Welcome to Questions from the Closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.
And I'm Charlie Bird. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, how can my child be just like you?
Ben and I are not terribly diverse, and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both really don't want to be viewed as poster boys for being gay and staying in the church.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, Charlie is literally on a poster because he's gay and staying in the church.
I like to be on posters. I don't want to be a poster boy, but I want to be a boy on a poster.
Yes. I mean, you you literally have a poster of you.
And caveat, it's the cover of my book. It' a very...
It's a very good picture, too.
They're actually like all over the country in Deseret Books.
Well, that's awesome. So you're a literal poster boy.
It makes me happy.
A boy on a poster.
But don't make me a poster child. We'd like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. So today, we're joined by Jessica Fullmer.
Hi.
So tell us a little about yourself, Jessica.
Yeah, so I'm a lesbian. So that's probably why I'm on this podcast. I had a video come out on mormonandgay.org a few years ago, and recently had it taken down within the last year. I teach PE. I'm a coach. I have a wonderful wife, and a home and two dogs and two cats. So...
So you're a lesbian who teaches PE?
Isn't that weird? I know. It's so shocking.
And Jessica, when Mormon and Gay came out, you were one of the featured videos.
Yeah. Yeah, I was it was one of the one of the five videos that was featured on the site.
All right, well, what was that experience like for you?
It was, it was definitely an experience. At first I had released that video, mostly, I think, to help bring it understanding and help others to see that this isn't a choice, because I think I was just as shocked as anybody when I realized my attractions. And so my biggest thing was just wanting to get people to see that. When it actually went out and released there was a mix of responses for sure. I had so many people that were loving and
kind and amazing. There were a lot of people that were not kind and amazing. Overall, I think the hardest part of it was probably feeling a sense of being a poster child of being set up as this person to look,
You were like the original poster child.
Kinda but not, not... I don't know.
Well, yeah. Well, I remember when the site came, I was a nobody in Tucson, Arizona, and I, I listened to a lot of podcasts. And there were a couple episodes of shows that was, talked about you and Josh. And people saying, oh, they're just setting up this poster children. They're gonna fail someday. And yeah, and people, it sounds like people were pretty harsh.
It was rough. And that's what I don't think many people understand is that it's difficult on so many planes and different aspects, like, even from those that were saying that I was going to fail, because that was truly what I was trying to do at that time. I didn't, I didn't have life experience. And still to this point, I don't, I'm on my journey. However, at that time, I had set what I was going to do for the next 50 years. And to tell somebody that I was wrong. Or to tell me that
I was wrong. That was really difficult to hear.
You said what you're gonna do for the next 50 years? Like what kind of message Did you share that, that set that expectation?
Yeah, so I think the main message that I regret putting out was that the only way to do it was to stay celibate in the church. And in the church is relative because you can be in the church and not celibate but like covenant keeping, going to the temple, things like that, while not having romantic relations with someone of the same sex was kind of what I set out to be. However, there were a lot of really great things in that video that I still agree with, and I'm really glad got out
there. But I feel like it was semi overshadowed by me being the person that you should be like instead of the other things I was trying to get across. Definitely. I remember watching this video when I was closeted. I watched them all. I drank everything on this website, because it was all we really had, you know? Your video gave me a lot of hope. It really did. And it, it changed my
perspective on some things. And it helped me realize I think, I think more than anything watching these videos made me realize that there were other people like me. And in a sense, like even you sharing your dedication to the gospel and desire to stay in the church was, kind of bolstered me in a
way. It was empowering to me that's to see that somebody else wanted to keep God in their life, despite all of the constant messaging that we've always internalized that we can't, or that we're not allowed to. That was so helpful to me. And it's just so interesting to look back and see how something that was so helpful and so beautiful for so many people was also kind of used as a weapon against you. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I really appreciate you saying
that for sure. Because it, it's something that brings up a lot of emotion in me still, because it's during that whole time, not only was it difficult, like at this point, I look back and sometimes have a hard time not seeing it as a failure. Like that was my goal. That was what I was going to do. And now that this has been taken down, you know, I have had a lot of people respond, saying that I have failed. You know? That I didn't think that you would do this. I didn't think that you would go a
different way or whatever. And so it has kind of painted it as being a failure. Whereas my purpose of setting out that video wasn't to put a goal out there that this was what I was going to do. My purpose was to bring understanding and love and kindness to something that I hadn't even understood up until I dealt with it. Charlie, like Jessica, you came out in a very public way that everyone saw.
