Welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Charlie bird.
And I'm Ben Schilaty. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter Day Saints.
We are not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, why is gay culture so promiscuous?
Charlie and I are not totally diverse and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both love date palm trees.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, my favorite is a Mexican date palm. And Ben's favorite is a Canary Island date palm.
I mean, they really do look different
They actually do. They look rather different. Um, I was looking to my mission photos A while ago, and I love palm trees. Because where I grew up, I grew up like in the very center of the United States, and like the closest ocean was like 16 hours away driving. And so I went to California on my mission, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, palm trees, and half my mission photos are just like tropical plants that I liked.
Second from the northwest and the ocean, you can actually see it from my, from the roof of my parents house. If there were no trees you could see the ocean, but it's Washington.
But still no palms.
No, there are no palms. Actually, there are a couple but they don't do well. People like put them in their yards. It doesn't make much sense. But they're like the gross ones, not the beautiful ones.
Queen palm.
Yeah
Don't get me started.
But it's good that we're talking about date palms on a episode about
Promiscuity...
No, like, we talk about dating and stuff. Anyway, we would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. So today, we're joined by Derrick Lindell.
Hi, guys.
So Derek, tell us a little bit about yourself. Oh,
I live here in Utah. In bluffdale. Actually, I'm a senior research analysts up there at the U
Sr, huh?
Yeah. I mean, I should just say, you know, analyst cause I sound like I'm...
No be pretentious. We love it.
But yeah, other than that, I'm basically like, usually outdoors playing tennis, running in the mountains, baking, cooking. Like, I don't know if you guys like that type of stuff.
I like to eat things that have been baked or cooked.
Okay. Well, I might have to bring some by. Yeah, other than that, I'm pretty boring. Like, I just like to cook and...
Way to sell yourself. I'm Derrick and I'm boring.
Like my net--Yeah.
So we have Derek today. And he's boring.
Yeah. So basically, during COVID that's all I've been doing is
That's all you really can do.
Yeah. So today, we're talking about the promiscuity that that could exist in the LGBTQ world. I don't know what I'm gonna say about this, because I haven't been involved. So, I don't know.
Well, this is something that I think is really important. On this show, we try really hard to get like a diverse range of topics and perspectives and people. At the same time, today, we are talking, we are like three white gay men talking about male gay culture. So hopefully, it's not too niche, but you can kind of glean something. But this is a
question I get asked a lot. And I feel like within like gay people, it's something that's kind of, at least for me was a little bit shocking when I first was making this making this realization. And at the same time outside in the straight community, I don't know, just like in regular life, there's this kind of like a stereotype that, that gay men are promiscuous and overtly sexual. And so I just wanted to kind of talk about that. And...
it's a tricky conversation. I mean, my viewpoint has changed over the years, like, I was very much like, I'm going to be celibate, I'm going to marry a woman to, I'm going to marry a man. And I want to find a happy in between for both of those. And, you know, people said that you can't do one or the other people said, you know, you're going to go off the deep end, and you're gonna want to sleep around and do X, Y, and Z. And that never sat
well with me. So I feel like I'm a happy medium where I'm like, it's okay to have, you know, express your sexual identity, but also keep your morals. You don't have to do one or the other, contrary to what everyone likes to say.
So you were warned by people that you would be promiscuous?
Oh, yeah. It was like, you're gonna get into drugs, alcohol, like you're gonna sleep with a million people. And I mean, I had like extended family members who said I was going to die of a gay disease. So it was very much two opposite ends that were just very much against each other.
And that isn't what happened to you.
No, no.
