Remembering John MacLeod; Golden State issues; Grad transfers; Auburn Asst. Steven Pearl talks Final Four run

Seeen Pearl is gonna join us. We'll talk about his personal journey to becoming an assistant coach, playing for his dad, what this has been like being beside his dad as a player when he got fired at Tennessee, what he did one when his dad went to TV, and how he's climbed the ladder at Auburn to be under the defensive guru if you will for the Auburn Tigers in the SEC Tournament championship and Final four run. But I want to start with a guy who passed away this

week at the age of eighty one. His name is John mc loud and um kind of quick rundown of John McCloud. He was the head coach at Oklahoma with Alvin Adams. He then went to the pros and was head coach of the Phoenix Suns, coached in what many people believe to be the greatest NBA game of all time for overtime NBA Finals game against the Boston Celtics. He was later the head coach of Dallas Mavericks in the New York Nicks. And he was my head coach

at Notre Dame. And while I would be honest, like he really unique career path right, Like he was a boxer, he was not a basketball player growing up, and then he was a high school coach before he became a college coach. So just unique in terms of the comparison to my life growing up at a basketball household. That said, what what basketball lost, maybe what society lost was a complete and total gentleman. And some of these things are

kind of funny and clever and interesting. And I'll have some of a couple of my former teammates on who are on the bigger and brighter things since playing at Notre Dame. But I first met him or first talked to him on the phone in ninety four I got home from a b C D camp. Back then there was Nike and a b C D. We were uh Sonny Mcaro, ABC d kind of group. Our high school team AU team. Sonny had sponsored us back when he was at Nike, and we followed him to Converse and

then to Adidas. Got home from abc D, which was at fairly Dickinson. Year before, I hadn't played as well at Ypsilanti. I was young, and um, I was okay. And then I started getting recruited by a couple of high majors. And then Notre Dame called the first day I got home, and I'll never get the phone call. Uh, doggie, coach John McLeod, head coach of not Tre Dame, how'd

you like to be a member of the Irish? And I was like, coach, I have no name is a grade school And he said, good tomorrow we're gonna announce we're going to the Big East Conference. You watched the Big East Conference? And I was like, yeah, coach, and mean, I grew up loving the Big East. You know, Scott McCorkle and Mike Hopkins and law On Ellis and played

for my dad. Um, and of course my mom went to Syracuse and watch Yukon and Georgetown and and and Villanova and Boston College and all those teams on to tomorrow we're an announced not Tre Dame is gonna join the Big East Conference and you'd be my starting point guard the first year in the Big East. How's that sounding? It was like, as I'd love to go, I'd love to take a visit to Notre Dame. I had. I

didn't grow up I'm gonna grow up Jewish. I grew up in Irish Catholic Notre Dame fan, but I wanted to see Notre Dame play football against Michigan, and I got that wish. It was an amazing weekend. And you know, they're trying to convince us that that's not that's not touchdown Jesus, that's three point Jesus. But here's the thing, Um, most of you are basketball dudes, are basketball ladies that listen to this podcast. You know that perception does not

match reality. Sometimes recruiters can be a little great with the truth. Head coaches can as well, but there's often more and more good people than there are bad people in this sport. John McCloud was the best of of those type of people. He meant when he said that what he meant, and I've just I've never met a man that that was such a gentleman a right like literally a gentleman would not scream at you, would not curse at you. And everything he said he would do

at Notre Dame for me he did. I didn't live up to my end of the bargain. He lived up to his. So from the from the moment I first arrived Notre Dame until the time even after I left, he always did what he said and said what he would do. So, um, I share a couple of a couple of quick stories. So John McCloud was um. He was a gentleman and he believed Notre Dame, Notre Dame,

we have to dress with class. They watch us, and so we were coating tie every airplane, every bus ride, and when we were in the we're in the hotel, like you couldn't dress like a slob, like you had to wear your Nike Notre Dame sweats and a specific shirt underneath, and anthing had to be tucked in. Everything had to be With the exception of Keith Krowski from Christian Brothers, Um Jersey Kid who had some boogers on his sleep with that is the exception. Everybody was like

clean shaven, looked kind, of well put together. He used to make us. You get up to leave the table, and you weren't dismissed until you tucked your chair in under the table. Look people in the eye. I'll never forget my first team meeting at Notre Dame. He drew up like a makeshift auditorium and he circles the first two rows and he says, not, they're not they're not there, Notre Dame. We sit in the first two rows and we we honestly had the ability to audible out of practice,

out of any sort of workout. If if it was pertaining to school, you had to study for a test, go we'll see, let it go and um he he said that would be his and no matter how bad or how tough the season was, that's what we would do. Um. He didn't raise his voice to you. He would get stern and he would get mad, and he would say, Notre Dame, we're in a tour. But if you really wanted to lay India, he would you'd get back to your dorm room to be a red blinking light, to

be a secretary. He'd say, Coach would want to see you at such and such time to come in. Should be very nice. He'd be very nice and formal, shake your hand, walking and close the door. And that's when he would play some tape and it wasn't usually good. Uh. He he was a man of immense class, respect, dignity,

and integrity. And I you know, like, look, it might be selfish to to say, or self I don't know what the term is, like egotistical, I think to say, but I have no doubt had I not gotten in trouble and at Notre Dame, he would have kept his job longer because we were you know, as Peccarty was a sophomore, I was a freshman, and Tony Weisch and Phil Hickey were freshman as well, and we were adding a really good recruiting asked and my boy, David Lalasarian

was coming out from my high school. And you know, by my senior year, I have no doubt that was the year he got fired. After what would have my senior year we got fired. We would have made an n c A tournament, right we we would have made an n c A tourament he would have kept his job. And even after that he wasn't better. Well. I posted a letter on Facebook. He wasn't bitter. He wasn't a jerk. He was always so classy and so dignified, even though I had done his program wrong, not just in my

actions and the way it made his program look. But remember at Notre Dame at that point in time, they weren't They weren't allowed to take transfers. You couldn't go late. There were no grad transfers. There were no transfers period. Late in the year. They didn't take any. We had guys that want to transfer and play. He couldn't take any. That was the university's policy. Obviously, it changed the second he got fired. I think Matt Doherty got to take

Ryan Humphries from Oklahoma and and and history changed. So look, you can remember him as an incredible college coach. You can remember him as a coach who coached Alvin Adams to success at Oklahoma, or a coach for a short period time at at Notre Dame. We ran what would be kind of blocker mover or I called a two side motion. We're a lot of NBA sets um. There was some de defensively, we forced middle. We were kind

of pack line before anybody called it PAC line. But I think he should be remembered as a guy that carried himself with incredible class, dignity, and integrity. And U I mean he even smelled good. His hair was always cut. He I never saw him unshaven ever. Like you know, you're around the guy an entire year. You think there's one day he comes in. You're like, man, he must have stayed up late watching tape. Nope, not not not. Johnny Mack passed away at the age of eighty one

years old. A legendary NBA head coach who I got a chance to play for my year Notre Dame. Um, let me kind of quickly give you I want to play for you. A clip of what Kevin Durant said to the media in regards to why people think he's being passive. We had a nice floor of the game. You know, let's go back to the whole last month of the season. We've been flying this way for a while and we got to this series. Um, you know,

game one, you had some nice moment. They're playing to give me a defense which has been working top bocking everything on the perimeter. So guy's not even looking at the three point line. They're just forcing guys inside the three point line. And so for us when I get the ball in my spots, you know, I got a pat Patrick Beverley who was up underneath me. Well, I could definitely shoot at the top and score every time if it's a one on one situation. But we got

a guy that's dropping and helping. And then we got another guy that's just sitting on me. Wait, wait for me to drive with the basketball. I put the basketball on the floor. I can you know, I could probably make in my shots if I shoot him like that, But that's not really gonna do nothing for us at uh the outcome of the game, you know, because we've got a nice floor. Everybody touching the rock. Now, you may not want to hear it and you may not want to accept it, and you may wonder why k

D would get a pass from people. I don't think he does. I think it's pretty interesting. Like here's a guy who people have said too much of ball stopper, too much one on one. He kind of ruins what Golden State is and then he tries to buy into what Golden States doing and they get beat. They did lead like I I went bury the lead. They were up thirty one points. His passive nature was working. He wasn't on the floor for all of the thirty one

point comeback, but I thought that was really interesting. Look, they're playing a defense which I got one underneath me, and I got a dude waiting for me, and we gotta figure out why he's to score. They're running us off the three point line, and our attack, however flawed, it became we were up thirty one points. I find Kevin Rant to be amazing to watch. I'm interested to

see what he does in game three. I'm fascinated by the idea that even though he outplayed Lebron James in the last two NBA finals, and he's won an NBA m v P, and he can play both ends and he has a virtually unstoppable pull up jump shot, he still can't seem to win people over. Why because because he fights the people on Twitter? Or is it because he left the Oklahoma City Thunder. One of the reason he left the Oklahoma City Thunder was this type of defense.

