Welcome to Questions from the Closet. I'm Charlie Bird.
And I am Ben Schilaty. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer these questions or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, am I being deceived?
So Charlie and I are not totally diverse and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both have beautiful eyes.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, Ben has a lot longer lashes than I do. And he also wears glasses.
Sure, my lashes are very long.
What is your vision thing?
I'm not sure you'd like the 20/whatever thing.
I'm like 20/25.
That's really good. So my contacts prescription is minus four, minus four, minus four.
What's the biggest minus?
I don't know what my dad's like a minus 12. And he's like, legally blind. What?
What's the difference between a plus and a minus?
I don't. nearsighted, farsighted. I don't know. I don't know what it means.
Well, the thing is your lashes. Ben has lashes like a camel. Like I went to Egypt once and I was riding a camel. And I was like, Oh my gosh, this camel looks like Ben because it's like the eyelashes are so ...
You did not think of me when you saw the camel.
You're Lebanese.
That's true. And my face is kind of a camel face.
Okay, that's fine. But mostly just the lashes are so long.
That's true. I do have really long lashes.
I really, you know, I want to put mascara on you to like volumize and boost those babies.
You're not the first person to say that.
Really?
I've had a lot of people offer to like curl eyelashes and like put mascara on them.
Well, we should do it. No. Well, the thing is, like your glasses make them even longer.
I know. And I used to have a pair of glasses once actually, when I like push them back. my lashes would hit the glass.
Oh my gosh, your eyes are blue. Right? Yeah, mine are green.
I know.
Just so everyone knows what we're talking about our eyes. Whereas now we're just looking deep into each other's eyes. Trying to think of more material.
But anyway, let's talk about the topic today. So we would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. So today we're joined by Dave Butler.
Yeehee!
That's the first time someone yelped to introduce themselves. We kind of confused him on what to do.
Well I just went with what my Spirit said,
That was very appropriate.
Well, that's perfect. Cuz today we're talking about the Spirit. Yeah.
So tell us a little bit about yourself, Dave.
I'm a Texan. I like barbecue.
What part of Texas are you from?
Just outside of Houston? Place called Sugar Land. Do you know that band?
Sugar Land? Oh, yeah I didn't know they were named after Texas.
My hometown.
Jennifer Nettles.
Is that the main girl?
Yeah.
Oh. I just claim that I'm from the town they're named after, are they anyways, I was about to bust into one of their songs. And I am married to Jenny. We have six kids. We live in Lehi. And we are just our oldest is 16. Our baby is six. And so we're just, oh, they control my whole life right now.
In a good way.
Yeah, yeah.
And what do you do professionally?
I teach Institute, right now at UVU at the institute at UVU. And I've taught seminary for lots of years. And then a couple years ago, I started teaching Institute at UVU. And so that is my my main gig.
And you're like an expert on the Holy Ghost?
I don't think so. But if you want me to be today.
That's why you're here. OK, well shoot. You should have found somebody else.
So today we're talking about like, Am I being deceived? Which is a question I once asked Ben, and I'll kind of tell that story a little bit later. But I think at least I've kind of struggled in my journey knowing like what's coming from God and what's not like, is this personal revelation? Or is this just what I want? Is this just my desire? And the same day my book came out, you released a book about the Holy Spirit called Spirit. And so I just figured you done a lot of
research. And your book's pretty good. So I was like, let's have Dave on.
Well, thank you. Yeah. And then it all seriously the day I submitted that manuscript, I was like, I already would add so much to change it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I that's true of everybody, right? who submits one. They're just like, oh, but legitimately with that one. I was like, I think I've learned some new things, I think, I think, not majorly differently, but like some things I might nuance a little anyways, but full disclosure, I have written a book on the
Spirit. And I did spend a lot of time you know, reading, researching, thinking, obviously about it, but I just feel like that is a there. This podcast should be different a year from now. I think. I think that's the essence, right of living a life that's spirit-led where you're just like, there's something a little bit mysterious about it. There's something that's like, developmental about it.
Like there's no growth or progress then what's the point?
Right? Right? So like, stagnant is a word I would never associate with the Holy Spirit. And so I don't know what the difference, the opposite of that is. Wild?
Flowing.
Flowing. Yeah.
Growing, thriving.
I thought we were gonna start rhyming,
So when you're like, rowing, rowing, paddle down. So Ben, have you ever wondered if, like, increased acceptance of your sexual orientation was like a deception?
Yes, I have. I wouldn't say it's a constant thing. But I mean, I'm 37 and single and not pursuing a marriage to a woman right now or a man. So I'm like, not following church teachings, if you will, because I'm not trying to get married, which I guess I need to do to be exalted and become like, God, I shouldn't say so flippantly, but well. So there have actually been a number of times like since I came out publicly, where I just like, really sincerely pray and I'm like, Am I supposed
to marry a woman? Like, am I doing this wrong? Just like really sincerely. And then the most recent time that happened was there was a General Conference talk not too long ago, that was like, really hard for me and really triggering, and I just had like this, and I watched it with a friend of mine who's gay. And she just like sobbed after just like sobbed. And I was, I was upset. She was
sad. I just like, came down to my room, and I knelt down, I had this like, really sincere prayers, like, vocally and I was like, What the heck God? Like, am I wrong? Is this General Conference speaker wrong? Are is there? Is he right? Am I right? Is there a way that we're are we both wrong? Are we both right somehow? Like, should I actually be trying to marry a woman like, like he's saying, and, and I just like, as I prayed this, like really sincerely, and like,
honestly, kind of raging? I just like, felt calm, like, no, Ben, you're on the right path, like, you're going the way you're supposed to go.
