How can I be an LGBTQ+ ally while supporting Church teachings?

affairs. And before that, I was the Deputy Chief of Staff and Communications Director for Governor Herbert in Utah, and worked in public policy for 20 years. So different professional background, then, then some, but I find God has had a hand in every role I've ever had leading up to the next one.

I think there are a lot of misconceptions about what a person who identifies as LGBTQ experiences, there are a lot of assumptions about it. I think sometimes people think it just means sexual preference. And they don't understand there's more dimensionality to that identity than that. And because of that, I think people jump to conclusions and think that if you identify that way, it must somehow violate some church teaching or some principle of

the gospel of Jesus Christ. And it's a journey, I think, for most allies to start to understand that and it usually starts, I think, for a lot of people when there's a face to it, when there's a person that they understand, and they know and they have curiosity, and they're trying to understand that issue. Somehow that breaks down a lot of barriers, but before they understand it, or start to have a person's face on the issue, I think there's just reticence of, am I sanctioning

sin? And you know, that comes from complete ignorance and misunderstanding, but somehow they feel like they've, they've sanctioned that, you know, triggering word lifestyle, and made a bunch of assumptions about what that means for a person.

And as you associate with different people, LGBTQ people, you'll be able to learn more and grow and we're kind of all on a journey, like a process together. And if you're too afraid to start the process, then you'll never have the opportunity to grow.

But one of the main points that we felt needed to be said and, and needs to be understood better is people mean different things when they use the word gay. And the best thing to do is to ask them, tell me what you mean by that. What does that, what does that feel like to you? Help me understand more. And I think if you want to be a good ally, you ask a lot of

questions. You try to make as few assumptions as possible, and you try to understand because even among LGBTQ people, like there's a variety of opinions and, and experiences and understanding, and some people are comfortable identifying as gay, and others will say, "I'm same sex attracted" and they're perfectly comfortable with that. But that might feel like an offensive title to somebody else. So I think the starting point is to say, What do you mean? Tell me more?

Yeah, as you've been talking about, think about my friend, Diana in Tucson. And she to me is like the quintessential ally. When I came out to her, she had no idea that I was gay. She wasn't expecting it. She was not prepared to have the conversation. And I wanted to share some of my life with her and, and she just didn't seem ready. And so over the next few weeks, I was like, "Hey, you have any questions about me

being gay?" and she didn't. And then a few weeks after I came out to her, we drove up to the Mesa Temple, which is like a two hour drive from Tucson, just the two of us. And she had some questions. And so we talked about my experiences the whole way up. Then we got out of the temple, she said she was thinking me the whole time, then on the way home, we kept having that conversation. Then after that, she was all in. She was all into to be an ally and to be

supportive. And, and when I started a support group in Tucson, for LGBTQ members of the church, I knew that she would want to be involved as an ally. So I didn't even ask her, I just assumed that she would be involved. And then we had meetings at her house all the time. And she often joked that there were always men at her house, single men, but they were all gay. And then when I left Tucson, she ran the group for a while.

it. But others have been doing it a long time and understand some nuances about how certain symbols or words are loaded for some people. Yeah, definitely. As a quick example of that, Allie, you mentioned the switch from Mormons and Gays to Mormon and Gay. And I was on a mission I was serving as a missionary, when this happened, I hadn't really told anybody about who I am or what I was experiencing. But on, on p-days, we were allowed to like go to

church-approved websites. I heard about this and so I was like, "Oh, no I hope my companion doesn't see me." And I went to it. And I spent the entire time that I usually emailed my family, looking at this and reading these stories. And I just remember feeling, I felt a little bit more seen, I guess, because of this inclusive language, Mormon and Gay and it made me feel less like I was being split. And more like, there were other people like me.

