Welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Charlie Bird.
And I am Ben Schilaty. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We are not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives.
Today's question is, how can I be an ally from the closet?
Ben and I are not terribly diverse, and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, both of us came out in a very public way.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, Charlie came out in the Deseret News op ed and I came out on my blog that literally a dozen people follow. How many people read your op ed Charlie?
Um, a lot. A lot of people read your blog too.
Yeah, I mean, before I came out, like, seriously, dozens of people would read my blog, like, just my friends.
I haven't read your blog.
Ever?
I've never read your coming out post. No.
it's pretty good.
So was my coming out. article
Well, I read that. You actually had me proofread it. Anyway...
There's no wrong way to come out.
We would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. So today, we're joined by Collette Dalton. Welcome Collette.
Thanks for having me.
So tell us a little bit about yourself.
Well, I'm Mormon and gay. I don't know what else you need to know. Um, I'm actually a therapist, I got my MSW at BYU, and I'm currently a therapist at a college in that area, and the only mental health professional. And so it's been a journey, as I've been dealing with my own sexuality--because I am not sure if you want to get into this--I discovered my sexuality later in life. I feel sometimes odd about that. I know a lot of people seem to realize it when they're
young. For me, I realized I first had a crush on woman when I was in my mid 20s. And even then I was "Oh, I'm straight, except for her. It's just weird flu. She's really cool this, I'll get over it, I'll be fine." And that's just in the last couple years since I've been in this job that I've been really dealing with my sexuality more and realizing that it's not just her, I'm pretty gay. So it's
been really interesting. Being a therapist and having skills to work through that on myself, and also be able to help others and understand some of the gray area I think that sometimes comes with sexuality.
I think it's funny how we're going for, like diversity of perspective. But you both have an MSW from BYU, and I'm about to start mine.
So something has been a pretty complicated story for you, where you, you're you are responsible for the mental health of the whole college, while you're also coming to terms with your own sexual orientation.
Yeah, it was definitely quite a journey. And like I said, for a while, it was really fun--I'm totally straight still--and then, this is just in the last little bit, dealing with it myself. But I think it's actually been a blessing. Dealing with my sexuality, understanding the LGBTQ community a little bit better, so I can better serve and be
open to that. Picking up I remember, I was talking to one student and picking up with some cues that he was using gender neutral pronouns for the partners he was talking about. And I was able to ask him, "Are you gay?" And he said, "Yes." And then we're able to have a really much more open conversation. And so I think that's been really helpful for me.
Wonderful. So Collette how "out" are you right now?
I say pretty out most, most all my friends are gay. When I moved here, I started making new friends through different queer organizations. And my family knows. But ironically, with the topic of this podcast, I'm actually coming out of the closet talking about how you can be an ally from the closet, but I think I'm pretty familiar with the topic, having been the closet last few years dealing with it.
Okay. Well, thank you for sharing that. And thank you for being willing and open to have this conversation with us.
Yeah.
You know, I've talked to a lot of people who will come out to me, they'll come out to some friends and family, and they'll say, "I want to help, how can I help? What can I do to help I want to, I want to be a good advocate, and I want to help." But at the same time, they're not ready to be open about their, their orientation with the whole world. And so but they
still want to help. And so what we want to talk about today is you know, how can someone who is still in the closet, but has desires to like do good and make make positive change, and what what can they do?
Yeah, I think that's a great question. Um, for me, I think it really started with education, because I was I did one of my best friends from high school came out to me. And so I knew his story. But I wasn't familiar with a lot of different stories. And as you get to know queer people and their stories, I think your heart can be open to them. So listen, educate yourself. super important.
You know, as we were thinking about this topic I was trying to think of like, when I was in the closet, how was I an ally? And honestly, I couldn't think of anything I did. Like, I like after coming out, I would hear people say things like, like "Gay Marriage is gonna destroy this country." And I was like, "Um, hum." And I wouldn't, I wouldn't say anything or speak up like I was just so afraid of
anyone finding out. But at the same time I was educating myself, I was reading a lot, I was reading a lot of people's stories and watching YouTube videos and listening to podcasts and just really trying to dig into the LGBTQ experience. And so I guess that that was like, my first step to being an ally, while in the closet was just to educate myself.
And I just think about people who've been allies to me, and it's really people who are there willing to listen and be there and then speak up. I know, for me, it's always easier to speak up for someone else than it is for myself. And so as I've gotten to know, people, it's very easy for me to speak up.
