Welcome to Questions from the Closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.
And I'm Charlie Bird. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, how do I figure everything out?
Ben and I are not terribly diverse and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both laugh a lot and very loudly.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, Charlie snorks when he laughs. It's very endearing Charlie.
Thank you. Well, I feel like I have either, I have two laughs. I can either honk like a goose or I can snort like a pig. And if I like tamper the honk I snort. And if I tamper the snort then I honk.
But you also have this like inhale laugh kinda.
That's the honk I'm talking about.
That's the honk?
Anyway, you laugh loudly.
I do. I do everything loudly.
Ben scares me all the time. He'll be like, hey, Charlie. Haha.
I'm not trying to scare you.
He's just so jolly and nice. And he laughs so much.
It's true. When I laugh a lot. I like show my gums a lot. I don't know if that's like an evolutionary thing to like, show my dominance. I don't know.
Oh my gosh.
But, but, like if there's a picture of me like laughing at you, like see all of my gums.
Cute.
I don't think it looks good at all. But I can't help it. It just happens naturally.
We like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. So today, we're joined by Joey.
Hey, Joey, tell us about yourself.
I am just about to graduate, BYU with my bachelor's and Family Studies, which is very exciting.
Congraduation.
Thanks. There's not going to be a graduation, sadly, but and then I'm going to be starting my Master's this fall at BYU as well. I'm queer.
You can talk about how you know me.
Oh, you want me to tell the whole story of how we met?
Very briefly. Yes.
Okay. So basically, I'm seeing this therapist. I was having a very hard time my freshman semester at BYU. And he's like, no, like BYU is trying to make it better. And like, how like they have a group of people. Like you should meet this one person. And so I reached out to Ben over Facebook. And he's like, yeah, let's meet up for lunch. And I said, No, I don't want to be seen in public with you.
And I was like, how dare you not want to be seen with me?
I'm like, no way. I did not want to be associated with anyone that was out or had any rainbow on them or anything. I just was so scared. So instead, we met at his very tiny office, and he offered me a nutrigrain bar. It was very nice.
My adjunct office was a, basically a closet with a window. But it was lovely. Yeah. And we used to live together.
We did. Yes.
You actually lived in this very room.
Yes, I did.
Just like on the weekdays.
Yeah.
Yeah. So Joey would come hang out on the weekdays when we went to BYU then he would drive home on the weekends.
Doesn't Joey cut your hair?
Joey used to cut my hair.
I still do occasionally. Whenever like, he gets it cut and he complains and then I have to fix it.
There's actually a funny story. He would just do the
Yes, and then I cut it next time and it looked amazing. sides like amazingly well. The one time he cut the top and lik it did not turn out very well And the next morning, I wa praying and I was like Heavenl Father. I'm grateful that hai grows. I just started laughing Tip do not criticize your hairdresser. Otherwise they'll mess up your hair.
Joey's like, next time I cut your hair Ben, I'm shaving it off.
Yeah. So we're here to talk about what if we don't have things figured out? And Joey, what I invite you to be on the podcast. One things I said he was I was worried that about interviewing you because I thought well, in six months, you might be like, take it down. I've changed my mind.
Yes. And that is exactly right which is why I'm an expert in this topic. Because in six months from now, I might be like, hey, you should take it down except about this topic because we're talking about I don't have anything figured out. So in six months from now, I will still have nothing figured out.
Okay, well, Joey, talk to us about the pressure of like, needing to figure things out.
So around the time that I actually, you know, we met and I met Charlie, shortly thereafter, I was meeting a lot of people in the LGBTQ community, or SSA, or whoever they chose to identify that were also members of the church, or previously members of the church. And so I was meeting all these people, and all of them just seemed really, really grounded. Like they knew what they wanted. Like both of you, you know, you both just had books that just came out recently.
Did we?
Tell me more about that.
And well, the whole point is, I would see books like that, and I would read them. And I would think, gosh, this person has it like figured out. I need to have this figured out and during this time, I was also seeing people who, you know, were like leaving their wives. It was the worst decision ever made. And they never should have done that, entered into the mixed orientation marriage. I was seeing people come back to the church like after 60 years.
