Welcome to Questions from the Closet. I'm Charlie Bird.
And I'm Ben Schilaty. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, how do I create a safe space for youth in seminary?
Charlie and I are not terribly diverse. We share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both graduated from early morning seminary.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, Ben was the president of his seminary class, and I definitely, definitely was not.
It's true. I was actually president of my seminary class when I was a freshman. And I was kind of a Hermione Granger, like a know it all annoying. Yeah.
Ben, you?!? Really?
I know who would have ever thought? But my first year of seminary, we studied the Doctrine and Covenants. And that year, I was also reading the Work and the Glory. So I knew every answer to all the church history questions.
I got to the point where I learned how to drive with my knee to seminary, and it was not as dangerous as it sounds, because I lived in the middle of nowhere, so there wasn't really any traffic. But I was eating breakfast in the car. And I would always roll in at like, 6:35. It started at six. But I was charismatic. So the teachers let me get away with.
Well, I was awful also often late, because I was not a morning person. But we just lived like four blocks from the church. And in the Seattle area there's always fog in the morning in the winter. And so like my, my window, like my windshield would be iced over and there'd be fog but I couldn't see it out at all. I would just like drive, the four blocks the church with my head out the window.
Somehow we survived.
We survived. And we both graduated from seminary.
We did hit.
That's the only thing that goes into BYU. Anyway, we would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. So today, we're joined by Alec Barrow.
Hi.
Welcome.
Thank you.
Alec, we're so happy to have, have you here. And just tell us a little bit about yourself.
Well, I'm a seminary teacher, which is good for the question that we're having. And I'm married. I have five children. I have a little grandbaby that, that'll be six months tomorrow.
Congratulations.
Thank you. She is adorable. And, umm I'm gay. I've been teaching seminary for 26 years now. I'm also a licensed therapist in private practice here in Provo. I do that little gig on the side, and enjoy that very much.
So Alec, when did you come out?
I came out... Now. I mean, I'm not really out publicly.
So this is your public coming out?
This, this podcast will be my public coming out. Yeah.
Oh my gosh. I actually didn't know that.
Yeah, yeah.
Did you know that Ben?
I did know that.
Yeah.
Oh, my gosh, how do you feel?
I mean, there. I'm, I'm really excited. And I'm, I'm nervous, for sure. A little scared about that. It's, it's been great arriving at this point. And yeah, I wouldn't say that it's been a secret. I have my family, of course knows. And my wife knows and bishops have always known and, and I've got colleagues that have known and so I haven't been public. But I wouldn't necessarily say that I've, I've kind of kept it a secret.
So Alec, Charlie and I are we're very open. We've been out for a while we record our podcast every week. And and it just occurred to me, right before we started recording that this is an incredibly big deal for you. To help us understand, like, why now?
That's such a great question. I feel like the seminary and Institute program is moving into a space where there's some real concern for marginalized students. And I wouldn't well they've I think
that's always been true. But it just seems more lately now that there's deep concern and care for what are we going to do for our students who don't feel like there's a place for them here in the church, and in seminary, and as that feeling has grown, and even in training meanings, as we've been talking more about that, it's felt like it's created a space where my voice, my experience might be helpful. I mean, clearly, I've always
been gay. And I've always taught a seminary class aware of, of my own kind of sense of not really belonging sometimes or feeling like I don't belong. And so I think that's always impacted the way that I teach. But it does feel like it's, it's the right time to step into that space and be and be public. My wife and I have been very prayerful about
it. We visited and talked with administrators, and priesthood leaders and, and feel like now would be a would be a good time to, to see what we can do to help.
So this is something that the Holy Ghost is is asking you
Yeah, yeah. About six months ago, we had a to do. training meeting for all seminary teachers. Well, seminary teachers from St. George, I think to Lehi was the group. The purpose of the training was, how can we create right safe places for for students in seminary, and each week, there was a different emphasis right? There was a different population, I guess I would say. And so we did. What can we do to help our students
of color feel more safe? And what can we do to help, right, sisters feel like they have more of a voice in our seminary class? Or what can we do? And what can we do to help, right, our LGBTQ students feel welcome and feel loved. And traditionally, in in seminaries and institutes, we would have outsourced somebody coming to visit, we would have visit to ask somebody from the outside to come in and say, what's it like
to be gay in the church? And I did, the guy that was teaching the class is a neighbor, and a very good friend of mine. And I approached him and said, are we going to outsource this again? Or are we the place now where, where one of us, right, that's experiences an LGBTQ identity can can step up and can speak from our experience of what it's like to be us, and what that might be like for other members of the church. And that was approved, and it was given the thumbs up. And we were really
excited. And so that's been about six months. And so in these last six months, we've just, right, we've been, we didn't want to rush we're not in a hurry. We want to make sure we did it in a way that would be helpful for our students, and for seminary and institutes and for the church and for our family. And so we've we've tried to be very careful and cautious and patient and, and mindful. And most of all, getting confirmation from the Holy Ghost as we've been prayerful.
