Welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Charlie Bird.
And I'm Ben Schilaty. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We are not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives.
Today's question is, can I date? Charlie and I are not totally diverse, we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both been in same sex romantic relationships.
Ben why do you put it that way?
Honestly, the reason I say that is that's what it said in the letter from the church Commissioner about the Honor Code, that same sex romantic relationships were against the Honor Code.
I feel like the gross way to say it. Like we've both dated someone.
It's just like very sterile.
It's very sterile. However, there are some pretty
I have never used a dating app. But Charlie has.
That is true. I did the best I could with the knowledge I had.
And I didn't have a smartphone. So...
Really? It was that long ago?
I got actually got, I think so my mom bought me a smartphone, after Jordan, and I ended our relationship. And I think she bought it for me to like make me feel better.
Yeah, I use dating apps for a while when I was dating, but then I stopped, and probably never will again.
Yeah, I often really caution people against dating apps, because people can be really pushy.
Yeah.
And people end up doing things they don't want to do.
That's true. So we like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives on this podcast, but today, it's just gonna be me and Ben, because we feel like this is like cracking open. I've never talked about dating before publicly really ever. And Ben has, but this is kind of like, we figured it'd be good to get like our some of our experiences and stories out first. And then we'll probably maybe have other people on to talk about their experiences later.
Yeah, well, I mean, you you just you have a lot to share that you've never shared.
I have a lot to share that I've never shared.
So this is kind of Charlie's dating coming out.
This is my dating coming out. You got all the tea on my past boyfriends.
I also want to say I'm very impressed with our intro because I did it from memory.
He's doing a good job.
Yeah. So you know, we kind of battled back and forth about like, what the question was going to be because we
Can I be in a same sex romantic relationship? What is it like to be in a same sex relationship? But the question we always get is, can I date? Like, that's the actual question. And you know, we we get multiple, we've gotten multiple emails to the the podcast email about, like, is it okay to date? I feel like people are trying to get permission from us, right, about to date. And I don't want to give anyone
permission to do anything. Like, I don't think that's right to look for us for what's right and what's wrong. And so we're definitely not saying what's right and what's wrong. We're just sharing our experiences.
Yeah, definitely. And I think that being said, like both of us have dated someone and like, at least me specifically, I kind of feel like it was trial by fire. And there were things that I learned that I had to learn. But there were things that I wish I could have had someone to guide me and tell me how to do it a little bit more gracefully. I kind of felt really stupid as I started
dating. And so if I can help anyone, like, I don't know, like, again, we're not trying to tell people what to do, or what's good, or what's moral or what's right for them. But both of us have had experiences. And if anyone else is going to have those experiences, I would rather them have a little bit more advice than I got.
Yeah. And you say like, if someone is going to do this, I was recently asked by a Bishop, like, is it okay, like a YSA bishop. He was like, can my ward members like, date guys, if they're gay men? And and I said I think that's the wrong question. I think the right question is, what do we do when that happens? Because almost I know tons and tons and tons of
LGBTQ Latter Day Saints. And the majority of them end up in some kind of same sex romantic relationship, if you will, at some point, you know, whether it happens on purpose, or just organically, I think, almost everyone's gonna end up in a position where they like someone who likes them back. Right. And people used to say that to me, and I'd be like, no, no, no, but then, I mean, I don't want that to stress
anybody out. But like, most of the time, if you are gay or lesbian, you end up dating someone of the same sex at some point. So another difference would between us is, I never tried to date it just kind of happened. Like I wasn't, I wasn't looking for a relationship. It was just Jordan I met started off being friends. And then that turned romantic. Like it wasn't wasn't planned at all. Yeah. Whereas my dating was very intentional. And I like planned to do it. And when I would start, so.
Yeah. Did you include like your friends and what was happening the whole time? Yeah. So I have a lot to say. I'm not exactly sure where to start. I guess I'll start I actually want to start talking about you, Ben. If that's okay. Like how did you just like accidentally fall into a relationship with someone?
Well, Jordan is very flirty, and he's very funny and clever. And the thing that turns me on the most. I shouldn't say turns me on.
Say it.
The thing I'm most attracted to is like a good sense of humor. And Jordan is so funny. And so we actually had a long distance relationship because I was in Arizona most of the time, and he was in Utah most of the time. And so we we met through my my brother and sister-in-law, and so we just kind of organically became friends. And then we would talk on the phone sometimes, and neither would come out to the other one, but we were kind of flirty. And then a New Year's
Eve, this was New Year's Eve. I don't even know what year it was, I guess it was...
Ben's really old.
I think was probably 2013. We were like texting all day. Well, I first and I liked him when it was over Christmas break. And we've been texting a little bit and then he had to like he was going to a cabin for the evening with with with some friends. And he was like, Hey, I won't be texting you for a while because I'm going to be gone out of service, like okay, whatever. And I missed texting him. And then, like, the next afternoon, I got like, 20 texts from him at
once. And he said, I have a lot of things I wanted to text you about. So I'm just gonna text you as they happen, and I'll send them when I get back. And I was like, I got these like enormous butterflies. I was like, Oh my gosh, this is amazing. And then on New Year's Eve, we were just like texting, like, our new year's resolutions and like random confessions. And the last thing he texted me was, it was like two in the morning. He's like, last random
confession. Ben, I love you. And I wrote in my journal, I was like, I'm sure he meant it in a brotherly love sort of way but it made me feel really good on the inside. And and we hadn't come out to each other yet. And so I wrote this essay that ended up becoming my blog post, like my coming out blog post a year later. And he was the first person I sent it to.
That's so cute.
And so he so I sent it to him. I was like, so nervous, like, he's gonna know, I'm gay. He's gonna know I'm gay. And then he texted back, like five minutes later, I am too.
