Welcome to Questions from the Closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.
And I'm Charlie Bird. Each episode we discuss a question we commonly get asked as LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, do you keep your covenants?
Ben and I are not terribly diverse and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both used to have blond hair.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, my hair was natural and Charlie's was fake. So when I was a kid, I just naturally had this really blonde hair, and then as I aged, it got darker and now it's actually reverting back to light again.
It's, it's gray, Ben.
Yeah, well, I mean, gray hair is actually white hair. It's, it just looks gray.
It's peppered. Yeah. Peppered in. I was blonde when I was 24.
What happened?
Back in my wild days. It wasn't even that wild. I just bleached my hair once because I wanted to do it. I wanted to do it for like four years. And then finally I was like, I don't care if people think I'm gay. I'm gonna have Platinum hair.
And straight guys can bleach their hair, too.
That's true. But I just
Or, or guys from the 90s.
Basically, right? Any, anything that was like, off socially, I was trying very hard not to do.
Gotcha. Anyway, and you had blonde hair recently, again?
I did not. I April Foolsed Day, everyone on Instagram, and I posted pictures of like dyeing my hair three years ago. And people were upset. Like, I did not know that people were so possessive over my hair. I was getting like angry messages about how ugly I was with blonde hair. And I was like, thanks.
People are, like you posted some of the reactions that people are insane. I can't believe how mean they were.
Like, it's literally just hair. And also like, it wasn't April Fool's. But my hair did he has to look like that. I was like, okay, so.
So I totally fell for the joke. I was like, Charlie, I told you your hair looked bad when it was bleached. Like, that's what I was thinking. And I was like, I can't believe you did this. But then I was like, Oh, thank goodness.
Yeah. Even for my mom. I was like, Mom, you're so gullible.
Oh Kathy. Kathy. Anyway, now neither of us have blonde hair. But we used to have blond hair. So fun times. So we often have guests on the show. But today we're joined by nobody.
Just us. We're talking about covenants. Kind of a juicy topic.
Yeah. And we try to figure out what the right question was. And we just kind of went with a question that we get asked.
Which is like, do you keep your covenants? Yeah, but it's not like that, though. It's like, do you keep your covenants? I mean, it's always from the from like, a are you a good person?
Exactly.
I'm just like, ooof, so we're gonna unpack that a little bit.
Yeah. Or people who are like, I wish that so and so kept their covenants like you do Ben.
Yeah.
And I don't really like that at all. Yeah. So today, we're talking about covenants.
I have a few issues with this question. Like even beyond just like, the overt judgment that I feel. And I think mostly it's because like, I feel like as a gay person, the only covenant anybody ever cares about that I've made is chastity. And so they're like, do you keep your covenants but what they're asking is, are you having sex with guys?
Right.
And I just feel like that's inappropriate. And also like, it's, it's like, really disappointing to me when people reduce my covenants to sex. Because like, I've made baptismal covenants. I've made temple covenants. I've made priesthood covenants. And like, when you add them all up, there's like, there's like eight covenants there. And then people are just like, Are you having sex? And I'm like, excuse me?
Yeah, I, you know, I feel the same way. I feel like people often like judge my righteousness, which I mean, they shouldn't be doing anyway. But based on whether or not I'm having sex, like they look at the law of chastity as like this, like this overarching covenant to one like, wondering if I'm keeping that covenant or not.
Well, the thing is, I feel like people view the law of chastity as whether or not you are gay and having sex. Does that make sense?
I mean, I don't think it's quite like that. I mean, I think people still wonder if straight people live the law of chastity.
Yeah, yeah, that's true. But like, like, there is no way for, I guess I'm saying that like, straight people have a way to like, keep the law of chastity according to like, views while having sex. Like if you get married, straight people can have sex.
Oh, of course. Yeah. Yay. Yeah. Well, you know, as I thought about this, and you
So it's just like, I don't know, like, like, it's really interesting to me that we're in a culture where other people are like (a) where other people are asking people about their covenants that aren't like, ecclesiastical leaders, or like giving a temple recommend interview, but also that it's just so like, I don't know, I just like I always get so mad when people are so interested in my sex life just because I'm gay. And I'm like, your interest is awry because like, I am a vi
gin. So like, yeah, I'm keeping know, prepared a little bit for today's episode, I was like, wondering, like, you know, I just like reviewing, like, what covenants I have made, and the ones that mean the most to me, and when we get baptized, you know, as it talks about and Moza 18. And when Alma explains the baptismal covenant talks about that will mourn with those that mourn and comfort those that stand in need of comfort and bear one another's burdens that
they'll be light. It talks about being a witness of God at all times and all things and in all places. I love that, like I love, like those promises that we make. And then you know, of course we we promise that we'll take upon ourselves the name of Christ and keep God's commandments that we'll always remember him. And, and I just love that stuff. Yeah, like I think those are really important things. And I think it's too bad when people just like, wonder like who you're having sex with?