Yeah. Yeah, I did. And this is actually something I was aware of, and kind of afraid of, before I came out, I was watching people I was watching you, literally, like watching a video of you. For probably about six years, I was just silent. And I was watching. And I was trying to see what other people were doing, and what looked healthy, and what looked unhealthy. And I was trying to
look for trends. And one of the trends I saw was that people who were set up as poster children, as this is, you know, the beacon, the light, what you're supposed to strive to. all of them change their course, every, every person I saw. And for a couple years that really hurt my feelings. I don't know how else to describe it. Other than that my feelings were really hurt. And I was looking to these people, almost as like fallen
stars. Like people who were guiding me and giving me hope and making me feel like I can really do it. Whatever it is, you know, but in this case, no, I knew exactly what it was. It was like denying myself and stay in the church. Like that was the only vision I could see. But then one by one, they were in my mind picked off. Right? And, and were failing. That was really hard for me. And it took me a while to realize that everyone's just doing the best they can with the knowledge they have.
Right? And I truly believe that's what you were doing. And like your intentions were pure, and were good. And this space is so ambiguous. And sometimes I just feel like a ship in the middle of the sea that just gets torn in different directions. And I think I'm going this way or supposed to go this way. And then all of a sudden, something just like sideswipes, me and now I'm in a different part of the
world. Right? And as I was learning this, this kind of like disappointment and sadness became more of like a sympathy. Right? And also, this, I was very conscious that as soon as I came out, this was going to happen to me too. And I did not want that. I don't know, like, I guess I'm sorry. And thank you, in a way because you taught me what happens, because everyone is looking for an answer. Like everyone's looking for a silver
bullet answer. And as soon as someone says something, the rest of the church wants to be like, oh, they're doing it, you can be just like them. Be like them and make us comfortable. And that just doesn't happen.
Exactly.
So when I give firesides this happens regularly, a parent will come up to me after and they'll say, I have a gay son and I wish he were just like you. And I hate that. Like it, that is the worst thing someone could say to me. Because no one should try and be like me, right? Like everyone should just be the best version of them. And what I tell these parents is in Second Peter Chapter One, Peter lists nine
Christ-like attributes. And then he says if all these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. And I say be grateful for any way that your child is emulating the attributes of Jesus Christ. Because as they do that, they're going to come closer to him, whether they're in the church or not. If we're becoming like, Jesus, that's what really counts.
I love that. I love that.
And, but it is really hard when people say like, I want my kid to be like you. Like, you know this guy I had a relationship with years ago, he once told me that, that I'm everything his mom wishes he could be.
Yep.
And like that just sucks, like...
It really is. Yeah, I remember having multiple
That's devastating. messages like that as well. I had in my video, I specifically remember talking about my aunt and, and she's, was kind of the example. However, there were many other family members that were just like her that treated me the same way, but treated me with unconditional love. And the one thing that I said in my video was that my aunt said she loved me and she loved me no
matter what I chose to do. And I remember getting messages from others that were like, there was actually one specific message that sticks out in my mind. And somebody messaged and said, Well, I did that. I told my daughter that I loved her no matter what she chose to do. And she didn't go in the church. She didn't stay in the church though so now what? And she's like, it doesn't always work. And I'm like, that wasn't the point. Like that wasn't the point of it
at all. You know, like that the point wasn't, the ultimate goal isn't to get them to stay in the church or worthy or whatever. The ultimate goal is to love them. Like, you just need to love them. That's, that's the bottom answer. And...
Yeah, and that messaging just comes with this undercurrent of, you're good, and I respect you because of something you're doing. But if you did something else, then the goodness I see in you and the respect I have for you would be gone. And I don't think that's how the Savior loves. I get
these messages a lot. Me and Ben talk about them quite often, and we'll even share them with eac other, a mom or an uncle or jus Well, you even got a message like last week were someone, a anyone being like, I wish tha my kid was like you. And... mom was like, I have a gay son, could you please write him a letter and help him know like, how we can live like you?