Yeah. So, you know, you were saying that for years, you've known that you were gay. You taught even through that lens, even though people didn't know, but that you use your experiences as you were teaching. What was it like for you to come out to your colleagues that you've known and worked with for years?
That started happening, probably about four or five years after I began teaching. At that point, I, I was becoming more aware that that this wasn't going to change, right, I grew up with the idea, right in the 80s, back in the 80s, this idea that it was, was a choice that I could change, right, if there are certain things that I could do that would change this
orientation. And so it was a probably about five years into our marriage, that, that we began to, my wife and I began to realize, wait a second, this isn't quite going the way we thought it was going to go, we thought there would have been a shift by now or a change in our, in my orientation. And it was then that I started doing some reparative therapy. I got with a reparative therapist and started having that not great experience. And realized that I just, I just needed to let a few
people in. At that point, it was just my wife and me. And going to work, sometimes it's really tough, because you felt I felt that I didn't belong, that if people knew, right, they wouldn't want me there. If parents of my students knew they would not want me to be a teacher. And so there's just a lot of shame associated with that, that secrecy, right that so many, I think in the LGBTQ
experience have. And so, um, I visited with a couple colleagues at the very beginning, and just to kind of decrease the intensity of the pressure, right? There was just, it was just, there was just so much pressure. And I was attending a group and again, as part of that reparative therapy practice that I was doing and and that was encouraged as well as to is to decrease the isolation, right. And so I let in a few people and then and then we went for a long time without saying anything
more. I mean, we are again, with bishops, every time I get a new Bishop, I'd sit down the bishop and say, Hey, Bishop, this is what's going on. But it wasn't really until the church began to change a little bit of what how they were talking about same sex attraction, you know, the doctrine when they started changing a little bit. And it was all of a sudden, that moment, and I remember the first time when I was when I read, well, this is not a choice. I was like, "Oh I thought it was a
choice." And and now it's not a choice, right? That that...
It was almost like permission to feel what you
It was amazing, right? And it was devastating. actually felt. Right? At the same time, it was really, really difficult that that I mean, I had been working my whole life right by my own good works or by the grace of God, He was going to change me, right? If I did this, this, this and this, then my orientation would change and then to hear a prophet say it's it's not a choice, and it's okay, right. That being gay is is okay. It's acting on it. That's when that began to be the message that the
church was sharing. It was it was it was it was really, it was really hard because then right your goal was different. And then I'm not going to change. And there's nothing I can do about this. And it was, it was really it was really tough.
Yeah. So Charlie, you attended seminary? Yes. What kinds of messages were given about the LGBTQ community when you were in seminary?
Either nothing or not good. But like I said, nothing actually really sticks out to me.
I remember one time we had this lesson about, like, how the world and the church are getting farther and farther apart. And this was in like the early 2000s. And I like late 90s. And I remember Ellen had a show, and she came out on it, and then it got canceled. And I remember my teacher saying that like,
Like her career was ruined, because she chose to be gay.
Yeah, yep. I remember that message.
Yeah. I don't know if those. Like for me, I feel like I can't really pinpoint what was in seminary and what was just everywhere, always. You know what I mean? Yeah, but a lot of it probably was in seminary, because I spent five hours a week. And the thing is, like, I almost feel bad saying that because, like, I wonder if any of my seminary teachers are listening to this, and I love them. Like, they were amazing,
really good people. But but I'm sure like, as we all do, if we don't have like, the right background or experience or knowledge, it's it's easy to perpetuate misconceptions.
Yeah, people, good people just doing their best but also causing unintentional harm.
Yeah, yeah.
I remember I love seminary like, my goal is always to be a seminary teacher. I mean, I would still love to do that. But I'm a single man, you can't be as seminary teacher if you're single man. You get that changed, Alec. But I remember one of my friends from seminary, of course, I was in high school. And there was like an, there was like a poster at school for like an LGBTQ like scholarship or something. And my friend from seminary, like complained to the administration and said that
that was offensive. And they took it down.
Really?!
Yeah. And then I remember him telling that story and everyone like being so glad that he'd like stood up for truth and righteousness.
At seminary...
Mm hmm. Yeah. So those are the sort of messages I internalized, but at the same time like, I loved seminary, like I loved it. It was great. And my, my poor non member friends had to hear me talk about all the time, trying to convert them.
Everyone thought it was cemetery. They're like, "You go to the cemetery every morning?" I was like...
Basically,
Honestly, sure. Baptisms for the dead or what? No, but I want to point something out, like, the conversation has shifted, like the way we talk about it has changed a lot. And sometimes I think we get in this idea of like, nothing's gonna change. But I mean, things continually change always. And I think that's just part of living in a Restored Church, like it's a
true and living church. And just like, the messaging that was most prominent from the time when you were in seminary, to the time when you were hearing that it's a, being gay is not a choice, Alec. Then to me being in seminary, I'm 10 years older than you, Ben, like, the messaging has improved and so I think that's a positive. But I still wouldn't say it's like, super great to be gay in seminary.
