Welcome to Questions from the Closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.
And I'm Charlie Bird.
Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, how do I overcome shame about my orientation?
Charlie and I are not terribly diverse and we share many opinions and life experiences.
For example, we both have brothers that are hotter than we are.
However, there's some pretty big differences. For example, Charlie came out to his brother while hiking Kilimanjaro, and I came out to one of my brothers while sitting in his living room.
On this podcast, we want to provide you with a variety of voices and perspectives. So today, we're joined by Stacey.
Hey, what's up guys?
Welcome. We're excited to have you. Tell us a little about yourself.
Ooh, where do I begin? It was a dark and stormy night. No. I'm from Dallas, Texas. I grew up in Texas. Came to BYU when I was, when I graduated high school like most people.
What year did you graduate?
I graduated in, well, I graduated in 2014. Winter of 2014.
Okay, so you're 24.
No, I went to school like, in like, 2006. I'm like 31.
You graduated from BYU in 2014.
I thought you were talking about high school.
Oh, no. Oh, I was like, no. I was like, you did the math so fast and no I feel so old.
It's a good thing they can't see you. They can only hear your voice.
Yeah. And you couldn't see me blush even if you could. Benefits of having nice chocolate skin. But um, I came to BYU and I studied public relations. I graduated BYU in 2014. And then I immediately started working full time for BYU TV. I worked for on a show called Studio C, which some people in this community have heard of.
Hasn't Conan O'Brien heard of it?
Conan O'Brien, I heard that he still tells people about it. I am flattered.
Weren't you on his sh
I was on the Conan O'Brien Show with Conan O'Brien.
That's amazing.
It wasn't even like not with him. It was with him.
Wow.
It was very, it was one of our moments, which is very, like, it made us feel like we were doing, doing all right, you know?
Yeah, that's cool.
So we actually left studio C, not too long ago, September of 2018. And then I came out December of 2018 publicly.
What was that like? Especially coming from, so you waited to come out until after you graduated to come out publicly.
I waited until after I graduated.
Me too. So I'm just wondering if we had similar experiences.
It was wild.
It was crazy, huh?
I yeah. It's it's actually like one of those things where it's like people asked if I didn't come out earlier because of BYU. And no, no, not really. I just needed time to like, figure out my stuff.
Right.
And I'm a very headstrong person. So once I know what I'm doing, I'm doing it. You know what I mean?
Yeah.
It just took me a while to get there. So after, you know, talking to various Bishops and praying about it, and I took it to the temple, and I did like all I talked to a Stake President. Yeah, I was like, you know, what, I'm gonna come out and I'm gonna start dating. And that, I was really, like, talked to everyone at work. I was like, "Oh, my gosh, so this could really hurt our company, because we create clean content." Right? And we know, we have a lot of very conservative consumers of
our content. And it's, you know, what's the like, the stereotype is not, is that conservatives aren't very supportive of LGBTQ.
Right.
And so I was like, Hey, guys, "I, is this a concern for anyone?" and my friends were all like, incredibly supportive. They were like, if people feel like your sexual orientation isn't friendly, family friendly that's their problem.
Yeah.
And we support you 100%. So I came out publicly, and I was ready for the worst. I was ready for like to lose everything and like, the world to come at me. And yeah, there were some haters, but it was overwhelmingly very positive.
Yeah, that's cool. I had a similar experience, because, I mean, I was Cosmo. And I had spent years building this brand and really making Cosmo cool. And he's like, this masculine, like, energetic like, I don't know.
Cougar?
And I was so worried. Yeah, Cougar. And I was so worried that coming out with like,
Like, kind of hurt that image.
Yeah, yeah. Cuz like, I worked so hard working on this image, and I cared about it. I didn't want it to be directly associated with me or like, make it look bad. But yeah, all my like my teammates, my coach, people, athletics acted the same way. They were like, you know, if you feel like this is something you need to do, go for it.
You talked to everyone about it?
Yeah.
It's kind of freaky.
Yeah.
It's like, you feel like you have a lot on the line, you know?
Yeah.
I actually, there were rumors. When I was in the PR program there were rumors in the PR school that I was Cosmo.
