Welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Ben Schilaty
And I'm Charlie Bird. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter Day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus, but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, how can I help?
Ben and I are not terribly diverse, and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both get quite a few messages on social media.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, I respond to my messages, and Charlie doesn't.
I'm really, really, really bad at responding to messages.
Well, I mean, you get a lot more messages than I do. But I just respond to them all. So
Yeah, I'm actually have Ben, I gave him like the login to my Instagram, and he like combs through and helps me answer messages a lot.
So if you get a generic message from Charlie, it's probably like, thank you so much. I appreciate you reading my book, it was probably me.
I'm that person who has like, two to 300 notifications, and it just like stresses me out. So I just don't do anything about it and it just keeps like racking up.
But one thing my dad taught me, and he's just like, showing us that I was life is that people like deserve time and acknowledgement. So I just feel like it's really important. Just like acknowledge that I saw somebody.
Wow, Dan drag me.
Remember, when when Princess Diana died, you probably don't remember because you're too young. I was also very young. But there were like all these specials about her and they interviewed this one girl who would like written her letter. And then Princess Diana wrote back. And then she wrote back to Princess Diana and Princess Diana wrote back and she said and we were pen pals until the day she died.
For the record Ben just told me that I don't care about people and then compare me to Princess Diana. Sounds pretty good.
Princess Diana responded to her messages.
Dang. Okay, you're Princess Diana.
I'm Princess Diana.
Anyway, we we like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives on this podcast. So today, we're joined by Rachel Bloxom.
Hi, I'm Rachel. I'm a special education teacher in Texas. I am Charlie's best friend and cousin. And I'm actually the person that he came out to for the first time.
Fantastic. And you guys were also in the MTC together, right?
We were in the MTC together, yes.
We were in the same district. We sat right next to each other the whole time.
That sounds like so much fun. And also terrible for everyone else.
Yeah, that's exactly what it was.
It was fun for us. But I don't know if we were totally prepared.
Actually, one guy in our MTC district had his mom send him earplugs because we talked so much.
Yeah, when you said Rachel was gonna be on the podcast, I'm like, you're just gonna talk and joke the whole time. And I just sit here politely.
Hopefully.
We'll see how it goes.
We'll see how it goes.
So the reason we're doing this episode today, how can I help is because after Episode 37, we were just inundated with messages. After our episode, is there a place for me in the church? And I responded to them because that's what I do. We got we got a ton of emails. And people asked, you know, how can I help? What can I do? And you know, I just said, I just said a lot like, I don't know what you should do, but God knows so pray and seek revelation, and you'll
know what to do. I actually feel like that's very good advice. But today, we'll talk about some
some more specific things. And as I was thinking about this episode, earlier today, I was thinking about, and I mentioned this in a recent episode, but Doctrine and Covenants 123, which is a letter that Joseph Smith wrote, while he was in Liberty Jail, to the saints, in that he talks about how how we should waste and wear out our lives brings, like, all the hidden things wherein we know them and, and he talks about how a very large ship is turned by a
very small helm. And I just like the idea that, you know, we might think that we're small and insignificant, but we all can do a lot, even, you know, wasting when our lives to do the things that we feel called to do. And that last verse in that section says that we should cheerfully do do all things that lie in our power. And then when we do that God's hand is revealed to us or
his arm is revealed to us. And I just love that, you know, as as we do the things as we cheerfully do the things that we feel called to do. That's when we're gonna see God's hand and his arm in our life. But whatever you feel called to do do that. So Rachel, what are some things that you've done in the LGBTQ space, besides being Charlie's best friend and cousin?
You know, I actually thought about this quite a bit lately, not not just, you know, within this community, but just in advocacy work in general. And the thought that keeps coming back to my mind is a pretty well-known concept in the church, which is just lift where you stand. And I think about how that applies to this. And for me, it's mostly when the opportunity presents itself is to be able to take advantage of
the opportunity. So you know, I can't advocate like you guys can because I don't have the credentials to do so. But when someone does say something, I can add something to that conversation that might make them think of things differently. And so if I hear someone say something that's offensive, I can add a comment or I can maybe ask a question that can change their perspective a little bit or at least make them feel a little bit embarrassed that they're still so entrenched in that
mindset of like that. So...
Your ally ship was making people look stupid,
Absolutely. I'm very productive. But not just you know, you don't have to make a change everywhere. You have to make a change your your what's the word?