And so just seeing all these different stories and just feeling like I need to figure this out right now so that I never have to like, regret a decision that I've made. I need to figure it out right now. And that was like killing me. I was just so exhausted all the time. It was constantly on my mind. I would say that that's when I did the worst in school. I just couldn't focus on anything else just because I felt like for me this felt like that this was a decision that was gonna affect
the rest of my life. I needed to decide now.
Yeah, it's funny to hear you talking from your perspective, because you met me like a week after you met Ben, I think because me and Ben, were both on that group at BYU.
You actually met me on my birthday.
Oh, yeah, I remember that.
Oh, yeah. At that gathering.
Ben was like, "This kid is coming over. And it's his birthday. So be nice to him." And we were like, Okay, go ahead.
He's gay. And no one knows.
It's true. No one knows.
And yeah, no one really did know. It's funny, though because it's interesting to think about you thinking that I had or have everything figured out when like, I also didn't, at all, I was just like, a little further into the process than you were because I'd associated with gay people, like six months more at that period, because I was not out there either. Like, the only people who knew I was gay was like a couple family members and like the people in that group. So...
An interesting, I know, we shouldn't talk about our books all the time. But I was thinking today, like, if I had written my book 10 years ago, like what would it say?
Right.
And like, if I wrote a book 10 years from now, like, what would that say? And I actually started writing a book like 10 years ago. And it was terrible. Like, it was all about, like, how I felt like God was requiring me to suffer for my entire life. I know, it was really sad. I was in a dark place.
Yeah. And now you don't like books like that.
I don't.
Yeah.
So Joey, you look at people like us, and you're like Ben and Charlie, have it all figured out. And you feel like, you feel pressure to feel that way too?
Well, yeah, I think, in my mind, I was thinking, I just have to find the right person. And they're going to tell me what I need to do. And it's going to feel right for me. And so I kept on listening to more and more people's stories. And I kept on meeting more and more people. And I would say there's been many people who helped me along my journey, who helped me try to figure things out. And they would support me in the sense of "Yes, and this is the
right path for you." Whether it being leaving the church, or staying in the church, or staying the church, but still having a same sex partner. They all felt that their journey was also going to be my journey. And so I just was feeling this huge confliction that I needed to make this decision. And ultimately, I came to this point of where I and it like, and this was not an easy process, this was like over the course of two years where I'm like, I need to
choose. And I had this experience where I realized that I didn't need to choose right now. And as soon as I realized that, that I didn't need to make a decision right now that it's okay that like, for example, that I can change the label I use, or change my mind about
things. I felt this like, not just this weight off this, like my shoulders, I really just felt like I could start living, that I could start living without fear that I was doing the wrong thing, that I was making the wrong decision.
Tell us about this experience that got you to a place where you felt it was okay to change your mind.
Well, I think I thought "I've made my decision." And then, throughout that process, I just realized that I actually don't think that that was for me. Yeah. So then I came back to church. It's not like I was gone for that long either. This was like a course of like, three months. And I came back to church. And then after being at church for a few months, I was like, actually, I don't know if I want to be here, either. And then I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, I thought I totally had this
figured out." And I'm gonna be honest, it wasn't necessarily like one experience. But it was like a course of many experiences. Like, for example, some of them were spiritual experiences. And some of them were like, kind of the absence of the Spirit experiences. Like I don't know, Ben, you gave me a blessing once. And that was really a part of it. But I think it really just came down to, I felt the pressure that I needed to make a decision was because everyone kept on asking me all
the time. And I just had all of these people in my life, who I knew that if I made this decision that I would lose them. And that's on both sides of the coin of I would lose people in the church, or I would lose people, my friends in the LGBTQ community. So I just felt like I needed to make a decision now before I lost anyone. And I know it seems like logical, you should already know that you can't control whether or not you
lose people. When I just realized I didn't have to make a decision right now, Ben, I don't know, remember, if you remember this conversation we had, but we were sitting down. And we were talking about how hard it is to be in the church and to be a query Latter-day Saint. And this, just to kind of like live in this weird gray area where you don't feel like there's a lot of guidance. And we were talking and I don't remember
exactly what you said. But I just remember saying "Yes, Ben, but like, what if I just never make a decision?" And you said, "Well, I hope that you lived your life happily", or something along those lines.