Yeah, I appreciate that you said that, Ben, because I think about this a lot like, my baptismal covenants are the first ones that I made and are that like, that's how you enter the gate to eternal life through baptism, and the receiving the Holy Ghost, and that's where conversion begins to happen. And I think sometimes just naturally in LDS culture, we talk about covenants as if it is chastity, as if like temple covenants are marriage and chastity and or that temple covenants are the
only covenants. And we overlook baptism, confirmation, being ordained to the priesthood. Even within the temple, there's obedience and sacrifice and consecration. So there's all these beautiful, beautiful
covenants that we have. And I think I've even been guilty myself in the past of like, worrying so much about covenants in the covenant path and focusing so much on chastity that I'm overlooking all the really beautiful things I've promised, that fits so well into my life and who I am, regardless of like sexual status.
Definitely, yeah, I was, you know, as we talk about, like temple covenants, I was worried that some people might think like, it's not okay to talk about this stuff. So I actually printed out something from the church's website. So there's lots of great stuff on on the temple on the church website. And it says this, it says in conjunction with these ordinances mean the ordinance of the initiatory and the endowment says you will be invited to make specific comments with God.
These covenants include the law of obedience, the law of sacrifice, law of the gospel, the law of chastity, the law of consecration. In return, God promises wonderful blessings in this life and the opportunity to return to live with Him forever. Yeah, yeah. Can I say something about the law, about the law of consecration?
Yeah, please.
So they also have like some general authority quotes to go along with each covenant to like, explain what what they mean. And there's this really beautiful quote by elder Christofferson is okay, if I read it?
Yeah, of course.
It's like I'm teaching Sunday school now. This, thi from Elder, Elder Christoffer on. He said, "Our life on ea th is a stewardship of time and choices granted by our Creator. he word stewardship calls to ind the Lord's law of consecrat on, which has an economic role but more than that is an appli ation of celestial law to life here and now. To consecrate s to set apart or dedicate som thing as sacred, devote
to holy purposes. True succes in this life comes in consecr ting our lives, that is our time and choices to God's pur oses. In doing so we permit him to raise us to our highest desti y." And I like the idea th t like the law of consecration t at we've promised is an invita ion for us to live a celestial l fe right now. And to live a li e that is made holy, by ded cating it to God, and by using e erything that we have to serv God and build up others and to
build his kingdom. And I have a friend who I was talking to onc and she was just really s ressed out about, she was someo e who was like, hard, she had t
ouble asking for help. It just like felt like she had to do al these things and, and be so eone that served everyone and then she had this epiphany at o e point where she said, wher she realized that the law of onsecration wasn't just abou giving everything she had to God, and to those around her, but accepting everything that t ose around her and God ha to give to her. And then sh thought, Well, I can ask for he p, like other people are here t consecrate what the
Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. Thanks for sharing that. I think, like, for me, this this covenant, that the I guess the highest covenant I've made is consecration. And it's so like, the idea of consecrating my life and what I have to build the kingdom of God is so sacred to me. And it's so fulfilling and meaningful to me.
And, you know, it's funny because, like, people, I don't want to over generalize, but like, people have, like, talked to me a lot and come to me concerned and like, "Oh, you came out as gay, and you're not gonna be able to keep your covenants." And I'm like, for me, coming out as gay has been one of the things that has helped me most keep that covenant of building the kingdom of God. Because this is an aspect of who I am. This is part
of me. This is part of my being that I can consecrate to this effort to build Zion and have people see each other and hear each other and know my heart and I'm learning other people's hearts at the same time. And that's why like, a lot of my time and talents and efforts have been through this like filter, I guess, or conduit of my orientation led me to be able to build the kingdom of God in really unique and diverse ways.
And so like, like, for me, my orientation falls so in line and so harmoniously with the covenants I've made.
