Welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.
And I'm Charlie Bird. Each episode, we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to consensus, but simply sharing our perspectives.
Today's question is, how do I navigate conflicting feelings about the Family Proclamation?
So Charlie and I are not terribly diverse, and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both love to travel. And have been to many of the same places.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, I love going to museums when I travel, and Ben hates going to museums.
I really do hate going to museums. I when I was in Paris, my friend and I went to the Louvre for two hours, and we would have gotten out faster, but it is very big. And we got very lost.
Oh my gosh, I'm crying inside. I could spend, I could spend like seven years and still not be done with it.
And you know, I know a lot of people are like that. I'm just not a museum guy. So yeah, I mean, to me, good artwork is Greg Olson. No, I'm just kidding. But when I'm traveling, my very favorite thing to do is like rent a bike and like bike around a foreign city. I want to do that.
That is nice. I like to do that, too.
So we would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. So today, we're joined by John Gustav-Wrathall.
Hello.
Before before we have John introduce himself, I just want to tell a little personal experience I had with him. So before I had met John, I had heard of him. And one of my first experiences hearing about John was a talk that Tom Kristofferson gave at a "Circling the Wagons" event. Tom told his story about how he had gotten excommunicated, and had been in a same sex partnership for decades, and then how he
came back to church. And then he told your story, John, and how and how you had also been excommunicated and been in a committed partnership, and a marriage for for decades, and then you had also returned to the church. And I remember hearing both of your stories while I was like cleaning my house one day, and just feeling the spirit telling me saying like, "Ben, if you left the church, you would come back too. Just stay the whole time." So before I met you, John, you were
already inspiring me. And I just think that you're a person of great faith, who I really admire.
Well, thank you, Ben. That means a lot to me since you're a person who really inspires me as well.
Well, tell us a little a little bit about yourself, John.
Well, I was born in Provo, Utah. I grew up in the Rochester New York area, born and raised in the church. We just grew up in a very, very loving and devout home. I served a mission for the church in the Swiss Geneva mission, went to BYU as a Kimball scholar.
Go Cougars.
Oh my gosh, you must have been so smart!
Not a flex, there...
That's what they told me. There's kind of an interesting story about that. Because actually, when I found out that they had selected me I, I felt so unworthy of this honor that I actually wrote a letter to a member of the committee and told him that I didn't think I deserved it.
Why?
And fortunately, he ignored me. So yeah. After my third year at BYU, after a very close call with with suicide, I left BYU and ultimately, I resigned from the church and was away for 19 years. And during which time I met my husband, and then had a really undeniable spiritual experience in the summer of 2005 and began attending my ward. And it's been an interesting journey since then. Served in the leadership of Affirmation for seven years
now. Have recently launched brand new ministry called " mmaus" with Erica Munson and alerie Green. We're sort of t e founders. Our hope is to fost r more effective ministry to a d with LGBTQ individuals and the r families in and adjacent to t e Church of Jesus Christ of Latt r-day Saint
Well, John, you do a lot of great work and I am just super grateful to get to know you. And so today we're talking about the
A Proclamation to the World" that can often be difficult for LGBTQ members. You know, as we were talking about this episode, I'm a little nervous about it honestly, just because to a lot of people the Proclamation is is inspired of God and and His word to His people today. And to other people it's, it's a document that that is painful and hard, and that causes a lot of sorrow. So we know there are gonna be people on different sides and and we just are here
to share our perspective. We're not telling anyone what to do or how to interpret things. You're gonna talk a little bit about the history of the Proclamation?
A Proclamation to the World" was 1995 statement issued by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It kind of tells the church's official positions on family and marriage and gender roles. And it was first announced by Gordon B. Hinckley, who was the Prophet at the time, in the church's General Relief Society meeting. So that's just for a little bit of context, I'm pretty sure everyone knows, like, if you're listening to the podcast, you're probably very familiar with The
Family Proclamation. It's on like every wall, anyone who's married gets a copy in the temple. It's, it's, it's very popular. So I, I almost feel a little bit silly for telling people what it is. But I wanted to do that. Historical context is very important for me. So it just, it kind of helps me because like, when this came out, I was two years old, I was born in '93. So I was like one and a half or two years old.