Your sphere of influence.
Yeah, your sphere of influence, right, like mine is, is advocating within my family within my extended family within my group of friends, that's like, the most important thing I can do is to look at someone I know...
Well, and I feel like in order to be able to do that some of the first steps are education and exposure. Because if you don't have anything to add to a conversation about LGBTQ rights, or advocacy or any of this, then you're not really going to be able to. So like a good first step is to find resources and consume those resources that are going to allow you to like build proximity with people who are different.
Yeah, definitely. And I think what the people who like helped that have, like, done really good things for me. Right, as I was starting to come out publicly, I found out about this group, All Arizona, which is an LGBTQ support organization in Arizona, that the Cooks started it and the Cooks have have two gay sons. I like to say that they were doubly blessed. And one of their sons is like wanting to get to know more gay people. Well, he had gay
friends. And they like wanted to hangout, I started hanging out at the Cook's house. And they thought, well, maybe we could make this more of an official thing, they started inviting other people. And it became like this really big thing. And then they they hold a yearly conference. And the first like LGBTQ thing that I went to was their yearly conference in Mesa. And, you know, to start out with, you know, our son, and his friends, like, want to hang out. So let's create the space for
that. It blossomed into this thing that was like such a blessing to me in my life, and I know a blessing to other people in their lives. They just saw a need and acted on it.
Yeah, Rachel, when I think about the way you helped me, when I came out to you, I had completely avoided gay people at all costs, because I was trying to, like, run away from it, right. But you hadn't like you had gay friends in high school. And you were the president of the Gay Straight Alliance in Texas. And just like you, you had that proximity in
those associations. So when I came out to you, I was like, I didn't really know what to expect, but you were like, so graceful in the way you carry that because you had past experience, and, and had kind of like been in those spaces before. And that allowed me to grow so much quicker than I otherwise would have been able to.
And I think one other important thing is, is on my end of things, it's so important to listen to someone who's experienced, it's so easy to make assumptions from my straight perspective. Now that you know, I've had so much experience discussing things, it's like, it's really important to understand from your experience, just like if, as a feminist, you know, if you want to hear more about feminism, you
need to go to a woman. If you want to hear more, like Black Lives Matter, and how that affects people, you need to talk to people of color, you can't,
just makes assumptions. And like, the most important thing you can do is educate yourself, educate yourself, by knowing a real person, from the LGBTQ community, just in the same way that you know, especially I think, as members of the church, Jesus Christ, we're always so upset by hearing all these stereotypes that come with and we're always like, just ask me, but we don't bring that over
into this community as well. And like, get to know a real person get to know a real gay person and ask them their experience. Because it's not the experience that you imagined they're having.
That's a really good point. And I get emails a lot where someone say, like, I have a gay son, and you know, like, what, like, what is he going through? And? And I tell them, like, I don't know, but he does, you should ask him. I think there's there's this, there's this trepidation that people have about like, asking really deep and probing questions about someone's sexual orientation, or gender identity, which I which I
think is fair. And so what I tell people who are like, I want to ask questions, I don't know how I say, just ask for their consent. Say, Hey, you know, I know this thing about you, you shared this part of you with me, and I have some questions. Is it okay? If I ask it? And then when you ask for their consent to ask questions, then they'll say, yeah, of course, most people are going to say, Yes, please ask me
your questions. And, and for the most part, like, I don't care if someone asks me like a stupid or offensive question, because then I can correct that information. So I always tell people, if you're talking to someone who's gracious and kind, like, they're not gonna care if you say something wrong, because you're, you're presenting yourself as a learner. So.
Yeah, and I feel like, especially in this base, asking about someone's orientation is not the same as asking about their sex life. A lot of times, like, there's so much more to orientation than sex. And like, I mean, I have never had sex, but I know a lot about how my orientation influences like, how I fit in the world and how I interact with others. So it's not like you're asking questions about like, inappropriate things. It's just like, Who are you? And how is your life experience? You know?
That's something that me and Charlie talk about a lot is just like the over sexualization of sexuality, in the sense that like, I mean, that was like one of the very first things I told Charlie, when it came out to me is like, this doesn't define you. And so it's like, just take that same rule of thumb what I asked a straight person this, and if you wouldn't ask a straight person about their sex life, don't ask a gay person on
their sex life. But you can still ask a lot of personal intimate questions about their relationships, about their orientation without getting into anything that you wouldn't with a straight person,
Rachel do remember some of the questions that you initially asked her Charlie, or throughout the years like some of the important questions you asked?