Granted, this is a while ago, and I still had a long way to come. But that one little just, I guess, you knowing and recognizing that difference in the semantics and the language had a huge impact on me and was kind of like a turning point or like a, like a foundation where I was able to build my own faith and understand more about my own orientation. Thank you. That's beautiful. I'm thrileed, I'm thrilled to hear that and I hope, I hope many had that kind

of experience. I really believe a tool of the adversary is to create a wedge, is to create us versus them and, and divide us as a people as a Zion people, but also us internally, right to make us feel like we're split between identities instead of we're actually the divine creature God intended for us to be and we're a whole person. And we can see the beauty in others as well. True to church culture fashion, I was looking at like dictionary definitions of ally just to make

sure I had it right. And a lot of things were associated with helping one another and to unite or to form a connection between two parties. Honestly, that made me think of ministering and that this whole push that we have to minister to be pastors to be Christ-like and reach out to people. Even though we may see

perceived differences. To me that's kind of like changing the word ally of being less of like, maybe a politically charged term, or, you know, kind of like a foreign thing to being like reaching out to other children of God and being Christ-like and bringing them into your life and letting them teach you and just just seeing and being seen, you know? Yeah, that reminds me of the scripture where when Jesus was visiting the Americas, he said, "I've commanded none of you to

go away. I've commanded all of you to come unto me."

who they are. And I think so often, we're inclined to feel like we have to assess the status of others, before we get too close. You know, we're raised to, our parents to teach us to choose good friends, choose wisely. And so we, we start to worry somehow that someone might have an adverse impact on us. And I have to tell you, from my own experiences, those who are in my world that are LGBTQ+ when I'm around them, I can tell you it's sacred

ground. When they've shared their stories of their journeys, for some, this is the crucible that drives them to their knees where they find their God, and they discover God's love. And for others, this is the way God loves them. This is the, they feel God's love through this identity through these experiences. It has shaped them in very profound ways. And it's so beautiful when you just let down the guard and stop judging or assessing or analyzing and just open your heart and your

mind to what can be shared. You start to see through God's eyes a little bit and you start to realize I can, I'm actually so blessed. I'm so very blessed by these experiences and stories that otherwise would not be my own. And I feel so honored when I'm let into that experience in some way. So Allie, what you're saying is some people might be hesitant to talk to LGBTQ members, because they're worried about the impact

they might have on, on us. But what, what you're saying is, the impact is positive, it's sacred, it's beautiful. Absolutely. Absolutely. I, I had an opportunity, one time to meet with a group of trans individuals and their loved ones. And at the time, I have to tell you, I had zero experience. And I was a little bit of a nervous wreck because I was so afraid of saying the wrong thing of hurting them unintentionally, anyway, because I felt the need

to share God's love. And as I listened to their stories, I just felt all these assumptions melting away, and I started to, I really did feel like there was a divine presence in the room, as I came to understand them better. And I still, couldn't I, you know, I would probably still struggle to understand or express everything about that experience. But I'm trying and it's, you know, like I said, it's always a journey. But I do feel the Savior's hand in helping us all, learn more about

one another. And, and to be honest, I think that's, that's the essence of that second great commandment is to become one, to start to understand one another better. That's, that's a covenant commitment we make to not divide, but to, what practice what I call, radical acceptance and radical inclusion, because I think that's who Jesus is. He's radically inclusive. The only thing he excluded from his teachings was exclusivity. Right? Come and follow me.

You know, what you're saying reminds me of the story of Jesus with the woman at the well, who was a Samaritan and historically disenfranchised from the Jewish people. And she said, "No, you can't talk to me because you're a Jewish man." And I don't remember the exact words. He says, he's like, No, I'm going to talk to you. And then she ends up going and preaching at him. And there's this beautiful moment in that show that The Chosen, I don't know if you've seen it. It's fiction, based on

the Gospels. And there's this moment where the woman says, "Well, you can't talk to me because you're a Jew and I'm a Samaritan." He said, "I came to Samaria to see you." Yes. And what does she see in him? She sees he's the Messiah. Right? So she's othered in some way, but she recognizes the Divinity in him.