So I remember the first time I caught a glimpse of this world, I was, I was not out, I was out to a few friends and most of my family, and I was kind of getting fed up with being in that position. I never really been around like, gay people. And so I was like, trying to make friends and I got invited to this party. And it was by someone who I thought was kind of like trustworthy, and I was like, you know what, I don't know this person. Well, but they
seem okay. And I'm going to go and see what it's like, and maybe I'll find my people because I was looking for my people. And I went alone. And I don't want to talk about it too much, because it really stresses we out to talk about, but I thought it was like, honestly, I maybe I was just naive, but I was going in thinking like, oh, it's gonna be like a nice gathering. And it was like, a raging crazy party. And there
were people throwing up. And I was like, there were multiple, like, aggressive sexual advances that were made on me. And I was just kind of like, frozen. And I was shaking there. And people were offering me drugs. And I'd been there for like, three minutes. And I was like, what, I guess I didn't like go to high school parties or college parties. So I didn't really know what to expect, you know, like, because I kind of like had an idea of what people were like at
school. And so I would know, like, who to associate with and who to not do. But when I stepped into this world, I had no context of who was who and who believed what and who acted what way, you know. And I showed up there and I was devastated, I left immediately, and I just called my sister and I cried. And I was like, This is supposed to be my community. This is supposed to be my group. And they were mocking me and making fun of me and trying to force me to do things that like, are
repulsive to me. And I was really, really upset about it. And that's a reality that exists. And I don't want everyone listening to think that all gay people are like that, because like, I've been to other gay parties that have been like incredible and super uplifting. I've been to like, Come Follow Me, gay edition, you know. And like...
It is fun.
It is fun. And so it's not all like that, but it is there. And it's, and it's something that I never was seeking out. But it's something that like, came to me accidentally,
See I don't get invited to parties. So. Also I'm sorry, that happened to Charlie.
Unfortunately, that happens a lot. When you're newly coming out, trying to understand yourself, and you're just wanting to connect with people. And people, some people do see that as an advantage, and they try and take advantage of people. But conversely, there are people who, you know, will have a gay party, and then they're like, you know, it's gonna be like, just a chill event. And you know, you learn to trust your instincts more, I think with time as it goes on.
And not to say like, one lifestyle is better than the other. But I know for myself, like, I'm not a party rager. Like, I like the good food. And I like, you know, watching a movie or something like fun and productive. But a lot of like the gay culture that is associated with it says that it needs to be a certain way when that's not the case.
So you're saying, Derek, that some people wanting to connect will get into situations where they might compromise maybe their own values to fit in?
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think for myself, like I've given in on some of my morals, and in those situations, and afterwards, I left thinking, what did I do? What was I thinking. I should have immediately, like, left the party or I left that situation, but someone to try, like I had freezing moments where it was like, I want to disconnect, I want to be with someone who I can not have to feel pressured to act or be a certain way,
that's not who I am. But finding those people is sometimes more difficult when you're first coming out.
I've actually done a lot of, like, put a lot of thought and introspection into this idea. Because I for a while it was really hard for me to not hate gay people after this
experience. And the more I thought about it, and like even like looking at history, and like the history of LGBTQ rights, and, and this people, this demographic of people that has been shoved into a box, their entire lives, I started to develop a little bit more empathy by realizing that basically this like, you isolate these people, you make them feel like they have to change themselves and make themselves smaller and conform to something that they do not fit in at all.
And it's like people like gay people always jump off the deep end, but I'm like, yeah, they do. Because there's so much like, pent up emotion and rage and insecurity, that just gets released all the sudden. And then there's so much like thrwarted belonging. I've been using that term a lot lately, but I really like it like...
Oh, the social work program. Oh I'm in the social work program now. But like, you have this search for belonging in your own community, in a religious community or conservative community, there's no belonging there. And then you you want to like, lash out and just jump into the opposite pool because you've been in that one so long.
Yeah, that's something I've thought about too, because a lot of the people who I've seen start looking into the gay world and starting to look for romantic experiences, they often meet people online, or all these things happen in secret. And so they end up in really compromised situations where if it were more talked about more open, they could be in a more typical relationship. These things don't have to hide. And there's that pendulum swing of well, I'm like this and now I'm
the opposite. And I think if we create a culture where people could be more open about who they were and what was happening, then they wouldn't have, they wouldn't end up in these compromising situations.
