019 Abubakar on Bitcoin Core Secrets, Code Wars, Drama, and Lines He Won’t Cross - All In Bitcoin With CK

Honest is probably the recent offer turn debate. I think there is so much signal that was lost in all the noise. I think it's on the one hand to give some credence to the other camp around the criticism is it's definitely very good to keep the core developers in check and kind of the ecosystem in check around what are the motivations behind changes? How do people participate constructively? I think those are legitimate concerns.

But I think where it kind of got lost is all the accusatory nature around forming those type of arguments and the disingenuous takes that people had. And on the other side, I think it's also worth noting how to constructively approach developers because it's kind of a different world to a certain extent between those who use Bitcoin versus those who build Bitcoin.

And ideally, what you'd like to have is a collapsing of those two worlds where there's a lot more understanding between the two sides in terms of we're building this. we'd like to reach out and figure out what the pain points are. And we're using this and we'd like these type of things to be fixed. And I think that accountability factor just gets blown out of the water in all the noise that we've seen. Do you see notes as a potential hard fork? I knew you were going to go there.

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welcome to all in bitcoin i'm ubaka i'm excited to talk to you about bitcoin and more thanks for having me but first let's get to know you better with my 21 takes on you ready for sure what makes you trust code more than people i guess the reliability is probably the easiest i could say because you don't have to deal with the human element and all the dynamics that come with it. If Bitcoin were a superhero, what's its superpower?

I would say being able to enhance an individual's life through financial freedom, but also by increasing their opportunity set in terms of how they're able to communicate value globally. And you, are you the debugger nobody listens to? the one patching holes while everyone is arguing or something else entirely different? That's honestly, that honestly captures exactly how I am at home. We're five essentially. So

two older brothers, one older sister and one younger brother. And yeah, I definitely find myself a lot of the times being the one who tries to prefer solutions. And then everyone figures it out that that's actually the right solution after things have already happened. So. What do you watch for when you meet someone for the first time? I'd say there are mannerisms and I try as quickly as possible to dig down to find out what drives them as a person. How do you do that?

Through a series of questions, usually depending on the person. I kind of let the convo lead to that, but I like to find out people's motivations. The weirdest thing someone has said to you after learning you work on Bitcoin Core. They were like, are you a billionaire? I'm like, no. What were the topics of conversation at the dinner table at home? Oof. I mean, growing up, it kind of varied across my life. I think growing up, it was pretty challenging.

But nowadays, it's really about Bitcoin, how things are going, kind of checking up on me. What do you mean by challenging?

I'd say challenging in the sense that like Nigeria is not a, like growing up, depending on where and when you grow up in Nigeria, it's kind of the dynamics are pretty interesting of trying to just keep up the whole issues around inflation, issues around school, all kind of stuff. So I'd say that's kind of what the mix was. It wasn't necessarily like all rainbows. Did you have like a hard upbringing? Oh yeah.

From, I guess, both sides, like parenting wise and also like just the conditions in Nigeria. Your personal line between improving Bitcoin and messing with the formula? Oof. I'd say it's, I kind of think about it as striking a good balance because you don't want to kind of introduce unnecessary additions that will introduce even more fragility into the system. But at the same time, I understand that it's a piece of software that needs maintaining. So it's kind of like a give and take around that.

What do you think leadership should look like in open source? Ooh, I'd say really maybe three things. One is definitely leading by example. So try to be the type of developer you'd like to see in the wild. Two is try to be empathetic as much as possible to the developers coming up or at least the folks you're interacting with. And I say the last one is to try to collaborate as much as possible.

I think often so much, I see a lot of developers coming up with the whole solo mindset and open source really doesn't work that way. You get further along by being able to collaborate and being able to work with people. Any examples you can give us? Yeah, I'd say examples vary across some of the developers we've trained over time. We've seen the ones that have gone on to contribute like really deeply in Bitcoin Core are the ones that often do all those three things.

Leading by example, making sure that they collaborate a lot with people, especially in kind of like a mentorship role. And also making sure that they are empathetic. So a lot of the folks that aren't maybe not so nice to people kind of don't really make it that far. Because if you're not empathetic or if you like working solo, you don't make it? I mean, you could really make it if you're a genius. It's just that you'll be treated as someone who's not well perceived by the ecosystem.

It's kind of if you want to be an asshole genius, then it is still possible. Okay. The one profession you'd never want to do? I'll give a funny one and it's no job to the profession itself. It's for personal reasons. Probably architecture. Okay, give me the personal reasons then. Yeah, because growing up, I wanted to be an architect. And after discovering Bitcoin, I realized that would have been the worst profession I could have gotten into. Because it wasn't because I really was driven by that.

People just said, you're good at math, so why don't you do it? Okay. What's the dumbest Bitcoin myth you've heard? And how do you prove it wrong? Well, you have to buy one Bitcoin. I typically just send them a couple stats. and start having a combo around like Bitcoin, Satoshi's, dollar, cents, narrow, cobble. And what part of Bitcoin space keeps disappointing you? That is a deep one. I see the tribal nature on social media, specifically X. I think it's unhelpful on both sides.

So both from the developer camp and also from the, what I say, the wider camp of folks where there's constant misrepresentation of arguments, sometimes even just outright poor arguments on both sides. And it seems like sometimes there's like a deliberate effort to misunderstand the other, whereas it doesn't really make too much sense because we're all on the same team. Why do you think that happens? I think for a variety of reasons.