Some people remember when the Proclamation was given, but to me, it's just like, always been part of my life. So it's just kind of fun to have that historical context. And I also didn't know until pretty recently that it was given at the General Relief Society meeting, I guess I just didn't really know where it came from. I just knew it was on the wall.
Yeah. Well, it came out when I during the time when I was away from the church. So it was waiting there to greet me when I came back.
Well, John, you are in a same sex marriage with your husband. Tell us how you relate to the Proclamation.
I remember the first time I read the Proclamation on the Family, my gut reaction being there's a lot of good stuff in here. It gives us an important piece, but it doesn't tell us everything. I interpret everything in the church, and everything really, that gets thrown at me in my life through the Urim and Thummim of my relationship with God in the context of that relationship and, and knowledge that God has of me and that I have of God. I know there's a place for me.
When I run into these lacunae in, in the churches teaching.
John, that word I don't know, can you tell?
I don't know it either. He's a Kimball scholar.
It means it means a hole, you know, a hole, an empty space. And, you know, I think that one of the great challenges if you are gay or lesbian, or bi or trans or or if you identify as gender non-binary, or queer or whatever, however you identify in terms of your sexual orientation, or your gender identity, one of the challenges if you're, you know, if you have a testimony of the gospel, is that there are these big unanswered questions. You know, these big holes, you know, why
why, why is this? Why am I this way? Why did this happen to me? Sometimes we get answers, and sometimes really, the only or the best answer is "I don't know." Because all the ones that have been proposed, you know, that, that people have tried to come up with to explain it either are harmful or just are not, you know, they don't harmonize with my lived experience. I read a document like The Proclamation on the Family and I think, well, this
is this is good. I, there are parts of myself that I see in here. But for the most part, my gut reaction was just this doesn't really address my situation. It tells us important things about family. And, you know, it says some things about men and women that I don't know if it holds up, because I think men are nurturers and women are providers too. To me, it just doesn't seem truthful to say that our roles are so defined in
this in this way. But But I think what's really important is that families are critical. They're absolutely crucial to our progression, our spiritual progression. And the bonds between parents and children and the bonds that connect parents are, are just so crucial and so important. And the Proclamation does speak to that, you know, so I, so I resonate very much with that.
So John, what I'm hearing you say is, you don't really see your relationship with your husband in the Proclamation, but to you that doesn't really matter. Because there's still a lot of unknown, but what you do know is what your relationship with God is like?
Well, you know, that's the thing, though, is I've had plenty of experience. I mean, I've been attending church for, like 15 years now. So I've sat sat through many a priesthood lesson, where we've talked about, you know, the relationship between a husband and a wife and about the relationship between parents and children, what it means to be a good spouse and what it means to
be a good parent. And these are lessons that I absolutely relate to, and that I take right home and apply in my relationship with my husband. And so I've never sat through one of those lessons and felt like this is completely irrelevant to me. So I can just turn turn my mind and heart off. You know, it's similar with the Proclamation. There's definitely aspects of that, that I relate to very
strongly. But there's the piece about "a man and a woman," you know, that's where I kind of feel like--the church is speaking to what it knows, or what it knew. And it's, it's not speaking to what we don't know. So it doesn't worry me. It doesn't make me angry. It doesn't make me feel like I gotta, I gotta pitch the church because it doesn't have the answer this particular question.
John, I really respect that. And I think it's a very wise way to live. I mean, there's a lot of things just about life in general that cause friction. But I feel like there's good in everything, or at least you can look for good. And I think it's really cool that you were, you take the Proclamation kind of at that level. And we've been talking about sitting in different lessons, where most--a lot of people will feel isolated or
left out. And just to realize that there's still truth and goodness, you can glean from that experience, and to just kind of like, take the good, and whatever causes like, harm or dissonance, maybe just kind of, like, leave that where it is. And I feel like that's a very, like, positive way to live. That's really cool.
Well, you know, for me, it's, it's kind of the only way to live. You know, I had an insight the other day, and that was just "John," this is, this is the Lord speaking to me, "John, this is going to require patience. And I've taught you about patience, you know what patience is, and so you can apply it in this situation." And so that's, that's what I am doing now, you know, during this very, very difficult time that we're passing through as a
nation. You know, it's just like, there's no value really in freaking out.
Ben, what's your relationship with the Family Proclamation like?
