Pt 2. 7-year NBA G Rex Walters on Rough Overseas Experience, Coaching Transition, DI HC Success/Failure, Future

all the craziness that that's taking place. But the meantime, let's dig back in with Rex Walters. Okay, So when we last caught up with him, um, he'd taken us through his playing career, which of course spanned not just high school and two colleges, but also the NBA A sigh draft pick, and then he makes the league and he bounces around and then then what how do you

how do you get into coaching? And how do you go from playing to coaching to being a head coach at such a young age at Florida Atlantic and then why take the San Francisco job? And you're way tie here he shares with us what it's like to get fired. What he's done since, and how he watched his basketball now and what's left for his basketball careers? Only fifty one years sold. Alright, so let's tag back in. By the way, if you like some of the stuff that we do here, great way to listen is on a

daily basis. The Doug Olive Show airs from three to six Eastern or twelve to three Pacific on Fox Sports Radio. The I Heart Radio app Serious x M two SEV two oh three. That's Dan Patrick's channel. It's not the Fox Sports Challenge Acino a reminder to download, subscribe, rate, write a review. I write a nice review. I got some mean reviews. Maybe we'll do a mean review, um pod, that'd be fun. We could do it that one time. Anyway, let's take back in. Here's Rex Walter's part two. Yeah,

what was Spain like? Playing in Spain? Yeah, so I go to Spain. I go there about a month after I was released by the Heat. It was it was bad for me. I didn't like it. I went to Leone, Spain. It was really weird. Like, so you go to practice in the morning, you practice, you know, nine o'clock. You go for like three hours and You'll do a lot

of shooting, you do a lot of skill work. You understand why international basketball is as good as it is because and you have younger players, like high school kids that are working out with NBA, you know, NBA professional players. Your coaches are coaching you. So you practice for two and a half three hours, a lot of shooting, a lot of ball handling, a lot of skill work, and then you'd have you know, from twelve to about five, they have this thing called siesta. Everything's closed down. So

you're coming out of practice. You know how it is that you come out of practice, you want to get some foods, you want to relax, maybe go then go back to your apartment, take a nap, whatever, Like I couldn't find a place to eat. And the other thing is I didn't know I didn't speak Spanish, so you're basically eating bad food Like mcdonald' you're going to mcdonale

is way too much. They had a t G I F Fridays, you know in Grand Canary when I played there and so but but basically everything is shut down for like three hours. Nobody's working, nobody's out there, and then you go back to practice at night, you go from like five, like seven, seven thirty, and that's more up and down. You're gonna play, you're gonna play half court, you're gonna work on defense, and then the day's over

with and then it all starts over. And then when you're playing in Spain and you're playing on a you know, not necessarily a good team, like we were a team that only played one game a week, and so you play, you one game, you win the game, and like it's like m NFL football. Everybody loves you, you know, the things that you can't read in the paper, but they've

got great pictures. You're smiling, but if you lose, you gotta deal with you know, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, all the way to Saturday, where you know, people are talking about you, killing you, and you don't even know what they're saying to you because they don't speak your language. And I was a little paranoid. I'm American, I'm I'm in Spain. I'm trying to prey. And I played well.

I mean it's not like I didn't play well. But I remember one time walking in the locker room and kind of the the guy that manages the team had my passport, and I'm like, I cust the dude out. I'm like, don't you ever touch go into my bag, grab my passport because you hear stories like hey, they're gonna steal your passport. You can never leave, you know. So I'm cursing this dude out and I'm just thinking

to myself, this dude understands me. Now he didn't understand me before when I was speaking, but now all of a sudden he can understand what I'm saying. And I'm you know, m F and the dude. So that was it was hard. You know, it was hard for me. My wife we had let me see, the first time around, we had we had an apartment, we had two kids, my wife was pregnant at the time. It was that was a hard experience for me, and we weren't good. We're trying not to get relegated, so there's a lot

of pressure. It's not like the NBA. You don't go to the G League. If your team is in the bottom two in your league and this league you go down the league and it affects your sponsorships, it affects your money in terms of that organization. You don't want to be in the bottom too and get relegated to the second division. So there's a lot of pressure. I

think we probably saw it ted Lasso with soccer. It's the same way, like you don't want to go down a level, and everyone is taught, especially with the Americans. If you're a guy, that's that's counted on. So that was a big adjustment for me. The first time, I ended up tearing my meniscus when I was over there and I played about three games, and then I went back again after playing the A B A for Kevin Pritchard. I went back again and played about ten games and

then tore my calf. It was it was a nightmare. It wasn't a great experience for me playing And now now the body is starting to failure. Right now, it's like things, So how old are you under time? H thirty? I mean that you get to the point where you're you're warm up is about like thirty to forty five minutes right your workouts about an hour hour fifteen and then you're going another thirty four to five minutes afterwards, like you're spending three accwards to get an hour of working.

You know what I'm saying, because you got. I got torm niscus par my cab and the genitive this disease at like thirty thirty one, and you start to see the writings on the wall. Um, in your mind, are you thinking I want to coach your mind? And thinking I want to keep doing this, you know, and just keep the body together, Like what's going on in your mind? So we moved to Kansas City. I played two different

camps I played. I went to Toronto to playing weather like free agent workout camps, and then I went to Denver and played Summer League with them um and played well, like I played well my last game. It's funny we're playing against and again we talked about the confidence and all that stuff. I'm playing against Tony Parker in one of my last games and summer in summer league with the with the Nuggets, and I'm just going at Tony. Tony is going at me, but I'm like, I'm not

letting some dude from France kick my butt. So I'm talking to him, yapping at him, and they double t me and I end up playing like twelve fourteen minutes and so I should cut my last game of summer League. But that's again. When that when that aggressive, you know, confident dude hurt himself. But after that I talked to Mark. We're getting ready to training camp, and I say to Mark, like, hey,

what what do we got? We got anything? I said, I just want to a make good deal if I can get to make good because I don't want to go back to Spain. We talked about getting hurt twice when I'm in Spain. Can I get him make good? I played well in Toronto, I played well in Denver. What's up? He's like, Rex, no one's gonna sign you your You'd be an eight year veteran minimum, which is a lot more than a than a younger player. So at that point I just never forget this. I just