Then you're so dense. He says confession, I love you. And you're like, oh, we're all brothers in Christ. Well, it's not that I was being dense. It was just like, I, I couldn't like him.
Right.
And I and if you go through my journal, which I assume you wouldn't, but like those first couple days after I'm like, I don't want to have a romantic relationship with him. I don't want to fall in love with him. I don't want to have a crush on him. But I just really want to be his good friend.
Right.
And there was this tension of like, I don't want to like him. I don't want to like him. I don't want to like him. But then I did. And so I got back to Arizona like a few weeks later, and two of my really good friends had started dating over the break. And so this is my friends, Eric and Amy. And so when I got back to Arizona, Eric and I like went on a walk. And he was just like gushing about Amy and ended up getting married later. And so he's just like gushing about this relationship.
And I was like, so happy for him. He was like, so happy. I was like, I have this thing too, that I want to share. And I was like, can I and so fine. I just told him everything that was going on. And he was so thrilled for me just like so thrilled. He's a member of the church. And he is just like, Ben, this is great. Like, I want to know all about what's happening. And, and I was really grateful that like, from almost the beginning, I kept my friends in the loop and what was happening.
Yeah, that must have been really validating. And I feel like it's just much safer. You know, as you're doing something and meeting people, especially like, I was using dating apps when I first started dating, because I didn't really know what else how else to do it. And it was so much better to like, have friends that I would talk to, and like be involved in that process, because it's just
safer. That's honestly a piece of advice I would give is if you're if you're gonna date, I would be out before you start dating. And a lot of people don't actually most people I know, are dating before they come out. And a lot of people like dating is the catalyst for their coming out. And I think that's fine. And but I think the best thing you can do for yourself is to be out and kind of like normalize that experience, because you're just going to be operating in a much healthier space.
Yeah. And I think it's just healthy for all of us to just, you know, share our lives with the people that we care about and trust. And I remember when I told Kevin and Allison that Jordan and I had kissed months later. And I remember like the look of like concern on their face that they like weren't trying to have. But also they're like really like honestly caring about me, just like this, like concerned caring luck. And I was glad that they of course had
their honest reactions. But you know, they were involved in every part of that process. And I was really grateful that I was constantly talking through what was happening.
So my my whole time at BYU during my undergrad, I did not date at all, I wanted to make sure like, I don't know, I just wasn't ready. And also I was at BYU. So it just made sense to not date. And when I graduated, I was moving to New York City. And I wasn't like really preparing on dating ever. However, as I was graduating, and like moving, I just felt like I should. I felt like I
should start dating guys. And I would look at other people in relationships and be jealous of them and be like, I wish I knew that what that was like. How can they can have it but I can't? And just like, I don't know, I just kind of like was feeling gross about being single. So I was really like thinking about this and praying about whether or not I should try to date guys. And I was out to my family and friends and everyone in my life. So I like felt pretty stable and confident. And I felt
like I knew who I was. And as I was praying I felt like I should. And I remember like feeling almost a little bit like confused by that. I was I was like really God like you want me to date. I thought that was like wrong. Because I mean, that's what everyone had told me my whole life. But I really felt like I should. So I ended up moving In New York City, I got my new Ward on the east side of Manhattan. And I talked to my Bishop. And I was like, Hey, I'm new in the ward and like, I'm
gay. And this is kind of what's been going on in my life. And I feel like I should be dating right now. And I'm going to, and I was kind of like, trying to be diplomatic, I was like, but that being said, I'd love to be as involved in the ward as possible, I didn't really know what to expect, you know, it was kind of like fresh start completely. And it was so interesting, because he talked to me and he was like, Charlie, you're 24, 25 years old. And God
trust you. He knows you. I think it's wonderful that you're trying to gain more experience and figure out what this is and how to move forward. And he just gave me some counsel, he was like, make sure you stand in holy places. And as long as you're keeping the law of chastity, then like full fellowship, you can do whatever you want. Like, we're so thrilled to have you in the ward. Regular advice, like, like you would give to anyone. Be smart, be safe, be normal, be prayerful about how to move
forward. That's when I started dating. That's when I started. out. And by like I said, my first approach was to get on dating apps. I quickly found out which ones were, which ones were which.
I've never been on one. But I can tell you.
I feel like that's a separate conversation. But But if you need to know you can email us and ask, which are most safe. Oh, don't don't don't do that. Do not do that. I don't want to answer that email.
I think it's better to not to.
Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say is you felt like, so originally, were saying that you kind of felt gross for being single. But this was about you not wanting to, like you wanted to be in a relationship as you felt prompted to date.
I felt prompted to date. Yeah. And I felt like I needed it. I needed it in my journey to figure out who I was. Because how can I like really understand what it was like to be gay if I never was in a relationship with someone, I say this all the time, I'm going to beat the dead horse that homosexuality is not equal to
sex. Right? So there are elements to relationships that I've never felt or experienced, obviously, physical elements, but then like connection and emotional connection, and having like a romantic partner, and someone who's interested in you, and like, all of those things that people take for granted. I think sometimes in a heterosexual relationship. I want those.
Yeah, it's interesting, because I had dated women before Jordan, because Jordan, I had a relationship when I was like, 29, and 30. So I, I you know dated a lot of people. When Jordan and I started like, being romantic. I was like, oh, my gosh, this is what this feels like. Like, this is why people date. Like, they don't do it because they're supposed to they do because it's wonderful.
Right.