There was always two guys on him, always um But I'm a little concerned about was the Thunder. In regards to the Rockets, it's not just losing DeMarcus Cousins, who I'm not convinced made them better. But this team was not built to have a viable back up big guy like Katie has two guys on him because Kavon Luney, you're gonna leave him open, You're gonna dare him. Cavan Luny scores story, we tip our captire. That's that's that's

how you think. So between Loney and Jordan Bell and who's had his own issues with with Steve Kerr Randregodala, does he have enough left in the tank or Sean Livingston like can they find that fifth guy? And can they can they get you know, enough offense out of the non big three. We shall see. But I thought it was a perfectly interesting response. He told you he respond to basketball questions. That's a basketball question. He gave you a thorough answer. What more do you want? I

don't know. But he also told you he was the best player in the game, and then he outplayed Lebron James the last two NBA finals. What more do you want? I don't know. I still think it's gonna end up with the Celtics will win. I think the Raptors are gonna win. I think the Rocket Series is gonna be amazing against the Golden State Warriors, but I would guess the Warriors still have enough. But we'll see. Last thing is this in regards to the grad transfer rules, which

may change. I understand that we want to create freedom for athletes and to benefit from the fact that you graduate on time, you should get another year. You should get that year of viligability to spend wherever you want. But you should still have to sit out a year. Because we're destroying the low majors. It also puts the high majors like U C, l A and COW and programs that have really no grad uh grad program that you can transfer into at a late date. Puts them

at a prohibited disadvantage. More than anything, hurts the parody of the sport. I'm not saying you can't transfer up from a lower level to a higher level. If you get better and you improve, does it leave your boys in the dust shore But one there's some buyer beware. There's the Creamos of the world, the kid from Albany who that destroys albody. You lose your best player, and he didn't help didn't help Villanova. He was better at a lower level. But also, if you're a player. Where's

your home? Where's your home of monitor? You spend two, three or four years at a place and then you leave because you've got another year left and you could transfer up, Like I don't think you're going back to that place and you're not a member of the new place where you graduate. All right, let's get you to Stephen Pearl. He's a long time friend of mine's assistant coach at Auburn. Auburn won the SEC tournament, went all the way to the final four, and nearly nearly beat Virginia,

as you know, in the national semifinals. Alright, so like here's the interesting part, uh Pearl, Here's here's the interesting part. Is there are some is it is it a Venn diagram right where the we have the concentric the circles that kind of combined right between Uh, your dad and my dad's relationship, both of them having coached at u W Milwaukee UM and then of course you know the Maccabi Games thing. Like there's some there's some definitely ties

that bind you. You're born in Indiana, weren't you a born in Iowa City, Iowa? One coach was an assistant under Dr Tom Davis. Okay, that's the first part we want to get to is not just under Dr Tom Davis, but the fact that you have a tendency to call him coach, Like is there a time you also call him BP? Like when did you switch from when? When? When? Is there is there ever a dad? Or is there a bruce? Or how does it? How do how do

you address your father? I think at all suits When I started playing at Tennessee, UM, you know, I think it switched the coach and BP pretty quickly because you don't want to be, you know, that guy on the team UM calling your coach dad. So ever since I played for him because I never really played for him growing up. Heat coach baseball or football, uh, teams of mine,

but never coached basketball. So once I started playing for him at Tennessee, I think the whole dad thing kind of went away, and uh I started dressing a coach or or BP. Okay, so you're working for your you're you're born, um, and your dad's at at at the University of Iowa. Then when did you When did you

take the Southern Indiana job? How old were you? I was five years old, um, And when he took the Southern Indiana job, and uh, he was there for nine years and then took up the Milwaukee for his first Division one job, and then um took it down to Tennessee in two thousand five. UM, and then I started playing for him in twos six. Wait, you're you're skipping ahead, dude. You don't know how we do this? Okay, we can do it kind of the bit by bit thing like.

That's that's the whole thing. Okay. So Southern Indiana is in it's in Evansville, in Yeah, evans Indiana, Okay, which is hot bed for high school hoops and hot bed for college troops. Obviously, the Aces haven't been what they what they used to be. What do you remember kind of about your That's like all your formative years right up until high school. Your dad's coach at a at a school and they're they're winning national championships right there,

competing at a high level. What do you remember about about growing up in Evansville? It was really cool. Growing up in Evansville became just you know, he obviously had the Purple Aces in it, but but Southern in the end of the streaming Eagles, they were the team that was talked about in town, and you know, they used to sell out the pack arena which helps people. So it was it was the biggest shell in town. And we always try and get Evansville a playoffs, but they

never would. UM. So growing up in that environment was really cool for me. UM. You know, as a kid, Evansville is a great place to grow up. I'm not sure if I'd go back there as an adult, UM, but growing up, you know, had some great memories. UM. Growing up you know hung it was really good friends with Preston Mattingly was Don Mattingley's son, so UM, you know, had some really cool memories with with that family. UM. But really spent all my time kind of in the

gym um with coach every day. I'd go to work with him when I obviously when I wasn't at school, UM on the weekends, that spent all weekend at his office just running around the gym, you know, getting shots, hanging out, um and just bringing my friends out there. So as a kid growing up, it was really cool to kind of have your dad as as the head coach of of you know, one of the bigger teams in that town. UM. Getting to spend a ton of time with the players. You know, the players kind of

adopted me as like a little brother. Um, so that was really special. And some of your best memories growing up, you know, as the coaches kid, revolve around you know, those teams and and those memories and obviously winning championships and being one of the more successful to these two programs in the country at that time. Um, it was really special. Okay, So what do you remember about the

nation National championship? Year was ninety five. I'm gonna say yeah, Um, it's funny because like one of the reasons I wore forty four or was I look at Pemrivitch war forty four, Hank Gathers wear forty four, Um, Jerry West war forty four. But also my dad's like best player was a guy named Kirk Cashy at u W Milwaukee. He wore forty four, and so I always liked, like, like the number who is? Do you remember who your favorite player was in the

ninety team? Brian Hedner were number three, and uh so I kind of were number three, Um growing up. That changed when I got to college, but um, yeah, growing up, Brian Hedner was my favorite player. Were number three for us, and you know that that ninety five team was you know, really special. The year before, they had made it to the national semifinal. I saw the National final game and

then lost in a second UM. And then the following year, we uh, we're playing Cow State Bakersfield UM in Springfield and we're down like twenty three at half time, and one of the officials goes over to coach in the game and says, Coach, you gotta get it. You gotta get ahold of that kids in your bench. You won't stop crying. And I'm just in tears because we're we're getting our our tails handed to us, and I'm afraid

that were about to lose another national championship. So you know, at halftime, you know, coach kind of comes over to me in the locker ho He's like, buddy, what's wrong. I was like, Dad, we're gonna lose. You know, we're gonna lose again. And and then you know, second half we come out and you know, stand Gerard, and then you know some of the guys in the team just rally around and they kinned a way to come back and win the national championships. UM, so I remember those

of yours. You know, you're in kindergarten to be able to remember those types of things. UM. You know, it's really cool. In two thousand one, he got the u W Milwaukee job. Obviously, you were too young to remember how everything went down at at Iowa. UM. She became a little bit more aware at Southern Indiana, Like what was your sense for your dad and why he wasn't a division one head coach. I think I was still a little too young to kind of get involved with

the specific um in and out of it. UM. I think, you know, as I've gotten older, you know, I've kind of begun to understand the landscape. UM. As to as to why he may have not gotten a job. I know he had interviewed in multiple places. I know he'd interviewed at Butler. UM didn't get that job. UM. But then obviously, you know, getting getting the job in Milwaukee, UM was kind of just it was kind of a long time coming because of the success that he had

had at Southern Indiana. UM. So you know, I was still a little too young to really know that the ins and outs of it, UM, But it was kind of one of the things that we've been there for for nine years. I was going into the eighth grade. So as a kid, Um, it was really tough because I had, you know, really some some lifelong friends that I've thrown up with. Um, So having to leave Evansville was was one of the hardest was probably the hardest move as a kid, just because I spent my entire

childhood there and had all my memories there. Um. But then you know, like he was he kind of explaining, this is part of the profession, this is part of the job. You know. It was amazing that we were

able to stay in stay in Evansville for all those years. Um. You know, he at one at one point in time, he had the opportunity, I think, to get the Middle Tennessee stage job when we were asked that Indianna, and he ended up turning it down because, uh, the a d asked him, you know, what are you gonna tell your team? Um when you know, when you have to tell him that you're leaving. He just broke down and he couldn't do it. So we decided to stay outside Indiana.

And then I think, you know, Butler was next interviewed for it, didn't get it, um, and then interviewed Milwaukee and decided to take the job. Um, and then you know, we just had to trust what he told us and we kind of packed things up and uh and on the Milwaukee we went, okay, so now you're not now you're more aware. Right now you're like high school age

and you're a you'd have Milwaukee. What was what was that? Like? Yeah, it was it was you know, it was it was getting up there trying to figure out, you know, what I was gonna do for for whom you basketball? I was trying to figure out where I was gonna go to the high school. And um, you know it was it was cool. I mean I met some really good

friends early the groupers as you know. Um, Stephen Gruber was the first guy I met at basketball camp when I first got up there, and you know, he said, my dad and your dad are gonna be really good friends. So they introduced him to David Grouper, who you know now Coach and David are really good friends. So, um, you know, being around it, I was kind of understanding more of what I kind of took to build a program.