I'm on the phone. My wife's watching because she loves basketball, and I said, hey, I'm done. Then I'm gonna retire. And you know, honestly, to be honest with you, Doug, for about a month, I was like, all right, I'm gonn to play golf every day. I lived on a golf course. I wanna play about thirty six holes day, and by the time I get fifty, I'm gonna play in the senior League, which I had no chance of doing. But you want to playing the senior to Yeah, I want to play in the PGA Senior Tour at fifty

with a degenerative disc in your back? How are you gonna do that? I'm gonna say I was still in shape now, I'd still do my crunches. Like swinging a golf clubs different than having to you know, make a cut through a crossover, change directions like I'm gonna play golf like I probably wouldn't have made it, and you're right at the back. Probably would have caught up me later on. But but anyway, I did that for about a month. My WI wife's like, something's gotta stop. This

is ridiculous. You gotta get a job. And so I called around, called all the people I know, Roy Williams, pat Riley, Standban Gundy, Mark Church and Mark Church and helped me get a a UM what is it? A volunteer assistant job at Imporious State University working for a

guy name you may know, the name David Mo. David Mo, his father's Doug Mo, was a great be a coach And I was driving two and a half hours every day to be a voluntaire assistant Jeff Lender, who's now Wyoming uh was was his assistant, and I would I was there for about three months and then um, I find out about Valpos situation. You know, Scott Drew goes to Baylor they had the Patrick Denny he situation. Scott Drew goes down there. I called Bryce and say, hey,

what's going on? What's your father gonna do? And what's Scott gonna do if he has any openings on his staff? And Scott called me and said, would you like to be a graduate manager? We only got eight guys on scholarship. I know you can still play a little bit. Would you like just come? You're allowed to play if you're a graduate manager? And I said, well, Scott, I could probably make more if I went back overseas. I don't

really want to do that. I want to coach. And then right after I said that to Scott, about two days later, Homer Drew called me and said, would you like to interview for the job here at Valpo? And that's how I got my foot in the door into coaching. So you get good to Valpo Indiana, which is um right, I don't know what what feels perception of it is like for me, it's like one of those towns. It's like a truck stop. It feels like it's got like Walmart like everything. It's just on the way to South

Bend right from Chicago. Um. Yeah, like you'd come down a little bit off the NBA hive. You're playing overseas and and doing the minor league thing, the A B A. But you show up a Valpo and what's your first memories? Homer Drew just how you're right, there's two exits. Basically, there's two exits for Valpo. When you're on your little freeway that you've got one exit, you got a second exit, and then you're you're heading to South Bend. So you're

you're all right about that? Um. It was a Lutheran university. It was They really loved their basketball, Indiana basketball. It is very important. They would they would get good crowds for the games. Homer Drew was like super duper positive, like didn't really raise his boys, didn't want to get on guys. Which was different for me because I played for Wary Williams. I played for pat Riley played in the NBA, so that was different. The players were pretty good.

I learned a lot like you know when you when you played for a long time and then all of a sudden, you coach, you think you got it all figured out. You don't. There's a lot of things you gotta learn. How to deal with players, how to deal with levels. A little bit different level player than than you know, maybe what I've been around, but just really

good man like great hearts. You can see why Scott and Bryce have had success because they probably relate more to the modern day player than a lot of guys do. They're very positive people. Um. He gave me my first shot, who worked there for two years and went to the NA Tournament. My first year, we won the conference tournament, played Gonzaga. My second year, we weren't quite as good than Matt. Doherty gets sta f AU job. So Matt gets it obviously, that's part of the You played for

him at Kansas. He was assistant Kansas, and he saw a part of that family tree. He gets the job and immediately called you. Did you called him? Did you call coach Williams? How did it work? So? First I was down in Florida visiting my in laws and I found out about the f AU opening. I just drove to f a U and I just sat in front of the athletic director's door and said, hey, I want to interview for this job. I've been at out for the last two years and he and Craig Angelos was

the idea at the time. He was very nice, you know, he said, well, you know, ask me questions, spent some time with but that wasn't gonna happen at two years experience. And I when I go back to Valpo, Matt calls me and says, hey, do you have a legit chance at because if you do, I don't want to get involved. And I said, I have no shot at this job, like the guy just did a courtesy thing. I showed up unannounced. He said, well, if I if I got involved,

would you come with me? And I was on my treadmill and I'm like, yeah, if you get it, like I'd love to do it. So that's really how it happened. I didn't call coach Williams. Coach Williams knew nothing about it, didn't call any of my MBA people. It was really, you know, Matt reaching out to me. We had had discussions,

we had kept in touch. Obviously, when you lose a job, in North Carolina, like you reach out to the people you love and care about, Like he had two of the best jobs you can get noted aime in North Carolina. Like who gets jobs like that and then not to have good success at Notre Dame to go to North Carolina, has some good success and then get fired. Uh, you know you reach out you always. I think I always reach out to people when they're going through tough times.

Any coach or player that I have any kind of relationship, I'm gonna reach out. So basically he offered me the job. Um I was making like forty one grand to live in Boca a Tone the we had a hurricane go through the place that year. We ended up having a winning season. When I think fifteen and thirteen learned a lot, like Matt's a really detailed guy with recruiting, with how he wants to play, and I think he was also trying to find himself. He didn't want to run the

Carolina Kansas stuff. You wanted to break away from that. But uh, I learned an awful lot in just one year working for him, and then he got the s m U job. So then what you do? So Matt, give me a really good advice and says, hey, um, stay stay in Boca and where the job. Like when people see you that you want them to envision this guy could be a head coach. This guy and if you don't get it, you're gonna come with me to s M you like, it's a pretty good Situation's like,

so just stay there, deal with that. They're gonna hear here a lot of names. You're gonna hear a lot of people they're supposed to get the job. Just stay there, work, work with the players, you know, and and present an image that you could be a head coach. And that's exactly what I did. You know. You hear all kinds of names, like stan Van Gundy's interested. He had just been let go of the Miami Heats. I called Sam's like, are you really interested? And he's like, are you crazy?

You think I can want to coach at Florid Atlantic. There's no way in the world, Like, like, I just got done coach with Miami Heat. Like they're just using my name to try to bump up the job. He's like, I have no interest in being a college coach, So I I just I hung around. I hung around and about three weeks into it, Craig Angelis and the president called me in the office. They asked me if I wanted the job, what I would do if I got the job, how how I would lay this thing out?

