Gottlieb - All Ball - with guest Chris Beard

to do the let's talk about your players. We'll talk a little bit about the Elite eight, a little bit about you know, losing a one and done first time ever Texas Tech. UH and Chris Beard have lost a one and done. What I want to get to is his kind of mere curial path from being a high school ball player that was set to go to like a D two n a I A level school and UH went to Texas, thought about going back to playing in an n A I A school, finished up at Texas,

became a a very young assistant coach. So what I want to get to with Chris Beard is his path to becoming not only a head coach, but a really good one. It's it's he's super interesting, you know. Um, he's a great storyteller. Plus there's some Bob Knight to it, right, Like, don't you want Bob Knight stories? Of course, you want Bob nice stories. I love Bob Knight stories. Before he joins us, I'm gonna give you a Bob Knight's story

of my own life. One of the things in the feedback that many of you guys give me tell us more stories. Okay, here's the story. When I was getting to be a freshman for as a freshman at Notre Dame, I got invited to the U S a U S Trials and uh, it was like the undernineteen trials. A matter of fact, it's funny because Tim Duncan was a

sophomore maybe going to be a junior. He's really young, and I was an old high school senior, and so he could have played in the maybe it's the eighteen and under or something like that, and he actually played up because he was just so much better than everybody play like the twenty one and under the me and under it. I was on the eight team under. I don't remember how it worked. So um, I was. I was friends of the guy named Charlie Miller. Childie Miller's

nicknames Fluke. He's from Miami, Florida, actually played for Frank Martin and uh um, he played for Biami Senior High School. Anyway, so Fluke could come out and stayed at my house and played on my AU team the summer before this is back when you could play kind of out of area stuff. So we used to fly guys in every summer to load up our team. And Charlie is a

great dude. He had just completed his freshman year at Indiana, and then Brian Evans was also there, and so I kind of befriended Brian Evans and Charlie and I was, you know, like a little brother to both of them,

hanging out around the USA Trials. So and when in basketball and a lot of you guys are coaches or players and you know this, but one of the things that when you play for or work for a vivid personality like a good ice breaker, is give me a give me a story, right, give me a you know, if he had played with a guy who was a whack job, give me a what's it? Called, you know, give me a story, and so I never forget. I said, you know, give me a story about coach Knight. And um,

at the time the story what was this that? Uh, they were coming back from Iowa, playing on the road in Iowa, and Indiana's team playing had a chair for Bob Knight up in the front and it could spin around and face the rest of the team and they

lost to Iowa. And Coach Knight had a bowl of fruit and he was stewing over his bowl of fruit looking at the statueet and he turned around to look at the team and he started reading the stat line and every negative stat that he would read, he pick up a piece of fruit and throw it at one Greg Graham five turnovers? Are you freaking kidding me? And he started throwing fruit at Greg Graham. And then of course the managers like, what are you supposed to do?

You when you get the fruit, your reload coach so that he has his fruit because he wants to eat it or he wants to throw it again. So um, there's all. There's all kinds of There's a famous video out there of Coach Night getting run over. Every most coaches have been run over at practice and that is good is gold? Right? The coaches yelling and streaming, and he forgets that we're transitioning offense to defense. And you know, some of these dudes they get into their forties, fifties, sixties.

Sometimes they trip, sometimes they're just old. Sometimes it just surprises them and they fall or they get they just get run over because you know, if you're you're playing uh, you're playing offense, and all of a sudden the shot goes up and he's on your ask to get back and get that back on defense, you turn, you sprint and all there's coach so supposedly also and one of the other stories was that there was a film that they had common to hear from the managers of Coach

Night getting run over at practice, and they enjoyed it so much that when they'd have a bad day, they would all go over to Brian Evans apartment and and run it incessantly over and over and over again. Let's watch it again and again. Some has some Bob Nights stories, uh, and some other stories upcoming with Chris beard Um the hoop. I want to get to real quick in terms of the NBA. Is many people reacting now is it's it's set in that Lebron James is going to be a

member of the l A Lakers. Now, look, you don't have to agree with my opinion. It's okay, uh, And it's it's not such a strong opinion that it's like this is absolutely the right way and there's no wrong way.

I've said for a long time that Michael Jordan is to the greatest player I've ever seen play basketball, and and the struggle I've had with Lebron this is more previous to this year because he had a little bit more of this has has has been that in any basketball game I ever played him, especially like pickup games, and that's kind of way the NBA has always been.

You get down game in the line, you get the ball of your best player, and you get the hell all the way and he's gonna go get you a bucket, right. And I understand that Lebron James is wired to to set people up, and he's in credible pastor. He's a really good pastor um. But there was something about the killer instinct that at times he would defer. And while that's great in big situations, you know, it's it's not

always great. That's great in some situations, always great in the biggest of situations, as opposed to Jordan, who had to learn to pass as Kobe had to. I don't know if he ever truly learned to trust his teammates, but he did trust Derek Fisher, and Derek Fisher made him look good. Um. I do think there's there's some genius to him, and it was uh to to Lebron and how he plays. But Larry Bird didn't have to learn the pass to to to score down the stretch.

Magic Johnson didn't either. So, however you regard Lebron James is the greatest player of all time, the greatest player of this era, I'm okay saying he's the greatest player of this era, even if I thought Kevin Durant in many ways outplayed him in both the past two NBA finals.

And I actually think that Lebron James is living a lot on reputation defensively, and Kevin Durant, though his defense wasn't as good most the season as it was the start of the year, and in the playoffs, he has shown the desire to play more defense than he ever did. So whether or not I think he's the best player, now the second best player. It's in arguable over the last decade, he's been consistently the best or one of the top three players in the NBA. Right, we were

okay with that. Cool. So he goes to the Lakers, and now people are being critical in many ways, saying, look, Barkley said he wants to be a mogul, and everybody's saying, it's not about winning. And look, I don't think it's solely about winning, but I think that winning is part of the equation. It's just not the only part of the equation. Family location, whether ability to you know, ability to to do something after after basketball, Like, you know,

I think he's an incredibly well rounded guy. Now that that may not fit your narrative or what you want for your athletes. And it's interesting because Kobe has found this second passion. Right, here's Kobe Bryant, guy who a lot of people thought, man, he is just not he is just not going to be able to cope. He's not gonna be able to cope with um, with with not having basketball, and he's already won, you know, an Oscar. So we were so scared that Kobe wouldn't know what

to do with himself. And at some of the Kobe's curious. He's very bright, and uh, some of it I think was helped out by the fact that he had the year off when he had the Achilles tendon surgery and the rehab. You know, people think you rehab twenty four hours a day. You don't. Kobe also spent more time as a father, you know, started a program for his daughter, a du daughters, both of them soccer than basketball, and he started to develop other interests. Lebron has other interests

and he's still a great player. He's what you what you understand when you're in a business is like what you understand is as a student. I remember when he first got to college and you were just overwhelmed by like, oh, I got all these classes, I got this the syllabus to keep up with the reading and the homework and the tests and yeah, by the way, I'm trying to have a social life. And for me, he was lifting in basketball and eating and and being away from home.