Yeah, I super agree. Like I said this before, but you know, when I give firesides, or lessons and we talk about same sex attraction how to minister to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints it's like I always end, like I'm bearing my testament, I'm teaching gospel principles. And you know, the main vehicle through which I'm bearing my testimony now is by talking
about my orientation. And by coming out, I feel like I've been able to keep keep the covenant to keep the law of consecration to live the law of consecration in a much higher and holier way.
These are things that I've learned over time. Like, like I said, I used to really get caught up over over covenants and like thinking about the temple. I'm like, I'm gay, I don't fit in like, I can't keep these covenants. To be perfectly honest, like the term or the phrase covenant path has been difficult for me.
Tell me more.
I guess initially, and kind of still, I'm still working through it. I don't want anyone to think that I'm, I've like, arrived at my understanding or testimony. But...
Of course you have you're 27.
I'm 27. And my hair's not blonde anymore. I'm tempered.
What if it goes gray?
I hope I'm still pretty.
I only got prettier when I turned gray.
You look great, Ben.
Thank you.
What was I saying?
You're talking about the covenant path and like how you haven't like arrived and figured everything out.
Yeah. So, so it used to, like, stress me out because it feels like it doesn't allow for a certain sense of diversity within it. Like, like, to me when I hear that I get images of like, beige. Like everyone is the same. It's the same path.
It's the same thing. Honestly, like in the past, and it kind of resurges sometimes I feel like I made covenants, not really knowing who I was, like, like, I went to the temple when I was 19, before my mission, and I like legitimately thought I would be straight in the future. And so like, I made these covenants as one person, as like someone I was trying to be that wasn't really who I am. And so like part of me kind of like resents that To be honest, and maybe that's like, hard for
people to hear. But it's true. That's a thought I've had a lot like, would I have easily made those covenants if I really knew what I was getting in to.
This is what I'm hearing you say, Charlie, you don't really like it when people reduce your covenants to like the law of chastity. What I'm hearing you say is like, you're kind of doing that right now. Like you're viewing the covenant path as marriage.
That yeah, that's what I'm saying right now.
And you're saying that's bad.
Yeah, it wasn't helpful for me at all.
I think you bring up a really good point, like, you know, I think there might have even been a talk at this conference about what the covenant path means. But I might have been tired and missed it.
Yeah, there was. I just I listened to it on the way here.
Actually, what was the, what does it say?
So it was Elder Christofferson. And honestly, most of it was like about baptism and following the Spirit. And it's funny because, because to be perfectly honest with you, conference was Sunday, this has been very recent. I was watching it. And once this talk opened as the covenant path, I kind of just like muted out, because I was afraid there was gonna be something that like, hurt my feelings. And that I didn't want to deal with now. And I was just like, I'm just gonna mute. But we're recording
this today. So I looked at it. And it was just interesting to see that, like, I expected it to be all about marriage, and exaltation. And it was really about the importance of baptism and following the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Again, like, like, I'm just saying, like, I'm guilty of this all the time reducing the covenant path to chastity and marriage when the covenant path is becoming a child of God like becoming Christ-like.
Yeah, so like, even if I had gotten married when I was 23, like I expected, then it's like, the covenant path is done. Like I still have a whole lifetime of covenants to live and keep so that I can strive to be like the Savior.
Yeah. So Ben, you know how we have this thing about like, personal revelation?
Well, I mean, we have a but it's kind of like a true principle. So right. It's not like our thing.
But I feel like every podcast comes back to seeking revelation like personal revelation for yourself. And the way to reconcile faith, sexuality, allyship anything, is to just like, go to God, and be led by the Spirit. So in this, this talk that I was mentioning from this past General Conference, I'm going to be like Ben and teach Sunday school again.
Please do.
And also read a quote from Elder Christofferson. So here we are
Shout out to D. Todd today.
So it says, "Our overarching covenant commitment is to do God's will, and to be obedient to His commandments and all things that he shall command us." And then it talks about like following the principles and the commandments of gospel is the way to happiness. Like our overarching covenant commitment is to do God's will. And I, again, like it's just so important for me to remind myself that my covenant is to do
what God says to do. Like, if I have faith in God, and I trust the revelation, I receive and act on it. I'm on the covenant path.
Definitely like when like when we're doing God's will for us. Like that's what we promised to do, like we we're promising to, to keep his commandments and his commands is what He commands us to do.
