Did pornography make me gay?

did. But it kind of happened organically and ended up I ended up presenting across the United States and traveling to Europe to present to church leadership and members on addiction, presented to at church headquarters and to the mission presidents and MTC presidents through the mission department as well. So it, yeah, it was kind of an interesting experience. But I came somewhat of a armchair expert on pornography and addiction. And it's been a really cool

opportunity. And I've realized there's been a big need to talk about this and study this, especially within the church and community.

minorities. And so they want answers. And so they look to things that they can try and pinpoint, to identify where that may have taken hold. And for many people who even are LGBTQ if, eventually we like, we all have to come to terms with our

sexuality. And there are triggers for all of us, regardless of what our sexuality is, all of us eventually come across some stimuli that starts to play into the narratives about our sexuality, and for many people, if you're gay, and then you see gay pornography, and then it's like, oh, well, this is where it started. It's like, well, no, why did you continue then to choose to seek out gay pornography as opposed

to straight pornography? Like it's not necessarily that it causes that but it can help to identify preferences, depending on what what stimulates you and what you what you choose to continue to look at.

When I'm thinking about like me growing up, I couldn't date I couldn't like a guy I couldn't like explore a relationship with someone because I was a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, right? Straight people can figure it out that way, but gay people like what other outlets are there really, you know, I mean, there are others but like, that is the most common and. Am I making sense?

sexuality. And that, like, for many people, their sexual experience often begins with pornography. And that's what I mean by that not like you start looking at pornography, and then it leads you down this road to all these terrible things. We can talk about that and some of that narrative within our church but the majority of so over 85% of youth in America today are learning about sex through pornography, regardless of their sexuality. So it's not something that that just or, like

out the things that they find engaging, and stimulating, and enticing.

seven. At about 12 or 13, though, he started looking at gay porn, and he's, he's gay, but he likes so if he were to say, oh, well, the gay porn made me gay. It's like, well, you you've probably been exposed, and most people have been exposed to straight porn. At some point like it, it's so common, it's so prevalent that whether it's hardcore, or softcore, porn, like most people have, are exposed to pornography

at some point. But if you're gay, that heterosexual porn may not influence you the same way. Or it may, you may realize you're focusing on only one of the characters and then seek out more content, where there is more of your desired sex.

this or that. And, yes, I do think there's definitely more shame when it comes to sexual minorities and talking about this. Especially like, if you want to go talk to a Bishop, if you want to get help, how do you talk about those types of things without getting into more trouble or outing yourself and especially if you're not ready to do that What resources are

available to you? I mean, even talking to your parents would be much harder if like they start asking questions about, okay, well, like what what type of stuff are you looking for and things like that. So I think I definitely think it does add to the shame. And it becomes more problematic because there are fewer resources for those youth.

Yeah, and I know some people who, you know, they, they were looking at pornography as a as a teen, and they want to talk to the parents about to work to not look at anymore, and which I think is incredibly mature of them and their family relationship that that was even a conversation. And then that's when it came out that he was looking at gay pornography. And that was a very, you know, what wasn't a conversation that he was looking to have at the time.

Yeah, I kind of feel like in a way, the root of this question is based in this idea that pornography changes your sexuality. And that's a message that, to a certain extent, is true, but is often communicated through like religious conduits, that viewing pornography alters your sexuality. It makes you less able to be sexually engaged with a partner in the future. Um, like all of these ways that pornography can change the way

you view sexuality. Currently, in our culture, I feel like the most damaging thing about pornography is the shame that comes with it. I feel very lucky. I have friends who are very open about this. And we've really tried to like take away the the secretiveness...

addicted. I'm wrong. And that creates a shame cycle that compounds just in general, but but also when you add this element of being a sexual minority, of being gay, that that shame spiral can become very intense. And so I don't know, should I talk about my own experience with pornography? Because I feel like yeah, you know, I will, because I feel like this is something that's important to be said. And this is not like, there should not be stigma or shame around this

conversation. Similar to Liam, like, as I was growing up some of my first stimuli to understand my sexuality, my sexual orientation came from images, right? That being said, I was I was very naive. I was a very just like, naive, good person. So I was never really exposed to pornography until I was a little bit older. But I remember the first time that I was exposed and like, didn't turn off like actual pornography. I, when it was over, I became physically ill. For three days. I felt like,