Like you just your time management skills suck three years into college. Time management skills are awesome. That's no different than now. He's a machine guy's a machine. Gets up, you know, gets up. Most of these guys get up. They work out early. I'll give you an example, Gordon Hayward. I know this for a fact. Gordon Hayward gets up at five, he's in, he's at his his workout place at six. From six to seven, he works on his body, lifting, running,

whatever his trainer has him do. And then from seven to eight he works on his game and then he's done, doesn't touch the basketball the rest of the day. That's his offseason routine. And so from eight until whatever, Gordon Hayward is just a dad, and he's just a dad. As we found out, he's gonna be the dad of another daughter, but he's just a dad. Well that's the same for Lebron. Like these guys, they understand how to

manage their time. You know, they have drivers, they have chefs, they have trainers, they have guys that just stretched them and take care of their body and within that other time, within that downtime, he's past the video game playing stage. You know, he's past the staring at his phone stage. So yeah, he can be a mogul, but he can also still be a great basketball player. I don't think what Lebron James is. I don't think what Charles Barkley

is saying is wrong. I think he is on the downward side of his career, but he's still kind of in the downward side of his prime. Right. He hasn't hit the oh my god, Jason Kidd can't make a lay up stage. He's not close to that. He's he's managed the mileage on his odometer better than anybody in the history maybe of any sport. That's what's really remarkable about him. So, look, it's it's thrown people for a loop, but we all kind of knew it was coming. The

roster is a little bit different than you thought. But as I've stated previously on my radio show three to Sixties Tren twelve to three Pacific, The Dug outl Lip Show, Fox Sports Radio, there was no blank slate. You can't create a team out of nothing, and based on what was available, this was the path that they've chosen. Let's get some junkyard dogs, experienced guy is off the bench and see what the young guys got. And so as we react to Lebron James, is that a sure fire

championship team? No? But I also think he's a builder. People like the build. This is here's the housing analogy. You know. Some people like to buy a really sick house that somebody else redid and just live in it and and and enjoy life. Some people like going in and buying excuse my language, but a shitter. You know, you go in and you buy something that needs to and they like to, whether they scrape it or they just read you the kitchens in the bathroom and the

tile and they paint everything. And then you know they're in it for a couple of years and they're like, now we made profit, let's sell it. Let's move on. Let's move down the street and do the exact same thing. That's who Lebron James's. He likes to redo things. So I have you know, I we knew it was coming. It was a little bit harder than people will allow magic to allow us to believe with magic. Remember magic walked in and Paul George wasn't coming. He had to

explain that one away. Even if they had cooled on Paul George and some people saw it coming, the fact is that you're getting ready to have a meeting. You're the only one that has the meeting. And all you gotta do is make the wide open jump shot, and Paul George decides he stay in Oklahoma City. That had to be somewhat of a surprise. So they closed the deal and now everybody reacts. Um. I'll also point out this in regards to the NBA, and this is really important.

I think in regards to the NBA, the Oklahoma City Thunder I think got better, more so than anyone outside of the Lakers. They refined their roster first, getting Paul George back year two, He is going to be better. You are more comfortable, You know how to play within the offense, even if they restructure things. You have a better relationship with Russell Westbrook. You know how that you're just more comfortable year two in a college or two

in a job. You're just more comfortable. Getting ready to Carmelo Anthony, who they couldn't hide defensively, and they needed to feed the basketball to and get him shots. That's better. Remember, they get Andre Robertson back, who they love because he's such a versatile defender and he has no ego offensively, albeit he's got to make some You just gotta make a shot in order to keep people honest, And then I like the I really like the acquisition of going

out and getting getting Dennis Shrewder. Shooder is not a great starting point guard. He's probably bottom five to seven in terms of the starting point guards in the league. Not great. But as they back up, is the sixth man who can move Russell Westbrook off the ball. That's a great get. That's a really really good get. So again, not working with a blank slate. Having Russell Westbrook, did they do they have enough shooting around him? I don't know.

You got Paul George, you still got breedness, you got the ability to go small with grant Um, and now you get another guard who can who can defend the basketball and who can get into lane and create shots for himself and for others, for others, is is a bit of a question mark. I like it. I think Oklahoma City is gonna challenge to be the second best team in the West. Whether that they have the second

best record in the West, that doesn't really matter. Oklahoma City is gonna be a tough out, a really really tough out. And uh, I'm I'm fascinated to see what happens with the Thunder in regards to the n c A for college basketball. We wait and wait and wait, and we'll find out what the new recruiting rules, what the new calendar looks like. But it does look like it's going to be a combination of the recommendations of

the committee and the recommendations of college coaches. I don't know how these camps work, these massive camps run by NBA people and n c A people and somehow taking shoe companies out of it. I hope to be involved. They call me, I may make a call. I'd like to be involved. I think it'd be great for guys that love the game that don't have a specific tie to a specific shoe company or specific AU program that that that's been on the tape. I like that. But

I also think it keeps the AU teams going. They'll still be the Peach Dam, they'll still be the Gauntlet, They'll still be other events as well. I don't think that will die. And I think April recruiting period is important. I like the idea getting high school coaches involved, but I also like the idea of keeping college coaches more engaged with their own current players. If it was me, if I was staying the rules. The rules will be there are no rules, right instead of having condensed weekends

where you can come out and see kid. Just look, if you want to go on the road, recruit, go on the road recruit. If you're a recruiting assistant coach, you should be allowed to go out whenever you want. This idea that you're gonna bombard players and and be around them too much. If you're around a kid too much and he wants space, he's gonna eliminate you from recruiting him. Everybody likes attention, they don't like creepy attention. So to me, i'm a I'm a less. Rules is more.

Don't pay your players, don't change their grades, you know, don't pay people who are gonna pay the players, and don't you know, don't encourage anybody else to change their grades. That that that's kind of it. I know there's gotta be a couple more rules than that, But that's about it for me. But we'll wait to see what happens. We'll start to preview college basketball as well. We continue to update you on NBA stuff. Dwight Howard, by the way, saying this is bouncing back to the NBA saying that

the Warriors called. I do think the Warriors wanted a big guy. They want get a big guy in the cheap. They got to Marcus Cousins. They thought they could get Dwight Howard, and then Cousins called him and kind of surprised them. The difference with Cousins and Howard is Cousins is more in his prime and can shoot the basketball, but he's not gonna play until March. Howard can't shoot and is also kind of a weird fit with the

personality of that team. Although he's a guy who likes to have fun, they like to have fun playing uh, but playing style wise, he could be an odd fit, especially considering the minutes would be limited that he'd get there. But the money that he got in Washington was the money that he would get in Gold States. So it's reasonable to think they called and then he was usurped and moved. He was he was. He was passed over

when they went and got to Marcus Cousins. That's my read on some of the NBA stuff we mentioned some of the college basketballs. One last thing, Ian Williamson weighs out weighs in a two five pounds. He's six five and change pounds. Dude, this this is I mean, he's a tank, but he's got a slim up because his explodes as as most of its an athlete as he is, and he's explosive. Um he it's his ability to make it at the next level is gonna be Kenny easy, agile enough to move out on the floor. He's gonna

have to be an undersized foe. Man. They're gonna have to shoot a little bit better, but that's gonna come with with work ethic got learned to play harder on defense, but he has a lot of He has the god given athletic ability, but he needs to be playing in the two fifties to sixties. He always wish whatever Villanova does with those guys to slim down, that's what Duke should do. So as I'm I'm getting ready for the Duke Kentucky's maybe even to Carolina if they figure out

their point guard situation. U c l A should be loaded. Uh. College basketball is gonna be a lot of fun this year to cover. Obviously a whole new team in Villanova, since seemingly their entire team went in the first round of the NBA Draft. Keep an eye on Zion Williamson, who is a YouTube sensation. But watch for his weight, watch for his movement defensively, and whether or not he could shoot the basketball. I think his basketball like Q

is good enough. It's gonna be more about his basketball mode. All right, let's get you to Chris pet All right, let's roll on here in the All Ball podcast, as we talked basketball all the time. This I don't know. As soon as we started doing this pod. One of the first I don't know, like ten people that came to my mind in terms of just the name like all Ball, which is all basketball all the time, was

the head coach of Texas Tech. He's had an incredible run um, starting out as an assistant kind of working his way up through the different levels of coaching to becoming not only have do any spectacular job at Little Rock, but then Texas Tech. In just two seasons, I mean, think about this, one and four fifty four. That's his uh, that's his record so far. He's been the champion of the Sun Belt. Of course, he was Coached the Year in the Big Twelve, Coach of the Year in in

the Sun Belt. I mean, you go back and look at his resume, and it is. It's just one of incredible growth. But it's also a guy who the more you get to know him, the more you know he kind of is all ball all the time. Chris Pierre joins us here on the podcast. Um, is that is that fair? Like? Do you have if you had if you had to pick your three other interests outside of basketball, and you can't say you're girls, can't say your girls? What would they be? Well, that's a tough one. Man.