I won't talk too much around the motivations I think that drive both camps. I just think some of these platforms are designed to enrage people and kind of maximize for that type of engagement. So I think people fall into the trap, whether they're highly intelligent or even just calm folks. I think people just get into the whole mix of I'm on this side or on that side. Therefore, I don't like you. Tell me a childhood dream that came true. Wanting to help others, I'd say is the biggest for me.

And I'm glad I'm able to do so without compromising my principles or being an asshole. And honestly, feeling fulfilled. I think had I not been involved in the Bitcoin space, I would have probably been very challenged in terms of seeing not a lot of hope in humanity. Okay, and that was a dream that you had when you were a kid? Oh, yeah. I've always been, like I said, back to the question around the dynamics at home, always wanted to constantly be the source of solutions around people that I love.

So this is like maximizing that to like, I don't know, like 10,000 orders of magnitude. Where do you think that feeling comes from? Probably maybe to look at it from a psychoanalytic perspective, I think probably due to seeing, obviously being able to be an older brother to my younger brother, but also being a younger brother myself, I'm always kind of trying to balance out folks, their relationships and making sure that there's some sort of equanimity in the house.

Something you've changed your mind about recently. That is a hard one. I'd say maybe based on some of the convos I had when I was in Lugano a couple weeks back around the fact that adoption is not a linear thing. It's kind of a bunch of different dynamics that take part or kind of play out in the space at different rates. So things like Bitcoin being

used as a money, being used as an investment vehicle. I think I used to also fall into the of thinking about it linearly, saying we'll have an adoption cycle of being money and then investment or vice versa. I think all of that is happening all in parallel, just at different rates.

The most unexpected thing you seen in Nigeria Bitcoin scene I say honestly the share reception from not so much on the adoption side because obviously that makes sense given how crappy the economy is But I think more so around the reception of people wanting to be involved in the Bitcoin space more materially, like developers, even folks like influencers, honestly, taking up like Nostra and some of these other technologies.

I think I really underestimated how much people would resonate with this ecosystem. You mentioned that Nigeria is in a very bad economic situation. Could you elaborate a little bit more? Oh, yeah, sure. So for context, the current FX to the US dollar is around like 1,500 NARA to the US dollar. And in the last three years, we've devalued the currency over, I think, 70 plus percent. Other than that, we're in double-digit inflation over 20-something percent.

Separate to that, like two years ago, roughly, after the elections, we had an instance where the NARA kind of broke. So we had three different versions of the NARA, the physical notes, which were the old and new notes. They all had different dollar rates. We also had the eNARA, which has been a total failure. We've also had the eNARA in bank account. So it's kind of ironic. Starting up in the space, a lot of the arguments against Bitcoin were that Bitcoin is not fungible, no one takes it.

But ironically, the NARA is less fungible than Bitcoin now. So some of the folks have come to see this, but I see a lot of the dynamics are around like the economic hardships in Nigeria. There's just so many things going on and earning in a currency that's constantly being devalued is not ideal for people. So that's why I say like Bitcoin really makes sense to everyone there. Yeah. Who do you watch closely? I'd say. And this is more, I guess, on a mentorship level is probably.

a handful of Bitcoiners and folks even outside of the Bitcoin space, mostly because I resonate with those people and kind of the values that they carry around. So folks like Jack Dorsey, Jeff Booth, Preston, and a bunch of others too that come to mind. I think the biggest thing for me is making sure that I stay grounded, stay humble, stay hungry, also don't get distracted,

stay focused, and also stay highly principled. If you couldn't do one decision in Bitcoin history, which one would it be and why let me take a different approach honestly i wouldn't change anything okay i was gonna say craig right but i think sometimes how original yeah exactly but i think sometimes it's easy to look at adversity or challenges and be like i wish we didn't have to go through this but i think it's a necessary part of bitcoin's resilience and kind of its journey

into being anti-fragile. What's one thing you haven't said out loud, but you know you should? Wow. I'd say maybe on a personal level, I'm very content with the set of decisions I've had to make over the last five years being involved in the Bitcoin space. Like truly, I think back then facing all those challenges and even up to pretty recently, it's very easy to kind of get bogged down in the weeds around maybe things that you feel you don't have yet or maybe challenges that are

just coming and being like, why me and all that. But I think I've come to realize that everything obviously happens for a reason. And more specifically, all the challenges are necessary for you to get to that next phase of growth. So I welcome all that adversity. So for me, I'd say being content with all the decisions I've made so far. Can I ask which one was the most difficult decision you had to take? why am I still involved with this space? What still drives me?

And what are the things I still like to see done in this space? What have I done that isn't congruent with the goals I have or what are ways in which I can improve myself? I literally ask myself that question every single day. Okay, and the answer? The answer, honestly, for three of them. So I bucket into three. So on the first side is definitely a lot of constant revaluation around maybe the approaches I have toward people or how I say things or even messaging.

The second one for me around the motivation is to kind of dig deep to figure out whether I'm still on the same path that I'd like to be in terms of helping people getting to that next phase in terms of providing more developers to the space, all that kind of stuff. So those are kind of the answers I give. But yeah, it kind of shifts from time to time. Some interesting answers. Can you share a moment when being visible came with a cost?