Steal my thunder.
I like could even fit that costume. I'm five, six. It would have like, like really slack arms and like...
Well, okay, don't take this wrong way. But so I, the Cosmo, whoever's Cosmo has to wear eye black. Because eyes look look really creepy, because you can see through the eyes.
Ohhh, then you do black faces Cosmo. I'm just kidding.
Not quite, but we were like, like eye black, like makeup around the eyes just so it matches.
That Cosmos like is the...
Like, the dark. Yeah, whatever it is. And so that was
That's really why. like, no offense, but that wa like one of our outs, becaus people would talk about Cosmo like, "Oh, he's one of the blac guys on campus" and we're lik , "Awesome. We're safe. They're not gonna find us."
Yeah, because the eye black.
Cuz I was like, I don't understand why people thought I was Cosmo. They were like, they would be like "Where were you the other night?" At the game I see. And I was like, at home eating popcorn.
Well, and then I would always walk around looking like Green Day or something because I couldn't get it off. And it looked like I was wearing guyliner which which you know, secretly, I kind of loved. My pupils are poppin. Fabulous. you was like...
I know, for my job I like, I like, often I get to dress up all the time for my job.
Yeah, yeah.
So it's like, really fun to be like, oooooh. You know? Anyways.
So I haven't dressed up for a job. And when I came out, no one had heard of me.
All right. That's...
Not a big deal.
That's one of our many differences.
I actually had a friend recommended me. When I came out they were like, "Hey, you shoul look up Ben Schilaty and li e his story and like talk to h m or something."
Ah.
I don't know if you know my friend .
Are you kidding me? I dated his roommate.
Shut up. Who's your roommate?
Well, I'm gonna keep this in but bleep out the names. This is funny.
Wait, you did? She loves you.
Yeah. Oh I love her. She's in.
I love her. She's a great human being.
Yes, of course. That's
That's so funny.
I actually wrote my dissertation, not my dissertation, my master's thesis about her and her sister and how they, their accents when they speak Spanish?
Ohhhh, you speak Spanish?
Yeah, I do. Si, Senor. I mean, they're amazing.
Just charms. I love that.
Yes, I wrote my thesis about them.
I want to talk more about it. But I don't want to
No we're gonna be talking about shame. Let's talk waste your podcast.
I don't want to waste your podcast. about shame.
Let's take it down quite a few notches and talk about internalized shame.
Surprise. This is a really fun topic.
What do you got for us today?
Gosh. Dang. Wow. That's a tough one. Because it can be really, it's not like super tangible. But it's so visceral. You know what I mean? We know shame is bad. I think everyone's pretty much on this same page where like, guilt can be a motivator to be better. Shame is a motivator that like, motivates you to distance yourself from people like withdraw? Yeah, you guys could probably maybe define that a little bit better. But um, shame is bad. I think if you got it.... What Brene Brown would say is,
"Shame is 'I am bad'. Guilt is 'I did something bad'."
What a relevant topic for what we're talking about. Because I know that growing up, it was really hard for me to like, well, you just feel broken. You know? You feel broken. You feel like disgusting. You feel like, tainted or whatever. I remember thinking of my sexuality being like, it's the thorn in my side. And I remember, there was a point when I was like, this thorn will never be pulled out. It'll just be here. And you what a pain that is? You know?
Where do you think those feelings came from?
Oh, man, there's probably so many factors. I grew up in Texas, Southern very, like, Southern black culture, right? Very, like macho and stuff. Like, in fact, when I came to BYU, I was like, I did think, and I don't know if this is rude, or whatever. I thought everyone was gay. I'm gonna be honest. Because I was like, just the way people acted. I was like.
And they dress kind of weird, too in Provo.
And they're like, let's watch Disney movies.
Well, I was like, in Texas you would have got pegged a long time ago. You know, we get really good at like, pretending and hiding.
Yeah.
So we don't like, you know, so we don't let on. But I came to Provo and I felt like I could like, let go a little bit of that like, macho thing I was trying to be. But anyways, that comes from like, you know, how I grew up the culture, and in the church, you know what I mean? It's a little bit deeper than just like, it's bad to be gay. It's more like your eternal salvation is at stake. You know what I mean? It's a little more like, perspective a little more than like, it sucks now.
