How can we talk about LGBTQ topics at church?

It was really interesting, as I was called, I had a really strong impression that I needed to make sure that everyone in our Ward felt loved and cared for, regardless of their circumstance. I wasn't necessarily thinking of LGBTQ people. At that point, I was thinking of financial circumstance, questions about the gospel, people who were single, mothers who were single mothers, and some people who had never married and were well into

their 40s and 50s. I was thinking about all of those people and thinking, "How can we create a ward, where everyone feels like they belong here, like there's a place for them? So nobody goes home on Sunday feeling unfulfilled, or unwanted." And so that was kind of a feeling I had at the very beginning. And I had been serving probably about four or five months, when I started to feel like we need to have a discussion as a ward about the

LGBTQ community. I think that's probably, well that was probably on my mind, because--as in a previous calling, I was the Young Men's President--and I had two young men that I served with--or that were in the priest quorum when I was young men's president--that went served missions, came home, and then came out as gay, and then subsequently left the church. And, and that was really surprising to me. I had no clue,

no inclination before. And then it started me to thinking, "Did I do something or say something that made them feel unwanted or uncomfortable?" And I started to think, "If I had two when I was Young Men's President, there's probably two or three or four of my young men right now, who may be having those same exact questions. And there may be others in the ward, that I'm not even thinking about. And so I started to think "We need to have this discussion in the

ward." So we had a discussion in the bishopric meeting, and I brought it up and the bishopric was fairly, fairly open to the idea--a few reservations. They were--that I had comments of, "Yeah, I think this would be a good thing." And others, like, "You know, you're going to open up a can of worms with this." So we had a little bit of discussion, but we came to a conclusion as a bishopric, that we should move forward with

this. And then we opened up the idea to the Ward Council, which really created a lively debate. There were members of the Ward Council, some who said, "This is a huge mistake. You are--this is not what we're supposed to be doing as a Ward Council. This is not the direction we should be going. And we're just going to have a problem with this." Other members were were very open to it. In fact, one of them said, "It's about time, we had this discussion." So we had the full

gamut of discussion. And then so we took all everyone's input in. We met as a bishopric again, and we decided to we're gonna do this.

a problem. And, and so we, we discussed it, and, and then I, I, this was probably about in January or February, and I didn't feel prepared at all, to have this discussion with my ward yet. So I felt like I need to prepare. I need to do a lot more research and understanding of this topic before I stand up in front of our entire Ward--all the adults in the ward and have a discussion like this. And so I I started to prepare, and I started reading blogs and, and understanding as much as I

could. And that's Ben, that's where I actually ran into your blog. That's my daughter in law--she pointed it out to me. She said, "Hey, I knew this guy, my freshman year of college, he was a he was a sixth year senior or something like that."

their fears? And what was life like growing, growing up for them.?And I just started learning a lot, I learned just so much about the emotional damage and the trauma that people had gone through. And, and then I just devoured everything I could on lds.org it was called lds.org. back then--churchofJesusChrist.org now, which is now called Mormonandgay.org. And I don't know, have they changed the name of it yet?

Ward? Even those who experienced LGBTQ experiences. So that's what that's kind of where things got rolling.

loved. And if I can help those two friends of mine, those two men understand that they're still loved and that there's not any part of them that's rejected by me, that's worth it. And so that's, that kept me going. I started thinking about, "Okay, we're gonna teach the church doctrine, and we're going to be very doctrinal oriented." And then it's kind of switched to "We're going to be very Christ-like, love oriented."

