KJ Live - Bomani Jones

Our guest has written on sports, music and culture for politics for the past fifteen years and continues to entertain sports lovers with exceptional television, podcast and radio programming on ESPN and most recently, he was He is joining the cast of Back on the Record with the legendary Bob This on HBO. Ladies and gentlemen, let's welcome into the show. Bo. Matti Jones is in the building. Bow. What's good dude, man? I'm good man. How about you, man, I'm wonderful man.

I'm just out here in l A is a little overcast, my man. But we're hoping this burns off and we can make a day out of it. They are only gonna lose your minds over seeing plows that don't happen over there very much. I know you have a little history out here too, so we'll get into that a little bit. But yeah, man, it's you know, l A.

Weather is a trip bro. But speaking on stuff that I kind of wanted to touch on with you, man, a lot of what you do right You're you're the kind of the contemporary pop culture commentator, the sports pop culture commentators, so we can always get your take on anything that's happening. You come up these really thoughtful, intelligent sort of takes. Man, You're always getting into the thick of it. But I don't think a lot of folks

know your background. So one of the things I kind of wanted to do because I've always been fascinated with your background ever since I first met you. I just kind of wanted to touch on a little bit about where you're from, how you grew up, your edguc asial background, man, some of your accolades, and then sort of how you transitioned into sports media. Yeah. No, Um, I was born in Atlanta, UM, and we moved to Houston when I

was right before I turned seven years old. We stayed there until I graduated high schools like right before I turned uh seventeen, and I went back to Atlanta with college at Clark Atlanta University. My parents were both professors. And the thing about Clark that was interesting was at the time my father was working there and you know people as well. I was going to school and one thing I knew I wasn't gon do was to go

to school where my dad worked. That just didn't seem to make any sense whatsoever, right, Like, I know, I wasn't going to school anywhere near home, and then like everything was moving back towards there for the family. I was like, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Um. And then my brother, who's thirteen years old than me, explained that ain't worried about what you're doing. Okay, cool, right,

And so I made a trip down there. So he got rather Atlanta like I got to college in ninety seven, but I took a visit there at ninety six, so like this isn't like yeah, like this is Atlanta on the come up, right, this is right after the Olympics and all of that. And I got there and I was like, oh, there's no question where I'm going to school. Right here, and that is exactly what I did. And so I was there from one and always say that

like being in Atlanta at that time. Now it's all kind of outside and kind of growing itself, and there's the Rezilion things going on, but not a lot of room for things to breed. This was while all of that was building, and it still felt like reasonable in a sense. It was like people were coming from everywhere to little did they know, contribute to something that was then regional and them would like suddenly become kind of like the pulse now of Black Coast in America is

really coming out of Atlanta. Um. And so I started writing about music the summer after my junior year of college, and so he said, oh no, this is now. It's like two thousand, two thousand two kids when I got there, and that like, again, this was the best place to be because so many people like I went to college. We were trying to get this thing going, trying to get this website off the ground, trying to get this you know, producial company, because Atlanta was the place to be.

If that's who you were, you know, that's what you were about, you were gonna know somebody, right, And so it's people like you just you know, you could always tell who was front. And like, this is when cell phones were not the most common thing in the world. You always have somebody walking down to yard act like they're being important talking. And then as I started writing and getting in it, I started doing things and realizing, oh no, this person actually is like making some things happen,

actually is working on something. And so there was like a real spirit of collaboration around a lot of that stuff because so many people would just do you know, we're trying to play the same game, but not in a way that was that necessitated, like competition between people, Like they didn't make a whole lot of sense for

folks at that point. So I did that. I graduated from college, and I was like, the one thing I know I'm not gonna do is go to grad school, which meant, of course, in the fall of Able one, I was in grad school. I went to Claremont Graduate University in Clarmont, California. What made so you You was off of it at first, but then you decided to come to Calign. Now why did you decide to make

the move to grad school? Because I wasn't doing anything else and these people called me, and I'll never forget they called me, like in August, and they were trying to talk to me about this fellowship that they had and I was like, man, I guess, like, I really don't want to do this. I really thought I was under a grave misunderstanding of how much money you could make by writing. Like I thought that I was going to be able to sustain in a livelihood as a

freelance writer. And that was man, I was dumb, Like that was that like like that was just And I remember the moment that I realized it was dumb, and I realized that it was dumb. I guess it had to be around April because it was tax time and I was talking to a dude that I met, you know, internet met, you know, who was a freelance writer. And he told me he was so excited because he was doing his taxes and he realized that he had made ten thousand dollars freelancing that year. And I was like,

excuse me, what, like the whole year, the whole year. Yeah, I had no idea that these people that were right at the same site as we had day jobs, Like, I didn't realize this. I was like, oh no, this is this is definitely a problem. And so I had met up with this dude from Baltimore who was trying to start a magazine and he had sold me some promises about, you know, how much work I could get

and all that stuff. So one weekend, my buddies were going up to d C because one of those from a d C and so rolled up there with him. I think I brought a hundred dollars from my parents because I was gonna meet this dude and hammerad this deal and get this figured out. And that dude stood me up like I never heard from the while I was there, and I was just ghost like. I think I talked to him again later, but it was kind

of a wrap on that. And I remember I was at my buddies mom's house and I was just my head was back. I was so stressed out. In the phone rang and it was the folks that amat and they were like, yeah, so about this fellowship. I was like, okay, like now I'm listening right, like now I gotta now. I got a little more of an into it. And then I remember I hit the lady on email. No, maybe in that conversation I said, Okay, so this is for February. I mean for January, right, She's like, oh no, no,