kind of arguing this. And then after a couple minutes, I was like, "Sam, I don't remember a time when I haven't felt like this. And I understand that, that you don't but but we're like, there's something inherently different about me, that gives me a different experience when I'm around my church community. And and my religious worship is always coupled with or compounded by

feeling like this." And he was thinking for a little bit and he said, "Well, well, when you're a Bishop, you can make sure that doesn't happen in your ward." And I said, Sam, I'll never be a Bishop, like, I'm gay, I'm not going to be a bishop, right? And he thought for a minute, and he said, Well, when I'm a bishop, I'm going to make sure that nobody else feels like that in my ward. Then he said, Tell me a little bit more about what that feels like, and how that manifests. And we had a really

beautiful conversation. To me, that was the most beautiful manifestation of being an ally, because he took an experience, like he took my lived experience, and believed it, even though he'd never had that before, and was willing to say, "I'm going to make changes in my life. And I'm going to be aware to make sure that this doesn't perpetuate and affect anybody else in a negative way, like it's done to you."

Yeah. And your conversation with him pivoted his paradigm, I think, because suddenly he felt responsibility, and stewardship for that experience. I do think that's part of being an ally is saying, their experience is going to be different than mine. But I'm going to try to make sure that their experience is exactly what Christ intended it to be. And as aligned as it can be, and I actually think that's the whole point of the church.

It's not the outcomes, it's the process of us learning to work together and work through things. So I think that's a beautiful example of the conversation you had of trying to get to a place of understanding we need to do more of that, and, and will be a better Zion as a result. There's a story I want to share where when I was working at LDS Family Services, I would talk with Bishops a lot and, and there was a Bishop who sent a number of ward members to meet

with me. And so we became friends and, and he had a trans woman in his ward. And he had asked me some questions about what to do and I basically said, "You know, this is something for you guys to figure out. Seek inspiration and revelation. Figure out how to, how to include this, this ward member in your word family." And so this trans woman had decided to transition to female and didn't

own any dresses. And so the, the Relief Society President got a couple of other sisters together, and took this ward member shopping, and like taught her how to put on makeup and dress the way that she wanted to dress so that when she came to church, she would feel as comfortable there as possible. And the Bishop was telling me

the story. And I just felt so much, I could just like feel the love that they had for this for this person that they want her to feel like she belonged there the way that she wanted to be. And, you know, they said, you know, we don't know all the answers, but we want her to come and feel as comfortable as possible. And I think to me that that was being an ally, just just saying, you know, we want you to to feel comfortable, and we're going to make you the most comfortable you can be.

you debunk this myth. And it kind of like messes with my ability to, like, actually worship and connect with Christ because I always have to be like housekeeping all the time, and keeping everybody like in line. And I've noticed a couple times when that's happened, when I have friends who, who are allies, and have taken the time to really get to know me and my story and in a diverse range of people's experiences, they can kind of speak up and take that

burden off of me. So for me, like being an ally is a way to fulfill our baptismal covenant to bear one another's burdens, because in my life, that's one of my burdens. And it's something that affects, it affects me, you know, it makes me feel exhausted sometimes and, and unable to connect with, with like, the sacrament even like, because I'm constantly thinking about how I have to, like,

debunk myths. I'm just really grateful to those people who have been able to raise their hand and speak up or kind of take some of that weight off of me, so that I can feel more part of the group.

room, right. And I don't speak for all women, and I certainly haven't had the same experience all women have had, but it does alter my experiences in, in worshipping or in community when I feel that responsibility. And there's a lot of studies about where we have to reach a threshold of a certain number of people who have understanding within a group to start to impact the outcomes of that

communal experience. And so it only helps us when we get more people in the room creating more understanding and speaking up for and on behalf of each other. So, you know, I would never want to presume that I could accurately reflect either of your lived experiences any more than you would want to reflect my childbirth experience, right? But, but at the same time, when we share that, there's something that happens, I think, and so often we think of faith as

transactional. But I really don't think it's like, I give you A and you get back B, and we've swapped something, actually think I share A you share B and we are enlarged. And what we both walk away with is something even, it's less tangible than some algebraic equation, right? It's, it's more like we're enlarged, and we recognize divine in each other.