Yeah.
And and you wrote back, you know, he shouldn't be like me, he should be him.
Yeah, you have to be you. And I think if we're drawing comparisons and trying to like conform, and I feel conflicted about this, I don't even know if I know what to say about this topic. Because there's so much ambiguity, and so much changes all the time. And people make these, like, wishes of what they want someone else to be based on a lot of things that they're assuming about me that may or may not be
true, you know? And so I don't think you can ever know everything about a person and their viewpoints and their experiences, and then try to prescribe that to someone else. That's just, it doesn't work. And I think about the creation of humankind, and how one of the first most beautiful gifts God gave us even as like spirits in the premortal life was agency that we have the ability to choose. And there is so much
power. It is so godlike to honor someone's agency and trust their decisions and allow them to move through life in the way that they see fit, and support them in that. I think that's what God does to me.
Yeah.
And so shouldn't I give that to someone else?
I love that. Absolutely.
One of the hard things has been for me, and I'm not, like when I cry I'm like a happy crier. Like I'm watching Extreme
Yeah.
Like he was erased. And I was just sobbing. I thought, I Makeover Home Edition and like, a soldier comes home you know, hat doesn't make me cry. But, ut the day Josh's video got tak n off of Mormon and Gay I sobb d. I sobbed. And this is why. Because I'm like, you guys, I di n't just like burst onto the cene. I've had like a very slow burn. Like I started blog ing. And so very slowly, peop
e got to know who I was. And o it was this very incremental hing where I got to like, cclimate to people knowing who was. And still a lot of people on't know who I am so. So it asn't such a big, a big shift or me like it was for you guys. osh, on a Facebook video said hat he was, was engaged to a man. And then that same day, his video was taken off of Mormon and Gay. And I didn't know at the time that it was coordinated And so I thought the moment h said he was in a relationship they erased him.
thought if I make any mistakes they're going to erase me too.
Oh interesting.
Like, I'm going to be erased.
Or not even mistakes, if you make any decision that other people don't agree with you'll be erased, you know?
And I realized that I had this like, really visceral reaction to that experience, because there was this deep seated fear in me that if I made certain choices, people were just gonna get rid of me.
Oh, absolutely. It's that's so fascinating. You say that, because I feel like when my video did go out, and it kind of went big, I was getting all of these calls and messages like, hey, like, come speak here. I had somebody fly me out to speak in California. And I was getting, you know, all of these people that were wanting me to speak and then as soon as my video was taken down, as soon as I announced, hey, you know, I've taken a shift. I've, I'm with somebody, and I'm getting
married to a woman. It was almost like I, what I had to say didn't have any merit anymore. Like what I had to say didn't matter. It didn't, um, it wasn't valid anymore, because I wasn't living the way that other people thought I should be living. It's so hard to be a hero one day and a villain the next.
Yeah! Yeah.
And I'm just so sad that we do that to people, because that's so much weight. And that's so much unnecessary trauma.
Oh absolutely.
It's like people put us on a pedestal then it's just easy to push us off.
Yeah. Right. And and what's so sad is it's so interesting, because it was a lot of the culture and more of some of the members that were putting that on me versus the leadership, which is what's fascinating is that I was in contact with a lot of, you know, higher people in the church headquarters and things like that, and they were more loving to me and more understanding than I got from any other
member. I mean, they more so than anybody they, I remember the first thing that one of them said when I said hey, you know, this is where I'm going. They said, thank you and you did it. They said you did it. You did what you were supposed to do, and we are so proud of you. And I just cried. I just cried. I said, you know, I keep feeling like I failed. And they're like, no, like you did what you were
supposed to do. And so getting that validation helped the healing process, but it didn't help the culture, and the overall church culture to see that in me as well. They saw it the other way as though somebody had fallen. And, and I think that's what's difficult, because when my video came out, I felt like I was helping all these
people. But now that I look back, I actually had some feelings of feeling sorry, a little bit, because I didn't want to have other gays see me and say, I can't be like her, like, why can't I be like her? Like, why, you know, my, my parents are disappointed in me, or I don't measure up to her. So I had that guilt. But then when I took my video down and was living this way. It's now the ones that, you know, were living in the church, and they're like, wow, there goes another one. You
know? So either way you go, it's almost like you failed, you know. And like, at the same time, gosh, I feel conflicted about saying this, but I feel like I need to, sometimes I worry that in certain aspects, I might be giving someone a false hope. Because I have such an incredible support system. I have connections. I don't, like my identity isn't compounded by any other forms of
intersectionality. And I like have healthy people and healthy coping mechanisms that have allowed me to deal with some really, really difficult situations and move through hard topics. And not everyone has those privileges, right? And so sometimes I'm like, who am I, like, how could I ever say you can be just like me, when a lot of people just don't? They can't, you know, they don't have the same systems, they don't the same supports or strengths.
