I would never imagine being friends becoming like the best of friends and
taking care of each other. And like, that's the beauty of building a community like you don't have to, you don't have to answer that mom's struggles, or you don't have to know what to say, because the community will be there.
I think sometimes when we think of support group, or maybe it's just me, but I think of like Alcohols Anonymous, is that what it's called?
Alcoholics Anonymous.
Okay.
AA for short.
AA. I think of AA where it's like a group of people like being led. And there's like, some sort of like trained person there. But this sounds more to me like less of a support group and more of just like, saints getting together, and like seeing and being seen, and learning from one another in a way that centers on Christ and is not exclusive to anyone.
I would say that I see Michelle and I being more of facilitators. We don't stand up as experts and be the answer givers. But let's facilitate and, and I think that we try to figure out how, is this a support group, like, you would have a head counselor and people would come in. And I don't know what other name to call it. But it's not necessarily that, but it's where we're facilitating some important interactions amongst members of our stake.
I thought of another challenge that came up that I did not anticipate. In our first meeting, one mother said, I invited a church member in our stake who's LGBTQ. Their response to me about coming to this meeting was, oh, the church just wants to know who I am so that they can keep an eye on me. And that took me aback. I had not thought about that. And I thought, Oh, that's a challenge that we should work to overcome, that we need to somehow show that this is, no we're, this is
really a safe space. This is not a spying on group. But this is a safe space that you can be who you are, and we love you.
Well, and, and what, like how much more of a reason do we have then to like show that because, in a way, like, that's kind of like taking a litmus test of the church culture when it comes to being a closeted gay person. And I remember feeling like that. And I hear a lot of people, as I talk about these issues, they say things like, "Oh, well, the church is doing so much better than it has in the past, and things are looking up." And
that's so true. And I'm so grateful for the progress we've made but that's still predominantly the culture is if you're gay, you can't be a member of the church. If you're gay, there's people who are going to look at you differently, or think about you differently. And, and that's still happening. And for that reason alone, I feel like we have almost a responsibility to make those positive, hopeful, brighter voices louder and more visible.
Yeah. I agree. I feel like it can get to a place where they feel totally comfortable with us. And they should, because they are loved by Christ as much as anybody else.
Yeah.
It should be a very safe place for everyone who wants to be there.
This is one of those things where if, if someone doesn't trust your motives, you know, show me your fruit.
For sure. For sure.
Just show them what you're about and people will come.
We have been a little bit hindered with COVID. I think that's prevented us creating a bit more community that we would like to have right now. But I hope that by having Ben and Charlie as guests in our support group, I invited two of my students who are gay and students at BYU come and share their journey. Share their
testimony. Share their experience, and I think it really to be honest with you, I think it blew some members away to hear those voices, to hear those experiences, because they're so inundated by other untruths, in terms of our LGBT brothers and sisters. So by hearing and showing them that we want to invite individuals to come and share their experiences, I think that's hopefully shown what we really want to do and what we're really about with it.
So what have been some of the blessings that have come from this?
So some of the blessings of having this group have been definitely connections made and friendships made with myself, and a lot of the people that have joined us, as well as between people that have attended with us. At our first meeting, remember we did that one a person, a gentleman texted me later in the evening, and just said, thank you so much for doing this meeting. And he said, this is, you know, you're so brave. And this is a conversation that we all need to
be a part of. Another lady in my ward left me a voicemail, and said, "This is such an important topic. I came home and had a conversation with my kids about how we should treat everybody with Christ like love, just based on the spirit that I felt in the meeting today. And I just wanted to tell you how appreciative we are." So people really appreciated coming together, and having that
discussion. And because we had to go on zoom because of COVID of other people from not not in our area, were able to join us and so that that kind of opened up some new opportunities to have a lot more people with us. My stepdad who's about 75 listened to Ben and shared during that, at the end of that, how much his mind was opened, and a greater understanding that he gained from listening to Ben
and his experiences. And he's been a lifelong member of the church and said, this conversation would never have happened, as he grew up in the church. And so he was really appreciative for a new understanding and awareness that he could do better and learn more. So it's been able to reach a lot of people in a lot of different ways than we
anticipated. Gentleman in my old Ward, also, after Ben's meeting with us, he said, "When this meeting began, my heart was filled with sorrow and pain, as I thought of those who share the status of LGBTQ. I thought this world only held sorrow. As I listened to the strength of your testimony, I became so hopeful for all to be included and to feel God's love, and for those of us who are learning from the
spirit." So it's really, I think it's really benefited a lot of people opening hearts and eyes to, to who we all are and how we can love and include better.
I would just echo the same thing and eyes opening. I love Michelle's point there. I think eyes have been opened. I feel and know that comfort has been given. And, and the only other thing I would add to that is, I hope this was for you, both you and Ben and Charlie that it gave you a space where you could share your journeys and continue to share what you've learned and share your testimonies. And as I'm thinking of the two students that I invited to come to our support group and share of their
journeys. One Paolo, he's my TA and he's been out for, for a couple years. But the other student that came, that was really his first time to openly share what he has felt what he has learned what his hopes and desires. And there were some very differences between the two of them in terms of their
experiences as well. But I hope that this has been an opportunity for individuals to be blessed by sharing of their experiences and have the spirit confirmed to them of who they are and their place of being able to share testimonies that can bring comfort and open eyes to individuals.