So you were worried that your orientation was something that would jeopardize your eternity?
Oh, man, my orientation I knew was gonna jeopardize my chances here for work, for friends, for my family loving me or like accepting me and my parents being proud of me. And then I knew that like, God hated me. I knew he'd like hated that, you know what I mean? It took me a really long time to, to get to the point where I was like, God hates that. Not me. And then to get to the point where it's like, oh, maybe he doesn't hate that. You know what I mean?
When I was growing up, I had this reoccurring I would say dream, but it was more of a daydream it was more my thoughts running wild. And it was always Judgment Day. And I was standing there like surrounded by the generations, my whole family and there was this big screen. And everyone like gasps when they see like the world from my point of view and see that I'm
attracted to men. And everyone just like yelling at me and they're so disappointed and God hammers and there's a pit that opens and I just, like, fall into hell and watch my family be separated from me.
Oh my gosh! That's intense.
Yeah, yeah, it was dramatic and, and like that was my view of, of like the afterlife. And yeah, like, I don't know. Now. I'm just kind of sad thinking about that because I just, I'm just crushe that like, the little 15 year ld me was, was so worried that j st my very existence was go na distance me from everybody nd everything that I lov
I didn't have anything quite that significant...
I'm kind of dramatic.
...or dramatic. But when I was when I was 23 and getting to a point where I had to come out because I just couldn't deal with, deal with what was going on on my own anymore. I remember going to see a movie with some friends and just, I just could not stop thinking about being gay and how much I just wanted it to go away. And we saw Spider Man 3, which is not a great movie, but it was a wonderful escape from reality for me. And before the movie started, one of my friends could tell something
was going on with me. She said, Ben, "Are you okay? Like what's going on?" And in my head, I thought , "If you knew you would hate me." I really felt like if people knew about my orientation, they would hate me.
So, Stacey, how did you overcome those feelings? How did you?
What do you mean "How did I"? How am I...
How are you still? You know, it's still kinda baked in to us.
Yeah, I think that's kind of the thing is like, it's not just like, and now I'm shameless. But I do think, and I'm gonna be honest, guys, like, I do think in some ways, coming out has been a more pleasant journey for me. And I think it's because it's not my first rodeo as a minority, to be honest. Like, there's so many internalized messages, there're so many messages, we internalize that the world tells us about sexuality, about ourselves about what it means to be a man and
don't be a pansy. Like we're constantly filtering these messages out, right, and changing our behavior accordingly, or how we treat ourselves or look at ourselves. But growing up black, so for all the viewers out there can't tell I am black and proud. Nice little short chocolate, man. All right. So um, so like, being black in this country is not necessarily like an easy thing
all the time. And so my parents knew that growing up that I, we needed to believe something about ourselves that the world wasn't gonna tell us. And so they tried so hard to infuse messages of our worth and our value. And just like, you know, those kind of things that are like, "You are worth something. You are important. You have a voice that means something." And I, and I don't know, just like growing up from that moment. I was like being tested all the
time. I remember having to like, really, really, really believe that or I would have been, like, crushed. When I first came to BYU someone was like, hey, like a friend of mine, in quotations, and they because, I say that because they weren't trying to be rude about it, they were just like, "Hey, you should know you're only here because you're black. Like, like, that's the reason why you're here." You know what I mean? It's like,
stuff like that. And like, for someone who is like, I didn't really know too much about affirmative action, you know, I mean, it's like for someone learning these things. I was like, constantly on the verge of like, second guessing who I am or what my value was, or if I had value, you know, that kind of thing.
Yeah.
But you just have to build yourself up because the difference about being gay and being black is people can look at me and tell I'm black, you know?
Yeah.
So it's like, there was no, no chance of hiding. Anyways, jump to nowadays coming out. The essential, I kind of just talked about this. Guys, I'm obsessed with plants. You should know that I love house plants.
What kinds of plants? Like succulents?
Ah, I'm not a huge fan of succulents, but I'll tolerate
What about a philodendron? them.
Ooooh yes.