And I really just said, hey, I want to continue with Matt started. You know, We're gonna run a lot of the same stuff. I'm gonna play the same way we're gonna I want a lot. I believed in the players he's recruiting. I helped recruit him, and I got the opportunity. I was there for two years. I had an interview at at at one place that I was gonna take. I didn't at the end of the day. And then I remember this, and we had decent teams, but as a young coach and uh, I still haven't

figured this one out. Like I had had some good players, but we had all kinds of disciplinary issues and so guys not going to class this, that and the other. And probably hurt myself because my best player, you know, suspended him ten games, spending another player, you know, five to ten games, and we ended up having eight eight fifteen my first year. I think we're two or three games under five second year. But then Glenn Sugiyama from DHR called me about the University of San Francisco, and

so that's how I got involved with that. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app search at that's our to listen live. So you've only been there two years sans from calling, but it's it's home and San Francisco. Now they put the money into it right where they've redne it and the building is really nice. But then it wasn't um was it just I want

to go home? Was it? You know that there's just a limit to for Atlantic and what you can do? Was the thought process and leaving so uh so quickly. So when I turned out, I turned out another job and I called my a D and I said, hey, I got two more years on my contract. Uh, is there in your way I can bump this up to four. I'd like to try to, you know, have some stability. Players are gonna know I got four years on my contract.

They know I'm gonna be here a while. And the idea at the time said, no, nobody's getting any kind of extension. He's like I'm on a one one year deal. Every year, I gotta do my job at a high level to keep my job. And I said, well, if you do that, it's gonna be really tough. I'm gonna have to keep looking. I'm gonna have to, you know, be open to other jobs. And that's when San Francisco cold and I said to them, I'm not interested. I just turned down a job. My wife's been going through it.

She doesn't want to leave. We have family down in Florida. Why don't you talk to such and such? And I'm giving names to people I think would be a good fit at San Francisco that have some California ties, and about a you know, two or three days later, the search from calls me again and says, hey, we really want to talk to you. We really want to get involved. And I'm like, I'm good. My wife is like she got steam coming out of her ears, like, no, we don't want to go to California. We don't want to

go back. And then about the third time he said hey, the search from said, hey, we can get you in the top three. You'll have a legitimate job chance at the job, and just come out and check it out. And so I did. But here's the thing. It was really smart by them, it was really dumb by me. I interview, and I interview at a hotel in Berlin. Game. I don't even go on campus. I don't see the facility. I don't see the gym, I don't see the campus,

none of it. It's just an interview, straight interview with their with their search committee. Do a good job. I know. Jim Bervelly and Jim Barelli gave me comfort. He had recruited me when I was in California playing high school basketball, so I had comfort with him. But I didn't know the job, right, I didn't know the job. But but I always say this. When I finished then interview, and I thought it went, well, you fly, You're flying out of San Francisco, and for whatever reason, this time, we

didn't fly over the Bay, right. We flew over the city. And I remember the plane like turning and I'm looking down. I see Olympic Club and I see the Golden Gate Bridge and I see downtown and like, this is really beautiful. This is really cool. Like if they offering the job, I'll take it, you know. And I'm just saying this to myself fly back Um. There was a lot of

issues with the administration at that time. When I took the job, the a D wasn't a favorite because you know, they went from Jesse Evans to Eddie Sutton to not having a coach and the way it was handled, a lot of the alums didn't like it. So the a D actually comes out and one of my former agents called me. Aaron Goodman called me like, hey, like, and he's like kind of recruiting me, And I'm like, is he recruiting me or does he want someone else to

get it? You know, like I'm really confused with all this stuff. And I talked to the a D and and sure enough I talked to the vice president of the kind of the CEO of the school, and they want to offer me the job. And we start going through it and I didn't handle it great again, not prepared me an assistant coach for three years being a head coach for two years. There are questions I didn't ask. There's things I didn't really follow up. But it's it's your first, like big job for me. I thought it

was a big job. West Coast Conference, Gonzaga St. Mary's. It's home, Like if they offered him. I'm gonna take it, but I don't ask the right questions. The norm situation wasn't great. It's funny when I was walking into the offices, and I don't know if you've been there, but like the old offices, they were painting the offices, so all the furnishment, all the offices were pushed in the middle of the room. So I couldn't even work in my office.

When I walked on campus. Um, one of the offices was a former toilet, like one of my assistants had to work in a place where you still fall the stumps to the yurnal and you know, the toilet like one of my coaches had to work in there. So and then I'm just I'm walking to the press compass and my my oldest son now looks at me and he says, Dad, you really think this is a better job than f AU And I'm like, I think so, you know, like I don't really know if this is

a good job. And Jeff Lender, who came with me because I was gonna hire an f A, you said, whatever you do, Rex, don't take it. I know Tommy Lloyd, I know the people of Gonzaga they're all telling me, don't do it. And again you talk about strength and weakness. I'm like, I'll figure out a way. Like I'll figure out a way. Let's lock in, let's recruit the right guys, let's we'll get after it. And so I end up accepting the job. I was there eight years. We had

some good teams, had some competitive teams. When twenty games, you think about San Francisco and then and Todd, I think has done a good job. Kyle Smith did a good job, but they had won twenty games and thirty plus years before I got there. So I was really proud of those things. A lot of things again that I learned in the process, because again thirty four, thirty

five years old, a lot of things to learn. And you know, you see a lot of these assistant coaches, like some of these guys that have paid their dues for ten fifteen years, that really learned about what it takes to be a head coach, I think they have a better chance of success. Has opposed a lot of these, you know, twenty and I'm not saying all of them, but twenty thirty that that haven't been through the process. Well, I hadn't been through the process to not know what

I didn't know. So but it was a great experience. Crede eight years. My family loved living there. We got to in I T one year, we wanted the postseason twice. Had some really good good players, good good guys um and we're just, you know, just on the cusp of getting to a West Coast Conference finals and having a chance to get to Nancy a tournament. How are you different as a coach at the end as opposed to start you talking about learning stuff and like what how

did you evolve as a coach? So as a young coach especially, you know when you when you're your mentors are the people you look up to. You know, Coach Willams is a very hard driven coach. Do what I ask you to do, right, do what I ask you to do well. At Kansas you've got players they're gonna do what you ask them to do well. Maybe not

necessarily going to be the case at USF. You know they're not gonna necessarily do And so Coach wayams with digest heels and when we were messing up right and we could take it like our players, you know, the players like Donna's Jordan, they could take it well these other guys because it's not quite the same level play. And I had good players, don't get me wrong him. So I was a hard driving coach. We would run and we would run gut checks and and guys would

just drop off. And then you get a reputation as being like too hard, too driven, too much, you know, And so those things at the beginning of my career carried over into years you know, six, seven and eight. Right, So he's gonna push you really, really hard. He's gonna tell you the truth. And our guys, you know, we we had a little bit of a transfer problem. We had twentysoone guys leave and every year we got good, we would lose a really good player and then we

take a step back. And so you have to always be able to tell the truth to a player. You gotta tell the way he can handle it. Well. I was a player coach. Williams would tell me, you know, I've never had a player more selfish in my twenties seven years of coaching. If I said that to one of my kids, that would be a really hard thing that they especially today's they with social media, they might not be able to handle that. Okay, so is this

this is this is a great part of the discussion. Okay, So Eddy Saith was the same way, right like he told my boy until my boy Mike, I won't leave his name out. Everybody who played we played with us.