Yeah, I think for me, it was confusing, because, like, so much of the stuff I learned at church and from church leaders was true and good and right. But when it came to orientation, so much of what I learned there was damaging, and hurtful. And so, like, it was weird for me, for example, like I had church leaders counsel me to, to not identify as gay and just say, I was, like, experiencing feelings of same sex attraction. And I was like,
Okay, I'll do that. And so for a long time, like, the way I self identified was, I have these feelings of same sex attraction. But it like wasn't working for me. It was stressing me out. It was making my life more difficult. I was hiding from people. And then I started saying I was gay. And I started feeling lighter, and closer to God. And I was like, this is really confusing, because like, I thought this was the word I
wasn't supposed to use. And, like, that's just a small example of like, my growth, of accepting myself is something that like, I thought I wasn't allowed to do. Like, I thought God didn't accept gay and gayness, so me accepting myself and being more authentic and, and like, owning that part of me. Felt like, like, I was like, is this spirit taking me here? Or is like Satan taking me here?
Because I was always told that like, Satan is the one that is like, pushing for gay marriage and trying to like destroy the family and things like that. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, is that what I'm becoming? Hmm.
Yeah. Dave, when have you worried about whether or not you were being deceived?
It's so funny, because when you texted and said, that's where we're gonna kind of talk about I was like, I started thinking, and I was like, Well, I guess the thing is, by nature, you wouldn't know if you were being deceived. You know what I mean? Like, by definition of the word, if you're deceived, that means that you believe fully, something
that's false, right? And so you wouldn't ever like actually, it would take some sort of outside interference, or, you know, to like, realize, like, Oh, hold on, I believed that really strongly. And I guess I was wrong. You know, about that, or, I'm working through this, or whatever. And I thought that would ,Charlie, when you were just talking I kind of thought my first inclination probably would have been when I realized, you know, you say, like, Oh, I'm gay. And all of a sudden, I felt
closer to God. They my first inclination probably being like, Oh, I guess I was wrong about what God thought about gayness. Right. Right. Like, I was like, Oh, actually, like, I believed something that was false earlier. You know, is it because because it goes both ways, right? Because you're kind of thinking, Oh, was I am I wrong right now? But maybe you were wrong. Does that actually happen?
I think that's why it's so difficult because this juxtaposition of like, because then that makes what I learned at church deceptive.
Well, and I think that's a hard word because that word deceive has like a connotation of like, intention. I don't know if it is for y'all. Maybe that's just me when I hear the word deceive.
Well, let's define how we use it.
Yeah. Because when I hear that word, I sense like a conniving, like a purposeful...
Manipulation.
Right? Right? You know that word just carries that feeling for me. And so we don't know, right? Like, I don't know the intention if if someone taught me something wrong. Let's say for example, I actually don't know the intention of that person. And if I were to, like, accuse them, like just mentally, and say, like, oh, You deceived me, I would be offended. If somebody said that, to me. That's how I feel about the word. You know, someone, I You deceived me.
because if you've taught something that was like, untrue or mistaken, like, you never would have meant to do that.
Right, right. I think I would say like, Oh, I'm sorry, the seed sounds so like, like, just eat as like an evil connotation to it. And maybe it does, you know, like, by definition, it might not. But I hear that word. And I think,
Well, you think of like Satan being the father of deception and lies.
Yeah, yeah. The deceiver, you know, and you're like, Oh, my goodness.
Yeah.
So I was gonna say, like, you know, I was deceived at church. And it's to me that like, could there be somebody at church who's manipulative and conniving? And yes, absolutely. For sure. There could be people like that at church, why would there not? Why could that not happen? Right? And if we go into church.
I hope they're at church. Y'all better get yourselves to church.
If I'm going to church, you know, thinking to myself, like, Oh, this is a place where I could never be taught wrong, then I don't think that'd be a really smart, super healthy way to worship and to think through and it's interesting, because, like scripture, if we take scripture, for example, we usually today go to scripture for answers. But scripture is actually wisdom literature, the ancients wouldn't have seen scripture
having that purpose. The Scriptures, like began the discussion, or continued it or in, like invoked, more feelings and questions about it. Like that was its intention to get you talking, and to get you discovering and wondering and stuff like that. We have such a different culture scriptures today, right? We're just like, Oh, I go to the Scriptures to end the argument. Right. But that that's scriptures to begin,
right. Right to be like, oh, let's start to let's use this, this, these words is the place to like, get into the discussion, get into the messiness of whatever it is we're trying to figure out.
Yeah, well, and that makes sense. Because, because, like when I figured out things, for example, like, I'm just gonna keep using that because it's like a safer and an easy one to understand. Like, when I started, like, accepting my identity, and feeling good about that. It made me question basically, everything I'd learned, right? Cuz I'm like, Well, if that was wrong, what else could be wrong? And that I think I was worried if I was being deceived, because that was
scary. It's scary to look at your entire belief set and think could couldn't could something else be wrong? You know, but you're saying that's kind of healthy?
Honestly, I think that's super healthy. Like when when President Uchtdorf said a few years ago, like, we should doubt our doubts. I don't think like the skill to like doubt your doubts is also learning how to like doubt what you know, as well, like just this, I think it's really healthy to like, examine and look at it.
Yeah. It's not like disregard your doubts?
Yeah. It's like, you know, I believe this and why do I believe this? And, and, and look at the fruits of it.
And well, and I think like, you're, we're talking about what's the opposite of like that word, we use the beginning, stagnant, like it feels really stale and stagnant for just like for everything to be so cut and dry. And I actually think beliefs have a lot more thrill and power to them. If, if we, if we can doubt them if they can be wrong, you know, does that make sense?
Like, oh, now, yes, all of a sudden, there's like an excitement to things that you believe in you have race and like, if you can't be wrong, like all of that is, is lost.
It turns into like an obstacle course instead of just like running around a track.
Wait, tell me what you mean by that.
