Final Four final thoughts; Tony Bennett's title winning adjustments; Michigan St. Associate HC Dane Fife on Sparty's Final Four run

Remember too, what is it to download, subscribe and to rate our podcast? Because I don't think it helps me financially, but it helps my podcast rank ratings or whatever. Um, and the downloads have been great. Listen. I'll leave the final four with this. There was seventy six thousand six two people. That was great basketball four amazing stories. I don't know how Auburn got to where they should have gone to the national championship without h mckeeky, but they

probably should have, right. Uh. Virginia is the national champion, coming from losing to Maryland Baltimore County to winning an S championship amazing. And then the way in which they

won the last three games. Uh, Michigan State losing Josh Langford, losing two pros, Heck nic Ward getting hurt, and then winning the Big Ten, the Big Ten Tournament, beating Duke, going to a final four and coming back and having a ball in the air down three chance to tie the game late incredible and uh and then Texas Tech who lost four starters. And like I think the world

of Chris Beard. I would only say this with with Chris Beard, if I could, I could make one change, I would have taken out Odossi after he made the free throw to put him up three. I know they switched five all year long, but he gets beat and then I don't know why Cover you know, leaves the best player on the floor in the corner open for a jump shot instead of given up the easy two. They would have had a one point lead. But they're college kids. This happens, and um I thought ultimately it

cost them. Obviously, there were some calls that went the way of Virginia. Um I. Also, I'm gonna play for you something that you might find interesting that this was Tony Bennett on my radio show talking about a conversation he and I had after the college basketball season last

year when they lost to Marylyn Baltimore County. You bring up Key and he did have a huge championship game, but I also think it speaks to you and your ability to read the game on the fly because Key struggled, you know a little bit with with their size, with their length, and really they're just older guys, right, He's a kid, They're they're grown men. And I thought you made uh and they kind of change their line up. They went to a little bit of a small ball lineup,

and it it caused you to change. Was that was that part of your plan um to play Key that much in the championship game or is that something you've felt as the game went on. I felt that as the game went on. And Doug, I'm gonna give you some credit. You and I had a conversation. You know, we go back so many years. You know, um our fathers were both you know, legendary coaches who have poured so much into us. And after last year's UNBC game,

you know, you and I talked. I can't remember if we did an interview or not, but you talked and you challenged me and encouraged me that you know, obviously, like everyone would grow from this game, but you know, can you can you find ways when the tournament comes to play differently even through the year, try different things,

whether it's offensively or defensively, um or lineup wise. And I remember that conversation and I and I knew we had to do that because you know, obviously we were good last year and DeAndre Hunter allowed us to play small, and then when DeAndre got hurt in the n c A tournament before that, we couldn't we didn't have that four guard lineup. Well. This year, when Braxton and Key got eligible, I knew at times we're gonna be able to play Key has a five and Ray as a

four or vice versa, and a real small lineup. And then against Perdue, we needed to go big with salt and and mom Andy, so you kind of challenge me. We added some things and I really tried to think hard about that, and I thought in tournament runs, you need to be able to have the versatility to mix

things up offensively or defense. We used the offense against um Texas Tech in the championship game that we hadn't hardly used all year because they ran a different kind of defense with the way they forced it on the side and switched, and so you have to have those things ready in those situations. So yeah, you know, look, I don't want to get into fouls. By the time you download this podcast, you probably forgot about the blow

by both the play by play of different things. I will say this, and I'm I'm sure I'm annoying to a lot of people who I'm friends with in college basketball, text back and forth with ironically all four of these teams. I worked a little bit for Bruce Pearl. I know Stephen really well. Uh, Dane Fife is gonna be our guest and coaches, Um, I communicate with them often throughout the season. Tony Bennett don't communicate as much with but we go way way back. My dad, of course, was

the coach at u W Milwaukee. His dad's a Wisconsin legend. He's always been super kind to me. Um. At some point I'll have him on this pod and we'll talk about how Clay Thompson became a Washington State Cougar. I'm forgetting. Oh, and then Chris Beard has to form local and state assistant coaches and head coach Sean Sean Sutton on the staff, and I become pretty close with with coach Beard as well.

So I know all of these guys and so I'm probably annoying to them and that I do text them and call them and give you it's not giving my two cents, sometimes another set of eyes. It's valuable. And I always tell him like, hey, listen, if you don't if I don't know I'm talking about fine. But what I told Tony Bennett, what I encouraged Tony Bennett to do, I was like, look, I think your style of play is fine. I think you're going to get to a fun four. I think you've got a chance to in

a national championship. But I think your percentage chances increase if you continue to add to your offensive repertoire. Remember, here's the guy who played overseas Um, here's the guys playing in the NBA. And it's not for lack of knowledge, it's just you can't simply depend on blocker mover and not have other tricks in the back. They went to some ball screen continuities. This year, they've put in more

NBA sets. Of course, I think most of the college basketball world loves one of their elevator plays that they ran um But more than anything, I encouraged him. And this is just a general philosophy I have in life, but especially in sports, which is, hey, the goal of a team when they're preparing for you is to make you play left handed, make you do something that you might be uncomfortable doing, and so and oftentimes coaches will fall back on, well, you know, it's just a bad

matchup for us. It's just a bad matchup. That's what it was. We lost because it was a bad matchup, and that's reasonable. Sometimes there's certain styles, certain teams where you just don't match up well against. You know, you just got limitations based upon your personnel. That's gonna happen.