Oh, yeah. all the time. Like, I mean, at home, I don't go out as much. I like to watch where I go, like even announcing if I'm going to be in a place or not, just because of the perception people have around anyone that works in Bitcoin, especially myself. So it's one of those things where I don't want to put people that I love in jeopardy of being like, you know, kidnapped or anything like that. So I try to watch what I say, how I say it, especially even around like the

government and things around that. So I'm very, very cautious about how I move and where I move. How is the government in Nigeria? It's kind of like every other government, to be honest with you. It's not. I know a lot of people have this whole perception around like highly corrupt, trying to always go against the people. But at the end of the day, the dynamics are felt by everyone in Nigeria.

Like regardless of whether you're rich or poor, like you still feel the fact that the economy is not ideal. So I think it's just the sheer amount of dynamics in terms of the government trying to do well with the people, but also balancing all the issues that they have to, because it's a lot of dynamics. And ironically, a lot of the people that always bash the government, whenever they're given the opportunity, they end up doing worse. So it's one of those things.

How come a cat video gets there way before a remittance does? um i don't know i think sometimes it's one of those things where certain dynamics present certain opportunities to take the four uh the four as opposed to others so it's kind of difficult to tell why things like that happen in that succession so it is what it is but then you think it should be at least at the same time? I think it honestly depends on whether people resonate with the tools that are available

for them. Because early on in the space, I think we were very enthusiastic around the remittance angle and it's definitely increased in terms of the flows. I think that the challenge for a lot of us was predicting, which I mean, no one should be predicting, but I guess for those that were, is just because people aren't, let me say it this way, just because there's a solution already for

people doesn't mean people are going to use it immediately. Like it has to still be convenient at the level of what they're used to. As a self-taught coder, how do you shut down a Bitcoin skeptic fast? Honestly, through a variety of ways, it really depends on the person I'm talking to. If it's a person that likes to see Bitcoin in action, then I go the route of just showing them Bitcoin.

All the way from the code to just Bitcoin being sent and received, all the way up to sending it to a bank account. Because typically people, unless they see it in fiat, that they're like, it doesn't exist. So try that approach. And for someone that's like numbers driven, I tend to give them the numbers because sometimes being in Bitcoin land, we feel like people should know. But at the same time, like Bitcoin is still very, very early.

Most people absolutely don't know what the hell Bitcoin is still. So doing that approach. And if there's someone who is more interested around the human angle or the human story of that type of story, I typically tell them about all the solutions that have been built specifically by the Bitcoin majority. So folks from my part of the world, or even just personally telling them how Bitcoin has changed my life because it does.

And for me, that angle is really around the fact that growing up, I had no bank account up until I was 18. So I started using Bitcoin because right about the same time I discovered Bitcoin and then I started using fiat like with a bank account. So letting them know that difficulty. Yeah, after Bitcoin. I have a very weird understanding or dynamic with money, which I think is good. I'm glad that's how it happened as opposed to the other way around.

So yeah, letting them know like the convenience of being able to hold your money, go anywhere in the world, still be able to spend it, not thinking about, you know, the bank is shut down, I can't deposit or withdraw and things like that. So I see those are the approaches typically. Be trust with Jack Dorsey and JC, what's the most absurd thing you've done to impress them?

I mean, maybe not absurd, but I think just making sure I execute on the mission. Because the difficulty is with something like BeTrust, there are just so many perspectives around how it should go. There are also so many distractions and expectations for better or for worse from a variety of people. And it's very difficult, obviously, to stay focused and highly principled

to do the right thing. And I think, honestly, I can say over the years, it's been a challenge, but I'm pretty confident in what I've been able to deliver, especially over the last one year being in terms of you. So going from essentially not too much activity on the BeTrust site to over, I think 33 grants now given, around 1.7 mil. Half of that was directly to developers.

And we've gone from essentially a couple hundred developers to in the thousands now in terms of the developers in our community.

So pretty happy with how things are going, especially with the fact that we have all the grants open templates things around the developer day that we had last year we going to have again this year So I think we in a stage where we have the right type of structures the right type of I guess mechanisms to internally with the team Because we have grown the team as well with like the engineering lead, leading VTrust builders, all that.

So we're definitely in a good spot to get to the next phase of like collaboration and being really a model grant organization. How do you manage to do that? How do you manage? I mean, it's pretty impressive. I ask myself that same question daily. But I think the biggest thing for me is a couple of things. One is being able to put trust in people, being able to work. Putting the right one. The right people. I think the biggest challenge for a lot of folks is wanting to do everything by yourself.

But I can tell you that does not scale and is honestly impossible. So figuring out how you can bring in people that are just as driven about the mission as yourself, but also giving them the opportunity to grow as individuals in that role, and also giving them the space to also provide kind of solutions for problems that you have. So it's not like fully top down. It feels more collaborative to them. I say another one really is just staying focused and staying principled.

It's part shutting down social media when you know it's getting too toxic. It's also surrounding yourself with people that keep you accountable. They're able to call you on your BS if you're starting to veer off course. And I say really the last one is being honest with yourself. It's very easy to lie to others, but it's very difficult to live with yourself if you're lying. Yeah. What's your daily routine, Monday to Sunday?

I mean, I try to work as many hours as possible, but now in the last, maybe I say a couple of months, I've kind of figured a good regimen. So I wake up typically around like five-ish, pray either get back to sleep and wake up at nine again or just power through 10-9. I try to do some exercise now recently. I found that it's a lot more useful.

like starting out as a developer i thought that was nothing i'd ever be involved with but now i figured you know making sure i pray on time things like having that mental clarity giving out like an hour in the day around the morning times to just think about what i'd like to do for the rest of the week or even the next couple of months so a lot of planning and then typically after like lunch it's more about getting back to work and then i kind of close off work i guess by you know six ish

roughly. And then everything after that is trying to wind down and planning for the next day or just ripping on Call of Duty. Okay. And you do that six days per week? Five out of the seven. I think for me, the weekends, especially the last two, three years, I've always allocated to just free time, making sure that I wind down things that have frustrated me through the week, kind of revisit it and realize it's not that big of an issue typically.

