Wilt's 100 Point Game Inside Story with Chamberlain Biographer Gary Pomerantz

all together. And Karen Palmerans is my guest on this kind of shortened version of All Ball because this is the anniversary of Wilt Chamberlain's one hundred point game, and so instead of getting into the back and forth about about Will's all all time greatness or maybe even talking about present day selection spots for the upcoming n c A tournament or the NBA and how we evaluate current teams. Of course, there's all these nonsensical historical arguments about who's

the top ten player who's not. I just thought we should get some perspective on something which is really one of the maybe the most remarkable record in all of sports. You know, some of these records are going to be or have been broken, right from Babe Ruth than Roger Marris obviously to Henry Aaron's record. Whether you think that Barry Bonds broke it on the up and up, I

do not. I still consider Henry are in the all time home run king um and I think that Roger Maris is still the single season home run King that said, a hundred points in a game is in the an NBA is never going to be topped. It's just not you know, if Jordan couldn't do it, if Kobe couldn't do it. Um, it stands the reason that even Steph Curry couldn't do it, even though it feels easier in terms of three versus two and the volume of possessions

in the pace of the game. That said, uh, it's a record that we don't know a ton about, right, Like if I was to ask you about the Hunter point game, you might know is in Hershey, Pennsylvania. You remember the world Chamberlain holding up the hundred on a piece of paper, and outside of that, you really don't know anything, right, So let's dig in. Let's find out. The man who wrote the book on the point game is Gary Pomerans. He joins us now on All Ball.

So Gary, this, Uh, this book is amazing because it talks about something it's probably I don't know, top five most reference sports moment, sports stat sports accomplishment that there I believe isn't any take footage of like what is there actually footage of the game. No, all that exists because there were no TV cameras. There is the fourth quarter tape of the play by play calling w c AU radio Bill Campbell made the call, and that's it. Other than that. I mean, this thing was like a

sunken galleon just resting on the ocean floor. Everyone had heard of it, as you say, but nobody knew anything about it. So so why what what led you to want to write write this book? So? When I was a kid, I was in l a and, um, you know, in the early seventies, I saw this old, muscled up Will Chamberlain playing for the Lakers, wearing his yellow headband, you know, um, defensive player primarily shot blocker, rebounder, And I'm thinking, how did that guy score a hundred points?

Of course, what I came to find out it wasn't that guy has scored under points. It was an earlier version of that guy seven one two and sixty pounds ran the floor like a train. Um, you know, I mean, I would go so far to say, is that Chamberlain um a decathlete basketball sensation? If you judge athleticism purely on the criteria of size, speed, strength, and agility, then Chamberlain might have been the greatest pure athlete of the

twentieth century. And if not, he's at least in that conversation. So decide, Okay, I want to I want to write this book about this moment where there is very little historical record. It's not that everybody doesn't know it exists, it's that there's just very lowest what's the process, like, how do you how do you even start such a project? So the first thing to do is find the players who were in the game, because they're the central figures

in the event. And then it was finding you know, people like Harvey Pollock, that noted statistician forever part of the NBA for sixty years. He was a statistician that night and pr guy and everything else for the threadbare

operation of the Philadelphia Warriors in UM. And then I even put in a note in the Harrisburg newspaper, Harrisburg being thirteen miles away, it's where the Nicks stayed that night when they came to play in Hershey, UM, asking anybody if they were at the game, to reach out to you by email, phone, whatever, and they and I heard from maybe ten twelve people how many of them

had actually been there? I couldn't tell, but there were a few that clearly were there because their stories were interlocking and overlapping or corroborating other stories I'd heard about the game, like, this is like detective work. It is like detective work for an unsolved crime. Well, I think the Knicks did view it as a crime. They knew that if this guy scored a hundred points, people will be talking about it sixty years later. Why did they

play in Hershey, Pennsylvania. Well, the NBA was not the NBA of today. Today, it's you know, glamour, glitz, exploding lights. Back then, it was a lounge act. It was a league in search of itself. The old joke was that the p A announcer would introduce the starting lineups and then would introduce each fan. There's Doug from Hershey and Phil from Harrisburg. I mean, there weren't many people dug in in that crowd. They said four thousand and twenty four.