And I had just been dating because I was supposed to. And I remember my roommate at the time, he wasn't a member of the church. And he also didn't know I was gay. And I did not want to have all of these conversations with him. And Jordan and I would Skype all the time. But I didn't want my roommate to hear what was going on. So Jordan would talk and I would just like, type. And and I don't know, this doesn't make any sense. But it was like really cute and really fun. Like, I really loved doing
that. And, you know, I just want to talk about like, you know, you said you felt guided to do this to date. And before Jordan and I had a relationship. So you know, things kind of got a little romantic in January, that October General Conference, before, I was feeling just really lonely and really sad. And just like wondering how I was supposed to move forward with my life, and just like
really seeking for answers. And I just felt so strongly during that general conference that something was going to happen, like someone important was going to come into my life that was going to teach me. And I still believe that I was that Jordan and I were meant to have that relationship. I think that that that was an important part of my process, you know, as we say, all the time, like our journeys aren't anyone else's. But I really felt like I needed to be in that relationship.
Yeah, I learned so much about myself, and about God and about other people as I was dating. And some of those lessons were beautiful and incredible experiences, and some of them totally sucked. So let's talk about them. Well, I must say, so you talked about what you said to your Bishop. So I've only talked to one Bishop about dating and it was maybe two years after Jordan. I was thinking, you know, I, I feel like I'm mature person. I would love to just like, date, but not like get
married. I just would like to date a little bit. So I talked to my Bishop about this. And he said, well, you marry who you date, and if you don't want to marry a man, you shouldn't date a man. And I was crestfallen. Like, I that's not the right word I was, I was ticked. I was really mad. Yeah. Because it felt like he was telling me I had to stay single. Yeah. And that was really painful. And I, you know, process that over the
next week or so. And, and I realized, you know, I wasn't in a place where I wanted to marry a man. Like, that wasn't what I was, but I felt like I should be working for and so I didn't, I didn't and the only person I have ever dated was Jordan. So actually, quick side note, I've actually been on one date with a guy that wasn't Jordan. Have I told you the story?
Yeah, you told me.
So we like met on this gay liars dating Facebook group in Arizona. And we like, I like, commented on something he wrote. And he lived up in Phoenix, which is like two hours away from Tucson. And he's like, hey, if you're ever up in this area, I would love to take you out to dinner and I was like, well just so you know, like I'm not dating, but if you want to buy me a meal. Why not?
Oh my gosh!
I was I was like, I know maybe that was terrible of me. But I was like very clear about my intention.
I hope he listens to this.
And and so I was like, Well, I'm actually going up to the temple because there wasn't a temple in Tucson then. So if you want to meet up after that I'd be happy to and he's like, great. That sounds great. It was a Saturday was like, oh, that Saturday is Valentine's Day.
Valentine's Day date after the temple.
Yeah.
And that's Ben Schilaty.
So he took, he took me out to pizza, like fancy pizza place. And it was it was delicious. But we were talking He's like, so who's your celebrity crush? I don't remember who I said. But he said his celebrity crush was Anderson Cooper. Like, oh my gosh, he likes me because I have parted gray hair.
Did you know that, should I say this? Anderson Cooper slid into the DMS once. What? To my DMs once. You didn't know that?
Because he wanted you to be on his show.
No, he was just like chatting me up.
Oh. That's impressive.
I don't know what his intentions were. No, really. He was just like, congratulations coming out, blah, blah. Let me know like if you need help or anything.
I think the most famous person who's ever slid into my DMs was you.
I was very flattered.
So even though I was like very clear, like, I'm not looking for anything romantic, but you can buy me dinner. As we were like driving later, he like asked if you could hold my hands. And I was like, no, thank you. He like took me to this viewpoint. So we're like standing there, like looking at the view of the city. And he's like, this is wonderful. The only thing that would make it nicer is if I could put my arm around you. And I was like, no, thank you. I was probably
terrible. So that was like the one date I like planned on.
So I have been okay, confession time, I've been on a lot of dates, with a lot of different people. Like the whole time I was living in New York, I got asked out a lot. And yeah, so and that was kind of what I wanted. I wanted to like get experience dating different people. And just like I didn't know, like, I had no idea like what to do or what I wanted. It almost felt like safer to date people at more of a casual level, like getting to know you, rather than looking for like a
boyfriend. So initially, that's how that's how I started. I remember I was talking to Rachel, who we actually just had on the previous episode, my cousin...
Cousin slash best friend.
My cousin slash best friend. And there's this guy that was texting me, he asked for my number. It's weird texting. And he, he asked me to like go out with him on a Sunday evening. And I just felt weird about that. Because one thing about dating for me is because I was kind of like stepping into an area that kind of scared me a little bit, and had always been like, painted as not religious to me and made me like even more religious. Because I was dating I was like, even more church
involved. I was trying to make sure I did a really good job because I wanted the spirit with me. Actually, I'm going to tell this first, Ben called me once when I was in New York. And we were just catching up. And we known each other for like, what, two years at that point? Yeah, maybe a year and a half...
We'd been like friends in person for a year. And then you moved away.
Yeah.
Somehow we ended up like staying in touch.
Yeah.
Which I did not expect actually. I thought you'd just like move away and we would lose touch.
So we were chatting. And I was telling him and I was like, yeah, I started dating and blah, blah, blah. And he talks to me, and he's like, so how's it been leaving the church? And I was like, what? And he was like, you know, like, you're not going to church anymore. And I was like, where did you hear that? Like, who's telling you this? Like, I'm second counselor in the Elders Quorum Presidenc . He was like, well, I ju t figured that you're datin , you're not going to chur
h any more. And I was really, I as hurt by that. And I was li e, shocked and disappointed. An I was like, Ben like, you kno me. Church is important to m . And like I envision a lif in the church being invo ved in church, no matter if I'm ingle, or with a man, like that s just like a part, like, my s irituality is something that
I always plan on. And it was ust really interesting to me t at like, even someone who real y knows me, and I have like been a part of my gay jour ey to that point, still, like none of us are absolved from living in this idea that it's one or the other. Like, even Ben, even me, sometimes we get aught up in that mindset.
Yeah. And like, I apologize.
I forgive you.