It might transferred, and but his last and he was a four point student, but he couldn't remember secondary break Like my you're the dumbest smart kid we've ever had, right And I mean like he would just tell you, he would, he would just say it like it is like, oh, you know, don't you ever save that shot when you're playing in Cyprus next year? Right like he would just kill you. So is it these the players today? Is

it kids today? Was it specifically the ones that you had felt like you had to recruit at that level? Because I do think that there are some you know, like there are places in which though some of the tone and some of the wording is different, the feelings are still the same. Why do you think that you don't have the same type of coaching we had that we that we I mean, like, I don't know if

I I think I enjoyed it. I like, like I just I don't know, I don't know what I like I played for John with Cloud and he never called anybody out. It was it was because you came from an NBA thing, Like you know, you keep calling, you calling the office, you have to set up an appointment. You go to the office. You'd sit down, he was incredibly nice. You'd offer you somebody drink, somebody eat, throw

on the film. And then you get onto you, like a coach said, and like you A'm waiting for any film like you you you guys are embarrassing, embarrassing, you don't run the steps. I don't know how many that Like. I enjoyed, you know, the being called out. I enjoyed really being pushed. But I also like, you came from a dad who's a military guy. I came from a dad who's a basketball guy. Like that's how we were raised. Again, is it this era of player? Is it a societal thing?

Is it specific to the player that you had to recruit? Uh at at at San Francisco. That's some great questions. I had Some guys I could I could say pretty much anything to him, like Tim Dirkson, Angelo Clario, two guys that are still playing professional basketball to this day. Like I could be really hard on I made Angelo Clario, which makes no sense. He wouldn't shoot the basketball in

a game or blowing out a non division one. And we had a rule like if you miss a layup in in a in a certain drill, you had to go up in the stands and touch the Bill Russell's sign. Well, he wasn't shooting, so I said go run up during the game, and he did it, you know, and and so I could. I could get on him in the game. I had him run up like and it's funny. It's it's crazy because I told him, you didn't do it hard enough. Do it again, So it's funny. The kids

a great kid. He's like literally giving my kids high fives as he's going down the steps. But I could get on him like that and he was fine with it. And other kids if I got online that they couldn't handle it. I think some of it is society. I think that you have major transfer issue, not just in college, in high school and in a au like if it's not working, and I'll tell this story, my wife won't

like it. Like so I'm sitting there and I'm watching I'm at another game, and my wife texted me she like Gunner is my son, Gunner is acting like a crazy person, is really competitive, right, and the coach not saying anything to him. So I text her back and said, hey, let the coach handle it. Will deal with it later. Five minutes later, and I love my wife. She's mama bear right. She texts me like, the coach just bench Gunner. We gotta get him off this team. So I'm like, no, no, no, no, no,

that's not the way it works. And my wife, she's the best wife in the world. But that's that's what we're dealing with now as a society. Parents, if it's not working the way they wanted to work, let's just find the other thing. So when that happens, there's not there's not the ability to handle accountability. Why it's this,

it's this is great. Um. I was just talking to I just I was just talking to a football coach and we were talking about, like on social media, when coaches push back on transfer portal, you know, they're seen as these hypocrites because they take different jobs. The reality of it is that you're comparing the coach leaving and a player leaving. Is complete is at night and day, right, Like anybody with any sort of brains understands this. But but to the to the brain dead that are on

social media, it's MPO critical. The biggest issue is how do you coach kids right? How do you how do you coach them right? Okay, so we have to be careful about our language. If you bench them, I'm gonna leave. They're just they're gonna leave. But you can't keep throwing them out there. How do you? How do you? Like, I don't really understand how would work? And and look, leaving has always been the threat that a player has, right,

it always has been. And it was one of the things that coach Sutton used to say he loved about recruiting transfers. Is nobody transfers twice. Now people transferred to and three times you you go ahead, leave, nobody transfers twice. You go back to some n A A school and go try that crap in California. Right, That's how he used to But now it's like like if I said a guy, he's gonna leave, like and there's no repercussions for leaving if you can transfer and play right away.

Um So, and here's the part that I really struggle with most of us, not all of us, most of us who played or even you live, Like the things that you look back on with the you take the most pride in were the things that you had to overcome right that it wasn't you know. It's like for you like when you you you get somewhere and you get to north West, you get to Kansas and I don't know, like you're from Northwestern, I don't know if this guy and by the time you leave Kansas, like, oh,

he's a dude. Like you earned everything you got against you earned everything you got Northwestern. But we we have, we have. It's not the kids, the parents. I don't understand what the pushback is on earning things and going through some tough times in order to see the really good types. Well, I think I think it's it's a it's a major problem, to be honest with you. And what I'll say is this is with n I l

with social media, with with the instant transfer rule. Now, like if you watch a lot of college basketball, you call a lot of games I watched every day I sit here and I watched college games. Sometimes they'll turn it off after about five minutes, like I can't watch this, Like there's no account of Guys are shooting bad shots, Guys are turning the ball over, Guys are just hugging up against their man, like this is bad basketball. This guy, this coach could be in some trouble here if he

doesn't get it right. So it's a it's an unbelievable challenge. I'll say this when I watched Is though I went to Michigan State, is a wholesome, accountable and he recruits a certain type of kid, and he can do that at Michigan State. But he's not getting all the guys that he wants in terms of He's not like coach k when you recruit ten guys. You know. So he's really smart about Okay, I'm gonna recruit the kid. I'm

gonna get to know the parents. I'm gonna really figure out how this kid ticks and can he handle the way that I coach. I watched Greg Campy, same things. He's very not abrupt, but very honest, tells it like it is right. He has some good years, has some bad years, right, but you know what you're gonna get

with those teams. I think as a coach now, the challenges is you've got to be really good with your delivery about how you're gonna present things and how you're gonna help get guys get better, how you're gonna spend time with them. And you have to spend time with them, and they still may leave you right, but your ultimate end go Because here's the thing now, every college coach now is an NBA coach with not NBA players and

so and actuality. NBA teams have more power and they're still giving in to the player than college teams do. Because us, if you're on the contract with the NBA team, it's much harder for you to get out in college now it's the wild wild West. It's nuts like a kid could leave at the drop of a hat. So we're up against some really, really difficult things now. But you've got to be a great, great teacher. And I think that's what really helped me and it's probably why