But even that is suspect, I think because I know of a number of kids who snuck into the arena and the usual time tested ways, and I know that Eddie Gottlieb, the skin Flip Flynn, owner of the Philadelphia Warriors, you know, famously inflated his crowds and got he as he was called, he was round, but his crowd counts never worked. Four one to four four thousand one four. That's the official attendance in Hershey, Okay, so you're starting

to kind of piece things together. Obviously Will no longer was no longer with us um Who who is the best in terms of the players, who had the best kind of clearest recollection with the most I want to say integrity, maybe credibility. Well, you know, I also wrote a book about the crash of a small commuter plane, and you know, there were mostly survivors, there were some who perished in this crash. And I would go to one,

then an interview, then the net. What plane? It was a delta commuter an Ember one, twenty twenty nine people aboard going from Atlanta to the Mississippi coast, an obscure plane. No one famous on a twenty nine aboard a crew of three pass singers, and it crashed and the people had time to get out, but they had to run through fire, and ultimately ten died and nineteen survived. And I spent time with eighteen of the nineteen. There's always one it doesn't want to be interviewed and piece together

what they saw, what they experienced, what they knew. This was about three years post crash. Well, here's a basketball game now that I'm trying to reconstruct forty years post crash. One of the most interesting people for me to interview was Darryl Imhoff, the former center at Berkeley. Won gold medal with the nineteen sixty U S Olympics team in Rome, and Darryl had the unenviable task of covering the Dipper that night. And he told me that, you know every

march onet. In other words, the eve of the anniversary of the hundred point game, he would break out into hives and get rashes, knowing that people were gonna call um. Darryl only played twenty minutes of that game. Uh and uh and felled out. He felled out, and that meant the Knick's next tallest player was six ft eight rookie Cleveland Buckner, who was kind of built like a flagpole, you know. He was very thin and and couldn't hardly

muscle up to will but im Hoff. I met him in Eugene, Oregon at the US Basketball Academy where he worked at the time. Darryl has since sadly passed away, but there was an open court there as he was giving me a tour of the place, and I said, Darryl, come here for a second, and we went down into the key. I said, I want you to show me how you covered Will. What I really meant to say, has tried to cover Wilt? Uh that night. Now, Doug, I'm five eleven. I'm a poor stand in for Wilt.

But um him Off was first. He played the Will character, and I was him Off. He said, Will would lean back and it was like a tree was about to fall on me with his upper body leaned back, and Um and he leaned back into me. Then we switched positions and he became him Off and I became Willed. He said, Will be down low here, and I remember the key was the lane was only twelve ft wide then, and in part because of Will, they widened it shortly after to sixteen. But when Wilt's got a twelve ft lane,

he can be out of the lane. Take get the ball, take one step, a long lunging step, and duncan He's right there. William Off showed me how he took his left foot and sort of tried to wedge in Will's left foot to keep him from turning in. And then he took his knee and sort of put it in and buckled my left thigh. And then he took the point of his elbow and put it between my shoulder blades. I'm gonna tell you, forty years later, he could inflict

pain still with that. I mean it hurt. This is what he tried to do to Will Mutt, do anything he could to push him away from the basket. Of course, when Amo fouls out. The Knicks had another six ft ten inch center named Phil Jordan's pretty good player, you know, not very big either. I mean he's six ten but about two and ten pounds. Um. The problem was he'd gone on out on a late night bender the night before,

and he was vomiting at the hotel Pan Harris. So anyone's gonna do much good playing against Will in hearsty. So as Will's point point total is climbing climbing, um, the Knicks just surround him. And Paul Arison, the great Hall of Famer who played for Wild's team, the Philadelphia Warriors, told me he said, if if somebody had walked into the arena, they would have thought the Knicks were way ahead because they were stalling, they're running a weave, they're

doing anything to keep the ball from Will. And they would have thought the Warriors were losing, because as soon as the Knicks got the ball, the Warriors would quickly fall him. So it became a more of a chess match. And and you know, as I say the Knicks, they're they're intensity, their sense of dread intensified as this game went on. Was was it was there a point where the Warriors decided to go for the hundred? Like, was it before the game he want Will to try and

see how many he could score? Or was it just the process of the game play and holy crap, world can get a hundred, let's keep feeding in the basketball. Well it was the latter. Um. You know, the Knicks were not a very good team. Earlier that year, they've given up sixty three points to the Lakers Jerry West. The year before, they've given up seventy one points to Elgin Baylor of the Lakers. Jack Kaiser, a writer in Philadelphia, wrote, you can find better benches in Central Park. Um. You know,