I didn't mean to make so many assumptions, but I just, I don't think I'd really known many anyone, or many people who dated will staying in the church, and most people while they dated, they would like take a break from the church at least.
Right. And I will say that, like, my geographical location allowed me to do that really seamlessly because my Bishop was supportive, everyone else in in church was like, so supportive. I, down the road, I ended up dating someone for a while, and I took him to church a few times with me, and everyone just loved him. And it was a wonderful experience. But I'm gonna backtrack to this guy asked me out for a Sunday and I called Rachel and I was like, hey, like, this guy asked me
out. And he's cute. And like, it's, we seem to like be connecting well, but I feel really weird because it's on Sunday. And I was like, I know that's dumb, because like, I'm going on a date with a guy. And so like, maybe I'm already breaking a rule, but I feel weird about doing that on the Sabbath, which is a day that I usually try like keep holding and observe. And she gave me
some incredible advice. She was like, Charlie, why would you do anything differently because you're dating guys, as you would had you been dating girls? Or like, if your brother was dating someone, like, why don't you hold yourself to those same standards? And then she was like, and also, if you really are trying to, like, have the spirit with you and figure out what your path should be, shouldn't you like, try to have the spirit with you, as you figure out your path? And for
some reason, it just clicked. I was like, yeah, like, why am I using dating apps when I wouldn't want my brother to do that? Um, except for I guess, mutual now is popular and safe or whatever.
People get in a lot of trouble on mutual too.
And and I was like, and why would I be like, doing things on Sunday? And like, why would I like break my rules? Just because I'm dating a guy? Like, why wouldn't I just like, keep the same standards I had for myself. And that was a really eye opening moment for me that I could. In New York City, that was actually really difficult to do, especially because I mean, I dated some people who were members of the church, but a lot of them were just like, random people I met.
I mean, there's a ton of gay people in Manhattan. So like, I'm getting blush, because I almost said that because guys asked for my number all the time. And I don't want to seem like that.
We get it, Charlie. People think you're hot.
But it's true. A lot of people asked me out. And I found it, like, easy to find people to date. But I was like, why would I? Why would I not do this the way I want to do this? Like if I was looking for a girl today, I wouldn't be going to a bar or to a club or getting on Tinder. That's just not what I would do. So why would I do that with a guy?
Yeah, that's really good advice. Like, like your standards, they should come internally, and they don't need to change just because you're entering into a new arena.
Ben, did you feel unprepared? Or like immature with your feelings?
Oh, 100%. I mean, I still think if I were to date now, I would be in like a massive gay adolescence. Yeah, I just haven't, like the last time I liked someone after like knowing him for a week I was like, we're gonna get married, which is just absurd. But I'm just like so immature when it comes to like romantic relationships.
Remind us what the gay adolescence is.
So straight people growing up, they get to date and have crushes and talk about all those things when they're youth. And you know, they their parents are involved and their peers are involved. But since we don't get to do that, as LGBTQ folks, we don't get to have that same maturing experience of like, knowing that just because you're twitterpated doesn't mean that you are actually like in love with the person like, so we don't get to have those
experiences. And so when we start dating later in life, it's kind of like, we're adolescents or teens, but real adults. So if I were to date, I'd basically be like a 16 year old.
Yeah, I found that very difficult for me. I was I was basically I was like a sixth grader. And I was in a man's world. And I had like, the learning curve was especially like, it had to be quick. And then also, like, really hurt my feelings a lot, because I just felt stupid. And I think being out while you're dating is so so helpful. Like, I'm a huge advocate for that, because I had other people I could talk to
about it. And there were so many there were so many times when I accidentally fell into like, a situation that I didn't want to be in because I was just naive. And I didn't know other people's expectations. I didn't know the way I would feel about different things. I feel like a healthy like, introduction to dating experience is not a luxury that I ever had.
Yeah.
So like, whereas for straight people in the church, there's like, For the Strength of Youth, and there's like guidelines set, and then you go on...
You can meet at a steak dance and go on group date.
Exactly. And like at 16, you go on double dates and group dates, and then 18 maybe you can go on your first single, like, those are the... Then you can go on a formal date and your parents take a picture of you. Right. But for me, I'm like 25 now, and I'm in New York, and I'm dumb, like I have no experience in like, I don't know, I felt really overwhelmed a lot.
And also, like, I like to think I'm a fairly emotionally mature person. Feel free to correct that. But you know, we have different kinds of maturity and since I haven't had that experience I just don't...
Exactly like I, I was like working it a very fast paced Job had like, graduated, I had a lot of like, accomplishments, and I consider myself also emotionally mature and like intelligent, but romantically I had no context for what I would even feel like the first time that I held someone's hand or kissed someone. I just didn't know what would happen.
Yeah, I feel like the answer to the question. Can I date? And the answer is, you're gonna be terrible at it.
Or can it bad at it. That being said, there was some really, really beautiful things about it. Like, I've been going on dates with a lot of different people and mostly like, first dates, you know, meet someone, whatever. I had a really good first date with this, this one guy in particular. I was expecting it to go terribly. So maybe that's the reason I thought it was so good because
my expectations were so low. But when it was over, I called one of my friends as I was getting on the subway and I was just like, I just gush, and I was like, oh, he's so cute and I think he likes me. And I kept going on dates with him. I remember it was probably like our fourth or fifth date. He, he was kind of like scared to be forward with me because I was so religious, which I understand and actually respect that about him looking back. But I remember, we were like walking
down by the river. And it was so beautiful. We were looking over the city, and he reached out and grabbed my hand and I was like holding a guy's hand.
Ahhh, in public?