Yeah, if I had a friend there, like, if I would have been comfortable inviting one of my friends to go to that party with me, I would have had a completely different experience. And I would have felt much more safe and seen and leaving would have been easier. And I wouldn't have had to like, it wouldn't have been like me versus everyone else, right? It would be like us, and hey, let's go, you know?
I've had like experiences. And this isn't to like judge people, or say that they need to be a certain way. But at the same point, you can understand and explore things in a healthy way. Like you can, I think that's a great idea, like having a friend come with you to like your first events, someone who you trust someone who's also going to have your back and be like, hey, I don't feel comfortable, like let's go or you can like, they'll probably like be able to reach out to
other people. And then you can all come together and have a better consensus of this is the type of party that I want to attend.
Yeah, it's not even just parties, though. Like, it's, I feel like in dating culture in general, like, like Ben was saying, a lot of it's like, like, you don't know who's gay, right? Like, if you, I mean, sometimes, I guess you can kind of guess. And I'm actually pretty good.
That just means you're good at stereotyping.
Exactly. Like, like, some people do fit the stereotype. So you kind of like, have an idea. But at the same time, like you don't really know, it's, it's like a status that goes unseen, right? And so like, especially in a dating world, it's it's apps, it's bars, it's clubs, it's things like that. And like society isn't open about it enough yet to where you can just meet
someone organically, right. And so I feel like a lot of times when people decide to date, and they have no experience, and they're probably insecure, and feeling completely overwhelmed. The first idea is like, I'm going to go to a gay bar and try to meet someone, when they've never been to a bar in their life. You know, I mean, they're like, going from Elders Quorum to a gay bar immediately. And that's just like, not healthy. And I don't even think it's
necessary. And I would love to see a cultural shift, where gay people who are deciding to date, they can do it in a more like open, natural, organic environment, rather than putting themselves into compromising situations alone.
That's a good point. Like when I was 29, and considering taking what I call a sabbatical from church. I was like, I'm gonna start dating guys. And I was like, how do you even do that? Like, I didn't even know how to begin dating. And I thought there was a gay bar in Tucson like, I guess I go to the gay bar. I didn't ever end up going. But you know, that's, I thought that's what I had to do.
It's fine if someone wants to go to a gay bar, but like, I don't. So...
The music is too loud. I assume.
Oh I love loud music, though.
Loud music is the worst.
So I actually had like an interesting experience when I was first coming out. I didn't really have a place and like you said, it wasn't really a safe. I lived up in Logan, like, when I was first realizing like my true sexuality. I was going to Utah State and I met you know, some people who were introducing me to the gay culture. And they brought me down to Salt Lake to go to the gay clubs. And it was incredible, but at the same point, terrifying. And also I
was violated in other ways. But it was still just like this freeing slash terrifying moment that I didn't really understand what was what everything that was happening. And so after that, like I was like, I don't know if I really like this. And you know, I would go with my friends every now and then if they wanted to go dancing, and I was like, oh, we can go this. But everyone say, like, you need to drink, you need to do this. And I was like, No, like, that's, I'm not I don't want to
do that. And there was always that pressure to fit in. But the thing is, is when you're exploring, it's best to like, be with people that you can trust. I keep reiterating that. It's, it's so hard, though to just do it and go at it alone.
Derrick how did you get to a place where you were able to have that kind of self confidence to say, you know, you're pressuring me to do this, but I don't want to,
You know, people said that I needed to do this. And I'm already a strong headed personality. And I just said, no, like, there were a lot of times where I just had to stick up for my ground and say, no, that's not something that I want to do. And there was constant pressure, like from people I dated to groups that we were with where I was like, no, it's great. Like, just go ahead and do it. And I'm not saying I was perfect all the time. But again, it was you need to do this in
order to be happy. And I decided for myself, my morals, like whether or not I like stayed in the church, I needed to base my morals off of what I knew to be right. And to me, that was something that I knew wasn't right for myself. Easier said than done. Like, again, not preaching from a perfection
stand over here. But like, I wish that when I was coming out, the people said that you can keep your morals and you know, I at this point in my life, I see people who are coming out and they have placed their entire morals with either religion and or family values. And once they're either no longer accepted with their family or no longer accepted at their church, they throw everything out. It's like a rubber band that's been pulled all the way to the right.
