KJ Live - Dorian Lee

high school, and some MBA athletes. Dorian Lee and his training is rooted in an explosive movement, functional movement, quick release, shooting, seamless trasitional ball handled, exposed to play and exposed to finishing. Man, that sounds like a lot. Let's welcome in my man. Dorian Lee is in the building. What's up? Deeply, have been a long time bro. So it's good. Like I said, it's good seeing you and excited about just having that conversation.

Man there like you. We've talked off line about the vibe even years ago. Uh, forward thinkers have this this way of connecting, and I knew you were a forward thinker. I knew you had some, uh some big things in store. Man. So I'm honored, man, I would have to do the do the bow down. I'm honored to be on the podcast, my bro. No, Man, I appreciate you for jumping on man and blessings you know have been bountiful for me

and for you as well. Man. But I wanted to get you on the pod specifically because just to give all this a little bit of background, I met d Lee down in Atlanta around two thousand and five. I think we was at Running Shoot. So we was at Running Shooting and all my my who pends out there know exactly what Running Shoot is. It's over there, what East Point, Yeah, yeah it was. It was on Metropolitan Parkway, yeah,

the Avenue. Yeah. What revitalized actually spearheaded the revitalization of that part of town because that town, part of the town was known for the strip clubs, for you know, the drug dealing and things of that nature. And it was amazed at how a basketball facility kind of changed

all of that. Man. It was beautiful. Man. Running Shoot had about what six eight eight twelve courts, had a barbershop, you could eat, you can lift weights, and so during the course of during the course of my workouts, I think I was down there doing trying to try out for the Hawks or something. But I had met Dorian Lee in the gym and we start chopping it up and we'd be rebounding for each other. We'd be working out a little bit, but it would be a daily thing. Man.

We kind of had this bond and camaraderie. Man, did I didn't see you again for nothing? Yeah, for another fifteen years. Man, we finally reconnected. But I wanted to get you on the show because man, I I love your story, I love your journey, and I love how you express your journey. Brother, I wanted to know how you got your start. Where are you from and how did you get your starting this basketball? So I'm deep South. I'm from Mobile, Alabama, football country. Viger High School where

I attended was actual ESPN National champs in football. So it wasn't a basketball It's not a basketball part of the country, right. You know, we're Alabama and Auburn. No pro sports teams, uh, you know, major pro sports team. So you know we were kind of afterthoughts, you know, and then you talk about just a little bit to the left in Mississippi. You know, you got your literial greens, your mark mood abdu Raos and they were allowed to

really play. We were more defensive oriented. You know, people like me were actually shun who let that ball fly? You know, we were shunned in a sense. So, uh, it was it was a funny uh placed the start in terms of your basketball journey, but um, you know that's where it started from me. I ended up you know, lant the city and scoring a second in the city and scoring behind Antonio Lange my senior year, and uh

in high school. He went on to play at Duke to obviously grand Hill's roommate, you know during that time. So Tony has had an incredible college and professional career in terms of coaching, playing overseas, the whole now has done a phenomenal job. But I ended up going to Juko. I didn't have any offers coming out of high school, you know, not because of the game. I believe, even though I wasn't in my opinion when I looked back

at I wasn't that good. I was athletic, I was you know, explosive, I could score, but I really just didn't have the true understanding of the game. But I had knee surgery to knee surgeries before I left high school. So people wanted me on crutches to the wait and then we'll try out and whatever. And I was like, no, man, I wanna, I wanna. I want to ink something and lo and behold. Uh. This was the funny stories of it.

But the laughing stock junior college where we used to jone people that hey, man, you're gonna end up going to Bishop State, that's where you go. You ain't even good enough. Guess where your boy ended up. So we were jonah and man, it was one of the best things that ever happened. Led him in score. My first year fourteen and a half, second year nineteen and a half was an all star selection, had uh multiple Division

one offers. Uh, it ended up coming down to a Division one, Division two, so I had Southeast Louisiana, had McNeese State, Western Carolina, but it came down to Western Carolina and North Florida, which is now Division one but was was D two at the time. And it was you know, when you talked about making those decisions, I was. I was in love at that time, so I wanted to be closer uh to my girlfriend. So I made

a decision, a permanent decision on a temporary relationship. Uh. And I ended up going to North Florida over Western Carolina, and uh so that's that's kind of where I started, man. And you know, I played six d points in college, had had a decent career, got into my coach my senior year, went back to spring Hill College in a i A ranked number four in the country that year. We were loaded, had had a good college experience. Uh and then I was like, you know what, man, I

I want to make my money doing something else. Man. And you know, it's it's weird because I already had a child. My oldest daughter is thirty one now, and she was she was small then, and I was like kind of almost like uh uh disenchanted with with basketball at that at that moment, you know, went over to Mexico for a tour, played well, but my heart really

wasn't totally in it at that point. Man. So you know, I got back worked in Corporate America for some years, and I finally, man, just got to a point I was a pharmaceutical wrapped my last stint in corporate America, and that was supposed to be the cure all, end all job. And when I got it, I realized, Man, I don't want to work with anybody. Yeah, and it was it was different. So, man, I tell you I left.