In public. And first of all, I never expected I would ever be able to hold a guy's hand in general, a much less in like a public setting and not be scared. Like, I just felt so comfortable. And like, because of where I was in New York, I just didn't feel like like, it was just normal. Like, no one was like, gawking at us or thinking anything. And it was like my heart, like, swelled. I felt so just like, giddy. I was so giddy. And then we were over
on his side of town. So like, we walked to his place, and we kissed before he went up. And then I got on the subway afterwards. And I had kissed a couple people before that. But this was like the first kiss that like, meant something that was real to me. And it was like, the first time I ever felt like a human. Like, I felt like a real person with a heart that beats and with feelings. And I didn't feel like an outcast. I didn't feel like some sort of freak, I just felt like, like a
human. And it was so, it was beautiful. And nothing about it felt wrong or off. It just felt really comfortable. And I was happy.
Yeah. And thank you for sharing that, Charlie, I had a very similar experience. Like when I kissed Jordan, I was like, Oh my gosh, I get it. Like, I get why people do this. Like before, I didn't get it. And I really did feel like more more like a human. And I also want to say, you know, there are people who identify as aromantic, who have no desire to kiss someone. And they're, of
course, fully human. But for me, like for my human experience, I think kissing someone I really liked was super important to me, like, understand so much about myself. And just like what it means to be to be like Ben, and you know, and that said, like, if you take out the next logical conclusion, you know, there are things I still don't understand, because I've never had sex with anyone or been married. And like, been in a long term partnership like that. There's some things you can just only
learn in some ways. And yeah, and I you know, and that's something I recognize.
Yeah, and one thing I learned out of that relationship, I ended up dating that guy for a while, it was it's so interesting to look back and see the gay adolescence in full force as I reflect on that relationship, I was having so many validating exciting experiences. And as I was opening up and doing new things like like, like holding his hand in public for the first time, that was me, like living and thriving, and it was exhilarating and fun, and it was new. And I felt safe as I did
it. And so all of those feelings, like I was shedding internalized homophobia at a rapid rate. It was just coming off of me as I was, like, being gay, you know, dating someone and just like learning what that was about. And so I'm having all these experiences. And looking back, it was, it's so interesting how, as I was, like, falling in love with myself, and like really gaining self confidence and being okay with who I am, it was really easy to confuse that with love for him.
And I mean, obviously, like he had like, qualities that I was interested in, or else I wouldn't have gone on a second date with him. But we were not very compatible. And we had very different life experiences and very different views. We were very different religiously. And there were a lot of things that just like never would have
worked. But because like he was the first person that I ever, like, let my guard down and kind of drop some of my walls for I was like, incredibly invested in it to almost like an unhealthy way. So that like when things would be off or when it eventually ended. Like I was like, crushed and damaged and heartbroken. Because it was just it was so hard to like separate. Is this me loving me? Or is this me loving him? Is this me being
myself? Or like he he was such a part of my coming out and dating experience, even like with my experience living in New York, because like he showed me new places and took me to, like, you know, like, as I fell in love with the city, and as I fell in love with myself, I confused that with falling in love with him sometimes. And that's something that I see people do a lot, especially when it's the first time dating someone.
Yeah, and I think that's a that's a normal experience people often have as teenagers. Yeah, and I think that's a super common thing thing to have happen. And, you know, it's tough when you're wondering, like, is it this experience that I'm enjoying? Or is it like this person that I want to be with,
right? And I've seen some people who you know, they end up just marrying the first person they date because they don't separate those things because the truth is, you know, we date to get to know people and also to get to know ourselves and, and so I think that thinking that we're going to marry the first person we date is is usually not what happens but definitely can
happen. And yeah, yeah, I think that often we, I've seen people jump into things, maybe, maybe more quickly than might be healthy.
Yeah. And I think part of that was that he was interested in the part of me that I'd always hated the most. Like, I'd always hated that I was gay. But he liked that I was gay, because it meant that we could date. That, that was a feeling I never felt I never had someone like, like, my orientation, and be okay with my
orientation. And so it almost made me feel to a certain extent, like, he's the only person who could ever love me, because I still, like even at that point, had a lot of feelings of like, being broken or damaged, or used or, or worthless.
And so you were kind of staying in a relationship, because you didn't think that you would get anything better.
Yeah, yeah. And, and I, again, I talked to my friends about it. Actually, at the beginning of the relationship. I wasn't telling anyone that we were dating, and then like, a couple weeks, in I was like, What am I doing? Like, this is so dumb. And so I was like, Rachel. And and she said to me, like, I would be like, he did this. And she's like, honestly, Charlie, it just sounds like that's like baseline being a good person. And I was like...
You're like, it's so romantic and it means so much to me.
Yeah, exactly. And she's like, I think you need to like, raise your standards. And she was right. So I guess I don't know, the moral of that story is to be aware of that, I guess. I mean, it happened to me. So it could probably happen to you.
Yeah. So one of the questions I get asked a lot, and once again, like we're not telling anyone what to do. But people say I'm worried about dating, because I don't want to lose my relationship with God. Like, I don't want to lose the spirit in my life.
In my case, dating, in a lot of ways mended my relationship with God, because I was still kind of mad at God for feeling like other people could do things that I couldn't. And to me, it was like a crash course in agency, like really realizing that I have freewill and I can make decisions. And that like, Christ's atonement isn't some sort of like, I don't know, like, like, I really had to use it and be like, I'm going down this path. Do I want to keep going? Should I back out?
Should I go a different way. And, like by making decisions, I had to rely on God. Because I couldn't rely on the For the Strength of Youth, and I couldn't rely on heterosexual advice. And I couldn't rely on like, like, I had friends and stuff but like, there was this element of me doing something that was so singularly me that I needed spiritual guidance. So I ended up turning to God a lot more with the gay relationships than any other relationship I'd ever really had.