Well, and even I mean, even the messaging from when I was a teenager in this in the church, I when I was going to seminary, and when the way even when I was in the mission field, the way gay people were viewed right in the church. I mean, there's just there was there's just been this gradual shift over over time.
Well, and I think I say that, because, like that messaging gave you permission to to be okay, to a certain extent with, with who you are, like to stop trying to change your orientation, correct?
Yeah.
And so like, I guess I just want to like, like you have permission to change as well. Like, I think it's okay for like instructors, seminary teachers, to change their opinion, on how they approach LGBTQ topics. I think that's healthy. As we get more information, we should be shifting and accommodating this in a new way that reflects current teachings, current doctrine, current revelation.
Yeah, like as we get line upon line knowledge, we should be that like...
We should be on top of the line upon line knowledge.
And that seminary teachers, Institute teachers will hear what the current brethren are teaching and sharing and move with them.
I guess, I guess the only reason I bring that up is because sometimes I'm I worry that like, like I am so on top of anything LGBTQ, same sex attraction, gay related in the church, like I know immediately when it happens, what the policies look like, what changed
what wording is common. But sometimes I worry that the people who are teaching youth and the people who are counseling members like Bishoprics and seminary teachers, like it just makes sense that they wouldn't be as on top of it, because it's not their issue. You know, and, and that kind of worries me a little bit because then, I mean, I look at your experience that of like wanting to change hating who you are. And like, I felt the same thing. And I mean, we're from
two different generations. So this, like, gay people in the church are largely undergoing a similar experience, even now with this thrwarted belonging, feelings of isolation, feeling like a defect. And and I hope that that the membership who is creating the culture is on top of this this subject to stop this perpetuation of people feeling like they don't belong.
And avoid the discussions, even if those feelings are, they experience those feelings as the members of the church but avoid the discussions of "Oh, well the church is capitulating, or that the brethren are just accommodating, that the church is kind of weakening its stance because of modern times." And I've heard all of those really, right, that, that we're just kind of giving in to social pressure.
I hate the idea that people like loving me and care about me, is like people giving in. So Alec, what kinds of issues are the LGBTQ students in your classes facing?
I think they're facing similar to what's always been is that, is there a place for me? And how am I going to navigate this? And if it's not a choice, right, if this is my identity, and it's not going to change? How do I find myself comfortable in the church? Where's my we've read president Ballard, has has taught and in a wonderful way, right that, that you have a place in the church, we want you here, you're
welcome. And I think sometimes for the youth, it's hard for them to know exactly what that means. How do I find my place in the church, and then as they right, seek for their own personal revelation as they seek awareness and understanding and they get answers. Sometimes those answers aren't what others around them want those answers to be. And they challenge them. And we don't allow them to own their own story, right? This is my story. This is my experience. This is what I'm learning is
what I'm feeling. If they share those with people, then sometimes peers, but also right adults will will come in and say yeah, that's, that's not right.
People can be really invalidating.
As of, as they're, as they're trying to search. And as they're trying to figure out what they are going to do.
Yeah. Tell me if you experienced this, but I, I even do this as someone who is gay, like I'll I do a lot of class presentations and panels and things like that. And I talk to classes as if I'm talking to a group of straight people about how to love LGBTQ people. And I often kind of forget that there are LGBTQ people that I'm also talking to in the room. And I teach two diversity classes at BYU. And we spend most of the class learning about seven different marginalized
populations. And we just did our LGBTQ unit. And I usually have a student panel come in, but out of my 25 students in one class 10 had come out to me in their first papers. So I was like, I don't need to invite a student panel. Like, I've already got the students in the class, so, so I decided to just have that, like, students in the class be the panel. And I just like, messaged, everyone like, hey, do you want to be on the panel? Let me know. And not everyone was willing to be out, which was
totally their prerogative. And so I never asked this before, but like the last question I asked the panel was like, What message do you have for the other LGBTQ people in the class? And I felt like very, like that was a very spirit driven question. And they gave us like, really beautiful answers. Like, I feel like that was the thing that like, the moment that needed to happen was, you know, the five closeted kids needed to hear from the five out kids, like, like a beautiful message.