I have some real estate, already had seven properties I bought by the time I was twenty five, I got in with some business partners in the Network marketing company and I'm telling you that. I was like, dude, I'm getting out of court for America. And I literally left, and you know, the bottom fell out with the real estate. And so I was on a trip to New York and this this guy was sitting at my wedding. It was a wedding event we were at and sitting at

my table was Jay Hernandez that played at Hofstra. He's an assistant coach now with Charlotte Horner and uh we were sitting talking man, and Jay was talking about Look man, you know, uh I hear I was talking about going back to play. This is around the time that I met you. A little bit before I met you two thousand and three, I went on another tour to Ostria professional tour and I was heading that. When I was talking to him about he was saying, like, why don't

you come up and work out with me? And so I'm from Alabama work out. To me, I'm like, man, I live weights with you talk. You know. He was like, no, like player development, man, Listen, I had never even heard the term player development. Right. We we just didn't have either you had a dad who could do it, or you founded in the streets and you just made the best of it. And we just didn't have people who

were putting people through drills and explaining the game. And I went up that week, uh took a long train ride countryside New York uh to get the Long Island. I mean it was about four inches of snow during this time, and you know, we got an island garden. You know, we got some work in and I learned more from an individual standpoint, how to frame stuff in one week that I had my entire basketball career, right. And so I went over to Austria. Killed it. I mean,

average probably twenty nine for the tour. I mean, just had a phenomenal tour. Had offers from Lithuanian teams, from German teams, a couple of Austrian teams, um, but they fell through, and I just took it as a signment, you know what I need to bro I just need to do something else and and and I it was a weird kind of feeling because I had a big gap between corporate America when I went to Mexico to

gap in corporate America and then back to Austria. Man, that was about a ten year eight nine year journey. So I was thirty one when I went to Austria. And so one of the issues was, you know his age, you know, yeah, he's he's he's really really good. But can we get a younger player for you know, less money? That that that thing. So I came back and I said, you know, I'm gonna set up shop and run and shoot. And you remember, I don't know that all the times

you came. But it was such a jungle like meaning like a real jungle. So I started in that man, and I'm I'm telling you, bro, it was people will walk on the court while you're training. And yo, bro, you didn't give it. You didn't get permission to set up shop in our town. What's up with that? And that? And so so I had to deal with that and maintain professionalism. You know, I had the college shirts, I

had the logo. I was the first to really kind of bring a level of of of professionalism to that inside a running shoot and from there, man, it really it grew. I I mean, and I was as super athletic then I was still three six tins. So I had a a flare for the presentation. And so it really drew a lot at that time, and then the rest became reputation. And I've grown throughout the years a lot. When I look back then, you you know, you realize

how much you didn't know. And then as you move forward, she was like, man, you know what I've I've come a long way in the game. Man, I'll tell you what. Man, that's a You really really brought back a lot of memories when you mentioned running shoot in the jungle, because I remember, Man, I'm coming. I was at running Shoot. I come in the gym. You know, I'm nobody, and I won a national championship. I had done some stuff in U c L A pack ten, you know whatever.

But I walked in the building. It's like they look at me up and you like, you know, who's this light scaring curly here, you know, with all that type of stuff. So then, but the thing I love of about Basketball D League is if you got a game, it automatically endears this respect no matter where you at in the world. So it dope better. So it felt like a jugger first, But after a couple of weeks, you know, on first name basis with everybody, it's all good.

You're walking. We got, we got, we got, we got light skin, Yeah, we got, we got. Let's go, let's get it. Let's get it. And there's no greater feeling than that. The other thing I want to touch you on something you said at the outside, just talking about where you're from, where your roots are from that area Alabama, Mississippi. I remember when I was growing up. You mentioned Chris Jackson, the guys that it was a bunch of Mississippi dues.

Also m Chris Jackson, a guy named Ford. You know, you know who Ronnie Henderson is, Okay, Jess Jesse Pate, Okay, Othella that whole so that whole crew. So I played with Ronnie Henderson. We flew Ronnie Henderson out from Mississippi, came out to l a bro and he played on our team. So I kind of got And I was sixteen years old, dumb bounce and one of the coolest cats of all time. I'll tell you what the brothers

down from Alabama, Mississippi. Man, when you just a different type of person down there, saw a real cool, solid individuals, unbelievable sense of humor. But that I thought about that too, And the other thing I thought I wanted to ask you about all this. How serious in your mind was the NBA? Because because you kept it going? Man? And I know as for me, I always had the NBA. So I go to Tim Buck to to who, I go to Madagascar to who, because I say, hey, that's

the job. Let's give me an opportunity. I put on my resume and say I played somewhere last year. I didn't you know, because it's you know? So so for you? How serious was the NBA in your mind? As as a goal? My brother? It was? It was No. I really didn't have a plan. B. And for for many people, if you go to my hometown, and I think most will a test. They everybody just felt because the way I loved it, that I would fill the gaps from a talent and an i Q standpoint, and it would

just happen. And when I look back on that has so many opportunities. Man. But when you have such poor counsel and when I mean by poor counsel, that means bad counsel, means that they just people don't know right, Like like what I'm able to do now, Chris, when I can literally get on the phone and get you a job, whether it's an agent involved or not, or I can get you the right agent for your tear of player, I had no idea of that. I can't and worked out for an agent Atlanta ninety six loved me,

told me, look, you signed with me. Now I'm gonna take you on these tours. Right, I'm gonna pay you about three hundred dollars a week, blah blah blah. And I'm sitting here like a dummy listeners to somebody who doesn't play, saying, oh you can make that at McDonald's. Why are you did? But it's it's it's it's not saying it's not the same. It's not the same. It's not the same. And I said, now I gotta pay this Cardinal, I got the baby, and nobody would say,

d you trust me? You got this talent. You got the talent to play a long time right every time I walked and running, shoot right. And if anybody says it says it's not true. It's lyne. People always ask me, man, so so so where did you play last year? Where