Well, I'll share one quick experience. So when I moved to Tucson in 2012, to do graduate work at the University of Arizona, I gave one of my colleagues a ride home one day, and he wasn't a member of the church, wasn't super familiar with the church. And so he asked me what the church's stance was on same sex marriage. And I quoted to him the Family
"We believe that marriage is only between a man and a woman." And he was very kind and respectful of that. And then when I got home, I decided to write him an email to just kind of follow up and share some of my thoughts. And I pulled up the Proclamation to show him this, this line that says that marriage is only between a man and a woman. And I didn't find that, which honestly shocked me, because that's how it always been taught to me.
Like, this document shows that marriage is only only between a man and a woman. And so what it does say is marriage between a man and woman is ordained of God, "We solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and woman is ordained of God, that the family is central to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of his children." And then it reiterates that teaching later on, it says "The family is ordained of God, marriage between a man and woman is essential to his eternal plan."
And that really got my my gears going, thinking, you know, okay, so marriage between a man or woman is ordained of God, and it is central to his plan. And I thought about like, my own family. Like I come from a, I mean, we're not a picture perfect family, but we're pretty ideal. You know, I have two parents who love me and care about me, and who were just like, so active and involved in
my life. And so I feel like like, as a child, like I was raised in, in the best situation that child of God could ask for, honestly. And I mean, that like the best situation possible. And so as I see the principles stated in the, in the Proclamation about, you know, what, what good parents do, you know, "husbands and wives are responsible to care for each other, and to love each other." Like, I saw that, and "they're responsible to teach their
children." And I saw that and, and as you know, mother, like my mother was nurturing my dad provided for us. And my mom also provided. There was a time where she made a lot more money than my dad. And, and their roles were a little reversed, like when my dad started working from home when I was a kid. And so he was the one who took me to doctors and took care of me when I was sick at home, you know. Those roles changed a little bit. But to me, the Proclamation
wasn't really a tough thing. It honestly really never has been. Just because I've I've always seen that, like the family I'm part of in it. And the hard thing now is when people--like I personally like when I read the Proclamation, I don't feel angst, I don't feel anger, I don't feel hurt. I don't feel like it's attacking me. But I feel like people have used it to attack me. And that that has
been a hard thing. So the actual words in the Proclamation to me personally, have never been hard, especially once I actually started studying them. And I started to pull apart--well, this is what the Proclamation says. And this is what it doesn't say. And so when I focus on what it actually says, and not how it's been interpreted and used to attack me, I think to me, it's actually been a document that has not caused me any problems. How about you, Charlie?
I resonate with that a lot. I think it's interesting because growing up the Proclamation was kind of like the like a physical manifestation of the love I had for my family. It's like it it's somehow like, it's become like a cultural icon of, of a family unit, right? And so like, we have one in my home, and it just reminded, like seeing that document on the wall, but it made me think of how much I love my family. And then my parents
got divorced. And then all of a sudden, like, my family didn't really fit The Proclamation and like, the way that I thought the family was supposed to be was no longer my family. And so I think, from kind of like a young age, I was dealing with, like, conflicting feelings about the Proclamation and how me and my family would even fit into that.
That being said, I remember the first time I actually remember very vividly the first time it was was ever used, like you were saying, as a weapon against LGBTQ people. It was in 2008, when the church was involved in Proposition Eight in California. I was in, let's see, how would I have been? Maybe like 13 or 14, and I was in a Sunday school lesson. And the Sunday school lesson was about how gay
marriage was wrong. And the whole hour was about how, like "sign of the times" Proposition Eight, Family Proclamation, like, like the takeaway I got from the lesson was that the prophets had foreseen the evil of gay marriage and that I needed to shun gay people, even more than I already was. It was really interesting. Like, I have a lot of interesting dynamics with this document and how it affected like my family unit. But also me personally, I used it to weaponize like against
myself. So I don't know maybe people can relate to that. And then growing up now that I'm like, out, and I'm openly gay, I have felt what Ben saying a lot. Like the words themselves don't really jar me because like, I'm like, yeah, marriage is so beautiful. And I love when a man and a woman create life and have a family unit and can like create a beautiful Christ inner dynamic in the home. Like, that
is so wonderful to me. But I have had it used and quoted and like sent to me in messages, trying to like disqualify my feelings or tell me that me coming out was wrong. And that I'm like, toying too close to the edge. And that's, that's really, I don't know, that's harmful. And I think the purpose of the church or the purpose of the gospel is never really to isolate or judge another person.