Ben, that reminds me, yesterday, somebody sent me a really kind message. And it was a picture of somebody else reading my book, in public, they were in their car. And the person like, took a picture of this dude in his car, reading my book, and they were like, Look, someone's reading your book. And I was like, Oh, that's so awesome. So I put it up on my story. And I was like, Oh, this is so cute. I'm so glad this person sent me this because it
was just like, cool to see. And then about an hour later, somebody else messaged me and was like, hey, just wanted to let you know, you probably didn't even think about this. But it's possible that the guy reading your book is gay. And like, you might be outing him. And I was like, Oh my gosh, like, why didn't I not even think about it just because he
was like, a grown man. Because like, when I picture like, who the gays my book is for, it's like 14-15 year olds, you know, and I was just like, Oh, my gosh, like, I forgot, people are gay. You know? And so I took it down. And if that was you, I'm really really sorry. But like, yeah, like, like, we are all culpable of forgetting that there are LGBTQ plus people around us all the time.
As I teach, right, I try to always be aware that I probably have a gay student in the class or somebody who might identify as trans. And at the same time, I try to remember, and there's some kids in here who's not things aren't going well at home, that they don't have a great relationship with with their dad, or there's students in here that don't think the church is true, or there're students in here that don't, that don't believe, right, what a current prophet is teaching and just and that
they're all in here together. And and there are students in here who right who love the gospel and have strong testimonies, and that all of those are present in, in my class.
Is it exhausting teaching such a diverse group at once?
You know, my wife has wisely taught me that pain is pain, because the pain that I might experience because of being gay in the church and being marginalized sometimes and the experience of that as that I've had over the years, right? That's painful. But it's, it's also painful for somebody else whose parents are going through divorce right now. And that's also painful. And I don't know that, right? As we sit up in the classroom, we try to decide who's got more pain and less
pain. And it's just that we experience pain. And sometimes we experienced church pain. Yeah, right. We can we can address that in class, we can talk about that, not necessarily about everybody's individual experiences. But it's not. I don't know that it's exhausting. But it's just quick story there was, it's been a few years back, but we were having this kind of spontaneous moment where kids started talking about their
dads. And there's all these great stories about well, my dad does this, my dad, and so it w nt on. I mean, it wasn't rea ly part of what we were doing in class, it was just t is wonderful moment where peo le started talking about how m ch they love their dads, owning ll these great things, their da s, and then we kind of got to he end of it, there was just t
is little voice, right? I he Spirit that said, not everyb dy in this room right now is hav ng a great experience, that ther 's some people in here, t is conversation was really pain ul for. And I read and I said t at I said, You know, I don't k ow who but some of us in he e right now are not having a gre t experience, because we' e sharing all these great stori s about a great dad, and you've ot a lot of pain, or several o you have some pain around you. nd I wouldn't never have asked
who. But just that awareness that when we teach or when we talk and we share things tha not everybody is having that same experience with us at the ime. And some things that th t we might share might mig t be hurtful, and it might not atch up with their experi
What experience do you want your LGBTQ students to be having
I want them to know that they're loved, just as they in your class?
are, that they're welcome. We want them we want them we need them in our classrooms, and that they can get answers right for themselves for their life and the decisions that they're going to we right we teach in the church, this wonderful Joseph Smith model, that there's a question, there's a concern, and then you, you go seek, right, and you get answers and you study and then you pray, and that you can get right direct answers and direct light and
knowledge. And if we're not careful, right, right before that light and knowledge came, there's this moment where the adversary tries to silence Joseph in his questions. And if we're not careful, we do that when somebody is trying to say, Well, this is what I'm thinking, and this is what I'm learning is what I'm feeling. And we go No, no, no. And we silence people, instead of encouraging them in their questions in their study. And in their trying to get answers from Heavenly Father in
their prayers. And so that's what I would want. My LGBTQ students, that's what I want all of my students in class to know is that they are, they're loved by their heavenly parents. They're needed in the church, and they can get answers to their questions from God.
And I love that answer. I think that's such a beautiful thing to teach that you're loved and that you're so loved that God will talk to you and teach you. Yeah, I get messages from people who will say like, like, I've got a 12 year old gay kid, like gay kid, or there's a kid in my semi, Institute class, or seminary class, who's 16 and came out to me like, like, What
do I tell them? Or like, like their 15 year olds, like, I can't say the church, because there's no future for me here like, like, What do I tell them? And they want me to give like an answer. And what I always tell them is, you need to teach these kids how to get personal revelation, because there's no way they're going to make it in life if they don't know how to talk to God and receive answers.
Because if we give people some kind of outcome, like, Oh, don't worry, like like x, y, and z will happen if we if we give them like an outcome to hope for. And then that outcome doesn't happen, or it does happen. And it's not as good as they had hoped. Like, if we point people to outcomes, we're just setting them up to fail. Yeah. And we need to teach people how to, like you said, ask questions and receive personal revelation, because that's the only way any of us
are going to make it. That's what President Nelson said in his very first talk, as President, the church.
And then when they do get those answers, to allow them that space to experience those answers, and not...
Like try to superimpose your own answer.
No, no, not that answer.