where are you coming from? What? Right? Because that's the type of work I used to put in, And so it's it's the talent was there, but the advice, man, it is that counsel is so utterly important man for young folks to really be able to to seek expert counsel versus you know, and I'm gonna say this, I'm gonna say this, think about this from a from a you know, because of the leagues you've played in that

this is not the same as all other businesses. Right, So people will tell you, oh, they offered you four thousand, Uh, Chris, see, you're worth more than that. See, that's something you do

as a as an I T. Consultant. You can't do that in basketball because you gotta know maybe that's the market that year that year, not your value, but the market that year that year, right, And so four this year might really have been nine last year, and then next year that four might be twelve based on the economy and certain markets that the global economy a lot of things. But again, without that expert council, bro, it's

just you that's not gonna get it. And but you made a really great point about being able to direct a player to the right agent for his level, because a lot of times cast get with agents that are too big for him and then they become an afterthought. But then if you get an agent that specializes in getting guys like yourself, your particular, whatever your skill set is, whatever you get it. Maybe you undersize an undersized four.

And my guy has been able to get Cats jobs in Australia, Australia or whatever because the team likes these type of guys because that coach is on that type of system. You feel me and so and so. That to me is one of the most important parts about just today's basketball culture, Dorian, is having surrounding yourself with

the right people. You know. I bring folks on uh NBA guy x NBA guys, and that's what they tended to to kind of lean and talk about because I asked them the question of you if you can tell yourself you can talk to a sixteen year old say, I had de Reil right on and he was like, you know, I'll tell you know, he tell hisself just to listen to the right people. And just to stay locked into the right stuff. And I feel like I feel like a voice like yours, d Lee and the

way you lead by example as well. You're somebody, uh that I feel like it's it's easy to follow, it is easy, it's easy to listen to a brother like you, is easy to trust someone like yourself. Now you can't trust everybody, okay, but you can't, you know. I feel like you're somebody that you know, folks can kind of

listen to. But man, I want to talk about some high level basketball stuff because that's that's one of the major reasons I got you on this show, bro, because I love the way that your perspective and the way you think about things. So my first question for you on that level is the old school versus new school thing.

So my thing has always been about the old school was the style of play in the context, so the rules of the game, and whether or not an old school guy could would have a hard time playing today. It kind of started with Charles Oakley saying that stuff about Janice and Joannice being a role player. You're taking your honest today and putting them in the eighties. He'd be a role player. What is your opinion on comments

like that? And what is just your overwhelming thought about taking new school guys who have grown up playing without physicality, without our level of physicality, and putting them back into old school. How would they do? So? So I'm I'm gonna say this. I'm gonna say that we got two things that we have to do to frame this correctly. Uh Number One, we always talk about when a game

would be played right. So if we're talking about bringing someone back to the eighties and nineties seventies, we also have to erase YouTube, television contracts, specialized training, blah blah blah. Now let's see where they are. If we talk about moving Oscar Robinson up, now, we got to talk about specialized training, YouTube, synergy, being able to watch all of this stuff. The number of AU games now we're moving them forward. So what I know for a fact is

that true greatness is transcendent. Some greatness is situational, it's timing. But true greatness Pete Pistol, Pete would have had everything that Nash had ten years later because the style would have adapted. See when we talk about pre uh and one pre and one post and one, you can see the shift in the style of handling. Right, it was more outside of the frame of the body, where back in the day it was taught to be tight, keep it tight, you know everything, Like you watch kJ Kevin Johnson. Man,

Kevin Johnson used to be on top of it. His back was art because leaned over the ball so much. But it was like quick kids. But Kevin Johnson in space now with the style of play bro, that's a that's an all star guard with his with his with his athleticism, all start in you see what I'm saying. So that for for me, we have to talk about that. So how would they have fair? It is players that would have transcended all levels, and it is some players today that would have figured it out based on what

they're built like. So for me, Lebron is a it's a big hot topic, right. I think Lebron when we started talking goat, we we enter another way of we enter another level of critique. Right, So we can't critique him like an average player. He's in the goat conversation, So how does he stack up against other goats? Right?

So when you look at Lebron from a mental toughness standpoint, right, I don't know, would he have been much different than Karl Malone in same career, in same statistics numbers out the roof, it was was arguably one of the best of his positions, but when it got down to the to the to the nuts and bolts, he struggled in situation. So worst case scenario, Lebron is Carl Malone? Right, that that that in my opinion, right, move move MJ to this era, right, because I'm gonna keep going back and forth.

So now we we got Lebron back to there, and let's move m J up. But MJ with the same pedigree upbringing brothers whooping on him. Uh, you know all of those situations and joined in space with six four at the RAM, six six at the RAM, six eight at the RAM. I just I just think it's it's ungodly the type of numbers with the level of competitiveness right with his with if he kept the same unset, now, no one convinced him to take games off. You know, uh,

what do you call it? Not time management but management? Old management, all of those terms that you know, the man played eighty two games nine times. You know, Stockton played eighty two games like twelve times, ten like crazy. So those are those are factors to right and just the basic science. So at the end of the day, I believe what I said the other day on the post that got me lamb based in him. And it was so short because I like doing reals. You know,

the algorithms, the reels get greater views what happens. So so it is a science behind it. But I had to cut some pieces off. So when I made the National Wrestling Basketball Association coming, they were like, that would make sense. People used to wrestle more and File back in the day. I was talking about entertainment. So it's the matchups, it's you know, it's whole Coogan versus the Rock and you know, and they pounded on each other. But then after the thing, all the blood was fake,

all of it. It's more of a show now than it was. And when Adam Silver came out a few years ago, Chris and said that this is an entertainment league and we have to evaluate what helps the entertainment value. When he actually uttered throse words from his mouth, I knew that the game had officially changed. Stern never said entertainment. He continued to call it the Sports League, the Sports industry once we went to entertainment. Chris that it changed.