that's for this fall. So we're now in the middle of August and she's like, it's for this fall, and I want to talk to the parents. And you know, we made it work. I got out there. I've never been to California before. I didn't know anybody in California. This wasn't the plan. And and and this is a very important detail. I had a misunderstanding of the spatial geography of southern California. So I thought that I was going to l A. I thought I was going to

people Los Angeles. Clairemont is a little different than that. Right now, I caught a flight into Ontario, a very convenient and charming airport. Just absolutely but it became very clear to me very quickly that it was not Los Angeles, no, sir, I mean, was there an adjustment process being from the south, or did you just fit in fine because it's the college atmosphere. It was an adjustment. It wasn't really so

much about being from the south. It wasn't that. The adjustment for me is that I spent four years in Southwest Atlanta, going to a black college, and like, if you're from like a place that has black colleges but their state schools, you ain't got a whole lot of white people there. But you got white people there right, Like you got white folks taking classes that night when they get off work. You've got people who live around the area because they can still live with their parents,

you know, like they're still kind of there. When you go to like a private black college, which Clark was, white folks ain't going paying no sixteen thousand dollars to come hang out with us like that, Like that wasn't that that was not the property location. No, And so we had the blackest part of town at a school

as black as you could possibly imagine. And I get to Claremont and I remember I got there for orientation and there was like one black person there, like there was no I was like a black person nowhere to be found. And I'm just walking around and I see the sign for the Office of Black Student Affairs. Because I don't know nothing about how white colleges get down and all of them got some office for the black

people to go hide at. You know, when things get a little bit rough to put all programs for you and stuff, and I just remember I walked in there and they were like, yeah. I was like, I just feel like I need to be here right now. I did not know what was going at all, and so I had to like it wasn't full on adulthood, because my parents are still helped me out, you know, a lot, but this wasn't like this was a much more growing up endeva than anything that I had done before. And

that was I think a big part of it. And graduate schools a lot harder than undergrad It's a lot more work than undergrad is. And I had been used to just kind of coasting and I could goes through their relatively, but yeah, no, it was it. It It was definitely a cultural difference. I wouldn't say shock, but it was definitely a difference. A quick thought on HBCUs. I have my younger brother, Mariah, graduated from Tuskegee. He actually got his masters in like occupational therapy, so he

does stuff. And when I talked to him about his experience there, uh, he said it was the greatest thing that's ever happened to him in his life, just because of the way he felt and the way you know, people embraced him, and he felt like everybody cared about

his personal success. When you see all these different sort of now new age kind of campaigns to highlight HBCUs, Chris Paul's coming out with a movie, jay Z and Beyonce just launched something, um that is you know, I forgot what it is, but a scholarship or something where

they're giving directing funds to HBCUs. Do you feel like, um, this is something that's a completely genuine act or is it something that you feel that I almost say that you feel, But for me, it sort of feels like this is good timing and so people are jumping on it. They weren't really on it before, they're kind of getting on it now because of the timing. What's your take

on that boat? I think it's genuine, and I also think it's good timing, right Like, I think that a lot of things happen in the last twelve to eighteen months that, you know, made people aware and think about things and you know that thing you've been meaning to do but you just ain't got around to yet, you know. I think that for a lot of these people, it is entirely possible that this is what it was, and

they pushed you to the top of the stack. The only thing I questioned about it, and it's not with the intentions of the people who are doing it, is I don't feel like it's making the right point about HBCUs, And I don't know if a lot of these campaigns can really do it, because I think it's a real common sense thing that gets lost in these discussions, because like when I turn on TV and I see like on First Take, for example, where they'll go to a

black college and they have somebody doing a step show and the band will be out there and they're selling the idea of the culture. And don't get me wrong, that's dope, right, but um, that's not the reason to do it. It's not for the aesthetic. The biggest thing that I think that I got out of going to an HBCU two things. Number One, I make the argument that HBCUs are actually the most diverse four year college environments that you'll find, and it's because there is a

diversity of class and experience. Because racist fiction, right, like race is just something that somebody made up in large park, and so the delice like why are all these people here, what's the common thing they have between them. They're all black, Okay, that doesn't really mean that much in terms of what

they actually have in common. And so once you go down the level below that, that's where you start finding like, oh man, so we've got people from this you know, whose mama does this for a level with mama does that for a living um, And all those people are interacting with each other on a regular basis because they're like, for example, you want to come down and you can go to a school that is disproportionately bourgeois. Yes, but you go to most HBCU schools and you're a bougie kid.

Hey man, there ain't enough of y'all to like really parse yourselves out from everybody else, Like all five of y'all gonna be doing that, you know what I mean. Like, it's just it's not enough people for you to be able to pull that kind of thing off. And so I met more kinds of people for more places in college. Then I think that most people who go to a predominant white school would like, you know, there's the international element I think that comes in when you go to

a predominantly white school. You know, just as people know those brands and they go or whatever. But in terms of your actual interaction, especially if you are a black person, the black poles wind of going to them schools and then just still hanging out with a bunch of black people. Just like, what's going to going to school with all these white posts if you ain't gonna kick it with them? Right like, like like this is this is what you

signed up for. But I think that I met a broader range of people than most people do in college by going to a black school. The other thing is like I'm not even talking about microaggressions and all that stuff that you know people who go to white school's

talk about. And I mean I went to you know, to very white school, well one very in the Carolina, which is an interesting thing in itself, and Claremont's wiggy white um, and I never like, maybe I just don't notice these things, but you know, the microaggression and everybody getting on you and all that stuff. Now, I didn't notice that. What I did notice, though, was how surprised people would be when they found out I was actually kind of smart, right, Like that was the biggest difference there.