Let me think.
I feel like almost it was backwards. I remember like I came out to Rachel and then a couple weeks later, I came out to her that I had a crush and I was like, so worried that I had a crush and I mentioned this on a previous episode, and she was just like, okay, yeah, like you're gay. Of course, you have a crush on a boy. And I was like, How do you know? This? I didn't even know. You know? So I feel like it's like a student teacher, I am student Rachel's teacher.
Well, I would say some important questions like that you could ask her like, you know, what is this been like for you? How have these feelings affected your life? How have they affected the lives of your of your family?
You know, you know what one thing she did ask me Is she said, What do you need from me? And, and we like kind of had this way of communicating where like, I need different things at different times. Right. So her allyship has looked different at different periods of my life. And what I've been able to handle, and what I've needed help with, is kind of like
constantly evolving. And so in order to, like, help and be an ally, you have to realize that everybody's on a different spot in their journey, basically, always and it's always shifting, it's not like, like the way I view my orientation right now, is not the way I viewed it a year ago or the year before, like, we're always getting new information and making
adjustments. So if you can be flexible, and your allyship and allow that flexibility to go over to multiple people, like be okay that people are in different spaces and like, realize that everyone's experience is valid and based on their own history, and communicate about the role that they would like you to play in their lives.
Definitely. When I think of like good allies, I think of my current Stake President, his name is Brian Hopkins. And he's amazing. He teaches at BYU. When he called me to be on the High Council over a year ago, he said, Ben, we're not calling you to be the gay high councilor. But you can talk about being gay as much or as little as you want. And he said, if anyone has any problem with that, you talk to me and I will deal with it.
And so I think about the amazing way he was an ally, because he said, you can be open, and that is okay. And then he said, and if anyone has problems with that, I will take care of it. So I felt both validated and protected. And I think that church leaders can do a lot to be allies by saying, if you if you want to talk about the realities of your life, here, that is okay. And if that causes any problems, I will deal with those problems for you.
Within the Church of Jesus Christ, we kind of are in a system where in order for a gay person's voice to be heard, a straight person has to allow it or make that space. I was reading in Second Nephi last week, and it was talking about how like, the Jews were to make space for the Gentiles. And it's kind of like the same concept to me, like straight people or
leaders. In order for like an LGBTQ voice or gay or trans voice to be heard or appreciated or understood, you kind of have to make room for us to like, be brought out of the darkness and into light. That's another way to help. That's where allyship really becomes incredibly important within this organization.
Yeah, and just like this is a very different situation. But like, women who were seeking for suffrage at the in the 19th and 20th century, like they were doing a lot and being and really asking for what they wanted but it took men to actually vote for them to have the right to vote.
Right.
Like women wouldn't have the vote. If they didn't convince them and they needed the right to vote,
Ben you and I were kind of brainstorming after we were
You are very good at creating beautiful things by the getting these messages and talking about a little bit more like some like concrete things that we feel like could happen. And we even made like I ended up making like little graphics that shared some ideas. way.
Thank you. One of the main themes, in those is that there needs to be like more connections, right? I feel like, and again, I've mentioned this too, I think on the last episode that within Utah, there's like, really cool connections and like you come out, and like someone knows, someone knows someone and like all of a sudden, like this invisible safety net starts forming underneath you. But I don't really feel that or see that like nationwide or church wide. And so I think like,
allies need to be visible. And gay people need to be visible, and so that we can make those connections and create a system and because like, I feel like right now it's just like your church and like anything said or it's on it's still taboo, like it's still taboo. But no matter how taboo it is, there are allies, and there are LGBTQ people at church all the time, like in your ward, there are a
lot, right. So if we can be a little bit more visible, then it's easier to find those connections and build the support that is needed and is lacking currently.
Yeah. And Rachel, how do people know that you're an ally?
Because I talk about it a lot. But I know me and Charlie talked about that. We talked about that too, just in like the way that he knew that there were certain people he had come out to us because they had discreetly but but also, you know, they've just it's been a topic of discussion they brought up so that he knew that it would be safe whenever he did come
out. So things like posting something, you know, just talking about it talking about the people that are in your life who are in the LGBTQ community, talking about their experiences. I know that like I've had friends who have come out later and I've sent a message and they're in the church obviously. And that's why I've sent them like Charlie's information to the podcast information and just making like making resources available to people who don't know they're out there. It's really important.