So old school players better players, new school players more skilled, but don't know necessarily how to deploy deploy that skill in game situation. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live. I can respect that, look, I can respect that that explanation about it. Uh, my feeling is something along the

lines of that. I didn't go as deep as you did, which was a great point about thinking about all the video that a player could watch, you know what I'm saying, if they came, if they came from this area, going back, et cetera. So, no, that's a great point. Was something I was wondering when you mentioned when you say the entertainment value. I think we saw something the other day that kind of, you know, captures that mood amongst the NBA current day NBA fan and Marcus Smart Celtics Warriors.

Marcus Smart dies for a loose ball steph Curry doesn't dive, stands up, looks at it. Smart get lollygagging, lolligagging Marcus Smart first to the floor, secures the basketball, and then you had just a ton of just backlash. Was good. Look, nobody wants Steph Curry to get hurt. Nobody wants anybody to get hurt. But also we don't want playing hard to be taken out of the game. We've seen it with the NFL where they've made some rule changes and I don't know if it's better for the league or not,

but it's just not the same NFL. You have people talking about they need to take out diving for loose balls from the game. They said that that needs to be taken out d league. What are your thoughts on that? Man? And just as far as this, it goes back into this entertainment aspect, let's preserve our stars. One more thing on that. I felt like, if that will see the Osman or somebody else diving, uh, that was Steph Curry in that position. Nobody would have cared. No one would

have cared. What are your thoughts on that? Bro? I think you first of all, I don't even have to I don't even have to say anything. You You you literally put it the way it where it was now. Hate occurs when you call stuff the way you see it, Steph was a lolly gag. Didn't make a really strong effort. Second thing, part of athleticism is understanding, uh, your your body and space. I consience when somebody is kind of about to undercut me. I left my legs. Some of

that has to do Chris. We're not playing hard. How many times did m J get hurt? How many times did a lot of our players in the in the old NBA get hurt? And they were playing way more games, so much more load. But they also knew when and where. They knew if they were gonna go for a ball, they were gonna go for it. If they weren't gonna go for it, they weren't gonna go for it. Smart was playing hard, I thought, and I love and the thing I hate is I love current, I love of

Steph with Kerr, Kerr, you ain't got no right. I know that looks good for media that you're taking up for your guy. Marcus. Smart did the right thing. Reputation wise, Marcus has gotten into some stuff. Now. They should have been talking about the kick on the other end when he tried to block that. That was something I can't defend that. If you want to talk about what that you and you almost kick the dude in the face.

That's the one we ought to be talking about. We talked about something that was just a what's a basketball play? I have an issue with that part of the game right now. The basic tenant of basketball, the basic tenant of sport, it's competition. It's competing. Three point doesn't make the game change. Uh, you know, ease of movement rules don't make the game change. Dumping into the post back in the day, that was, and what makes the game different?

What makes the game different now? It's that players don't compete. They play hard sometimes now playing hard and competing on the same thing. Russell Westbrook has always played hard, he hasn't always competed competition. So playing playing hardest energy expenditure, I hook a I hook electrode to your neck and your heart rate at your eight thousand, you know your your muscle output, force output is at twenty million. All of that is great, But was I tactically using it

to win? Was I coming up with ways strategically to beat my defender with with with the i Q and physicality versus just raw physicality. That's playing hard with no aim rhyme reason for what you're doing. So that's the difference between playing hard and competing. And that's what's missing in my opinion in today's game. And maybe I just I I hear they excuse, Chris, and you tell me what you think about this. I hear the excuse, the

excuses they play au together or whatever. Right. I got some of my boys who whoo and and they all listen to this. You that serve some time, and and you know, uh and and in some nice uh government housing for a second. Right. And when we were growing up together, these were my best friends I'm talking about. We would we we would fight together, we would go together, we walked to the gym. But guess what we would

also do. We would fight each other. So even though we were that close the game of basketball, we wanted to win against each other, probably even more than some stranger, because that's who I'm gonna hear it from the most. But now it's more like this. You know, you see Lebron dunk on on Kevin Love and they whole bromance

off of a dunk. I believe some of this. Look, look I look, we're gonna people gonna be like y'all have some old focus, But I cannot believe some of the stuff I see happen on the basketball floor nowadays in the NBA, Like that move that k Love when he ran over to bron and did the head look a headlock move. I was just like, damn, this is

really a new league. And it goes to your point, man, when someone says something is more about entertainment, that means that we should not take the competition side of things as serious, and that to me, that takes away from everything. Do you think that this generation is less competitive? I like the AE thing, but here's something else that I'm just gonna throw out there, because you know how these kids they grow up, they playing video They're playing video

games against each other all day. So it's like, if you're not competitive, are you using all your competitive juices for call of duty and for mad and so you So when you get on the court, it's like, not forget you. I don't see you when you get back to the house on the c D. This one on one it's not really what matters because we didn't we didn't have all that to hang our head. We had the one on one matchup that we were like, yeah, let's think, let's think about it. That's a beautiful point.