I was going to go down the daughter Avenue and the girlfriend Street, but um, can we still say girlfriends one of the three? That's fine? I mean, listen, women, women and women in your life? Would be would be one? Right? If there was two in their three? Like do you fish? Do you hunt? Do you like rehabbing houses? Do you like the market? Like? What? What? What would two in three be if it wasn't for basketball? You know, none

of those things? I did. Used to play golf earlier in my career, but I have not swung a golf club since I met Bob and Patt Night true story. Um, used to play not all the time, and I played, like, you know, once a week or something. But then once I got here, the text and assistant. Not that those guys wouldn't let me play golf, just kind of like

trying to prioritize time and things like that. I've got kind of a competitive, almost you know, addictive personality, so I'm also scared to go play because I know I'll get the bug again. Um. But after women in my life, i'd have to say, you know, one thing I try to do a lot, um is I go to a lot of movies. That kind of started in my single coaching days. I'd always go to like the ten o'clock PM movie, no matter what was showing, kind of time to turn the phone off and just relax a little bit,

let your mind go somewhere overside basketball. And I've still continue to do that. It's it's very rare there's a movie out that I haven't seen. Um. And then thirdly, you know, I don't know, maybe watching NBA basketball that's still qualifies as basketball, alright, So it's different, different, different than college basketball. I do think it is different. I do think I want to get to that in a second. Um, Look, we could sit here and kind of run down your

guys Elite eight run but I don't know. I mean that that would be the VCR going through your mind. I think it's far more interesting how you got to where you are, how you develop your philosophy, and and how you continue to evolve as as a coach. I think I think, to people who love basketball, that's that's fascinating. All right, So let's go back, um McCullough high school, right,

that's uh. And then you go to you go to you say, I want to go to Texas because of Tom Penders and I want to be part of that staff, and I want to learn ball or why why did you go to ut? Yeah? So my journey growing up, you know, I kind of played everything football, baseball, basketball, like everybody, whatever season was in session is kind of where your love was. And then right around the time, like junior high, high school, I kind of made a

commitment in high school just to play basketball. It really just fell in love with the sport for so many reasons. The locker room, the camaraderie, the competitiveness. Um, it was always hard to get enough people in the neighborhood together to play football or even baseball. Basketball. Can't even play with yourself, you know, imagination, driveway, the whole deal. Um. Two great high school coaches. Mike coon Stat was my

first high school coach in Irby, Texas. Coach koon Stat now one of the best recruiting service UM events guy out there with great American sports in Texas. And then at McCullough playing for Terry Priest to Texas High School Hall of Fame coach. Those guys really mentored me. I'd say, second to my own father, those guys that probably had

the most influence in my life. I was going. I was set to go play like Division five basketball UM in a kind of an academic kind of school around Austin Southwestern University, not disrespecting those people had already paid my application fee and everything. Then there was a coaching change. The coach at the time then went to a Division two school. I asked that coach, now, hey, when do I need to be there? Any kind of pause and said, you're not coming here. So reality kind of hit me

in the face there. So I decided to go to the University of Texas State School and then kind of my admiration for coach pinners in that program. UM. Once I got there, got involved with the team as quick as I could, took a little bit of a detour during my college years, uh, to chase the playing dream again at Concordia Lutheran where Rusty Siegler was the coach. Um, a really really good coach in his own right, went

back to Texas turn so down. Wait, okay, so how long were you Texas before you decided you want to play? Because my brother did that. He was he was supposed to go like low D one and he just couldn't get into it. He got into u C l A. He was supposed to walk on, you know, he got beat out to be a walk on, and so he's just like a frat boy. Then a couple of years and he's like, dude, I want to play. He started working out of the summer with me. He went to j C camps and he end up going to Drake

as a walk on. So how many years are you at you t before you went to Concordia? Yeah, sametime story, it's like an addiction. You know, I love a basketball as the disease. There's all of us out here that really weren't very good players that had the disease. So basically a Texas first year kind of getting used to school and going down that route and then really missing basketball.

Got back involved with the team's second year college with coach Fenders, Victorulli, Eddie Orne, some great guys that really helped my career, and then just playing with the guys in the summer and after practice and stuff, just really started missing it and kind of I didn't want to live my life with any kind of regrets. Um, the deal had happened real quick when I didn't go to Southwestern, So I got back in decent shape and then had an opportunity to go to Concordia Loot and which is

actually right there in Austin. UM was only there for a summer session, and then right when the school years started back to coach the Rusty Siegler gave me some of the best advice in my life, like, Chris, looks, you're wanting to coach, what are you doing here? You're about to go in debt. I had to fasten out taking student loans and all sorts of stuff. Um, but with the advice is Rusty Siegler and Tom Penders and those guys went back to Texas quickly, so it was

really only a Concordia for one semester. Okay, so you gad you eight Texas Uh? And then um? And then how how long before you went to incarnent word? Yes? And Carna where it was my first job. How's a graduate assistant there? Um with Danny Casper was now the head coach of Texas State. Steve Lutts has done a great job in his career. Is it per due? Now? With coach Paynter, I think the future head coach very soon was the other graduate assistant and it was probably, uh,

one of my best breaks I've had. I tell young guys all the time, if you can get on somebody's staff like Danny Casper early on, you'll find out, you know, whether you really want to coach. He'll push you hard, he'll be fair, but he'll he'll teach you what it's all about. And so that was a great first year. We won a conference championship my first season of coaching. Still have that ring today, probably displayed in the office. And then you went to Abilene Christian Why why? Why

make a move over? What was a full time job? So in the Carnate word, I'm a graduate assistant basically just making a couple hundred dollars a month kind of surviving. And then Avelene Christian was a chance to get a full time position with with Health Insurance UM. Shannon Hayes was the coach at um A CEU at that time. You might know of him Doug He's got some Oklahoma state ties. Was coach Dickey's assistant in Texas Tech later on, and his dad, Larry Hayes, was the all time great

baseball coach here at Texas Tech. UM. So that was a great year, you know, being at the four year level and finally getting a paycheck. And then he went to North Texas. Yeah, so back to the Texas roots. Being at Texas and undergrad. Vic truly was one of the assistants for coach Penders. That relationship got me to the Division one level. I think at the time I might have been the youngest full time assistant Division one. I only know that because my mom's got a Basketball

Times article I think still in the house. I read when I go home. Well, what those two really good years with Vic? What what do your parents think this whole time? Like, like my my dad's parents thought he was crazy. You know he started he uh he was his first job was like he graduated from Colombia with a master's degree, and he went to coach at Fair Law In High school in New Jersey, where he replaced

Hub Brown. Like my my, my grandparents thought he was crazy, like actually had him talk to a psychologist where they thought because he loved basketball so much, like he's got something gotta be wrong with this this guy. What do your parents think when here you are, great student in high school, good basketball player, and you know, you think about leaving Texas and then you're taking all these jobs. Like what's what's the advice they're giving you at the time? Yeah,

same same neighborhood man. They think I'm crazy too. Um. I do think my dad told me one thing early on, kind of like cliche advice. That's it's true. You know, you try to find something that you love to do. Um, and you know it's obviously it's since a young age. I just love basketball. Um. The cool thing about my old man, though, he's like he's so loyal, you know, he's like, you give him a T shirt, He's just like where is it? Until he can't wear it anymore.