So if we're using this Proclamation to do that, we might kind of need to check the purpose of it, and also our intentions.
You know, Ben, you triggered something for me. And it reminded me very much of my reaction when I actually read the document, because I remember reading those statements about and thinking, "Yes, amen. Amen." Like, I absolutely believe that marriage between a man and a woman is is ordained of God and families ordained of God, and so on. So it wasn't that I necessarily took issue with anything that was overtly stated
in there. It's just, I thought, there's more to this story that's not being--that isn't here. There's tons of stuff in the church that can be taken and weaponized. I mean, I think one of the things that was really powerful for me about coming back to the church was that I was I had a sort of Sunday school narrative in my head, about what the Scriptures said, that had sort of been inculcated into me from, you know, the time
that I was very young. And then I had spent 19 years away from the church, learning a lot of things and being active in other churches and exploring other forms of spirituality. And I came back because I had this very powerful spiritual experience where it was just this undeniable, like the Lord was saying, "You need to go back." In my head, I just, I doubted everything. I was pretty sure that the church was false. Right? And I was like, but God wants me to go back for some
reason. I remember just having a really profound spiritual experience around, "You need to read the Book of Mormon," because I hadn't really been, you know, doing that up until that point. I had just been going to church on Sunday. And, you know, I had this old tattered book that somebody had given me as a joke that they'd picked up at some garage sale, and it was like, published in like, 1958, or something like that. And so it was like, literally falling apart in my
hands. It was the only Book of Mormon, I had in the house. And so I, I sat down with this thing on my lap, and I, I was like, I can't just start reading this, I have to pray first. This incredible spiritual experience. And one of the things that was
I'm going to read this book and see if it's relevant to me now. In light of everything I know about being you know, away from the church and all the experiences I've gone through and now being In a committed same sex relationship, like, does this book have any significance or any meaning to me now? Every page was just full of--I mean, I still have all of the notes that I kept from that first time read, you know, reading the Book of Mormon again, real and it felt like for the first time in
many ways. And you know, what I've learned from this experience is what people think the Scriptures say, and what the Scriptures actually say, is often two completely different things. So we owe it to ourselves to put out of our heads, the things that people tell us, we're supposed to think, just interact directly with God and with the scriptures and see what they say to us. And, and let that be our guide. And, you know, that's, that's how I approach the scriptures.
It's how I approach the Proclamation of the Family as well.
Yeah, John, I love that. Because what I what I see you doing is not letting like, hurt or even disbelief, keep you from engaging with God, and really let him teach you. Just a thought I've had, as I've been reflecting on what the Proclamation teaches during our conversation--you know, I really love that it you know, it starts out by saying that, like, we are children of heavenly parents, they love us, and we're supposed
to become like them. And then the whole document, you know, it just talks about, you know, this is the life of our father and mother. And it's meant for their children too. Like this was meant for us too. And you know, that thought about, you know, we don't know much about our Heavenly Mother. But if a woman's role as stated the Proclamation is primarily, she's primarily responsible for the nurture for children, then that means that our Heavenly Mother is primarily responsible for our
nurturing. And like, what do we know about that? Like, how does that work? Like, we don't know. Like, there's still so much more that we don't know. As, as I've as I pondered those words, in the, in the Proclamation about, you know, about how this is how God the Mother and God the Father live, and that's how we're supposed to live too. It just kind of like, to me it's it's soul expanding, and it makes me want to be someone who, who can live a godlike life,
Right. Well, that, for me, even the first lines about being a beloved child of God is so integral. And it's so funny, because I mean, I grew up hearing that over and over and over again, but I never really believed it, because I always thought I was a mistake, right? I thought, because I was attracted to the same gender, that something about me was like, wrong. And so in that line, as like, all parts of me, like, I'm a son of God, like, there's beauty, there's divinity
to me. And so I don't know, that's just a nice thought I had while Ben was saying that, because, because that truth was something I needed to learn. And it was there in the Family Proclamation, which I have conflicting feelings about, you
know. But it's like, if, if you just like, I guess, like, John, you were saying, to take your mind or your scripture study or your faith outside of the restraints of like society, and just really dig in and figure out what you need from God, how you need to connect, and all of these, I don't know, answers that you were talking about? If if we can, I think I mean, I agree with you, when you were saying that the safest answer is
often "I don't know." But I also kind of want to add to that and say, once you get into those, "I don't know" spaces, that's where personal revelation can really kick in. And you can develop a relationship with heaven, and you can find answers specifically for you. And that's just a really beautiful thing. Well, and there's also even a line that that says that different circumstances may necessitate individual
adaptation. And I think it's funny because initially, like the first times I read that, I was like, oh, there's a couple families who don't fit this. But kind of like, that's EVERYONE like that is a very important line and, and no one is like, perfectly in line with whatever we think the "ideal family" is not even your family, Ben!