And even being at a college with the therapist privilege of being able to say, "Hey, we have students that we care about that we need to talk about, we need to be aware of," and advocate for them, and not having to out myself, as I still am able to advocate for them. Or I think of one of my friends in my ward after his Stake President said a kind of hurtful thing in a word conference about queer people.
And I got up and just cried and left, she came, one person came out and found me and helped me as I cried. And another friend went up to the bishop after and said, "You need to talk to that stake presidency member because that's completely inappropriate for him to be saying there are queer people in the congregations." And so just different ways that I've seen people be allies to me that I try to be allies to others by speaking up. Even if I can't speak up for myself, I can speak up for them.
So what I'm hearing you say Collette, is being an ally in the closet would be the same thing--you do the same things that a straight person would do to be an ally.
Yeah, that's actually what I was just gonna say. I'm jumping in now, folks. Yeah, I feel like learning like, even things like learning best mental health practices, how to have like how to lean into discomfort, how to have hard conversations, how to, like meet someone where they're at and understand like emotional dependency and how you can help
them with that. And then I was even thinking like, maybe to consider taking a suicide prevention course, and become like trained in that and just like give yourself mental and emotional tools that are going to help a marginalized population.
Definitely. I'm a QPR trainer. So I've been able to do that at the college.
What is QPR? I know, but...
Yeah, keep your eyes--Question, Persuade, Refer--it's kind of a gold standard of suicide prevention training. And plenty of people here in Utah are certified to be able to do that and go out and do their wards or in classes, different workshops. And you can take it and become a gatekeeper, they call it, after just about an hour. You know then, the skills, an hour or two to be able to help someone who might be in a mental health crisis.
You know, it's interesting? So when I was working as a therapist, I wear a rainbow ring. But I would, I was working to LDS Family Services, I would take it off before meeting with clients, just because I didn't want it to be a distraction to my clients who knew nothing about me. And yet...
Well, because you only had twelve followers...
Dozens, dozens of followers. But But, you know, the point is, like, my clients didn't know anything about my personal history or anything about me. And yet, like they were able to grow and, and learn and didn't need to know about my personal history in order to grow. And so you know, if it's hard to share your personal history and your own sexual orientation, you can still help people like, like, like, people just need to be listened to, they need to be understood, they
need to be loved. They need affirmations, and compassion. And that can all happen without disclosing your own your own orientation.
Yeah, I think that's one benefit of being a therapist, that you learn those skills, and you realize it's not about me in a conversation, I can listen and be there for someone without having to talk about my story. So that was actually a really safe place for me for a long time to be able to not have to share my story. This kind of is a big thing to put it out there. But I feel like as my journey is progressing, I'm now to a spot that I want to be more
open so I can help others. That I can be a resource in a different way. Not that being in the closet is bad. You need to be safe. I remember when I first was starting to deal with my sexuality, a friend said, "Don't tell someone unless you feel confident , enough that their reaction won't mess up your mental well-being," basically. And now I feel like I am to the point that doesn't matter what others say I'm ready to just be out there and be a resource and help.
Kind of going off of that, I came out in kind of like a series. Like I didn't like I didn't start with the Deseret News article I came out to like my cousin and then my sisters. And then I found that I was most comfortable before I told the rest of my family and my friends to come out to other gay people in LGBTQ spaces. And so I got to this kind of like interesting dynamic where I was out at a level that I was comfortable with, and I could be an ally and support the community at that
level. And so that's actually kind of how I was, Ben. I know in the last episode, we talked about the work we did for the LGBTQ Working Group at BYU. I was not out when we were doing that, to very few people in like my personal life. However, I was out to the other gay students in the group and LGBTQ students in the group and the administrators, because I knew it was like a safe place where my voice could be used and needed and where like, I didn't
have to be out. And I think, I don't know if those situations are hard to find, but I found quite a few of them. So I think if you're looking for ways you can just kind of be like, half out in safe spaces and still, you know, do it.
Yeah, I have what I call like my "straight ally shirt" in quotation marks. It's just a suicide prevention rainbow shirt. So I can play up when I wasn't feeling completely safe to be out, be that half in half out. I'm a great ally, supporting the community, and be in the community go to pride and things--be around people, even if I wasn't safe to be out myself, but be out in those spaces.
Definitely. I remember before I came out to anybody when I was like 22, or 23, I used to read all these anonymous blogs by gay BYU students. And that was like, so good for me to just realize I wasn't alone and I'm not the only gay person here. And just to hear those stories, and I'm grateful for those people who weren't even I don't even know their names what they look like but they really, like they helped me feel like I wasn't alone at a time I just
felt so alone. And they did that anonymously.