Yeah, one thing I tell people is like, I was dealt the easiest hand of cards. Like as far as being like a gay Latter-day Saint, like I was given, like, the easiest hand, Right? Like, I'm still cisgender. And I'm tall and white and male. And, like, I look the part and...
You look good on a poster.
I look great on a poster. I look so good on a poster.
In the living room and Deseret Book.
And yeah, and so like people are willing to listen to me because I don't look scary to them.
Yeah.
No, but if I look differently, or if I had a different background, what I still get the same voice? I, probably not.
Right. Right.
I guess sometimes I'll get a message. And someone will say like, you know, what I do with like, my family, they, they're just like, they don't accept me, and they're so unkind of I don't know. That, that wasn't my experience. And yeah, it's tough when people like, look to us, look to us for all these answers when everyone's got their own, their own answers inside of them.
Absolutely. I think one of the things that kind of just brought up something that has helped me a little bit in the past, because I obviously fully understand what it's like to be on the other side, where some family members or loved ones are very hard and are very difficult and can't wrap their heads around it or whatever. Something that's helped me the most was my, my psychologist, she, there were two things, one thing was "and statements". So "and statements" have helped me so
much. So when you look at a situation, it's not all like, you know, my family hates me. It's, my family doesn't like this part of me, and they still love me. You know? And they love me or whatever, that's helped a lot. But the second thing is helped me is she said, everybody has their own ships that they've created. And they've created it off of perspectives and beliefs.
And when something comes along, to question that or to bring a different view, you have two choices, you can either allow that to come in and rebuild your ship, or you can, you know, reject that and not allow it in. So essentially, when I'm coming to others, no matter what it is, if I'm saying hey, like, you know, look at how happy I am in my marriage, you know, and they, that scares them. Or, hey, look, it's you know, same sex attraction or sexuality in general, that's not a choice,
any of those things. It helps me to look at it and say, I'm, I'm asking them to sink their ship for me, you know, I'm asking them to rebuild what they've built and what they've, they're standing on. And that's a scary thing for them. And it doesn't mean that I can't be hurt by that or that it, you know, doesn't make me upset. But it also gives me the opportunity to have empathy to say, that's a pretty scary thing to sink your ship for me.
That's a really, that's a really kind and gracious way to look at people.
It's hard. It's not, I don't do all the time. You can ask my wife. I'm not very good at it. But it does help when I get to that point. We mentioned this in a previous episode. And Ben, maybe you could tell the story because it's kind of your story. Nah, I'm gonna steal it. Because I felt a similar thing that you said, like, the time that you decided to, like, keep staying in the church was the time that you allowed yourself to leave
the church. Sometimes I feel like we box ourselves in, we corner ourselves in by saying what we're gonna do, and by like cutting off all other options are all other ways to look at life. And that makes us more stressed. And it makes it harder to do what we're saying we're going to do. You know? Because, again, I guess it just comes back to honoring agency, because you're taking away your ability
to choose, right? I don't think the gift of agency is so much about making the right choices as it is understanding a human's ability to choose and make decisions and have personal autonomy. And if you're like, restricting yourself and forcing yourself into something, with the knowledge that you do have. It might be beautiful. It might
be right. But if that knowledge shifts, if you're not willing to reassess, and kind of, like I guess, like you were saying, rebuild a ship, or, like figure out if you want to put up a different mast and like, change your course, you're gonna be really anxious, you know?