On the other hand, I remember I was I was covering I don't want to tell you the team's name, but I was covering a team this year and at the end of a game, they ran a play for a shooter, for a left handed shooter, and he came off of It's one of those players I call it the nail. When you drive to the base in instead of throwing the hammer, you come back behind you and the shooter from the top of the key comes to

shoot the basketball. Well, they ran that play and left handed player shot fakes, and even though the to go to the right was open, he wanted to come back to a strong left hand. He went back to the defense. It wasn't as open. They lose the game. And so when I when I talked to with with the coaches afterwards, I was like, hey, just question, why didn't you run that to the other side of the court. And they're like why. I was like, well, this particular player is

left handed. He likes hurling off the screen, you know, moving to his left, and then if he shot fakes, he likes one trouble to his left, that's a that's a shot for him. He's like, well, we we had never had though that that lineup in that position of a game to run that play. And I thought to myself, well, whose fault is that right? And again this is the general philosophy have which is like, especially a coach, like, so this is why I told told told I do it.

This sounds really arrogant. I didn't win him a national championship. I didn't tell ma anything profound that he probably didn't already know and challenge himself. But this is a thought that I have, which is, you know, look, challenge yourself to sometimes create artificial adversity. Take a look at a different lineup, Take a look at guys at different spots, not just in practice, not just in scrimmages, not just

in exhibition games, but in real games. Take a legit look at a small lineup, Take a legit look at a big lineup, the three point guards out there at once, press what does it all look like? Because you you don't know in a one and done scenario or playing for your league championship, how somebody's gonna try and make you play, or what type of matchup may ultimately expose

what you normally want to do. And if you don't have a second gear or a third gear, or you know, a different if you don't have that, then what you do can become stale, and people spend all year figuring out whoa what do you do? And how do we do it? How do we they say, how do we stop them from scoring? And how do we score against them? You know, I understand the pragmatism to hey, listen, I just want to win this game and don't win this game, but sometimes you gotta play the long game. You gotta

develop a bench. You gotta develop a small line up. You gotta develop a big line up. You gotta develop a pressing line up. You gotta develop a what do we do against the zone, and what do we do

when we can't do that against the zone. Because my you know, my best shooter or my guy bet who was best in the high post, he's in foul trip, or he's sick, or he broke a pinky finger or whatever, and so yeah, I encouraged him to run more some more ball screen stuff, because like Dane Fife is going to tell us, kids grow up learning to play off ball screens, and yet we're retraining them when they get to college to teach him how to play motion game.

At some of these schools, you gotta sometimes play with some of their strengths. Tony did that, But I I'm I. I would readily admit I'm super annoying as a fan and a friend and a basketball guy to so many of these coaches. And I text them suggestions and things that I think. We have long conversations, and generally it's to continue to watch and evolve. And yeah, you always

have your base. You always have your core ethics. You always have your offense, you always have your defense, but there are gonna be times in which you gotta change. I believe bo Ryan would have won a national championship had he had a different way of playing the ball screen against uh Tias Jones and Duke. But they always kind of flat hedged and sunk and Tia Tias Jones hit jump shot after jump shot jump shot, and people can tell me, well, it's the officiating with Duke, Like, no,

it wasn't. Tyas Jones just made shots because Wisconsin played true Pac line defense and unlike Virginia. Virginia plays Pac line principles, but they hard hedge ball screens. So that that was my conversation with Tony Bennett. And you can hear that conversation. It's entirety if you're downloaded part of the Doug Gottlip Show. All right, let's get to our guest of the week. His name is name five. He's longtime assistant Michigan State. It's also a dear friend of mine.

Uh It was a tremendous player. Dad was a coach. Dad is a coach, and I just think his his story is a really really interesting one and it kind of tells the story a little bit about Michigan State basketball this year. Um. Okay, so let's let's start. Um. I always love to do this. You grew up playing basketball where? Well, like like, did you have a park? There was a gym? Like your your first basketball memory

is where Larkston High School gym. My dad was high school coach, and I just go to practice every day and shoot on the side all day. Okay, So, uh did the side hoops have fan backboards? Did they have would backboards or regular glass backboards? I grew up on glass backboards. That's a nice that's a nice gym right there. To have side backboards that are nice glass, square, square backboards. What what would uh you need? Your dad obviously a longtime coach. I mean you even have a kid plays