Think about it in its totality. So you and I we haven't really seen each other in about almost twenty years, but at eighteen years, right, and if we follow each other online or we're friends on Facebook, we feel like we've we we've been in front of each other that much. So it's a virtual world that distorts like the real world. So what you're saying is is holly plausible and probable, holly plau probable that a lot of that is in the virtual world. So, and it's also a safer world

because there's no real embarrassment. It's nobody's spectating. It's more embarrassment in a in a in a in an open warm So maybe part of that social media going viral, people stay away from moments that could put them in unfavorable light. That's why I respect those that don't mind getting dropped and hot right back up and defend. I'm always applotting that dude who didn't care about going viral

or playing a little cool defense. And I don't really want you know what I'm saying, I ain't gonna get hurt type defense, but I think a lot of that. It's some truth in that, bro I think a lot of that competitive nature is being eaten up in other ways. So what do you where do you think Curry rinks as far as all time and not just guards. I

get killed for this, I get killed for this. I think, Um, you have to delineate certain things in basketball, and any time you delineate timelines with the player, like I said, pre Ai post a right, you know, pre Jordan, post Jordan's pre magic, post magic when you talk about you know, uh, pre steph post step right. And then we we got a lot of people who, oh, man, you know other players, other teams were doing it, you know, Donnie Nelson was doing it, but it was also a frowned upon type

of play at the time. He really has revolutionized the fact that skill. It's now about for the first time in years, it's about the trump athleticism in a in an NBA. Athleticism has always trumped skilled to a certain extent, because we've seen highly skilled players that have to spend years in Europe because they weren't the prototypical They weren't

six six two guards. You remember, you remember when it was six six two guards you know it was then it was you know, Magic came and everybody's a copycat leader. Everybody was nine one. Then they got back to the small guards that the folks like Damien was was hurting, you know, hurting. Jordan's a c l S when he was crossing and hidden. So it's just it's always a copycat league. Man. But you know, I I think Steph is and this is a tough He's a top five

impact player in the league history. But it's not five players that I would say, Okay, I need a shot or I need for one game where I would pick him over. But he's top five in terms of impact

on the game. Ever you think Steph would have been And I'm gonna get back to that particular question as far as impacts, I have something about Mark Jackson I wanted to add, But do you think Steph would have been just as effective in the era of the armbar, in the era of to say, the Jordan rules where they say the Pistons had the Steph rules and you know, guys were clotheslining you, and then they had they had to do with your mental fortitude as a man. Now

it's beyond basketball. That's where the league, and and this is where I feel like it gets discounted. And I don't want to sound like we were just a bunch of brutes running around like savages trying to chop people's heads off. But there was a part to the game when we were playing where physicality was definitely something that you had to take into account because it messed with your game. Yeah, so to talk to me, talk to me about Steph in particular, let me tell you about

his particular makeup, his mentality. I think he would have first of all, his scoring. He would have been a eighteen nineteen point of game potentially a guy he still shot the ball well. Uh. I think he would have because he does have the mental fortitude. I think he would have adapted to that style of play. Uh. I think he's sneaky tough. Now I don't think. I don't know if his body would have with with with stood

the pounding. So what you would have as a guy who in that era would have shown, Okay, this kid is tough, is a can play. But he had been a Brandon Roy in an earlier era because he would only shown a couple of years of it and probably would have been on the injury would have been injury prone, just based on the way he's He's constructed right, the style that he plays because he has to get a lot. You gotta remember, at his size, he has to get a lot to do a lot to get a lot.

So so he can score thirty eight, but man, if you break it down, that meant thirty eight points. He probably came out no live maybe sixty screens over the course of a game, whether they're on ball off ball. He took probably sixty two seventy dribbles in the game. So imagine that load every night, and remember that that wasn't the style of play. Then he couldn't beat the ball that much. Even when you see Isaiah b B b B bed it wasn't as it wasn't the as

many dribbles and as much times. It's different. Man, So I think Steph I might be one of the few that thinks Steph would have been Okay, I don't. He's not dominant in that area. He's mak good. Here's what I'm gonna say about about how those guys. So as much as I say, you know they would struggle, I feel like they would struggle. But then there's also this thing and talking to a lot of basketball people, there's

also this thing about adaptation d League. You know as well as I do as a ball player, when you go into a situation that's a little bit above your pay grade, if you will, after a day or two, after a day or two, you figure it out and then you just start feeling like this is nothing and and wait a minute, everything slowed down. And I know you've had those moments. I've had those moments and it's been against NBA guys. So I feel like Steph is the kind of guy and a lot of these guys

from this era, they'll go back into that time. They'll get beat up, maybe the first week of practice, but I feel like they're gonna because they're ball players at the end of the day, and they're ball players, they're gonna adapt to just and I feel like that they man and with that skill set like a Jannis and that back then or step even Steph and let's say he cuts down the combos from the nine to the five and sometimes the three. You know, yeah, I think he might be aff I think here, but I think

you ball. I think he is the only issue, the only issue he would have in that era. One of the things that I hung my hat on and I still do. I teach you all about players, every one of them. I don't care if day five, eight, five, nine, six seven. Can all shoot over the top like we are, shoot over the top experts like y'all don't care what length in front of us. We can get the shot off. Steph can't shoot like that. Kyrie, on the other hand, has the ability. So Karie needs very little space Steph.