Um and kind of watching it kind of involved in front of me was really cool because I had more of an understanding as far as what what was some of the intricaces of what coach did every day. Obviously didn't understand it as well as I do now, but um to kind of see him build programs, you know, watching him doing at Sound Indiana as a kid, but then getting to see it at the high school level, it was pretty cool as as being a coach's kid, being like stepping back and like, whoa, you know, my

dad's pretty good at this. Um. You know, he's a would do it. So Indiana they were you know, national contender every year. And now he's at Milwaukee and we're in the incub A tournament in year two and Dylan Page, this is a layup against Notre Dame at the very end of the game to send us the second you know, the second round. UM. And then two years later, you know, he takes that team and goes to the sweet sixteen

and and beats Boston College in Alabama. UM. So to see him kind of build it in four years and and really you know, beat really good teams in the horizonally like Butler and Illinois Chicago and have those great robberies and and win Horizon League championships. Um to kind of see it as I've gotten older. It really gave me a new perspective on how how good he was at his job. Okay, so what is it that he does like he has? He has? You know, like I think so many of these guys, and I think most

people are good in their professional have it. It's just a an energy about him that he can even when he's not feeling great, you would never know because he can in a way to dial it up, right, Like if you and I know you like part of our travels, not just knowing each other, but you get to meet you know, ut movie stars and rock stars and and other athletes, and they have this kind of they have this well of energy that other people just don't have

and so even when they're tired, like damn, how's he? You know? Um? Other than that, though, what is the s Austin You've seen him maybe not old enough to know it Southern Indiana, but at Milwaukee and then Tennessee and now Auburn that he's able to to do to generate success? Yeah, I think I really started to learn it once they got too because as a playlist Tennessee, you don't see the day in and day out of a coach and all the things that go into it, UM, But now that I work with them, UM, he just

cares so much. He cares. And it's not just like it's more than just the coaching staff and his players. He he genuinely cares about the fan base. He genuinely cares about the university gen only cares about other sports on campus. He genuinely cares about, you know, how we're perceived on and off campus. UM. And I think all those things are really important in building a program and building a foundation and building a culture. UM. The amount that he they his you know, his level of care

is kind of just off the charts, UM. And I think that's why he puts so much work into it. And I think that's why every community that he's been involved in, you know, and the coach in the schools that he's coached, just buy in and they kind of you know, revolve around him and they and they come out to support the team even when the team is not that good. I mean, we were at Auburn in our first couple of years. We you know, we weren't very good. You saw it, UM, but we still you know,

had had great home crowds, We still had great student turnout. UM. So it just matters to him, Um, you know, to be able to touch all those pieces and to be able to make you know, the university proud and and um yeah, I just he puts so much effort into it because it matters to him. It really doesn't matter that it's not just on the court stuff, that's everything off the court that that's needed to kind of build a you know, to build a program that wasn't in

in the greatest spot. Um. So I think that's the biggest thing is just you know how much it matters to him personally, um, and and all the people that you know, the athletic directors that that took the chance on him, like he he feels, you know, he's in debt to them and he has to reward them. So he works, you know, he said he always says he's not the most talented guy in the world, but he's gonna work harder than everyone else. And he's kind of

had that mindset, you know, every single day. And you talked about his energy, you know. Coach flann again, one of our assistant coaches, went out recruiting with him last week after we just got back from the Final four, and he he's like, man, I don't know how he does it. You know, we we we're going for three straight days recruiting and he's just high level, high energy the entire time. And it's just it's not an act.

That's just who he is. And he's able to kind of do that everywhere he goes, and UM, it's kind of just translated into being able to ton these programs run and you know, winning a violence. Okay, so you get to Tennessee. He guys take Milwaukee to the Sweet six team and you go to Tennessee. You're coming up, I think on your senior year in high school. Yeah, what do you remember about the move to Tennessee. Um, Well,

initially I told him I wasn't leaving Milwaukee. I was like, I want to stay and play my final year of high school ball appearing, So I'm not going, you know, without you. And I was like, all right, well that kind of okay, that ends that conversation because I wasn't gonna stop him from you know, making the biggest move and transition of his coaching career, UM to go from

Milwaukee to Tennessee. So, you know, just like when we moved from Edinsville to Milwaukee, had a ton of really good friends and I didn't want to break ties with and then moving down to a new place, you know, for your senior season. It's tough because you know, you obviously put a ton of time in UM, you know, with you with your teammates over three years in high school. So it was it was a tough move. But obviously

it made sense because you're in the SEC. Tennessee is a good program with with some tradition, UM, an incredible fan base, you know, all the different things that it takes to be successful. UM. So we go down there and UM, you know, obviously, well I'm trying to find new friends and figure out what I'm doing with basketball. UM, you know, just to kind of watch you know what what what what? There was a Tennessee of UM buzz

Peterson left a really good team. UM had C. J. Watson, you had Chris Lawton, John Smith, Major Winate, Dame Bradshaw. You've had some really good pieces, UM, and what we did just kind of fit that team perfectly. You know. It looked very similar to some of the teams we've had last couple of years. Undersized guys that shoot the crap out of the ball and want to play fast. Um that first year, you know, we go twenty two and I think nine, get a two seed in the n c l A tournament when the SEC East and

you know had had success right away. And then from there it was just the snowball effect. Um, every single year we go to sleep sixteen. The next year I come into a freshman, I'm a red shirt. And then just to kind of see it over time, over time build and you know, um spending five years there as

a player red starting my first first year. Um, and I'm sure we'll get into the playing part of it, but you know it's kinda um see what what he obviously what he was able to accomplish there being a national contender, being a contender in the NCC every year with you know, um Kentucky and Florida and in Vanderbilt and you know something in Mississippi State l s U. Um kind of do it against the elite was you know it was? It was? It was really cool. Okay, So, um,

you play your senior. Was there ever I thought you weren't going to play for your dad? Yeah? There was. I mean I was getting uh some low major interests, some IVY League interests, there's a lot of division too interests. You know, Um, it was all state and Tennessee average you know, only five points a game in high school.

So obviously I had some options out there. But um, at the end of the day, like I thought, it was, you know, obviously I I'm one of those guys that always got a chip on the shoulder and always trying to prove something. And everyone always told me there's no way you'll ever play at Tennessee. There's no way. So I took that out of the challenge, and um, after winning a lot of you know, different options, you know, decide I wanted to go to Tennessee walk on and

and try and find a way to play. Um. So yeah, there was definitely some thought early. UM, but you know, you know me, I'm always up for a challenge. So once everyone told me there was, you know, no way you'd play at this level, that kind of made me want to do it even more. Okay, so you arrive at two thousand seven, that's your dad's second year, right, and I just can't imagine it's hard enough to be a walk on and then to be the coaches kid, and he's trying to turn around and you're you're trying

to like earn respect. You're also trying to figure out college because even though you you spent a year in a college town, it's completely different once you're in the school. What was that that process like and how did how did the guys all honesty how they treat you? Yeah, it was you know, we signed a ridiculous class that first year you had. UM. It was like a top ten class of Wayne CHISLM. Du Cruz, Mr Smith, Marcus Johnson, and Josh Tat So it was a uh nationally highly

rated class UM. And we all kind of came in, you know together, because I kind of helped recruit those guys because you know, when they'd do on their business, I was, I was there. So we did all kind of come in at the same time, you know, as a group, and you know, they treated me like, you know,

like like I had been recruited the same way they did. Um. You know, I've been around the program the year before when I was in high school, so all those guys that were returners that following year obviously all knew me. But you know, they just treated me. They treat me like anyone else because you know, quite frankly coach treating me worse than any of them, So I know I

wasn't getting any preferential treatment. Um. So it was just like I was, you know, one of the guys out there and you know treated me, you know, just like any other incoming freshman UM. But also with the whole walk on tag, you know, they gave me a little, you know, a little extra crap like like you know, like most walk ons do. You had to do some of the extra stuff that you never want to do, but I kind of have to as a walk on.

So there was never anything. It wasn't difficult, um coming into the freshman walk on, you know, and being the coaches kids, they kind of my team to you know, did a really good job kind of seeing past all that not having it ever be an issue. Yeah, that was the year that you guys went like thirty one in five right now. The next year that that year we um went like two and I was like twelve

or something. Once the Sweet sixteen lost to Greg Oden Mike Conny and the Sweet sixteen we were up nineteen at half, I think in the shot like thirty four free does in the second half, and uh kind of came back and end up pointing the game. Um, okay, I wouldn't be doing my job as much as and you and I have. I don't know if you know this. We've never talked about, not just the barbecue, but like

people don't remember how things went down. Here's here's my recollection of of kind of what happened with everything right, not necessarily the it's that okay, So, uh what year did we go to? It was Israel? Israel was myself was two thousand ten, so two thousand, two thousand nine. Um BP calls me and he's like, hey, I'm going to Israel in a year. I'm gonna coach the maccabyteen. I want you to to be my assistant when you come

with me. And I was like done in okay, And um I didn't know, like so you have to kind of commit a year in advance. And we had I'm gonna say, didn we have it like a tryout like weekend in Knoxville. I think that okay, okay, so so so and this is this is my recollection of it. So the practicability was sick and I had never I hadn't been to Knoxville since my senior year in high school, I played in some all star game at the arena and we went out that night, like that's the only

time I ever been in Knoxville. So we stay at your dad's new house, which he was just moving into. It was just finished off or whatever, but the basement. I stayed in the basement and he had like a poker room that was with like vented parts of the ceilings. You could smoke in the poker room or whatever. And we had a couple of days of workouts and I was like, this motherfucker can coach. Like I had never been. I I never liked like the style of flex so

it cutters whatever offense. But I watched and I was like this fucking dude can coach and um, and we had a great time. And then I don't know if you remember, my flight was like earlier than everybody else. He had to get back and we were on a boat. He got a free boat every year, right, Yeah, we had a boat over year as part of a deal on he did like speaking engagements for c Ray and they kind of let him use a boat. Um in

the summer. So we had a couple of boats out there and I think someone had they come and get you on a jet ski to take you back so you can get to the airport. Correct. Correct? I literally had like a bag and like a jet and I had a bag. He's like just throwing the boat, Well, we'll take you to the airport. I was like, how are you gonna? Don't worry about We'll figure it out, right.