You know, this is something as a mother, as a grandmother, I wish that I would have maybe done a better job, or I hope I did an adequate job of instilling in my own children, that they have a sense of the divine within them that God's seeds of infinity are within each person, you have the power to become something that would blow your mind, your limited mortal mind. And there's

so much we don't understand. And could we just stop assessing one another by these patterns and prescriptions and start just seeing, like really seeing each other for who God wants us to be and who we are meant to be? Because we're all in a process of becoming. I have to share with you I had this experience. I'll be really frank about it. My husband had a brain injury from a bike accident. And it altered him for a bit. And I had to grieve the fact that I was now married to somebody a little

bit different. And I had this powerful dream. And I'm not a dream person. I'm not a, I don't remember my dreams. I mean, I remember parts of them, but they're never symbolic or meaningful. And but this dream was, was profound. And in this dream, I encountered my husband after the resurrection. He was magnificent, enlarged, regal, even. And I felt so much like really deep, profound love for him, unlike what I've

experienced on this earth. And I awakened and thinking I need to see who he's meant to be, who he's intended to be eternally. And if we could see that within everyone, and we could feel that sense of deep abiding love, unconditional love for everybody, how much different would this planet be? And I started, that's my prayer to God, like, help me see this magnificent child of yours.

Yeah, that's a beautiful story, Allie, thank you for sharing and, and just this invitation to take time to see everyone the way that they are intended to be, the way that God sees us. I compiled a few quotes from church leaders about being an ally. And if it's okay, I'd like to share some of them. M Russell Ballard said, "We need to listen to and understand what our LGBT brothers and sisters are feeling

and experiencing. Certainly, we must do better than we've done in the past, so that all members feel they have a spiritual home where their brothers and sisters love them, and where they have a place to worship and serve the Lord." And another by Elder Quintin L. Cook. He said, "As a church, nobody should be more loving and compassionate towards LGBTQ people. Let us be at the forefront in terms of expressing love, compassion and outreach. Let's not have families exclude

or be disrespectful." And...

us. There were probably like, 20,000 people in the room. I just remember feeling for the first time I wasn't swimming against this current. For the first time, it wasn't me fighting, fighting, fighting, to be able to go to church and, and stay in this culture that I love. But that was so painful, and so isolating to me. And it kind of opened up a bigger space for me. And then it also led to increased conversations with family members and friends and

colleagues and peers. His one act of allyship by recognizing that someone's different and struggling and maybe doesn't have a place, and then speaking to that in a way that gives other people permission to be an ally was, was really powerful for me.

we can do better that way. I think there's a, there's so much potential, I think we are doing better. I mean, I don't know what your lived experiences have been since coming out. But I hope it you know, I hope you're feeling more seen and more embraced. And I don't think the adversary is going to let down. You know, I'm not saying it's going to be coasting from here. But I do you think like, that's the first critical step to finding that sense of community

is mutual understanding. And so I, I'm so grateful for your voices in this arena, because I know so many others are wanting to feel seen and heard. Yeah, thank you Allie. And you know, Charlie, one of one things we want to do is, you know, help elevate other voices, so that, so that lots of people are talking and sharing stories, because, like you said, when we can feel seen, when we can hear each other's stories, like that's how we build Zion.

Occasionally, people talk to us and they'll say that there are things they're uncomfortable doing. They're worried that they might lose their temple recommend if they support certain events, or if they support gay marriage. What would you say to someone who is wondering if they should go to a loved one's wedding if they were marrying a same sex partner? Well, we, I just recently had this opportunity and experience. I felt perfectly comfortable going. I don't see it as a

violation of anything. In fact, I say it as an extension of Christ's love, like, what would the Savior do. And God will be where his children are gathered. He will be there. Jesus called himself the light of the world. He called us the light of the world as well. And I feel a responsibility, a stewardship, if you will, to be in those sacred spaces, wherever they are on this planet, to join with