Definitely. There, there are a couple people at BYU, a couple students who when I walk around campus, I see them wearing these masks that say I'll walk with you, and they have rainbows on them. And I love that I've actually been trying to buy one, but it's been sold out for over a month. But whenever I see these people, the students walking across campus, I always say I love your mask. Because I do, I think it's just such a nice way to say like, I'm gonna walk with you, like, I'm
gonna be here with you. I think just having like, some visible way to say like, like, I'm an ally, I'm here, if you like. I wear a rainbow ring. And on my backpack, I have a, a bee pin that's got rainbow on it, cuz it's like Utah. And, you know, you know.
It's funny, when I before Charlie came out to a lot of people, I always told him if he needed me to, I would come out fakely as a lesbian, so that whenever he came out, the waves wouldn't be so like torrential. And that's probably like not like, you know, it's not good to do, but he would have never asked me to do that. But just, you know, making that--
Well, and I think the sentiment behind that that was powerful to me was like, she's not embarrassed to be lesbian, because being lesbian isn't bad. It's like an awesome, cool thing. And like, why would you be embarrassed to be yourself? Right? And so it's not like she was actually going to do that. But she was like, look like, you can do this. I don't know.
I'm not embarrassed to be gay and neither should you. Because it's not a bad thin . So--
And Ben what you were saying with this mask, that's almost that's like coming out as an ally. And one of the reasons you have to come out when you're gay is because it's not like something that is always like, readable. And like, for me, people were like, trying to set me up on dates and expecting me to be straight, like forever, like most of my life, because nobody knew I was gay, because I
hadn't said it yet. And so the way they were treating me was based on like, a lack of information that was yet to be brought to light. So I came out, and then people were able to, like, adjust the way I fit in their life based on like, how they interacted with me, right? The powerful thing about coming out as an ally is, then here I am, like, either out or not out, looking for support and wondering who I can be safe with. And it's the same thing
that's unreadable. Like you don't know people's internal feelings about something, when you met them unless you have that conversation. So that's why like visible reminders, like a ring or a pin, that give a hint or a mask, they give a hint that you are safe. You are someone who is seeking to understand more and build a safe space. That's really, really powerful.
Right. Right. You know, as you've been talking to us about, like, really powerful allies that I know who have like, done a lot of good, you know, as they as they come out, and they get to know people, you know, this education, getting to know people's stories, they notice gaps, and then they do what they can to fill in those gaps. Like, like Susie Augustine and her husband, whose name has escaped me, Brother Augustine.
Paul.
Paul, that's it. You know, they love the game Settlers. So they started Settlers Sunday, and they were just invited a bunch of LGBTQ folks over to play Settlers every Sunday. I don't know if it was every Sunday.
Yeah, like pre COVID. That was huge. And a lot of people were going and finding community.
And it was it was really beautiful.
And that's the same thing you did with your queer Book of Mormon, you just like found something that like minded people would like to do and then created like an LGBTQ sort of like offshoot or group and it was organic, right. And so one thing that we've talked about and that I've thought about a lot is the idea of making like a Come Follow Me discussion group, with LGBTQ individuals and allies within your Ward or Stake, because that's something that a lot of people in the
church are already doing. And it's like, faith affirming, and it's not scary. It's like something directly from our leaders in the organization. But we can do it in a way that's more inclusive, and can build community in a way that points people to Christ.
Yeah. And and I love about the idea of a Come Follow Me group is you don't have to do anything like it, like the curriculum is already there. You just have to say, I am doing this, and then tell people that you were doing it. You know, when I started my group in Tucson, there were two gay people there the first day me and Paul, that was it. And then but then we told people about
it. Because I talked to people I've, I've mentioned this idea, some people like well, no one would come I'm, like, who cares, you do it, you tell people that you're doing it. And if one other person comes, like that person needed it, and I doubt it's gonna just be one person, like these kinds of things, snowball and grow because they're needed.