So as I changed jobs from time to time, I was like, Dad, you want to just kind of clear that out. I can get you a lot of gear. Now you know my text tech You've got to a budget and he's like, no, I still like that shirt, So I'll go home. He'll be wearing like a Corner Words shirt next day, Fort Scott Community College, next week, Seminole North Texas, a little Rock South Carolina Warriors. He has them all, like, he literally has like a call the full of two shirts. But he's so stinking loyal

that he won't get rid of him. He just keeps them in the rotation. That's that's awesome. Okay, So, uh, you're what twenties six and you get the Fort Scott job twenty six? What was the process like of your Division one assistant and decide I want to be ahead? Like, did you decide I want to be a head coach? Did it just present itself? Uh? You know what? Why why leave a Division one job instead of trying to

get another Division one job? Go to j C. You know, I spent a lot of time earlier in my career and I still do asking the advice of people that I respect, Like just this past week on the road, you know, I run into coach right, who has been so great to me since the Villanova game of course they beat us, you know, kind of nice. It's easy to be nice to somebody, you'd be but um, but I you know, try to, like those two or three minutes I had with him between games, try to ask

him something you know, valuable. And spent some time with Bill self this past week on the road, but always asking people kind of like advice on how to how to get through this deal. And early on, I think the thing that I realized was like everybody's advice is kind of different, and I came up with my own idea. You know, if there's no right path, if there was a right path to a head coaching job of success,

everybody would take it. Well, I think you got to just kind of get a path that you're comfortable with and and don't look back. You know. It's like I tell our players, there's no right decisions in life. You make the decision, then you make it right. Um. And so with us, I was just sitting there, you know, in North Texas, really happy working for big Division one level,

really close to my hometown Irving. We had good players, Um, but I just felt like, you know, I gotta get some head coaching experience, and I just thought that was important, so many reasons, maybe at the top of the list that I wasn't a great college player. I just felt the need to get out there and see if I

could really get this done. So I just started applying for head coaching jobs, and and Kevin Gundy, who was the a d at Fort Scott Community College, really gave me the break of all breaks and gave me a head coaching job at a young age. I went there, rolled up the sleeves and kind of figured out, yeah, I can do this. Okay, So but you're coaching philosophy at the time. You know, like all these different people that you played for, that you worked for, they all

had a vast array of styles. But in your mind, we all kind of do this. Man, if I ever get a team this so I'm gonna play. How did you play it at at Fort Scott. Well, I've always believed in defense, you know. It started as a as a as a player. It's the way I could get on the court, be a guy that my coach could trust to defend and not foul and play the game the right way. My high school coaches were defensive minded. Coach Pender's obviously defense with pressing and trapping and being aggressive.

Danny Casper one of the best half court defensive coaches, and that kind of a combination of both. So I came into that job knowing like, hey, we're gonna guard, and I'd wide recruited junior college for a couple of years. I've seen a lot of good talent teams that looked the park, but they didn't guard. So I knew from day one and we're going to defend. Whether that's the pressure or contained, we'll see what kind of players would get,

but we're gonna guard. Then. I've always been a guy who just understanding, man, look you gotta have the players. Like what's happened here at Texas Tech. I appreciate everybody's compliments that it means a lot to me, but at the bottom line is, you know, this past year we had three NBA players on our team, Keenan Evans and I are Smith. I think Zack Smith's right there as well. It's had a bad injury, and so I mean, you know,

this coaching deal is a little overrated. You better go get some guys who can play and want to play for you. And I learned that growing up. You know, at the Park, we play at the park on the nights, and you know, and Irving, we played the Conflints and there'll be thirty five guys deep. You know, it's like it's your next game. You better win or you're not gonna play for another two hours. Not if you're really, really good, so By might pick you up. But I wasn't.

So I learned at a young age, I better get with the best players here so we can stay on the court. So back to the junior college days sports scot we went out and got us some dudes. We had some real players. Um we we taught him how to play defense. We had a good, unselfish culture, and and we went to work. Whenever I see those guys, I just saw Sean Mason the other day. His son is on the AUTH circuit now. Sean played for US

at Scott. But almost kind of apologize those guys, like, hey, man, I wish I would have been better coach back in those days. What I don't apologize for is how we treated them and how we guarded and how we tried to do things right. But obviously I'm a better coach today than I was back in those days. Are you gonna selling off for a year and then how did you get How did you tell me how the relationship with coach Knight started? I know that he's really close

to Danny Janny Casper, I know. I mean all those texts guys, Bob and I gets the job at Texas Tech. How did you come onboard? Yeah, that's a great story, you know. And I really didn't even realize how he got the job until I got here and just kind of pinching myself and thinking pat Night every time I walked by his office. But um, it's so true. Like I tell our players all the time, you got to treat everybody with class in life. You never know who's

gonna help you or who's gonna hurt you. Um, every relationship, supporting everything matters. And the Texas Tech break for me was, you know, when I was coaching at Fort Scott Community College, Jerry Mullen, uh, the you know, the nation's number one junior college guy. He lives in in Kansas City and Fort Scott happened to be maybe the quickest Juico he

could get to. So even without me knowing, he came to games from time to time not only to evaluate our team, but basically to see who we were playing that night, So if Seward came to Fort Scott, that was his chance to watch Stewart him and I think, you know, we coach right, and we treat our guys the right way, and we try to respect the game. And um So when Coach Night he took that one year off from coaching, he was getting organized. He had two or three job offers, Texas Tech being one of them.

He made a couple of calls and he called Jerry Mullan said, hey, I'm putting this team together. I think if I take X job, why job Z job? I might have to you know, allounge junior college players, especially at the first and Coach Mullen, even though me and him didn't have a great relationship or didn't know each other well, he recommended me. He's like, hey, there's a young guy down of Fort Scott's actually from Texas that

I've seen his team play several times. So I think Jerry Molan a million times since then, almost to the point where he rolls his eyes when he sees me coming. But it's just a great example for all of us that sometimes the people that you don't even know what are the people that help you if you try to do things right. Okay, but did did you call? Did they call you? Did coach Knight call you? To Pat? Call you? Like? How did how did the contact begin? Yeah?

So I think coach was really close to taking a job. There's about two or three on the table. Um. I think Pat was coaching a Acorn at the time, but he was starting to get organized, knowing he's gonna make a move a coach. And I just got a call one day, um, because actually from Karen Knight coaches. Why she's called the house before cell phones. Back in those days, I had the old school answer machine next to my bed.

I'll never forget. It was like a Saturday morning after the season, so it's been like late March Providence, real early, like real early phone rings. And if you can hear the message, like hey, Chris, is Karen Night, Bob Knight's wife. He wants to talk to you about a couple of players. Well, I thought it's a print call. I got all sorts of buddies, man, we give each other ship all the time. I thought it was an absolute print call. So I did not return the call. I didn't even blink at it.

Later that afternoon, when I got home from the office, there was another message, and you could tell Karen's voice was changed a little bit, like, Hey, Chris, is my second message too? Then I started thinking, man, this might be like half we legit. So I made a call, found out the coach's wife's name sure was Karen, and I, of course I called back to the afternoon, probably made

up some kind of excuse that I didn't get the messages. Um, But basically coach was going around dung and looking at some of the best unsigned players in the country back in those days with the rules that was completely the legal because he didn't have a job. He came out to seminole, spent the time with me, um, and you know, and everything worked out. I got the job. One of our guys went with me. When when you, uh, did

you know him before he came out of seminole. I did not it, never met him, but it obviously been a huge fan growing up, I mean from season on on the Brain. The first book I ever read, I was supposed to read Where the Red Fern Grows in fourth grade, just loving Worth, but I didn't read it. My brother had the Cliff Notes. First time I learned about Cliff notes. Was the fourth grade. Not a big reader again girls movies, NBA basketball, reading what on the list?