I'm thinking of like, what's that show I like to watch for the people fall off the rings, American Ninja Warrior, like, like, it becomes an American Ninja Warrior course, like, anyone can just like walk down and be bored, like doing circles on a track. But if you're like, on a course or like going trail running, like takes it into a place that you've never seen before. And it makes you stay on your toes.
Yeah, I think if we were to say, Oh, I like it this way, because it is super safe. Then I would say Oh, then you give up, like courage and wimzie on the other side. If you're going to be safe, it means that you're you're always going to be safe, it means you won't get to experience like the other side of where those things, you know could be like so it seems nice to try and make it really cut and dry. Let's make the profit
of fax machine. So that everything is never misinterpreted, always straight from God, like, you know, but the fact that like we can interpret and speak wrong and accidentally leave, you know, like, like the fact that anybody can do that on any level, actually, like makes it imperative for us to live a life led by the Spirit. And like it, it makes it so you like oh my gosh, we have to every day, we have to like work through this and adjust and think and but that's what it means to be
alive. So I wouldn't want to get rid of it.
As you guys were talking I thought about this scripture in 2 Nephi 28. And Nephi kind of goes through a couple of examples of how the devil tries to deceive us. He says, this is
27, "yea wo be unto him that say we have received and we need no more." You know, I think this is really good at that, like, you know, we shouldn't have a stagnant faith we shouldn't have like, if we think that what we believe and know, and how we've been led to where we are like, that's it. Like that's like, we're warned against that.
That's a cool, what verse is that, because I've never read it like that before. That's actually super rad.
28 no 28:27.
So like, I wonder if by definition, to have faith, it must be challenged. Because if it's not challenged, there's no need for faith.
Oh, it seems so like, right? Can you say that you trust somebody? If there's not an opportunity to like mistrust or, you know, trust somebody is like, that's a that's a step into the dark as people like to say like that really is like, yeah, I'm like, I'm making a decision. I'm leaning on you. I have reason to, but it's like, I don't actually know for, you know, for sure.
Yeah. And I feel like that question has made me a more engaged believer, for example, to take a like another like a General Conference talk that was given that didn't sit well with me, it probably was the same one, honestly. I was I like had a similar I was like, Oh my gosh, am I wrong? Like is everything I believe, like
what's real? And I ended up printing that off and going through and like high like praying about it and highlighting and being like, you know what, there are these principles and these themes and these quotes within this talk that I believe are true and resonate. And are these things that like, I don't know, like, I don't like to be like frank, like, I don't believe them. Right? Yeah. But like the process of like, owning my testimony like that, and exercising faith was really
cool. And really building and then it's made me like, like, whenever something's said, I might before I just take this and like, tack it on this, like push pin board of testimony. I'm gonna like pray about it and see if I want to put it up there. Like is that what's true for me?
You know, to take something like that that's such a cool practice and when you were saying that I was like, oh, and then I, my personality is would have quickly gone to other people. Maybe quicker. I don't know, I was about to say that I should. But I don't even think there's a should or shouldn't with that. I would have taken that talk and quickly brought other people into the conversation and just been like, yeah, wait, do you think this is true? Like, I'm really bugged by
this. And like, let's I want to think through it. I just think through things better with and you know, other people too, you know, so it's just like, yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Ben, do you remember when I asked you this exact question? I do. So we were at a USGA meeting, which is like an unofficial BYU group. And I was just like, barely, like, stepping out and was like trying to fly under the radar.
You were such a little baby gay.
I was a little baby gay. And it really wasn't that long ago. But I we were in a BYU working group together. So we kind of knew each other. And I would like walk there right after practice. And I live like on the other side of town. So Ben would like pretty much every week drive me home. And one time you drove me home, and you told the story that I thought like sounded ridiculous, but also felt true to me.
What's the story?
Cuz you made out with your boyfriend? And then the next day, were like, I need to go to the temple. And you're like, Am I worthy? And you're like, yeah. And so like, you went to the temple, and I was like, you can kiss a boy and then go to the temple? I was like, what? But then like, going to the temple was like a really good experience for you and helped you like, understand where you fit and where you want it to move forward.
Exactly what I need it.
Yeah. So I was just like, that, like rocked my world. I was not ready to hear that. And I remember thinking I was like, Oh my gosh, like, is Ben, like some sort of like, demon. Like, is he like, like manipulating me and trying to get me to believe something?
Maybe.
it sounded shocking to me. And I was like, Ben, are we being deceived? Should I just like, hate myself again and try to marry a woman even though it's like really not working for me? And should I just go back to the closet where I was living for so long?
What did I say?
Everything felt like dangerous but safe. That's like, I don't know, looming, but say like, heavy but safe. And you're like, I don't know, maybe, but like, How do you feel? What are basically you asked me what the fruits of like coming out and like starting this journey had been and had Ben.
Good pun.
And I was like, Well, I'm happier. I can sleep now. I don't have panic attacks, I can pray without apologizing that I'm even praying. Like, I can ask questions. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm not being deceived. Like I'm growing and getting healthier. But but but like, it was still weird because I honestly thought that like, like accepting sexual orientation was like a great sin. Because that's what I've been instilled with. But it actually like really helps me get to God.
I'm so wise, it's always to look at the fruits of what was happening.
So that's when I made out with the guy that went to the temple. Just like you, Ben.
You did not.
I didn't. We can cut that.
But yeah, I think I don't know if I said this in this conversation. But sometimes people are like, well, I'm feeling this way. But I'm not sure if it's right or true. And I like well, what happened when you like, got your testimony of the Book of Mormon or the restoration? Like, is it that same feeling? Like, I've just learned ways that I've learned truth. And so, you know, if I'm learning a truth that that feels like tougher, or different than
I had expected? Like, same thing like with how I self define, or self identify? Yeah, like, the spirit sounds the same.