And, and then it evolved over time--to we really need to understand and, and really understand at a deep level, what people are feeling what they're going through. Because I felt like once we understand, then all of a sudden, all of the fears we have of homosexuals, and homosexual behavior, they just melt away. And I would say that, you know, a few years ago, maybe 10 years ago or so, if someone had said, "Hey, I want to I want to come bring my gay friend to your house." I would

have been really nervous. Like, oh my gosh, what what's the agenda here? Why, why do we have a gay person in the house? And like because I was fearful. I did not know. I did not know what, what to think. And once I got to know people, it's like the fears where gone. It's like, nothing to be scared of here. These are just wonderful, good people like all the other wonderful good people that you

have. And they have, they carry something with them that's different than you, which is in many cases, when you reconcile, you're trying to reconcile what they carry with with church doctrine--that's not an easy thing to carry. And the empathy that I started to feel during this process was huge. And I wanted our Ward members to start to feel that empathy. Something you said made me think of something that President Ballard said, when he came to

BYU. I was actually there for this devotional and it was like a Q&A format. And he said, "We need to listen to and understand what our LGBT brothers and sisters are feeling and experiencing. Certainly, we must do better than we've done in the past so that all members feel they have a spiritual home where their brothers and sisters love them, and where they have a place to worship and serve the Lord."

had thought. And I was surprised that I was behind a little bit in my thinking, because--I remember specifically Elder Christofferson, Elder Oaks, Elder Holland and Elder Cook--I ran across quotes from all of them, talking about this issue and how we should be at the forefront of showing love and understanding, not at the back, pointing fingers and and making people feel uncomfortable.

can't hate them. If you really know someone your heart changes.

out of college. And I remembered some of the things that I had said about him to some of my co-workers and some of the things that we had done. Not with him around but but when he was not around--some of the things that we had said and and done. For example, I was in a purchasing office and one time he came down to create a purchase order. And once he left, one of my co workers said, "You know he's gay, right?" And

I said, "What? He's gay?" And so half in jest, half in seriousness, we went to the janitor's closet and got some disinfectant and cleaned the whole area where he had been sitting. And I look back at that, and thought, "Oh, my heavens, what an embarrassment.I

was to myself." And as I was sitting there preparing my talk, or my presentation, it occurred to me: "How can you go and make a presentation like this until you've tracked down this person and made it right with them?" So through--I hadn't worked with this guy for over 20 years--and through through social media, I was able to track him down. And I reached out to him and said, "Hey, my name is Carl Hull. We used to work together a long, long time ago. Not sure if you

remember me." And he responded back said, "Yeah, I think I remember you." We were never really close at all. And I said, "Are you still in the area?" And he said, "Yeah, I'm still in the area." I said, "Would you be willing to meet with me?" And he said, "Yeah. Okay." And so we met together at a Starbucks coffee house. I bought him a cappuccino. First time I've ever bought a cappuccino in my life. And I bought me a hot chocolate and we sat down and I said, "You probably are wondering what I

want to meet with you." And he said, "Yeah, I kind of did." And so I told him a little bit about, about my experience. And I said, "I'm here to ask for your forgiveness. Because there was a time, a few times, 20 plus years ago, when I treated you very poorly. And I said things about you because I didn't know you and I didn't understand your situation and I thought you were an evil person. And I'm here to apologize to you and ask for your forgiveness." And he teared up, immediately forgave me,

without any hesitation. And I thought we were done. I thought we were done with our conversation. And he said, "Would you like to hear my story?" And I said, "Sure, I'd love to hear your story." And he opened up for the next 45 minutes to an hour and told me his story. He talked about--he grew up somewhere very similar to Cottonwood Heights area of Salt Lake City, and was very good member of the church and started feeling that he had these feelings as a as a as an early teenager, and wasn't sure

what to do with them. And this would would have been back in the probably late 70s, early 80s, when it was just really a taboo topic. And he talked about how much he hated himself and how much he hated his life. And, and he went, he talked about the times that he was suicidal, and how he felt like if he served a good mission, it would go away. And if he was a good young man, it would go away. And just everything he tried, nothing

would make it go away. And then he finally just came to grips with who he was, and and then didn't see a place for himself in the church, which I can understand, because I don't think there really was much of a place for him there. That as church members, I think we've gotten a lot better, we can still get better. But I think he just didn't see a place for

himself. And so he left and I--so as he unfolded, unfolded his whole story that I had never known -- I didn't know that he was ever even a member of the church. And I found out he had served a mission and served in a bishopric and all these things that he had done, I was just flabbergasted. And and realized that boy, once you start hearing people's stories, and they become people, then it's a lot easier to love them. And not to be fearful of them.