horrible and I was vomiting. I was shaking. I was so embarrassed. I felt so alone. I felt so trapped. I felt so gross. And looking back, it wasn't because it was pornography. It was because it was gay pornography. Other friends I've talked to and they talk about the first time they looked at porn, and they're like, yeah, I felt really guilty. But it was exciting. And, and I kind of wanted to do it again, but after this, lik I was I was retching on the fl

or for like three days. And I j st told my family that I had he flu. And this is something t at like LGBTQ youth, especia ly because I mean, this is he first exposure, that's w at you're going through. So I f el like it's so important t "a" remove the shame and this feeling of I looked at por , so I'm a terrible person. T at's that needs to go first of all, but then this looking a gay porn is worse than looki g at straight porn. That's not true that that's not a thing.

introspecting. And looking into what it means to be me and coming to understand my orientation and how I view the world. Part of that, in my case, specifically came through working with a therapist. I would never say that I've ever, like been addicted to pornography, but there have been times when I've viewed it more. But usually, based on my mental stability. Right? Like times when I felt incredibly depressed and incredibly isolated, and alone and stressed and anxious.

Those were the times that I would view pornography. And actually it's it was it was a little bit validating. I am currently in the doing a masters of social work at BYU. And in one of our classes, we talked about pornography, and there's this acronym that's called BLAST. The point was that like a lot of times people think they're addicted to pornography, but it's really just a BLAST situation, which is Boredom, Lonely, Anxious, Stressed or

Tired. And so a lot of times when the body wants to look at pornography and does, it's not because you're a bad person, it's not because you have an addiction. It's because you're bored or you're anxious or you're stressed. There's like an unmet need, that's not being fulfilled. And then it's almost like a natural response to the body because the kick you get from porn is almost like an antidote for these feelings. It like kicks back against anxiety, and it kicks back against

depression. Does that make sense? Yes. Oh, 100% agree with with everything you're saying. Yeah. So it's a coping mechanism. I'm gonna rewind a little bit back to some of the things you said. Like, I think, I think it's important. And like, I was also exposed to pornography and continue to seek it out like, and it was something I talked to Bishops about. I went on my mission. And I came back, I'm like, oh, I'm out of the water

with this. Like, I've figured all this, it's like, I didn't see a computer for two years. Like, that's really what that meant. But all of a sudden, I felt like I had figured everything out. Ended up relapsing after my mission. And then really began like, to really work through through that after, but I think one of the most helpful things for me in letting go of the shame was realizing that we are all sexual

beings. We don't really acknowledge that well, within the church, often, when it's like, you know, that's just like a reality, like, we are sexual beings. And so, when I was curious about pornography as a little kid, it wasn't because I was a pervert. It's because I was naturally inclined, like, we are all wired to be curious, to wonder, to want to seek that out to understand sexual

relationships. And that was like such an eye opening moment, like, oh, my gosh, I'm not the only one who was wondering about this stuff. Because like, when when pornography really became a problem for me, it was when I was way late to figuring out all the sex stuff, like my parents didn't really talk to me about it. I was like, always trying to be a good kid. So whenever kids started to talk about things, I

would like, leave the group. And then it got to the point where I was playing, and I like, this is the real story. And I have my good friends gonna listen to this and think like, oh my gosh, it was my fault. I was playing soccer with one of my buddies, and he kicked a ball hit me like, right in the groin. I like fell down and, and he's like, oh, you're not gonna have kids anymore? And I didn't say anything. But I want to like, what the heck does that have to

do with anything? Like I I hadn't yet connected, like, how how testicles were part of that process. And it was like that incident in junior high that made me go home be like, okay, Google sex. And that quickly will lead you down a road with link after link after link and video or image after image, creating like this narrative, but oft... So there's, there's generally a process with how these behaviors develop into a coping mechanism. And in the

worst cases, an addiction. But I think it's important to note just going into this, like, it's estimated that a less about, like nine to 11% of people who are struggling to overcome pornography actually would meet criteria to be considered addicts in their behavior. The vast majority of people who are still struggling with it, still trying to work through it, and want to leave it behind or whatever they're not, they don't

meet those criteria. But they think because they're struggling to overcome it or leave it behind they're an addict, because we have this idea that addiction just means trying to stop something and not being able to easily. But if that's the definition, we're all addicted to about 1000 things including eating unhealthily, exercise, poor habits and everything. So again, there's a difference between a poor habit which is a behavioral thing we

develop, and an addiction. There are several other factors that go into what makes someone an addict beyond having a prob--like having a continuous problem. It starts, like they it gets, increases in frequency, or intensity over time. It starts to impact their ability to function in everyday life. They start to socially isolate. So there are all these other things that also get packed into that.