Yeah. And for me, it's, it's kind of with this, it was more like the feeling of before I left on my mission, like that faith step, because it was scary to step into a new space. But I had to, like, I guess, even like, in the restoration, Joseph Smith had to go through like that period of dark and like doubt, before the light came through, you know, and it's hard to move through that, before you get to the light.
Yeah, that's super interesting. I love that concept of it's something that I've just been thinking a lot about, actually, recently is that, what are the fruits of these decisions, and even to use like, an eye of faith a little bit and to look forward? And just kind of say, like, if I perpetuated this, like, what, what might that end up looking like? You know, in the future? Also, like, obviously, you don't know for
sure. But I think asking what are the fruits of this is one of the wisest questions that a person could ask, right? That's how Paul describes spirit best, I think in scripture, is he coined that phrase, and then you can you can kind of use it across all of scriptures. Like, what are the what are the fruits of, I mean, the reality is, like, there's segments of our lives where we, where we are wrong. And we just don't know, like, at all times, but doesn't mean like, we're all wrong, or
all right. Does that make sense? Like, there's just gonna be parts of us that we're just working through at different levels and different intensities, like all the time? And I think just constantly asking, like, Okay, what are like, you know, should I be like, if it's something that we're doing, should I be doing this? Or if I am believing this, like, what are the fruits of actually believing this particular? I mean, that's what Alma does, right with his
experiment chapter, 32. He's like, plant this in your heart, and see what it does, like, embrace this particular truth. Now, he's talking about a super particular truth in that chapter. But I think it's applicable to say, like, if I plant this one, and there is actually this phrase in there, where he says this, which is really interesting, someone pointed this out to me, like a year ago, and I was like, Oh, that is actually really cool.
Where he says, Okay, "now give, if you will give place that a seed maybe planted in your heart", or the seed in this one is, is a particular truth or idea, right? That's what the seed is being compared to the word, a word, right? "If it be a true seed, or a good seed", and he uses both of the words right there, a true one, and a good one. But then for the rest of the chapter, he drops one of those two additives and only keeps one for the rest of his
sermon. And he drops true. And he just focuses on good for the rest of the chapter. That's not to say that, like whether something is true or not, is not important. But I do love that he starts to emphasize Let's not talk about whether it's true or not. Let's talk about whether it is good or not. Is it having these good reactions? Is it like is it making our, are we more enlightened? Is it more delicious? Is it more like he's like, let's talk about that, instead of being so focused on
is this right or wrong? True or false? He's like, how about Is this good?
Like almost like spiritually stimulating.
Yeah. Right. And like he tells you what some of the fruits are there, he only mentions four. But Paul mentions even more, right? And you could find several throughout scripture, or just through your, you know, own experience and others, like people will use different synonyms, right to
describe what that might be. But like, I really, really loved that whole, and it seems like you know, those verses at the very end that missionaries love to use in Moroni, I sometimes think, Oh, I think Moroni was reading Alma right before he wrote this because he says this, by the power of the Holy Ghost, you may know the truth of all
things. And then he says in the verse right after, and I wish someone would have told me, oh, you can actually share with people the verse right after and your mission, verse six is good, too. Yeah, that's the one. He says whatsoever thing is good, is just and true. And so it kind of comes back to that same idea of like, what is it good? You know, what are the fruits of this?
So I'm an overly confident person, just by nature. And so I don't often worry, like, am I being deceived? But I've been told a lot that I'm being deceived by other people.
Yeah, me, too.
So Dave, what advice would you give for someone who's like being told by like, friends or family or loved one, that the choices they're making are bad, but they feel that they're good?
Well, I think that then opens up an opportunity for a person to just like, explore that. Right? Like, who like why does somebody have like the, the knowledge and know what, they could be being deceived? Right? Does that make sense? And so it's like, that's not cut and dry for you to say that to you. But I also think it's really healthy. Like y'all were talking about in some of your stories earlier, that is say, to begin that with like, well, it is a very likely possibility that I
am being deceived. You know, I am, I have been around the Sun 30 times only. So and my experiences are so limited in this world. Obviously, I am easily, I can easily be tricked and deceived. So I think it's healthy to go into it and just be like, instead of playing like ah ah wait, your you know, it's just like, okay, that's true. I could be and you could also be wrong to who are saying that to me? And most likely, we're both
wrong somehow. Right. And so I actually, I wish someone would never say that to somebody, because if it's a friend, they probably wouldn't say it to you. But rather like, let's begin a discussion about this. Let's engage, you know, in this, that's what, that's what I would think.
I have a lot of thoughts, and I might move into some tricky territory.
Go ahead, Charlie.
Okay. I think that's been most difficult for me when I feel like I've received personal revelation that's looking different from ever, like what everybody else believes, or like, current church teachings. I'm like, I don't like feeling like I know more about a gay identity than leaders.
Well, you do.
But that's, and then I realized, like, how could I not, you know, like, because I'm the one who is gay, right? Like, I'm the one who's seeking and asking these questions. So like, I feel like in a way, I'm entitled to revelation about myself, before the rest of the church is, is. Is that, am I allowed to say that?
Well, I mean, we don't want to be like, ahead of the church or counseling the church.
Well, that's not what I'm trying to do. But just like, I think, I think I was just so in this, like, I have to receive revelation from down the line, right? And then I get, I guess, I'm just saying, I got to the point where I'm like, I'm gonna receive real life revelation for me, and I'm not gonna, like put that on everyone else. Like, I'm not trying to, to be like, this is the great revelation for the
gays. But I can be like, this is the great revelation for me this year, because this is what I need to do right now.
Well, well, that's a story of like Cornelius in Acts, in Acts chapter 10, where he's like a Gentile who wants to join the church. And that chapter's, like for some reason, like really, like tells what time it is a lot. And Cornelia saw an angel, like a day before Peter saw his vision.