And because for years, like, I felt like I was trapped, like I exactly had any choice, but this choice, and then once I allowed myself to see other choices, it's like in Second Nephi, chapter two, like you can't make a choice unless you're like enticed by the one or the other. Like, you have to see these possibilities. And when I opened up the possibilities, I was able to actually make the choice that felt right to me.
I love that. Well, I mean, and each, anybody that's LGBT, I think, has had their ship sunk at some point. I mean, majority of the people that are LGBT grew up thinking that their life was gonna be, you know, a straight being attracted to the opposite sex normal life. And then they had to sink their ship. And so we've all been through it at one point or another. And it's, it's terrifying. It's a hard place to be.
Yeah. And I've even felt led to places that I thought were wrong and sinful, like, like, even just identifying as gay and using the word gay, I used to think was a sin. All growing up, I wouldn't do it. And then I felt a shift. And I felt like I should say that and label myself that way. And that opened me and allowed me to be more of myself and felt comfortable. And so you just never know what's gonna come,
Yeah. I could talk about my psychologist all time. you know? She's helped me through this problem.
She sounds amazing. Give me her number.
She's amazing. Give me her number. Everybody needs therapy, but everybody should have her as their therapist, but she brought the visual to me of a weeble wobble. Those toys that, that, I don't even know because I wasn't. I don't think I was old enough to know what they were.
Hopefully some of our more mature listeners will be...
...like a weeble wobble is now it's in a song or something. Yeah.
Weeble wobble. Weeble wobble. Weeble wobble.
Yeah. That's what I just sing every time. Apparently, it was a toy. Back in the day, that was entertaining. But yeah, she said that, they never fall over. They always they they'll go down, but they pop right back up. They're, they're shiftable. You can push it any way and it'll go and just come right back up. And so she's like, that's what you want your life to be based around because you don't know what's going to come, what's going to change.
And that helps the shift, when you do start seeing it instead of having like quarterlife crisises like I had three years ago. Well, and I feel like with that, there's like this idea of solidifying your core values in your beliefs. And like, even if you change directions, like you're married now....
Yeah.
...to a woman, which is something you never imagined.
Nope.
It seems like you still have a strong relationship with God. Prayer as part of your life. You have core values. You have morals. You have boundaries and standards. And you didn't let all of that go. Just because you made a decision.
Absolutely. Yeah. And that that was one of the most, if not the most important thing. And that's what we've made sure, in our relationship to notice in times where we're like, hey, we need to make God more a part of our life or, or whatever. But I feel like at this point, it's helped me even more so to get closer to God, because I feel like I was doing like what you said. I took away my agency, and I feel like I was like, hey, you know, this is the way I'm supposed to go. This is what I'm
supposed to do. And I just did it. Because I was told I was supposed to do it versus now. You know, I'm, quote, unquote, on the other side, and now I'm doing things because I feel that that's what I should do. And I feel compelled to do kind things or to get closer to God and not just do it because it's part of the checklist or because it's what I'm told to do. One metaphor I try and tell people is if you tell people to try and be like me, it's like taking off my glasses and giving
them to someone else. Like that's just gonna give them blurry vision and a headache. And instead, like, we talk all the time about personal revelation. And we talked about principles. And I think that that that we share a lot of principles that I think are valuable and helpful, but but anyone who tries to like, emulate us. Like, that's just like trying to put on our glasses.
No, absolutely.
Well, you don't you don't wear glasses.
Well. I don't so that would be really rough.
It would be especially difficult.
It was difficult.
Yeah, if you're trying to live somebody else's life path you're inevitably going to fail, because it's not your life path. Right? Well, and you don't know what you're supposed to do or learn in this life, like you don't know if I'm supposed to be on this path to learn things, or, I mean, we just really don't know. Everybody was born and has been given different tools and abilities and things that they
need to learn. And so to say one person needs to stay on this exact same road and how to stay on that road is is pretty crazy. To say that for everybody. In a way, that's scary, right?
Because shouldn't there be like one gospel, one faith, but in a way, like it just makes so much sense because if if Christ really is our personal Savior, if Alma chapter seven is real, and that he, he suffered for us, he felt us, he knows who we are, then isn't everyone's like life path, like the ultimate goal just to connect with Jesus Christ?
Right.