That sounds like something I would say.
And, you know, it was just in that moment that I just realized that like, the thing that was tearing me down was like, ruining my life so to say. It wasn't necessarily that I was a queer Latter-day Saint it was that I felt I needed to make
this decision. And as soon as I realized I didn't need to make this decision right now, in this moment, that I could take time to figure it out, that I could change my mind, that in six months from now, I could be like, no, take down the podcast that I did about, you know, when I said, I had everything figured out like that, that's okay. And
that it's okay to change. And that I just want to be able to live my life so that if I never, ever end up making a decision and the end of my life, I'm 80 years old, I can look back and say, you know, I had a wonderful life.
Yeah, thanks for sharing that Joey.
Yeah
I'm glad to give you some good advice once.
Yes, well, I attribute it to the Spirit, you know, it was God speaking through you.
That's fair. Yeah, you know, as I've been thinking back, like, on my own life, because I feel like I'm in like a very settled place right now. But I don't know what the future is gonna look like, like, I don't know, what choices I'll make or what's gonna feel right to me. But I remember when I was 23, I, like gave up on on dating women. And then I felt very prompted to continue dating women. And that was 100% the
right thing for me to do. But then again, it wasn't the thing that, I wasn't going to end up marrying a woman. And once again, like with Jordan, I felt prompted to date Jordan. And so you know, it's interesting, I feel like there have been these times where I've, like made really different shifts in how I'm living. And, you know, if I were to like, say, at one point, like, Okay, this is what I'm going to do forever. That, I just, it is important that I gave myself permission to change my mind.
And that's a lot of pressure to say that this is what I'm going to do forever. And honestly, when I was writing my book, I was also really worried about that. So I tried to write it in a way, where I never said that and only share things that I like, truly believed would always stay the same, like principles and values I've had, and do have, but like, as far as like, what my life's gonna look like, I really don't
even like that question. I hate when people are like, Well, where do you see yourself in five years and 10 years? Because "A" I don't think anyone can really answer that. Because who knows.
Exactly.
But also like, in our situation, specifically, how do you answer that when like, things change so quickly? Even policies change quickly and have recently over the past year. How can we be expected to like, put ourselves in a lane and tell everyone, we're gonna stay there forever, or expect everyone to stay in that lane forever, when that's just not the reality of life. That's not the way things work.
You know, I'm reading this book right now by David Epstein. It's very good. It's called "Range". And the chapter I just read, he was talking about how people, it's often better instead of making a goal, and then going toward that goal, to take the opportunity, look at the opportunities you have available to you, and then pick the best one, because no one's life ends up with the way that they expected.
It almost reminds me of the navigation on your phone, when you're driving, and you think you have the best route, but maybe there's traffic or
something. So it's always, constantly scanning to see what obstacles are there and what alternative routes are going to get you to the destination the best way, and you don't really know what that's gonna be like, and what roads you might take if you're going on like a cross country road trip, but you just have complete, like, always be scanning for, for what's next.
You know, and let's be honest, you know, we as humans, we want to have a straight course. We want to know exactly where we're going to go. And we also want to know where other people are going to go. We don't like it when people change, when they change who they are, or how they view themselves. Because that might affect our relationships. We want people to be stable. We want stable relationships, with friendships,
with people. And so I think it can be really hard when people change their minds, or when you feel like they've changed that they're a different person. You know, but like, exactly, you're saying, Charlie, no one has their life figured out. I'm like, 10 years ago, I was a deacon passing the sacrament.
That was 10 years ago. You're a child.