I guess, I guess in this sense, I was just saying how like it used to kind of bother me that the covenant path that phrase like didn't ring diversity through to my ears, but like, if the covenant path really is following God's will. I think God's will for each of us, children will probably be different, like on Earth, we're all in different situations in different phases of life and like, revelation is consistent, but it also changes. Does that
make sense? And so in that sense, there, there is diversity and like, like, even the covenant of baptism is individual. It's not like a collective everyone being baptized at the same time, like, covenant keeping is a one on one relationship between us and God,
like one person and God. And so, yeah, like the covenant path I think sometimes we think of it as like, one road that everyone's walking on, but I think it's like a lot of different roads that all have the same goal of becoming Christ-like and living with God again.
Yeah, I like that. I, I'm trying to think of...
Does that freak you out?
No, it doesn't, doesn't freak me out.
It terrifies you.
No, it doesn't terrify me either. Like, like, I like of course, like love the principle of personal revelation and feel like it's essential and necessary. And the at the same time, like, I've never felt to, like, not live like church teachings as well.
Well, that's I don't think that's what I was trying to say.
Yeah. So as you're speaking, I'm thinking, it's kind of like, Well, whatever God tells you to do do that thing, which I mean,
Well, it but if we truly believed in, like, if you truly have a testimony of the revelation you're getting, isn't that true?
Yeah.
But like, would God command you to go on a path that's outside of God's path for you?
No.
So it like, it feels like anarchy is what you're saying?
Well, I'm just like, thinking about like, 23 year old me hearing this and 23 year old me is freaking out. Yeah. Whereas like, 37 year old me has like, a lot of experience seeking personal revelation, receiving personal revelation, and like living church teachings and keeping what I believe are commandments and, and like a lot of experience, and I feel like 23 year old, 23 year old me would be freaked out by like, "Whatever God tells you do", but I guess like I say all the time.
So yeah, I don't know. I don't really don't know where I'm going with that.
So are you saying that by opening, I feel like this is important conversation. Okay, I want to dig into this because 23 year old me is like, that's, like thrown the phone across the room.
23 year old you it wasn't that long ago.
Okay. Okay. So 22 year old me. So much growth between 22 and 23.
I know. Oh, my goodness, and some blonde hair in between? Well, let me just like explain, like how I am as a person.
Yeah, go for it.
So I'm like a very duty-bound person. And like, I'm a very obedient person, like, I'm a rule follower, like if there ever was one. And I remember when I was when I was 30, and dating Jordan. And I was just like, I need Jordan in my life. He'd like, broken up with me, because I like wouldn't be in real relationship with Him. And I got in my car in Arizona, and drove up to Utah to like, tell him that I changed my mind. On the drive. I was like, Okay, how can I keep Jordan in my
life? How can I keep him in my life. And what I had figured out was, like the wording of the, of the law of chastity that I had promised in the temple wasn't gendered.
Right.
It was just that I could only have that. So it didn't specify a gender because it was to a group of people like men and women in the group. So I was like, "Okay, if I'm married to Jordan, then I'm not breaking that covenant. And, but the church might disfellowship me and I will be able to hold a call and or have a tub recommend, but I've gone to the temple more than most people in their lives, and I've served
plenty and can keep serving." So I was like, as long as it so the church might say, this isn't okay. But with God, I'll be okay. And so that's how I worked that out in my head. That ended up not being the right thing for anyone involved in the situation. But that's kind of how I worked it out. And it was very important to me that I was like, following like, the letter of the law that I had made with God, even if it like wasn't okay with like, what the church was
teaching. Okay, and that was like, a really like, odd thing for me to do like that is really not characteristic of like me. Like, that's not really how I how I am typically, like, usually if there's like, something you're asked to do, you do that thing? And I do it.
Right.
So I guess what I'm getting with this is that Ben was like, so scared of being alone forever, that I was like, trying to like, do anything I could to like, keep this person in my life.
Yeah.
But then when I like actually like prayed about it and thought about it. I didn't do that thing. So I guess...
Well, I think the difference there is where it's coming from, because that was coming from you, not from God. And then when you went to God, you realized that that was coming from you. And so you didn't do it.
Right. Right.
But Had it been coming from God, I feel like you would have done it.
That is true. So, so here's, here's where, here's where I'm going to get into I'm still working it out in my head. I feel...
This is a juicy episode.