so the Knicks. You begin, we weren't very good. They were missing their center of Phil Jordan's. That's a problem. But what what what people little consider about Will's Hunter point game is that the teammates need to go along with it. I mean, they need to subvert their ego, right,

they need to give up the ball. And with seven and a half minutes ago, Harvey Pollock, the statistician, slides a sheet of paper over to Dave Zenkoff, the Zinc the Great p a announcer, and Dave Zinkoff says, ladies and gentlemen, Will Chamberlain has just broken his own scoring record. He now has seventy nine points. Now everyone has context, because this is not a time where you look up at the big board above the court and you see

number thirteen A is you know, seventy undre? Is there any possibility that they inflated, as you said, they inflayd the attendance, that they inflated Bill's points? No, no, they didn't. And and you know, it's it's kind of fun. This game has been launched into sports mythology. People don't believe it happened to People told Will, I was there the night you scored a hundred of Madison Square garden, that kind of stuff. You know. Um, people want to be

close to great moments such as that. So no, it did happen. And it was not fifty dunks. Will It was running the floor. Will was scoring on putbacks. Will it was scoring on so called dipper dunks. And with forty six seconds to go, Um he scores. And you can hear Bill Campbell on the tape rebound. You know, look and Bill out to rook lick into Chamberlain. He

made it. He made it a dipper dunk. You know, the fans are over the all over the floor, and that was the sons of the chocolate factory workers sweeping under the court to celebrate with will Um. He also made his free throws that night, that two. That was that was really the kind of the big difference was he was a poor free throw shooter, and in that night he made a much higher percentage of free throws. Well yeah, thirty two. And he was shooting him underhanded.

He was shooting modern and he looked ridiculous. I mean, he bent down low, his knees flared out. He looked like an adult trying to sit in a Kindergartener's chair. But he made thirty two. By the way, Guy Rodgers and Paul Eirison also shot them underhanded at that time. Uh So, if there's any real miracle in hershey, it's not. The wild scored a hundred and said he made thirty two free throws. He'd scored seventy eight in a three overtime game earlier that season. And you know, you think

about seventy eight points. A few of those shots that rolled out, if they go in, he makes a few more free throws, you know, in that game he's up to ninety and then all bets are off. So it had been prophecied that the young champ Lynn woods for a hundred points in a game. And and the thing is is Wilt was a luminous figure at that time. You know, he lived off Central Park in New York and drove down to Philadelphia for games. Really, yeah, you

can imagine how popular that made him with teammates. And he had so he lived in it. It's an hour and a half, right even, I mean, and then probably even longer. But the thing is is Will had a fancy sports car, sports car that he drove at high speeds so whatever it would take you, and maybe I don't know how fast do you drive, but it would yeah, well it would take will longer or less time to get there than it would me. Um. He owned a racehorse, He owned a custom made Bentley. He co owned a

Harlem nightclub called Big Wilt's Smallest Paradise. And you know it featured the likes of Red Fox and Edta James and Cannonball at early and Wilts there in his fine suit as the greeter. And he's moving through that club like he is all of New York and and so so he was an outsize figure at this is you know you think of of sports stars as celebrities today, he was already a celebrity in nineteen sixty two. And and the dated I mean John Glenn orbited Earth ten

days earlier. This is the middle of the Kennedy in the abbreviated Kennedy administration. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live. So how is how is the accomplishment received? Well, it was like the Mighty Oak fell in the forest in the middle of the night, and no one heard, you know, I mean, Harvey Pollock was was there writing for the

Associated Press, the United Press and the Philadelphia Inquirer. There were only two writers there, neither from New York. No TV UM, and it took a little while for working to get out, you know. It was it was like they were waiting for the wagon trade or the pony expressed to show up with the news. Um. But you know, Bill Russell's reaction was, well, the big fellow finally did it. And uh. For the longest time, Will did not embrace

this performance. Um. He thought it fed the notion that he was an individualist only interested in patting his own stats. In fact, in the locker room after the game, Al Addles, his teammate, then told me that he remembers Will just staring at the stat book and thinking, just shaking his head. And Al said, what's a matter of big fella? And Will said, I took sixty three shots and Addle said, yeah,