And so at the black school, there's a level of skepticism that you don't have to deal with from people. Right, there are people who are more likely as a if you are a black person, to believe in what you're capable of, because white FLEs got so much hair trash about black people that they don't even necessarily realize that

they have even the best intention. Some of the best people like, they grew up in this same thing that we did, right, Like all this stuff that we complain about, they grew up with it and ain't really done a whole lot of questioning of it for the most part, and so they don't know that they're thinking about that. So like with me, the way people who I worked with in college, you know, professors and the likes, leaned

in on my capabilities. I didn't find that at most of the white educational environments that I was in that people did that the same way. And that's what I think is the biggest thing that has a black student that you are going to get out of the black college. If you are a talented person to create a person to think or whatever is, those people working with you have to jump over far fewer hoops and get a lot less stuff out of the way before they can

see what you're capable of staying on. Uh, that's that's that's interesting, And that's the perspective that I really haven't heard to explain like that as far as the diversity. But you can't get on TV and say that stuff, you know what I'm saying, like when they're trying to get out here and make the pitch. So what's the issue? A man? Wife? Fols don't be thinking we can do stuff, you know, like they're not Chris Paul. Can't get on TV and be like that. That's not gonna work. That's

not gonna work. They never gonna give us nobody to help do this if we start acting like that in front of people, come on, man, No exactly, but standing college man, the game, the college game has changed a lot. Basketball sports game has changed a lot since we were in school and since our era. Just what is your take on things like conference realignment, the n i L and and sort of the what I think is the

declining popularity of college basketball. I feel like college basketball is at one of its lowest points as far as popularity. Do you agree with this assessment and what are your thoughts? Yeah?

Absolutely do. And it's interesting for me because you know, when I started doing radio is doing it in North Carolina, you know, and living there and being immersed in the place where the sports market is college sports, you know, but it's also kind of exposed, not really exposed, but it just made me kind of think about it in a way that like, I wasn't making all the money in the world, but I was making money to sit up on the radio and talk about what college kids

were doing, right, and I was, and I would and I would go through some dilemmas really on like how exactly to present it, because like you, you know, you have to be fair, you have to be honest, you

have to be somewhat critical. But these are also kids, and they're not making no money, you know, Like I do not want my job to be out here and people being like, man, look at listen to the way that he picked on this twenty year old, you know, Like I didn't want that, but it let me know these are pro sports, Like we are talking about this like it's pro sports, and all of it is professionalized

and the money has just gotten so big. And I don't bring that up, you know, to like speak to the horrors or evils to capitalism, but just to talk about the incentives for players where the chances of making a gazillion dollars are just so much higher than they ever were, and so people are going all in on all these dreams real early, Like that's the big thing about it. Got a home boy. His son was one of the top ten nine year olds in the state

of Georgia at basketball. How was that a list? Right? Yeah, like, how is somebody compiling this? But we are identifying athletes so young and so I remember somebody told me this, and I never really thought about it this way, and we were talking about Ty Lawson at the time, and

I'll never forget. I was there when Lawson declared for the draft press conference in Chapel Hill, and somebody asked the perfunctory question of whether he and Wayne Ellington were going to come back and finish their degrees and laws and laughed like he didn't laugh in the behind his face, but his immediate reaction was a laugh because this was

not what he was here for. And I remember the guy was talking to he was pretty good high school basketball player at the time, and he was like, as soon as somebody changes schools for basketball, it's officially a job. Like once you once that happens, this becomes a professional endeavor. And so people are just looking up. They're not even thinking about going to college, like that's just not the ideas. And you also have a chance to get an education.

Now they ain't even talk no more like like somebody might convince you of it after you get there. So the highest level dudes are just if they're going to college, they're getting there, they're immediately playing, they're getting out. They ain't really got no investment in what the program is or what is going to be except like cal figured out a way to build something where guys cared about where the place was. But they just getting in and

they're getting out. And so where twenty five years ago, even though some guys were leaving early, But twenty five years ago, those were the best basketball players under twenty two in the world. Basically who are playing college basketball now? It's like are just a random mix of players and it's almost impossible to like not just put together a good team, but a team that you kind of grow up with and part of the charm of ledge basketball.

And I think even if you're somebody like me who thinks the guy should get paid and understand all that, and so forth and so long. There is something to be said for watching somebody and meeting them at eighteen and then letting them go at twenty two and you know, just kind of seeing what the changes are and like what it's like when there's a freshman who comes in

it can really ball. But the twenty two year olds is still the ones who are starting, you know, and like figuring out how all that gets integrated in and all that's gone, Like that's just not what the game is anymore. And so if you are a casual fan or even like a die hard, really what's there for you to latch onto? The most talented players of the age range are not there. It's hard to get like a real ciniment attachment to what's going on with it.