What a sacred experience to have someone share their journey for the first time.
Yeah.
So I want to ask you, let's, let's imagine that there's some listener, and they're just an average church member who feels...
A primary worker.
...just a primary worker, shaping the rising generation was filling a pull to do something. Now what would you tell them Michelle? And for you, Byron, imagine there's some church leader who's listening to this and thinking, I should do something. What advice would each of you give to those people?
I would say definitely follow the Spirit. Follow your heart. And if you're being, you know, led, or fill a drive to start a group, or even if it's just an in home group. Just to follow that. Follow the Spirit because we never know what good we can do. And what help we can give. And how it might magnify.
I guess I would say to those leaders who maybe are approached by someone and say, Hey, could we start a group? Or maybe they themselves have wondering, "Should we start something like this and our water and our stake?" Learn and listen from others. Learn from our LGBTQ members. Go to the North Star site where, and the church's same sex attractions website where there's voices of individuals, sharing of their journey, sharing both the hard
as well as the blessings. And let that nurture that desire of wanting to do something. This is really an opportunity to minister. And so see it as a ministering opportunity, and prepare yourself so that it can be a ministering opportunity by listening and learning from our LGBTQ members.
I think we're really blessed to have more resources than we've had in the past. One of one of them being Ben's book, "A Walk in my Shoes".
Both of your books.
Thanks Charlie.
You're welcome.
I was thinking about, like, if I was hearing this for the first time, what would I be feeling? I think I'd be feeling a little overwhelmed like, "Well, how do I do this? What do I do?" And I think if I were starting a group now, I'd just want to do like a Come Follow Me group. Like where we get together, and we like discuss the Come Follow Me reading and like, how does this apply to us?
I think that'd just be like a really simple way for, just to get people together talking about the gospel, but also talking about how it affects LGBTQ people.
Yeah, I think sometimes, especially with with things like this anxiety can almost be a driver. And I don't know, I feel like when I when I'm feeling I need to do something. I'm like, scared. And I'm like, ehhhh, but I'm also like, really occupied, like, I can't stop thinking about it.
And so I guess I'm just kind of stealing the question and adding my own two cents about what advice would I give to someone who feels like they should start some sort of group but like, the advice I would give is, of course, you're scared, of course, you feel a little bit uneasy and a little bit unprepared. But like taking that courageous leap of faith and saying to yourself, "Why not ask
and why not try to do this? Why not move in and get a little closer and try to create something that's going to shape people and bring people closer to the Savior?" It's doable. And both of you are proof of this. But not you, Ben because yours got shut down.
Mine did get shut down. Oh, yeah, go head Michelle.
I was just gonna say when we're about to do something good I feel like Satan redoubles his efforts to give us all the doubts give us all the worries. I know, just before we did our first meeting, I just had this inner struggle of wait, who am I to think that I can do something like this in my stake. Like, I'm not a therapist. I'm not a counselor. I don't have this great knowledge. And I'm not a church leader right now. You know, who do I think I am to start this group and agggh? You
know? Can I do this? It's coming up here real soon and I just all, you know, started beating myself up and had to really turn to God. And okay, God, you know y intentions. I don't have hese credentials behind me, but 'm a mother, who cares about my on who's gay, and I want to each out and support other eople. And, you know, after I ave that, to him I felt s rength again. I felt like yes, t
is is good and I can do this. An , and it's not really about me It's about bringing, again, br nging people together so that th y know that they're loved an , and have support around th m. And so you know, those are na ural feelings of, I don't th nk I can do this. But we all ca . And I feel like today, Sa an is really tearing up the ch rch and tearing up our fa ilies. And one of the issues he s using is LGBTQ issues. And, an I want to be a power for go d to combat that.
You know, it's so interesting, because the more time I spend in this space, the more I'm reminded of the story of the restoration. And what you were saying just now reminded me of like the classic Joseph Smith scenario, like, big thing, feeling unprepared, like going to make real change, but right before it happens, being met with, with darkness and feelings of self doubt, and worthlessness, and like the
adversary being there. But how beautiful it is, to push through that and connect with God and take that courageous leap of faith.
I just kinda want to pull together some of the doctrinal things we've talked about from the scriptures, that you know, if ye have desires to serve God, you're called to the work, that when you do it to the least of these, you've done it to God. And then I just want to pull in, you know, in two or three are gathered together in my name, you know, Christ will be there. And I think there's a lot that we can do to just, you know, bring even small groups of people together to do a lot of good.
Again, as I ponder and think upon this, I just really see the Lord's hand in it. And the timing of our paths crossing the paths that I crossed in preparation, and, and really by Michelle and her, being this little bit of a squeaky wheel there as a new Stake Presidency was trying to get their feet underneath them. She wouldn't let that desire and that wanting to serve and help administer and what qualifies her to do it is exactly what she just shared there her love and her wanting
to turn to God for help. That qualifies her and as, as I've been able to sit back and watch, as I really feel that she's more of the leader on this, I see the Lord working through her. And, and we and she has been able to bless as we've brought two or three together in the name of Christ. It really has been a blessing. And we've learned along the way.
Wonderful. Well, thank you guys so much for for sharing your stories and for the good you're doing and it sounds like you're blessing a lot of people and being blessed as you do that. So thank you.
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