But I did read Season on the brain too. I had an infatuation with coach day one. Okay, so he shows up at seminal like did you play cool? Did you meet him in his car? Like? What's I mean? Because because I do think that one thing unfortunately with you know, he might of coach a little too long

and they went to TV. And so I think people's perspective when you say coach night now might be different of those of us who grew up loving ball right like my dad used to when he was when he was the Army, he used to go to his clinics and then when was it in the end he go to his cline. Still I still have notes my dad took when he because he used to an offense called the California reverse and and I still have those those those notes my Dad's how house that my mom still keeps.

So this is basketball Royalty shows up at Seminole Junior College at your school. You've an't been a head coach for two years now, two different junior colleges. What do you do you remember anything about that? Meeting. Absolutely. I remember Karen it called the night before and set up some my lodgings for Coach and I really I was trying to encourage her to tell Coach to stay in Oklahoma City. I could come get in the next mory or whatever. Then it got back to me that no,

that's not how Coach rolls. He wants to stay right there in town, which now I understand knowing Coach, he's not kind of like a big time kind of you know perception, He's he's real man. He would rather be at the motel sixth and the then the West End. I mean, that's just Coach night. That's why he's beautiful. But anyway, so he ends up staying. We have one hotel and similar the time called the Seminal End right across from the campus. Great dive bar in there by

the way like that, that's not a part of the stories. No, that's good. Wait what's the dive bar? This is this is good? What's the dive bar? It's just a great spot day like Dollar Draft on Wednesdays or something like that. Um. Anyway, so back to Coach. I went over to pick him up that morning. It's like a maybe Monday Tuesday morning

the time or something, and I never forget. The doors just kind of cracked since I kind of knocked the door, and he's just like, come on in, and I'm he's like drying off from the shower and sit down on the butt on the bed. We like literally talking basketball five minutes and when I'm met him, but just the most down to earth guy, just loves basketball. Like he's the perception of what people think Coach Night is and

who he is just so far off. He's like a really really good person that's easy to talk to in the whole, you know, when when he's when he's respects. I guess the person he's with done a great thing about that. That Later that day, after he'd watched our players and spend the time together, I told myself that I was gonna kind of get the nerve up to ask him, you know, especially at the Texas Tech job. Happened to me being from Texas, you know, what was he gonna do with his staff? I really wasn't like

star struck at the times. I've met so many people Ludols and Jerry Tarkanian, you name it, over the years at junior college. So we're to let a star struck deal, so I was kind of in my element. I got my courage up driving down to the Oklahoma City Airport. This is before nine eleven, so you didn't have to go through security. So I made it all the way to the gate because slightly is in like thirty minutes. I'll never forget. We're sending at this little bitty round table.

We're both eating pizza. People are coming up to Coach trying to get autographs. He's he's gracious, he does it, but when the food starts, he's politely telling people, hey, can wait a second, will eat. I finally get my courage. I've done and I was like, hey, Coach. I was like, I'm not sure what you're gonna do with your staff, especially if you take the tech job, but um, I just wanted to tell you. I know you have a lot of people, anybody you wanted, but nobody you know

would work harder to be more appreciative than me. And he kind of cut me off. And I'll never forget this one of my great life lessons I tell the players every year. I really believe this coach kind of looked at me. He was wiping it the pepperoni kind of off his mouth and he said, Chris, look, I've never been concerned with how how hard somebody works, like that's a given. I'm much more concerned with who can get what done? And I'll never forget he said that.

I like, Um, I tell everybody that I respect and everybody I coached that story because I think in our business one thing I don't like because he's self promoters and he's a worker. He works hard. Ship, we all work hard. You're not working hard, you don't win. But what I'm really interested in with our staff is who can get things done? Okay, so you get to Tech and he takes over a program and I knew it so well because we played against him, you know, and

I love coach Dickey. He's a good man. Obviously, they had some academic stuff which caused them, you know, to not be able to have all their scholarships, and and they weren't great, but they weren't bad either. So how did I mean, Look, that thing got going in like a year, right, I mean first year? I think you guys made made the tournament. What when when you look back at Tech and how coach Knight turned that thing around? So quickly, and I know Andre Emmett some of those

guys are already there. What were a couple of things that that he did and that you still to this day that you know, that's that's the magic of what made Bob Knight. But I think the first thing you hit it on the head. You gotta give Coach Dicky credit. We inherited all conference players and Andre mm and Andy Ellis. This always happens, you know. I try to tell people every chance I get how fortunate we were to follow Steve Shilds at lew Rock and Tubby Smith the Texas Tech.

It always perturbs me when a guy comes into a job and doesn't embrace or acknowledge what the last guy did. Coach Knight was great about that. I remember vividly him talking to Coach Dicky on the phone one day, like a month or two months and us being a love it. I thought that was one of the coolest things I've ever seen. Um. But we inhered good players. We also recruited very well right off the bat. Probably can sip

pal the tender college player. We brought in Ronald Ross, one of the all time greats who's on our staff right now here in Texas Tech. So the combination of embracing and coaching and welcoming the returning players and then adding new players gave us a chance to be competitive. And then I'll never forget how just simplified Coach made everything like every day we had some things we got to get done, and we got them done. He kind

of eliminated all distractions. He had great people around him handling a lot of things, and coach just really focused on the basketball. But that first team was with the biggest increase in wins and college basketball, and we basically went from I think the bottom of the Big twelve to third or four that made the tournament the first year. Um. In terms of recruiting, did he empower you? Did he say you can offer a player? Did he have to

come see him? How did it work? That's another great question. And he really trusted his coaches. People asked me that all the time, like were you able to coach with coach? I mean the answers absolutely, I mean you had to.

He wouldn't be here he he UM. You know. Obviously having Pat on the staff was really special because he had such a trust factory was his dad and kind of knew exactly what we were doing, and as the other assistance myself and Bob Bye at the time, we really relied on Pat had to kind of point us in the right direction. And he did. You know, Pat, like I do, one of the most unselfish, best guys you'll ever meet. Um, go back to coach. It was

just a level of simplicity. You know, we're gonna run the motion, We're gonna play a man and man, we're gonna work hard every day. He was just kind of the master of keeping things simple. He also kind of embraced the three point shot, like he struggled with that. He hated the three when he was in Indiana and you guys shot a lot more threes. Was that discussion the staff had, was that Pat pushing him to it?

What what changed? Uh? That's a good question right from my point of view coming in, I just know the coach valued shot selection so strong, like that's probably the first thing about offense. He told me that one time I'm on a large, a long car ride back he goes Dodge City, Kansas, and Um, you know, Chris, the most important thing offensive shot selection. And you know we had some good shooters. If you were a guy to good stroke and that he's gonna let you shoot it.