Yeah. You know, I feel very similar. But I mean, not quite to that extreme. Because I don't feel like I had a relationship with God that needed to be mended. Because I was never like mad at God, which I think is not normal. I think most people have that experience. But I just remember, it was like, it's like Second Nephi chapter two, you know, where you need to, you need to know what like, there needs to be bitter and sweet. Like, there has to be choices for us, to like actually have
agency. And I felt like having this relationship with Jordan was like, it was like a choice that was placed in front of me. And as I made that choice, I was able to make the choice that ultimately I feel was best for me, which was to stay or move forward in the church and live
church teachings. And I'm not sure that--this is for me--I'm not sure I could have moved forward in the church in a healthy way had I not been in that relationship, which is why I think God wanted me to have that relationship.
I agree. I feel that way, as well.
And once again, we're not saying we want to do, but but for me that that that was the case. And I remember, I remember, so I came up to visit Jordan. Like in April, after we'd been, you know, romantically involved, but long distance for since January. And I made some firm rules that we weren't gonna, like, we were gonna hold hands, we're gonna kiss. And we ended up doing both of those things. Both those things.
You dog.
I know, right? A 30 year old kissing someone. And so we kissed on a Saturday night. And my immediate reaction was, I have never kissed a guy. And now I have and I just like, felt like I just like broken myself. Like, I just like gone back on this decision I'd made I just felt terrible, just absolute terrible, that had like, gone back on this decision I'd made and like, now, I could never say
that I hadn't kissed a guy. And so then the next morning, Sunday, and we went to church, and I remember the sacrament coming around and thinking, am I worthy to take the sacrament? And just like really, like, praying and pondering and, and exploring my feelings. And I felt yes, I felt completely worthy to take the sacrament even though I just kissed Jordan, less than 12 hours before.
Ben told me this story as I was like, just starting with this first boyfriend that I had. At that time. I was wondering if because like it was one thing to go on dates with random people. But it felt like an entirely different thing to me to be like, steadily dating someone like this same person, and we'd see each other like, at least every two days, and we talk every day. And I was wondering if I should still be going to the temple just because like, there's not a guidebook
for us. Like, there's not like rules. Like who knows.
And honestly, like, in a lot of ways for straight people, there's not like, well, if you do X, Y, and Z, you can't do you can't do such and such a thing. Like, I mean, they're like general principles, like we know, like some hard lines. But a lot of it is kind of up to personal revelation.
Well I don't think a straight person would ever wonder if they could go to the temple because they kissed someone.
That's true.
And so and that's how I was feeling I wasn't sure. But I felt like I should like, I felt like I should be going to the temple every week. And again, it was the kind of the feeling that I had when I first felt like I should start dating. I was like, are you sure about this? Like, am I being deceived? Is this the right information? Or is this just what I want? Am I lying to myself? And when Ben said that, to me, it really validated what
I was feeling. And then that was a really a real blessing to me, because I feel like I needed that spiritual sustenance as I was working through such uncharted territory. And it was it's, it might, I don't know if it sounds crazy to people, I don't know if it sounds inappropriate. But for me, I feel like it was exactly what I needed to be doing. Because I would like, go on a date with my boyfriend on Friday night. And I'd wake up on Saturday morning
and do a temple session. And I just like, needed that and it grounded me. And I ended up breaking up with this guy. And it was horrible. And I finally understood heartbreak songs. It was awful.
I had the exact same experience when Jordan and I ended. I remember calling my friend Lee and I was like, it feels like my heart literally broke. Like, like this, like heartbreak, like something inside of me is actually broken right now.
My heart hurts.
Like why wasn't it like this when I got dumped by women. It was not the same experience.
It was awful. And it was also a new experience to me to like have a relationship like to have someone I cared about that I couldn't keep with me. Because all other friends like usually if I care about someone I like keep them in my life, at least to some extent. But with this guy, I was like, we broke up and it's like, I can't really like reach out to him. Because it's just weird. There's just like a different vibe there. And that was new, had to learn that.
But you know what I will say once I kind of like, bounced back from that. Going forward, I was much better at dating because it was all of that gay adolescence, I kind of had like a crash course. Like, I'd had like a pilot episode. And I kind of understood where I was and how to keep going forward with it. And I felt much better.
So after this guy that you had this heartbreak with, did you keep dating?
Yeah, I did. And I ended up finding another person who was a better fit for me. It was just, it was much healthier. And like, like I said, this is the guy that I invited to church and he would hang out, I would hang out with his friends and he would hang out with mine. And it felt a lot more normal. And in a lot of ways I felt safer with him, which proves that Rachel was right. Like, first guy was like a fine person, but wasn't
for me. Like we weren't compatible, but I was much more compatible with with the next guy and, and it was just, it was nice to have someone. It really was. I really liked him. And things were progressing well. Things were progressing well enough that it was kind of starting to make me like wonder.
If you should get married?
No, not if I should get married. But just like I was like, okay, like this is a relationship that I could see lasting for a while. This was the first guy like I knew there was a bunch of like, red flags that I didn't like. And so it was almost like, I was holding on to something that I knew would inevitably break.
Mm hmm.
You know what? That was a real mess. I'm being honest. I'm very glad that's over. Like I learned like Ariana Grande says Thank you Next.
What was it like dating guy that you thought maybe I could see myself with him?
It was a lot different. Because it wasn't, there was like an element of danger with the first guy and an element of like rigidness because I was very afraid to like fall into any length chastity issues. And I was really attracted to him. And it was really hard because we had incredibly different standards. We had different value systems. And I had very strict standards about what was and was not appropriate
physically. And he didn't and that honestly really stressed me out because like, I felt like I was the sole guardian of what was and wasn't allowed. Because if I ever like I felt like if I ever like had a weak moment that he wouldn't stop. And that really scared me. So there was like an element of danger with first guy.
You guys weren't on the same page.