So yeah, I try to make sure no meetings, no strenuous work in the weekends. Thanks for sharing, Abubaka. Those were my 21 takes on you. Now let's talk Bitcoin Core.

Sure. What do you actually do and who decides you're a Bitcoin Core developer? Honestly, it's kind of a loose term that just describes the level of engagement you have with Bitcoin directly. So as long as you've pushed code to Bitcoin, essentially you technically are a Bitcoin core contributor. Now, the degree to which you're a contributor is kind of where it gets foggy.

So it goes all the way from a single change to constantly working on a daily or even on a monthly, all the way up to being a maintainer. So it's kind of like different concentric circles around that. So for folks like myself, I'm more around the PR reviews. So both providing code, but also reviewing most of the work, honestly, I do is reviewing people's code. and figuring out, you know, where are the issues, if there are any, trying to help out with that.

And in terms of generally speaking, who decides if you're a Bitcoin core maintainer, technically you decide. Oh, really? Because all you have to do is, you know, contribute to the project itself. I think the bigger question around how it gets merged is probably where people find it more fascinating. And it's not as straightforward an answer as people would think, where it's like, you do a pull request and then there's a set committee of people that go, hey, we like this, we don't like that.

But it kind of just determines, it kind of depends on which maintainer, whoever has merge access. So the ability to actually merge the code into the code base is really for that pull request. So sometimes it's one maintainer, sometimes it's a different maintainer, depending on which part of the code base you're touching, whether it's the network code or the wallet code. So it kind of depends.

And in terms of the people that are actively giving you feedback, it also depends on who is interested in that pull request specifically out of all the contributors around the world. Your thoughts on moving the Bitcoin debt mailing list to Google Groups? You know, I've gotten back and forth, to be honest. I don't have a well-formed answer around that. I think whichever one makes the most sense, really, for the community. I don't have one specific answer one way or the other, to be honest.

You said you taught yourself to code Bitcoin and that memes helped. Yeah. Yeah? What memes do I need to study?

honestly it's kind of a shame like i don't think we have as much of a large meme culture maybe it's my for you page has gotten messed up over the years but going in like 2017 days 2018 it was very meme heavy i think maybe a lot of the memes now are just like number go up and trying to you know dunk on others but i say the biggest memes for me on the dev side is really things that have to do with really quirky things around bitcoin or code specifically like c++ or something like that

So maybe just over the years, I've kind of drifted away from that community. But I'd say those are the kind of memes that teach you about, like, you know, making fun of how the compilers work or quirky aspects of a language, things like that. Okay. So can you meme the block size wall for me? Oof, that's going to be a hard one. That would be controversial. But I'd say it's like trying to make sure. It's hard to come up with a meme on the spot. But what I would just say is maybe this.

It's one aspect of the ecosystem trying to capitalize on the money side of Bitcoin versus those that still feel like you should stay true to the kind of the goals of Bitcoin and what the end game should be. And Bitcoin governance? Or is it more of a meme threat? I'd say governance, it's interesting. I've kind of shifted my perspective around governance, generally speaking, with Bitcoin. And then going into the space, there was some naivety on my end in terms of where the power lies with Bitcoin.

But at this point, I don't even think there's a specific pocket of the Bitcoin ecosystem that holds ultimate power in terms of deciding what goes in, what doesn't go in or what the trends are. I think it's there's just so many involved processes. All we have to do really as a community is to make sure that everyone is kept in check, regardless of whether you're a miner, a developer or just a pleb. What's a Bitcoin PR and how hard is it really to ship it?

It's just, so PRS stands for pull request. And it's typically how, it's just a language for, or how you describe like an actual change that you make. So typically any product in the open source space is either on GitHub or any sort of platform that allows you to do version control. So using Git. And what you do is basically just write code and you essentially push that code. So you make an actual request to push that code.

So the pulling part is the project maintainers pulling that code into the code base. Now, in terms of the difficulty, I think the most difficult thing is just for people to do it. I think the biggest obstacle to pull requests really are just contributing in general when you're a developer, just yourself. What's it like being part of the Bitcoin Core family? Does it feel like a family? I mean, it does.

Over the years, it's been interesting because a lot of the FUD around contributing is that the ecosystem is so toxic, has driven people out. Maybe there is some truth to that to a small extent. But I think being involved since like 2020, I've seen a lot of welcoming folks that are really OGs in the space. And I've still seen it to date. Like, it's not like things have changed. It's honestly even better, to be honest with you, to be a Bitcoin developer right now than it used to be in the past.

Not because in the past it was horrible. Like, it's got even way better now. I think a lot more people are open to mentoring as opposed to just like the solo devs. So what's the difference between now and everything? Oh, yeah, like the openness to developers.

I think now, especially for developers from my part of the world, I think given all the work we've done with Btrust Builders and Btrust, there are way many, way more African developers that are working in like Bitcoin Core and some of the other projects.

So it's a lot easier to get the hang of things because offline you're able to reach out to people, kind of get mentored on the side, as opposed to back in those days where it was just like a random anonymous dev, which, you know, I technically failed in being anonymous dev, but at least that was the plan at that time. Do any of you actually meet in person? Oh yeah, a lot, a lot of times.