God's children. And if this couple sees this as a divine union, I am I am 100% with them because I want God in that relationship. And I want to see the peace that comes with them feeling loved, and supported, and encouraged. I don't have all the answers. And I don't have, I mean, I've, I think as I've aged, it's, it's more I'm much more comfortable with ambiguity than ever before in my life, and I trust and I think that's what faith is. It's just trusting a loving God, to help us all find

our way home. I'm gonna trust that if I'm doing my part to show love, He'll figure things out. Allie what you're saying reminds me of something my dad's, and I've shared this quote before, but when my when my older brother was dating someone that we didn't like, and we thought they were going to get engaged. And my sister asked my dad, what we should do if they came home and announced, they were

engaged. And my dad said, "We will cheer for them, and we will be happy, because they're going to do what they want to do whether we like it or not."

support me. They were happy that I was going on a mission, came to my farewell and sent me letters and were there with me the whole journey, even though if they could have planned my life for me, they would have planned it much differently. But they kept that open. Right. And that I think, that's the biggest part is how do we ensure that we continue to be part of each other's lives. And, you know, I have gay friends who have married. I have gay friends

who have divorced. And I'm here for them no matter what their life circumstances because my job is to love. My job is just period to love. That's it. People have asked me before if I if I would go to a gay wedding. And I say, well, the Book of Mormon doesn't say anything about same sex marriages. But it does say a lot about costly apparel, how costly apparel can be a symptom of pride and lead to the downfall of a

civilization. And I jokingly say, if I were gonna choose whether or not to go to a wedding, it wouldn't be about the gender of the couples, but about how much the wedding dress costs. Because the Book of Mormon warns us much more about costly apoparel than it does about gay marriage. And about pride. Yeah, I think that there's something that I want to add, if that's okay, that... Yeah, I think one of the ways that we can sometimes

like. In my life, when I have people who might make decisions I wouldn't necessarily think are ideal I'm reminded by the pirit often, they're just at his point on their journey, and t's not over. It's not over. nd we are eternal beings. We elieve in a gospel of rogression. And we also believe n the Gospel of restoration. nd I think part of that estoration is remembering who e are eternally, and ecognizing God never gives up o us. And he's always working w th us wherever we are in our j

urney. And we're all fallen in s me way. Like, none of us is p rfect, right? We're all f guring this out. So the point i n't, are you figuring it out b tter than I am? The point is, a e we figuring it out the best w can together? And are we safe s ace for each other, no matter ou identity, no matter our mo tal experience. I think we ha e a responsibility to be th re for each other, no matter wh t our choices are. That's co enant Christianity.

put up a barrier, or a wedge is to kind of be like preachy or judgy. And say, you know, almost lecture people who we feel like are, are maybe not living the path that we think they should live or the path that we want to live. I really don't think I've ever needed that, someone to preach to me or lecture me. But what I have needed is an increased measure of love and

support. And so, so going forward, that's kind of been one of my mantras is to try not to do that to other people and say, "You know what, you're doing this, but I think you should be doing this instead." Instead, just say, "How can I show up for you?" Good question.

decide to make covenants. And so often we jump to some checkbox, right, that somebody should be complying with. Instead of saying, "Look, the first step is they need to feel God's love. They need to know God's love. They need to know how beautiful his plan is, and that they're not forgotten ever, no matter how dark life gets." And if people feel God's love, they will find their way. I'm confident of that. It's, my fear is, when those I love forget to turn to God and fall away from

that light. And my prayer for them is I pray that they crave light in their lives, because when they crave that light, they will find God's love without fail and they will find their way. He is not giving up on them. That reminds me of how we talk about the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel. And the first one is faith. And I think there's a reason it's first because faith in Jesus Christ has to come before we do

anything else. And if we're trying to you know, skip or judge people for not being on level three, like we think we are, when, when they, you know, if...

just this dark space. And from from knowing friends, and just really wonderful people who have found their partner and felt good about getting married, and I watched their lives, and there's, they still have faith, you know? They pray together. They worship together. And they commune with their families. And I think it really limits us as humans, when we think that someone else is unable to connect with God because of a choice they've made.