Right. Right. And then right, not try to fix it or
I love that emphasis you put on not forwarding other solve it or when the decision that they have is different than what we wanted for them to not, to not then create an environment of shame and all you don't know what you're talking about. That couldn't be the
right answer or right. If people's revelatory process, and not letting our pride or our President Nelson is saying, Let's hear him, listen and hear and find out what the Lord wants for you, then we can we can encourage that and and create an environment where they're loved and they're safe, and they're welcome. And they can explore those questions. And if they have doubts, if they hav uncertainty, then then ou classroom can be a place wher they bring those uncertaintie and bring those And they'r
welcome here. And that's okay It's okay not to know ideas become an obstacle to somebody else trying to find God, that's really beautiful. And I'm kind of like realizing ways that I might be doing that
to other people as well. And it's, it's, like sobering to think that like, like, when you think of the, the restoration and the Joseph Smith model, as you as you called it, like, it's weird to think that I could be someone's adversary in that in their model, you know, I'm saying, like, I could be the one, shutting them down, causing darkness. And I also think back to like how impressionable I was as a youth, and how, like, when you try new things you need like
permission and validation. And like, there's with like sports and with activities, that they're like, criticisms I've received that I will always remember, you know, that have kind of like, shut me down. And I think it's so cool to always be mindful that like to be to be in a mode of operation where you're actively trying to not shut down somebody else's revelation.
And I would want to be careful that I believe people love, right, our students, and they love their children, they love their word members, and they're coming from a place of love. So I would never want to make the comparison that they are being the adversary. But I would want to just point out that, or at least help them understand that that is somebody is beginning to share an explore, just ask more
questions. And just listen, you don't have to contradict, you can just say, well, and then what, and then how and then where and then and just allow them to keep to keep talking and keep exploring, without without limiting their ability to get revelation.
So how has your orientation influenced the way you approach your class?
I think I'm gonna go back to what I think my wife has taught me is that pain is pain, I think is everybody right? recognizes the pain they've experienced, they can bring that into a classroom and let that affect their classroom. So has has my LGBTQ orientation, has my gay orientation caused pain in my life? Yes. Has it made me feel excluded at times? Absolutely. Has it made me seek God, and get answers to my own questions and try to figure out what I am supposed to do with
me. Absolutely. And so those experiences, I want to bring those into the classroom. And my great hope is that it's it's taught me to be empathetic, and that I'm compassionate, because of the experience that I'm having, and that it's okay to not be kind of like everybody else, and you can really enjoy the gospel and enjoy the church, and enjoy the blessings that flow from my covenants that I've made, even though I don't have all the answers and things don't make sense that there really can
be joy and ambiguity. I want my classroom to be a place where we can have joy in not knowing we don't have to know everything right now. And there's a place for that joy and ambiguity, God seems to do a lot of work in ambiguity hasn't explained himself a lot. And that's okay. And we can we can have joy in that and happiness in them.
You know, I've tried to picture myself like teaching a seminary class. And, you know, I wonder what what the experience of teaching would be like if I if I imagined and understood that every student walking into my class experiences some kind of pain, and was wounded in some way, and that we were going to honor that woundedness and also seek healing through Jesus
Christ. Like what a beautiful experience that would be instead of just like, trying to teach someone a fact about the scriptures, but really, like, come for healing.
I'm also thinking about how like, we all come with pain, but we also come with divinity. We come with blessings and unique experience and something to give. And so if you can honor the pain, but it's like, it's not just pain, it's also beauty. Like there is beauty in this diversity, and the way that each person thinks and perceives differently. I wonder if there's a way to, like, honor that pain, but also honor, that blessing, that light that that lightness.
One of my favorite words is the word "and" that I can have pain, and I can have great joy, and one doesn't have to take away from the other. And there can be divinity and there can be happiness, and there can be questions and there can be uncertainty. And both of those things can write all of those things can exist in me all at
the same time. I used to be uncomfortable with that, that idea that well if I have a question about this ever doubt about this, well, then I can't have great faith and great, a great testimony. But everyone that I can write have a great testament and converted the gospel of Jesus Christ. I love Jesus Christ AND sometimes I'm really not sure how things are going to turn out and how things are and I can be I can be okay with that.
There can be conviction and uncertainty.
And all at the same time, and both of those can bring joy. And both of those can can be hard.
Are the youth like developmentally, can they live in that kind of space of like, knowing but also not knowing? Are they are they can they have that kind of nuance?
I can trust them to be where they are. with that. I think clearly because I'm 50 years old, I've had more experience in that ambiguity. But they understand, right, they understand that there aren't easy answers. And and life is challenging, and life is difficult. And they've got a, they've got to ask those questions for themselves. They know, I think, I think they know that God loves them. And he wants to answer their questions.
And as they as they reach out to him, and if we do, again, if we do our best to not get in the way of that if we can create that space where they can ask those questions and seek out those answers, and they're supported and loved, then they can get right, they can get those answers for themselves.
Do you worry at all that by coming out the way your students view, you will change?
I think...
Am I planting the worry right now?