I mean, you're gonna have the green light. But if you're a guy that's not a great shooter, you have to understand that, hey, we're going to get a good shot. Um. But I think it's probably because the game changed a little bit and coach changed right there with it was he you mentioned he was great to work for, he lets you coach. What was he like at that stage in his career for the players? You know, obviously he has a reputation of being super fiery and at times

difficult to play for. When you watch him and how he treated his players, how would you relay that? You know, Like, if you if you wanted to be coached and you wanted to get a degree and you wanted to win, then you had no problem with coach Night. It was the guys that kind of always had alternate deals. Were all coaches struggle with those players? But um, the thing about coach I mean, he wasn't gonna sit here and try to be your best friend every day, but you

knew he had your back. We've got Darryl dor on our staff now, and Daryl was one of the great players played for coach for four years and Darryl has some stories that I didn't even know. But spending time with Darrel the last couple of years, like when Daryl was a freshman coming from Gonzalez, Texas and kind of tought life to that point. He said that a couple of times Coach would check on a phone call Um stopped by the locker room after practice. Hey, Daryl, come

here and talk to you. These are things that no one really understands. I mean, you don't. You're not the best coach in the history of the game without understanding the personal element too. Um. But Coach was never fake, but he was always real and I think the players knew that he had their back. And yeah, he wasn't easy to play for. UM, but I think if you asked players at any school that wins like Coach did, I mean, nobody's easy to play for him. It's a

competition at the highest level. Okay, you have you love what a burger? Right, and I know that very well. I've listened your press conferences. You always mentioned how much you love what a burger? So I want you to first first your order what a burger is, what breakfast lunch or late night. Oh that's a good question. Breakfast you go, bob? Do you go breakfast in a bun?

Is that what you do? Now? I go t keto? Okay, so but I see I thought unsweetened tea only existed on this earth for one purpose, and that was to be sweetened. But I could be wrong. Um, okay, let's do late night. So late night order? What a burgers? What? Well? What's you guy to do? Late night? Has you got to see how many people are in there? You know, like if the drive through is really backed up, I'm going to go in. If you go in, you know, if you start getting fancy and stuff, you don't have

to wait longer. So really late. Now, to try to keep it really simple, I'll just go with the number one mustard pickle cheese only. I'll go spicy catchup. I'll go unsweet tea if my girlfriends there. If she's not there, I'm going to milkshake. And then if she asked me the next morning, I get a milkshake. I'm probably white line. Okay, So you get a milkshake, you get a number one.

You're sitting in the corner and you've got some got some of your old got got some of your old players, and a couple of assistance and just you know, just Texas basketball dudes. And I know that sometimes this will happen having a beer as well. But let's just picture what a burger, right, give me your give me your best Bob Night, give me the one, all right, my go to Bob Knight's story, go to go with man.

We had a let's see, there's so many of them, probably in that element when the guys are then, you know the kind of things they like to hear. One of the things we would always do is at basketball camp in the summer. You know, Coach was really involved in camp. A lot of these guys just kind of show up, shake hands, take pictures. Coach was there. I mean he was there at all the sessions, and he was invested and he would watch games and stuff. And that's one thing I always kind of looked up to

him for. And we try to do the same thing with our camps here in the summers. I'd like to think that our staff is involved with anybody. But anyway, back the coach days, you know, like we always knew he was coming in the mornings after stretch and he would sit at the main table and he would watch a little bit, maybe check some mel be there, but he was gonna be at that table early in the

morning what he did. So we would always take the camp coach that we wanted to pick on, maybe the guy that had been out too late the night before, maybe the guy we were just trying to you know, give a give a welcome to camp, and we would put him right in front of coach and give him like a defensive station or something to like. Um, one year is actually a junior college assistant that me and

Pat invited to come work camp. He was there and we put him in front of like I don't know, lane denial or shell drill or something, right there in front of coach. Well, you know, we kind of left him out to drag, so we didn't really tell him

exactly how coach teaches things. And sure enough, every year, like clockwork man, you just see coach sitting there and keeps glancing up and eventually just gets the point where he he can't mistake, he can't let mistakes go on where he coaches, and he would just get up and basically kind of ripped the camp coach and stuff and we'd be in the background watching the whole thing. But it was priceless. Every summer. We could execute it every

time we wanted here. It's amazing. Alright, So, uh, you decide you go to you go back to being a head coach. Um when it went in South Carolina, didn't you? Didn't you go to the A B A before you got back to college. I'm Doug, you've never heard of the South Carolina Hey man. I played for the I don't remember how about this. I played in Phoenix in the A B A. I don't know the nickname of

the team I played for. I swear to guy. I was in Israel and mass Track was a coach of the Phoenix team in the A B A. And uh I had I didn't. I didn't like my coach in Israel. Like he was he was a good coach. We just butted heads and like there's one Israeli guy, Guy Guy Contour who could play, and they had to have an Israeli out in the court, and so the only only guy who could really was replaceable was me because otherwise all the other Israelis couldn't play. So like we would

his butt heads constantly and they would do. They would do ship like it'd be you're supposed to get paid on the first and every month, but they would wait until the wait until like the shekel versus the dollar was a better ratio. They wait like four or five days and saved like seventy bucks. And I was just getting pissed about it. So finally I go to them and I was like, look, I'll stay the whole time and I would have to stay and do like this basic training, but you have to promise me I'm gonna

get all my money. And the president of the club was like, we will do the best we can. I was like, come on, man, just probably give me your word as a man, look me in the eye and just say I'll get you all your money. And he wouldn't do it. And so I started making calls to my agent and I call Mas and Mas is like, look, I'm gonna cut I gotta cut my point guard and you can come. You can start for me. But like, look at the A B A is really good ball, but you might get paid, you might not. But NBA

scouts come and watch. So I know the NBA. I swear to god, I don't know the team. The nickname of the team. So you went coaching the A B A in in South Carolina? Did you get paid? I did? Sometimes? We Uh we had four owners in one season. I think two of the owners paid. It was always a little bit late, but yeah. The cool thing about that, though, is how how punks were you when you did get paid? You know, like the normal jobs, you get paid every month, you know it's coming, but in the A B A

it's like awesome, like am I gonna get paid? Am I not? And when you do, it's just like you get the lottery man. Totally, absolutely only that I remember my my first So I flew back from Israel. I joined the Phoenix team. They're in Detroit that we're playing the Detroit Dogs. I'll never forget this. People asked all the time, like did you feel because I went to I can't My A B A was two thousand and three.

I'm gonna guess yeah, two thousand too. So I've been in Israel right after nine eleven, and um uh, people ask well did you feel safe there? And I tell them all the time. When I landed in Detroit and I went to the hotel we stayed in downtown Detroit, they gave me. The mass gave me twenty bucks and said that's your meal money for the day. And I had to walk to mcdonaldson. Was like a ten minute walk through downtown Detroit, and I felt less safe during

that walk. Then I did it anytime in Israel, but I ate McDonald's and I balled out. We played two games and I got named Todd Bergen, who played at Syracuse. He stopped me. He's like, yo, d G was that man. So we started shaking hands. He's like I was like, he's like, where have you been. I was like, I was in Israel. He's like, what are you as he I was in Lebanon. I was like, how is Lebanon. He's like, oh, man, beautiful women, a lot of weed. I was like, all right, good luck tonight. Anyway. So

South Carolina four Warrior for for four owners. Um, but they also did you guys had the four point the three point or four point play if you stole in the backcourt. Yeah. I never got into that. You know, like, we had a really good team with really good players because of the year of the NBA lockout, and guys just wanted to go play somewhere. Not only NBA players with the whole world kind of froze, you know. Um,

And so we had a real training camp. Best basketball I've ever been a part of, seriously was our training camp. We did two days, like five straight days. We had guys from Kentucky, North Carolina, Texas to Coastal Carolina. And so we get down to the game right the night, right before the game, we're the hard Rock Cafe doing this event for our owner. And George Tuttle, a West Coast guy, I think he's a vanguard right now, was

a cow State Fullerton great coach. George Tuttle. He's like, beer, are you ever going to talk to these guys about the four point player of the three D? I think, George, I don't night kind out of my comfort zone, man, I just want to respect the game. Let's just play. So that night we don't do anything. Well, now is the next day. We're playing the first game franchise history. We got the mayor of Myrtle Beach. She's throwing the ball up. We're in the old Coliseum downtown. Is actually

pretty cool. Right before the game, I mean like right before the game, on the floor, Tuttle's like, man, do you mind if I say something. I was like, go ahead, so totals like, hey, guys, by the way, if you get still in the backcourt, this light is gonna go off right here, and we get plus one for every basket all good luck. Gots just looking at him like what are you talking about? So the game starts and sure enough, it happens like we were a little soft pressed.