We weren't on the same page. Yeah. And with the second guy I was dating that wasn't there, I felt much more comfortable. And I felt much more like appreciated and respected for what I believe. And we dated for a while. He had a really cool career. And we did just really fun things together. And my friends really liked him. And I got to the point where I was like, Oh no, there's like nothing wrong with this guy.
What does that mean? Because, because before had been like, date here, date there, date, date, date. And even with one guy I knew that it would end. I knew there was an expiration date on it eventually. But with the second guy, I was like, I don't, like, I don't know what to do here. And he was coming to church with me. And actually he hated it. He was like, it's so boring. Like, yeah. Yeah, it is. But like he was respectful. And I actually came out publicly when I was still dating him.
You were dating him when that Deseret News op ed came out?
I was dating him when the Deseret News op ed came out.
Scandal. Did the Deseret News know?
No, they didn't. But like, I don't think it's that much of a shock. Like everyone, when that came out figured I was like, assumptions about me after that article were high and raging. So that one is mild compared to what a lot of people thought I was doing. But I remember after that came out, I was I was seeing more of a life for myself. Because before I wasn't really sure where I was going, I didn't really have a direction. And I was living in like, a gray Limbo space for a
while. And then I was like, actually, you know what, like, there needs to be more visibility in my church, and maybe I should be more involved. And once that article was so big, like, it just felt, right. I felt pulled to something else. And, and I was like, God, like, here's the deal. I really like this guy. And I've been praying a lot. Like I prayed about everything I prayed about who I should go on dates with, and when, like, I really wanted to make sure that I was doing it
right. Right for me, at least. And I was praying, and I was like, God, I really like this guy. And he cares about me, and he's good. What should I do? And I had a very strong impression that was like, break up with him tomorrow and stop dating. And I was like, what?!? I was like, but I like him. I like him a lot. And I was like, are you sure? So like, for the whole night I'm just kind of like, I'm like Enos going back and forth. My wrestle. And, and I just felt like I should. And so the next
day, I talked to him. And I was like, hey, like, we need to talk. And we had the discussion. And he was so gracious and graceful. And he was like, I understand and like, this is your personal journey, and I care about you, and I don't want to hold you back. And if having me would hold you back from being able to gain the trust of your community, or would like thwart the way that your voice or your message is heard, then then I think you should, you should go with your gut, and
stop dating. And I was like, okay bye.
That was so nice of him.
Yeah, he's really an incredible guy. So we broke up. And the next week, I was asked to write my book, by Deseret Book, and my life just unfolded in a really beautiful, unexpected, unforeseen way. And when I look back at that period, while I was dating, I would, I don't think I would have had the strength or the courage or the stamina to do anything, any of what I've done, had I not had those experiences dating. I think I would have been
resentful. I think I would have been bitter, I think I would have gotten just like, stuck in my own head a lot more. Knowing what I was giving up choosing to not date, it made that decision a lot easier. Because it wasn't a value of x, it was a value that I'd solved. And I knew what the numerical number was. And I could know if, and I was like, I can have either like, I now know that if I can date. Like if I
want to date I can. And I can be successful, and I can grow and I can find a really, really good person who loves me like I did.
Yeah. What I'm hearing you say is like, one thing that was hard for me, it was like, I felt so trapped in the Church. Yeah, like, I felt like there was no way out. Like I was just like, trapped in this doctrine and culture that didn't have a place for me. And then my relationship with Jordan kind of opened up to like, the possibilities of like, I'm not trapped, I've got really good options. And yet, this is where I want to be.
Right. And that in even if I wanted to go back, like I can patch work a way to do it, where I'm still going to church as I'm dating, and I find someone with similar values. And I can do it in a way that incorporates my past experience and my spirituality in a way that adds to a relationship, rather than, like choosing one or the other. I think that's so, so, so problematic to think you have to choose one or the other.
So Charlie, in your ideal world, you would be dating a man who has your same values and move forward in the church.
Yeah. Yeah, that's my ideal world. People ask me a lot about the future. And my future plans and like is that I haven't talked about dating for a long time. Let's say I came out in February of 2019. So it's almost been two years. And this is the first public anything of me talking about actually dating guys. And the reason I've done that is because I've noticed if I start saying things that people are uncomfortable with,
they will not listen to me. And and I believe that if I would have had, if I would have still been dating that guy who was good and funny, and compelling and interesting and talented, that people wouldn't have respected me or believed me at all. I wouldn't have been able to write my book, I wouldn't have been able to start this podcast, like people don't listen to gay people in relationships. But like me, dating didn't, didn't take away from my value as a saint. That's
really what I felt. Honestly, it feels like the reason that God asked me to stop dating wasn't because I was going down a horrible path. It was because I had a work to do. That couldn't be done had I been with someone.
I think about the sacrifices we make. And you and I were just talking recently about how I was saying, like, I feel like I could just be like, the same sex romantic relationship. I know that word you hate. And just like, be with someone, whether it's like, you know, kiss and cuddle, and like, that'd be enough for me. And I've been thinking about it, since we talked about it
yesterday. And I, I think that would be enough for me, because it would have to be because I'm not allowed to want something more. And like even now, like, I don't feel like that kind of like even the same sex romantic relationship that's like, keeping the law of chastity. And like, even that I don't feel like is right for me now. So it's just kind of tragic that things that we aren't allowed to want. People will tell me often like, well, Ben, you don't date
because you work at BYU. And like, that's 100% not the case. Because I was in Arizona for three years, you know, out and I wasn't dating there. Because I felt that that wasn't the right path for me after Jordan. And so when I moved up to Utah, you know, even though the school rules were I couldn't date. It wasn't because of the school rules. It was because of my own personal values. And what I felt
God was asking me to do. If I felt prompted to do something else, I could leave BYU, I've got good credentials, I could do something else. But this is where I want to be.