setting. I remember I moved to a new ward in Tucson, Arizona, and I had been asked to give a talk and I asked the bishop beforehand, if I could come out of my talk because it was relevant to the message I wanted to share. And I remember him saying, "I don't see why that would be a problem." So I came out in my talk and I was brand new to the ward, I'd only been there for a couple of weeks. And after my talk about six people came up to introduce themselves and to thank me for being so

open and honest. And to welcome me to the ward. And I immediately knew that that was a place where I could belong. And I didn't do it all the time. But when it was, when it came organically, I would mention being gay and comments or in lessons and, and people were really welcoming and kind and, and I found that I was really able to be myself in that ward because I didn't have to hide

this part of me. And my orientation has been so integral to so much of my spiritual learning and how I progressed on the gospel path and and if I don't share that part of me, then I really can't share all of who I am. How did this process of planning the presentation on unfold?

cold. It's just it's boring. It's cold. And it's just it's you're going through a bunch of church quotes and doctrines." She said, "You've got to tell stories." And she said, "You've got to tell the story about the person you reached out to. You've got to tell the stories about people who've experienced this. And you've got to make it people-based and not doctrinal-based." And so I completely changed my entire presentation based upon her

feedback. And we, during the third hour, back when we had a third hour, we made the presentation and it was all--it was a series of stories. And and Ben had actually given me permission to use his picture. So it was a story with a picture. But anyway, we we so we shared the stories. And and I, at the very beginning I had asked the ward--I said, "This is not a discussion. This is a presentation." And I'd asked him to just sit back and listen and and try to feel the Holy Ghost.

And my wife and all of my married kids, and even my single kids too, they all fasted for me. And so we approached this, this meeting fasting, for help. And by the time I stood up, I was already feeling the spirit really strongly. And, and then as the presentation went, I could tell that some members were doing really well, and some were struggling, but they were there. And they were listening. And when we got done, I had quite a few members who came up

and thanked me. I had a couple of members who came up and said, "That was a hard presentation to sit through. But I'm going to go home and think about it, and I'm going to go home and listen to it." And, and overall, it was, it was, I think, extremely well received. I think if you were to go and take a poll of people in our ward, and ask them, "Do we have an accepting and a loving ward?" I think that that by and large, the overwhelming majority would say we have a very loving

ward. And if someone, if someone is does not fit the typical Mormon mold, there's a place for them in our pews.

presentation. And in that one, we actually had a young men, a young man from our stake, who had come out about a year previous that came in and spoke to the youth. And so I made a very similar type of a presentation. And then at the very end, he stood up and shared his personal experience, which made it very powerful because some of the kids knew him. And that was that was a very strong a strong endorsement that okay, yes, this is someone who can be

loved. And so we had that. And then we've had a series of discussions as a ward. Since that time, we've talked about what how should we handle people who have serious doubts and questions about the church? How should we handle people who who don't fit in because their marital status is different than ours, or they never have had that opportunity? And so we've tried to address difficult topics throughout the entire

time. And then when we ever we talk about a difficult, difficult topic, we always refer back to this one. And I think people realize, okay, that was a good experience, we actually had some good results from that. So maybe I can be open minded about the next thing we're going to talk about and, and, and be okay with it. And so it's become a topic that people are not scared of in our a ward. And when it comes up, I think it's we've also talked about that when it comes up in the ward, jokes

about gays are not accepted. The comments that are derogatory are just not accepted anywhere at any class in our ward. And we hope it stays that way forever. As you've been talking, I keep thinking about these two original young men that you

talked about. And a piece of advice that I often give to people as--I have a lot of seminary teachers or gospel doctrine, teachers reach out to me and ask how they can make their classes more friendly towards the LGBTQ community--and a piece of advice I give is treat every lesson as if there's a an LGBTQ individual in the room, because most likely there is. And I don't know, I'm just it's so incredible to hear the

story. And imagine myself 10 or 15 years ago, in this ward in a youth group and having that sort of resource and realizing that-- so often, I feel like there's so many, like my church experience growing up has been so beautiful and and my testimony is very strong, but it's also so coupled with derogatory comments or so many like little daggers that say, "We love you, but you're not welcome here." And it's always coupled by this "I don't know if i actually belong here."