I know, crazy. I know. And, you know, did I ever think I would be you know, right now graduating from BYU with painted nails, which you can't see, but they look amazing. Like, no, I would think that was ridiculous. And I think that's like, where, like when I say that I have like peace now. You know, just, just like being okay that I don't have everything figured out. Like, it's not like my life is always peaceful. It's still
hard. You know, I would say both of you can agree where knowing that sometimes you're going to make friends that you know, who are sometimes members of the church and they feel it's their duty to tell you, "Well, if you ever leave, we can't be friends anymore." And that sucks. And then on the flip side, people LGBTQ community, it's like, "Well, if you ever marry a woman, we can't be friends like that. That also sucks. You know?
I feel like especially in this space, because it's so ambiguous sometimes everyone wants to superimpose someone's story onto someone else, or when someone does something that's different a lot of people feel threatened by that. For example, like if Ben did something that I wasn't doing, like why would I feel threatened by Ben being Ben's version of Ben. Like I can, I don't have to be Ben's version of Charlie. I should be Charlie's version of Charlie.
And for some reason, like, we want some sort of like simple answer and path for everyone, but, but then we claim to like value diversity. And I'm like, yeah, that doesn't work.
Yeah, it was just like, understand that someone else's life choices don't attack or affect my life choices.
Right. Right. And if, if my life choice has changed, that's great. It's based on my life experience and my situation. And we just need to like, recognize that everyone, give people that grace, that space to be themselves. I also want to add on to something you said. You were talking about how you were a deacon, and now you're 22. Is that, did I get that right.
I'm 23.
You're 23 with painted nails. You never saw that coming. I remember, this was a couple years back, I was really confused. I did not have everything figured out. And I was driving from Salt Lake to Provo, and I was kind of having like an existential crisis. And I was, I was like praying and talking to God the whole time. And like, just like thinking about where I was and where I
was headed. And towards the end, I started thinking of like, my former self, because I kind of like, I have like a lot of care and respect and like, admiration for my child self. I think it's because it was really easy, like, life was just so much easier. But also, I was just like a really pure good kid. And so I was like, I wish I was still like that. And I remembered specifically, once when I went, I was in a way basketball game in eighth grade.
And I was the only person who rode the bus home, because my parents didn't go to that game. It was really far away. So it was like the bus driver and me, and I was sitting in the back. And it was like two hours away. And I remember praying the whole time, just like I curled up on the little bus seat, and I prayed for that two hour ride home. And I remember that for some reason on this drive from Salt Lake. And I was like, I
wish I was still like that. I wish I was still that little kid who would pray the whole way home. And I wish I was still good. And then I was like, Oh my gosh, I just prayed the whole way home. Like I was like, from Salt Lake, I was like, I am still that kid. And as much as my life looks different. And like there are new challenges. There are elements to me that are the same. And as much as I've changed, and experiences have changed me and shifted me and my worldview has been rocked
so many times. There are elements to like my core, my spirit, that are so stable in there. And I also think it's really important to recognize that as your life is changing, and you feel like you're tossed around on this, like an umbrella and the wind, like maybe you're actually a kite in the wind and you have ground somewhere. But then you have leeway, you know, does that make sense?
Yeah. You know as you were talking, I was thinking, I just have like felt really settled for a long time. And I remember like the moment I felt most unsettled, and that was right, as Jordan and I were like breaking up. And I remember sitting, and I was in the middle of a Ph. D program, and I didn't like it. And I was about ready to quit. And I wasn't sure what
to do with church. And so I remember sitting on the bed in the guest room at Jordan's parents' house, just like looking for jobs, and wondering if I should go back to Arizona, and trying and figure out what to do with the church. I was like, how has everything fallen apart? Like how do I not know what to do with my career? How do I know what to do with my love life? How do I not know what to do with my faith? Like, how did I get to this place? Like I've been trying so hard to
be good? How did this happen? And I just like, in like a fit of desperation, just like put on my church clothes, and drove to the temple. And I remember like, as I was driving the temple, I like prayed out loud. I was like, "God, just throw me a bone. Like I am trying so hard to be good. Like, just throw me a bone." And during that temple session, like I didn't figure much out. But I just didn't, I knew that the next thing I suppose to do was I had to go home. Like I had to go to my
parents house. And I had planned on staying at Jordan's parents house for like, the whole weekend, like four more days. But I got home, I got back to the house. I was like, I'm leaving tomorrow morning. And I got in my car and I drove home and spent a couple weeks with my parents. And you know, sometimes we get to these places where we just like feel so lost and like what what am I supposed to do? And like how did I get to this place? And sometimes we just
know the next thing. Like I didn't have anything figured out but I knew I needed to go home.