but you made thirty six of them. And it was only decades later when Will began to understand what he'd done. I mean, as the baseball star of the Red Sox, Ted Williams used to say he wanted to walk down the street and have people pointed him and say, there goes the greatest hitter who ever lived. Wild came to realize that as he walked down the street, people would point in him and say, there goes the guy who

scored a hundred points. Who who Who's who's cursive or whose writing is on the famous piece of paper that says hundred points. Well, so that's Harvey Pollock. So Harvey was in the locker room and there was one photographer there, actually there were two, one from the Harrisburg Paper, but had other assignments, so he left after the first quarter. Well, that left one off duty associated press photographer named Paul Vats.

He wasn't just any photographer. He had won a Pulitzer Prize the year before for a photo he had taken of the young President John Kennedy walking on a path. Was with the former President Dwight Eisenhower at Camp David. And uh so he's there with his ten year old son, taking him there for as a gift for his tenth birthday. And at the end of the third quarter, Bathist told me he said to his son, you stay here I'm

going out in the car to get my camera. So he opens the trunk of his car, grabs his Cameron comes in. He's got twenty shots and he's only got one roll left. He wasn't planning to work that night, so he plants himself under the basket and he gets a few game photos, and then he goes in the locker room afterwards and says to Harvey Pollock, Harvey, you think we can get Will to pose? And Harvey, thinking fast,

said hey. Hef to Jim heffern In, one of the film one of the two Philadelphia sports writers there that night, you got a sheet of paper I can borrow? And Heffernan gives him an eight and a half by eleven sheet, and Harvey, in a brainstorm, writes one zero zero, gives it to Will, and Will holds it up. Now that's become maybe the most iconic basketball photo ever. Um and

it it's really those stage, completely staged. It's it's a great photo because if you look on the wall behind Will, you can see his trousers and a jacket just hanging from hooks. He's on a solitary bench. He's sitting there, his knees are up in his chest. He's his face is covered with sweat. He's sort of smiling and cheapishly. You can see one of the good luck rubber bands he always wore at his wrist. It's it's that great moment. It's the Dippers moment. It's the night Will scored a

hundred points. And that's why that photo I think we'll live forever. He wore rubber bands on his wrists. Well, he wore rubber bands two on his socks to keep them from falling down during games. He it's something that dated back to high school. And he kept two spares, one on each wrist. So you had quitters. That's not quitter when you pull up a sock and won't stay up.

Quitters back in the day would stay up, so he needed That's that's amazing, That's that's really a marketing so um so, yeah, it's it's the tree that fell in the forest. Um uh so that how did that year end up? Because again, it's it's just such a weird moment that everybody remembers. Will average fifty, okay, and I think only five rebounds and he had a hundred. But it's like the complete opposite of now where the only thing anybody remembers is who actually won the title. How

are the Warriors that year? Well, they were good, they were you know, they won forty nine games. They were forty nine and thirty one. They finished eleven games behind the Celtics. They went into the postseason then lost again to Bill Russell. Um. Uh. And you know, by the way, there is one statistic from that season, Doug that people don't know, and they should know because it may last longer than the hundred point game and uh. And that is that he averaged that season forty eight and a

half minutes played per game. Now the game, as you know, it's forty eight minutes minutes. They were overtime games. There was a triple overtime game and another overtime game. He only missed eight minutes and thirty three seconds of the entire season. That's how is that possible? Well, it's possible because the referee, Norm Drucker threw him out of a game with eight minutes forty three seconds left, and so

he never came out of games. Before the season, he told the new coach, the college legend Frank McGuire, a dandy from Greenwich Village, to coach, you know you want me to play. Um, I can't help this team sitting on the bench. And besides, if you put me on the bench and then bring me into the game back in, it's gonna take me three minutes to get this body warmed up. So he was like, okay, Wilty, you'll play

every every game. And so he did. You know you think of time management of players, you know, keeping their minutes down, sometimes not playing them at all. Just didn't happen then, So he played all but eight minutes in change of the entire season, never came out in eight games other than that one time when he was thrown. That's more mind blowing than anything I've ever heard. Yep,

ever I've ever heard. That's that's incredible. That's incredible. If you get doing any NBA player today, you probably get a lost it the players. I'm not playing Tuesday. It's the best with my best, my dream to never come out. Um. So he couldn't beat the Celtics. And my ley father was a basketball coach. He had the opinion of Will that he wasn't a winner, that he wasn't a big game player, that Russell was. When when you're researching Russell. What was the general opinion of him, other than his

incredible physical dominance. Well, the thing about Russell was his shock blocking and defensive skills. Will it was an offensive player. He had his defensive moments too. Um but um, you know, Russell was surrounded by a constellation of stars. Will had good players around him at different times during his career. At the end of the Lakers when he won his second and final title, Jerry West and and an old