So we had a bunch of guys and and we're throwing back some beers and guys are water skiing and jet skiing, and we're tying up the boat and the I'm like, shoot, I gotta go get the airports. Like no problem. He's like, hey, can anybody take him to the airport. Some guy pulls up on a jet ski like I'll take him over there, and like it was literally literally was like the most country ship everywhere. I grabbed my bag, hopping the back of a jet ski with like you know, no shirt on and flip flops.

Takes me over to like you know, like a trans am, hopping the trans am and some random dude like you go down the back yes, and you know they passed me off the guy to guy and I get dropped out of the airport. I'm like later, so um, somewhere, and I don't remember what month of the year that was. I'm gonna say that felt like August. So my wife at the time had just gotten pregnant. If I find

the guy, let me know anyway. Um, So I didn't like, I didn't think anything of going to Israel the next summer. So we had Hayes Uh, your dude, Hayes in March and I was like, she'll be fine, Like I'm going to Israel a couple of months, like, no big deal. And then right as it came down the booking time and I was like, no way, you're going to Israel while I have three kids three and under, Like, that's

just not happening. Not happening. So I came and helped with the workouts at George Washington, right, and again I was like, this fucking dude can coach. And he let me do so much it was awesome. He's like you don't like that, here, change it, do it. And then while you guys were gone, that's when Aaron kraft D committed, Right, wasn't it while you were in Israel? He was gone for like the whole month of July and missed that recruiting period. Is that is that accurate? Yeah, he was

going that entire month. Um, and yeah, I think I

think that's when it when it all happened. Um, there's a couple of things going on back home with with recruiting, and I just remember, Um, after the after he won the gold medal in overtime, a VP was basically came in the locker room, gave us one of the most memorable speeches that will ever will ever hear um that we can talk about in private one day, and then basically just bolted out and went straight to the airport, jumps on a plane and flew back to the United

States try and you know, fake some of the situations that were going on in recruiting because he because he had been gone that entire month. Wait, why can't we talk about the what is? Because he cursed her because he was talking about what it means to be a Jew or or what was it? Because when I because when we want it, because when we want I'll just give you my personal experience. So I coached was it

two years ago? And um, you know, truth be told, Like, look, we we go over there and I had never been you know, like the deal with for people don't know the Maccabi games. So it's like the Jewish Olympics. And I went over there when I was um in between, right before I started at Notre Day at Oaklhoma State, so I had played a year of college basketball, sat out of you or and um, uh god, what's why am I? Why am I forgetting what her browns our coach?

And we beat a team in the pool play by sixty and then we played in the semifinals and ship we got beat and you know, it's one of those deals. We were playing too many guys and I don't think he really her really understood what he had or how do you know? I just remember, like, and we won this. We won the silver medal against in the Israeli team.

We also got upset. But but the Americans and the Israelitis are supposed to play in the championship game, and you're supposed you're like, you're supposed supposedly have the best players. The problem is that you know, if you're really, really good and you're Jewish, you know, you're thinking about either playing the NBA already playing in Israel and you've been there ten months and you want to come home. It's like a little bit harder. You're playing with kids sometimes

against men whatever, and there's the pressure of it. You don't get any calls. So we played France in the championship game. We stomped Israel. They had I felt like they played too young a team, and we were pretty we were really playing good well and we were up like twenty and it got tight. I think we won by six at the end, and so I didn't you know my and I also like like BP. I got on a plane that night because I had to come back and work and I've been you know, like you're

gone like a month. And I loved it. But my postgame speech was more I went through every guy because I didn't play every guy in the championship game. I felt a little bad about it, but I felt I would have felt a lot worse that we lost. You guys wanted like a last second shot, didn't you. Well, we were down eight with me two minutes left, and UM basically like we just Pepe like gave us four just ridiculous play called UM a couple of back doors and a couple you know, a couple of play calls

for shots and we end up tieing it. Um you know, I think Steth Holbin made a layup with like five seconds left to tie it up, and then we go to overtime. We just spank them in overtime and um end up winning the gold medal. And uh, it was at the point when we were done eight, it was not looking good and for us to be all to come back and you know, BP always makes a joke when you had Isaac, Joseph and Jacob as the three referees, your chances of winning in Israel weren't looking very good.

And um, you know, weren't getting calls the entire game. We're just getting screwed the entire time and just kind of found a way to hang in there, and then over time we kind of got hot. They just couldn't take it away from us, and you know, we ended up winning and and and really celebrating, and you know, we all went out that night and saw these really players that they're like the club they always go to and UM in Tel Aviv and it was that's a

lot of fun. Yeah. Um so, uh so you all this stuff is going down and recruiting, you're in you're in Israel, Like, did you have any idea did did any of this. Did you guys know any of this stuff was going down like you personally as a member of Tennessee's basketball team. No, not at all really, I mean I just I just knew that VP. Um something had gone wrong with you know, one or two of of of his verbal commitments. I think Josh Josh Selby.

Uh then with the Kansas was the other one. Um, so something had kind of gone straight with both of those. I guess Kansas have gotten involved and kind of, you know what, it was messing up a little bit. And uh so I know he had to get back to kind of get in front of both those guys just to kind of see what was going on because, like

he said, he's gone that entire month. But as a member of the team, like you know, myname is like when kids would come in on visits, like we you know, didn't have didn't know a ton, We didn't follow recruiting as much. It wasn't as like all of our social media because social media wasn't like Twitter just started back then, so it wasn't like as all over the place as

it is now and as easy to find. We just you know, when coaches told us we had a host you know, we hosted, but besides that, we didn't really have as much information on recruiting as as kids did. Know, So what what was it? What was it like to like, there's there's all this different part one year part of the team, and he's in limbo your last years, last

year in Tennessee. Yeah, but too you're also his son, right and and and like look like again those of us who know him though that the BP is not what I think some people will always negatively perceive him to be. What was that, Like, what was that experience like for you at the end or just in general in general? I don't know, you know, just leading up to it. I mean you obviously you know, being a coach's kid as well, Like you get this prior all

the time. UM. You know, people always, you know, doubt why you played. UM, And I always tell people, you know, I probably should have been playing a year earlier. UM, But coach, you know, put other guys ahead of me, just because he didn't want people to think that he was giving me any preferential treatment. UM. And we had had some knockdowns, just fights over it, you know, in practice, UM,

just going back and forth. And obviously when I wasn't playing like there was a little bit of a strand in our relationship because I was a stubborn kid, um, and he was just you know, a father and a coach trying to do what was best for me and what was best for the team. So, um, he was in an incredibly difficult situations. Um. But then obviously in

my junior year, Um, you know, some things happened. I was able to kind of get into the rotation and uh, you know, we go out there and have a great year. You know, we beat number one Kansas at home my second game in the rotations, and then we're going to have a pretty good sec season. We go to an Elite eight or one point away from the final four. Um, you know, to play Butler in the final four, and we lose by one in Michigan State Draymond Green and

Corey Lucius and those guys. Um. And then the next year, Um, all the stuff happens with the n C Double A and with with the barbecue and and it's all kind of just like a cloud hanging over our heads. Um. So to play for him that year, it was it was it was tough. You know, there was just there was a lot of outside noise and you know, not really knowing what was gonna happen. And then he he

was suspended for eight games. Um, you know, and UM to kind of see the wear and tear that kind of took on him was it was to us, you know, obviously as a player, but then as his son was incredibly difficult because obviously you know how much how much time and how much effort he puts into into his job and to kind of see it falling apart um there at the end was it was brutal. To be honest, it was brutal. And then you know we go to

the into a tournament and get blown out by Michigan. Um, the end was difficult, um, And it was really hard to kind of seeing him in that in that stage. You know, he never brought it to work though he was always you know, composed and positive and he was he was he was he was himself when he was around us and around the coaches, around the team, but just outside of that, I could kind of see, you know, um, what it was doing to him. And yeah, like the one word where it was it was brutal having to

go through that. Okay, So did you guys, did you know, do you know he's gonna get fired. No, I didn't really know. Um. I didn't know until we were on the bus heading to Charlotte for the game, and they had like put out a quote from the a d you know, basically like that he was unsure of his his you know, his future. And that's when it first clicked to me, like, oh, ship, this is this is not gonna end well, um, you know unless we just you know, once the final four or something. Um, because

winning does miraculous things. But that obviously didn't happen, So it really didn't. I really didn't know he was getting fired, and so we're kind of heading to the game, uh, to play Michigan. I really had no idea. Um, okay, so like that, that's got to just be weird for you considering your Tennessee Alum, you play basketball Tennessee. Yeah,

I'm sure you love most of your time there. On the other hand, like they fired your dad, um, and he you know, and you know, he's it's not that he didn't make mistakes, but he did own the I always I just always felt like it was double jeopardy, Like, all right, you spent may games like that's the penalty like spend by games and then coach season and you fire him when you always like, what was what was the whole point of the thing? How does it? How

does it? How does it sit with you today? Forget about him, How does it sit with you today as a Tennessee elone. Yeah, I mean it's obviously difficult, But at the same time, you got to realize that the people that have made those decisions, um, aren't there anymore. Um, you know they have you know, Phil Falmers is a really good friend of our families. Um. You know, he's the athletic director there and obviously, like you know, have nothing but love for him and his family, and you know,

tons of respect for coach Barnes. Um. But I'd be lined up, I said, it didn't you know, it still didn't sting a little bit, you know, just thinking back on it. Um Yeah, But then you gott like, like like I said, you gotta try and put it in perspective and realize that a lot of the people that you know did make those decisions, you know aren't there. But at the same time, like if they hadn't made those decisions, you know, we may not have ended up at Auburn and we went to the Final four this year.