Oh my gosh. It's like Frozen 2.
Do the next right thing.
Don't, don't bring up that disgrace of a movie.
I love that movie. I thought it was great.
We're getting off topic.
I think that is one of the best Disney movies.
You know what, Charlie? You know what? Like you can be on the path that's right for you. Good for you.
Yeah.
You know, it was the first Disney sequel to have a theatrical release.
Was it really?
Yeah.
You know, way too much. But but like it's true. Like when you're in like a dark space, you don't know where to turn like you don't have to like choose five years out. Just choose what you're going to do like now or tomorrow. make the best decision that you can with the knowledge you have. And then if that knowledge changes, like of course you should reassess.
Recently I've been talking with my therapist and therapy is great. I recommend it for everyone. But just about How I met this turning point in my life where I'm trying to figure out my career now, like, my bachelor's is ending. I'm still making a decision about like, which masters I should do. There's just a lot of, you know, career decisions I'm making. And I just randomly just said, you know, I'm so grateful that I'm
queer. Because of my experience of being queer and realizing that, you know, I don't need to have my entire life figured out with like, the church and relationships and everything right now. Like, I don't need to have my career figured out right now. Like, well, that's like, I never thought I'd be saying how grateful I am to be queer, because that helped me in other
aspects of my life. I mean, once again, it was just so much pressure, relieving the fact that, you know, one day I could say, you know, I think I'm going to choose this with my career, and then be like, you know, what, nevermind, I changed my mind. And I think that that's something that I think that people just don't hear enough, especially with this decision, that it's okay for you to change your mind. It's okay for you to be unsure about what you want.
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah. Joey, what are some of the ways you've changed your mind?
See, see, you know, to the listeners listening Ben asked that because Ben's been around a long time. And he knows how often I changed my mind about things.
So you want me to just answer my question?
No, no, no, it's fine. I would, I would say sometimes I changed my mind so often that like, you don't even know how quickly I changed it.
Yeah. Well, you told me something that you changed your mind on and I was like, so shocked. I didn't even know how to respond.
Yeah. Yeah. Well,
I was like, Wait, what?
Yeah, well, I think so, I mean, for example, like I, would sort of, and this is the first example, I guess it was just like, the label that I use, like, I first like hated labels. I thought, like, they put me in a box, right? And then I'm just like, no, like, I want to use struggle with same sex attraction. Because at that point in my life, it was the greatest struggle that I was going through. And so that's why when we met Ben, that's what I
was going through. And that's why I didn't want associate with anyone that used LGBTQ labels, because to me, it represented something that I wasn't. Right? I remember a professor. I didn't even like the term coming out at that point. I'm like, No, I'm inviting you into my life. Like I rejected...
That's a great phrase.
Yeah, it is a great phrase, but I was just rejecting everything that I thought I wasn't. I was still trying to control how people viewed me. And he was like, I respect the LGBTQ community. And I was like, "Oh, I'm not part of that, that crazy community."