And like, take that, that that is the gospel path, like connecting with the Savior and understanding personal revelation and agency, and how to move and how to repent and change course and use the love of God to guide your life. That is, that's the straight and narrow path. Right?
Yeah. That's the path that everyone needs to be on. And, in that way it is universal. That's so interesting, because I had a very specific experience with that. When the site had gone out, when my video had gone out. That was the hardest year of my life. I mean, by far, because I had pinned myself in this box. I did not allow for more space. I said, this is what I'm going to do. And this is how I'm going to do it.
How old were you at the time?
24
Oh, you're just a kid.
I know. I'm still just I'm 29 now, but yeah. But in five years can do a lot. But um, yeah, I had pinned myself in this box at such a younger age. And it was, it was so interesting that whole year, because it was the like I said, the most difficult year of my life. I didn't want to live. I felt like I had literally taken away my purpose, which was so interesting, because when I had released that video, at that time, when I was asked to make a video, I was trying to figure
out how to live this life. I was like, okay, how do I do this without being in a romantic relationship with someone of the same sex? Like, how am I going to do this. And so when I released a video, I'm like, I want this to bring understanding to others. And this can also be a purpose for me, like, maybe I can go out and speak. And maybe
this can be my purpose. However, when I released that video, and I had pretty much put myself in the box that there were no other options I literally felt like I had taken away my life, like I had taken away my whole drive and purpose in life. And that whole year, I did not want to live. I mean, I, I have never been that low and that suicidal ever. And I was making really poor choices to cope with the pain that I was dealing with. I remember just laying in my bed for days at a time and in a very
dark, dark basement. And I remember talking to one of my family members, and they said, do you really think that like what you're doing right now is the path that you're supposed to be on? And they're very, very LDS. And I was like, well, yeah, of course, like I'm celibate. I read my scriptures every day. I'm praying. This is the path I'm supposed to be on. And like no, like laying in your bed every day you can't help people. You can't go, you're not, you're
not able to really function. Is this where you're supposed to be? Versus how would you be if you were in a relationship with someone? Would you be able to help? Would you be more service oriented? Would you get out of your bed, you know, and it was just it kind of clicked for me that it's not about the checkboxes that it's about being able to enjoy life and also, you know, be compelled and feel the desire to serve. And I can say that being married, you know, to Savannah has changed my life
immensely. I mean, I, I would never change putting out that video despite how difficult it was. But because it's brought me to where I'm married to Savannah, I wouldn't change anything. And I am out of my bed every day. I am, you know, I want to live. I have this spark and fire for life now because of her and I, I serve her and she serves me and we're working
through life together. And I'm able to learn about relationships and there's so many things that I'm able to Learn and serve and do now that I would have never been able to do in my bed, you know, when I was there for that year.
Jessica, tell us a little more like how did you get to a point where you got out of your bed so that everyone can do exactly what you did? Of course.
Well, you should so follow what I do.
Here's a prescription.
Here's the answer everybody. Um, no, I, I think it really was just those small moments where I was given just a glimpse of hope that, that I shouldn't put myself in this box. I finally kind of punched through the box and open my mind and said, if there's another possibility, if there's another option to live life in a different way than in my bed, then I'll take it. And literally Savannah came right then. Like, it was the most interesting
thing. We were just a friendship at that point, and I was really, really struggling and the friendship just blossomed, and everything just fell perfectly into place. It's so interesting. So I know that this to the to the LDS culture can kind of seem like heresy or whatever. But I really opened my mind to God's will, which is what's interesting is that I instead said, no, God wants me to do
this. I know that. Like, this is all I'm going to do versus hey, if there's a way you want me to live, and to open my mind and to move forward, then I'd be willing and Savannah came in. And, you know, we've been together three, three and a half years. And it's that has, it changed everything for me.
You know, it's interesting what you're saying about, you know, feeling trapped? Because it's Satan, who says, There's no other way.
Right.
It makes us feel trapped.
Right. Exactly. And that's a scary place to be for anyone. Yeah, but it's also scary, too. Because I mean, punching out of that box is a scary thing to because you don't know what's outside of it. Right? And, and I'm not, you know, this isn't, I'm not trying to say like, you know, look at other religion, look at whatever. I mean, I'm still I'm, I love my Savior. I, you know, and I'm, I work on my relationship with God and my
Savior. But yeah, pinning yourself in that box is a scary, scary place to be.