We get a steal and that light goes on. You know, it's plus one for every point. But our guys don't know what's going on. But the fans are going crazy. So we get back to the huddle. You know, the other coach called tom out. We've basically gone like six o run but really was like a leven oh round in the A B A. And the players are like, what is going on? Oh my god, I'll explain tomorrow in practice. True story. Okay, so how did you get that?

So then you go to McMurray and how much different a coach are you having been a head coach and then been the system for coach. Now you talked about when you saw the Fortscott when a couple of guys in Portscott you apologize to you which you're a better coach? Did you feel different. Did you feel like completely at ease? How different was it you take over at McMurray. That's a great question. I've always thought about maybe like what did a d S think about when they hire people?

And I think there is a lot of value and the guy that was a head coach at maybe a young age and then grinded it at that level whatever, and then they come back. I think it's just like because you have a reference point for what you did before, then you obviously learned new stuff. I don't know you think about guys like a Steve Fors and success he's having just's just a lot of guys that Christ Jan

There's a lot of guys out there like that. Um back to my situation, I obviously had all this wealth of knowledge from coach Night and Pat for ten years and was itching to kind of get some of that stuff. But really the A B A. I've learned so much from the players, you know, like I'll be driving to the restaurant with you know, Marquees Gainess from TCU and all American I just asking me that what was the

best thing Billy Tubes did or didn't do? So I had all this other information from the pro players since le mc murray. It was just like a big coaching clinic basically just kind of like slept in the office every night. I just I couldn't like I had so many ideas going through my head at that time. And that's really where our philosophy that we're using now kind

of form. It's amazing because having seen your coach in both games and practice, I'm always I'm blown away by a couple of things you you do, you um, you don't request, you demand eye contact every time you're speaking to the team. It seems like you and I don't know if you intentionally do this, you use you know, you used you know, simple words, are phrases continually, you know, kind of to embed them in their head in terms

of how you want them to play. And so it's demanding and you're loud and you're coaching them in practice. But if you're around like all you have to do is be through one practice like, oh, I get what he wants, I'm I understand how he wants to be, how he wants to coach you. Uh, Is that is that kind of what you're talking about? That is that something that you're developing talking to your coaching style. Now, yeah,

I appreciate you saying that. We meaning that. Like I I've always said that coaching is like getting the information to the players and eventually getting it execute on the floor. I think there's a lot of guys who can sitting up hotel booth with you and talk basketball, but then they necessarily can't teach it on the floor. You know, communications, everything.

So we do have a million ideas going through our heads and anything we can anything that can help our players in any way, We're gonna investigate and think about in research and try to try to maybe consider. But eventually when it gets to the court, we wanted to be a simple situation for the players, you know, we want we don't want them thinking out there. We want to react and just playing the game. So we do

have some code words we believe in. You know, whether it's money is what we call when we get an offensive rebounds on money put back or money pick and roll or a money three. The word money something sacred to us. The word total, named after George Tuttle, is like basically our idea of transition, getting back or attacking when we get us still, so keywords like a money or a total. These are things that really is the

foundation of everything we do. Um. All right, So now your attack after incredible success in a short period time at at at Little Rock and you know, you know, first year, you inherit as you've pointed out good players, guys like Keenan from from the previous staff, from Tubby staff. But you go out and grind. You find a kid like like Zaire you know, and Jared Culiver another outstanding fine for you. What's that like to find a kid that other people that some of the services and some

of the big schools might have missed on. Give him a great chance. He takes advantage of it. But then you know, like a year in now of a sudden, you've got to replace him. It's like a gift and a curse. Yeah, this is kind of new to me, you know. Chris Ogden on the staff, we always kind of joked around. We called him Silverspoon because you know, he went to Texas, played Final Four's coach, never left did the one year at Tennessee. And Aggie was the

best about it because he would embrace it. Ever get his feelings hurt and said, hey, guys, I know, like what am I supposed to do not not stay in Texas, and we'd all laugh, but um, we'd try to tell Aggie some stories about Juco or D two or the low majors are struggling, and Argue would always be kind of like interested in those stories, but would always call them silverspoon. Well now, but he'd always told me Beer, there's problems on the other side of the tracks too,

man like, you know, and I'll understand. I respect that, So I just wish I could kind of try to deal with those problems kind of time. Well, be careful what you asked for. You know, there was special We're so supportive of him. We were the sixteenth pick in the draft. You gotta go, that's a no brainer. But now we're on the other end of this deal of in the world where we're trying to figure out how to you know, it's hard to go out and replace his iron may when he declares. So this is the

other side of it. And I have a great appreciation for everybody in basketball, always have. But now I understand a little bit more what the Kentucky's and Villanova's and Texas do when you lose guys from the one and done. There's a whole other side of that, and so you know, I was kind of a fortune teller beer there's other

problems on the other side, and he was certainly right. Um. You know, obviously, recruiting transfers is something you have to do and something that that you've been able to do to be successful. Others in the Big twelve are using it as well. Do you have any any Are there any a couple of things you do other than calling the guy's previous coach? Is there anything you do too to know what you're getting? Like, that's a hard thing

because sometimes these things happen fast. Kid comes, kid comes available, he's interested in tech, You watch some tape, you talk to some people, and then you've got to make a call really really quickly, because sometimes if you don't offer him right away, the kid gets upset and he's like, why didn't you offer me right away? Even if you're doing your due diligence, Do you have a process you go through to know what you're getting? Absolutely? One thing

we really believe in is is the video. You know, I tell the guys all the time, let's don't be YouTube guys like, don't don't bring me a three minute YouTube And tell me about the player. You gotta dig in, you gotta work at the end of the day. Even though we live in this world where everything is easy social media and cell phones, Uber eats, how about that one. I can't get past that one. But it's still value

in his old school work. And so I mean, we're gonna lock up and we're gonna watch every game that could play. So like Matt Mooney coming from us from South Dakota, basically every game map played in his college career. UM. And I think that's important for a lot of reasons, not just our evaluation process, but also I think the player needs to know, like, hey, this coach knows me, he knows of my journey, he knows where I've been,

he knows why I'm transferred. You know. I think that's important. Um. Another thing with us with the transfer is it's just something I really really believe in and it goes back through my whole career, whether it be CHUCO one year guys, D two one year guys, a b A, one week guys, one month guys. I just think that we have an ability. I don't think we're any better than anybody else, but I don't think anybody's better than us, and coaching guys in one year settings, I just believe in and I

think we get relationships with guys quickly. We we understand and we embraced the idea like hey man, you've got thirty one more games guaranteed. This is it. I think there is an art to coaching a guy in a one year setting, and I think we've been really good about it. And I'm not talking about just Texas Tech. I'm talking about way back Fort Scott Community College when I had Jamal Brown for one year, or at Seminal State when we had Will Jones for one year, McMurray,

when we had to Kobe Jackson for one year. I think I think we were were good at that and h I it didn't come off as arrogant and boast little. It's really confidence and belief. I think we'd because it gets when when he got one year to coach a guy, I think we get it. Uh, what's Brandsma doing Because Thomas Brandsman, he followed you around school to school, right Brandsma day. Yeah, So Bransma got done playing in Uh,

the NBA was not calling. He went to the old fields of West Texas and made a bunch of money right out of the gates, lived in a trailer in Pecos, Texas. Was throwing water line out there, made a lot of money. What's what? What is the what is throwing waterline? What is I mean? Listen, I mean I live in southern California, man, I'm from Orange County. What is throwing waterline? Yeah, so basically I don't I'll kind of give you the the junior college version here. Uh, it's like, you know, the