Did you ever feel guilty for doing things like like supporting the LGBTQ community, knowing that you were gay, but not voicing that? Was there like dissonance there?
There was at times for sure. But I think for me, it just came back to I don't feel completely safe in this situation. Being in Utah, being surrounded by Mormons, sometimes it doesn't feel safe. I don't think people always realize what they do or don't say, and how that can be construed. And so, I sometimes I'd feel guilty, but I'm like, at least, I'm here, I'm trying, I'm learning.
One of the first times I went to like a queer space, I actually was pretending to be the ally. I had a friend and I'd come out to her. And she would--bless her heart--she was like, "I'll just pretend that I'm lesbian. So you can go and be there and you can be my straight ally." And like, you're the one who's going with me to make me comfortable. But really, it's the other way around.
that's so nice.
And she's like, "I have a short haircut." She had this super cute Pixie cut, like, "I'll pass great."
Okay, okay, so lesbians can have beautiful long brown hair too.
I do. And that's actually one thing that kind of kept me in the closet a little longer is I have straight passing privilege.
You don't drive a Subaru?
I don't drive a Subaru, don't have short hair.
She's not wearing flannel.
Yeah, I don't have any of the checkmarks besides the fact that I like women.
Do play softball? Sorry, we should stop.
I do enjoy watching female soccer, but I don't play it.
Well, I just I thought that was interesting. And like, looking back, I'm like, that's so funny that like, that's what it took to get you there. But that was, I guess I'm just saying if you want to enter like an LGBTQ space and find a resource, there's like ways to go about it that are lying. It's okay. Ben, make that sound better.
You want me to make "it's okay to lie" sound better?
You don't have to....
If you don't feel safe, you don't have to put yourself out there. And you can build up to it. And it was a little white lie that my friend was a lesbian. And I was straight.
Well, this is what I would say. I would say you don't owe anyone any explanations about your life.
You don't owe anyone. You don't owe anyone your story.
Right. Like, like, if someone's like, "Hey, are you gay?" You don't have to tell anybody, like no one has a right to know your personal history and who you are. That is something that you get to choose to share. And so I would say this line, I would say it's, it's...
It's being strategic?
Sure. Yeah, that's great.
Being careful and owning your story. Not everyone has a right to that. It's a very personal thing. It's a personal journey. And we've all taken different routes to get to be a place where we are more out and that's fine. And if you want to stay in the closet, if you feel safer in the closet, that's totally valid. There's no reason
to come out. If you'd asked me a few years ago that I if I would have told anybody that I was gay, I would have said "No, there's no way," and now here I am on a podcast.
That dozens of people listen to.
Well, it's kind of cool like the idea because for me, the closet was so difficult. It's really hard. But it's cool looking retrospectively to see that while I was there, I was doing things to like, become more aware of myself and others and I was kind of like learning coping mechanisms and ways to connect with people and educating myself on people's stories. And so in a way like that safety net of the closet, looking back, actually prepared me to come out.
I think he's that doing super well. I feel that my own journey as well.
Definitely, I just wanna say something selfishly. So like I said before, you don't owe anyone any explanations about your life. I just wish that everyone would just come out right now. So that we could just normalize the experience even more. And I've noticed this this trend, and this is really reductive. But I've seen this pattern of LGBTQ Latter-day Saints, really struggling with their identity, trying to figure out who they are, and also being
active in church. And as they become more okay with who they are, then they often step away from the church. And so as they come out, people see them also stepping away. And so then members who aren't familiar with the LGBTQ experience, will say, "Oh, coming out is like leads to people leaving the church," when they missed this whole journey of self-discovery and, and being okay with who you are.
It's so eternal.
Yeah, exactly. And I just wish that we could bring more people on the journey with us. And I'm not saying that that's an easy thing, or something that everyone should do. But, but I just wish more people could could be part of part of the journey with us,
That is so important, like, click the little back button a couple times and listen to that again, because that's so important. And that's obviously one of the reasons why I wanted to come out so publicly.
Yeah, but the point, the point is, if you're in the closet, there's a lot you can do, you know, like educating yourself, you know, doing the same thing a straight ally would do. But I also think there's there's a lot of power in being able to share your experiences what when it's the right time, and when you feel safe to do so.
Yeah, I will say that, though I was able to feel like I was making a difference and growing while I was still like, half and half out. Since coming out my opportunities to build bridges and, and like create healing and understanding about this topic have greatly magnified, like way more. So I think while it is possible to be an ally from the closet, it is much more effective to be out.