I'm gonna put a poster of you in my room.
I'm gonna steal your poster and put it in my room. So it'll be perfect. Jessica, I remember, when your video came out, I was listening to podcasts where people were talking about you, I just remember thinking, I'm rooting for this girl. Like whatever happens I'm rooting for her.
You're so nice.
And like you have, like, such beautiful energy, like, I just want to keep rooting for you.
Ah, you're just so sweet.
I want to root for you too. And like, I feel good. Like, I feel the spirit. I felt the spirit and goodness as we've had this conversation. And I don't know if this is worth anything. But I'm grateful to you for putting out your video and being courageous and doing what you felt you needed to do when you felt you needed to do it. Even if that changed. And it helped me and helped a lot of people. And it also, like, I don't know, gosh, this is so
selfish. But like, watching your path helped me figure out how to do mine a little bit better. And take some precautions. I mean, this is completely uncharted, right, this idea of like, gay LDS fame is so weird. And like, and people just get thrust into it and watching you and seeing the good things you did. And the ways that you maybe got boxed in or tripped up really helped me create a safer space for myself. And I'm sorry that it was that way for you. But thank you, because you helped me.
Thank you. And I, I'm grateful for those, I mean, I hate to say like, after me, because I don't feel like I was really ever anything but like those, you know, that have stepped in and have, you know, tried to open, open the conversation with this because I think each step, I mean, you had, you know, people before me that I was looking at that I was like, okay, you know, they at least put out a video and they've said that they're gay. Like that was the big thing then right was that I have to
say same sex attraction. And so I finally got to the point with that video that I can say gay. And so you know that, that was my video was like, it helped me say gay.
Like honestly, what a win! What a win!
I know. Like they let me to, like, say that I was gay. So that was perfect. But, but yeah, I think each step that you learn about it, and that's the biggest thing is I hope that anybody that moves in afterwards, you don't have to, I just don't want anybody to put themselves in a box. Like you said, I don't want anybody to say this is how I have to do things. Let, let life take you where it's supposed to take you.
Because, I mean, it's devastating the amount of suicides and, and things that we have, because because kids feel trapped. And they feel that there's no other option. There's no love from family or acceptance from anybody else unless they stay in their box. And, and that's devastating.
Yeah. I know Charlie pretty well. And I've gotten to a point where I don't feel like I need to give Charlie any advice. Usually, well, sometimes maybe. But I just like trust Charlie. Like I've seen him make choices and decisions and I just like trust that he'll make the right choice. And, you know, I just wish that we could all do that instead of saying, like, be like so and so. Just like trust people to make the right choice.
Well, you know, now, Ben, that you mention it I do have a few pointers for you. A few little tweaks.
Please tell me how to live my life.
Let me help you.
Yeah but it's like, you know, when I started being more public, like I was in my 30s I already had a very good sense of self. Like I knew who I was and where I was headed. And I, I didn't have to like, what people said to me or about me, like didn't affect me as much as if, as if I were were younger. So it must have been so tough to be just like a kid. Having the whole world look to you. Yeah. And I and I was warned
about that. I mean, like I said, the leaders of the church have been, and leaders, I'm saying those in church headquarters and even apostles, like, I don't want to speak for them. But the messages that I got from them through leaders of the church and things like that were everything love. Like everything was love. It was all kindness. It was all, you know, we love you, it's going to be okay.
Whatever happens type thing. But the greatest thing that I think one of the leaders at church headquarters said to me, they said that my video, they watched soften the hearts of 1000s of
people. And honestly, that is a huge thing that also got me through the feelings of being a failure, and not living how everybody thought I was supposed to was, at least I was able to show people like, hey, please look at this, like, like, please see that this is something that is agonizing for everyone that that's dealing with it and that are trying to navigate their way through it. So if anyone's looking for an example, or a poster child for themselves...
They should look to you. Yeah.
Or... No. For themselves or for someone else, I think it's just better to try to use it as a point of reference and then get to know someone's story.
Yeah.