It's I mean, they messed up so long ago, not realizing what this money game was, and now I don't feel like and you would probably notice better than me. I just don't feel like these kids grow up even dreaming of playing college basketball, like I can't wait till I, you know, get old enough and I'm gonna play at Caroltta. I'm gonna play at U c l A. I don't feel like they do that anymore. No, it's sort of

for me. It feels like the kids are already fast forwarding and skipping to you know, dreams of the league, and so that's their goal from the start, and then they don't even really care or care to know about college basketball in the history. So there's a little bit of a disconnect. But with all these new leagues now over time, elite um, there's been the g League ignite um you know there, which gives elite level high school basketball players an opportunity to earn six figures a year

playing basketball. I wanted to get your ticket somebody who has multiple degrees and been through all every you know, part of the college experience possible except I guess you almost finished the doctor too, but you're pretty much you've been pretty much done at all. BO. Do you think it's important for these guys to go to college for a year to get that experience of college, to socialize, you know, that socialization of college or whatever we want

to call it. You think it's important for these basketball players to do that or do they need to go short of this tennis and golf individualized sport route where we're pros at fifteen and sixteen and that's all we do. I think it would be helpful to do that college route if they actually like get to be in college, right, like it really feels like you're in college, then they should.

If it's just like just to do it, just to say it, I think the real value and that honestly is an incubation, just the idea that eighteen is wild young and the mature, Like it's probably a good idea to do just do a little growing up, you know, like like it's it's it's helpful. Like I look at like two examples that jump to mind, and Michael Beasley into Marcus Cousins, where they could have just stood to do a little growing up before they got out there,

you know. And Michael Beasley who was begging to stay in school. He was doing interviews like why do I have to go do all this stuff? Like I if you don't have any money, a hundred thousand dollars, two h thousand dollars, whatever it is, it's a lot of

money if you don't have any money. But for a lot of these guys that were talking about in the end, that money ain't gonna behind up being nothing to them, And I think that the value of taking a little time and growing up and not rushing all this stuff, in the end, it's probably worth more than a couple

hundred thousand dollars. However, I recognize it as easy for me to say that as a person with a couple hundred thousand dollars, right, Like, I don't want to pretend as though I don't recognize as a measure of privilege in the statement. But I think for like developing and becoming a happier person, because in the end, happy is we'll be going for right and happy. Happy is a hard thing to find. And I don't think being a professional basketball player fifteen years old is gonna make you happy.

I just don't think so. The last thing on on on College and these guys skipping, I mean, there was you know, Kwamie Brown has been kind of he started off hot. It's kind of, you know, got locked into something now that he's doing on YouTube, which you know,

I don't really have an opinion about. What are your thoughts when you see this type of situation unfolded in front of everybody, and you're we're kind of outsiders watching you watch somebody kind of just go on and on about being picked on and you know, just I just wanted to get your thoughts some media, somebody that's in the media on how you view just the whole Kwamie Brown situation. Well, hey, I'll be careful, man. He finds everything. Uh, and that dude is the troll of all trolls. Bro.

You know, he's crazy that he Yeah, he finds everything. Um. You know the thing with him, and I think I do think one point that he makes that is important is that we don't know him, right, And so I tried. I want to be careful as I can a psycho analysis and somebody like him, because it's fair. I don't really know the dude. But what I do know is we were really hard on him just because he was the number one pick in the draft. Like that's honestly

his sin. If he were the number six pick in the draft, we wouldn't have had none of that stuff to say. And if you go back and look at that draft, with the exception being maybe Tyson Chandler, who ever went number one in that draft, we were going to ridicule forever. It was not a good draft. It did, and even Tyson, when you think about it. You know, you being in California, you remember what the legend of

Tyson Chandler was when he was in high school. If he had been the number one pick and gone and played with Mike, we had just spent all our time talking about how Tyson Chandler came school, it wouldn't have mattered how good. And it took him a while to get it together too. We gotta remember that part. Like he didn't just walk in and shut down the lane. Like even like healthy Greg Oden before he got hurt

as a young player, was more impactful than Tyson Chandler. Right, We would have killed Tyson Chandler if he wound up in that same situation. And so then for all these years that come after the fact, Kwamie Brown's name is listed as all time draft bus data DA and all of this stuff, I would understand if somebody just got

tired of that, you know. And I think that's one thing working in the media that I don't think that people we don't give enough credence to about the people that we covered, which is we don't have people in our faces asking us these questions all the time. We don't have people like we we are not. Most of us are not as good at our jobs as the people we cover are at their jobs, and nobody ridicules us in the ways that these guys deal with it. And who knows what else goes on in their lives

and everything else, you know. So when I see a cat like him, I'm like, yeah, I can see how this happens, you know. Now he is a fascinating combination of a whole bunch of stuff that's going on. Like I actually think it's really interested. Um, I haven't gonna checked him out in a while, but it's it's a it's a lot going on over there. Yeah, very interesting. He's still on the trades and coding for the for

the youth. I mean, that's been kind of his thing, his theme, you know, regardless of whatever mud he's thrown or you know, stuff he's talked, he's always trying to, you know, stay true to that. I guess we'll see kind of, you know, what happens out of that. But but talking more about like today's athlete, right when you look at Kevin Love and and and Simone bios and and Naomial Sokka, three athletes that have been really outspoken

and open about mental health challenges. Now. When I was coming up, both, you know, you couldn't really be talking about that publicly people. You know, that was back in the day where you would get ostracized, bagged on, and you know people you know, you get a stigma about you. But so you would have to suffer and hold things in and kind of, you know, just sort of cope

on your own. With you With more athletes coming out now, I wanted to get your opinion on how young do you think it's important to start providing mental health resources to athletes? How young of an age do you think we should start addressing situations in athletes. I'll be honest with you. Um, when I was twelve thirteen, somewhere in there, um, my mother suggested that I go see a therapist. And it wasn't like I was like in some supremely depressed

place or anything like that. And I think a lot of it was just the function of like being that age.