The Schilaty's are perfect.
Like individual adaptation, personal revelation, that's so important, and we can't discount that.
Well, so here's what's really damaging is when you are either explicitly or implicitly given a message of: "If your family doesn't look like this, there's something wrong with you. You must have done something wrong if your family doesn't look like this." That's such a damaging message, especially when most families don't look like that.
You know, John, I, I've spent a lot of my time in life as a prideful person. I think we can all relate. But but for a while, you know, the Proclamation to me was kinda like like a pat on the back. Like look at how good my family of origin is, like, we follow all these principles. Like why can't other people be be like be like us? And and, and I think that was like such a damaging
thing for me to believe. And and then I like after this experience I had with with this with this colleague of mine at the University of Arizona, when I realized that it that it didn't say--well, what it said was that "marriage between a man and woman is ordained of God" and I thought, well, is it? Is it an either or? Is it a yes and? Like, could there be other kinds of families that are also valid and also good, and that gave me a lot of time, like think and ponder and also get my
mind expanded. And John, I think if I had met you, when I was like, 27, I would have, I would have just, like, rejected you, as someone who needed to change his life. I honestly, I really think that's how I would have responded. And I am so grateful that I have had enough experiences
Same where I've realized that that the family, like the family of God, includes all of us and includes all of God's children, and I am not supposed to reject you, or think that you are less worthy or less valid than I am. And like, honestly, like, had I done that, like--John, you you, like, shaped the course of my life before I even met you. And you know, how much poorer are w , if we if we discount peop e because they're not living n this box? When when when I thi
k most of us don't? If someo e came to you, someone who who s gay, and wants to be active n the church, but was just feeli g so much pain, because t e Proclamation, like what, wha what piece of advice would yo give to them
Well, first of all, that happens all the time. Right? You know, I'll just acknowledge first up that LGBTQ people are put in, in such a painful position, not because the church is so terrible, but because the church is so wonderful.
How do you mean?
Well, because to have to choose between the wonderful good of the church, and, and the gospel, and the wonderful good, of your sexuality, your your, your God given identity, that's a terrible choice. And there are a lot of people who are just like really profoundly in pain. When I've had those kinds of conversations in the past, my approach is really to try to tease out from them where they need to be. I've been practicing
yoga for years. And my yoga instructors talk about the difference between discomfort and pain. And they say pain is bad. If, if you're experiencing pain back out of that posture. It's it's not a good posture, if you're experiencing pain, because it probably means you're hurting yourself. But discomfort is good. Right? We move through discomfort and and we breathe through discomfort and we, we learn we learn from it, right?
Discomfort and pain teaches us too, but discomfort can can teach us and so if you're in one of those situations where you're in discomfort, but you can breathe through it, then hey, I have some breathing techniques for you. My breathing technique is prayer. Right? I mean, ultimately, like that's how I I breathe through discomfort--how I get through discomfort is prayer, and, and studying the scriptures and, and trying to be
close to God. But if you're in pain, and you're hurting yourself, usually a sign of that is if you're you know, if you're experiencing like some severe form of depression, if you're thinking self harmful thoughts--those are signs that you're doing damage. And you know what? It's okay to back
away. And, you know, I was really lucky, I had a dad and I remember this moment--and I just remember it clearly as if it were yesterday--we're sitting in an church getting ready for sacrament meeting, my dad sort of leans over to me, and he says, he says, "You are going to have to figure out for yourself if the church is true or not." And this was the part that stunned me, is his he said, "If you need to leave the church and explore other things, you can do
that." It is kind of a stunning thing for my dad to say to me. And it was a powerful testimony of my dad's trust in the Gospel. Because my dad trusted that the the gospel was bigger and more powerful than anything that we do. So if we need to take time away, if we need to explore if we need to try other things on for size. If there's truth in the Gospel, it will bring us back. We need to really believe in the truth and in the power of the Atonement, and in the power
of truth. So, yeah, that's what I would tell anybody. Like I I think one of the most damaging things is for people to feel like they have no choice.