But when we use addiction to talk about both of these cases, it does a disservice to the vast majority of people who don't fit into that and often don't seek out help because they may think that's not me. So maybe I don't need help because I I haven't killed 50 people like Ted Bundy did. And I think that affects the narrative too, about being a good or bad person when every six months that Ted Bundy video makes the rounds.

Like, like, we should not be getting our information on pornography from a sociopath is what you're saying. No, you're good. I have just a quick thought. On a less maybe No. I think because within the church, we believe that pornography is harmful to people, we we like the ideas of

evidence that affirms that. And so again, about every six months that video pops up that makes the rounds, at least on my dramatic note, I know a lot of people who are like, well, if a Facebook and ends up leading to these long conversations with people about Ted Bundy is not the norm. Like, just because his sexual experience maybe began

with pornography. That doesn't partner is viewing pornography, the relationship will end up in mean that's what caught like being candid and a bit morbid ike if pornography turned every uy into a Ted Bundy there would e no women left. Again, it's orry, this is probably getting oo morbid now. But.

want. I think there are definitely like, ways that it's harmful. But I think if we tried to demonize it so much, in order for people to never go there, then the people who do go there, which as you said Liam, like statistics show that 85% of people, that now we have 85% of people who think they are a disgusting person who is going to be a murderer and end in inevitable divorce. And that is so much pressure to put on someone that's doing a pretty natural thing.

infidelity. Like, so many people want to make pornography, the thing of blame. It's like, no, because for every one guy that cheated on his wife, there are 300 men in Elders Quorum, who are trying to figure this out whether with their partner or not, maybe they're afraid, but at least they're not cheating. They're, they're trying to do good. They're trying to be faithful, while working through this. Yeah, I had a I had a client once who I actually had a number of clients who came in to talk

about pornography issues. And, and oftentimes, they would say things like, you know, I'm here in therapy, because I'm addicted to pornography. And they would say, I'd ask them, you know, we talked about their viewing habits, and they would say, like, they looked at pornography once a month. And you know, and that's not a lot, you know, like the criteria you gave for, for addiction, Liam that does not fit into that. But you know, still it was it was unwanted

use. And I and I had this one client share this really beautiful story about how he and his wife had worked out that if you ever looked at pornography, that he would tell her immediately or if he was tempted to to talk to her about it. And the very first time he told his wife that he had been looking at pornography, and it was gay pornography, her response was, I am so sorry that you are

hurting. I thought that was a really beautiful way to you know, like Charlie was saying, you know, when someone's looking for ways to cope with the that BLAST acronym, what is going on in someone's life? And what can we do to be with them if they're if they're dealing with with stress, or boredom or loneliness or anxiety in ways that they don't want to?

for a while. And then afterwards, I was like, hey, do you feel comfortable like sharing how often you view view pornography, and he's like, like, sometimes every three months, but during finals week, I did it every day. And I was like, you're not addicted. Like you were really stressed for a week and sometimes you're tired. You know, and so and, and like I actually calculated how much of the year he spent viewing pornography. And it was like 0.00002% of his life was spent.

But he was he was putting so much focus and emphasis on on these 10 to 20 minute periods where he was doing something that didn't align with his values. And he was putting so much mental force into that tiny amount of time that it was consuming his entire life. And he convinced himself that he was a bad person. As I think back on my own experiences, the times when I've, like, for lack of a better term felt like I was

struggling with pornography. And again, it was like, it was like similar, because I was feeling incredibly stressed and anxious and depressed. And as soon as those needs were met, I didn't even think about it. And it wasn't even a thing. It wasn't even on my register.

recipe gets even bigger. Another thing that I often see and have looked into a little bit is this idea of like, basically, what's on your mind, like I said, my friend was was focusing so much on pornography. The way the brain works and Liam, you'll know more about this than I do so maybe you can kind of back me up or tell me I'm wrong. But if you're thinking, I'm addicted to porn, don't look at porn. Don't look at porn. Don't look at porn. The brain is reading that

as porn, porn, porn. And then you're going to be more likely to look at porn, because so much of your like, mindset and chemistry is focused on pornography.