...like personal revelation for me, like there are things that happen in the church that like really tick me off. That really upset me. And yet as I like, seek personal revelation, I feel called again and again, again to live church teachings. And so I do that. And so like my history as a human being has been as I've sought God's will for me, it's to live church teachings. But that doesn't mean I'm just like doing it willy nilly, or like, because I'm supposed to like, it's very
much. It's very personal for me. And so I guess this idea of like, like God telling, like telling me like me, Ben, to do something that would like, take me out of church teachings just feels kind of antithetical to my life. I'm not saying that's not possible, but it just, it just is kind of, like hard for me to wrap my head around, like now to actually sit down. Think about it.
Yeah. Well, I think of like, like, John... Which one? Gustav Rothel? Oh, yeah. And like his story, and I don't know, if we can just like, pull his story into this conversation.
Well, well, I feel like, like,
It's funny that we're recording this conversation because like, this is like a conversation that me and you would actually have like, this is, this is not a clean conversation. Like this doesn't have ribbons and bows on it. But like, you know, because because isn't that what happened to John and his husband?
Yeah, I know, literally dozens of people who feel who felt like called by God to be in same sex relationships. And I don't doubt that revelation.
Right. So like, in a way, is it like, can they still be on the covenant path? If they are, like being faithful to their partner and abstaining from sex outside of marriage with whom they're legally and lawfully wed?
Yeah, I mean, it's not for me to say like, who is and who isn't on a covenant path, right. But I feel like if I received personal revelation to be in a same sex marriage, I would believe that I was on the covenant path.
Me too. And as scary as that might be to someone. I'm not scared of that anymore. Like, I would have been terrified by that. Like, like, if former me could hear me saying that right now. I would, like I said, like the phone would now be destroyed, thrown across the room and then hit with a hammer. But it doesn't bother me anymore, though. Because like, I trust my revelation. And I have seen that like, by giving myself options, I don't feel stuck anymore.
Like, it's amazing. It really all comes back to personal revelation and agency. By seeking God and realizing that I can do whatever I want, then it makes choosing what God tells me so much easier, because then I don't feel forced down the path. Like, for me, I would say, like, if I'm feeling stuck, as I'm, like, on the covenant path, I would have to look inside and say, am I really on the covenant
path? Because I believe that the path to eternal progression should be, like mortal progression, and that it should feel like synthesised and fluid. And so like a covenant path that I feel stuck on, doesn't really feel God-given. Does that make sense? And, and the one I'm on, I really liked that you pointed out and specified that like, it is not our job to determine who and who is not on a covenant path, except for ourselves. I Charlie Bird and the steward of my own covenant path with God.
Like, I feel like, if I feel like I'm on the covenant path I am. You know waht I mean?
I don't think it's quite that simple. But
You don't think so?
Like, if I think I'm keeping my covenants I am,
Like, if I truly believe if like, my whole soul is converted to my covenant path then I'm on it, right? You disagree with this.
No, well I know you well enough Charlie to know that you wouldn't do anything that you didn't believe was the right thing. Like, like you are, you are a very, like congruent and authentic person.
Okay. Thanks. That's a really nice compliment.
It's true. Yeah. So I don't doubt what you're saying. I just, I just kind of feel like that, that one statement seems simplistic.
Well, we're, we're working out the kinks here.
Can you just share some stories that that might feel that just kind of feel relevant right now?
Yeah, please.
So I don't think I've shared the story before, probably because it makes me look important. But when I started the Master's in social work at BYU, I had just finished my Ph. D. program in Arizona, and I was really tired. Like, I didn't want to be in school again. And my dream job in the Spanish department at BYU opened up, and my dream had been to work at BYU in the Spanish department for like, the last 10
years. And so like a couple of the faculty like invited me to apply for this position, you know, there was there was no guarantee I'd get it. But But you know, they were inviting me to apply, which was a good thing. And I had, I had lunch with an administrator, friend of mine at BYU. And I was telling her that I thought I was going to quit my social work program, and get the Spanish job. And because I just too tired to be in school, and this is what she
said. She said, Ben there are 100 people who could do that Spanish job and only one person who can do what you're going to do. And you need to be trained to do it. You can't quit your program. And and she was right. Like she was. Yeah, she was absolutely right. And I use my social work skills every single day. Yeah, like every single
day. And so the reason I share that story is like, I really want to consecrate my life to like build a kingdom and do good and there are times when I'd like want to do something that just feels easier because I'm tired. Yeah, but then really wise people have helped me be in a place where I make decisions that are more congruent with with my with my overall overall
goal. And just one more story I remember, right after your book came out, you were kind of overwhelmed and things were like you'd been really busy for a week. And I was like, that's like the one week we didn't have a podcast episode come out because you didn't have time to edit it.