Oh, that's beautiful.
Because he was the one that was affected by it.
And the thing is, that's hard, though. And that was hard for me, because that comes with a lot more moral responsibility.
There you go.
Because now, because now I'm not living under the like a safe umbrella because I'm like, I could be deceived right now.
Right.
And then like, I think that's why it's so difficult. And that's why was so hard for me because like, I don't want to be wrong if I'm stepping out from this. And I also don't want to like, be like, Hey, everyone, like, you need to make this umbrella bigger. But I was like, this is where I need to stand. Does that make sense?
Yeah. And I love that you bring up Cornelius' story, because as you were saying that I was like, well, there's actually scriptural precedents for both, right for somebody like receiving, like a revelation that was like, contrary to like, typical thought. And there's also like, scriptural precedents for people receiving revelations that were wrong, you know, and so you either could happen. Right?
I guess just like, the trick is to engage with it.
Yeah. And the thing is, like with most choices, most choices can be undone.
Yeah. Oh, thank you. Because I was gonna come back to that. Thanks. Because I think that's something I had to learn to that, like, Christ atoned for me. Like I because when I'm in this space, where like, I could be totally screwing up and making decisions that are taking me down a wrong path. And then I was like, like, God's got me, you know, but like, if I'm like, trying to stay close to Christ, and I've really believed that repentance is real. I shouldn't
be afraid to move around. And like, make decisions.
And make mistakes even. Yeah, like, if you're petrified of making a mistake, then you never have the courage to do something that could be really good. Right? Different and helpful. Right? Does that make sense?
And I think. Yeah, and I think for me, I got to the point where I was like, the difference is, I'm not going to be like, I'm going to go do this sin. It was like, I feel like this is good. So I'm gonna, and I don't know, it's like, not a sin, just like an idea. Right? Right. It's not, it's not like I was like, I'm going to try to do a bad thing on purpose, and then repent, because Jesus gots me, right? Yeah, no, I yeah, it was more like, I feel like this is good. And I'm gonna try it out.
And if it is good, I'm gonna like thank God and the Spirit for taking you there. But if it's not good, I'm going to say Christ, I need you to pull me back or at least to a different spot.
That's awesome.
Yeah, I mean, I think as long as we're sincerely trying to do our best, like really sincerely, seeking out the will of God and doing our very best, you know, as we stumble and fall and tumble, I should have made it all rhyme, but you know, I think we're gonna be okay. Because, you know, we're, we're moving in the right direction.
Right. There's a difference between somebody like, trying to be rogue, and I'm intentionally trying to, like, do something different than I'm intentionally trying to, because I can give myself like scriptural permission to do something like that. And somebody who's just like, I genuinely am yearning to put my life into God's hands. That is what I am trying to do. And I'm not going to do it very well, a lot of the time. And but I like but I'm, I'm trying, I that's what I that's what I want.
That's where I want to be. And
Well, that reminds me of the fruits too. Because like, I feel like those fruits can come inside you. Like if those are your desires. That's how you tell if what you're looking for is is is good.
Yeah, yeah. And I love the idea of fruits, because it's like, Alma says, like, you'll begin to notice these things. Right? And then he says, and then a tree comes in, then the fruit comes on the tree. It's sometimes it's like takes a while for these things to kind of like, manifest like, wait, is
this is this right? Am I, so the idea of it being like fruits is actually like, interesting, because it's like, oh, those take a little bit of time, to like, to just like, work through and figure out and so.
I feel like sometimes I've had to be wrong to be right. Like, I've had to, like, go down or like move to like a testimony place where I was like, actually, this isn't it for me. And then I'm like, but this is like it but it helps me like find something better what I'm looking for, you know.
Yeah, I watched this, like conversation happen between, like a friend of mine that used to teach seminary with and one of our past students. We both taught him at different times. And for some reason, we were on a place that we were together, and just kind of like talking about the good old days, you know, and this kid said something to the other teacher, and he just said, he's like, I remember you taught me this, and this and this in class, and he's like, I remember it. And I've
thought a lot about it. And I don't think it's right. And he said back to him. He was like, Oh, I think I taught you wrong, because I've like, kind of like kind of followed through and saw the fruits of believing that particular truth. And I did not like, they weren't they didn't sound like Jesus to me, like the fruits that were coming from it wrong. And I was like, I think I said that I was like, I'm freaking love this conversation
so much. I love that they're both like one of them questions his teacher and says, like, I've like, planted that truth in me. And it's, I don't think it's right. And for him to admit and say like, Oh, me too. And I and I'm, I think I taught you wrong.
That's the opposite of stagnant. That's flow.
Right?
And that's so humble, too.
Right? But on both ends, I was just like, this is awesome. This is, this is faith right here. This is like, and it's and it's Zion. And it's faith community. And it's like this is like, I'm a really, really big proponent. This is second time I've said of like bringing this other people together and talking about them. By myself. I mean, you No, everybody knows, like, inside, you're just a basket case, right? And like, what you ate and a memory you had from when
you were 12. And like all of these things can like impact your emotions and your thoughts and your feelings like, so radically, that it's so nice for me to like, this is actually one of the benefits I'd see in like, were you talking about, like the revelation that comes through lines, like, I'm just like, I'm so happy there are both because I don't trust my own sometimes.
And it's also nice to just have something to like, bounce off of, and compare like both to and, and other people within my that I trust in love and just like. I you know, I'm genuinely I'm not, especially when someone's like, I'm not trying to fix anybody or I just let's
just talk about this. I think the spirit flows in situations like that, even in fact, the one that you talked about, with Cornelius, there is a line soon after that, where Peter and the other apostles make a major, where they make their major, like, policy decision change. Like it's one of the biggest in the book of Acts. And like three times in that chapter, Peter says, it seemed good to us and the Holy Ghost to make this
decision. Cool. And I'm like, you what, you just made a major policy change by saying it seemed good. But it's cool that he was just like, we did it because it seemed good to all of us. And the Holy Ghost. Like we like that's, and that's why we did it. That's why we're doing it.