Am I ever worried? No, no, no, no. I think I think anybody that I don't know about your generation, my generation, right? Anybody that's my age, that's gay in the church worries that when people find out there's going to be rejection. It just, it's it's just baked into the cake at this point. Because for so long, right, that has been that's been the concern, right is don't talk
about it. Don't be out. Don't be and so there's always that that concern that if people find out, there's going to be rejection.
Yeah. But I guess I'm asking is that coming from the younger generation because you're dealing with like, Gen Z, like 14-15 year olds,
Yeah, they like don't wear skinny jeans now.
The middle parts and are on tik tok.
I would like to hope that students that have been in my class, before this podcast, will not view me any differently than than they would after I think I'm just Brother Barrow. And sometimes it's really boring in class. And sometimes it's really interesting. And sometimes, it is just this old guy trying to understand teenagers, and hopefully, they feel loved and safe and accepted. And, and there will be those, I think that will have some concerns.
There'll be some parents, I'm sure that we'll have some concerns. That's and that's okay. I mean, that's, I don't fault them for having those concerns.
Well, I think, especially the older generations are dealing with some misconceptions that might be hard, and there might be some discomfort there. But from everything I've talked to you about, and in getting to know you during this just the past 30 or so minutes, like I would love if I was in your seminary class, and if I had a child, I would love for you to be instructing them.
I think it's gonna take time. I think I think I don't think the students will have as many issues. I don't think they'll be concerned. I think they'll be like, Oh, yeah, and and they'll move on. I think some parents are going to have some real concerns. And and that's okay. Right. It just takes time to grow into this space.
You know, I agree, I takes time. But I think it also takes proximity, like it takes us getting close to one another and really getting to know one another. Like, in the October 2020 General Conference, when Sharon Eubank talked about, you know, the need to get to know one another, then we build Zion by really getting to know one another. And President Oaks shared that same message, like we need to get to know one
another. You know, I just think it's so beautiful that that your kids are really going to get to know you. Like, no part of you that was there was hidden and, like, even, it's gonna be painful for some people, but you're going to be building Zion. As as your kids really get to know you. And the parents that are uncomfortable with that, you know, as they get to know you, I think that discomfort will dissipate.
And which I would welcome, right, I mean, if anybody has a concern, come sit in my class, right? Call me up and say, Hey, can you come sit on my couch and help me explain? And I would love to sit down with people and help to have them get to know me?
Is this where you publicly share your phone number for feedback?
No, but I mean, the fact of the matter is, right, I've been a gay seminary teacher forever, 26 years, right?
Saying it doesn't change...
And saying it doesn't change who I am, I had always taught from what I understand what I know. And my testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ and my understanding of the restoration that has not changed and it won't change after I do a podcast, it's just that people will, will know more about me more. And, and that's, that's, that's a great thing.
It's a great outlook.
I'm just me, I've always been me and I'm going to keep being me. And, and I hope people aren't put off by that.
Yeah, I don't know if I shared the story before on the podcast. But while I was teaching Spanish at BYU, my first semester back during my Master's in social work, and, and I wasn't like sure if it was okay to be out as a teacher at BYU and the first day of class, someone like asked about my family. Like if I was married, and I was like, let's change the subject, I kind of just shut them down. And then anytime someone like brought up like my life, I just kind of like shut
it down. And then I was asked to represent BYU and LGBT conference hosted by the NCAA. And so I missed two days of class, but I didn't tell them why I was leaving them. When I came back. I told them like that I was asked to represent BYU with this LGBTQ conference, because I was a gay student. And that was a really scary thing for me, like, it was super,
super scary. And then, and some people had some questions, and we talked about for like, five minutes, like, it was a Spanish class, like, it wasn't about me, like my orientation, that wasn't the point of class. But then when I got my student reviews, that semester, over half the students talked about how meaningful that was, that I had done that. And, and I was I was shocked. And so like, overwhelmed with gratitude that like, like, my sharing a part of me, was so meaningful to my
students. And, you know, I just, I just think it, you know, we can do so much good as teachers, and as learners when we are willing to, like, share these vulnerable parts of ourselves.
When I first told my oldest child that I was gay, she was in high school, and we didn't have a great relationship. I think she felt like I was just saying stuff about Jesus and saying stuff about the church, and that I was a seminary teacher, and that was just kind of parroting. Right, what I understood about the atonement, and I don't think she really, I could seem to me like we just weren't connecting on that spiritual level of what the
gospel of Jesus Christ does. And so part of the reason it became important for me to share that with her is that she would understand that I get it, I get that I need Jesus, and I get that I need the atonement, and that I look to him for answers and for comfort and for understanding. And our relationship changed. I mean, when she saw me, for all of me, and the difficult parts, the fun parts, and Joel parts, there was just an awareness on her for her. That wasn't there before.