that's so much stress. How much healthier would it be if the reaction was, this is a decision I made that doesn't align with my values and it may be because I was lonely, or tired or hungry, I'm gonna move on from this because I realized that that's not really adding value to my life? Then all of these feelings like these, these adversary-driven feelings of shame and darkness, you're just like, removing them from the picture and how much more clearer can, can you see if all

of that mess is gone? You know? Yeah, I love I love the way you said that. You know, I think we within the church give pornography more power than, than most things, by the fear we even have about talking about it. Like even and and that could even be applied a little more broadly to talking about sexuality, but we don't like having to talk about pornography in church. And by by we it's like, it can be a very uncomfortable conversation. And

so often it is. This is something it took me a long time to think about because this wasn't something that I had calculated. But when I started researching pornography, the reason I started like talking to other people about it, I was researching it and then I was in a singles ward of BYU, one of the friends from my ward brought a female friend from our Ward over she was also my friend, but I had a friend Zack who brought a friend over he's like, Hey,

you need to talk to her. I was like, oh, it was like 11 o'clock at night. And I was already in bed, probably. But he I'm like, well, what are we what do we need to talk about? He's like, like, you need to talk to her about pornography. I'm like, this is a weird time for this to be happening but so she likes this guy in the world who is dating someone else. And that's Provo for you. But so but eventually he stopped dating this other girl. And so she got excited. And they went on a

couple dates. Then this boy's ex-girlfriend reached out to the girl in my ward and said, hey, he has a pornography problem. And that scared this friend of mine. And so she's like, oh, I don't think I can date him. And she said this to my friend Zack in our Ward, who then brought her over to my apartment to be like, let's talk about pornography in dating and the church and all this stuff. We

talked for like three hours. And I was shocked at like, how little she knew and I knew I was researching pornography at that point, but it's like, even before I started researching, I felt she had very, very gross misunderstanding about pornography and how it worked even at the most basic level. She was in the ward young, Relief Society presidency. So after our three-hour chat, she was like, I think you need to

come talk. And at the end of our three hour conversation, she's like, this has been so helpful. She's like, I at least feel comfortable, like continuing today and eventually having that conversation, when he's ready, and when we're ready to have that conversation if it gets to that point. But she then invited me to the Relief Society. And then I presented for the Relief

Society. And then the semester ended a few weeks later, so they all move to different wards, then they told their Bishops that I should come and that's honestly, it was all word of mouth.

like, our members smile. They can laugh, through through like, we'd have like a thought we started just doing firesides. And we would smile, and we would laugh. And then the but there were also like, harder moments where you're sharing, like harder things. But it was very real and raw, but it was also based in hope, and joy and peace, like, and I think that's one of the problems when we give pornography so much power, because we make it larger than

the atonement. We eclipse the atonement with this scary thing we call pornography. I was talking to a church leader who was counseling other people about pornography at this point, say, I don't I don't think people can really work through pornography. And I was like wait, what?!? He's like, once, once you're addicted to pornography, you don't get over it. He's like, I think you can with other things. I don't think you can with pornography. And it

was mind-blowing to me. It's like, you you think the atonement stops, like at pornography, like it draws a line. And it's like, this is one hurdle, that if you stepped across the line, you're never going to get all the way back. And it was it was fascinating to me that this was someone who's counseling the youth in the church, many of whom have this problem. And it's like, how is he having this conversation with

these people? But so I think, and I realized, the reason why I ended up with so many opportunities to talk about this was because when we started, I was smiling. I was like, yeah, we're gonna talk about a hard thing. But the reason I love talking about this is because regardless of where you are, regardless of the orientation, the type of content, you're looking at how frequently like there is hope for what what you want, you can achieve. Like, you can have peace. You can have

healing. You can have all of these things. And that starts with stop beating yourself up. Realize that maybe you can't do this on your own. Maybe you need a community. You need to talk to people. You can't do this in isolation, because that's what keeps getting you back to square one. Just the way we talk about it has so much power in the church, and we do so often give it so much more power than it deserves.