Elgin Baylor. But yes, and he was old too, yeah right, and and um you know when year Will playing for the Philadelphia seventy sixers led the league and assists and won a title. Any crowd leading the league and says me, he said, that'd be like Babe Bruce leading league and sacrifice bunts. Um but but um, the thing about Russell

is Ross Russell traumatized shooters. I remember I interviewed Pete Newell for this book, and he had um coached Cal back in the day Russell was He's playing at USF and he said Russell would come like almost out of the shadows and block shots of his best shooters. And and it's so traumatized Cal's best shooters that they weren't the same for another three or four games. It's like they still feared Russell, who's not even in the game. It's gonna show up here and block their shot. Um

Will traumatize people with his offense. And this year, nine sixty two, the big scoring sensation was the rookie Walt Bellamy. He average, He was one of five guys to average thirty points a game that year. And when you know, Will, Will ramps up his intensity when he plays against somebody who's getting a lot of attention. So here comes Bellamy to center court, shakes Will's hand and said, hello, Mr Chamberlain,

I'm Walter Bellamy. And Will shakes his hand and says, hello, Walter, you won't get a shot off in the first half, and Will blocks his first nine shots inside the free throw line. Now they come back out for the second half tip, which they did then and uh they and Will looks at Bellamy and says, okay, Walter, now you can play and wild out scores a fourteen and wins the game. You know that that was a quintessential Wilt moment.

The goliath syndrome. You know, seven ft one, but he needs to be bigger, and he pumps up himself and there he is. Hm um. All these years, all these years moved What what is the most fascinating takeaway that people will read this book and go, I mean, the stat obviously blows my mind. The idea that there's no live video of it, only the fourth quarter recording, like all these other things. But for you, with all the time and research you spent, what's the what's the nugget

that somebody's gonna walk away going that one? I had no idea. I didn't see coming, and I can't believe. Well, it's not so much a nugget as it is context, the symbolism of the game. People view it as a carnival act. It was not a carnival act. What people little remember today, particularly young fans, is that in those early years, the NBA had a racial quota that limited the number of black players to just a few per team.

And uh, the Philadelphia Warriors had three black players in that game, Will Chamberlain, Aladdles and the guard Guy Rogers, who had twenty assists at night, almost all of them to wilt. And what Will did that night in Hershey and by averaging fifty a game that season was to symbolically blow apart the quota. This league was not going to be a white man's enclave anymore. M. I didn't know the quota. I mean, there's there's all these all these incredible things. You didn't know, uh um about it.

There were there were quite a few players, black players playing in the Eastern League getting fifty seventy five bucks a game on the weekends, who were far superior players to Um. You know, the NBA players on the bench, the white guys, and some of them in the starting lineups as well, And there was a lot of pain in that for them. These interviews I had with some of the early black pioneers in the NBA. UM, it's important for us to remember this. It's really Chamberlain himself

is such a mythical figure. Right. You have the hunter point game, you have the bragging about the ten thousand women. Now I'm learning about the four D eight and a half minutes. Um, I didn't know. Like he lived in New York and played in Philadelphia. Those things are amazing. You mentioned that it took him years to really embrace the Hunter Points. Did anybody tell you why why why he eventually? What was the moment or what was the reasoning behind him finally embracing it. I think it was

a gradual pros says. It was almost like when he came to embrace it, it was like a father embracing his long estrange son. You know that, Um it had meaning and and it was a profound experience for a lot of people. For Will, it was just one more mega scoring night. You know, the numbers were astronomically that season he averaged more. He scored more than fifty points

forty three times that year. So when he goes into the fourth quarter with sixty nine points, as hard as it is to for us to just put our rapp our arms around that, you know, it wasn't that uncommon. You know. You think today, with the change in technology, what would happen if an NBA player goes into the fourth quarter with sixty nine points? I mean, fans would be tweeting it all over the place. ESPN sound trucks would be circling Hershey Arena if that happened there, although

it wouldn't happen in Hershey. Now UM technology would lift it um in a way that Will's hundred was not lifted. Look when Kobe scored eighty one points in a game in two thousand six, that two against the last place team, the Toronto Raptors, fifteen minutes after he scored his eighty one You could buy a DVD of it online, right, And and I wish we could have had a DVD of Wild's hundred point game. On the one hand. On the other hand, it's it's it lives in the imagination.