I just got one.
How about a nice little barrel cactus?
A what?
A barrel cactus.
What did you call them?
Is that just your traditional like...
Yeah.
I'm into it. And I just like really like houseplants. And I'm gonna go on a little tangent, but it has a point I think. There is, so venus flytrap. So you guys heard of it? Carnivorous plant. It's the coolest plant. Everyone loves it. It's really flashy. It's really neat. It eats insects. Like come on, that's awesome. Right? And then there's another plant that you probably haven't heard of called the Z Z plant.
I have not heard of that.
Yeah.
I know it.
You've heard of it? It's not that flashy. And it's not that cool looking and stuff. And people don't necessarily like, it's not like the first plant people like, ooh. But the thing about the Venus Flytrap is that the Venus Flytrap needs to eat like insects, because it's like soil is so poor in its root system, root system isn't like amazing, like the things you don't see aren't necessarily like crazy fortified so it needs to get it from external places.
It needs nutrition from external places, and that plant is finicky. You put it in a different source of light, it's weak. You know, you feed it a different type of water. And it's like withering. It's a finicky plant. Right and the ZZ plant is a champ, you could put that thing in a dark corner and everything would thrive. It doesn't die. It's called the plant of steel. And the trick is that the ZZ plant has incredibly fortified roots that store water
and nutrients like a boss. The ZZ plant gets its strength from internal places and that Venus flytrap needs all this external help. And I feel the same way about us as people where it's like, if you get your value from external places, that will control you and a flip of a switch something slightly different will just make, it'll make, make it'll make you crumble. You won't have a
foundation. You need to have your like, your sense of worth and value, you what you believe about yourself has to come from like an internal place. You have to believe it first and foremost. You know what I mean? Because things change around you. Someone tells me I'm butt ugly. And I'm like, "Nah, I already know I'm a beautiful chocolate man.
So, so what are some of the external sources that that gave you feelings of shame?
Yeah. So for example, I think honestly, like, family growing up and not, not even purposely, it's like our parents were like, I'm gonna make you feel good about being black, but bad about being gay. They didn't know. But you get those mean, you hear like your dad talk about what it means to be a man. And like, or your people saying, stop being a pansy. Or don't be a little like, why are you acting like a girl? You know what I mean? I hate to bring
attention to that. Because it's such a such a rude thing to say. But family or friends, you know what I mean? Like little offhanded things people say those things like stick.
Yeah.
I get so many messages from kids that are like, I want to come out to my dad, who's a Bishop or something. But he once one time, sneered while watching like when Will & Grace came on, and I can never talk to him.
Yeah.
Those little things stick.
Like micro aggressions.
Yes. And then moving on. The church has I think made it a really, really tough place for me, especially just being like, how we talk about LGBTQ people, especially back in the day when I was growing up.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, absolutely.
I often say that most of the times I've heard about gay people talked about at church in the sense that it's bad and...
Yeah
awful
Perverts.
And most of the times I've heard gay people talk about in a nice way at church have been when I have said it.
Yeah.
Yeah. So there's, there's a lot of those external pressures that are just really tearing you down. You know what I mean?
Yeah. And what, where's this internal, internal, this internal sense of self worth, like, where does that come from?
I'm gonna be honest. The way I feel about myself and I think friends can help that sense. But the way I feel about myself has come, is like, not from, like, feedback I've gotten from people. It comes from, like a very internal place, like almost something like spiritual and sacred. Like, I have a very firm belief that like, the more you strive to stay close to the Lord, the more he puts you where he wants you and makes you what he wants you to be. You know what I mean?
Yeah.
He just like transforms you. I was speaking to a youth group a couple weeks ago. And after I finished, I was taking questions, and one of the girls raised her hand, and she says, "You were talking about praying, and asking God for guidance, like coming out." And I was like, Yeah, of course. And she started crying. And she says, Why would I talk to someone who
hates me? And I broke, it was so hard and, and part of the reason I was breaking is because I remembered being exactly her age and feeling exactly the same thing. And I didn't realize this at the time, but I was ashamed of who I was. I remember I would, I would start my prayers and apologize for my existence. I'd be like, Heavenly Father, I'm so sorry, that, that I am me. I was so ashamed to be me. And I, I was just convinced that God was ashamed of me.