wants to talk about this. But then me like, I didn't want to talk about this, like I didn't want to share about what I was throwing up on the floor because I looked at pornography, right? Like, even me, I feel like I have to check myself and be like, you know what, no, like, I can say things. And I'm still worthy. I'm still good enough as a person. And I'm not like scarred or marred societaly because I have viewed pornography in the past, and that I might in the future

right? One thing along the lines of taking a more hope-filled approach I was thinking about this period, like before my mission and through my mission. And when I came home from my mission, I didn't look at pornography at all. And this was like a four year period where there had been no issues like whatsoever. And then I had what I called I referred to as a relapse. And this came at a time when I was incredibly stressed. I had just broken up with a girl because I realized I was

actually gay. I was like becoming clinically depressed. I was in a terrible place, and feeling incredibly like overwhelmed with my life. And I started looking at pornography as a coping mechanism as I was doing like my senior year in high school, when I was feeling nervous about going on my mission because I was gay. Like when things were heavy that's what I was going for. And the first time I quote unquote relapsed my mindset was, oh my gosh, all those four years were

wasted. And I'm exactly back where I was before my mission. And nothing ever changed. And my mission didn't even matter. And I entertained thoughts like that. That's terrible. Like, like, what, why I got to do that to myself, you know? It was like, one mistake doesn't cancel out all the good that you are, or the work that you've done.

And you're never right back where you started, because, like I had more experience and more strength under my belt, and I, like had spiritual experiences and had so many incidents where I was stressed or sad or mad during that four year period, where I didn't turn to pornography as a coping mechanism, which aligns more with my values. And so like, if you it doesn't matter how long you go without looking at

pornography. It matters, like how many times you don't, and, and like you're never right back to where you started. It's never like, well, this thing it got me again. And yeah, like, it's not, it's not like a reset. Like, it's it's more linear than that, like you're farther along in your journey because you know,

align with our values. And when that happens, it doesn't mean we failed, it means that we can look forward. I had I had a Bishop once say that God doesn't care if you are at the top of the stairs or the bottom of the stairs, he cares which way you're looking. And President Worthen at BYU, he said something similar a couple years ago, where he said that to God, time is irrelevant. Like he doesn't really care where we are on the path because time doesn't

matter to him. But what matters is which way we're looking on the path and which we were going. And so if we're if we're taking three steps forward, and one or two steps back, or even sometimes four, or five or six steps back, when we when we're focusing on on moving forward and living according to our values, like that's when God is pleased with us. And when we can be pleased with ourselves. Yeah, I love what both of you

said. And that's actually what the research bears out is that those who, and regardless of whatever addiction it may be, but those who achieve recovery, it's most often, those who try and use like a shame based cold turkey approach fail. They, initially their use decreases, but then over the course of 12 months, we see it like increase back to where it was or even more than before, but people who achieve lasting recovery, it becomes less and less frequent

over time. But if people think they have one slip up or something, and they're back to square one, then they're already like, well, I'm at the bottom so why not like indulge even more? You know? They start to numb out even more, because that makes them feel bad. So then they turn to it more and more. When it's like yeah, like, have slip ups like whatever again, and it does, it depends on what people

are looking for. Not everyone's looking for, oh, I never want to use pornography and things like that it really does depend on your values. But I do think that direction that focus focusing on your success is more than your failures, because we are all still humans struggling with the effects of the fall. And we will continue to make mistakes. And you're gonna be miserable if you spend your whole life focused on the mistakes because they're never all going away. So I love love that perspective.

So from what I've heard you guys say that if there's a listener who is in this, you know, double batch, as Charlie was saying, it's like a shame spiral. What that person could do is open up talk to some trusted individuals about what's going on, and let some people in to what's

happening. And if there is someone in our lives who we might be concerned about, because of unwanted pornography use, we can talk about pornography in ways that aren't filled with shame, in ways that just make it part of a normal conversation and not something that is such a taboo topic.

thing. And if you are a female who's viewing pornography, hopefully we didn't say this in a way that makes you feel like excluded or that all of these things don't apply to you as well.