But I was also like I was in a unique sort of circumstance because I had skipped a grade and then my birthday is in late August, so like the people I like, the people in my grade in some cases are literally two years older than me, you know, and so they growing I'm not you know, all these different things that are going on, and it was just my I was living a life that was unique relative to my peers and not really something where I had people I could relate to or even really a circumstance

in a lot of ways that like my parents could relate to or anything, you know, um, and so the uniqueness of that situation, you know, mom thought was a good idea and it's one of the best things that ever happened, right, It's one of the best things for me, And like I felt down the line, like left me grounded with a certain confidence and the ability to kind of be forgiving of myself when I make mistakes and the likes and you know, all those kinds of things.

And so if I think it was a good idea for me at that age because my situation was particularly unique, we talked about people whose situations are probably more unique than mine where and mind didn't come with any pressures you know that would coming with this, you know, because the big level of this also what a lot of these kids, you know and these athletics, is they know it man, their parents trying to get this money too,

you know, like this could like I don't obviously. For example, I think I was in this book only the Strong survived of bio of iruson and made the point that his mama thought the guy said out and orison into her life to save her from poverty. Can you imagine the pressure that comes from somebody you know, thinking that

and the other people like that? Yeah, like people people that probably folks probably go like see their cars and look at their parents cars, look at their parents houses and think, oh, y'all living good, and their parents still looking at you like okay, but we could be living great, you know, like imagine like you know, so imagine all

that stuff. And so I really think, honestly, for just about anybody, but especially for them, this is something you need to start learning how to deal with early as you're doing it, as opposed to like somebody like Osaka who suddenly got a lot more famous than I think she ever thought was going to be possible, and fame, by the way, the most overrated thing in the world.

And now you're in it, and now so many people to tie to you and everything else, and you're trying to figure out how to deal with it like all at the same time with folks. No, you should probably get started on this like most people should as soon as possible. Yeah, and don't wait until there's you know, an inciting incident or something like that. Kind of be proactive much like you bo. I started seeing the therapist when I was twelve and thirteen years old. I had

a younger brother that drowned in the pool accident. Man. I needed I needed some coping mechanisms. I was in a bad place, depressed, I was low, and I do think it was life changing. The ability to talk to somebody about what you're going through that doesn't judge you. I think it's one of the most important things that we have today because a lot of times, as people man anybody right, we don't want to communicate, we don't want to talk about stuff, get stuff off our chest.

So that's what it served for me. And and even in college both um, you know, I had situation where I got suspended for you know, undisclosed reasons, but you know, everybody kind of knew what it was. I had to go through, you know, uh, alcoholics anonymous. I had to do see a counselor three times a week. A guy by the name of Dr William Parrhand, who, by the way, is the head of the NBA Players Association Sports Psychiatric part right now. But so I had to do that, man,

I tell you what. That it changed my life. It changed the trajectory of my basketball career and my life. Man. When you when you get equipped with you know, some ways to cope. Brother, that stuff is you know, that stuff is lifelong and it's lasting, you know what I'm saying. And you were Marcus Johnson's son, like you know, and like that's the thing. And I think that's something I imagine like some of these athletes, they like, I'm somebody's son.

It wouldn't mean nothing to most of the people who would listen them in the world that I trafficked in. I was somebody's son. That's a pressure that a lot of people have in their lives. By the way, sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes that's a bad thing. But you know, right, but like you know, but like, but these are just the pressures of being a regular person. Right. We go get our bodies checked out like once a year.

You know, we all can stand a little maintenance. I think the problem the stigma, which I think is largely gone at this point. But I think that the idea of the stigma comes from the error that people make, which is you need to go look into those things because you've got something wrong. Na, na, no, no, no, These are little things, right, These are tune up. This is tune up type stuff. Right. We're not talking about getting you a kid, right, We're not talking about rebuilding

the engine block buying large for most people. We're just talking about some little tweaks. Because those little tweaks they get out of control, they get out of and now you can ye now, yeah, exactly both. Do you ever think that cannabis in the NBA or in professional sports will be an accepted way to address like just a widely universally accepted way to address different elements mental anxiety or whatever or whatever. Do you think it will ever be that way or there always be sort of that

cheachen chung stigma associated with athletes and cannada smoking cannabis. Now, I think it's widely accepted now, they just don't want to talk about it. Like. The thing that people always have to remember with weed in the NBA is that they did not prohibit it until nineteen nine, Right, like this was during that lockout, the ultimate culture lockout. Right, we got we gotta shut down this buddy, We gotta get these dudes in a lot. They are out here wildly right, So just to get a little bit of

that control back, they put in the Marriwater prohibition. But again nineteen nobody really cared about this before that happened. And so what I think happened with legalization. I remember when they legalized in Colorado. UM I used to read a section of the paper up there. They had a section called the Cannabis where they were just talking about

all the things that he changed. It was really interesting stuff like just you know, like like of course they had like reviews of food type stuff, reviews of strains and everything, but it was also just a lot of like business type stuff. And so the local symphony was having Cannabis Night. But it makes sense. You're gonna get really high and then you go to a concerts good time.