Could you imagine a parent hearing their child feel that way about them? That's gonna be like, heartbreaking.
Yeah. And in my perceptions of who God was, weren't based on my actual relationship with God. They were based on what other people had said about what it means to be gay.
Like what you thought.
Yeah. And, and when I finally made that shift to, I'm not broken, I'm not unsalvageable, God didn't make me by mistake, or purposefully like, like, making me as like a rude joke. You know?
Like an accident.
Yeah.
But he spilled the like, sexuality liquid and like, whoops.
Right. And I'm like, and when I realized that, and I realized that he'd been there the whole time, and who my
Yeah keep going. savior was, and who my heavenly parents are, is so much
Stand on that box of soap and preach. different than who I expected them. That's when I was able to start climbing out of my shame, and sharing the burden with other people and coming out and, and instead of like, creeping away into the dark closet, and, like, I mean, that there's a reason that's the term we use. It's dark. It's horrible in
Well, it's just so interesting, because I, at one there. Once I started actually creating a relationship with God, like you were saying, that's when I was able to find point, I was, I was in college, I was more popular than ever. I my identity and find my sel worth. I have more to say, if I can I just stay on my soapbox for a little bit had a ton of cool friends. I was Cosmo. I loved my life. I had a 4.0 and I had an athletic scholarship. I had an academic scholarship. I was killing it.
The 4, 4.0 is like the most impressive part of that. I'm like, blown away.
Because I could be Cosmo, but I couldn't get a 4.0.
Never. I could I could hack in that suit.
Well, thanks well as amazing as all that was, I thought I was the worst. I didn't see that side of me. I only saw this side of me that was freaking out and scared and anxious and hated myself.
Wondering when it was all gonna crumble.
Right. And I was so blinded by my shame of just not wanting to be myself. So all of those other things that I was just like, really excelling at, weren't even, I couldn't even recognize that and see my worth. And I don't know.
It's really interesting. I feel like I've had a bit of a different experience than, than both of you because I was never like mad at God never felt like I was a mistake. It was always just like a trial and a phase I was going through.
Oh, interesting.
So I knew like there was no doubt in my mind in the future. I just had to do enough things, and I would be straight. So it
Ummm, I did believe that too. I was a great missionary. was... Oooh, I was like, I'm gonna marry a woman when I get back.
Exactly. And so I just kind of got to a point where I'm just gonna keep doing the best things I can, all the good things and then then I'll be fixed. So it wasn't like I was ever mad at God or like...
But it stemmed from the same idea that there was something to be fixed.
Yeah, exactly.
That's cool, though, that you were like, I'm not mad at you, God but I realize that this test is tough. But I'm gonna pass it kind of thing?
Yeah, exactly. And like, what, when, when is this gonna get fixed? I thought if anyone ever knew, then they would hate me. And I just had to keep it to myself until I got it taken care of. And interestingly, like, shortly after I came out to my parents, they encouraged me to go to therapy to, to fix my orientation. And I did and it didn't work. And my dad has apologized so many times for that.
What? Can I pry?
Yeah.
Like, what kind of therapy, was it like ummm. You don't have to go into that if it's like super...
Conversion therapy?
Essentially like conversion therapy, right?
Uh, huh.
What did they do?
They basically told me...
Dainty ankles and women's body parts.
It wasn't that bad. But they basically told me that it was a learned, like being attracted to men was a learned behavior. And I just had to learn to be attracted to women. And I only went to two sessions, because it made me so uncomfortable. And I had already read a bunch of books about how people become gay and how to fix it. That as he was talking, I was like, Oh, this is what he's trying to do. And I had already come to a conclusion that it
didn't work. So it's basically like classical conditioning.
I also want to be like, you don't think we've tried all those things. I did some I did some weird things to fix my being gay. I'm not gonna go into right now.
But that's one of the nice, you know, those people who kind of reinforced my shame like my dad never meant to. But realizing what, what that had done, he has apologized a number of times, and a lot of people have been so kind and apologized for a lot of things that they, they didn't mean they were just trying to be helpful.