Get to know who they are, and how you can show up and be there for them. And let them write their own story and, and not try to superimpose mine or yours or Ben's. Yeah. One thing I often tell parents, like, you know, how come I could be like you? I say, you know, instead of giving them my story, ask them to tell you theirs. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Because that's yeah, I think that, that that's the biggest part is just understanding each other and, and loving each
other. It's all about love. Like, I know that that can maybe get a bad rap, the love wins. But it really does like that no matter what, like, that's what you need is we need love and understanding. Definitely. It's interesting, I usually respond to the questions from the closet emails we get. And sometimes people tell us like these long stories. And as I read them, like with a therapist eye, usually they like tell me in the message, like what they know they should do
next. And they're like, well, what should I do? I'm like, you just said...
You know what to do.
Just have the courage to do it. And just today I responded to an email and I was like, there was a lot to unpack in this email. And Charlie and I are not the ones to give you an answer. Because you already gave yourself the answer. Just do the thing you feel prompted to do. And for some reason, we want to like look to someone to like, validate this choice we're gonna make. And you know the validation that matters is what comes from within.
Oh, absolutely. So I had this really, really cool experience. That was kind of life changing in a way. Me and Savannah were trying to find our reception center. And we were with my grandma who's done a lot of reception centers before. And she was looking at all of these different reception centers and was like, hey, like, this one looks really good. And Savs picked one up, and it was called the monarch. And she was like,
this is the one. Like, I want to go see this one and my grandma's like, well go to these other ones, because these other ones look better and, and are better and Savs is like I really feel like we should go to this reception center. So we went to that one first. She made an appointment to go look at it. And I met her there after work. And as soon as I pulled up, my heart literally dropped. Like, I just had the most anxiety. I was
just, I was like in shock. And then I had a really, really cool moment that sort of changed it for me, kind of enlightenment, I guess. So I text Savs and I said, hey, I have something to tell you but I'm going to tell you after. I didn't want anything I had to say to impact her decision on the reception center. So we went. We, and at the end, she was like this is it. Like this is the place. This is where I want to go. And I was like, okay, like I have something to tell you. She was
like, all right. And I was like I actually filmed my Mormon message here.
What?
Yeah, so it was the exact same place. And that's why I had anxiety cuz I was like, you know, this was where it all started. But it had been like this broken down warehouse when I had filmed it but they had redone it into this reception center. So they had painted the brick white. They had cleaned it up. They put all these awesome like exposed beams. So it was
like this gorgeous place. So when I was in the truck when I first pulled up, obviously I had the first panic of like, wow, like this, this was a really difficult part of my life like this was, you know, really, really hard. But then I had this really cool, enlightenment and I feel like just inspiration from God like that pretty much just told me that at that time when I had filmed that message in this broken down, abandoned warehouse that symbolized who I was at that time, like I was broken
down. I was trying to find my way. I was doing the best that I could. Then they redid it into this beautiful, stunning reception center. And there I was, like, almost redone, like, re, like,
Renovated in a way.
Yeah, like renovating my own life. Yeah, like renovating my own life and starting new. And I was able to yeah, almost like mirror what happened to that warehouse like it was just beautifully redone. And so we ended up having our reception there. And I felt like it was just such a cool...
Yeah. Like a full circle moment.
Yeah, it's like a full circle moment where I was able to be like, hey, like, now I can redo my life like this warehouse in a beautiful way. And in a way that I felt that God had led me to do.
That's so empowering.
Yeah.
And it's also kind of cool because like, even the name of the venue of the monarch is like from Caterpillar to a butterfly. And it's just like, your transformation.
I love that. Yeah, that's one of the coolest parts. I just love. So love it.
In your wedding reception was in the same venue as your Mormon message where you said you would never get married.
I know. Isn't that ironic?
Crazy turns life takes.
Really amazing. Beautiful story. Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.
Well, Jessica, thank you so much. This has been an awesome conversation. I've loved every minute, and you're just bright and happy, and it makes me happy.
And we're rooting for you.
We're rooting for you.
Thank you so much for having me. And I'm rooting for both of you.
Thank you for joining us today. If you have enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving us a review. And as always, please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We are not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.
You heard three perspectives, and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you'd like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com and I'll answer it. Until next time.