Steph can't go over. He has to go around. He has to get you to go back. He has to create that type of separation. Kyrie plays with people, but Carrie needs literally one or two dribbles just a little bit, and he his shot release allows him to get those shots, those shots all. So I think Carrie would, Kyrie would. Man, he's the transcendent any level, any era type. Do I think he's the most skilled player in basketball history, the most as far as the most skilled ever? You think so? No,

I'm asking you, I'm asking you. Do you think you think so? Man? I haven't seen I haven't seen a guy. So when I say skilled, art, I have to think about I like the size. So if you're six ten with the handle that. That's a high value skill if you're that size and you're able to not not only handle, another part of skill is finishing, and you're able to finish like Kyrie without hops. You see, he does not get off the ground on some of these finishes. He

has these things. You know you're right. You know you're right because I've seen I've seen him do the little a couple of times. But deally, but I'm not sure I've seen somebody finish in touch such tight spaces or get through as many as tight spaces is he's able to get through and then recover. But but I don't know. I think let me say this, I think we we are watching it now at the moment. Yeah, I really do, because because I've seen Nash do some stuff, man like

even the passes in tight areas. Yeah, that's a skill. Yeah, I doesn't have now when we talked about on the ball offensive skill. All right. The question is, and this is what I posed on this long thread about that, right, what is aesthetically pleasing doesn't mean that it's functionally better. Better is situational? Right, So I used the analogy of having a car, so you gotta you know, I'm oh, I gotta nineteen seventy one Mercedes. You got a two right,

we're heading the mobile my hometown. I take the shortest route, driving seventy miles power. You take the longest route driving fifty five. Who gets there first? Right? So it's it's not now one gets there and probably more comfort bluetooth stereo bowls. But the ultimate thing is I'm using it

today to get to a destination. So if it's a guy who can only dribble with one hand, only right and can never be forced off of his line, can go to any spot he wants, can finish every time, even if it's only on the right side, because he can get to the right anytime he wants. Is he not more? Isn't he not as equally skilled as a as a kyrie? Even though it doesn't You said, what he can't do is left? Does he need to his right? Is his left? Because he can't be stopped? So I

keep I keep thinking alone, I keep thinking along these lines. Now. The last one too, is isn't skilled? Also about proficiency with efficiency? So you and I work a job. You're the new guy. You just coming off Warden business school. You got all the technical knowledge this this, you're smarter, you know the new ways to do it. And we both start a task and I've been there so long, I know the shortcuts. I get done with the task

in twenty minutes. You do more technically sound, beautiful business theory type stuff, but it takes you ten hours to accomplish your task. Who is the most skilled now in to the coming to the public? Man, just's do way more smart, way smarter than the old head. But the old head gets it done. So I know that's a long roundabout way, but it's it's how we frame better and better better, what is better? Fox Sports Radio has

the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app. Search f s R to listen live. Now listen if we want to talk about what's the most the most beautiful games ever? Jordan's carry period, Jordan's game is the I show it to my kids and it's just like what and like no one has no one has done the finishes he's done. Where does Kobe stand in beauty of game and sheer beauty d league? Because I'm an athlete, he's a little

bit behind. Uh, m J. But m J was just a better athlete that so it's tears in this. So you've got world class, excellent, above average good. This is how good can elevate to above average in the rights around, above average can elevate to excellent in the right setting. Excellent can can venture into world class at moments. But world class every shot, every second, every cut, every jump, every lady is world class. So Kobe was an excellent athlete,

excellent and ventured. We saw some of the dunks in place. He ventured in the world class, but he didn't have world class every single jab, every single way, m J. I'm just every single thing he did was a world class athletic type. It's it's just a difference in his athleticism. And then we've ever seen facts, no question, He's let me ask you this, Does it seem like they are less traveling and carrying valuations in today's NBA that they

were in the past. And if if it does, is that a matter of guys that are actually better at handling the rock or is this a situation where the rests or have loosened up this sort of I was on the phone with one of my good friends, the NBA reff yesterday, man, and we're you know, I was joining him because, uh, you know, I was at a game the other night. A good friend of mine from France came here loves Dominique, so I introduced him to Dominique.

We got the jersey signed. It was always was a really big deal for him because he's always his favorite player. And my boy Sean was calling the game, so I'm I'm heckling yet, and so we were just laughing on the phone about no one's and I've said just a hundred times, like you go back in any of my posts and workley, I said, no one's read the rule book. I've argued with NBA guys that I've played, stop telling me where to travel. You never read the rule book?

And oh man, I played too. I said, ask my question, have you read the rule book? It doesn't matter. I know you act like you don't even want to play. Have you read the rule book? No, you have it. So what happens is people started to stretch certain things that let me, let me help you out with violations. If it's not specified in the rule book, it is not a violation, no matter how boofy it looks for it looks if it's not specified. That's why we keep

thinking black and white. It's black and white. But it's actually great, not just great, but it's that you can paint it. It's it's like it's like a law. How many times in law when you go to the courtroom you've seen a Johnny Cochrane paying a picture of black and white. Picture black and white that convinced somebody, Man the glove, don't you kill blood? Don't fit bro, ain't no way he killed yourselves. Bro Listen, we we just a soul caught up into ecstatically. It's how things look.