It's launched into mythology, you know, it's it's a part of Americana. Now, it's a piece of Americana like Andy warhol soup games. You know, Will Chamberlain's hundred point game. It's. Uh, it's a moment that I think the Golden State Warriors, the lineal descendants of Will's Philadelphia Warriors, should embrace more. They should, they should, um, you know, promote the fact that it's their guy, Will Chamberlain, who later, by the way, moved out. And after he scored a hundred points that

season ended. The team was sold to San Francisco and they became the San Francisco Warriors. And the next year Will for that team in San Francisco average forty four point eight points a game, and then thirty seven, and then you know, another season, half season, the average about thirty six points a game. Just still astronomical numbers, not fifty, but still statistical outliers in the you know, in the history of the NBA, numbers that only Will Chamberlain could

have produced. Amazing. I was thinking Rushmore of great individual single game accomplishments. It's on an it's it is I cannot I'm trying to think, like you know, I'm trying to think if there's if there's who, what the other three would be? In American sports, Yeah, I mean GAYL. Sayers had a game the running back of the Chicago Bears, and I think it was N three, playing on a muddy,

rainy day, and Wrigley Field scored six touchdowns. You know, um produced three hundred and thirty six all purpose yards returned upon eighty five yards for a touchdown, caught a pass. I we just had one of those, one of those games. But basketball allows numbers to be built to the stratosphere in ways of oports don't. And and you know, baseball

guys not gonna hit twelve home runs in a game. No, Reggie's Reggie's three home runs in the World Series is is probably baseball's moment that compares and and maybe but three versus a hundred. I mean, I I understand, I'm I'm just like on the fly thinking what possibly could match up? What like? That's that's how powerful this moment is. There really isn't anything. And it's not like, well, there's a couple of guys that had ninety, Like nobody at ninety,

nobody in five, nobody in eighty two. I mean, you know, Kobe's eighty two is like the new base camp from which to climb up Everest to get to you know this, but you have to have three point shots even to make that happen, right so, and which Will didn't have Will did have a twelve foot lane, right so, Phil Jordan, The sheer volume of shots is remarkable, the volume of free throws, you know, so he shot with sixty three shots and thirty two free throws. Correct. The whole thing

is nuts. It's nuts, and and some of it's just the magic of one hundred, you know, um, in our culture, it suggests a perfect score on a test a century. You know, there's something golden about it. No, seven doesn't do it. His teammates would would point out that he got called for defensive goaltending three times in that game, so really you scored a hundred. Yeah, that's amazing. Um, Garry, thank you so much for joining me. This is fascinating to anybody who loves the game and maybe even history.

Like it's it's more of a historical piece that just about sports, right, because you're pay being the picture of a completely different era at a moment in time which everybody knows but doesn't actually know. Is that is that a fair fair to say? Yes, fair to say? And that's why I went after it in this book World ninety two, because, um, it matters. That's a moment that needs to be uh understood, not just known, but understood.

I mean the idea that Will Chamberlain goes out to you know, the land of the Amish, um to this utopian chocolate town, a company town in Hershey, and and does you know commits really a revolutionary act that makes a statement about race. Um is amazing. It's amazing, Garry. Thank you so much for your time and I really really appreciate it. I enjoyed talking with you. Thanks for having me on. Thank you here. Yeah. What an interesting look, right, and a historical moment that you know of, but until

this pod you didn't know about. Help you appreciate, help you enjoyed it. My thanks to Gary for sharing that time with us. Reminder you can pick up his book on Amazon or go to Barnes and Noble, or of course there's the Audible books as well. Reminder of the Doug Gotlib shows daily three to six Eastern time, twelve to three Pacific on Fox Sports Radio. The I Heart Radio app where you downloaded this podcast, you can down load that as a podcast as well. Thanks so much

for listening. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is Elball