And over the years, we've tried to make it a lot more, a lot more of a deliberate effort to connect developers IRL because it's difficult sometimes to remember that there's another person on the other side of the keyboard. And for us, it really has helped a lot to get those people to become a lot more empathetic and being a lot better at collaborating with people. So I think it helps with the icebreaking.

It also helps with providing that human angle to developing Bitcoin, like sharing the same challenges they face. I think having that middle ground for a lot of developers has been really really helpful Have you ever been threatened personally I would say I wouldn call it a threat necessarily but I have had instances where I like

yeah, I need to be a little bit more careful. Can you tell us about it? I wouldn't, it wouldn't be wise to get into the details. No. Okay. Has it been resolved? Yes. Yes. No, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. What are the measures in place now?

for me personally is being a lot more tactful like i said about how i present myself i talk what i say like i'm definitely less um open mouth to say the least i'm a lot more strategic now especially over the last couple years i say the last one really is around um you know security and things like that so i'm pretty aware of things around that any other measures oh yeah like

keeping the circle of folks I'm around a lot smaller than it used to be. I think people underestimate how much information you give out, especially when you have like a large base of people that you're constantly interacting with personally. So I'm very, very careful about what I say to people and kind of the information I divulge about myself personally. Like, I mean,

typically it's not like I'm a party animal or anything. Like regardless of Bitcoin or anything like that, I don't go out typically, but now I'm even more, I guess, strategic around that. What's one thing Bitcoiners always get wrong about Bitcoin core developers? That they're evil or that they're trying to make a crazy ton of money and they don't care about Bitcoin and they don't use it as well, which is kind of ironic. A lot of the folks I've seen, not to call names, but it's interesting.

Like on the one hand, we have quite a lot of folks that you can tell don't use Bitcoin, especially how they talk. Like you can typically tell if someone hasn't used Bitcoin by how certain they are that Bitcoin is such a great technology to use that they technically haven't used it. Because anyone who has used Bitcoin knows that there's so many issues with it with regards to like UX and the tools that we have. And it's a constant challenge.

So it's very obvious from the way people critique Bitcoin core developers that they don't use Bitcoin. So it's kind of ironic to critique folks that use it on daily like core developers. One core debate you wish never took off? I wouldn't say never took off. I would say maybe it was a lot more honest. It's probably the recent opportune debate. I think there was so much signal that was lost in all the noise.

I think it's on the one hand, to give some credence to the other camp around the criticism is, it's definitely very good to keep the core developers in check and kind of the ecosystem in check around what are the motivations behind changes? How do people participate constructively? I think those are legitimate concerns, but I think where it kind of got lost is all the accusatory nature around forming those type of arguments and the disingenuous takes that people had.

And on the other side, I think it's also worth noting how to constructively approach developers because it's kind of a different world to a certain extent between those who use Bitcoin versus those who build Bitcoin.

And ideally what you'd like to have is a collapsing of those two worlds where there's a lot more understanding between the two sides in terms of we're building this, we'd like to reach out and figure out what the pain points are and we're using this and we'd like these type of things to be fixed. And I think that accountability factor just gets blown out of the water in all the noise that we've seen.

Is the OP return debate primarily a technical issue or is driven by deeper ideological principles? It's definitely deeper. I think it's, it always, so this is how I see all the debates typically that happen.

It always starts off highly, highly technical on like mailing lists and then it spills into some of the GitHub action and then some folks just take it to X, which is never as productive, but there are some merits in terms of just, making people aware of those debates, I think is kind of the best utility for X and some of these other platforms. And increasingly, I've seen Nostra is way more of a source of signal when it comes to

trying to figure out those type of things around social media. But the biggest thing for me is it starts technical, then it goes completely tribal. And then it goes to a point where they start asking even more questions that are deeper, that obviously we need to contend with about what is Bitcoin to

begin with and what is the source of value. So that's why I say it's a bit healthy to a certain extent and like all the toxicity that gets thrown around but typically it's highly technical then completely tribal and then averts back to being technical so that's when things die down and why do you say that Nostra is a better platform for that oh yeah because Nostra doesn't have the mechanisms that drive that innate kind of tribal or less civil manner or kind of method to conduct

yourself. I think for something like Noster, just because you're able to zap and you're able to actually communicate that this monetarily speaking is something worthwhile, it's a lot less intense in terms of wanting to drive that type of engagement. To be honest, most of the engagement

around Noster that picks up is useful content. So it's a completely different world to X where it's the opposite, like the most insane outlandish thing is what picks up steam as opposed to something sound so inside bitcoin core give me the good the bad and the unresolved uh the unresolved i think is around how to constructively engage with people that aren't um contributors i think it's very easy for us to fall down the path of kind of creating walls where people aren't able

to engage unless they kind of cross over that i think it's very very easy to start getting to the habit of justifying gatekeeping to a certain extent. And that's very, very dangerous. So that's what I would say is kind of on the iffy side. On the good side, I'd say, again, how welcoming people are. Like, it's completely refreshing to see compared to where things used to be. And I can imagine for folks that even came way before myself and some of the other earlier folks in Africa,

like, I'm pretty sure it was way worse if what we saw was kind of the way we saw it. So I'd say that's kind of what the good is and kind of where the not so good is okay what's taproot progress or just for show again not to be controversial i'll definitely give a more politically correct answer i think the way to look at it is like i said bitcoin is a piece of software so there's nothing like an end state for bitcoin i think the end state for bitcoin is for it to constantly

provide value to people as a money and i think for something like taproot it's it was a necessary change that needed to happen i think the biggest thing for people to put into context is bitcoin is never a perfect code like you're always gonna need to have compromises and trade-offs especially when you're shipping code because bitcoin upgrades at that degree don't happen as frequently as possible so there's a lot that goes into how you want to present it to make it as optimal as possible

for people to also review, but also to get in. And like I said, the biggest thing out of all that really is around making sure you're not introducing more fragility needlessly into the ecosystem, specifically through the code side. So I think for something like Taproot, it was necessary.