something. It's interesting, there was a woman, a member of the church who started to question her gender identity, because she was struggling with pornography and all the rhetoric was, oh, this is a men's problem. So she's like, am I like a guy then because I like pornography? There was also a story, a young woman at BYU this was about a decade ago, she was using pornography as an

undergrad student. She'd been exposed when she was a young girl, and had a problem and used BYU's computers to look up pornography while the computers are watching you. So she got called into a dean's office, and they're like, hey. They sat her down. She was a freshman. And she was terrified. She already knew what it was about. But the dean said, hey, some guy has gotten your username and password and is using your account to look at porn. And she was mortified that she didn't

say anything. Like she didn't like, oh, no, that's me like so. It wasn't till a few years later, she was still at BYU. But she was in a Relief Society and they had gotten a new, the Bishop's wife when she came to introduce herself to the YSA Relief Society. She said, like, we know some of you here, struggle with pornography, and we're here to help you. Like we want to help you and provide a safe place for you. And for the

first time in her life. I think she was 24, 25 she heard that she could have this problem too, and was finally able to get the resources and have someone to talk to about it, who like, finally acknowledged women also look at porn. So I think that's such an important point. I'm glad you brought that up, Charlie. Well, it kind of reminds me of I think it's a scripture, Ben you can check me on this, like all temptations are common to

humankind. Like, if you're going through something like everyone thinks that they're the only one but you're not. Like, like life experiences is so much more shared than we think it is. I'm wondering if either of you have any advice on how to support someone who is dealing with unwanted pornography viewing or that like if it hasn't even been brought up? Right? If like a parent raising a child, or a friend with a roommate, like how do you support someone and not

add to this shame? Because I'm thinking, again, it feels a little bit embarrassing, because it's personal. But after this experience, I had that first time that I sought out pornography and just felt sick. I remember before I left my mission, I had a conversation with my little brother. And I was like, whatever you do, don't look at pornography. I'm like, I don't care what you do, but pornography will ruin you. It will mess you up. Don't do it because I thought I was messed

up. Because it had made me sick. You know, it made me ill and made me feel so bad. And so my way of trying to keep him safe from those feelings that I had experienced was to like, be like, never even go there. Don't do it. And then looking back, I was like, oh my gosh, like he was he was a kid like why? Why did I put that on him? That's so, and then and then that said, the precedent that if there ever was an issue, I was not a safe person to talk about it with.

Right? Because I would be shaming and it like reinforced the idea that looking at pornography makes you a bad person. So what can we do to to rid ourselves from that mentality and actually come at it with a more hopeful and effective approach? Well, I think one of the things is like the statistics that Liam was sharing is, you know, the majority of youth and young adults and people are, will be exposed to pornography and view pornography, or have viewed pornography on a regular basis.

That's just something that happens. And so if we can just talk about this with an understanding that this is a common thing that is happening, I think that we'll we'll just that'll that'll change the conversations like Liam said, have them in ways that are hopeful and and not shame based. It's not let's avoid this from happening, but okay, this is going to happen. So how are we going to respond to that?

I 100% agree with that. I love it's like this is going to happen we are we are all going to be exposed to pornography, like within within the church with religious people, based on the most recent data I've seen, religious people and Mormons are no exception. Sorry, not Mormons. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are no exceptions here. I think 94% of Religious men admitted to having sought out pornographic material since they turned 18. So after they turned

18. 85%, or like 83 84%, admitted to having sought it out in the last 12 months, and I think the way we talk about it in the church, so often when we're having conversations about chastity or pornography, we want to make it sound like, oh, maybe one or two of you need this. And one of my favorite things to do when I go to talk to an Elders Quorum or something is kind of dispel that right away by talking about the statistics.

It's not one or two of you need this, it's maybe one or two of you don't need this right now. Like, let's, let's stop pretending most of us are doing okay. And like, I wish, I think another part of it is just being open and honest, as much as we can, as much as appropriate with people we can trust because I think it's creating a space. One of my favorite scriptures is in Moroni 6. And when, it's talking about how they met as a church, and it talks, I mean, I use that scripture all the time as a

missionary. It talks about like they gathered, and they take the bread and the wine to remember Christ or whatever. But then the next line is, and they did gather to meet with one another, and to speak with one another concerning the welfare of their souls. I wish like that was the the culture that we had, where we could bring these problems like that's, that's really what the church in this community is for is to to have those safe places and to be those safe

places. But again, focusing more on I think recovery so often we grew up with it. Yeah, don't do this. Don't do this. Don't do this. And I remember, as a team struggling with this, I got to a point was like, okay, hypothetically, let's say I cross the line. Now what? Like, let's say I already did it. But every lesson was still don't do it. Don't do it. You'll get trapped, instead of like, but if you have, there's still.

variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time.