Yes, exactly. And, and I think that was fine because
I'm SSA. that's where I was at. Like, that doesn't mean that I was, you know, bad. That's just where I was at. And then, you know, how crazy it was five months later, I was at, you know, the pride parade in Salt Lake City, like screaming, "I'm gay!" You know? And then all of a sudden, six months later, I was like, you know, not talking to anybody about it. And then, you know, here we are, like, I don't know what it was, like two years ago? And now I feel like queer is the
label I use. And you know, what s crazy is that probably, in y u know, five years from now, I'
Joey I remember I was the one that told you, because I, l might have a different labe . And I think, I think that's t e thing I was missing in all the e stories was just permission f r me to, you know, change my lab l to, that it's okay for me to figure this out. Because i 's all about, you know, this
is sin. This is like, eter al consequences that I just f lt like, I needed to figure ut exactly what I believed, exa tly what it was right now, r ght here before I jeopar ize anything like it's real or i it isn't. And so, I mean, w 're coming up, you know, next w ek, on a year from, you know, the LGBTQ policy honor
code situation. And like, tha was really, really hard for me For me, I had come to terms that already that I wasn't goi g to date, just because I just now, I go back and forth so qu ckly between if I should date uys, or if I should date gir s, or if I, I just, I just hav n't been dating for a long t me. And I don't think I'll s art soon, so that the polic change didn't really change e. But that change of seeing pe
ple's reaction to it. The initi l change made me feel so welcom , and that I belonged and tha God was aware of me. And so t at reversal happened. And I ean, Ben, and like, I don't know if you remember, I was like s tting in your office in the ho or code on this chair, just cry ng and being like, you know what this is like, why some of my fa because you had just decided to come over anyway to my office. And I thought you already knew because it's been like an hour
since the letter came out. And I was the one that told you what had happened.
Yeah, I didn't know. I thought you're just inviting me to lunch.
I thought you'd be having a terrible day. I didn't want to be alone.
I'm really grateful you're the one who told me. But that was really, really hard for me. Because, you know, here I'm at BYU and I feel like this is where I'm supposed to be. And these things just keep on happening. I'm like, God if you're really aware of me why do you keep letting these things happen? And you know, at that time, I was like, "No, I'm out of here. I can't be here
anymore." And I wasn't sure if it was the church, or at BYU or just being like, on earth in general, like, you know, "God just take me" like I, I was having a really rough time. And you know, here we are, a year later, I'm still here still at BYU. And as of right now, who knows, in six months from now, I'll be, I'm about to start a BYU master's program. You know, and during that time, it was just so hard. And I was so sure that I'm like, I need to get out of here that this is not right
for me. But once again, I just gave myself time that I didn't need to have it figured out right then in that moment. And I'm so grateful I did, that even though it was still so hard that I didn't feel like the pressure that I also needed to make a decision right then either. And I would say that that's one of the things that really saved me in that time. That I knew that I could make a decision at any point. Does that make sense?
Yeah, that's beautiful Joey.
Thank you for sharing that. I want to jump on something you said a little bit ago, you said something about like, wanting to control your narrative or like the way other people viewed you. And I remember, I remember feeling the same thing as like, if somebody sees me with a gay person or being gay, or it's like, as soon as you come out, then you're out. And everyone knows, and like, you can't change that. I was so worried about that. I was like, "What if it's wrong for
me? What if people don't like it?" You never really know like, how someone's gonna react. And that reminded me of a quote from "Braving the Wilderness" by Brene' Brown, and I just pulled it up. I'll read it. It says, "True belonging is the spiritual practice of believing in and belonging to yourself so deeply, that you can share your most authentic self with the world and find sacredness in both being a part of something and standing alone in the
wilderness." And I think in a lot of ways, as an LGBTQ Latter-day Saint, we have to like expose ourselves, and put ourselves out there in ways that we're not really sure how it's, it's almost like, I hate like war and war analogies, but like, so I'll use paintball. It's almost like playing paintball and like, or capture the flag, Oh, my gosh, when you have to, like, go from your hiding place to like, run and grab the flag, and you could be caught. You could, you know, there could be,
it's scary. But like, if you truly believe in yourself, and like real authenticity, is being able to be in that space of, of like belonging to a bigger group. In this case, it'd be the LGBTQ community, or a religious community, or BYU even maybe, and being able to belong to that, while at the same time belong to yourself so deeply, that when you're, like, moved, and people try to uproot you, you don't like, you're confident in who you are. And belonging isn't like a perfect fit
somewhere. It's a perfect fit with yourself. And I think it's so healthy to like, assess where that fit is. And when there's things like this that happened, this policy change that, that rocked your world and sort of rocked my world, and I'm sure really rocked Ben's world. And and some of that we just can't and, and or won't talk about that. We won't get into it, but but like, it shifts you and if you allow yourself to be flexible with that, then it
won't knock you over. And it sounds like that's how you handled it. And I'm proud of the way you handled that.