I still want to do it. You gotta be a great I work for stand band Gunn. He's one of the best teacher. When people say he's too hard, our players are like, shoot arounds might be too hard. That was the thing that they were saying. He's an unbelievable teacher. And it's more about watching the film, understanding it getting buying from the player to have success. Now they may not always like him, but they know exactly what he's

trying to do is trying to get you better. And if you don't want to get better, this isn't the right place for you. We got to find another place. So but you've gotta be really, really smart in the recruiting process about who you're recruiting, who he's listening to, because now it's not like back in the day. You probably had your father, maybe a brother, like I had my father and that was it. Maybe talk to my

AU coach who was a pretty smart guy. But now these kids got fifteen people that they're listening to, and on top of that, they're looking to trying to get their likes up on their Instagram and their Twitter. So it's it's full on crazy. What's that like? I'll tell you how I got fired in San Francisco, so I

always tell the story. So we're driving, I mean and my wife are driving down the street getting ready to get some burritos on Geary Street and Scott Sibill calls me and we we went fifteen and fifteen that year, like we played Sound as a State in an exhibition or scrimmage. We got throttled by thirty and I looked at her after that first scrimmage, I'm like, we might not win three games this year, Like we're bad. Like Tim Dirkson was a tough kid, was a senior playing.

He was a six three power forward for US, played his butt off. We had Devin Watson is a sophomore, good player. He was a sophomore at the time, and then it was all a bunch of freshmen and guys that didn't played. We lost everybody from the year before except those two guys. I was like, we might not win two games. We went fifteen and fifteen that year, and I look at my wife and I said, Scott just called me. I think I'm gonna get an extension,

Like I coached my butt off this year. We had a really good year considering and she just looked at Me's like, no, you're getting fired. And I'm like what. She's like, Yeah, it's it's it's time. You've been there eight years. We've had some ups, we've had some downst some good years, had some tough years. Just like just like I just don't I don't feel good about this. So I walked into his office. Uh, it's eight o'clock in the morning. So I called him and said, I

want to flight at ten thirty. I'm gonna go see my daughter playing in Vegas. She was playing at Bakersfield. And he's like, fine, this won't take but a second. He just he just looked at me and said, hey, I'm gonna make a change. And I said okay. And I was like, everything go with the buyout. That's all. I said, everything go with the buyout. And he's like, yeah, well, well we'll figure out. Was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Is everything good with the buyout? And he's like, h

we'll figured out, Rex, don't worry about it. And I walked out of the office. I texted my steps, said hey, please come in the office, and they came in the office. I said, please text all the players. Let's get them down the locker room. I sent a tweet. I said, hey, it's been a great eight years. I really appreciate you know, the players, the coaches. The opportunity went down talk to the players. One of my assistants, who I think I

don't totally trust. I thought he knew what was going on, acted surprised, and I just said, hey, I'm really sorry, guys, this is not gonna work out. Let me know what I can do to help you. Um, I'm gonna flight to Vegas. Get on the flight to Vegas. You know, hand out, how did you get fired? You get cut? You get all these text messages and land. Once I landed in Vegas, I got a whole bunch of tech.

Stan Van Gundy, who's an unbelievable person, text me and says, hey, come out to Detroit, can watch his play, hang out, get out of San Francisco. And that's what I did. I went to Detroit for about three or four days, state at his house, went to Carolina for two days to see coach Williams. Flew act San Francisco. We started packing up and I went back to our home in bok rautun So, what what Coach Williams say? He said, it's funny, It's he was great, you know he he said,

you know what you're gonna do? How can I help? And I said, you know, Coach, I still like to coach again. He's like it's he's like, he's like, it's it's it's funny, Rex. Because when I was coming up. Coach Smith could make a call and he can open up a door for you. He's like, and when I first started, I could kind of do that as well. He's like, it's changed so much since then. Now they got these search firms, Like I'll help you all I can. He's like, I just don't know how much I can.

And so I said that Coach, I don't expect a miracle, you know, but I appreciate you, and I wanted to come down and watch it by his practice. And that was really pretty much the conversation. But I got fortunate. I got the I got the G League job. Stand offer me a job to coach and the G League, which I loved, uh and it made me a better coach, a better teacher. You can't and screaming at pro players like you can't do it, but you can still get

your point across. If you're teaching is good, if your video is good, if you know how to break things down. So learned a lot from that experience and then got called up with the Pistons. As a guy who hasn't lost is kind of never didn't lose your confidence really, maybe until you went to Spain as a player as a coach, it's much kind of the same thing. It's like it's like you're driving the car and you're like, in fifteen fifteen with that squad, are you kidding me?

I should get the you know, coach of the freaking year, right, because now the the other side to it is like, hey, eight years, those are your guys, that's who you recruited, right, So that's that if you want to take the negative to it. But inside, in your in your gut, when you get fired into a whirlwin you're doing all these things, do you question yourself? Well, you have to. I mean you have to look at yourself and figure out what

you could have done better. And I think the things that I looked at were number one is as a leader of a program, right, as the as the guy that everyone's looking to, you have to be in control a lot more of yourself first and then everything else. If you watch me on the sidelines, I'd get on refs, I'd get on my players like you have to be you're the head of the chicken, kind of like a point guard. You're a great point guard. You've got to

be under control. If you're wild and crazy at times, your team is probably gonna be well and crazy, and our teams were. Our teams were highly competitive, like tough, physical, like god after it. But to get the most out of your team, you gotta also have a certain amounticum of control and how you deliver your messages, how you get your point across to your team's, how you build a culture in terms of Yeah, I mean people always talk about culture. I said, the best thing for cultures

get a great player. That's about all the right things. You're gonna your culture is gonna be really good. But as the head coach, you also have to set the tone in terms of who you're bringing into your program and how you're gonna coach them. So those are things I really looked at when I talked about myself how we would do things from a culture stand point. In terms of building guys up and not just breaking guys down. This isn't the seventies, eighties and even the early nineties

where you can get on guys like that. You've got to be really good in your teaching, you've gotta be really good in your delivery, and you've got to be able to break guys down, but build guys up. Even at a higher level. I think um. Working for Standard, I learned a lot about the defensive side of the ball. I think that made me a lot better. We weren't very good in our defensive teams weren't very good. Our teams weren't very good defensively. I got better in those areas.