Yeah. I love that. So we've been talking about people trying like with the best of intentions. And you know, it says in the scriptures that Satan actually is trying to deceive us. Right. It says a couple of ways that like Nephi talks about a couple ways that he tries to do that. And one is by saying that there is no devil, and there is no sin, and you just eat, drink and be merry
for tomorrow we die. And I really like this one where he says this is in 2 Nephi 28 again, he says and others will he pacify and lull them away into carnal security that they will say all as well in Zion. Yeah Zion prosperous, all as well. And thus the devil cheated their souls and leadeth them away carefully down to hell. And a couple verses down in verse 24, therefore woe be unto him that is at ease in Zion. Wo be unto him that cry at all as
well. The a will be unto him to Harken under the precepts of men and denying the power of God and the gift of the Holy Ghost. And, you know, I think that's one of the one of the chief ways that I feel like I was deceived in the past. And maybe now like, I just thought, everything's fine. And I don't need to do anything to
make things better. And I have felt so much more like enlivened, and lead, as I've like, noticed things that don't feel good to me, and then working to to build Zion in my sphere of influence in my stewardship.
Yeah, that those, like what Charlie was talking about earlier, the idea of God's got you, and how there is hazard in that side of the spectrum. And there's also the hazard on the other side, too, you know, does that make sense? Like, there's just like, you're gonna have a gutter on both sides of the street. And it's like, that's actually why I love I teach a world religions class, so and I just love all the
religions of the world. But that whole idea of the Buddha teaching about the Eightfold middle path, the whole like, idea and concept behind it is like, in the middle, you know, like, extremes are hazardous and dangerous. You want to try and find that place. But I think believing both those things at the same time, is to say, like, I could be wrong, and I could be deceived. God has me at the same time, everything's gonna be okay. Like, they kind of just provide this good playground. You know?
Like, sets a boundary, right? Like the resistance pulls you together, instead of pushing you apart.
Right? Right. There has to be tension. Like, it really is, like this really sweet place to have tension. It's just like, Oh, this is where, like it all the good stuff happens.
I think tension is how you get revelation like, cuz because you're not praying for answers unless you're feeling some doubt. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like Joseph Smith wasn't praying for an answer. Because everything was awesome. Like there was extreme tension. And when I think about myself, and like, coming out and trying to figure out who I am, and like, where I fit in the plan of salvation. It's like, I was
looking for answers. And I'm gaining personal revelation, because there was tension there. And if it wasn't there, then I would know exactly how much I knew before I started this process.
What I'm here to say is like this question, like, Am I deceived? Like, not a bad question?
It's like a cool question. Yeah.
It's like, it's like checking in with ourselves to make sure that we're that we're on the right path.
Well, and even Joseph's particular question, like we miss tell this story so often. And I'm like, can we let that narrative go because it's not nearly as good as the real narrative where he's like, which church is true? And is like that is that's that is so secondary to what he was doing, which is like, he's like, I was concerned about my soul. And that is such a better narrative. We had this boy, he was just like, I actually am genuinely concerned
about my soul. Like, and, and I want a healthy, living, vibrant soul. And like, and I need truth, I need something to help, you know, like, it's not right now. It's troubled that it's, you know, and so I really, really love that idea of somebody just like, I mean, that's just another way of saying, like, I'm genuinely trying, you know, it's just like, here's some genuinely want to experience life. You know, and like, what I mean by that, right now, I have this like working definition of eternal
life. I want to get rid of eternal life as an end destination, and start talking about it more the way the scriptures talk about it as like something we experience right now. Like I am experiencing eternal life, like I'm more alive to God. And I'm more alive to other people. Like if I'm feeling that and experiencing it. I'm like, whatever's happening to make that happen. That is what I want to have more of.
That's cool. So I was talking about when I was worried about being deceived, and had that conversation with Ben, when we were parked when we were parked outside outside of King Henry apartments. So they're very Provo. That was kind of like the era where I started, like, stopped feeling defective and started feeling whole that like I was, like, supported and whole as a child of God as I was. And then there was nothing
to change. And I ended up meeting with one of the the administrators on campus and was was talking to her and told her like bore testimony and like it really clicked and like both of us cried, it was so powerful when I was like, Look, the messages I get, tell me that there's something wrong with me that I need to change. But God is telling me that I'm whole. And it was just this powerful
moment. And then I graduated, I moved, it had been like a year and didn't like, never really thought about that conversation. And one day, she sent me an email out of the blue. And if it's okay, I'd like to read exactly what she wrote to me, because it like, sunk into me and grounded me and I go back to this all the time, every time I'm worried about like the direction I'm going. So towards the end of the email, she said, "I know I don't know how it
feels. And I can't appreciate what it's like to have a core element of my identity devalued or even made to seem shameful. What I do know is that personal revelation is real. And you have received assurances that supersede every message to the contrary, please hold on to that, come back to it over and over again. You are just as an all knowing, completely loving father made you, you know it, he
knows it. All those who have been touched by your life, compassion and friendship, know it too please do whatever you need to do to keep the memory of your peaceful, sweet assurance alive and active for those times when you are tired and feel despair. You can rely on that. And as you recall your experience, it will help you offer grace to those who say otherwise."
Can I kind of build on that.
Yeah, please.
So I recently gave a fireside.
Build a castle on it. A temple.