And then as soon as they pull out that one pin, it just ricochets all the way to the left. So finding like your morals within yourself, not necessarily because of x, y, and z but because this is somethin that feels good t
So there's a real danger in basing your values on some external, something external. And what you're saying is find your own internal values and make sure you're living those.
Yeah, and I'm not saying like religion or family values are bad, or that that's not a good place to put them in. But morals originated far for the church than before, like family members like it. There's a reason why we're to this moment today, when we can be like, Oh, my morals is this because I see it as a benefit or I see it as I don't have to worry about, you know, drunk driving. I don't have to worry about getting high and not being able to, like take myself home
or take care of me. So there's like some real, real life lessons from just understanding your own morals and what's in the best situation for yourself?
Well, I also think it's important to realize that there's not a point of no return.
Yeah.
Like, a lot of times, we'll have a friend who starts dating, and they're like, well, I'm already sinning. So I might as well do everything. And I'm like, why? Why is making a choice? Why does that equate to a lot of damaging decisions that you don't actually want, just because other people expect you to be doing that. And I think we're getting to a better place
where that doesn't happen. But again, a lot of it's like societal pressure, I really believe and if, and if we could have people we trust, and if things were more open, and like normalized, then there wouldn't be like this petri dish of like shame filled people trying to find community and just turning into like this tornado abyss of just bad decisions, you know, and I really think that a lot of like, like sin, or bad decisions, like to use those
terms, I don't love them. But for lack of better terms, it stems from an unmet need, right, and there's so many people who act out or lash out or make kind of wild decisions, because they have needs that are not being met. And in the case of gay culture, a lot of its emotional, and belonging needs that were never met. And then it is, it's like a rubber band, it's like a
breaking point. And then it kind of like festers in this culture, because then everyone gets thrown out to the sides of society and is in this and, and that's the expectation, right? It's almost the expectation that whoever ends up gay, right? That's what happens. And I've even had people say to me, like, to my face, oh, you just wait, and a couple years, you'll be corrupted, just like I was. And I'm like, why?
So I heard that.
Yeah. So many times, it's like, and I think part of it stems from like, almost a guilt that they were corrupted and couldn't get out of it. Does that make sense? And, and it's, sometimes it's like, really not their fault. It's just because like, it's so tragic and horrible. And it's like, being acted upon so much that you're stuck there.
I think there's this very natural human response of, you know, trying to seek connection and trying to create relationships. And, and sometimes we might do things that are in line with our values to try and find those connections.
And, you know, I have friends who've definitely chosen a different path than me. And then they found happiness in that. And to them, I wish them the best, you know, I'm not, I'm not here to judge or say what people should do. But again, like, I agree with you guys, that petri dish of how like, we're forced, and we've been
forced to hide for years. And then when you release all of it at the same point, like there's, you feel, I feel like you're just feeling like things for the first time, you know, people compared to like, being a teenager when you're dating or, and you're just really trying to understand like your brain, like, in my mind, I see it as your brain is actually like, finally able to access things that it's like, repressed for years. Yeah. And so you're not able to maybe make all the best
decisions right then. But you're still just so free at that point.
I'm thinking about the way I grew up in the church. And every time like virtue or purity or marriage or or sex was talked about. It was like a sacred thing, right? That they raised us, they instilled in us this idea that the expression of sexuality is one of the most beautiful godlike sacred things, and that we need to hold on to that and treat it well. At the same time, the messaging I received about gay sex and gay relationships was that it was devilish and sick and abhorrent
and wrong and immoral. And so in a sense, like, is it any wonder that gay people grow up and when they start expressing their sexuality, they're treating it the same way that they've been taught to treat it, which is devilish and abhorrent and sick and wrong and like, how can we really expect someone to hold that pure and sacred when we've instilled them with this idea that, that it's disgusting. Right? And how much better off?
Would we be if, if the way we educated our children and talked about this was, was more based on like, personal values and morals? And just like? I don't know, do you know what I'm saying?