But I think the biggest thing was and I even asked assistance and say, hey, you're not working for me, now, you know what do I need? What? What could I have done better? What? What did you struggle with? Because we had turned up with coaches too. Quite honestly, we had guys and sam Sis was a hard place to be an assistant coach because real estate is really expensive. It's not like you're gonna buy a house, You're not

making a lot of money all those things. But you know, I talked to coaches that I really respect and trusted about that as well, because you have to look at yourself and figure out how you're gonna be able to do it better if you get another What they say, well, they said some of the same things I just told you, you know, like like you know, at times, your delivery of things, guys that you recruited couldn't take it. Um,

your expectations. There's nothing wrong with having those expectations, but you've got to be able to get us to believe that we can do it, as opposed to like when I grew up as a player, someone said, hey, you can't shoot three and said, oh yes, I can't. Let me show you. Well, you know, some kids nowadays and even some coaches say, hey, how in the hell did we come up with this? And this kind of important? This isn't gonna work. This is kind of stuff to

get you fired. Right. Well, you can say that to me, but you can't say that to coach because he's thinking about just getting fired, as opposed to, Hey, this is where we gotta get better. You know, we gotta know the pick and roll coverage is coming out of a time on how it could change, and that's gonna give us a chance to be successful. I said, just those two different deliveries, like you're not gonna kill somebody or across somebody as a coach or a player if you

deliver it that way. And that's the way that I grew up. I grew up with the way, Hey, you're the most selfish player I've had in twenty seven years of coaching, Hey, you don't play defense, You're never gonna play here. That's what I grew up on. But that's not what I had. I had. I had a weekend. I have like a you program, So I had a weekend and my son is, uh, doesn't I have an older team? There's they were like, thirteen is gonna be

four teams? Ever, my son wasn't on the team. He was at summer camp and so I'm coaching party was I was ticked because, like, what am I doing coaching this team? Like you said, not my kid? And I like, and I like, I've had some of these kids three or four years, but we sprinkled in a couple of other really talented kids, and I just I didn't There was one kid in particular who was really selfish and the dad was a problem. But I actually called the kids in and I and there's three of them that

were really talented guys. The most selfish motherfucker's everywhere those jerseys and you're thirteen years old and like you're you're you're looking at me, but you're not actually listening to me, you know, passing like you should watch this. This is embarrassing to watch. You're just so selfish, just past the ball, and you'd actually beat a team that you're better than, but trying to do it by yourself, you're losing to a team that they're playing together and you're not right.

And so you know, like the next week, I texted one of the dads like, Hey, it's such and such coming. He's like, you know, I can't believe you called my son a selfish motherfucker. And I was like, well, he was like, it's not doesn't mean that's who he is, that's who he's playing. Like it's like, really, yeah, we just it's not how we wanted to. I was like, okay, yeah, okay, like somebody's gonna because somebody's gonna say that you at some point in your life. And you know, um so

I get it. I mean I think there's you have to you have to get the right kids, which you have to also evolve in it just times and just anguage wise or whatever. Um oh, Actually I think I always think it's funny because like, if you sit in the locker room and guys talk to one another, this is the language of the masses, right, this is how we talked to one another in basketball, And yet what a coach used the same language like no, no, no, that's old school coach, Like that's really it's really not.

Well if you listen to just if you listen to. Sometimes my Sun will put on some music and I'm like, oh, it's unbelievable. Are you kidding me? Listen? Listen, this is this is a great point, okay, because you and I are not we're not something like you know, we're not listening to waltz music whatever. Like I grew up with the rapid hip hop. I think it's worse now, and I'll tell you why because no one because in order

to be successful, you don't need a radio version. Right. Literally, every song you download for your kid is has the E next to it. Now you can search and search and search for the clean version, but it's it's a lot. I think it's I think it's worse and I'm not and I don't. I think it's worse. I think the language in in rapping hip hop is way worse. And it's because everything is downloaded digitally, so you don't need radio airplays in order to get attention. Well, I was

driving home. My son had a game yesterday. I'm driving home and I had one song, Uh, bounced to the ounce good song like it's got a good like it's a good song, right, Um. And then the next song comes on and I'm like, oh jeez, explicit. And then I go to the next Oh geez, explicit like I was like, I was like pace. Every one of these songs is explicit, like you're lucky. I mean, you're you're you're better not because I can't find It's tough for me to find the clean version nowadays because put it

out explicit, the kids won't listen to it, right. So yeah, when these kids say, oh, you know you talk to me too harsh? Yeah, I love that way. Yeah, my son, I did my son to a barbershop and and he was like in the barbershop and they're like, oh yeah, turnout the music. You got a little kids in here. He's twelve. My sons like, yeah, I have this song on my phone. We're good like you? I mean, what am I gonna do? Um? Sam? How did how did

you live in San Francisco? Like you made a good amount of money as head coach, but at San Francisco did you buy? Like what did you did? They give you an interest free loan? Like how did it work. Yeah, so we lost money. My eight years in San Francisco, we didn't make money. I'll just put it that way. Like we we lived there because like we love San Francisco, we love being in California. My mother was going through things medically, so I wanted to be closer. She lived

in Vegas. We had a sixty forty shared appreciation loan at San Francisco, and that's how they made it work. So we owned they owned forty. And then the biggest stress of that was when we got let go. I had to sell the house in sixty days, which ended up not being a problem. We actually made some money off the house and we lived ten minutes from campus. I walked to work every day. Um, so yeah, that worked out fine. But that's how you make it work conception.

The biggest thing for me was my assistance. Like, if you ever talked to Sundance Works, let him tell you the story about where he was living. You know he's now at Wyoming with Jeff Lender talked to Will Martin, who's a head coach at Missouri Western, and where he was living. I think there were roommates at the time. So to me, I had a lot of assistants live in my house. Michael Lee lived in my house for a while, Brent Cruz lived in my house for a while.