But those are the people who were going there. And so what I think happened is as these more for lack of a better term, like sophisticated types started engaging these things and presented these sorts of activities and started using words like cannabis and everything to kind of move away from, you know, the previous connotations of the way that people talked about this stuff. I just don't think

that's something that anybody really cares about anymore. Like if you get caught, like some got caught on a possession charge, I don't think like the way we still have people telling jokes about James Winston and the crab legs, that's any really gonna happened with you if you get cast smoking weed At this point, you know what I think about the New York City has said it's the wildest thing now walking through New York. You can smoke weed in New York Now any place you can smoke a

cigarette word any place. Nobody's like trip nothing the wall, that's the wall. That's what I'm saying. Like the days of ducking off in the alley has passed. I was walking down the street on Sunday. I saw four girls in the brunch clothes just standing on the corner placing a blunt, and I'm like, I know what that used to look like. It used to look like, let's go take a walk. And then they're over there in the circle and somebody like heck, keep popping up like that.

Ain't was going on anymore, you know, And so once once in the bubble, I thought it was a very self aware thing of Adam Silver to look at the bubble and be like all right, yeah, like right, like like y'all because because I feel very confident to that somebody in the process was like so uh me and the fellas was talking, and uh I just think that, you know, given the circumstances in the situations, and you know, you say you care about how we feel, it would

be really helpful for us, you know what I'm saying if we could just you know, you know, you know, like like come allay, they'll do it like that, you know for sure? What do you what do you think about the job though that Adam Silver has done Since taking over as Commissioner of the NBA, He's had you know, a little tumultuous kind of uh well issues to deal with. So what do you think? I think that overall he

has done a good job. I think that being the Commissioner of the NBA is a difficult job, and I think succeeding David Stern is a lot to ask um out of any um. I think that he's got a league that is probably about maxed out on how much money it can make domestically, which means that it is look to make this money in other countries that have lots of people, and that then also means that they

also have some questionable governments. One could say, as you try to figure and balance, you know, those sorts of things out. But one thing I do think about the NBA at this point, even with the Black Lives Matter stuff and how it win the bubble and everything else, I feel like when discussing the n B a race is less at the forefront then it has ever been

in the times that we talked about it. Like we don't have discussions now about how the league is too black, which discussions all the way through the twentieth century, right like they have kind of gotten the league past that point. I was opposed to the dress code and everything else when they did that stuff, but I do have to say it's kind of effective, Like we had reached a point with the public really disliked NBA players. Now they don't write like, do I think it's silly that something

like that would help bring about that change? Yes? Can I deny that it happened. No, I can't like, you know these things, you know, these things have gone down, and so they got a league where I think people generally like the players. And I think, though, what he's going to have to do is figure out how to get people back to caring about the basketball. And I think that people care less about the actual basketball than they have before. And so the social media arguments people

enjoy having and they're kind of cool to do. But the basketball, and I think they probably do for some rules changes to encourage attacking the basket more and get away from all these three point shooting and everything. But I still love the NBA, and I think someone is a good dude has done a good job. I agree. I love where the NBA is. I'm not one of these dudes that salty about you know, the rules and

how these guys have it easier. I do acknowledge that they definitely have some advantages and they have love in this league that I would have never thought i'd seen in the NBA. I never thought i'd seen somebody making fifty million, you know for the contract, you know these deals. He's forty eight. I've seen the forty eight, and I'm like godly. But but all that to be said, Um, obviously on the highest levels the NBA is is we focus.

It seems like we focus, Like you just said, it's not about the basketball, it's about sort of the soap opera, sort of the drama. Which kind of brings me to this point about Rich Paul. Do you do you feel like like this Lebron Rich Paul situation, you feel like that's too much power for Lebron to have because he's able to kind of influence a lot due to his

relationship with Rich, right, yeah, I mean or not really. Yeah, but the discussions of them are so tricky, just because it was all the whispers that always exist about how exactly this came to be. Okay, this is my thing about Rich as it relates to Lebron. If David Falk represented Lebron and David Falk had a bunch of David Falk clients on the Lakers, we would just be like, you do what you want when your popp it. That's what that that that that would be the way we

talked about it. Now. I also get to feel like, and I don't know this completely, but I get the feeling that Rich Paul is willing to represents the dudes that David falk would even give his phone number two, right like like like Mark Keith Morris, David Fonk has no time from Mark Keith Morris's phone calls, right Like, that's I think one of the most interesting things there. Rich Paul has a client base that allows him to bring role players onto the Lakers, Right, he still got

those guys. Um, But yeah, if somebody else, nobody would really have like a giant issue with what it is. They're just a lot of people that feel like Rich Paul is not supposed to be in the position there. Rich Paul is it hard? Stop? That's what it is. And what it comes down to to me with agency is that ain't a job you learn how to do in school. You got game or you don't, right, like people who understand leverage. That's a real innate sort of thing.

Like I could eat up on all that stuff. I got degrees in economics, I know all the game theory, I know all of that. But when it comes to the stomach the gun, you know, because Rich Paul will stare you down. We've seen that happen with a lot of contracts, right, Like, it's not like people just bow and capitulate to whatever Rich Paul wants. Remember how Lord Tristan Thompson had to wait on that money. How long are you lets so had to wait on that money,

all of that stuff. The dude's actually just good at his job. And so again I don't think he has any more power. David Falk had more power to Rich Paul. When David falks out here representing Michael Jordan and Patrick Ewing and we can go, you know, up and down the list of all the guys that he had, plus all the college coaches who are walking their guys up. That was a dude that had some real power, right Rich Paul is I think just really just a really

interesting story. Yeah, fascinating story. Who who do you think it's gonna be the face of the NBA when the Lebron retires if he can get his team anywhere in the playoffs, My guests is a Luca people want it man.