And I'm telling you, man, i'll say something so simple. So I did a long I'm gonna send it to you after this, you know I'm gonna send it to you. But I did a long thing on travel violations, right, and I took you back to James Naate Smith. When he first started, he had thirteen original rules. Originally you it was nine on nine on half the size of an NBA court. Now you could only take first You couldn't take a dribble, you had to pass it. But then he added one dribble and you couldn't shoot off

the one dribble. It was only to get a better passing angle. Yeah, so he realized over time these were arbitrary. This was not the ten commandments from Mount sign Out that came down. This is a dude in a in a in a class trying to come up with something that's gonna have his kids entertained during the winter months. Do you do you know why the goal is ten feet because the balcony at the y m c as

ten feet. That's where they hung the peach basket. It was no science, like based on height it should be eleven. It was no science. It was arbitrary. Right, So what I'm telling people when you start talking about being a purist in the rule, they need to do it the way the rules were set up. Now, Bro, you don't want to go back to on a half of court. We're taking wondering how bad with the game? Right? So,

folks realized. I realized that if I bounced the ball out and it's I don't I take my hands off, how does that counting towards the dribble and I catch back up to it. But what if I do the same bounce out and instead of letting it completely go, let it ride in my hand and spin. It's centripical force. Right. This is science to this. When we talk, I talk principles. So don't tell me that I'm can. I'm guiding it,

but I haven't controlled it. Right, I'm guiding, but that people can say all the same, you're you're you know, that's semantics, but it's a difference between gathered. So so think about this from a travel standpot, tuck it to the body, put both hands on it, get my hands under it, right, or pumme it. Those are the only way that a ball can't return to the floor legally. If I'm not doing any of those things, then that balls live and I can take eight thousand steps between it.

I can take eight thousand steps, let it hanged in, pick it up after the eight thousands steps and take two more. It's it's all about the way we frame it. And I was getting lamb based it back in the day. People would come over, Man, you're teaching a bunch of bs, and I mean really use that bullshit, like say it that boy, and you're teaching these kids all this stuff, and I was like, man, I just knew, like, why

why isn't this legal? Why would this be you know, my hands still on top of the ball, I can skip into a shot, So why can't I skip and then pick it up and do a jump stop and lay it up? Right? Yeah? No, absolutely, the way you've where you're talking about the game. But it's always fascinating me because it's like when you would just be like sitting here. I remember watching you just trying to work on stuff and like counting stuff out like you would be I'll be watching you over in the cut, like

what is it over there doing? But she was like, you know, you'd be counting your steps, doing your one twos, and you're real scientific about it. Man. I guess a lot of us, a lot of ball players don't read the rule book. I think I think that should be at an early age one of the first things that we give the youth is the actual rule book and test. Why wouldn't you though? Because and nobody does. But that's

the that's the wild part is nobody does. You're one of the first people that I talked to you about basketball that that talks about what's in the actual rule book. Because we feel like we have such a grasp of all basketball rules because we've played it so much and this, and that you've been through so many situations when in fact you really don't. You almost don't really know remember where you got it from. You got it when you started. You started at a lower level of Y M C,

A red ball whatever. As someone said, oh, that's a travel and you were like, okay, you never question used the authority, authority validate that you framed everything from that day for yeah, And like I was always like, so the new moves that kind of came on and gotten popular the last decade or so, from the euro to the side step you know, that little sidestep jumper everybody

does instead of the straight pull up. I used to think that those were traveling or I used to have issue with those, but that I started to understand and I looked actually looked it up. You know. I was like, oh, wait a minute, that's not you can actually do this. So I think that you're doing that is an excellent thing.

I wanted to flip back though, to steph and Clay and ask and ask you and ask you kind of a just uh, I have a theory, right, So they say Stephane Clay changed the game as far as threes because their ability to shoot knocked down the high level efficiency proficiency. I say Mark Jackson changed the game because he allowed those two to do so and not get

pulled out the game. D League, can you can you comment on and just help this next generation understand that there was a time when you couldn't shoot that stuff. Bro I was just talking to a friend said the same thing. Man, he says, it's ridiculous how far they pull. It's cool he can make the shot, but he missed

one of him here be coming out. So you gotta think about me like I averaged twenty nineteen and a half in Juico my second year, had a high game of forty three, high game in the state that year, and it was it was you just gotta be hot that night because anything else that you do that a coach doesn't like, he's gonna make. Let me let me tell I'm gonna tell you this is a this is a true story, right. We had and I was real

big about performance then man and and my gear. So my my coach rests Soul entered into a contract with a six. This was the first year they made basketball shoes and they looked not only looked like wrestling shoes, they had hard rubber bottoms. Our court. Our court was a rubber floor and juco So it was like literally it was I'm not joking. It was no grip. So I got another player of black Nikes and I warm right, and I got a white pair of pumps, uh David Robinsons,

and I wore him in the game. And I went through it, and I remember average nineteen and a half of the season, but had about eleven game stretch where I averaged only about ten points a game because he was benching me because I wore different shoes colors, right, But I had the grip, and and he never asked us like what feels good for you? But does this work?

How does this work? When I went to North Florida, we had Ky Swiss and guess what I had on about in the middle of the season, George's I had some Jay's Olympic additions when I played with the rest of the way. So again, coaches didn't really take into consideration what the player needed, wanted, what made them more confident. Because ultimately, what we're getting to, Chris, and what you're asking is is everybody And it pisces me off because how many folks Dennis Scott was shooting that deep at

joy A detect. You know, I remember he was in Cameron indoor and and de Scott was shooting from twenty six Twitter and I was like, nowhere close to the line, and and and it's imagine he did a little bit in the league. But imagine Bobby Crimmins which let him shoot that. But just imagine you just being encouraged all the time. Man, it stretches the defense. It makes them have to come out further, and you got more space, like the concept what the world to live in? You said,