Gosh dang.
Being ashamed of myself for being gay also affected the way I treated other people, especially other gay people. So I remember I was friends with a kid in high school, and he came out senior year, and I completely cut him off, and would make fun of him and just like try to be on like, the macho, masculine, homophobic side of that, like on purpose because I was so, I kind of like you were saying, you don't want
anybody like, onto you. But also, I figured if I push so much hatred towards LGBTQ people, then that would somehow I don't know, it's a flawed mentality. But that's what I was doing. You know?
It's the idea of like, being something you're so ashamed of, when you have it manifest in front of you I bet you that like vitriol and that anger can like go towards that.
Exactly.
Like the idea of like hating, or hating behavior about yourself and then hating people that, like, you know, exhibit that type of behavior.
Yeah.
I mean, what do we call that internalized homophobia?
Yeah, exactly.
You know what I mean? Where it's like, I have fought so hard to be something I am not that I like, hate that aspect. And breaking down those walls is not easy. It's not and I'm still trying to figure it out. But I do have some theories that worked for my own life. Please consult a professional. I don't know it's not that bad. But um, I have a theory that like, like, so embracing yourself, it's
absolutely necessary. And embracing yourself I define it as the internalized process of learning who you are and on, like learning about like, what do you like, you know, learning preferences and like, what you need to be healthy. It's like learning if you're an introvert or extrovert. It's like learning about yourself and like your preferences, right? Embracing yourself. And then I think authenticity is the outward expression of that internal process. So you learn about yourself and then to be
congruent you act that way. You know what I mean? Like, if you don't like carrots, and you're eating carrots to impress someone else, you're gonna experience an incongruity. You're gonna experience some dissonance and I don't think our, we want that. I think we have we crave being like, in line with our inner and outside expression, our you know, embracing ourselves and being
authentic. And so I think, for me, it's been really helpful as I've tried to like learn more about myself, like finally get to a place where I'm like, I don't have to be afraid of the these parts of myself or hate them. And then as I try to honor that by living in a way that reflects that, I think that's been really helpful for me.
And sometimes you get positive, a lot of times I've gotten positive reinforcement. Reinforcement, like people accept me as I am like, without hiding anything. And then that helps me be more of myself and feel more comfortable.
Like you like baking, but you don't bake because you feel like it might out you as being gay or might make you look more feminine.
Exactly.
Nah, playa....
I don't like baking.
You will be happy baking unless you're Ben. Yeah, no, but you know what I mean? Like, don't, don't edit yourself because of any external pressures. Don't be the Venus Flytrap man.
This is really interesting. Because I wonder, you know, we want to be like, have this internal sense of self worth and not something that's external. And I'm wondering, like, how much of my sense of like internal self worth was facilitated by people on the outside, seeing me as the way I needed to be seen, because I think one of the things that's helped me most with my shame is coming out to people. And then, and then them responding well.
Like these awful ideas I had, about how people were going to respond, never came true in my case. And I wonder how I would be different with my sense of internal self worth, if that hadn't happened.
And the easiest people for me to come out to were the people that I was already closest to my true self. Like my little sister was so easy to come out to, because I never really felt the pressure to hide me.
Hmm. That's really cool.
Yeah,
I do think, I do think that can be super helpful. Like, I think for sure, there's things that I feel about myself that maybe I'm like, a little insecure about, but my friends that are like, very validating in some ways. And so if it's like really helpful. My only fear is when it becomes your, your means of gauging, you know what I mean, your worth, is like, oof, that stuff can
switch. I think you're right, I, there are a lot of things that I feel about myself that comes from feedback and external means. So...
Before we started, you were talking about community, and how you like building community and
I love building community. I'm going to build a community one day.
I'm just happy that there is more like, this is a shared experience for all of us.
Yeah.
Shame, internalized homophobia, really having to work to to be okay with who we are just because we are ourselves. You know, and so, I'm just thinking about anybody out there listening, that might kind of be you know, I used to listen to things and say, "Oh, gosh, me too. Oh, me too. Me too."
Listening in secret?