Moving forward, because of these experiences that I've had and makes my future much less stressful. I've kind of like, without all of this background information, the thing that I have have been saying to people is like, I'll just consult God and ask what path he wants me to take where he wants me to be. And I don't think there's just two paths,
let me make that very clear. I know that we all have agency and we can make any choice that we want really, granted, like there, there are some choices that come with the with different sacrifices, right? But, but you're not stuck, you can choose you can make decisions. And you can do them in a way that is congruent with who you are. Looking back, there's a period of time when I felt inspired by God to date guys, and to pursue romantic relationships with someone that, that I care about, and I'm
attracted to. Then there's a period of time where I was inspired to not. And so looking forward, it doesn't stress me out as much because I'm like, well, God's told me to date and God has told me to not date and I just trust that that'll happen again. And if I'm supposed to be dating someone, I feel confident enough in my relationship with God that I can feel what's right, and pursue that if I feel spiritually drawn towards it.
But if not, then not, and I just, I really believe that, like, I can, like choose my own happiness, as I pray about it.
Yeah. And what I'm hearing you say Charlie is like, what I try and do is, I try to have an internal locus of control, like I don't, I try and, like make my decisions, like, because of me, and not because of external factors. And of course, no one's perfect with that. But that is what I strive for. And so, you know, if someone says, you know, Ben, can I date, you know, that, of course, is not a choice for me to make for them. And, you know, I would really want to know, like, like, why do they
want to date? You know, is it because they feel trapped? Is it because they feel lonely? And the only way they'll be happy is if they have a partner? You know, I think that if someone's going to date, I would want them to do it for like, healthy reasons. And right now, can, can I date? No, I can't, because I have talked with God about this multiple times. And I don't feel like that's the right thing for me. And yet, I know plenty of people who feel the opposite. And it's been different for me
in the past. And so all these questions, it really comes down to what what is, what is God telling us? And I think that's really important.
Yeah, it was kind of a lesson to me to not put limits on what God tells me. And to not like, get so stuck on one path that I see that I don't see that I'm supposed to be on a different one. Life is a lot less linear than I imagined it would be. And it almost reminds me of the scriptures when it says like, life is a straight and narrow path. It's not straight, like straight. It's strait, like like a strait s-t-r-a-i-t. and a straight, has
curves and twists. And there's parts where it's wider and parts where it's thinner. And so I used to think that, like, my life would be like one direct line, but I now realize that there's a lot of different experiences that I need to be having. That that caused me to rely on the Lord and figure out where I'm supposed to be. And right now, I feel like I'm where
I'm supposed to be. But I'm not saying that saying that, like, this is where I'm always supposed to be because I think when we do that, then we lose out on the ability to, to choose and then we do feel trapped.
Yeah, definitely. You know what you've been saying Charlie reminds me of something Joseph Smith said, this is from teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. I'm reading and not quoting this one. He said, "That which is wrong under one circumstance may be and often is right under another. God said, Thou shalt not kill. At another time, he said, thou shalt
utterly destroy. This is the principle on which the government of Heaven is conducted by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof 'til long after the events transpire." Yeah, I feel like for me, personally, there was a time when I was supposed to be in relationship with Jordan. And I don't feel like that's what I'm supposed to
be doing now. And so I move forward with with the revelation, I feel like God has given me now.
Ben you're very bold to call him by name. I will not be disclosing the names of my ex-boyfriends.
I've got the one. And he's in the book. So I mean he's named in a book. So if anyone reads the book, they know his name.
I've been on a lot of dates.
I just have the one. Jordan is the only guy I've kissed.
He's the one, the one that got away. Am I right?
I'm sure. No. Charlie, are you worried that by you talking about how important dating was to you that that will give people permission to date?
I don't think it's my place to give anyone permission to date. Like if you want to date then I say take it up with God and talk to people who you trust and care about you, and see if that's what you should be doing. And realize that no one decision is ever final or damning. Like that is the enabling power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, that we have flexibility. And we can I find the right path.
Yeah, definitely. You know, I, if someone like looks to us, like, oh, well, Ben and Charlie had same sex romantic relationships, therefore, it's okay for me to do it. I would really worry about that person. Because if someone's looking to us for permission to do things, I think that says, like less about our experiences, and more about them and how they're making decisions. And so I would hope that no one would look to us for what decisions to make. We're just sharing our experiences.
All right. Well, we hope you all enjoyed our episode on dating.
On Charlie's dating escapades.
On my dating escapades. And uh...
I just want to say, Charlie, we've known we had to do this episode for a while. And Charlie has been very nervous to do this.
I've been nervous to do this. Well, I don't, I don't know. I just, I really don't want to, like, lose credibility. And I don't want people to think differently of me. And also kind of bugs me that just because I'm gay, everyone feels entitled to like a full history of my dating experience. Everyone asked me all the time, and I'm like, we don't do this to regular people.
Yeah, I don't mind giving them my dating history. Because it's a very small pamphlet.
Yeah. My mind's like a trilogy. So like the Harry Potter series. It's very, it's very complex.
But mine fit's all in a nice short chapter in my book.
I'm so glad I don't have to write a book about my dating. It was it was, I mean, I dated for two years. We hit the tip of the iceberg. But hopefully, it'll make me more comfortable sharing other experiences as I feel prompted.
Yeah. And I think it's hard when you feel like you have to keep something back.
Yeah, it is. It's hard. It's hard to feel like there's a tug of war between what I'm allowed to say and what I feel like I need to say.
Yeah.
That's difficult. See, Episode 37.
Great, we should end. We've probably been
Yeah, hopefully this was entertaining. At the very least, hopefully, it was educational, but at the very least entertaining. Thank you for joining us today. If you have enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving a review. And as always, please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We are not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.
Your two perspectives today and there are many, many more, we encourage you to listen to their voices and hear wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecl set@gmail.com. Until next ti e.