But I agree. I look, I will, I will go ahead, and I will say all right, I can see Mark Jackson changed the game by allowing them to do it. Was amazing at the time when Mark Jackson came out and said that this was perhaps the greatest shooting backcourt would be a history. It's amazing to see all the people that really looked at him like he was stupid. You know they you know how they do, you know how they do how? He said it too. He didn't say no, not potentially, No, they are the best shooting

at court that this game has ever seen. And to be so spot on, but never to really receive the credit. I feel like I'm always used my platform to shout out Mark Jackson because he he's responsible for something that truly changed the generation of basketball and now we see a totally different NBA because of it. Let me let me get your advantage. You know, I know you got a lot of stuff to do today. I wanted to get one more thought from you because I love your

point of viewing perspective. What are your thoughts on just all the denigration of Lebron James despite what we would look at as as an unbelievable phenomenal career. What would you Why do you think there's just so much negativity and denigration. I think one of the main reasons, man, and and and uh is he You know, Lebron has shown front running tendencies, and I think it bothers people that you know, you stockpile you now, now hold on,

let's frame it a little different. You say, he's received a lot of criticism, but he's also received more excuses than any other start in history, Like, oh, man, his team's bad, but they used to always put up every season, they would put up a directive with all of the faces of the team that he's about to start the season with who's beating this roster? We run into the chip. By mid season, all these bums, none of them can play. He ain't got no help, right, that's front running. So

what Barkley got in trouble was about. It was like, let's match him up Kevin Love, Clay Thompson, Carrie Steph, Tristan Draymond, Lebron KD I like our chances right right right, That's what he was saying, and he got he got again land based and for saying that, and that's when Lebron came back. I ain't throw people through a play glass window and I come up drunk, and nothing to do with with with basketball, Lebron was. I mean, Berkeley

was speaking strictly basketball. So the hate he receives it is equal to the excuses that he's been allowed to receive. And I've never really seen it. Everybody else Kobe got criticized, ball hog and this and that. But for whatever reason, Lebron has positioned himself, especially with the off court stuff, he's positioned himself where he's almost where you can't criticize. He came from Akron, he didn't have this and he

donated this much and and so did Jordan. Jordan donated more money than anybody in NBA history, and this documented, you can go look it up. And so he's never gonna get it because he didn't broadcast. So now we're saying, because you didn't broadcast it, you're not good. You you didn't do enough, So you should have broadcasted if you do in it. But then if you have broadcasting it, then then you were trying to broadcast. You can't you win. So what I want Lebron to do sometimes what you

chase elude you. Lebron will go down as the single greatest career in NBA history. He had the greatest career, but he wasn't the greatest player. He wasn't even the best player. He's It's just it. It's a lot of other hip hop artists better than Tupac. But Tupac is the greatest m C now. But not because of skill, not because because of impact on the game. I don't know even in his own era, did he impacted more

than steps. We just talked about steps. So that Lebron change the way it's playing or what did he change the business of it? I think I think Lebron is effect on the game is more on the business side of the things about NBA player powerment, being able to tank, call your own shots, become a GM, build your own roster for trade force, free agency, that side of things, being involved in tons of different business vatures that you know, you're a part owner of the Aren't going Liverpool soccer

team in the Boston Red Side. Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this, Chris, last question didn't improve the game. And I want you to think about it. The the effects of squeezing the middleman out of the NBA. So the middle class of the NBA, and I'll just throw names in that to give you idea. Uh, he's a special exception, but Udonis Haslem's the Lasts Stevenson, the Matt Barns, the Isaiah Thomas. They're not the superstar, but not a rookie. So it's this middle tier that's absent now.

So what we have is a thirty seven and a thirty seven year old Chris Paul Lebron looking like they are improving, not maintaining, but improving because the i Q the level of the rest of the league, not physically but mentally emotionally. So your vet your vet is a I'm a nineteen year old on my VET twenty one. What is he gonna What is he gonna teach me about professionalism? Everybody didn't have the luxury of having a

U Dona's hasslm on the team. Right, it's different U dinas hassles one point of game is different than the rookies one point of game. He brings so much more to the table. Right. Patrick Beverley's impact is being seen on Minnesota's team. Right, that's a middle guy. But it's not a lot of those anymore because they they if I'm gonna pay for four points a game, I gotta pay my top tier forty million. So this is the

thing for the greats to get more money. It squeezed out the middle class that's up the NBA, and I don't think there it's not gonna reverse itself anytime soon. I think this is a trend that's gonna continue. I think the league is gonna all it's gonna continue to try to get younger and younger as much as they possibly can. I mean this whole thing with social media, this whole NBA social media, it's almost their one. So now it becomes so everything now is designed and strategized

with social media in mind. I mean, I mean nearly everything. And so why why wouldn't you focus on a younger generation and a younger demographic so that you can bring in younger fans and fans that aren't your typical old old head you know, sports fan. I think that person is becoming less of a priority. As far as who the NBA. That's point. Not only is the middle class out, but so it's the old the middle class. Man. I'm not said that's a different that's a different perspective, bro,

that's a different perspective, man. But I tell you, man, I pray because us the game we actually love and if I can just I don't care all the other things.

If the quality of play from an i Q standpoint, it is maintained and the competitive nature is maintained, they can kick, they can do extra point field goals as a four point play, and I wouldn't be upset about it as long as we still compete and as long as the the i Q is there, the strategy and not just this the laying everybody running to the three point line, kicking it out, lay up at the ram, kicking it out no post of we we still gotta balance the game. So Dorian, Man, I appreciate you joining

the show today. Brother, I cannot wait to have you back on again now. Man, I love it though. We gotta, we gotta, and we gotta do this bag because I love again. I love the way you think. And I ain't just I ain't hyping it up. I just love the way when I can talk without it being attacked as hate or whatever. No, let's let's let's have the discussion. It's just a way we can look at stuff differently. And you just made me five different topics look at

stuff differently. So I definitely appreciate you. Bro. Yes, their opening minds, ladies and gentlemen, Dorian Lee, but I appreciate you Bett