Yeah. And that's so nice. And I just hope everyone knows that these aren't, these feelings aren't uncommon. You're not alone. It's like in Dear Evan Hansen. Like you're not alone. Now, we're all gonna start crying.
Didn't you just watch that?
I've seen it a lot.
Oh, you're in New York.
Yeah, I've watched it many, many times.
Oh, man. And that's, I think you were like, spot on. It's like, you're not alone in this. And like, and I come from, like, I very much believe in God. And I know everyone doesn't. And that's totally fine. And I'm so sorry, if this feels like really pushy, but like, at the end of the day, you just know that like, at least for me, it's so helpful to know that someone knows exactly what I've gone through. And I can't hide it from if I wanted to, you
know what I mean? Yeah, it's like, they just know exactly what I've gone through. And then open that up a little bit more. And there people that are going through similar experiences I'm going through like, like you just said, like, right now we have, we know what it's like. And maybe we don't have, we didn't live the exact same lives, we can relate.
And there's echoes for sure.
You guys out there. Listen, we get it. We do.
Yeah. Any other things you guys did to help you work through these feelings of shame, like things that we can encourage people to do?
I sought a lot of resources, when I finally got to the point where I just couldn't take it anymore. And I realized that it was affecting my ability to connect with people and I couldn't sleep at night, and all of these things were just piled on me. I reached out and I found a therapist, and I started reading blogs. Ben has a great blog.
You didn't read mine, though.
Did you not?
No.
It's fine.
And and doing and like, obviously, my own pace, what I was comfortable with but kind of reaching out and looking at different perspectives and trying to find, build community, I guess. Yeah.
That's like, I like, really smart, very much second, that. It's really great that there's like things to find about people in similar places. And there wasn't a ton. I always tell people, it's like, there's no manual written for us. You get in the church and you're like, Where's my strength of youth pamphlet? Because the rules are different. Let me tell you, you know, but yeah, I like reached, I like read a lot of stuff. I'd be secretly like looking at Mormons and Gays.
Yeah. It came out when I was on my mission, and like, it was kind of like a big, like "ooooo Mormon and gay" all the elders, you know. And it was one of the approved websites. And on P day, I would just like, "Should I do it?" It took me so many days to actually go to the page. And I was like, had it hidden in a tab and I was like, reading and then I'm like, "Oh, I'm just emailing my mom over here."
And them seeing your shady behavior trying to figure out what you're up to.
Exactly.
It's nothing.
One of the things that I started to do was I stopped, I learned to filter myself less when it came to my orientation. So for example, there's a show you know, like many shows, there was a woman who was in a love triangle with two men and people would talk about "Oh, does she like, are you more team so and so or team so and so?" I'm not talking about Twilight. I'm talking about Jane The Virgin. And...
I thought it was Twilight.
...and I would watch with my friends and I would share my opinions and like that was really nice to be like, Well, I think this person is attractive or a better fit. And, and we were just able to have this conversation about who I was attracted to, and which personality I preferred and, and that really helped to get rid of a lot of my feelings of shame.
You know what I, so when I came out to my family I was, I was like, I'll be danged if I am, if this becomes uncle Stacey's secret. I was like, I will not have my sexuality be taboo in family conversations. So I brought it up a lot. I was like, well, the goal, and I know it was so annoying, but the goal was to normalize it for my family. I wanted them to get to the point where they could just like toss it out and feel
comfortable about it. I did a Q&A with my family when I came out because it came out in December. And then I went home for Christmas. I purposely came out before so I could like face them all. Like all my old ward family. But I did a Q&A. And I was like any question goes. I got some weird questions, y'all. But it was really cool.
But that's cool. Because you can get it out of the way.
It was. Yeah, it was like we normalize it and every time on the phone my parents now I'm like, "Yeah, dating the guy or not dating a guy if you know someone." But then it's like those those elements of like not editing yourself. I was like, "Where was I going with that?"
Yeah and I think just like normalizing it helps to reduce shame so much.
Yeah like talking about it and having a safe place to talk about it. I, I teach a spin class. This is like barely, I feel like I'm really...
That's pretty gay.
...who I am. Yeah, right. I like it's one of those things where I look back and I'm like, oh, there are some stereotypes that I don't even realize. Like houseplants I love them.