Yeah, and I know, I know, a lot of people who know they want to follow the same guidance as about, they want to wait till they're till they're married to have sex and they want to have, you know, I don't know, like, for the strength of youth pamphlet guidelines, you know, when they're dating, right, which sounds no fun at all. And, you know, people who just want to, you know, have the kind of relationship that, you know, they grew up wanting to have, but just with a partner of the same sex.
I was talking to a friend once, and he said, it was so cute, he was like, I really think the next level of gay rights is, like gay couples moving to the suburbs and raising kids. And basically, what he was saying is, I hope that one day, it just becomes normal enough to where you can just live a normal life, and you're not pushed into this corner of, of shame-filled lashing out and depression. And then we can kind of create a new
culture. And, yeah, that's just so much more healthy and beautiful in, in my mind.
So I'll be honest, like, for me, I've, again, haven't been perfect, but I can say that intimacy and sex with someone that you truly love and care about, or when you're like, in a committed relationship is for me, far superior than anything else. Like you're able to just experience things about life that you didn't realize, or that you're just expressing your feelings from within. So similar
to what the Church teaches. And it is something that is valuable to oneself, and honestly shouldn't be given away, in my opinion, just to anyone. This is truly like being in your most vulnerable state, and finding a way where you can express that in a healthy manner, like makes it that much better.
Yeah, as we're talking, I just kind of want to reiterate this idea that, that you can change your course you can change your mind. And if you're making choices or falling into situations that that you don't like, like, you can change that. And it's not like, you're damaged, or it's over, or there's something wrong with you, or you're a bad person, like, There's always hope, and you have the ability to move as
you wish. And there are people who love you and support you in whatever decisions you'll make.
Yeah.
And we're not here to prescribe values to anyone...
No.
Not at all.
But whatever your values are, that the best way to have a happy life is to live according to those values, whatever they are.
Agreed.
So I was really shocked that the moment I came out, and I came out in a very, like church-centric way with the Deseret News, right. But as soon as that happened, I received a lot of messages, most of them like good and supportive, but a lot of them were very, like people giving me like indecent proposals and sending me unwanted sexual and graphic content. And I was shocked and it like really hurt my feelings. I don't know how else to say other than like, I was really
hurt by it. And it was gross. And like, I didn't want it.
Yeah, no, like, I came out on YouTube, like, officially came out on YouTube. And I would get these unsolicited, you know, genitalia, pictures, or whatnot. And it was so unappealing, not because it's not, you know, yes, we are gay, or however you identify, but that isn't what being you know, gay is about. It's not about this picture, or you know, all this.
Well, it's not about sex. It's I say that all the time. It's so much more than sex.
Exactly.
Right. And it just like, that's not appropriate.
No, unsolicited anything is inappropriate.
It's just inappropriate. And I was really shocked by that. It got to the point where I almost got self conscious. I was like, What am I putting out into the world that makes people think this is okay. And I thought it was like, a me problem. And I was like, what about my energy or personality makes people think that this is what I want. And it was really hard to go through that. And I almost don't want to say this because it's ignorance is bliss.
And it's so much, you know, I don't want to make people feel like the minute they come out, they're gonna get attacked, but it's a reality that exists. And I think it's good to be prepared for that.
Yeah.
Well, Charlie, you're a young hot gay that takes great Instagram pictures.
Thank you Ben.
When I came out on my blog when I was 30, that dozens of people read I received no dick pics, and no solicitation. You know, sometimes I'll get messages from people from like, certain gay groups who send me a picture like in their underwear. It has happened a couple of times, and they're like, oh, sorry, that wasn't for you. Like, alright...
Subtle.
But you know, like that kind of stuff doesn't really happen to me. But I'm also like, like, you know, that line from Alladin where Jasmine's like I'm not a prize to be won. I think people like see you as like this celebrity who is hot and young. And you know, like you're a prize to people. I'm no prize.
Everyone's a prize band. So don't debase yourself.