Well, and I think it's important when you do feel safe, if you get to that point to be out to help people realize you're still the same person. I think so many times people think of people as "other" because the people they know that are queer are in the closet. Again, don't come out unless you're ready. Unless it's the right thing for you. I felt very led in my
journey. I felt the spirit in very strong ways to do certain things, including being like "Okay, Ben, I think I'm ready to do this podcast."
We first talked about this, like back in March, right?
Yeah.
And it's now August.
Yeah. And it's funny, right before COVID I got a blessing that I finally was like, "Oh, it's okay to be gay." Like I was wrestling with it that recently, and wrestling with some pretty serious, serious suicidal ideation. And but now, just being led to this place where you can be more out and safe, people can realize you are still the same person, nothing's changed. You're just letting them in. I know, sometimes people like that idea
of "coming out." But more "letting people in" to know who you are, you're not hiding this part of yourself, you're not cutting off this piece of your life from the rest of yourself.
That's cool. You just reversed coming out!
Oh, I stole from someone else. I'm not that original.
But I think this idea of like, if you're not ready to share your story, we can elevate the stories of people who are sharing
Like sharing podcasts or books that are being written.
Thank you so much. She's talking about "Questions from the Closet" and "Without the Mask."
But also Charlie and I talked about this a number of times, it was important for us to have guests on so that we like we're not the only voices who are talking because we want to be like we want a lot of stories to be shared. And even if you're in the closet, you know, I have straight friends who share my story. They share other people's stories. And as we as we elevate more and more stories, and people get to be aware of more and more perspectives, then that's how hearts and minds are going to
change. I can't remember the exact quote but there's--I'm paraphrasing--but like it's hard to hate someone up close.
Yeah.
Hard to hate someone you know or something like that. And so the more that people can get acquainted with LGBTQ Latter-day Saints, the better we're going to be as a people.
And I just kind of want to tack on real quick that that being LGBTQ is not embarrassing or "less than." I don't know why I want to say it because I was thinking about like my brother, how like he is pretty vocal now that I've come out and he shares my, my podcast and my book and does a really great job being an ally and he's straight. And I was like, this was this was honestly my thought process. I'll just be completely honest. I was like, "Yeah, he can do it. And it's easy for him because
he's straight." Like, and like there was almost a little bit of jealousy even internally now. From me two minutes ago, and I was like, "You know what? No." Like, it's totally like there's nothing embarrassing about being gay.
A lot of times you end up feeling vulnerable though because the way society can stigmatize it the way that sometimes church culture may make you feel a little "less than" when the culture is so heterosexual family focused. And you're not maybe quite sure where you fit in the plan of salvation or in the church. And but that doesn't mean that you are, you aren't "less than." You're the same human being that anyone else is.
Yeah, I just wanted to drive that point home because like, it caught me. And I was like, well, I thought I was over that. But but like, you're not, you're not broken, you're not damaged. You're not defective. There's nothing wrong with you.
Thank you for saying that. I think that's really important to remember, and I think that's one thing that helped me being in the closet was getting to know others and like, they're not "less than" because they're gay. Actually, I think they're even cooler because they are because they've had to wrestle with some internal stuff, become more self-aware, and just deal with things. And...
You know, I love it. It's so true.
It is interesting. One of the things that really helped me the most was getting to know other gay people, because it was easy to like, hate this part of myself. But then once I got to know other people, I'm like, Oh!
You're awesome!
Yeah. Oh, they're really cool. Yeah. really similar to me. Yeah.
Maybe I'm okay too.
Excellent. Well, Collette, thank you for coming. This was an awesome conversation and thanks for for being open and willing to share more of your story. It's, it's really empowering.
Thanks for having me. I think this is a really great opportunity to be able to help some people and I hope to be a resource now that I am more "out." Feel free. You know how to contact through the podcast. However...
Now's your time to plug your Instagram. I'm @mrcharliebird.
Mine's @collettedalton. I only post my calligraphy stuff there. That's not. But feel free to check it out. Feel free to message. Feel free to--I know Charlie or Ben could pass along any other questions. So ....
Of course.
I'd be happy to be a resource.
We'd be thrilled to do that. And we'll have you on for our next episode. "How can I be an ally out of the closet?"
Sounds great.
I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Thank you for joining us today. If you have enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving us an Apple podcast review. And as always, please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. You're not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.
You have heard three perspectives, and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time...