And he is a fascinating case to me in terms of the way that like he is received, because you correct me if I'm wrong here, but I can't think of a white dude who immediately shook off skepticism from the African American voting block as quickly as Luca Dodgad you think Larry Bird could we say Bird was so positioned against magic that you have some haters, right, they just that just they like like they don't they don't want to admit it now, like they stopped right Like

it's like how suddenly every white person you do love Bahammad Ali. You're like, yeah, that's not possible too. Then they just had to come back around to be like, nah man, Larry Bird was. I think what happened was you got more access to black players of the day being like no man, he was in and then it was just like right now, we gotta come around. And so with Luca, he's fun um for NBA purposes. He's white and you know that matters, man, Whether people want

to acknowledge it or not, that matters um. And he's really really really good, Like if they can take it anywhere, he'll be that guy because he's so much fun to watch when he's rolling, Like you're not gonna like Tim Duncan was never gonna be the face of the NBA because that this wasn't no fun to watch. Luca is a party when it comes down to play his game, man,

his game. But you know what, you know what I want to ask you about this as somebody who again played in a different time than now, what Luca kind of has that I think has been lost a little bit over time in terms of like now the game is more spaced, it's more open, you know, it's more up and down. It's more about those shots. But a big part of the charm of basketball. It's like a dude like, mellow, m you are trying to guard me. I'm right here, I got the ball in triple threat.

Nobody never been better that I've ever seen that, Like waiting to decide when to dribble the mellow, you know what I mean. But just that he a game, you know what I'm saying, Like like it's a it's a it's I can't explain it any other way, Like when you watch like Kevin mchhale, will never be able to explain to these young dudes how cold Kevin McHale was.

But Kevin maal right, but the game that he had, this game, the current NBA that that that style, there's no room for it, but there's an artistry to it right up and under this stuff like that like there's a charm to that kind of stuff, and you don't see a lot of guys that have that kind of game and Luca kind of does, right, Like obviously I mentioned a lot of post players, but I think you understand what I mean, Like just kind of going on

one little stuff right, Well, he hasn't impeccable footwork, He has impeccable footwork, and then the handle and just he's got big shot making, just huge canes. Man, he will take the big shot, he don't care, and he will also knock down that shot off a crazy ass move. That's one of my favorite things to watch is daunch

it when he's in his freaking bag. Man. One more thing on the NBA, as I do with everybody that we interview, Man, I just wanted to get maybe you know, your most just memorable story about Kobe Bryant, my Kobe story, and see it was it was an interesting thing for me when Kobe died because I was not a fan, right, and so you know, you're in this thing and you don't never want to seem like the fake dude out here, right, So it's like, you know, how do you do this?

And I realized about Kobe, that I grew up with Kobe Bryant in a way I hadn't thought about, like Kobe graduating from high school the year before I did. So I have been aware of Kobe Bryant at some

form of fashion my whole life. And I always said that I realized, like after this went that I was eighteen years old looking at twenty year old Kobe Bryant and evaluating him like he should have been so fully for himed adult, because my stupid eighteen year old ass thought that I was some kind of fully formed adult, right like you know. And so then it's time went on, Like I looked back at some of it and it was just like, oh ya, I was hating right right, Like I just that that was I was. I was,

I was, I was hating. It was a thing. But what I'll always remember is in two thousand five, that's when I really kind of started getting into the sports writing thing. And one thing about ESPN is it ain't a place to learn how to do the job. That's just not what the place is built for. It's already at the top. You're running, you know what I mean. And they wanted me to go cover It was a charity game in Houston after Hurricane Katrium. I had never covered anything before in my life. I had no idea

what I was supposed to do. And now I'm dropped off in a locker room at a charity game. And you have to understand, it's one thing to get dropped off in a locker room. And it's like a star player and then just the dudes that are on the team, not for the charity game after Katrina that's being broadcast on T and T. It's like being at the whole star game, right, and it's not just the all star players, it's like the all star media guys. Dude, I'm terrified.

I'm legitimately terrified. I have no idea what I'm supposed to do. I'm obviously shook. I'm standing in the corner room. I'm not a type of person who's inclined to go make conversations with strangers, not understanding that's the whole job. And these guys expect you to come up here and do it because I've never been in that space, and I'm sure and I look over and I see Kobe sitting there, and I don't think he asked me to come over there. But I walked over to go talk

to Kobe Bryant, and he obviously saw I shook. I was right, like, you clearly understood how scared I was, and I'm like the youngest dude in the room buying large. He was really really nice and like delicate and courty is towards me in that circumstance. Yeah, I really really was. And again this is two thousand five, so nobody knows any like I'm know who am I? You know what I'm saying? Like, and I remember answered my questions he says the things I didn't know. I don't know how

to ask questions. I know how to do anything. And he really kind of like walked me through it that he didn't tell me how to do it, but it was just real cool about it, you know, Like I was like, I always remember that in that way because it was completely counter to anything I would have thought about him before I got in there, and honestly, maybe even counter to a lot of things I might have