Well, I think a lot of it stems from the dichotomous culture, right? As soon as I said I was gay, everyone assumed that I was promiscuous immediately. And as soon as I wrote my book for Deseret book, everyone assumed that I was struggling with same sex attraction, right? And I was like, Can we please get over these narratives because neither of them are true, right? Like, I'm very confident in who I am. And I'm also not promiscuous.
So you don't want dick pics. And you also don't want pity.
I don't want dick pics or pity. But I do want to be pitied for all the dick pics that I've had to see. Oh my gosh. So horrible.
And I'm just gonna say something like, even though we here don't appreciate that type of stuff to the people who do, or who participate in that other spectrum. You know, again, all the love to them. Like that's, again, there's different perspectives of how this comes about. But I know for myself, like, if an unsolicited picture comes through, it isn't going to like make me happy.
Right. And I think like it comes down to consent, right? That's the missing link like that there should be consent. And and sometimes in this realm there is not and its it's unacceptable. And, and I hope that no one else has to face that. But like I said, the reality is that many people do. And so it's it's good to be prepared and be open and talk about that with people you trust. Additionally, I see this common theme where, and I've even felt it in myself. Right?
Like for so long, you feel so broken, and terrible, and unlovable and gross. And then you find someone who's willing to give you attention and like loves this part of you that you hate the very most. And it's tempting to like mistake, basic human decency, for some great noble act. And then you just get into a situation that you give way too much of yourself,
because you're so insecure. And because I mean, we it's the same thing, we were just talking about it, it's like looking for belonging and wanting to be like, loved and held. And if you don't have existing belonging it is so I wish I had better words to say but like tempting to fall into that and bend your morality and your your values around somebody else.
When you combine like those deep feelings of like shame and wanting to belong with the gay adolescence, and not having those opportunities to experience relationships, as an adolescent with like adult supervision, and the restrictions that teens have. And you know, you're it's just, it's a recipe for getting into situations that you might regret later.
Yeah, and this isn't just with gay culture. I mean, to an extent, it seems like we live we live in a world that's like LDS culture versus gay culture. But like, honestly, I have straight friends. And like friend, like co-workers, when I was working in New York, and like, their value set is very different from mine. And they're okay with a lot of different things in it. And so like, there is a lot of overlap just between like, not LDS culture, and what
we see as gay culture. But I think the, the extra ingredient is this, the shame and this adolescence in this not understanding a lot that and I think that's the most toxic part.
And the are, like, you can be taken advantage of very easily in those vulnerable states. And it's important to again, recognize what's what's good to yourself, what will make you be happy in the end? Like, is this going to be a moment where you're going to look back and be like, I am okay, with everything that just happened? Or I am happy with everything that just happened? Or is this going to be a moment where you're going to look back and have regrets? And it's okay to
have regrets. I have plenty of regrets. But at the same point, I look back at those moments. And I'm like, okay, I learned from that I learned that my value or my morals, or whatever it may be from that time, doesn't determine how I feel about myself at this present.
Well in Isn't that like the definition of that's textbook definition of repentance? Yeah, like we have agency, we make choices. And because of the grace of God, we don't have to pay that. But we can learn from it. And, you know, if you cross a line that's too far for you, and you don't like the result, you don't have to do it again. It's not like your boundary is automatically bigger, because you had an
outlier moment. Right, you can come back within the normal bell curve and find a place where you're, like, steady and stable.
And I've again, I've done many, I've had many instances where I have not been perfect. But again, like there's, I like how I brought up the point of consent is something that's super important that I think that freshly coming out or the gay community in general needs to be very aware of and better at, and also not pressuring people to do things that they're uncomfortable with. Because I've been in many situations where I have been pressured to do a number of things that I may not be
comfortable with. And pressuring people to do things that they're not comfortable with isn't okay either. And it's something that should be talked about more. You know, we, I think it's great, you know, gay rights and everything that, you know, equality and that sort of thing. But also in that equality, we need to be respectful because if you heard of, like your female coworker or a female friend who had similar circumstances happened to her, I would be immediately like...