I recently gave a fireside for youth in a ward in my stake. And during the q&a, someone asked, you know what we can do to help someone who wants to stay in the church and keep their covenants but is likely going to stay single? Like how do we help them in a church that's focuses so much on the family. And so I talked about all my friends, Kevin and Allison, and how they've made me
part of their family. I told a number of stories and and then I kind of circled back I said, so to answer this question like, how do we like what do we do if someone wants to stay in the church but but is a single? And I said, what you do is you make them part of your family? Because we're all meant to be family. And then when I said that, you could just like feel the spirit in the room. And then the Bishop piped in, and he said, "Are you all feeling that?
Ben just said something true when the Holy Ghost is telling you that it's true." I thought that was a really powerful teaching moment. But from from the bishop to say, like, like, Are you experiencing what's happening right now make sure you're noticing this. And, you know, I've, as I, as I've aged and gotten older and had more experiences, I've started, I've noticed those moments more and more. Yeah, I just feel that I can get guidance and receive truth.
Yeah. And I feel like both of these stories go back to what you were saying about the community aspect of this. Because when I started coming out and even started having these conversations, immediately, I was hearing from other voices. And I think that was scary for me because I was like, What if these other people are giving me things that aren't true? But then I mean, we've talked about how to discern that. But then this lady that I met with one time sent me this
email that like was my rock. And it got me through the two hardest years of my entire life.
And, you know, I think we should Well, I know I've been wary of people who have like, told me things about myself, or like have told me what to do or like, explained me to me, I, people that have been more helpful or people who like, let me talk and explore me with them instead of trying to tell me about me.
Yeah. And I think that's what she was doing here. She's like, Hey, we had this moment of exploration. And here's what happened, you know? And it was cool.
Yeah me, I have used this line several times, it's just in my like, just my little cards, all my cards. And this is one I have to play sometimes, just to say to people, like I happen to be the world's foremost expert on me. So let me tell you how I feel and how I think and what I yeah, that was well said. And Ben I just wanted to this is not the topic of this, but I want to put an exclamation point on a text on what you said about...
An emoji. You know, like, when you like, click, and hold? As long as you don't have an Android because then it'll get texted over and over again.
People who have an Android can not do this. Like, I have been thinking so much like I think my dominant Thought and Feeling over the past like two, three years has been about that concept of us all, as a family. Like somewhere that was always the that was that seems scripturally to always be the idea. It's just like, it's all of us. We are all the human family. Together, somewhere along the way, someone wrote, families can be together
forever, and God bless them. And all of a sudden, our focus started to be on this just single nuclear, you know, family, like one line of lineage, right? We have forgotten the concept of the
whole human family. Like we were not a bunch of individual families like Zion, the whole Zion, which is the concept Joseph was obsessed with is like, all of us, all of us, like, every single one of us all together, you know, and I feel like that sort of family talk could be really, really healthy and helpful for people to realize, like, wait, the ancients saw, I said that phrase twice. I just realized the
angels. The first time I said, I sounded like I was a BYU guy or something like a professor or something that. I'm not that fancy. The old people who used to be in the scriptures they like, if you look like the promises to covenant Israel, particularly like the salvation ones are about being saved as the whole. Like, we've become so individualistic, that it's just like, I think we missed some of the power of ... anyways,
Oh that feels good. Yeah. I like that.
That's good to me, too. Let's plant that.
Let's plant that. We're planting it now. Plant it in your hearts, everyone. Yeah. Well, and and when you think about, like, even the last General Conference, they were talking about how the majority of adults in the church are single, that are unmarried. And then there's the whole question of like, what do we do with the gays like, what do we do with anyone? They're a part of the family or what have you. But if your parents get divorced, like, where's the sealing? Like, let's all go together.
Right? Stop worrying about like this.
Like, like, someone's gonna fall off the chain and break the chain, right? Like, nah, because we're a junior link fence. All right, we're a mesh chain. We're not like a line. Ooh, that's cool, right? Are you saying you want to be sealed to me?
Yes, we are. All of us are. Right, I really think I believe this concept, right, wholeheartedly. We either all go back together, or none of us go at all. Like, wholeheartedly? Yeah, yes.
Tell me how you came to that.
I don't know.
Because I think that like, even feels like foreign to me. And I feel like I believe some pretty foreign things.
I just feel like to me if you want to define what, what salvation looks like, nothing less than the whole human family together is is going to be fitting, it's not going to be enough. Like it's got to be every person and I don't mean like all the families and then that's also bring in the roads like but just like just like we all met are in it. Yeah, we're all every kind every every like, situation every
like, that's so beautiful. That is so like, I've just been thinking about this concept which might be like I don't know, this might be a detour. Little but not far.
Let's keep going. I'm loving this,
But obviously like right now, we've spent a lot of time away from our, like organized faith communities, you
Because Are you being deceived? know? Yeah. And that's actually been so nice. And there's been
Yeah. Right. Because you really because, so much benefit to that for me and I just have really liked it. And because because organized faith communities are clunky, right, because like, it's like, oh, I'm you know, and so it's like, oh, sometimes it's just nice to just be I'm a little more free spirited by nature. I don't like organizations. I don't like administration. I don't like meetings. I don't know. I just that's not my thought. And I'm
not alone. And maybe I'm drinking the kool aid of the culture of the world right now.
Sick of a nine to five. You want to work from home whenever you want. Always?
Yeah. Yeah. That's like the occupational part of it. Like, you know, then it comes into my faith. And anyways, it's just, but all those surveys now on religion are all saying the growing segment of religion right now is the nones. Right? Like n-o-n-e-s. But it sounds like Oh, great. We've got a whole world of atheists.
Oh, but nones?
People who have no affiliation? Yeah.
And is it okay, there's all these nuns.
You see how that's kind of problematic.