old booms going on out here. So basically, just need you need water, need water to get the dird right, you need water to clean thing, you need water. But there's not a lot of water out here, so beat them. Basically just bring water in from different sources. And so there's so much oil and so much business out there,

you know, it's just like unlimited work. So a guy like Brandsma, who was in our program for five years and understands a little bit about hustling, getting after you know, he just gets out there and sees an opportunity and seizes it. So they're making all sorts of money out of the gates, and then he gets something up. I think he falls in love with a girl from Stephenville, Texas, which was concerning to me because that's where Carlton was

and weird Angel State that was our rival. Brands of your dating the rival, He's like, Coach, you can't fight love, So I understand that. So um, I think with the relationship and with the fact that he made a little bit of money out of the gates, now he's in the real world. He's back and love it. He's working a business job that has a kind of an incentive based salary, which is good for brandsman, because the competitiveness

is still there, but here is. As of lately, he's been poking around the office a little bit more than normal, kind of like look on his face where I think he's maybe thinking about getting the basketball disease back, but doesn't have the balls enough to ask me yet. But I can see in his eyes that I think he's gonna be coming into me pretty soon talking about maybe

getting into coach. And for people who don't know Thomas Brands, he started with you McMurray, followed you to Angelo State, then went to Little Rock and then of course you you know, you took the UNLV job for like it was like ten days, and then the Texas Tech job, which you've told everybody, eat your dream job. Of course, you know it's like a little over an hour from

your from your daughters. Um, you go right back. He followed you to all those stops, and of course, I mean, like, I think the least you could do is is, you know, find a grad assistant role for him, right or something if he wants to if he if he wants to get back in this crazy business. That's one side of the stories. Some people think that you know, we o Thomas. I know I'd be quick to tell you. I mean,

Thomas kind of benefited from our program. To the guy goes from being a division to school paying tuition, so he scored a basket against West Virginia. Can imagine what his nightlife was that night. The guy has benefited from our program too. So there's no doubt that I appreciate everything Thomas is gone. But I think Thomas would be the first to tell you appreciates what the program is given him to. I mean, this girl from steven Ville,

Doug is not bad looking, you know. I mean Thomas, Thomas's life is going in the trajectory, and I would like to think of our program had a little bit to do with it. Uh, that's that's that's a beauty. That's an absolute beauty. All right. Last thing, Um, we're waiting on these new n c A rules to determine what's open period. It's not open period. You're you and your staff. You guys are old school grinders, right like you just you want to go watch kids play, You

want off from a scholarship. You don't pay kids, you don't change your grades. Like that's kind of the the easy baseline rules to it. If I put you in charge, would that just be simply the rules? Do we do? We need other periods? So that guys around campus like, how would you do it? If they said, hey, Chris, you've coached at all different levels of college basketball. You know the right way to do it, how would you

do it? I don't think there's anything wrong with the game now, though I think, like, obviously we have some problems, but everybody has problems. The business world has problems. I mean, I I still go back to the fact that we have a great game for that into a tournament and Final four is simply the best. Um. College basketball produces leaders and good husbands and good men. I mean, it's

I love our game. It's beautiful. Do we have flaws, of course, but every thing as far as I think, with the recent FBI do and all that, it brings light to some of that stuff. But I you know, I think there's another million good positive stories out there as well. I know this. Two coaches are gonna just you can change the rules from three weeks to two to no April to May. But like, eventually, we're all basketball guys and we're gonna just in my big view

of things. And nobody asked me ever, but you are, so I'll take advantage of it. I just think you gotta put the control of the game back in the college coaches hands. And to do that, you gotta let the college coaches be with the players. Go repeat the players, spend time with them. But it's crazy to me that I can only work with my guys two hours a week in the summer. The I mean, and look and and as you know, and people, I'm sorry to cut you off, but like this idea well twenty hour week

or two hours in the off season. Like look, if if you do too much, you're gonna lose the player anyway, So you have to measure how much how much you do, and you can't. And as much as people say, well, you're gonna kill a kid and working them out, like, no, you're not. You're gonna He's gonna be in the gym regardless.

Why not be in the gym under the watchful eye of a guy who's been doing it like you for years and knows how to take a player from point A to point C. Right, I mean, doesn't that make sense? It does to me. And then when you don't let the coaches work with the players, that's where the outside people come in. And I don't blame the players, like I mean, like Jared Culver is going to get the gym four or five hours a day, seven days a

week in the summer. That's who he is, is his d n A. And I can work with him two of those hours and the other hours and he's still gonna be in the gym. So I just don't understand it. I think you. I would trust the Bill Sells, Coach Williams and Coach Huggins. I would put the game in Tomzzo's hands. That's what I would do, because I think at the end of the day, all of us coaches, you know, are are are doing this for the guys man like what we are like. I'm not convinced there's

like a lot of bad guys in our business. I just don't believe that. I think most coaches love their players. They want to win, and they're gonna and they're gonna work their guys accordingly. So that's my big, big picture of things. I don't know why they don't just put it in the coach's hands. I mean, maybe I'm not in the room, I understand, but why wouldn't you get coaches though, and coach self and Coach Williams and Coach

Huggers and coach Krueger. Why wouldn't you get these guys in the room and asked them, Hey, what does the game need to me? It's that's simple. But you know you're talking to a guy that you know lived around there BC average. Um, I said the last thing. I lied one more. Um. You guys came so close against Nova. I mean, you guys did the best job against them defensively.

You just you miss drives, you miss finishes, and I know they look they do a great job of bumping it with their lower body, and and and you're playing so hard defensively against all the different stuff they do that I think that and the pressure takes takes away from some of the shooting. But as you self assess, is there anything you come out of that lead a game thinking you could have done personally better? Yeah, you

get it. The one that is finishing. Um. I think the noh did a great job by keeping their upper bodies extended with an not found lower body. My poppies and time to time. But to me, that's good, it's good coaching. We had seven drives in the second half and we uh we we went over seven. You gotta make a couple of those. You gotta draw a foul and a couple of those. And you know, look, we're at no excuse program. Some people talk to me about

deficiating that game. I'm not buying that. I mean, we we just got to get to the point where we make those guys call those files. Um. But really, and we've already tried to embrace that. We started in the spring and it saw them working on finishing around the basket one ft two feet lower upper more than ever um. And then just I I do think we were ready to play that night A lot of people say, well, is it just because Villanova had been in that moment

y'all haven't. I'm not buying that either. We were, we were relaxed, we were ready. We just didn't. We just didn't play well enough offensively. We held him to thirty three percent shooting. If you'd told me before the game we could do that, I totally see in San Antonio. But we just couldn't manufacture enough offense. Um. But ultimately, you gotta get Villanova for credit. It was so hard to score against. Maybe the best defense we played against

all your was Villain. Yeah, and it's I mean, obviously for you. It's one thing for anybody to get to the final four, but to you to get to the final four in the state of Texas at Texas Tech would have been would have been incredible. But without without those, without a loss, you know it doesn't, uh not. Sometimes there's more to learn from a loss there is from a win. Hey, you've been more than gracious with your time.

I know you've gotta figure out. I know you gotta figure out what you want to do with Brandsma, if you want to add them to staff, I know you gotta you gotta send me more videos of Sean Sutton, uh, you know, walking around and uh and and forgetting things in his room. I appreciate you joining us, and I look forward to catching up with you in person. Really really kind. That's All Ball, the All Basketball podcast here on the Herd Podcast Network. I hope you enjoyed, Chris Beard.

We'll have another conversation for you next week. Thanks so much for joining us. Don't forget to listen to The Doug Gotlie Show three to six Eastern talking to three Pacific on Fox Sports rated, the I Heart Radio app or Serious XM channel eighty three and download subscribe a rate Houbor