I'd be enraged.
Yeah, like...
Yeah.
Where's this guy like, or girl, like, who is like what's happening, but in gay culture, it's become the norm. And that's something that just shouldn't be, right.
So I remember one time when I went to gay club with some people, and I was kind of like, I didn't really know what to expect. I didn't really feel comfortable there. But I was like, you know, I'm really good dancer. And I like going to like, dance parties. And I want these people to be my friends. So I'm just gonna go. And I went, and I was kind of like, on the edge. And I was like, I don't know how I feel about this. But this stranger came up and like, aggressively touched
me inappropriately. And I was really, really offended and taken aback shocked. And, and I kind of like, pushed him off of me. And he laughed and walked away. And I was, I was beside myself, I was so upset. And these people that I was with were like, haha, and I was like, no, like, are you kidding me? Did you not just see what happened? And they're like, oh, it just means you're hot. Like you should, you should feel grateful for this, like,
everyone wants you. And I was like, oh, my gosh, like, this is horrible. And I, like had a terrible night. And I just like, went down. And I did, I didn't drive. So like, they stayed, I just went and sat in this booth. And I was so upset. And that's, that's a story that happened to me. Like, I don't really know
what my takeaway is there. Other than that, like, if you have the ability go places with people you trust, if you feel uncomfortable, like, be with someone who understands you, and where you come from, and your your background and your values. Because, again, like it's not like everyone is a predator. But in in certain environments, there are predatorial people and aggressive people, and it can be dangerous.
Yeah. And I know for myself, like, there was a situation where I was going on a date with this guy, and, you know, for on the couch, and I don't want to get into too much detail. But basically, he's he said, Let's do this. I said no. And even though I said no,
multiple times, he said yes. And if you're hearing this, and you've had either a similar situation, or, you know, you're a victim of sexual assault, like just know that you're not alone, that you are loved, reach out, you know, reach out and just know that that does not determine your your worth, or make you any less valuable or less worthy of love. You know, after that, I felt so betrayed, like, I was like, I have been working hard on like, just maintain the church's standards.
And I was just, I remember like, driving home crying, and just wishing that, you know, I could just be straight and I could be anything other than in this situation. And you know, I, there are those people out there who will, you know, unfortunately, push those boundaries and try and take advantage of you. And at the same point, like, there are those people out there, but there are, I would say more so people who are there to support
and to love you. And those people when you find like, not like an aura or a light about them, but you can feel like goodness from them. Those are the people that you know, should I would for my recommendation is like, not recommendation but for myself, like I try and hang out with, like people who are not going to try and pressure into doing something or belittle like my beliefs or what I want to do
with my life. So again, if you if you have similar circumstances, I hated the term in church, like when they brought up your piece of chewed gum. And I don't know if that's been brought up, but you are not a piece of chewed gum, you are still a beautiful worthy human being. And I may not know you, but I love you. And I am giving you a virtual hug wherever you are. And just know that you are not alone.
Derek, thank you for sharing that. I know that's a deeply personal experience. I'm sorry, that happened.
Thanks.
My experience has just been so different. Like I actually already told the story on a recent episode, but I just want to share it again for context. I've actually only been on one date with a guy. It was I think it was 30. And it was actually Valentine's Day. And this guy invited me to dinner and I said I would go but I wasn't looking for a relationship but if he wanted to buy me food fine. I was such a trick I guess.
You really are Ben.
I'm not looking for a relationship but if he wants to buy me dinner so so he took me dinner. Very delicious pizza place in Phoenix, I highly recommend. And then as we were
So the takeaway is that Ben's hard to get. like driving, he asked if he could hold my hand, which was very polite of him. And I said, no, thank you. And then he took me this like view area like t at overlooks the city. So we're ike standing there, like ta e in this scene of like the cit at night. He's like, this is eally lovely. The only thing hat would make it more lovely i if I could put my hand aroun you or put my arm around you. A d I was like, No, thank you.
And then nothing happened. I t tally broke his heart I'm sure.
Ben is hot and he knows it.