I think that's such a great point, Charlie, and I don't think I could have said it better. For me, in my life, when I've been through really hard times. The passage that inspires me and grounds me is Second Nephi Four. In it Nephi talks about Christ as his rock. But he says, "I know in whom I have trusted. I know and whom I have trusted." And so often, as we're navigating this, we want to know where we're going. And we want to know from A to Z, what all the steps look like. And we just

don't know. None of us knows how life is going to play out for us. But if we know and whom we trust, it will all be okay in the end. And there's prophetic affirmation of that. President Hinckley would say it's all going to be okay. Like, we just need to hang on to each other and do our best. And so if we honor that covenant, and hang on to each other, the best we can, and trust in the Savior's healing, and in His grace and His redemption, we know that the

atonement is infinite. And we know God loves all of us more than we can ever wrap our brains around.

But we need to have the assurance that God knows exactly what he's doing. And, and all will be well if we trust and we have faith, we find tremendous peace and hope in that message. Yeah. I see you saying again, again, that we just need to trust in God, trust in His plan for his children. And that should take away some of the worry and some of the pain. I'm going to extend that message to LGBTQ people who are worried about their future and where

they're going to end up. It's a very ambiguous space, there's so much gray area. And there's a lot of like, I find myself all the time with unanswered questions and with lack of a life path or any type of framework or structure. And that's something that I've really had to fall back on a lot is just daily bread, trust God. And that as I check in and say, "God, who am I? And where should I be?" that I'll be led to the right place, and sometimes it looks nothing like what I

expected. And it's funny, because I mean, where I am now, compared to where I thought I would be. Like, my 20 year old self would like curl up and freak out if, if he knew that current me was doing a podcast about being gay, right? Because because I just didn't think that was okay. I didn't have any way to comprehend that. But this is where I feel like God has led me and I'm happy and I'm in a

beautiful space. And I have to give myself that same leeway going forward, that as I trust God, and surround myself with good people, and do the best to reach out and not lie about who I am, that I will continue going to foreign, unforeseen places that are exactly where I need to be. And God will use you. God will find ways for you. And Charlie as you're talking, I'm just sort of giggling to myself, because,

I mean, I want to say amen. But it's also that as an LDS woman, that's been my experience too. Like if my 20 year old self knew where my 50 year old self had been. I think I would have been like, You got to be kidding me, like, married with four kids so stereotypical, but that was not at all the vision I had for myself at all. And yet, I have trusted God at all of those junctures and when my heart is open, He's found a way to use me and the gifts I have, and I trust that same lesson applies

to anyone on this planet. And that, sort of the fact that you're now awakened to that will help you in that journey so much, because you will know, it will become a partnership with God, like your whole journey will be a partnership with God. And you will know, I was right where he needed me to be. And he knew right where I was all along. I've just been thing about people who have been good allies

to me in my life. While I appreciate the people who have like, stood up and corrected misconceptions and kind of been defenders of me publicly, I really appreciate that. But as I've been thinking about the people who have been the best allies for me, I remember when I was dating this guy, and my friends wanted to hear about what was going on. They wanted to be involved in, in that part of my life. And one of my friends wanted to meet him, and

we and we met and hung out. And I remember that being like such a meaningful thing that they were just willing to be with me, wherever my journey was taking me. And that relationship didn't end up being something that lasted but having those people with me in that part of my journey, just trying to understand me what was going on just really meant the world for me. And all those people are still very much active parts of my life.

So maybe the best allyship is in those quiet one on one personal moments, not necessarily those public forums, right? Sometimes the best allies are the people that make me feel like I do fit in and that there's not some sort of like rough edge on me or spike in whatever social setting I'm in. Like my family and my friends, where, where me being gay is just a part of me. And it's not some sort of blinking light on me. I just feel normal and

accepted. And that's been a really beautiful experience for me. Well, Allir, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been such a pleasure to have you on. And I've admired you from afar for a long time so it's great, I'm grateful to have some more time to chat and hang out. Well, likewise, Ben Schilary. I'm a fangirl, both of you. So it's an honor to be here and and just an honor to be part of this conversation. Thank you. Thank you for joining us today.

If you have enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving us a podcast review. And as always, please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We are not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do. You heard three perspectives and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety

of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time.