You know, as a special education teacher, something that's constantly on my mind is inclusion and the idea of inclusivity. And I think sometimes people are scared in the church that when we're asking for inclusivity, people think that you guys want to just like knock all the books off the bookshelf and put your own thing
in there. But really, what you're asking for right is, is to make small accommodations, so that you guys can be at home in a church is just like, if I was going to take one of my special education students, they might not be totally successful if I don't give them any accommodations in the general education setting. But what I can do is take that exact same thing, and make some small accommodations to make it so it works for them. So like you guys are saying with come follow me.
You're not asking for a whole new curriculum for you. You're asking for a space in the church to be able to study it for you and for your need for your own space to learn the gospel in the ways that you guys need it.
Definitely. I think it's really powerful when allies asked church leaders, how they can help create that space. Because a it kind of gives accountability to a church leader. And because I feel like people still don't know that there's gay people at church, right? Because it used to be so polarized. And like, especially like coming out of the days of proposition eight, it was like, church members versus gay people. And like, that's just
not true. Like church members are gay people, there is no us versus them, like them is us is you is me like, we're all one body of Christ. So "a" it kind of like, gives a little bit of accountability, like how can I help your efforts, Bishop or Stake President in creating
inclusivity. But it also like shows that there's a market for that within local congregations, right, that there are allies there, and can maybe kind of help create some of those some of that community and like, spark some of those connections.
Yeah, definitely. Can I ask you a question, Rachel?
You can ask me a question.
How did you end up being part of the Gay Straight Alliance at your school?
I just had a friend who was gay. And I really don't even remember the conversation. But they just asked me if I wanted to go with them. And I was like, why would I not go with them. And so I went, and, you know, this was 10 years ago. So it wasn't like people weren't as open in Texas in high school 10 years ago. And for the most part, it was straight people just trying to be supportive.
And I'm sure there's people who were not, hadn't come out yet who are looking, I guess for, you know, those people who they could reach out to in the future. So I just got invited. And like I said, I just the opportunity presented itself in it. And I took it.
My brother, who is great. His name is Justin, a couple years ago, he is a counselor at a middle school in Washington. And he started a gay club for students there. And it was a lot of work. And there was some pushback, but it happened and, and I thought it was really beautiful. And then we were on a road trip a couple years ago, when he was telling me all about
it. And he said, Ben, I did this for you, like I did it because I didn't want like I didn't want I don't want someone who's like you in middle school to have to feel like they're alone. And I thought that was like such a kind gift of him to like, give to those students that he did, because he didn't want someone like me to feel alone.
A powerful thing about that framework of like an ally club, is that closeted LGBTQ people are going to come there pretending to be allies, like I did that I'm sure you did that to a Ben like, that just naturally happens. Like before, you're ready to come out, you kind of want to like check out the space, you're like, I'm an ally. There's so much fear of coming out and kind of like feeling like you're gonna disrupt your family or your society or, like, take on all of these misconceptions that you
don't really fulfill. Right? So to have a space to where you can, like, come into yourself and gain confidence with who you are, is so important.
Yeah. You know, I actually did do that. Shortly after I came out. I went to this like BYU discussion at like someone's house that I had somehow heard about, about LGBTQ stuff. And this was like back in like, 2007, like, this was ages ago. And I had just come out to my to my friend Mitch, and I really wanted to go, I didn't want to go by myself. And so I asked him if he would come with me. And both he and his wife came with
me. And like that was like such a gift for them to give me just like, I want to do this thing, but I couldn't do it alone. So they came with me.
With allies, it's a lot of people are afraid to do it wrong. They're like, well, I want to do this Come Follow Me group, and I'm afraid I'm gonna say something wrong, or I want to wear this pin but maybe it won't be the right one. Or like, saying something will like actually make it harder for the person which is, which can
happen. But a lot of times, if you're like, really sincere about trying to understand and working towards something that's gonna build, you're not going to keep going down a wrong path, like the spirit will correct you and like help you get to where you're supposed to be.
That was one thought that I had earlier is one of the most important things I think you can do as an ally is to constantly check yourself for biases, and, you know, constantly listen to other people's opinions. And I know like, you know, the the ally that I was five years ago or so when when Charlie came out to me is not the advocate that I am today. And it's it's because, you know, I've asked questions,
and I've said things wrong. You know, just thinking about about Charlie and context of different things has made me think of things differently.