It provided so many changes because it was a bunch of changes involved with like the signature scheme all the way up to spending mechanisms and addressing some of the long standing issues around spending Bitcoin. So yeah, it was a change worthwhile.

In terms of, I guess, the second part of your question, which is more implied is, I I think some of the things it introduced that makes it possible to do all the, you know, brain dead stuff that people like talk about with meme coins and DeFi stuff is maybe an unfortunate consequence to a certain extent. But again, compared to what life would be like in Bitcoin land without Taproots, I think it's still worthwhile. Do you see notes as a potential half fork? I knew you were going to go there.

Not really. Like, here's the thing folks have to understand. I think that's useful context is unlike the Lightning ecosystem where it's spec and then implementation with Bitcoin, it's the opposite. It's implementation, then spec. And to a certain extent, now at least there's a lot more spec before implementation, but it's very difficult for you to unseat Bitcoin Core as the reference implementation that it is.

But also because there are some things that have seeped into the protocol side that are just quirks around how C++ works over the years. Obviously, the ideal state would be to kind of decouple that, maybe moving towards Rust with some of the work around Rust Bitcoin.

But I'd say in terms of like the near future around Noughts being the reference implementation, even achieving 50%, I don't think is as realistic, unfortunately, as a lot of people think it is, because there's so much historical artifacts around requiring to use Bitcoin Core. And the implications of having a lot more people using Noughts as opposed to Core is just, I think, completely unrealistic.

how much of bitcoin's drama is actually about code and how much is about everything else i say code maybe one percent 99 is about non-code related stuff and it's kind of understandable like we're human beings we're not like ai or robots coding up this thing so there's a lot of emotion that goes into it and i see like i said it's sometimes it's malformed arguments that are packaged as like the most insane way you could communicate to a human being and sometimes it's

really well thought out constructive arguments that honestly don't get pushed into the foray because of the nature of X and kind of social media amplifying the worst out of people. So that's why it's a shame. Like, unfortunately, I think some platforms that are really popular and kind of ubiquitous for people to communicate with in the Bitcoin ecosystem, like X is just the worst place you want to have a debate.

And then if you want to go IRL, it's just, again, egos get involved and people aren't as honest as they could be. So really, I say the best type of arguments is really like the one-on-ones with people when there's like no cameras, no likes, no retweets.

yeah it makes sense which upgrade or proposal got way more hate than it deserved i'll give two like for historical reasons i say segwit very recently like there were some interesting angles that people were sharing around like how it's proposed i think so i'd say this way there's a lot of historical revisions that happen with every price cycle for obvious reasons people want to justify kind of their shift in sentiment and make it seem like

they've always been consistent. So I say around that segment time and kind of how things unfold that there's always with every cycle, people trying to revamp how history went out in terms of who won, who didn't. And I think the most recent one for me is around Taproot. I think for some weird reason, it seems like, so I'll give it in two sides. Like one, there are folks that, again, like I said, lean into the awe. There are some changes that introduce the whole

degeneracy, like they like to call it with, you know, the whole DeFi crowd. But at the same time, I think during the taproot activation or around that period, I think the biggest unfortunate thing was seeing how long it took to agree on how to deploy it. It was one of the weirdest things I've ever experienced in this space where there's a piece of code or a set of changes, I should say, that everyone agrees makes sense and we should include.

But how you want it to deploy that became a huge, huge point of contention, which was interesting to see. Why do you think that is? I think it's natural because to this very day, we don't have a very straightforward way that changes get implemented at that degree in Bitcoin, specifically in Bitcoin Core.

And I think a lot of what happened with Taproot was a way to address that in real time, which is why I just blew out into like months and months of constant conversations, bike shedding and all of that. So it's going to get better, to be honest with you. I think it was necessary for us to get to that point. And sometimes you need to see like how ugly a process is for you to be more active around fixing it. I heard it got implemented really quickly and there was no enough conversation around it.

That's an interesting take. Like I haven't come across that perspective. That is very interesting. But I guess maybe towards the end, maybe to a certain extent or maybe at certain times, I guess, as the review process was going. But the impression I had throughout that whole process was around like the different type of implementation paths with like BIP 8, 9 and all of that. And, you know, some of the activation mechanisms that were used are proposed at the time.

So maybe on the outside, it seemed pretty quick. I'm glad that was how it was perceived, I guess. Okay. So to wrap up. Yeah. What are the things Bitcoin Core actually got right? Oh, being able to reflect the natural dynamics that you would expect. in a project that involves so many people and that touches so many lives.

Now, specifically what I mean is there isn't, like I said, a top-down on a PR-to-PR basis of who gets to dictate whether there's a change that makes sense or who gets to kind of walk that author through the changes they need to make. And honestly, it reflects the natural thing you would expect, like whoever cares about that part of the code base is who's most involved.