So I mean, at the end of the day, like it's really all worked out. Um, he has all worked out well for them. You know, they're in a great place with with you know, for a while they weren't in a great place. UM, but I think they found their guy in coach Barnes and you know, obviously was co champions the SEC last year and then you know, made it to a Sweet sixteen this year. So they're they're in a good spot. And I think we're in

a great spot being at Auburn. And you know, looking back on it, you know, if you told me back then, um, you'd end up, you know in two thousand nineteen at Auburn and you've just come up and found four. You know, obviously you would have taken it instantly, having a deal with three years when we weren't in coaching. UM, I feel like it's all it's all worked out well. You know,

there was definitely some some bitterness. There's a you know, the Tennessee fan base was was always a huge, you know, very supportive of coach and what he was all about, and you know that that never changed. Um. But you know, it's it's all kind of worked out for the better, and I think we're, you know, all a better place. Because do you have any of your Tennessee gear? I do, I do, I got I still have. I still have my jerseys. Um, so I haven't got my letterman's jacket though,

So if if anyone in Tennessee, here's this. I've been waiting on a letterman's jacket for like five or six years now and it's never gotten shipped to me. So if we could a remedy that situation, yeah, I wouldn't mind having that one day for my kids to see. Yeah, no, listen, I had mine. Um, I never got one in high school,

so I was cheesing high school. And I had one in college and they were kind of cool at my Notre Dame one still which I haven't really rocked obviously, a little still a little awkward, Um, but I have. I had an Oklahoma State when that was stolen at like it was it was like the worst game ever we played, oh you on the road. We'd beaten them my sophomore, my junior, and we were just terrible. I was personally awful, and I got my letterman jacket stolen

from the locker room during the game. I did get out in a couple of yes, I did get one, and I so I do have it. So I feel you on that. Okay, UM, what did you do when when BP went to TV? What did you do? I did medical sales. I went and work for Striker UM in Tennessee, Ron Barzac and Darren Way where my where my bosses, and um. Kind of you know, there's something I'd kind of worked on when I was still at Tennessee because you know, I had a chance to go

play professionally overseas UM. But also at the same time, I had to kind of be realistic that I wasn't gonna be the most prolific star UM overseas and it probably wouldn't have, you know, turned into much for me. So I had to kind of make a grown up decision as far as what I was gonna do. UM. Coach just gotten fired. So I was like, you know, trying to figure out what my next step was. And I kind of wanted to get into something right away to kind of you know, buy my time and and

to have myself, you know, stay busy doing something. And I had kind of built a relationship with with Ron and Darren while I was a senior Tennessee and they basically told me like when whenever you finish, you know, they're this job could open up. You had be ready and uh, you know, once we finished up in the tournament, I was in grad school. A couple of weeks later, Ron causing, head if this is open um, it's yours

if you want it, but it's gonna fail quickly. So drop out of grad school and jumped right into medical sales and did that for three and a half years covering UM hospital surgery centers in the East End of Sea in southwest Virginia. What what what? What? Medical devices?

I was selling saws and drills and UM A lot of different UM pieces of equipment that did like total joint surgery so that total needs little hips, total shoulders, um so saws, drills, cement mixers, tourniquet UH, tourniquet UM, you know, all types of different things for orthopedic surgeries. What was the nast garly a surgery that you had to sit down on man. I had to do some there.

We had a certain product that like stopped bleeding, so I had to do some like O b q U I N procedures and the amount of respect I had for women now having to go through some of that stuff is it's incredible. It was. I don't know if you'd call it gnarly, but it was not. It was not fun, but it was quite the experience. Okay, so uh so so so but you but you make good coin, right, you're taking doctors out to eat, right, the hours are a little trying, whatever, but it things could be rougher

for a recent college graduate. Um. Okay, So I always thought that your dad and look, I left ESPN right before he joined ESPN, and your your dad's one of those guys that should be it should be it should have been a superstar, right, it should have been al McGuire. Um, I don't ever think he was able to be comfortable

enough like I you know what I mean. It's like like Seth Greenberg, who is very good and he was always good to your dad and like, but for whatever reason, like the two Jews, I don't know why it didn't. It just I never felt like they found the right guys with him to make it sing. Is that fair? Yeah? I think part of that is thatvidence. I think the other part of it is. I think once he started doing TV, I think he started itching to get back into it even more, just because he got around it again,

you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, no, listen, if you do. I telled you like when urban Meyer did the games when he was at ESPN, I told everybody like, he's gonna coach again. Like if you do the game, you do the studio. It's kind of it's it's I like it because you feel like you can watch every game, but it's not the same whereas you do a game

and you really prep for it. You watch tape, you talked to the coaches, you're you know, you sit there and watch film with him, You watch practice, You're like, dude, I miss it. I miss you even missed a losing as much as we missed the winning. And I know exactly what he was doing, Like you're sitting there covering

games and he's at practice. He's writing, sit down like oh this will be good for what we do, you know, Like he's sitting there taking notes for if he ever got back into coaching, what would work, what wouldn't work. And I think he learned so much in those you know, those couple of years when he was working with ESPN, watching film, watching other teams, because when you're you know,

when you're in it, and your coach you do. So you spend so much time on your on your team that you don't unless you really make a concerned effort to get out there during the summer and go sit down on other teams, which you know, which we do a pretty good job of. Um, you don't get a ton of time to kind of add to it because you're so busy doing a million different things. He had those three years to kind of refine his craft and

and make what he did better. Um. And like you said, I think being around practices, being around the kids, um, the ins and out, the intricacies of of what you do every day. I think it made him miss it even more so. I think getting back into TV was I mean a major reasons why he got back into coaching. Okay, so he did he call you first and say he was taking the Auburn Like, well, how did the Auburn thing go down? In terms of the your knowledge of it?

So we were um heading down. It was me uh VP and then my buddy Jordan Howe who played with Near Tennessee. We were actually driving down to Atlanta. I think coach had something going on in Atlanta, and then we just wanted to go down there to watch the SEC tournament. We're going down, you know, the support Tennessee UM. So we're going down to watch the game. And Jordan is from Auburn, Alabama. Originally his mom still lives there.

His brother played at Auburn. You know, Jordan was recruited by Georgia, Auburn, Alabama and Tennessee end up going to Tennessee. So Jordan was around in Auburn when you know, you had UM Chris Porter and the Cliff l S days. So like he was around when when Auburn was was last really good. So we're in the car and you know, you obviously hear the rumors circulating that Tony Barbie, you know, is gonna get fired at the end of the year,

and VPS in the car and just fight out. Says that Jordan, he says, you know, Jordan can Auburn went in basketball, and Jordan was like, honestly, BP like I was there, you know in the early nineties when it was really good, and I feel like if you were there, yeah, they can they can one again. And that's kind of really how how it all started, least how I remember

getting started. And then over the next couple of days, you know, things really started to pick up as far as discussions between you know, um J Jacobs, David Benedict and coach and Um that's kind of where it all got started. And then they came up and visited with us in his kitchen. Um sat back, drank a few beers, talked about it, and you know, um, coach obviously wanted to make sure that, you know, before he did anything that that Brandy and you know, the rest of his

his kids were were good with it. And I think I think my siblings were more excited about getting back into coaching than than he actually was. He was excited, but my sister is my little brother. You know. Then they eat it up and they love it and they just you know, they live for going to games and going to tournaments and you know, Um, so they were obviously really excited about it, and I think that made his decision that much easier. Okay, so did he immediately

go like, hey, you're come with me? I mean, what was the what was the conversation like when you when when he took the job. As far as you're working for. So I was kind of in a transition period with my job. I was about to kind of get interviewed to be in my own territory, you know, if I if I had earned one. So I was kind of, you know, looking to relocate at that time anyway, UM, and then the opportunity came about, and I was kind

of itching to get back into it. Anyway, I was doing a Saturday morning radio show UM in Knoxville, so I was, you know, doing I was kind of getting back involved in the sports thing. And you know, Um, I was twenty six at the time, so I was still young enough to kind of switch professions and still be able to get back into medical sales if I really wanted to. UM. So we talked about it and he was like, you know, I was like, you know, what, what what would you think about us kind of doing

this thing together? He said, you know, obviously I'd love for you to be there with me. Yeah, I trust you. UM, you know you're gonna You're gonna be good at this if you do it. You know, you just gotta understand that you got you dont have to work for everything again, Like, I'm not just gonna hand you an assistant coaching position, you know, just because here my son I would get down Auburn, so very similar to how it was when

I played for him. You know, we talked about doing it together, building it together, you know, knowing that it was gonna take some time. UM. And you know you know this with with your dad and with your brother. You know, some of your most important accomplishments in life, you know, when you did it, do them with your family, They make them that much more special. UM. So for us to be able to kind of go down there and do it together, you know, it was pretty cool.