And that that's so in line with the teachings of the gospel lik, God gives us choice. He gives us agency and if we feel like we have no choice, that idea that thought is not coming from a place of light or goodness.
That's absolutely right. People feel imprisoned in the church. And I because I remember having this kind of mentality of "if I ever leave the church, I'm going to be horribly miserable." And so I thought " I can't," like I have no choice. And, and that sense of like, "no choiced-ness," like, that was what was driving me towards suicide. Because then I was kind of like, I have no choice, and I'm in this place of unbearable pain, and ...
You feel cornered,
Right? You are trapped. And it's such a damning...
And how do you get out?
Right? And, and so lacking really, ultimately, in, like, again, if the gospel has value, if the gospel has truth, it will, it will hold its own, against whatever we can bring to it. And so, you know, sometimes I feel like everybody in the church ought to take a "church vacation," if only just to see what things are like--in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, or in the Roman Catholic Church, or, you know, in the near local, reformed Jewish synagogue, or the
Buddhist temple. Like, those experiences can only enrich our faith, that's, that's been my experience. So to anybody who's in pain, and who, to anybody who's really struggling, I'd say it's okay to let it go. Like, if you think that the Proclamation is just this, you know, horrible, evil, damaging oppressive document, nobody's forcing you to hold on to this thing, like, let it go, go do something else, and then see,
you know, see what you find. And I think that's the best thing any of us can do is to just embrace our agency.
I think it's important to note or something that has helped me reconcile my conflicting feelings about the Family Proclamation is that this document is not the anchor of my testimony. It's not the keystone of my religion, it's very important. It has beautiful, eternal truths given through the
mouth of a prophet. But if we're not focused on Jesus Christ, we're missing the mark, and something's always going to feel empty there, there's always going to be a sense of, of, then there needs to be more like that--you can't like connect if you're not focused on Jesus
Christ. And so I think, you know, sometimes culturally, especially like me, at my age, as all my friends are getting married, and like, just like marriages all around me, culturally, the Proclamation has kind of become like, the crowning jewel of the church and of the religion and I was like, this age bracket that I'm in right now. But I think you kind of miss out on a lot if you're only focused on that. And, and to me, the crowning jewel, at least of my testimony is the
love of Jesus Christ. And that's something that anchors me and helps me to sit and breathe through these discomfort, uncomfortable situations that that John was talking about.
And Charlie, I like that you shared that because the truth is, all three of us aren't really living the principles in the Proclamation, if you will, because, you know, John, you're in a same sex marriage. Charlie and I are both single. And, you know, like, personally, like, I have no plans to get married. And so I'm not I'm not really following the principles either. And yet, you know, as I as I turned to Jesus Christ....
That just sounds funny. And I was just imagining me making that snippet like this snippet, we share of the podcast, "We're not really following the principles.." Sorry, to break your train of thought.
Okay, thank you for making fun of me. But, but but my point is that, you know, even though, you know, I'm single and not searching for a wife, and I'm not gonna have kids, you know, as I focus on my relationship with, with my Heavenly Parents, and with my earthly parents, and my and the people around me, who are all part of my family, and as I focus on Jesus Christ, like all like, my life becomes really beautiful and really wonderful
and really meaningful. And I don't have to worry about the fact that I'm not sealed to a partner for eternity. Because right now, that's not the focus. You know, right now, the focus is to become like Jesus Christ. And I feel like God has put me in circumstances and with people that helped that that helped me to achieve that goal.
Amen to that.
It's very nice.
Amen to that. Yeah. There's so much there's so much that we can do just to become Christ-like. If the only thing we focus on our life is to have more patience, to have more love, to look for where there's pain and then to bring healing and love to those situations, if that's all we focus on in our lives, that's such a huge work.
Like there's so many people who go through life and never really learn what it means to be selfless, that that pretty much teaches us everything we need to know about what we need to be. And all three of us can work on that regardless of what our marital status is.
Yeah.
Well, John, thank you so much for being on the podcast today and for sharing your thoughts and your life. And I have just always found to be someone who is inspirational and I just, we just really appreciate your time.
Thank you. Wonderful conversation.
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