And sometimes something as little as a developer just being there at the right time to see that code change, Because contrary to a lot of mythos around Bitcoin, Bitcoin Core has a lot of activity. Like it's not one of those things where we wait every four years and then we decide there are changes that need to be made. Like on a daily, there's so much to keep up with.

So I think the natural dynamics around who gets to lead PRs, who gets to lead reviews, and then eventually having the maintainers merging, that is probably the most natural way you would expect that to go with kind of the implications that Bitcoin has on a global stage.

what's your biggest fear for Bitcoin Core over the next five years like I said we have a walled garden I think it again it very very easy and we seen in other ecosystems and open source where it starts off with good intentions around hygiene when it comes to how you talk to people or what is a productive conversation what is spamming ironically

And I think it's very, very easy for developers that are highly involved or even maintainers to start to be a little bit unnecessarily antagonistic to people that maybe aren't constructively criticizing them and marking that as spam or locking conversations and things around that. I think it's going to be one of the bigger challenges for us, even more so than like funding developers to put in code changes.

I think we have to be really, really careful about that human element around creating a division between the people that use the code versus those that build it. Right now, it's still not as bad as it could get in my perspective. So I think it's one of those things where we have to be really, really careful. It's very easy to justify things. Any idea how to create a language to communicate between both sides? I think, so here's the thing. It's not so much like a well thought out plan.

I could dish out where people, as soon as they do this, everything is going to be fixed. I think it's more on the human side. Like we're human beings. I think you just have to hope that a lot more people are honest with one another, especially how they engage. And they are able to stay principled and focused. And that's all it's going to take really. It's not a thing where there's a on and off switch in human beings where they could be rational versus irrational.

As a non-technical person, I think you need to leave the technical stuff to the technical people. But I also think that the technical people should be able to explain what they are doing in words that we get. 100%. I like that you brought that up because it's often overlooked. What I would say to the non-technical crowd is the moment it becomes obvious that a person is unable to communicate in layman's terms what they're trying to do, then there likely is either one or two things.

One, maybe they don't understand what the hell they're talking about. Or two, they're trying to hide something. So typically you're able to call out BS when it comes to highly technical folks. It's very easy for a technical person to hide into all the technical jargon and make you feel like, oh, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. But a lot of that is kind of diversion tactics on the side of developers.

And I see on the other side too, again, to answer your question directly, I think the best language when it comes to how to interact between the devs and the non-devs is the language of empathy. Like at the end of the day, like for technical folks, they have to remember that folks you're talking to in terms of the non-technical are not as directly involved with the code base.

So there's so much that they're definitely unaware of, not because they're ignorant or they're not intelligent, but because they're not aware. You're working on code and they're not. And I think on the non-technical side as well, I think really it's around trying to be as straightforward in terms of the communication and kind of the points you're trying to make. Don't beat around the bush with trying to beat them down to make yourself feel like you're on the same level.

Like regardless, we're all on the same level. Like the whole division around, oh, I'm a dev and you're not a dev and there's like hierarchy doesn't make any sense. And that's like the worst case scenario for Bitcoin land if we start to think from that perspective. What's Bitcoin's biggest risk? Maybe three things.

one is for us to lose focus on why bitcoin is a valuable technology like the moment we start to think about it as it's just valuable because it's valuable like we've completely lost the plot i think we have to always remember that it's money that works for the billions around the world that currently do not have money that works for them and the moment we lose sight of that as the core value and the price action being a reflection of that success then we're finished i think secondly

is if Bitcoin is not used as money. I think that goes without saying it's kind of to the same first point. And I'd say the other one really is around general apathy in this space, specifically around people thinking that Bitcoin has a final state or Bitcoin is finished as a software. I think that's very dangerous terrain because software is never finished. It's either maintained or not maintained.

And I'd say the last one for us is creating an ecosystem that rewards inconsistent principles or rewards folks that are not as highly principled as they could be or should be to drive this thing to still be around for the next generation to enjoy to degrees that we currently not even enjoying. So I say those are the big ones. It's really around like us losing the soul on the ecosystem, losing that focus around it being money. And worst of all,

I think just being content with the state of things. Many non-tech people talk about ossification. What do you think about that? As I put simply, what I do agree in terms of the ossification argument is there's a base set of things that Bitcoin should be doing that should be kept in check, that should be messed with on the protocol level side. But at the same time, it's one of those things where, again, it's a

piece of software. There's definitely going to be a lot of changes that will contend with either the protocol side or even to a certain extent, not the protocol side, and then dive deep into conversations around that same thing we saw with OpraTern. And I think it's on the one hand, you don't want to lean into Bitcoin is perfect because that's a lie. I think there's no way

around that. Bitcoin is way far from perfect. And at the same time, you also don't want to get into the weeds of like justifying DeFi or all the things that we as a community decided a long, long time ago to separate ourselves from the wider crypto space and being that source of signal.

it's very easy to say Bitcoin doing 10x more is good because we have 10x more. But that's like dangerous thinking in my perspective, because introduces a lot of things that we see in the crypto space that introduces all that kind of fraud and misaligned incentives that we honestly

don't want in the Bitcoin space. So when it comes to the ossification debate, it's about maintaining kind of a balance around being realistic about the software not being perfect, but also recognizing that you don't want to needlessly introduce things just because it's an introduction and people can do way more with Bitcoin now.

You mentioned just now that we decided a long time ago to separate ourselves from DeFi. Could you elaborate a little bit more? Oh yeah. I think the biggest reason maybe would be, and this is me obviously talking out of turn, given the fact that I wasn't there to begin with. So this is like pre-2017 is, I think after a certain while, it became very obvious that the whole blockchain conversation became super saturated.