Well, and another thing you do is you like, give me permission to be myself and bring up things. I'm embarrassed that I used to be embarrassed to bring up like, like you asked me like, who I have a crush on or like, what what my type is or if there's like a movie or a TV show that involves LGBTQ characters. You're like, hey, like, do you want to watch this? Do you want me to go with you? And like little things like
that. At the beginning were so helpful, because it was like, Oh, actually, I like I can do this.
Can you tell about our first experience going to a gay club? I don't know if that's allowed. I won't call it a gay
It was a gay club like, well, we were in Austin. I was club. visiting her in Texas. And we're just walking around and we walked past this like, I don't know if it was a club, it was more like a like a performance. It was like a karaoke bar. Right, basically, and it had a rainbow flag, and she just looked at me and she's like, We're going in, and I was like, I cannot go in there.
But I knew like no matter what, like, they're like, in history that was gonna come someday. And I didn't want him to have to do that. alone. I wanted him to be with someone safe when he went, so--
Yeah. She like took me in. And like people were singing karaoke. And I like saw gay people. And like, we walked, like, we made a lap, and then we left. And then I was like, Oh, my gosh, and she was like, cool. You know, like, we did it.
And I think he was like, I mean,
Ben feels uncomfortable.
No, no. I just don't really like have a response to that.
I went to a gay bar with my cousin.
Well, one thing I've noticed about Charlie, and he's gotten a lot better, but like, because there's been like, years and years and years of like demonizing himself, because he's been. What's the word for when you hate gay people?
Homophobic?
Yes, he's been homophobic against himself
She's so good. She doesn't even know what it's called.
I'm so not homophobic like, I can't even remember the word.
But like, I mean, I guess taking those opportunities to like...
She normalized it. She normalizes who I am,
Normalized the situation. Right. Normalize a crush. Normalize things that are milestones for everyone else that feel taboo, because he's gay. And then just like, even things, like he wouldn't listen to Sam Smith for so long. Because like, secretly, he was harboring homophobia against him, right? And I'm like, dude, like, you probably would like his music if you didn't know he was gay. And he's like, Huh, like, like,
I never considered that.
I never considered that.
I don't know who that is.
Sam Smith
Sam Smith, he's a gay singer.
I would sing it for you but would ruin the podcast.
I gathered that he was a gay singer basically.
Well, like Modern Family, I wouldn't watch Modern Family because like, I was still harboring homophobia. And I like I was thought it was wrong. And she was like, not like, it's actually a cool show, and like, you're gay. So like, watch a healthy gay couple like that might help. And then it does, you know.
One thing that people have done that really helped me, so there have been like, at different times of my life have needed different things. And one of the things I've needed the most is like people like take me into their families, and just like, let me know that I belong. And so I've mentioned before, but when I when I moved away from Tucson, my friends, Kevin and Alison, they said, we want to Skype with you, at least
every other Sunday. And so every other Sunday night, I know that I'm gonna be talking to them. And like, just having that appointment means so much to me. Because I know that like, they're gonna be there. We can talk about whatever we want. I can talk about hard things, we can talk about nothing. And it's, it's just so meaningful to
me. And whenever holidays come, I get so many invitations from people to to spend the holidays with them, whatever holiday like tons of people I'm very loved and taken care of, for the listener, like, I don't know who who's marginalized in your life or who who needs to be included. But I'm sure there's someone, I'm sure there's someone that's lonely, who just needs to be included, you'll know who how to reach out to those people, when you really when you really seek inspiration.
I think one thing too, that's hard within the church is sometimes there are topics that do marginalize people in the LGBT community. And I know that, like if I've heard a particularly tough conference, talk about marriage and family, like I will send a text and be like, Hey, are you feeling okay? Because I know that sometimes those topics are ones that are that are hard to hear, when you don't feel like that you're represented at all, and you don't know how you fit in into
that topic. And so I think just like, you know, whether it's whether it's a conference, or whether it's a discussion at church about things like that, try to find ways to bring people of other situations into that because there is a place, but we're not always talking about it.
You're right there like our there's always a way to make it more inclusive. And if you're if you're preparing for a lesson, in a way that's like, let me think about people who might not fit this mold. And I feel like that's when inspiration comes when you are actively seeking to build Zion and like expand your ability to reach people and help people
connect with Christ. That's when you're going to know and be inspired, what to say and what to do and how to adjust the way you are interacting with other people in order to to create that, that foundation that space for them.
Definitely.