Wyndale Raeford lived in my house for a while. So you had to figure out how to make it work. At first, when I got there, we had apartments, like one apartment. Jeff Lender lived in one, which you know was a whole different another story, because you know, he walks his wife's walking on campus one day and there's a dead body, you know, on the campus, and she's walking her two kids. But you know, we we we experienced a lot of interesting things when I was at Sancisco,

but housing was always a big issue. One thing I'll say about Samcy, I'm sure they've done a better job in that area. I know Scott even though he fired me and I needed to probably needed to be fired. And I think my wife is right, I needed to figure out some things to become a better coach. But the schedule has gotten a lot better. I mean, Todd has done a good job. I kind of watched from afar,

but I think they've left home maybe twice. Those things make a difference, you know, And and and so the office is my last year of office has got redone, which is really nice. They've redone. They're they're they're redoing everything there, which is like, you know, thirty years forty years uh after they should have know. And I mean they're they're even I've talked to they're even honest about it. I Matt played. It's funny. I've played in the Golden

State Tournament in some tournam or whatever. We played San Francisco was in sixth grade. We wanted and I was like, that place is a dungeon. That was my only I've been there like once. I was like, that place, it's the worst I've ever like, it was like the land that time forgot, Like yeah, you could actually see you can actually feel like Bill Russell and Casey Jones played here, because it feels like Bill Russell and Casey Jones just

played here. Right, That's how dingy it was. And the they're playing home games is People always said this about Kent State in the mat right, why was Kent State forever the best program in the map, Like because they bought more games than everybody else, you know, it was it was really that That's why they won twenty games. You buy two more wins than everybody else, and you're gonna win twenty games more more more often. Um, it is about it is about investment. Um okay, So you

go coaching the G League. How different is it? You mentioned how you get onto players, but in terms of schematic like I went to a Miles Simon's my best friend in basketball. We played together since fifth grade and I watched him coach one. He's awesome. But to like second shot clock, you're basically you. They got to get into it and then they you just kind of gotta

let them play and give them a framework. And then every once in a while, you know, when they're not playing well, you call a set or you call an io, you know, and then you do your magic really after your time outs or on dead balls. What was that like for you to go from you're coaching in San Francisco. You have a system, you have eight guys, recruit them too.

Now you've got the turnstyle thing in the G League where guys are getting called up, getting cut and it's harder to coach because you have to just let them play with the twenty four second shot. Yeah, so you gotta you have to control what you can control and there's certain things you can control. You can control in terms of transition defense, and that being an emphasis of we're gonna eliminate the ram, we're gonna protect the paint, and we're gonna close out and you gotta you are,

which you emphasize. So that was a big thing that we really worked on and tried to emphasize working on closeouts. I think you're right about letting them play, but you've got to give them a framework, and you talked about that a framework of Hey, this is how we're gonna play the game. These are the actions that we're looking for. This is the spacing that we want. Here are the cutting actions. Here are the screening actions that we want.

I think a t O s are really really important in that league because you're always looking to get momentum. So after if you're in the time out really trying to diagram something, you're gonna get a quality look too. Again, give guys confidence, give guys, get guys quality looks. When if you get Jordan Crawford, who was a great player at Xavier, if you get him open look, it's going in like it's you can do that San Francisco. It might be an airball, like you don't know what's gonna

happen with that. That's interest in professional basketball in college past. You get a guy, guys open, it's gonna make yeah, no question. So you know, those are things you've gotta

be really good. You've gotta be good in your A T O s, You've got to be good in your pick and roll coverage, calls, your your timing in terms of how much time you have to teach and coach, you gotta be really good because you're gonna get about forty five minutes to an hour in terms of practice because you're playing so many games, right, and then your film work has to be really really good both individually.

We had each coach had about four players, which I think I would I would work in college to a to a certain extent, but also your delivery in terms of film that you use to show your team. So I think that's the thing. The biggest thing that I learned is just the use of time. You've got to really really be good with your use of time of what you're showing them, what you're gonna teach, how you're gonna gain momentum right, and things that you can control in terms of what you can take away as a

defensive coach. So that's why you know, I watched I watched a lot of NBA basketball because you can still learn so many things and just how guys play the game, the things that they emphasize, the things that they're gonna take away. And you know, it also helps when you have good players. I mean that, there's no question your success is always going to be determined by the level of talents and buying that you have from your guys. Okay,

so now what's next for you? Like, you've done seven years as an NBA player, You've played at the very highest level of college basketball. You've been a head coach for ten years, decade of head coaching success in college basketball. You're connected with the Carolina family, have done the NBA assistant thing as well. So you have, like you checked, check the check the box boxes of all this different stuff. But you have, you know, thirty more years to do

what you want to do. What do you want to do? Uh? You know? Right now, I'm calling games for Oakland University, so I go both there on the men's and women's side. I've got a few games I'm gonna call on radio, which which I'm looking forward to to do that. I'm trying to work on some of the media things on that side, but also keep my eye out as you get to March and you hate to see guys lose jobs, and you know because I've been there and I know

what that's like. But if the right opportunity comes up, I'd like to do that again. I think I have things that I want to show that I can still do uh and do better than I did the first time as a I would like to think a guy at fifty one is gonna be a heck of a lot better coach and have learned an awful lot than he went in his thirty four thirty five, So that's a possibility. We really love living in Michigan. I get to see all of my son's games, which is the

first time I've seen. I have a senior in high school right now. I think I've seen a total of eight of his high school games, and two of them have been in the last you know, two weeks, So that's been fun for me. My middle schooler, I've got to see all of his games. I really didn't get to see him play, so that's fun. I'm blessed and fortunate we've done well financially, but I do think the game still calls me and I would be interested at

the right opportunity came up. And if not, I do like, you know, watching good commentators guys that I can listen to. I listened to your podcast with Doctors, which was Alaric. You guys were very funny and very direct in some of your beliefs, which I thought was really funny. But I enjoyed calling games as well, so that might be something if I can get my foot into some different doors. How did your Your oldest one is is ACR younger one is Gunner. Gunner is the senior Ace is the

seventh creator. Okay, how good Gunner? Gunners good? He's a good player. He had he had seventeen and eight the other night, you know, points and assists. They've got a nice team there two and oh right now. This is his fourth high school though. That's a tough thing for him, is recruitment. He's got some schools that are looking at him, which is nice. He wants to play at some level. Um,