And I gotta I got a quick reality check very quickly when I got down there and my role was the assistant strength coach, and I was making uh not a lot of money. Um, how do you making? How's you're making your first year? Uh probably fifty fifty or sixty maybe. So it took took a pretty big pay cut from doing medical sales, um to go down there and kind of start working in Auburn. Um. You know.

So I've worked as an assistant strength coach for a year, uh, did operations for two years, um, and then now and in my second year as a full time assistant coach and and you're you kind of become like his right hand guy, right Like you do that you do the defense, don't you. Yeah? I mean had I had a big, big part of of kind of building our defense last year, um, and just a ton of like in game adjustments, just

trying to help him manage the game. Um. The coolest part about working for him, and this goes for anyone on our staff, is he is open to any and all suggestions. Just like when you were coaching us when we were getting in the cobby games, Like if you had something you wanted to run with, like you will

let you do it. So last year when we were kind of going through everything and we were down to you know, three guys in the staff, you know, or for three to five guys in the staff, it really made a lot of us have to step up and and you know, have bigger roles and what we were doing.

So I took over the defense, um, you know, Chad Pruett and Burgo Matt Mike Burgomaster helped out with the offense, you know, and Harris just kind of oversaw everything he was you know, he just kind of helped out with in every single area so I was kind of able to have more of a voice defensively last year, um on this team, and it's kind of carried into this year with with coach Flanagan. Um. So yeah, just you know, I feel like, you know, we have a really good dialogue.

You know, I'm able to say things to him that no one else in the staff is being able to stay to him. UM. So I think that's good, um for our staff to be able to bounce things off of me, because I'll be I mean, I'll be able to know how how coach will react to certain things. And you know, he uh, he lets me get away with a little bit more just because we have a little bit of a tighter relationship. But um, it's very healthy.

It's you know, obviously been a tough fun and to kind of do what we were able to do this year was it was it was a blast. But it is interesting how you're able to do what you would do, like you know, Mustafa heron transfers. Um, you know, the the you know, the check person thing obviously is still

kind of still kind of looming. Right. Harris Adler decides to get out of basketball and go work back in Philly, and you know that was you know, a personal decision has been written about like Harris is an awesome dude, UM, and so like the you if you're outside the program, you be like, man, this could be really bad. How did it come together to be the opposite and be really good? I just think the culture that we've we've built with our kids is just so strong right now.

You know, we have so many high character UH kids in that locker room that you know, even when something really bad happens, they're able to kind of find together and fight through it. You look at what happened last year with you know everything with with UM during the season, you know, having to lose a few staff members. You know, we end up coming together. That team wins an SEC championship and goes to the tournament for the first time

two thousand three. UM. And then this year, you know, you've got the Stafahern transfers, you have the Shawn Murray transfers, you have David on Mitchell transferring, You lose three of your top you know, eight or nine guys, and then you know, we just bring in new players, UM, guys that had lesser roles last year had to step up, UM, and we end up coming together winning twelve or thirteen straight at the end of the year, um, and then

gone to the final four. And then on top of that, we beat beating North Carolina and our best one of our best and actually our best player, Tears is a c l in the game. And then we have to go play Kentucky who had just beating us by thirty back in February, and those guys come together and win. So I think it's just it's a huge testament of the culture that that VP is built. Um. It's a

resilient locker room. It's a resilient group of kids, and you know, we have it's such a family atmosphere that when when something like you know what's happened, you know, a couple of different instances has happened, it kind of brings our guys closer together and we kind of play for each other. Okay, so how do you what what is the secret to the culture? How do you build it? What is that you guys have team building things? Do you have things that you have to do every day?

Is there living arrangement things like what's different about Auburn from every other school that allows you guys to have a better culture than some most other schools. In your opinion, I think it's Yeah. I think it's the trust from the freedom that that BP has and gives to his players. You know, some people criticize us because of the shots that we take, but the reason that they're able to take those outs because VP lets them, and in return, that makes them want to do, you know, do everything

for him in return. You know, if you're allowed to play with tremendous freedom offensively, um, the guys are gonna you know, they're gonna guard for you, they're gonna rebound for you, they're gonna go to class for you, they're gonna do community start, they're gonna do things that you know, other players may not do because they know their coach trust them. Um. So I think the fact that coach has tremendous trust and his players and gives them tremendous freedom,

you know, makes them kind of fight for him. Um. And then on top of that, just having good kids in that locker room, they've all kind of binding together as a really you know, as a good group of friends. Obviously, winning helps a lot of those things, but I think the culture that was built, you know, on on that trust and on that freedom. Um has really made a healthy environment and has really shown off over the last

two years. Okay, so you mentioned like all the things that you guys had going at the end right when um Chuma ends up tearing his A C L. Right, but you also have you know, wildly struggles to practice all the time, right because of his body, and you know he's had some things and UM, you know it's it's kind of a you know, you guys always play a difficult schedule. The SEC was really has gotten really really good. That's what happens when you hire really good

coaches throughout the league, they get very good. You know, you're getting good players and teams get super invested in it. Um, was there a moment this year where you felt like because you did like one time you played Kentucky you got run out of the building, right, So when was

there a moment you're like, Okay, this is different. Yeah, I mean at that point we were seven and seven, like E T and eight, Um, But we always knew that with this the team's ability to shoot the ball, UM and just like we call I don't know if this is even a word, what we called it, our spurt ability was better than anyone in the country. We could run off at twelve or thirteen point run on people in a matter of second. Um, So our ability to do that, you know, still gave us a chance

to be dangerous. You know, like you said, Austin was was injured in and out during the year. You know, Truma had gone through a slump early in the season. Um, you know, still guys were still trying to figure out their roles because we had ten or eleven guys that were all capable of starting. So um. I think the biggest thing is once we started winning at the end of the year and started finding ways, when guys started buying into their roles a little you know, more willingly,

and I think it made everything click. And then on top of that, you know, um, everyone was shooting the ball at pretty high level. So when you're able to make shots, you know, you're able to fly around defensively make plays, it just makes you know, it makes winning

a lot easier. And it just everything kind of jelled at the right moment because I think I think the biggest thing was the kids all kind of came together and said, listen, we could either you know, go to a final four or we could be in the first four and lose or miss the tournament. And I think they as as a unit kind of got together and made a conscious decision to accept their roles, um do what needed to be done to in and UM, I think that made the difference of everything. Take me to

the final four. You're you're up four, You're at four, and they have the basketball. Now, Kyle Guy hit a tough shot. I was thinking in my head, maybe you start fouling now, right and again and and this is it sounds like high hindsight on a path on a on a podcast, but I did think maybe. And I didn't even realize how many fouls you had to give.

But I almost feel like when you're up for, the only way you lose is if there has to be a three um in order to to beat you end up being you know, essentially to threes one with the three main free throws you're up for. What do you remember thinking? Yeah, I mean, like you said, hindsights everything. Um, you can sit here and think about it a million times, but you know, prime, our primary thing was, you know, our free throws. You're at the line making free throws.

You know, um, you know quite frankly, like Anthony made those free throws last year, hadn't shot him very well this year, so we're hoping he'd made the free throws first. Um. Secondly, we only had one time out at the time, UM, so we didn't want to call it and burn our last time out to set up our defense because we you know, thought we had been playing pretty good defense

us at that point. UM. And we didn't want to tell him live ball as we're shooting the free throws, you know, in the middle of the game too foul, because we didn't want it to get confused and kind of lost, just from what I remember. And then like you said, like that's probably a ten or you know made shot that he shot in that corner. You know, sameir had a good contest on it. He's twisting and turning out of bound. So I mean, you know, you

can look back and say we should have fouled. We only had four thousands of time UM, so we could have definitely mild some time at the clock. But um, you know, we made him shoot a tough contested shot falling out of bound at the corner. You know, as a coach, you you know, you gotta live with that. Um, that's you know, it's a lower percentage shot than him going to the line and making two free throws cutting

it too too. And then you know, um, you looked at the end of the next guest state game, you know, when we basically took the ball over the general last sixty seconds of the game, like if that could have happened again. So we we thought pretty good about our defense and how we're how we're guarding them at the time. Um, so up for you know, we uh you know won the mega shoot a tough contested shot, and they did. And you know, Kyle guy made a hell of a

place to give him long credit. Okay, So, uh Jared gets the ball, and um, look he's a very good free throw shooter. And I'm trying to think did he make free throws or a jump shot to win the state championship. I think it was his junior year. Um, I remember covering you guys like his freshman year and you're like, this kid's stud Yeah. I just felt like, yeah, okay, so like here's the guy in granted it's a little bit bigger stage. By the way, what's it like with

all this stuff? It's so much differ you know you were the one guy that would stand up and get kind of on the stage. But how different, how how difficult is it coaching, and how different to to relay things to your team when you're down you know, a whole you know, three yards a yard below the level of the playing surfaces opposed to be like in terms of communication, and what's the difference they're like as opposed

to at other times in the year. Unless you step on the floor, they can't hear a word you're saying. So it's it's you basically just held a front row seat to a Final four game. If you're an assistant coach, Now, if you find some opportunity to jump out there, like during three those to kind of communicate things, you can, But in live ball, if there's there's no communication with

any assistance. So anything that we had we had to relate a coach to kind of relate to our guys um and get get the message out there to them on the floor, because when you're when you're that far back and you know, it's that open up, there was really no communicating with the guys and what it was during timeouts or during the vault. So uh so he misses and obviously you guys start to kind of process a fouling. Did you see your dad has said he didn't see the double dribble. Did you see the double

drib Yeah, I saw it pick off his foot. I wasn't sure if Bryce had touched it or not Bryce was trying to foul him. Um. I did see him pick up and put it back down, and I did scream it out. But you know, I said it in a in an interview. It's a bang bang play um. You know, It's it's hard to kind of see that at that moment. He may have been looking to see if Bryce was fouling him and just missed it. Um, But definitely from my angle, I saw um, I saw him.