I think like moral of the story is there are issues it is hard to be LGBTQ in the church. And there are ways that we need allies. We need visible love and support. And we need visible LGBTQ people. And in order for that to happen there there needs to be changes. We need to like be innovative and think of creative solutions and maybe like look twice at what we've been doing and what we can change and how to move forward and create a more Zion esque world for all of us to live in.
And the way to do that is to have that mindset. I mean, like the the birth, the origin of our religion is there was this complex issue that nobody really had any good answers to. And this boy, Joseph Smith was perturbed by that, like, it really bugged him. And he was like, I want to find answers. So he went to the scriptures and read that if you lack wisdom, you can ask God, and that you'll get answers, you'll get like, God giveth liberally. He's not going to withhold if we're
seeking. And so like to put that into today's context, like, nobody knows what to do with LGBTQ people in the church, like, it's been tumultuous, it's confusing, it's complex. And if you want to get answers of what you can do, like pray to God, and you'll be inspired and receive revelation, and we can move forward in a way that's not based on like, what everyone else is saying, but based on what God actually like, wants
and needs. And so if you're looking to be an ally, or if you're an LGBTQ individual who's wondering what your next step is, take information, search the Scriptures, talk to other people, and then pray and say, like, what do I need to do? And a lot of times, you kind of already know what you need to do. It's just kind of maybe a little bit scary. But like, if anyone's listening to this and has had ideas, but it's like, oh, I don't know if that's the
right idea I should do. I mean, like, Joseph Smith started an entire new church, like, that's a pretty big project. So like, like, what's your big project? What's the thing that the God might be asking of you right now, but it might be hard, but but it's just so needed.
And I just echoing what you said, like, like, we need to educate ourselves. We need to see the gaps and then work to fill in those gaps. And I think the gaps that exist have existed to me and the people that that I know are, you know, people need to feel feeling to be connected. They need to be spiritually fed. They know know they're valued. They know they can be themselves and come as themselves. And when we look at the gaps and figure out well, how are we going to
fill those gaps? That's when inspiration strikes, because like this podcast started, because there was a list of questions that BYU students submitted. That--
never got answered.
Yeah,
We didn't have enough time to get to them.
And then one of my friends was like, Well, why do you answer those questions on a podcast? I was like, I don't want to do that. I was like, oh, shoot.
Yeah. And it's turned into something really beautiful.
Yeah. And, you know, can I say one more thing.
Oh yeah, go ahead.
I think like, some of you said, that I really liked is like, we don't know the answers. And I think like, the most beautiful answers are gonna be things like none of us has ever thought of yet. Yeah, like, like, the coolest things are gonna happen. The next two to 10 years are things that we have not even conceived of.
Yeah, well, and the cool thing about revelation is that it is personal. So like, based on you and your position in your family, in your ward, in your geographical location, like, the way to go about this is probably going to be a little bit different. It'll be like localized. That's cool. Like, that's exciting. And you can take best practices from different people and different organizations and figure out what you need to do for you to lift where you stand.
There's this Hugh B. Brown quote that I really love. He was in the First Presidency, like back during the time of David O. McKay. And he said, "We don't care if your thoughts are orthodox or heterodox, as long as you have thoughts." And I just love that because you say like, we don't really care what you think as long as you're thinking. And, you know, I don't really care what allies are doing as long as they're doing something.
Right. And I think it's all about intentionality. And and people can tell, like, if you're, if you're asking questions, to, you know, pique your curiosity versus to help, I think people are very aware of that. And so, you know, if you have good intentions, and you're trying to help, I don't think that you can really, there's no, you're gonna burn a bridge if you're if your interests are to really be an ally.
If it's like born of love.
Right. And I think also, I mean, the most important gay that you can help us to get, you know, you know, and so--
100%
The gay you know, is the gay that you need to be most worried about. And so that's the, that's the one hopefully, you have a relationship with that with that person, especially that person, they notice you if if you go with good intentions, and with love, there's there's not really a way that it can go too horribly wrong.
Well, Rachel, it was wonderful to have you on this podcast.
Thank you.
Thank you for coming.
So lovely to sit across from you because you're just beautiful and talented and wonderful. Thank you for joining us today. If you've enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving us a review. And as always, please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or Brigham Young University. We are not trying to be prescriptive or telling you what to think or what to do.
You heard three perspectives, and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time,