Sorry, everyone.
And, and then you and I like met on my back porch. And we're just like debriefing, like talking about like what to do going forward. And we've been using Richard Ostler's equipment to record up in Murray. And it was a long drive. And it was a hassle. And so I was like, well, I'll just buy equipment. And we went online, and it was expensive. It was and I thought...
But how's the sound quality everyone?
And I thought, you know, like, what is my money for but to do good? And if this will make our lives easier, and make it easier for us to do the podcast then it is worth every penny? Yeah. And so I did it and I didn't regret it and never have and you know, and I basically bankroll this whole podcast, I mean it's not like, super expensive to do but, but I'm like, it's a pleasure to do it.
Ben's my sugar daddy.
Because like, I believe in this, I believe this. And and I feel like this is one of the ways that I can build Zion and consecrate my life. And you know, I don't know what everyone else should do to like, keep their covenants to live the law of consecration, but I really, like want to use my time, my talents and everything that I have to do good and build the kingdom. And, like I honestly like don't think about the law of chastity that much.
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, like, if I was gonna, like, hook up with someone, like who would it even be? I don't even know.
Watch out Ben we're gonna get hordes of emails from potential suitors for you.
We're really not. But it's like, I mean, it's like such a settled thing for me. Like, it's, it's just like, I'm just like, so settled. And like, that's not what I'm gonna do that it's just not a problem.
I think that's simplistic too, though, because there's so many people that aren't. And I feel like the listenership most of them aren't settled in their path. And so I don't know, I feel like that's coming from a place of being 40 and having a ton of resources to figure this out.
Yeah, definitely. Like, I'm a lot farther down my life path then a lot of the listeners. Yeah, and I don't want to say that, like, it's always been an easy thing. So but like, this is where I am now.
Can I read a quote from the Prophet?
Yes.
Can I Ben? Is that ok?
Yes.
Okay, so Russell M. Nelson said, "Wherever you are on the covenant path, even if at this moment, you are not centered on the path, I promise you that if you will sincerely and persistently do the spiritual work needed to develop the crucial spiritual skills of learning how to hear the whisperings of the Holy Ghost, you will have all the direction you will ever need in your life." And that's what I was trying to say. Like, when things got messy, like this is exactly
what I'm trying to say. Because like, if you sincerely and persistently do spiritual work, to develop this crucial spiritual skill of hearing God's word for you, and then acting on it, like, to me that is the covenant path, to me that is being led by the Spirit, that is
the direction I will need. And, and I've felt that and honestly, like, I don't want it to be like, I'm so great, but like, I've worked really, really, really hard to develop my spiritual skill set, and really try to understand the way I feel the spirit and how I receive answers, and seek those and be really sensitive to like, what I feel is right and wrong. And I feel like like, hopefully it continues. But I feel like I've developed a pretty good sense of
what's right for me. And so maybe that's why it's more simplistic for me too just like, on...
Because we've been around a while?
Well, just because we've tried, you know, we've just been like praying and like, I think if you're earnestly seeking to find your path, you're going to find it.
And what I got from that quote from President Nelson, it sounds like what he's saying is, if you're not living the law of chastity, but you're mourning with those that mourn, and comforting those that stand in need of comfort, like and keeping that covenant, then that's helping you move forward
on the covenant path. But if you're, if you're married and sealed to someone in the temple and living in the law of chastity in that way, but you're not consecrating your life to build the kingdom, then you can move forward with that covenant. And, and what I'm hearing him say is like, it's not about perfection, it's about doing the best you can with what you've got.
Right. And it's not even like, like people say, it's not about checking boxes, or it's not like building blocks. It's not like in order to mourn with those that mourn. I have to also, I don't know, it doesn't make sense. Like there is a lot of interrelation between them because it's just like, being Christ-like but like, I feel like someone can be like working through chastity issues and also, like, be obedient in other areas or mourn with those that mourn, and be comforting and
like seek Christ. You know?
Definitely.
Like we act like if you're not fully keeping one covenant like, and actually I feel like chastity is the only covenant there is that people say like, you're either keeping it or you're not because everything else is so ambiguous, like, are you mourning with those that mourn at 100% capacity?
Obviously.