What I'm hearing you guys say is a lot of the pressure, like to have everything figured out comes from external forces.
Yes.
And if if we could create a space where it's okay for people to try and figure things out, and where they can change their mind, then people are gonna be healthier.
Yeah.
Oh, I definitely agree. And I think that that's why this is like, one of the only topics I feel comfortable talking about on the podcast is because I think it's so easy for other people's stories to be weaponized, like, even like, normally, I don't do recordings like this. I just do like presentations in classrooms or whatever. And there's always someone who comes up after me, afterwards to me, and they, you know, they thank me, and they're just like, "Oh, if only my cousin could hear this" or
something. And I think that's, that's really difficult because, number one, I think they only heard just a small portion of my story. And I, as I always say, I'm figuring things out. And so I think, once again, they are looking at me how I used to view everyone else is that they all have it figured out. Right? And the thing is, no one has it
figured out. You know, like Ben and Charlie just have like books that just came out and I like, well, I can't speak as well for Charlie, because I don't know you as well. But I would say Ben doesn't have everything figured out, you know?
How dare you?
And I, you know, I think that that's I was just always missing that permission from someone that it's okay if I don't have everything figured out and then it's okay if I take years to figure it out. It's okay if I actually never figure it out if I, if I go back and forth on things. And I think that's like where as you, you mentioned, you know, Charlie, it's in those moments where you recognize that you don't have it figured out and you're
struggling. I think that's when you're the most vulnerable because you just have to accept yourself where you're at. And hope that other people accept you that that's where you're at too.
Yeah, I think it's really healthy to be inspired by someone or their story, or use them as a point of reference to help you understand yourself. But if you're trying to turn yourself into that, and force yourself in some, like in somebody else's hallway, you're not gonna fit and it's gonna make it a lot harder.
I think the only thing I would say is that, like, if someone's like listening to this, I would just hope that you feel permission in whatever aspect of your life that it's okay, if you don't have it figured out right now. This is me giving you that permission.
And then, if there's anything that you heard in this podcast that you feel, like really touched you, or helped you, instead of like, reaching out to like, well, if it's a critique for the podcast, you can totally reach out to Ben and Charlie, they love that. But you know, instead of like reaching out to me or something, share it with someone that you care about, and tell them why it meant something to you. If you feel like you can be that, you know, vulnerable.
And then if you don't, then share it with yourself and journal about it. Because that's one thing that has been really helpful for me is looking back on my journals and looking back at the things that touched me and why. It's been helpful, to not necessarily, hasn't helped me figure things out. But it's helped me feel more confident in not having things figured out.
You know, Joey, you're 23. You're just a kid. I was thinking about when I was 23. If I kept living in the paradigm and the constraints I had, like, that I viewed on my life at 23 I would be a disaster right now. And even like 10 years ago, at 27, like if I continued living in the paradigm I had then with like, the life constraints, I thought were like on me, I would
be such a disaster today. And I feel like, I like, it's not like I've ended up anywhere, but like where I am on my journey is the place that I really, really love and appreciate. I guess until we had this conversation I didn't realize like how much I've changed my mind throughout all this.
You've changed your mind a lot, Ben.
Like even in the past few years.
That's true.
So have I. So have I. Like if I look at myself five years ago, I'm like, Who was that? Even though it was still me. I was like, dang, I was putting a ton of pressure on myself, and trying to live in a space that I was never meant to live in.
Yeah. So let's do this again in 10 years and see where we are.
Check in.
Great. Well hopefully in 10 years, the podcast is still up, you know. Hopefully I don t like say six months from no "Hey, guys, take it down.
Well, Joey, thank you so much for coming and sharing yourself and some of your story and we're gonna hold you to it.
What? What kind of ending is that?
That was a joke. That was a joke. No, honestly, thank you for sharing and being vulnerable.
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