I saw Jerome pick up the ball and put it back down, you know, and and thinking that it was a double dribble time. But you know, it's just it happened so fast that you know, it could have been pretty easy to miss. It is one of those things,

and again this is all this is all hindsight. It is one of those things when the other team thinks you're as soon as they're you're going to foul, like he end up taking you know, a half court Heath Right, you almost feel like, man, could you could you design a call that that signifies your act like you're gonna foul, but you don't actually foul, which will entice them to

take a terrible shot. Right. Is that something I think maybe in the future teams could practice and put in You could and you just have to have incredible trust and says to not do it. And then I also hope that the referee doesn't, you know, kind of blow the call a little bit early thinking that you were trying to foul um, so that that's a tough one. Um. But you know, we had told Bryce, you know, we

told Bryce the foul. And now when when Jerome had kicked the ball and he had picked it back up, would it had been great if Bryce didn't foul him at all and made him take a tough shot to that. Yeah, But Bryce was just following instructions from his coaches and and we told him the foul, so we filed and then they got the side out of bounce play, so they running the side out of bounce play. You've poured over all the different tape, right, You've done watching the

tape and watching synergy. Did you know what was coming. Yeah, yeah, you told them board and um, you know we talked about it outside of the breakfast spot in the other morning. We told, you know, we tore our end nondefender, do not let them pass the ball um to the corner. But the one thing that I didn't see live ball, and then I saw as I looked back at it, he was able to take like five steps back. So it really didn't matter if you had to sell on

the ball. His angle to that pass in the corner, there was unless unless our guy was standing out of bounds, which would have been a violation. There was no way to to defend that pass the corner because of how big the playing surface was. So he was able to get a very clean pass the corner because he backed up.

Made made a really smart play and I'm sure coach Benett told him to this back up and we talked so in in in hindsight with that little time remaining and again knowing now that like again final four floor and for you know, like guys listening to this podcast, now it's your basketball guys. So like if you're if you're lining up in a regular game, there's no space, right they can tell you to back up. But as long as you don't cross over line, there's no We've

seen games of Kansas like this. We're just there's no space, there's nowhere to see. And like Austin Wiley's a big dude. That's a really hard pass no matter how and and you want to put a good, good passer there. So

oftentimes they're not a big guy. But because the final four playing services so large, he can back way up and he has a clear So again in hindsight, now for a final four, when you have that type of space, do you do You play in front of him and then play widey, you know, guarding the rim, guarding over the back and make him throw the ball over the top. Is that like, if you could do it all over again,

how would you do it? Yeah? And hindsight, knowing what we know now, you'd probably put a guard on the ball just in case he like throws it to someone and get the handback for a shot. Because I was kind of concerned with awesome ball if they could have gotten a shot for Jerome Um and as a five man, he may not have recognized to do that. Um. And you know, just hindsight, I would have you know, put put just matched up normally put off at the rim

because that the lob was actually open um. I wish you would have thrown it from get have gone over time, but he didn't throw it. And then Kyle guy, you know, we're supposed to switch that scream, but smear or you know, we gave the ability to stay with him, and Samear stays with him. And obviously, you know, everyone knows what happens in the corner um. But you know, if you could do it all over again, obviously you would match up a little differently, knowing that you can't really deflect

that corner pass. Here's a here's a tough question to answer. Let's say he missed the third free throw, okay, and gave you guys new life. I'm just wondering what that huddle was like when you called time out before the third free throw, whether there was the because you know, I've talked to Bill about this, and Kansas talked about it.

You know, back at the time when they came back and tied the game to beat Memphis in the National Championship game, they walked over to the bench and they were like, it's over right, because you have the game one and then all of a sudden, now you're going

to overtime. They were like, it's over. Um. Obviously that wasn't even the case with Virginia in the championship games, as in, despite despite the fact that kind of some of a sort of similar situation right there up three, um, text Tech actually had the lead in overtime and kind of had a little bit of control there. But I'm just wondering if you thought that it was so devastating to be that because I'm sitting rows back and I thought it was over, Like I'm like, where's the where's

the where's the celebration? Like, oh, because the fouls in the opposite side. I can't I can't imagine trying to figure out get your balance and then go and play overtime. What do you think you guys would have been like in overtime? I mean, I think we've been pretty good. Um. You know, we had a similar situation, UM in the Kentucky game when you know, Bryce didn't give the ball to his point guard and then Horse dribbles it down and you know Horse gets get shoots the st to

try and win the game. Obviously, a little upset of we could have warn the game in regulation. Um, but they you know, they gathered, they got together, and you know, they still found a way to win that game over

time by by seven or eight points. So I feel like even when they throw over to the bench after you know, his second free throw and we were drawing up a play just in case he didn't make it, they're pretty locked in, pretty engaged as far as you know, if he doesn't make it, you know, we'll find a way to get a clean look. And I mean if we've gone to overtime, you know, they've been through so much this year that I think, you know, we gotta bounced back well and you know, trying to town the

way to win the game. What are those moments like in the locker room before the media comes in, when you're sitting there and you realize how close you know you had, You feel like you had the game one and instead you're going home? What What's what? What's that feeling like? Yeah? I mean obviously you just feel for the kids, um, because they're all just devastated. Um, you know, seeing seeing seeing a month of your guys just you know,

hugging each other and crying and just heartbroken. As as far as how the game then it was tough, um, but you know, uh, they were all very accountable and you know, coach came in and and basically said, we're gonna handle this loft, you know, just like we wouldn't victory with with class, and we're gonna handle it the

right way. And as a coach, Doug the coolest thing in the whole situation kind of getting feedback from Gott in the media after the open locker room basically saying, I've never seen a kid like Samir or a team like like Auburn handle such a difficult situation that well, Um, so as devastating as it was to be, you know, it's harder to get to the final four. I mean

it's it's it's damn near impossible to get there. Um. And to be so close to you know, playing in a game to win a national championship and having it and the way it did. Um, While it was all devastating, obviously incredibly proud of, you know, the kids, how they handle the moment um and just kind of how they represented themselves and in the university. How how have you How are you guys so successful in spite of the turnovers?

Like right, because it does violate it does violate some of the laws of basketball, which is like you know, like like I tell kids all the time, like, look, you know, if you just don't turn the basketball over. I told a couple of coaches, actually Texas Tech guys, they were getting ready to play Michigan, and they were like, how do you beat Michigan? How do you stop them? And I go, just don't turn it over? Like literally, they can't score. They know, they really can't score if

you don't just don't turn over. Which sounds easy, but you, guys, do you You allow them so much freedom, not just with the shot selection, but also you know you mentioned, you know, some of the kicking the ball out of bound sometimes, you know the Mexico State. How do you how how how how are you guys able to be

so successful in spite of the turnovers. I mean, I think at the end of the year actually didn't turn over as much, which you know, you and I think there's a lot of business risons on the one on our run. But at the same time, when we turned ball over, um, I think we were number two in the country in turn over persentage. So we create you know, a ton of extra possessions every game because we turn other people over, so we're able to get those turnovers

back just with how we played defense. So we're able to survive that because we don't win the possessions, we're trying to get the possessions up into you know, high seventies, low eighties, um in games. So when we do kind of get slopped at the ball and turned over, we're also creating a pace to do the same things. We're able to get those possessions done. I think our ability to turn people over allows us a little more freedom

at turn the ball over. But at the end of the year, you know, you looked at our turnovers, don't We didn't turn over that much over our last ten games. We did a really good job of playing fast while while taking care of the ball. And and part of it too is, you know, we put a shot up before we could turn it over, so it limited it limited turnovers and posts employee, which was really good. Yeah,

it's funny. You actually had six turnovers in the game against Virginia, which is you know, far and part of that is, you know, the way in which they play, um. Yeah, it Dave Logick, who was the coach at San Jose State. I remember he was one of his first years that I was doing a game and he goes, look, I told him to shoot whenever they want. As long as they that way, they don't, they can't turn over the shoot that was That was one of your closest friends.