You know what I mean? And so it's it's like, we hinge on this, like, yes or no to sexual intercourse. When like, like, that's not like covenants are, like, so robust and beautiful and like, grand. And it's just like, ugggh why do we do this?
Yeah, you know, I actually spent a couple of years pondering this, where like, because to me, like, as a single person the law of chastity is don't do this, or this, or this, or this. And I didn't like that, like this law of chastity was like, about not doing things, right.
Every other covenant is about doing things.
Yeah. And then I've talked about this before, but I ended up like, spending a lot of time in the temple and looking at the language there about, like, what Adam and Eve were commanded. And yeah, and ended up getting to a place where like, to me the law of chastity means that I'm going to be fruitful, multiply and
replenish the earth. And long story short, like what that means to me is like replenishing the earth means like, replenishing God's children and like, being a light to those around me, and like, hoping that every person I interact with leaves feeling that they were that they were renewed, refreshed, replenished, because they got to interact with me,
right? And like, to me, like, that's how I actually live the law of chastity, which might sound weird, but like, that's how it worked out in my head.
Oh no, I think that's beautiful. And it's like, keep on a path that is making you fruitful and connect with other children of God and growing like, absolutely. Like, I want to be on that path I want to be ever improving. And that's really nice, Ben.
Thank you.
Good job. I was also thinking about like, part of the covenant path is like gathering with covenant people and associating with other people who are making God a priority in their life. And I think there's a lot of power in that too, that we, we don't allow, I don't know if I should say this, because I feel like this podcast is already messy.
Just say it.
But maybe we should just make a mess here. Like, so,
Because you'd done all this work. so I like started coming out to myself during the period of time, when there was the church policy. Basically, the if, like,
I was like, I've been working for two years, like if you're in a same sex relationship, you're like, subject to excommunication. And since then, like terms have changed, policies have changed. But like, I was watching everyone, I'm like, Okay, everyone I know, that is gay, or same sex attracted, like, generally ends up in a same sex relationship at one point. And so like, I just became hyper stretching my soul to somehow be okay with being excommunicated. focused under this policy with
excommunication. And I, like prepped for like two years, for me being excommunicated. Like, I honestly thought it was inevitable, because I just like figured it would happen to me whether I liked it or not. And, and that was like, honestly, that was horrible. Like, it was really difficult. And it was just a lot of, actually, that's one of the reasons why it was so hard for me when the policy was rescinded. And everyone was like, very excited about it. I was like... Anyway...
That sounds very dramatic.
Yeah, it was. It was hard. But the thing is, like, I believed in the power of gathering with covenant people. And so I was kind of like, planning this life for myself, like, what's my life gonna look like as an excommunicated member, because that's, again, like, I don't think that's gonna happen anymore. But at that point in my life, I was like, that's where everyone else's
life has gone. And I was like, I still want to gather with the covenant people, I want to fill my life with people who put God first and see the value in being Christ-like, and taking upon them the name of Christ. And even myself, I was like, I'm going to take upon myself the name of Christ, like, I hope I always do that. And I can strive to be that type of person and develop those characteristics. I feel like I have so much more of a robust view on on what it
means to seek God now. And, and I think wherever you are, whatever your life life looks like, if you're married, if you're in a mixed orientation, marriage, if you want to be celibate, forever, if you want to enter in a same sex relationship, you can always see God and, and work to keep covenants that you've made.
Yeah, Charlie, what I'm hearing you say is like to you, like the root of your covenants is, is keeping the commandments that God has given to you and acting in a Christ-like way.
I really love the Book of Mormon. And I think that's one of the main reasons I love it. Because the theme of it is moving through the wilderness and trusting God and, and keeping commandments and having that, being led to a promised land. I think that happens so much and like even probably the most dramatic version is Nephi whose family is uprooted and goes through this wilderness and they have to do a lot of things that they don't really
understand. And like these covenants or like these commandments that they were keeping weren't even really moral. Like, it wasn't like, don't have sex, it was like, build this boat to be led to a promised land. And he was, like, he followed what he knew he should do and was led to a promised land. And then that reminds me of the story you just told of like, staying in this master's program after you already had a PhD in something different.
It was exhausting.
Yeah. Like, like, I remember talking to you. And it's funny, cuz you're like, this program is so hard and like, almost destroyed me. And I'm in the same program right now. And I'm like, really, Ben? Not that hard.
I was exhausted.