Or for years I felt like if people knew who I was, or this the side of me that they wouldn't accept me I wouldn't be welcomed. I wouldn't be asked to say a prayer or be sent on a ministering assignment--just just so many so many little things and I'm so happy for your ward and for for anyone in that world who is LGBTQ because they never have to feel out again.

And they can go and sit on the pew and feel comfortable with who they are and have a place where they can worship and connect with God and and feel the power of Jesus Christ without worrying if they're safe there. And that's so beautiful.

I believe that as well. And since that presentation, we had, I had two or three members that came in and talked to me about their personal experiences. And we've had several comments from members of the ward over the last few years, that that point back to that conversation, "Oh, boy, I'll never forget the spirit that was in that meeting," or "I'll never forget what I learned in that meeting." Or "I'll never forget how my thinking started to change

because of that meeting." So I really, I think that we all took another step toward Christ. I really do. Because I don't think Christ rejects. I think Christ is always encouraging, and always loving. And I guess the other thing I learned from that experience, is that as a bishop, I want to make sure that anytime anyone leaves my office, they feel an increased level of hope, and not a not a downer, or, "Oh, man, I'm really in trouble. Now.

I've got a problem." I want them to leave the office feeling like "Wow, I can do this, I can I can get through this." And I can--and if I can help, then I think that's what the Savior would do--is He would always give someone a reason to hope. And I want everyone in my ward to have that reason for hope, regardless of what their

situation is. And what what I've often told members of our Ward is, the people in our Ward who don't have serious challenges and problems in their, in their, in their lives, are the people you really haven't gotten to know very well yet. Everyone is carrying some type of a burden. And some of those burdens are silent. And some of them are kind of out in the open. But the silent burdens are the ones that are there that where people are suffering and you don't know it.

And we need to do all we can to let them let those people know that they can open up and they can share their burdens, and they're going to find acceptance and love in our ward.

And then and I gave him some ideas about the lesson and and then afterwards, he told me how it had gone. And I was living in Arizona at the time. He said, "Ben, if you're ever up in Utah, we'd love to have you over for dinner." So a couple months later, I was actually in Utah. And so I emailed him, I said, "Hey, I'm in Utah, that dinner invitation still stands." And as I was driving your house at that, "What am I doing? I don't know, these people." I was like, "Well, at the very least, it'll

be a good story to tell." And so I rang the doorbell. And then when you opened the door, I was gonna shake your hand, and you just said, "In this house, we hug our heroes," and you gave me a hug. And I just knew that I was going to be welcomed and loved there. And we talked all about these stories that you're sharing and, and I just felt so much hope that someone like you, who didn't really have a strong connection to the LGBTQ world, had felt a prompting from the Holy Ghost to do something, and

then did it. And you acted on it and it wasn't the easiest thing to do. It took a lot of work. And you helped a lot of people. And I have no doubt that there are "Carls" all over the church who are receiving promptings and having the courage to act on them.

all go to the meeting. And there's a guest speaker there that who we all expected is probably you know, some very renowned therapist and really knows the topic well and can really help out. And so after the opening song and prayer, and the the short introduction, Joseph Stith stands up, and he starts out and says, "Hello, my name is BrotherJoseph Stith. I was a former Bishop, and I'm gay." And and we were all just

stunned. We all sit back in our seats like we're being taught here by a gay man and our Stake President's okay with it? And that was one of the first eye-opening experiences that I had. So our Stake President, really, really cut the ice for all of our bishops and all of the members of the stake PEC to think start reframing how we think about this topic. And that was a huge step.

still loved. They don't have to be active and involved with us in order to be loved. They are just loved because they're part of God's family. And we're all part of that. And that's, that's how we look at it. I mean, we, we want them to feel like there's a place for them. And that they we hope that being around us will help them want to stay involved in the Gospel and involved in the church. But that's not the basis of our caring about them. That we care

about them no matter what. And they're loved no matter what.

And we can put that blog post in the show notes.