So it was about like, how do you differentiate the different ecosystems around Ethereum, Bitcoin, and the rest. Some ecosystems like the Ethereum side were just like, Bitcoin's a pet rock, were better because we could do 10x things. And now like fast forward, like the Solanas and everyone else was kind of a copycat.

Over the years, what we saw is the Bitcoin crowd entrenching themselves around things like the fundamentals of money, creating a better money, being very cautious about introducing changes, like I said, that are just changes that provide the ability to do 10x more things without any utility and being highly focused versus being distracted, in my opinion, with ICOs, all that kind of fancy stuff going on. So when I say we made a calculated decision, it was both explicit and implicit.

I think one reinforced the other, maybe the latter to the former, around making sure that we don't get into the habit of justifying all these things or being involved with all this and creating a parallel ecosystem that's just as fraught with fraud and kind of horrible things going on.

So for us with the Bitcoin space, like it's been very obvious over the years, like we further entrenched ourselves as like Gigi used to write about like with a innate, what I say, immune system for the ecosystem to make sure that we're healthy and not like getting into all the issues that we've seen with crypto. Yeah. Finally, what's your red line?

If this ever happens to Bitcoin, I'm out. Oof. Like I said, probably the first two points I mentioned around like the worst case scenario with Bitcoin is, or maybe three, maybe three things I think. And they all have to happen, to be honest, for me to leave because I try to be as hopeful as possible until it's not. And I can't do that. So it's one is us losing focus around Bitcoin being a money that works. Like that is a complete red flag for me and no go.

Two is getting distracted as a space in terms of where we see things or how development is done or the kind of companies that are coming out and all of that. Like if consciously as an ecosystem, we decide to leave that thesis of Bitcoin is money and we just move towards Bitcoin is valuable

because it valuable that a complete red flag for me And I think another one is if the entire space just gives up using Bitcoin as money and we all just end up huddling until infinity I think that a huge red flag for me And I say honestly the last one is maybe on a personal level like if it just doesn feel as it used to or it does currently where I actually driven to be involved in the space then definitely obviously going to leave What do you think about all these companies like strategy?

Large Bitcoin treasuries. Yeah. Yeah, I'd say it's a necessary function of both, I guess, the success of Bitcoin as an actual thing that's valuable. And the very mere fact that companies now see it as a viable way to kind of make their fiat productive and kind of change course, honestly, with a lot of companies that maybe were previously a bit stagnant in terms of their growth and how it's been able to grow their kind of their shareholder value, quote unquote.

And I think that the second aspect is it's something you would expect from a money that works so well. Like I said, the price is just a reflection of how well it is a better money than everything that we have currently.

So it makes sense that it combines that ability really for companies to be able to tap into that rise in price, but also make sure that they're not losing due to fiat and obviously the inflationary nature of fiat, but also the fact that fiat keeps getting devalued vis-a-vis Bitcoin. So I think it makes sense.

it's a logical progression. I think it's interesting, the debate, to be honest with you, because like five years ago, a lot of the conversations, at least with some of the VCs we were in touch with, like on the Curse of Capital side, was around Bitcoin treasuries, actually, because on the continent, we still have this issue where there are a lot of fintech companies that have dollars trapped, in my opinion, in bank accounts that are just completely

unproductive. And I say trapped because due to the fact that they're founders in places that are high risk, most of the times they get debanked. So not only are you keeping dollars that are doing nothing, most of the time you're actually moving those flows from different bank accounts. So it's like the most unproductive thing you could possibly do. And the thinking was, if you're able to introduce Bitcoin into their treasury, then you're able to provide a way to kind of make it more

productive for the companies to compete with one another. And again, the biggest thing for me is I think Bitcoin is the best version of fintech or is the natural version of fintech. So naturally, if you want to be competitive, I think it makes sense to have your treasury in Bitcoin.

So I think the bigger question or the more implicit question really to your question, around what does Bitcoin treasury companies mean for, again, the soul of Bitcoin and the trajectory in terms of the focus as a community? Do we focus more on doing all we can to maximize price action or do we still revert back to, in my opinion, the true value around money?

I think it's still yet to be decided where we'll go, but I'm definitely not of the opinion as maybe some have on X of like strategy being this monolith is going to destroy the space. I think what people have to remember is these are still folks that resonate with the core value of Bitcoin. And it's too early to call it out and say, you know, it's all over. Things are going to go horrible.

I think we'll have to watch and see what happens with these large companies that have so much Bitcoin and whether they'll go the path, like I said, of just thinking about Bitcoin being valuable because it's valuable versus it being something useful for humanity. Yeah. Well, thank you, Abu Bakr.

thank you for your time and great conversation where can people find you argue with you find your work uh if you want to argue with me in real life is the best i mean i don't involve myself with any debates online at all i made a conscious decision three years ago exactly to the date uh separate to that like nostor uh x i'm i hate 1999 yes one of those things and separate to that like if you're looking on the dev side like my GitHub is zero and dash 1729 and then if you're looking

for me to think about larger things that are happening in this space I say the BeTrust blog we like to be as open as possible the recursive capital blog as well and also my writing around Forbes typically documenting what's happening in the Bitcoin space specifically in Africa and some of those other parts so I say those are places you can find me again thank you for your time for this generous conversation I really learned a lot and I can't wait to have you back. Thanks for having me.

Really enjoyed it.