Is Todd Golden. You just got the job at San Francisco. Obviously used to he used to be with you guys and album before. He's an assistant at San Francisco. Kind of going back home. Um, what's it like to see a to see a friend like in the coaching community, what's it like to see one of your when your

boys at such a young age get such a great opportunity. Yeah, it's it's Actually, he was on the phone, Todd, right before, right before we talk to you, and he was, you know, trying to get us to come out to the Bay to play a game. It's great to kind of see

him be so successful. And you know he obviously took a huge risk of leaving, um, you know, an sec assistant position to go out to San Francisco to be the associate head coach and in a league where you have Gonzaga and St. Mary's and b y U and some of the teams that kind of normally finished in those top three and then all they do is just rack off twenty one seasons every single year. And it all worked out perfectly for him. And you know kind of said this from from day one. No One Todd

is he's a rising star of the profession. And it wasn't surprise me at all if he gets out there, Cisco, you know, has two really good seasons and then you know, hell end up being one of the um youngest Power five head coaches and you know, in one of those leagues. UM, I think that highly of them. Um, but just to see his success and kind of see that that tree of coaches you know that we've kind of had here or just trees you know under under BP kind of grow and and watch guys like him get head jobs

that couldn't have into a better guy. Um. You know, he's an amazing coach and obviously we're just really excited for him and and kind of what he's gonna be able to do with that program. Um, Okay, what about

what about you? I mean, like, look, this has been it it's actually been a super meteoric rise, right and and on the other hand, like there's always going to be as Bruce Pearl's kid, and so some guys who are the son, they just sit there and they kind of they ride it out, you know, Like I've I've talked to Kellen Sampson, who you know, now he got the title of like future head coach whatever it is, head coach designate at at Houston. It's still a hard thing.

Like it's not something that he wanted. It's not something you can turn down. It's really what for you, Uh, was the future hold? Yeah, that's that's a good question. Um, it's only my second years an the system coach and you know they've one two sec final four. So um, you know, resume is you know it's solid right now. Um. But I think part of it is, you know, figuring out what the best opportunity is for me moving forward, whether that's a head coaching job and a love major

mid major. Um. If if that you know, the opportunity present itself or you know, go get my you know, my feet went under another you know, really good head coach. Um. Trying to find another guy in the profession, Um, who I can learn from, work under and vouch for because

the end of day. You know he is he is our head coach, and you know, but the word of your dad only goes so far sometimes, so getting out there and getting you know, someone else that you know that you can work for and and and teach you some things and kind of get your name out there. So, um, gotta be the right situation. Um, but definitely just you know, looking to learn as much as that possibly can while here and then kind of assess the next opportunity. So

you know, tons tons of options. Um, just gotta you know, figure out. I was like, come, um, you guys, you guys faced off with with with Duke earlier in the season. That was that was all the way back in MAUI. Yeah you saw Zion, I know in in high school, right, I mean all those you guys all saw him. Um, there's a lot of people like, oh yeah, we knew, Like I no one knew he was going to be this dumb Like, did you like, did you know he would be what he became as a as a college player.

I had a I had a feeling he'd be really good in college just because when you look at in person, you see his explosion, his quickness and and just the way he gets from point A to point B, he does it better than anyone. And that was going to translate over in the college game. UM. Obviously, you know

his shot making was was the one knock on him. UM. In high school, he was so much stronger and he was so much more athletic and quicker than everyone else that he could just get the room whenever the hell he wanted and and dunker finished over people at ease. UM. So would that have translated over into the college game. So we knew that he'd be a great college player. UM, but to this level. I mean, I'm not sure if

anyone knew how good he was gonna be. UM. And I think part of that is just how hard he's worked on his game. And UM, you know, he's so not to answer your questions. And I knew he'd be good. I did not know he'd be this good. Um. How did how did everybody? Um? Um? How did everybody missed on John Marin? That's that's a good question. UM. I think part of it was maybe the the AU team he played for. UM. You know, UM, it's a small a team in South Carolina that's got a bunch of

really tough UM. Scrappy players. Um, you know, guys that really wouldn't go notice because they don't play in the big the big tournaments. You know, it takes guys that will go onto side gains and and spend time in side gains, but no one else going to be in. I think you know, the guys at Merge State did

that and they recognized it right away. Um, So I think part of it is just, um, you know, he didn't play on the most prominent team to kind of get into the in front of the most prominent coaches, and there's only so many places that were able to kind of be in the summer, and you know it's not as and sometimes it's so spread out that you're

just missing a ton of stuff. So it's kind of one of those things where you know, if you sometimes you land in the right gym at the right time, kind of like we did with you know, with with Jared Harper early in his career, uh BT was and Trumo KPPP was inside gams watching the Georgia Stars young teams, um and just kind of fell on those guys and start on early. Not John or And it's a little different because he didn't play for the Georgia Stars. He

you know, played for like Team South Carolina or something. Um, so I think part of it is just being so to spread out. Um there are being so many different locations, which it's gotten better, but um, that's what causes you to miss on some guys like that. Yeah, and look, guys also get better. Like that's one of the things that like everybody thinks that everyone missed, Like we're gonna have Phil back around here part of this pod. And

he was, he was. He was that we were stayed when Damian Lillard was there, and and everybody's like, well, everybody in Oakland missed. Everybody in the pack twelve missed on Damian Lillard. My brother is like, look, he was a you know, a six one two guard and and and then he just he worked and worked and worked and made himself into a great player. Like a great player. And that's a that's it's a it's a one. It's a credence to him and then obviously to assistant coach

that can see what what a guy has within him. Um, the hardest guy to prepare for this year, the best player you thought you coached against, you preparing so much of the defense you guys faced Kentucky l s. You do, who would you say to about the man um? You know, PJ Washington was was. It was a tough one just for us because you know, he was his ability to shoot the ball um and then addition, you know, his

ability to push you up inside. So personally that was that was one the one guy was actually really concerned about with Cassius Winston UM and if we had that was my scott, if we had made it to the championship game in Michigan, state of one. UM just watching you know, I watched like ten or fifteen games of them, and they run so much stuff and he's involved in it in so many different ways, whether he's you know, setting pin downs and getting re screens, or he's in

ball screens and he's doing a million different things. You got a key on him. But then you know, if you do lock him up, he's able to get ten or fifteen assistant again. So um, really all year I felt pretty good about a lot of recoveries, but Pja was one of them. And then having watching cashes, you know, and and the week leading up for Final four, UM, I think he had been a handful for us. Last thing Um, the most underrated did you take your your

staff out? The most underrated coach in the SEC? You you get to see all these teams, a ton of teams in the SEC. I think sometimes the coaching goes by the wayside because we talked about the players and and everything else. Uh, to you, the most underrated coach that league is who right now? Um? My most underrated coach before last year was Mark Fox Um exs and knows wise. I thought he was really good. Um, they ran great stuff. But now in this league, Um, you

don't have to make one up. They all stand. Okay, I'll just I'll just say that you think they all stink, It's okay. You think you could draw circles around all this stuff? It's okay, Yeah, I mean, um, it's got to be. I mean, honestly, you want you want the best answer. I think it's cow as good as he is, like recruiting, Um, the way he's able to get that collection of talent and and and sometimes personality to to

buy in. He's able to deal with all the outside noise all in the early season when people saying that they're not good, Um, he's done a bad job. And then every year he just kind of finds a way at the end of the year for them to kind of start clicking. And you know, UM, I forgot what the numbers on his elite eights, but he's don the elite ate like six out of the last eight years or something like that. That's you know, it's it's really hard to do that. UM. And he's never up here.

He wasn't up for National coach and he goes here,

which you know, was kind of mind boggling. But UM, I don't know if he's underrated, but he definitely doesn't get as much credit as I think he deserves sometimes non basketball greatest part about the greatest moment you've been at Auburn, it was when Auburn football beat UM, Alabama saw Georgia and then Alabama, UM when they were both number one those like three weeks UM during the season on the littlest unbelievable into kind to see UM coach mals on those guys, you know, beat two number one

teams with one that I'm out of the few weeks, it was incredible. M opportunity, the energy on campus something was amazing. And now they're storing the field out to the alibone the game won the SEC well, so, um though it was part of the Boston basketball member we've had. Does BP still get a boat or is that only a Tennessee thing? Well, I think if he ever asked for one, he could definitely get one. Um, he's I think he's good. He's looking at a lake house here

in in the future, which will be cool. But um, you know he honestly haven't had time to kind of get out of the boat. So um so not not like it was in Tennessee, but I think if the everyone in thee you could probably get one. All right, will listen, Um, you're even more than generous with your time. Congratulations on what was an incredible season, and look forward to to talking with you off air. Maybe bring your dude Hayes down uh to to basketball camp this year.

We'll send you the day, will take him out me. Hey, OK, it'll be fun. You gotta see his jump shot. It's kind of wet now, like you know, lefties always have it like now, I mean, I mean it's it's spinning, right. He's kind of shoot with one hand like he's you should just saying this is this is actually a really funny. So I don't let I didn't let him. I didn't let my last year's third grader. I let third fourth grades.

I let him shoot threes. No, right, So I have one now that can kind of that can get it there and can shoot it without throwing it whatever. So he made when he got fouled in the in the game, uh in a game last weekend and I go uh And they didn't call a foul. He's like, Dad, did you see that? And one on a three point shot? I go, yeah, he goes, you know the song Old Town Road. I was like, yeah, he goes. He was in my head. And when I shot it right when the ball went in, the beat dropped. He's he's a

easy character. He is. All right, man, thanks to your time. I'm and uh, we appreciate you. Join us in the All Ball podcast. Brother, appreciate you him all right. That's it for this edition of All Ball. Make sure you download subscribe. Let's to the radio show at three to six Eastern every day, Monday through Friday on Fox Sports Radio. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is All Ball.