I decorate cakes. So...
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Okay, let's join powers and eat cake and spin.
I eat cakes. And I've been to a spin class.
Is that gay because I'm sure most gay people have eaten cake too. Straight people write in and tell us. But I teach a indoor spin class a couple and one of the times I teach a lot of moms come to and I always like share experiences because I want to be like, I'm like motivating, we have a good time, whatever. But I do not talk about my sexuality because I'm so like, I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable. And but like one day, I kind of like started talking about something
and then I like edited it. And I know someone like responded and the next spin class all these moms showed up with rainbow socks to show support. They were like, "We love you as you are" and I, it. got. me. And it was like a good reminder where it's like, I don't need to be editing myself. I don't need to be like jumping through these hoops. Yeah, it was it was really like barely happened. I like Instagrammed about it.
That's so cute.
I'm like, they're too great.
Yeah, it's really interesting because all of us want to have this internal locus of control, like this internal sense of self worth. At the same time, I think all of us are affected by what happens on the outside and people say anything on the outside and so someone who who knows an LGBTQ person can really help them by, by being validating and wearing rainbow socks to spin class.
Dude, being an ally can sometimes take so little, just letting yourself be known as a safe place. I had a friend once one of my best friends was just like, we were talking once and he was like yeah, I know this gay guy. He was really cool. And I was like, that's like all it took.
Yeah, that's it.
It's like what a nice person.
It's like a flag like this person says I can be me.
Exactly.
Yeah. and not have to worry about repercussions or...
And I think that's like the tough thing is like external means do affect us so much. That that's, that's what makes it so hard to like build that like internal resistance. To be a ZZ plant. I'm still working on it. You know?
Yeah.
I will say that like the shame I, there were habits I had before I came out that like I don't have any more, like really bad, like habits that I felt were really negative. And this is not the same for everyone but things that I would like because of the shame like I over, I over ate like crazy. Food was like one of my go tos.
Yeah.
And like after coming out, I'm not saying this is the case for everyone. I don't, I don't do, I don't eat, I don't turn to food in my times of trouble anymore. It's, it's like a treated.
There's no, there's less of a coping mechanism because there's not as much to cope with.
Yeah, there's not as much to cope with.
And so it's not about what you were eating. It was about what was eating you.
Oh Ben.
Put that on a t-shirt.
He's a therapist.
Market that.
You heard it here first.
I still love food, though. So I'll throw that out there. So don't walk up to me in a restaurant if you see me going to town on some crab legs.
Like Stacey, where is your shame?
I thought you said....
He really is shameless.
He really is shameless. Listen here, buckaroonies, and allies of the buckaroonies, I, it's like so important for me to like express to people how valuable they are, how important they are. And I think really believing that and like I feel like embracing yourself and being authentic that and like believing your worth is like a great way to do that. How? Man there's so many different ways I wish you the best. I've shared some that I've, that have helped me. But you must know we are the
LGBTQ community. We are, there are a lot of us out there. But we're kind of rare. We're not the majority. And rare things are precious and like valuable. And they're, and like, you are so important. And your perspectives are just like so necessary. And what you bring to the table is like, of immense value. And I cannot express that enough. I believe it
wholeheartedly. And I think helping, walking in that direction of trying to understand why that's a thing can really help you, you know, value yourself a little bit more.
Yeah. What you said reminded me of something someone told me once that, "We think that, as humans we think that things that are differen are beautiful." Like people go he the Grand Canyon, becau e it's different, and it's bea tiful. And if we're you know, just a small percentage of the population, that's so ething that makes us bea tiful.
That's beautiful. You're rare. You're precious. You're expensive, I'm going to keep going.
That's great.
I believe it.
Well, Stacey, thank you so much for joining us today. And everyone else. Thank you for joining us today. Please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We're not trying to be prescriptive, or tell anyone what to think or do.
Today you h ard three perspectives and there are many, many more. We encour ge you to listen to other voice and hear a wide variety of ex eriences. If you would like t submit a question or share a comment about today's episod , you can email us at question fromthecloset@gmail.com. Unt l nex