No, no, no, no one invites me to parties or anything. But I think like, the takeaway I'm getting with this story is, you know, I knew going into this what I wanted out of it. I wanted dinner. No, I, this guy who I thought was cool, wanted to take me out. And I was interested in that. But I wasn't interested in anything physical. And so when those opportunities presented themselves, I just went with what I'd already decided.
Yeah, well, I think there needs to be some way to like, balance the pH of gay culture, right? Because on the one hand, on the religious side, it's it's incredibly destructive because it's, I mean, I don't know if I even have to explain that, right? Like, the word is basic. Now we need to make it basic. No, I'm saying like, neutral. Yeah, it needs to be more neutral. Because on the religious end of the spectrum,
it's it's terrible. Like, there's depression and self loathing and secrets and hatred. And then people just like, pendulum swing on the opposite side of that, and are into like, casual sex and drugs. And it's just like, the counterculture, it's swinging so far. And it
would be so awesome. My dream is that we can like get a culture where like, those kind of like, come in words, and it can be a little bit, I keep using the word normal, but just like, in the middle to where it doesn't have to be so dramatic, because the drama is so like, traumatic.
Yeah.
Like these dramatic sides of the spectrum of this spectrum is it's really hard to be like, flip flopping from one to the other. And that's what I've seen so many people do.
Yeah, finding a way where people can truly be comfortable, and not have to jump.
Right.
Or not have to sprint or do a catapult to the one end of the spectrum to the other.
Yeah, and I think that's where allyship becomes so essential, because allies, people, families have the ability to change the existing culture to where we don't have to jump. And we don't have to pendulum swing, and the, I'm gonna sound like a broken record. But I hope that we can internalize this that like, being open and treating this as like a normal thing will fix so many problems. And then it won't be like, hmm, should I stay in
the church and be suicidal? Or should I leave the church and completely lose all of my relationships and moral values, like, we don't have, like that as a false dichotomy. We do not have to be making that decision, and how I yearn for a world where that dichotomy never exists. It doesn't exist, because it doesn't need to.
No. And I think that's exactly right. Like if we can let our loved ones be open and honest about the realities of their lives with us, then they're going to be a lot safer.
And just kind of looking back on everything we said, I'm thinking about, like my takeaways and themes. And I think it's just that like, there is an existing gay culture that was born out of grief and hurt. And it's complex and tricky, and can be really dangerous. And while it's sad, and often offensive to me, I have to recognize that these people are hurt and hurt people hurt people. And a lot of this is stemming from pain, and unmet
needs. At the same time, I am taking away that we can be the change we want to see in the world. And that we don't have to add to that or feel pressured to subscribe to that existing culture if we don't feel like it fits our own views and morals. And the way to do that is to build a solid core support system, and solidify your moral compass before you even start stepping into this world.
Yeah, and I've really appreciated that the friends of mine who are have different values than I do, and who are living lives different a life different than I would choose for myself, who still include me in their decisions, let me know what's going on. Because I want to be included in their life.
And, you know, if they're sleeping with someone on the first date, and going on a date with someone else and sleeping with them, you know, I would rather have them trust me enough to share those experiences with me than to feel like they couldn't.
Yeah, I would say I echo with everything that you guys have said it's, it's hard. It is like, I mean, it's a tricky conversation to have because you you love people on both sides, like there is no one way to handle life. Like there are many paths. And so whatever like you choose, I agree with you, Charlie, like everything that you just said, good way of putting it and happiness can come from multiple paths. That's
something I've learned. And wherever you're at whatever you decide to do with your life or in the sexual way or non sexual way, your worth is not determined on that. You are a beautiful being and you are loved. Like that's that would be my, my takeaway is no matter what you are loved.
Well Derek, thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your thoughts and for being so open and vulnerable. That's really a gift.
Of course, my pleasure. And if anyone needs help, like reach out to people that you know, and you can trust and it's gonna be okay.
Awesome. Thank you.
Thank you for joining us today. If you have enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving a review. And as always, please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We are not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.
You heard three perspectives and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time.