Like, you had a lot of different things going on in your life, you know, and I'm just smarter than you. I'm just kidding.
I just did more homework than you did.
That's probably true. But like, you kept that commandment, like, like what you felt was right for you. And you were led to a promised land where now you can help a lot of people and use those skills that you've gained to keep your covenant of building the kingdom of God. And like establishing more, a more beautiful Zion. And that's why I love the Book of Mormon. But you know what I'm saying, like, like, that is the
theme. Like, I'm hoping this message conveys and with all of like, the mess and like the gymnastics and like, vernacular that we're trying to, like, get around to like, like, that's the point I'm trying to make, like, keeping the commandments leads you to the promised land. And like, that is like the root of our gospel is centered in Jesus Christ. And, and I really believe that no matter who you are, there's ways to do that and improve.
Yeah, yeah. As you're talking, I was thinking about, you know, the saints and Nauvoo and before they went west, they there's this meeting the temple and everyone there covenanted that they would make sure that everyone who wanted to get to Zion would get to get there, and they wouldn't leave anyone
behind. And so what that meant was all along the way, like in Iowa they, you know, they had these way stations where they like, built houses and planted crops that they wouldn't even get to eat, because of the people that were coming after them. And, you know, I think, you know, as I, as I like, try and think about, like, what does it mean to me to, like, live my covenants, that means, you know, binding myself to God, and binding myself to those around
me. And, you know, when we are connected with God, and when we are deeply connected with, with the people in our lives, like that is like that is what the
covenant path means to me. And, you know, I hope that that we can, that we can, you know, plant some crops for people that come after us and send some, send some wagons back to people who who need some support, because, you know, there are a lot of people who are, who are struggling and suffering and, and, you know, for me, and I think for many people keeping our keeping our covenants means that we're going to help those people who, who want to come to Zion who don't quite have the
strength to get there on their own.
Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Ben, do you keep your covenants?
I try my very best to thank you, Bishop and Stake President in my temple recommend interview. I really go because the question that temple recommend interview, I believe is do you strive to keep your covenants?
Really? Ben like, wooo, we should have brought that up earlier.
I just thought of it.
You see that's much better. That makes me way less stressed too.
Because it's not about like, do your don't you? It's "are you doing your best?"
Yeah, yeah. And like, and like, for those who are so curious, like, Yeah, I do. Like I honestly strive to keep my covenants. And and I'm happy and I feel like I have been led to a more Promised Land.
Yeah, I think that's what President Nelson was saying in that, quote that you read that, you know, it's not about how far you are or how well you're doing just, if you're keeping if you're doing your best with the covenants you've made, and like keeping, like one or two or part of covenants, like, that's, like, that's enough like that's
propelling you forward. And one thing my Bishop said, which I really like, is he said, "God doesn't care if you're at the top of the stairs or the bottom of the stairs, he just cares that you're looking up." Yeah, and President Worthen at BYU said something really similar. He said, like "To God, time is irrelevant. And so he doesn't care how far down the path you are, he just cares which direction you're heading."
And I can also like, add a testimony that, that striving to keep my covenants brings me increased peace. And especially in this realm, like, like, even this episode was very confusing and muddled, you know, like, times that by like, 70,000 and then that's my life. You know, like, that's how I feel.
But as I started to keep my covenants, like, I have peace, and I feel like my mind has been enlarged, and so has my heart, that I'm able to understand more fully, who I am, how to fulfill the measure of my creation, what purpose God has for me, and and like I have every intent of always striving to keep my covenants because they're meaningful to me. They're sacred to me.
Yeah, same. And you know, for me, like, I think I was the worst spot when I was myopically ask myself, am I gonna have sex with a man or am I not gonna have sex with a man. Like when I just made it like that the focus of my life like is this is like this is I'm gonna do this or this. That's when things were bad for me. And when I kind of had a broader view of like, what God was calling me to do that's when life got a lot more, a lot more better, more better. mucho
mas mejor. That's when once I got rid of that myopic focus, that's when life got a lot better for me.
Yeah. Yeah, me too.
Thank you for joining us today. If you have enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving a review, following us on Instagram or Facebook at questions from th closet, or sharing this podcas with someone you love. And a always, please remember that w do not represent the Church o Jesus Christ of Latter-da Saints or Brigham Youn University. We're not trying t be prescriptive or tell anyon what to think or what to do
You heard two perspectives, and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questions romthecloset@gmail.com. Until ne t time.