thought about him after I got out. But I will never forget that in that moment because I think I realized better now how young I was then I understood at the time, and like that was a real cool thing for you to do. Man. Man, No, man, I had That's that's a great story. I had a couple of interactions with Kobe, might kind of lationship with him was kind of up and down. Uh, And I like to tell the story just to give people an idea. I wasn't just a hater, but you have to understand

how we felt. Uh. I had just wanted We had just won a national championship. And you see it, like, man, I think it's like summer or nineties or the next summer or something. But Kobe shows up as a seven two year old rookie to the gym. So he comes in. Man, everybody kind of looks. We see the you know, tall six six, you know, just good looking young man, just young youth. He gets on the court, starts turning it out. Man. He's dunking on folks, pinning people, goldending everything, just doing

crazy stuff. And so we're just like, dude, what's up with this dude? So ultimately eventually we get into like, you know, a little thing, a little fight. He's you know, he I think he tipped jammed on me and they kind of looked back at me, and I was kind of like, hey man, you know after you man, don't be looking at me like that. And as I'm going to to to go get him, you know, because I'm running at I'm piste off this young man. This young

But that's back in the day. When a young fellow show you up, you know you gotta get it go. That's back in those days. As I run into ad Kobe, all of a sudden, I see Magic Johnson enters my vision and he's like, Chris, come out, Chris, No, that's my chill out. So I like running the Magic kind of like Kobe. Kobe is like behind Magic under scared of you, Chris, like it was a crazy seed. So let's fast. So that happened, and you know, I didn't see Kobe for like another two years. That's fast. I

think I was a sophomore at the time. Fast forward to my senior year. I'm playing in Magic Johnson's Midsummer Night's Classic, which is this big celebrity game that he invites a bunch of pro so he invited us U c l A seniors to play in the game. I get to the arena, find out, man, Kobe's my dog on Coach Bro, He's my coach of the celebrity Game. So I'm already kind of feeling like and this is like Froby and he already busted Sacramento. I mean he's been,

you know, winning the dunk contest. You know, he turned it off. So he's like, I had to sort of bow down and kind of have you know, fall in line both but check this out. So, you know, I get on the court, he puts me in the game. You know, I scored like six or eight in a row. Then all of a sudden, we had we had sort of a free throw situation. I'm kind of on the other end. I hear like a whistle, he whistles. He looks at me, He looks at me on the bench.

I looked look at him. He's like, we keep shooting, keep shooting. He gave me that like keep shooting encouragement. Confidence. Moving from that moment, man, I was just like, man, I felt like a jerk and an asshole, because, like you said, when you have that sort of intimate moment with the guy, he shows you a part of him that you just didn't expect. Man, I didn't expect him to do that. I thought it was gonna be surly about everything showed me love man, dap me up eventually

down the line. You know, I had my feelings about him with Shaq left and all that, but when he when he passed, Bro, it was it was, you know, it was one of the toughest days I had as just an adult. I hate to say that because I have had family and all types of people that have passed, but it was a different sort of tough. It was, you know what I'm saying, both the same thing for me.

It was like, yo, like I say, I'm not a Kobe guy, right, And it was still a thing, right, you know, because look, there were Kobe guys, like they're calling them my podcast, and I was listening to them, right, I Like, I'm not saying that to be like, Yo, I ain't even like that dude. That's the other point I'm making. I'm trying to make sure I understand what he means to some people. I'm not in that space

that those people are in. And even still when that happened, and it really was, it was just like, nah, we kind of grew up with this dude because what I feel like happened to him in the last couple of years, and like the story you described points out he had to learn this people thing right and see, and I could really I could personally relate to that because like I have older parents and I went to school twenty

some miles away from where I lived. I spent most of my childhood interacting with adults, and like on college campuses with my parents. I did not know much about interacting with people who were my own age. Like when I got to college, Oh boy, I was I just didn't know how to do it, right. I'm trying to figure it out, and I really just simply didn't know how to do it. And when you think about Kobe's upbringing and you know where he'd wind up in the

places he's in or whatever. And I was a dude that had to learn how to hang out with his peers. Except he didn't he have any peers. He's Kobe Bryant, and so he just here, I have come to destroy, right, like I have come to destroy, And now he destroyed everybody. And he's probably like, yo, what's the big deal? Why

these guys bad? And like bad bad, you know, and I could have badge you Kobe sitting there with him, but like like like with a five year old hit you back with the simplest questions because like you know, you try to hit him with something that don't really make no sense, and they just can't. They can't grasp the nuance of what you're talking about. Like that's what I could imagine. And so that's what I really thought.

As he got farther along with him. It's just it sounds like he just got a bit better at interacting with people. Yeah, he did. And then you know how he ended everything. You know, it's kind of being a sort of the role model or stepping up for the women's game. I think that part of it, and then the girl dad aspect. Man, So you know it was it's been tough, but I thank you for sharing, uh that story, man, because I try to get everybody's take on somebody that meant a lot to a lot of people. Brother,

um Bo, Man, it's been a real one. It's it's about an hour in man, I think, uh, we can shut it down here. Man. I appreciate you're giving us your time, brother, being open with us talking about what we did. My man, and uh, and I hope we can do this again. Sometimes all good. We gotta catch up. You realized it's been ten years since we was hanging in New York that time. How did ten years like run away that fast? I'll talk about fast too, but

I look up. Man, it's like what No, Man, that was a memorable night, man, But we got to do it again at some point both. Yeah. Man, let me know how I let you next time. I make it out to l A. If the world's don't catch on fire man, please do I got you. I gott to appreciate it, alright. But Monty Jones on kJ Live