And then as my children have gotten older, right, as as I think age appropriate, right. And as I've shared with them, about my sexual orientation, they've said that for them, right, their ability to see people and to be compassionate and to be empathetic, right to view people for more than the maybe what they would have prior. And so I think what you're saying, I think it's I've witnessed that in my own family. That is I've shared that with my own children, how it's brought
us closer together. And I believe it's brought them closer to other people.
So, so you've talked to us about how you know coming out to your your kids helped them see like, what your testimony actually was brought you closer together. What has your orientation, like how has that journey been for your wife?
My wife and I met in the mission field, we were both missionaries together. We both served in Italy. My wife is from northern Italy.
That was not okay, back then.
We got permission from our mission president. We checked in with him first. He was good with it. Yeah, so we were down on Sicily. She's from up north.
Wait is she Italian?
Yeah, she's Italian. Yeah, yeah.
So she was you met her as a missionary. She wasn't a sister missionary.
She was a sister missionary. She's one of the missionaries. She's from up north. And you know, and then she was serving down with us. And Catania is where we first were first met. In fact, she was the first Italian member that I met, she was on the train during transfers. And my companions were like, she's an Italian and, and I remember meeting her, she says she remembers meeting me, but I don't believe that she was with her companions and having a
good time. And, but she was the first Italian member that I met right after my mission president. But anyway, we met there. And the mission president, the first person that I ever told was, was I was coming home from my mission. And again, I thought, I thought the mission was going to change and fix my orientation. And as I got close to coming home, I realized, Oh, right, I'm still gay. And so I finally talked to him about it and opened up to him a little bit, and got some
counsel from him. That wasn't super helpful. I love him dearly, but it wasn't super helpful counsel. And so anyway, so before we we got married, my wife, my, we sat down together, we were in, if I remember, right, it was a little church in Italy in her hometown. And I said, "Hey, this is me. This is like what I got going on. I'm gay."
Did you tell her in Italian?
Probably said it in Enligh.
How do you say it in Italian?
Sono swale. Well, or they say gay they say, you know...
Is it soy?
Soy meaning like...
I am.
Sono.
Sono, sono.
Sono.
Son gay. Nice.
Sono gay. I don't know that I've ever said that out loud before in the public. Sono gay. You're not putting that in.
Why not?
But it was this there was this feeling that we were going to do this together, right. There was this real understanding that that we were going to get married, have children create a family and God was going to change, right my orientation and she was she was this wonderful companion was like, let's do this right we can do this. And there was this
partnership. And so for her it's been a very important journey and and and difficult along the way when we both realized, Hey, this is not what we thought it was going to be. And for her that realization that, mean, she would say that she wouldn't change anything. And I love her for that. But it's not right just not turned out the way she thought it was going to turn out. And then when it came time, even when we got the the offer to teach seminary, we were like, this is it. This is how it's
going to happen. We're going to dedicate, dedicate ourselves to seminary, we're going to dedicate dedicate ourselves to God, we're going to teach the scriptures and the gospel. And that's how this is going to get fixed. And so we right we we moved into the seminary system with this idea that yeah, this is how the orientation changes. And again, along the way, that realization that oh, this isn't what's gonna change it, right?
And so along the way, right for her that realization that oh, this is what's going to be, and nope, it's not that, and then the reparative therapy, that's what's going to be and then no, it's not that. And I and that's been I think that's been hard for her. Again, I think, you know, she's told me repeatedly throughout my life, I wouldn't change anything. Right. It's, it's been, it's been great. But at that, I think it's hard to be married to a gay person.
I see like, like so much love and compassion for your wife and for her situation. And also like, the beauty in her saying, like, I wouldn't change a thing about you. I love you how you are. And as you Alec, as you were talking about, like, well, this is going to change me, this is going to change me, this is going to change me. And then like now where you are like I'm going to instead of changing, I'm going to use the way I've been created to build Zion and teach people.
And again, she's, she's very excited about that journey. She's, she's, you know, let's, let's step into that space. And let's see what we can do to help people. Because the way we've done it wasn't helpful. Right? That's, I mean, again, we had hoped, but it wasn't very healing, it was very difficult. And, and to now say, you know, what, this is who we are, this is what we have. It might not be what other people think, would be best for us. But this is what we have. And it's
really good. And let's see what this next part of life is going to be like, again, being public. We've never done that before this be the first time that I will be public with our stake, we're being public, in our home Ward or being public on a podcast like this.
And hopefully it goes well.
Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, I think it will.
I think so too. Yeah. As we're kind of wrapping up. I'm wondering what advice you would give to another seminary teacher who is seeking to make their class a space where it's safe for LGBTQ youth. One that's not gay, the straight ally seminary teacher.