he's a good player. He's he's he's fun to watch and and aces really because of his older brother I think that's really helped him, you know, really fall in love with the game. So it's been fun to watch both of them play. So is he a Division one player hen a Division one player? I think he's definitely. I think he can definitely play Division one basketball and be a good player. I compare him to guys that I had. You know, he reminds me of Frankie Ferrari,

who transferred from ME. I recruit him as a freshman, end up being All West Coast Conference player man Frankie. Uh, Frankie thought he should play a lot as a freshman sophomore, he wasn't quite ready, but when he was a junior senior, he was a heck of a player. Um Cody Doling's the guy that lets me is wet. He reminds me a little bit of Cody um Cody left his senior year, So you know, those are the type of guys that

that I think he reminds me of. He just he's five eleven, he's a hundred and sixty pounds, soaking wet. But I sent a picture to him the other night because Steph when he broke the record, Steph with playing the pro am and I got a picture of him. He's snuck in the picture with Steph. Curus said, if you want to congratulate Steph, tell him you're gunning for him because you're you're a five eleven hundred sixty pound guys.

So we'll see what happens. He's fun to watch though, and then the younger one, and then what about eight that we'll see seventh grade, you know, like right now, he's different than said I got seventh grade squad, Like, yeah, he's about five five nine five ten bigger than everyone else. Yeah, yeah, so we'll see how much he grows. He's different than Gunner, but Gunner has been a good influence. He had seventeen about thirteen minutes, Yester. That was really shocked when I

looked at the numbers. I can't yell at him, you know, during the game, I gotta take notes, and I sent them notes afterwards. I was like, you've got seventeen points about thirteen minutes, So, um, we'll see. But I think you love the game, you know what I mean. I gotta if these guys love the game, they'll they'll find a way to make it work. And Gunner definitely does. I think Ace is still urged to tell, but but

he really does enjoy it. Do you stantly worked with him or or do you stay stay away from it because it's it's too hard. Gunner I worked a lot with him and Addie who played divisional and basketball, worked a lot with her Drew as well, who walked on at Stitts and was a pretty good player. So yeah, I do. I mean, it's high school season right now, so probably not as much. But it's funny. All the stuff that I that we work on a lot of it I stole from John b. Line. We stole that

when I was in Detroit. All his all his um fundamental ball handling, passing and in shooting and stuff. I mean, we stole a lot of that stuff from him. So and you can tell when Gunner plays he's at least been taught some some pretty good things. Last thing, um, most impressive guy you coached against who no one would like, they don't like, you know, obviously, everybody brings down a big name you coached in the G League, coached in college basketball, various levis. Give me a guy who just

really impressed you I coached against. Wow, that's a that's a really good question. You're talking about the NBA level whatever you want, just somebody who pops out as you're like, man, you know what that guys, he's really good. Yeah, man, he really sent me. That's a that's a tough one because I'm one of those coaches that kind of like picks guys apart. Yeah, no, I I get it, like they got put sometimes to our guys that really impressed you.

You know, you know there was a guy that that really never made it to the league and he played with Patty Mills and just off the top min Mickey McConnell. People on the West Coast will know, right. I think he's an assistant St. Mary's. Yeah, like he he was, you know, he was going to he was going to New Mexico and he was gonna play for UM. Well am I forgetting the head coach at Liberty, Um, you know what you're talking about. He was the head coach in New Mexico. He gets fired and they got they

got him late at St. Mary's. Like he's an unbelievable player, Yeah, really good. Like it's funny. When he started out, we were game planning. We thought we could take things away from him and just like Delavadova, and Patty Mills. We knew about those guys, you know what I mean, You knew about those guys. With Mickey, you could like we game planned and he would figure out the game plan

and just attack it. And I was and Randy get some credit for that too, but I was like, goodness gracious, like, okay, we're gonna play him in a drop, We're gonna force him this direction. You know, we're gonna make him finish at the rim. And he would always figure out ways to beat us, and so, uh, you know, don't like giving St. Mary's a lot of love, but uh, he was a guy that people in national wat nationwide wouldn't necessarily think, but he was a really good college player.

I'd have to think about the G League. There's a lot of good players in the G League that it's funny, like guys that couldn't make it in the NBA. There was a guy that played for Sue Falls and made it, made it with Golden State for a little bit and not from getting what his name was, but he was a great leader, couldn't shoot it, but just figured out ways to win. And those are always guys I really enjoy watching and even coaching against I'll look his name up and i'll tex it to you. All right, So

let's let's do this. Let's let's table this, and then sometime mid year we'll just you'll you'll send me a couple of uh NBA teams you want to talk about and some of the college stuff you want to talk about, and we'll revisit it then. But the meantime, you've been more than gracious for your time. I really appreciate it. And uh, this is awesome and it's an amazing journey right like you're fifty one, you got thirty more years left to figure out what you want to do and hoop.

I appreciate now, I've been really blessed. I've never I haven't worked a day in my life, but I like to say I worked really hard. So I appreciate you letting me come on. I've always we've known each other from Afar, We've we've crossed paths a few times, and so uh, and I like to show like I guess the doctors shows funny like doctor just just crazy, you know, and you're he's he's in, he's in. Uh, brother, thanks thanks for joining me, and have a great, great day,

all right, man, take care than you. Amazing stuff. Right now, you feel like you totally know a guy. You have a completely different sense. I mean, I did know that his mom was Japanese, had no idea that most of his friends were from that background growing up in San Jose, did you? Of course not. I remember the Northwestern thing. I didn't know why he transferred. I didn't know a lot of the stuff about playing for Roy Williams, and

I definitely didn't know how he got into coaching. And I was intrigued to hear why he felt like it didn't work out in San Francisco and why he left Lord Atlantic for San Francisco. That's great stuff. Rex has told me he'll you'll join me. We'll talk more basketball analysis, both NBA, which of course he's coached in and college throughout the season. But I really appreciate all the time you spent. I appreciate the time you spend downloading as well.

Remember the Doug Godlip Shows daily three to six Eastern Cultrough Pacific. You can download that as a podcast as well. Um, if he liked it, you didn't like it, whatever, feel free reach out on social media. We're on uh Instagram at god Lip Show on Twitter at god lip Show, and then of course it's the Doug gotlip Show fan page on Facebook. If you have a suggestion for a guest, we're open to him. Send it in a d M and I'll see if I can get him on. In

the meantime, tell a friend about it, Retweet it. I hope you enjoyed it. My thanks to Rex Walters. I'm Doug Gottlieben. This is all the