I wish the nuns were the number one growing. I love a good nun. Once on my mission, I saw this nun riding a bike around the courtyard of this church. And I was like, I freakin love that lady, like robes blowing in the wind? I just love her. So the n-o-n-e-s right, are the growing. But what's interesting is that spirituality is actually increasing around the world. And it's that, I mean, you've heard this before that it's we are a lot of people are spiritual, but they don't want a religious
affiliation. Right? And particularly the over the last year, you're kind of like, oh, true. That's actually, that's great. You know, I like that, like I, my spirit actually likes that. And our foundational story says that you can find God in the woods by yourself without a church. Right? Joseph actually went away from church to find God, which is interesting. So it's like, obviously, there's elements of that that are true.
But what is also true is that God has scattered the spiritual gifts among us on purpose, and it comes up in every book of Scripture, on purpose, the spiritual gifts are scattered among us. So religion is actually organized gathering, right? So the benefit to religion is bringing all the spiritual gifts together into one place. And what's interesting is each of the spiritual gifts are manifestations of the love and
character and heart of God. So you can't actually experience the fullness of who God is, unless you have gathered together with others. So because of that, no one, if someone is missing, then collectively, we are hurting. And collectively, we don't represent we don't are not representing God. And collectively, we're not understanding God, because someone's perspective and gift is missing.
Can I tell you something? I was talking to Sarah, my roommate who you know, and who's on his way over to talk to you right now. Love that guy. Oh, my gosh, that's him right now. Did you want him? Yeah. Should we just say, Can I do something or not orthodox Sarah, coming to come and talk about what we were talking about last night.
This is my first time on the podcast. So last night, Charlie was writing a new portion of his book. And he talked to me about one of my main mantras in life, to experience God through other people, other cultures, and through the wonders of the earth, through creation through, you know, whatever God has
created. I believe that the more that we can understand other people, diverse people, different cultures, the more we can experience what God has created, the more we can see him and his complexity and his true form. And we could see different sides of what God has created within all of us. Because I think yeah, I think that everyone has a little piece a little like sliver of divinity inside of them that that God has
has given to them. And the more we can, we can understand that like divine beauty in other people, the more we can see God in all of his forms.
Homeboy preaching.
Can you believe that like, like, all three of us came to that conclusion like separately, like I was thinking about that the other day, and I was like, Sarah, what about this? And he's like, I wrote that as an essay that got me into BYU Jerusalem. Like, I've always believed that. And now you're telling me and I'm just like, wow.
Can I share something that happened to me.
Yes.
Charlie and I were reading...
It better be a fourth witness to this or like, we don't want to hear it.
Charlie and I are reading Doctrine and Covenants 46, for the Come Follow Me readingy reading recently, and the like, the question for that section is like, who can come to church? Like who's allowed to come to church? And then the answer is, everyone has a spiritual gift. So we're talking about that, and it's really beautiful.
And and, like, I think we should be fighting to bring more people and gather more people, instead of finding ways to exclude people. Like we should be finding ways to like, because legitimately, if that is true, what Sarah just said, is true, then we desperately need...
Like we need to get everyone.
Right.
Or else we're missing out on God.
That and that was the vision from the very, very beginning. That was the intention and the vision from day one.
And that goes back to like this all as well in Zion. Like, if we are complacent with who's at church now, then imagine, like, what we are missing?
Yeah. If you've heard this talk before, but like Jesus was not a scandal, because of who he excluded. He was a scandal because of who he included.
Wow, that's good.
I know. Can I write that down?
Yeah. Like really? Like you've never said that before?
No, we're gonna make that a little quote and put it on our Instagram. So get ready. Check your feed.
Right. Isn't that true? Yeah. They like issued a complaint toward like...
He was so loving that they killed him.
Yeah, it was like, Oh, my God, like, yeah, no one ever complained and said, like, you didn't include anybody. You know, they complained, because
of who he included. That's just so it makes me want to say this is just too bold to say, it really was religious people who killed Jesus, whenever you were, people were near him, who had messed up lives, and who were broken, and who were worried and who were wondering, and who were like doggy paddling, you know, through life, like those are the people who felt super
comfortable around him. And so I want to say, if that same group of people does not feel comfortable in my church congregation, then there must not be a lot of Jesus in it. Because they probably should. And that's something I take like, super seriously, when like thinking what are you contributing to the culture of your faith community?
Yeah, I love that. This is cool. I love this conversation
Same.
I'm fine with it.
I'm wondering if I'm being deceived by you. But it feels really good.
Well, let's include everyone and see how it feels.
Yeah, I feel like it's nice. Hello, Zion. Come and join with us. Anyway, thanks for coming on. This is this is probably our longest thing. And it was so fun. I was like, you know, me and Sarah were talking about this last night and in walks Sarah.
Dude, I really should lock the door more.
Speak someone else into existence is what I want you to do right now.
We should have excluded Sarah. That's amazing.
Strangers on the podcast. Oh my gosh.
The diversity is lacking. You guys can all send us emails to complain. Anyway, thanks for coming on. This was awesome. Yeah. I love this like, like honestly like, amen, amen, amen.
Oh, thanks fo having me. Should I say that is supposed to be my line right now I really was thinking in my h art.
Like I want I just want to say like in the name of Jesus Christ but I don't know if I c n s
Thank you for joining us today. If you've enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving a review following us on Instagram or Facebook at Questions from the Closet r sharing this podcast wi h someone you love. And as alway , please remember that we do n t represent the Church of Jes s Christ of Latter-day Saints r Brigham Young University. We' e not trying to be prescripti e or tell anyone what to think or what to do.
You heard t ree perspectives. Actually four. You heard four perspectives. And there are many, many more We encourage you to listen to o her voices in here a wide variet of experiences. If you would ike to submit a question or sha e a comment about today's epis de. You can email us at quest onsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Unti next time