We talked as a faculty today. I love my faculty. I love the people. And I probably should say, and I'll get to your question. There was a really difficult time where things were really dark for me. And I couldn't get to work. And I was really depressed. And it was just really hard. And I started reaching out to some seminary, I said, I'm never going to go to work again, without a few people on the faculty knowing. I was in a
bishopric at the time. So I am never going to stand up at the pulpit again, without a few people in my congregation knowing because it was just it was just so hard that secrecy and that shame that that, you know, we learn right from Eden, that hiding is not a helpful thing. And so we got to right, we got to reach out and let some people in. And so to a person, right, everybody on of my faculties or people in seminary that I've sat down with that said, "Hey, this is who I am.
I'm gay. This is what I experience." They've been amazing, right? They've been very affirming and loving. And and it's been an amazing experience to, to sit down with my other seminary teachers and share my orientation. And I've done that multiple times. Currently, the faculty I'm on is the first time that everybody on the faculty has known. And again, it just changes when I come to work. And it just makes a different experience for me.
And so today, right, I said, "Hey, I'm doing this podcast, you might have students that will say, hey, I've heard that brother Barrow is gay. And what are we going to say about that? How are we going to talk about that?" And they're amazing, right? And they're just and, and everybody and so to answer your
question, right? Everybody on our faculty, if you if you experience any part part of an LGBTQ spectrum, right, if you're gay, trans, you have an affirming teacher in our building, they would welcome you, they would love you, they would honor you and your experience. And if you don't feel that when you come to the class, let them know. You don't have to you have to come out to
them. But let them know that hey, I think we could do more to make this be a loving and safer place because they want to, the teachers want to have that happen. They might not know how and so the students might have to help us learn how we create a
safe space for them. And so if you're even if you're straight, if you're an ally, and you feel like you know what this classroom is not a safe place for my gay friends, then let the teacher know and say, hey, what can we do to create safer spaces, because I know the teachers that I work with, everybody wants that they want everyone to come into the building and feel like, they're welcome. And they're valued. And you can bring yourself just as you are. And we want to honor that.
Alec, I love that answer. You know, if we were to say, you know, how do we create a safe place for students? Ask the students.
Ask the students. I love that too.
Someone at BYU just asked me recently, like, how do I help create a safe place for LGBTQ students at BYU. I was like, I don't know, as the LGBTQ students, I'm a student anymore, right. And this idea of like, if we're trying to help a population, but talk to that population, and it's that adage that's in the diversity community of nothing about us without us. So if we're gonna be trying to create a safe space for LGBTQ students, talk to the students.
Well, and I've had teachers, right, they'll call up and they'll ask and say, What resources or what quote, or what, how could I? Could I honestly, you know, it's just you right you just right be you be loving, be affirming, Be kind, be open, don't act like we know, stuff we don't know, don't teach things that aren't true. Right? We do this thing where we feel like we have to give an answer to something that we don't know. And so it's okay to say no, I have no idea about
that. But I'm really glad you're here. And I do know that you are loved, and that Jesus is the Christ and the church has been restored. And the Book of Mormon is a great place to go to get peace and answers. And you are loved by prophets and apostles. And I have no idea the answer that question that you just asked. And that's okay.
Your boy Nephi has been doing that since day one: "I don't know all things but I know God loveth his children."
That is that is the only scripture I have hanging in the front of my classroom. And I refer to it frequently.
Really?
Yeah, absolutely. Because I'll just like people ask questions like, I have got no idea. But I do know that God loves his children. And I do want to share with my students, if, if you're in a space where you feel like wait a second, oh, God wouldn't do that. Right? That can't be. It's because we need to figure out what else is going on around it that God interacts with his children in a
way that he loves them. And if it feels like it looks like, it's not love, that, at least for me, personally, I want to kind of readjust that and figure out where is the love in that, because I know he only operates from a place of love. And if you're approaching God, and you're having a worship experience, I don't care if it's in my class, or if it's in church, or wherever it might be, even on your own with the
scriptures. And you come away from that experience, feeling less about yourself, feeling like there's something wrong with me, then we've done the experience wrong. Because right, because God would never send the message that there's something wrong with you, and you're not okay with me.
That's beautiful. You know, what you just said right now is you know, everyone should should leave a classroom feeling like they are loved that they are whole and that they belong. And, you know, thank you for talking about how we can do that. And just thank you for sharing your story today.
Yeah, I appreciate your bravery and your willingness to do this. This is this is cool. And congratulations on coming out publicly.
Thank you. I think the work you all are doing is a gift. And I think you've blessed lives. You've blessed mine. And I know you're blessing others. o thank you for letting me be a part of i
Thanks for the work that we are all doing now Alec. Than you for joining us today. If you have enjoyed this or other pisodes, please consider leaving a review following us on Ins agram or Facebook at @questi nsfromthecloset or sharing thi podcast with someone you lov . And as always, please remembe that we do not represent the hurch of Jesus Christ of L tter-day Saints or Brig am Young University or semin ries and institutes. We are not rying to be prescriptive or te l anyone what to think or wh
You heard three perspectives and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices in here a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecl set@gmail.com. Until next ti e.