for you now, played for your dad. What's he like my dad? Yeah? As a coach, Well, he's nuts. He grew up in the post World War Two era where the heroes were General Patton, Hey guys and Howard Um. You know, the the the Armies and the Navy's got a lot of good athletes. Um, and so he was he his favorite coach was probably at the time coach Night, coach Bob Knight and so um, I wouldn't say he was. He didn't use a lot of follow language or are

really yelling at people's faces, but he was. He was very structured, very organized, and he believed in playing with maximum effort every second you're out on the court. He always told me if I don't care what you play, I think he did care. But if you're gonna play, you're gonna do it your best, whether it's checkers or basketball. And and he held me to that. And my brothers, um, now your brother Duke and just see you no, um he not only he has better name than you, such

a good name that that one. It's memorable, right. And he played in Michigan, and you know, growing up Doug and was like, you know like that the negative nicknames were like Doug slug or a Doug the little bug. And I was like, no, no, no, call me Dugan. Like there was a time when I was like, actually it's more Duke, go by Dugan. They're like, no, no, that's Dugan. Five. If you're not, you're not Dugan. Um, what uh what's it like to have it? Like? Was he a nice big my big brother Greg who's an

assistant coach organ State. Um, he was, he was. He would vacillate between being an awesome big brother and a terrible big brother. I think sometimes I was the friends that he would keep by, like, Hey, we're gonna go meet at Jordan Elementry and shoot hoops. Meet us there. And then I go there and there literally be nobody there right just to get rid of me or lock

me out of the house. Um pants me when we were in our our friends pool and throw my my shorts up on the roof and then invite other people over. So what was your big brother like? Rotten? And uh, because I'm sure there's young people listening, Um, I would say that probably until Dugan went off to college. He was six years older than I was. Uh, he was probably the worst big brother that that a little brother

could have. And I was the baby Jeremy who's uh, we're all three years apart, so Jeremy's the middle child and and but Dugan was the worst big brother up until about his nineteenth birthday. Even then, he came home and during mid season and his freshman year at Michigan and we were out shoveling off the basketball court in our backyard. It was just a small court. We shoveled it off and I hit him in the lip on accident playing him one on one, and he pushed me

down and rubbed my face in the snow. And I was probably about thirteen at the time. But um, there wasn't a day that I didn't plan to somehow make Dugan disappear in my in my in my youth. It's awesome. Um, well, if if Coach Night was your dad's hero, and it's interesting because I don't know if you know this. So my dad was a walk on in the house state, a JV player during the same here when Bob Knight was there, and um, they were kind of on again,

off again friends. But he also looked up to Coach Night. And although Coach Night you didn't really recruit me, it wasn't really my dad never wanted me to play for him, not because of how he was, but more because of how he played. Like that wasn't But why didn't you can go play for him? Well, Dugan, Um, my dad played at Michigan. Um he was with Rudy tom Jonovich and just after Kassie Russell. But my dad played at Michigan and my dad played pro baseball with the Twins

and then came back and was an assistant at Michigan. Ironically, he was on the bench when Michigan lost in and in the seventy six National Championship. UM. And so when Dugan was young, Dugan was born in seventy four, UM, he experienced Michigan basketball up close and personal. And so when he was young, four or five, six years old, until my dad stopped coaching at Michigan, he was he

was those those were his heroes. So you know that was ingrained in him when he was really young, and we just we always went to Michigan football games, Michigan basketball games. My dad was good friends with Bill Freeder, and so I think it was just a foregone conclusion that Dugan was going to go to Michigan and there was never a doubt on on anybody else was exception to maybe Michigan State, maybe Stanford. UM, I don't think

that Indiana recruited him very hard, if you want the truth. Okay, So then what about you, Uh, you're a big score in high school, right and UM, I'm getting and because of because you're the respect that your dad had, because of the because of your brother being a hell of a player, like it wasn't you were very heavily recruited. Why did you go to ee you? Well, it's funny because the very first VHS tape that I that we ever,

that I ever watched. I remember getting our VCR when we're in uh Or Lady, but they used to have to press the button down. You used to have to hold the there was the the it was like, I don't know, I don't know how you consider those buttons, but you actually had to press the button down right. The record button was always the last button you had to pressed down right. And then the remote control had a chord, so we did we did get one with

a remote, but it had a court. Um. So, so the very first VHS tape that I watched was Michigan versus Indiana for the Big Tent Idol and this was Freeder versus Night. Um. I think Roy Tarpley was a senior, Steve Alford was a junior. But anyway, I just remember listening to Billy Packer and Brett Musburger talk about Bob Knight with such interest, and it was fascinating just how much they revered Coach Night and his personality and Steve Alford UM and Michigan ended up killing him, but it's

stuck in my mind. And then came the movie Hoosiers and that representative everything that my hometown pretty much was small school, single school, UM, just me and my friends, just dream of winning a state championship. That was my dream, winning a state championship for my dad. And so you know, either way, I think that, Uh, Indiana started recruiting my sophomore year. Dan Docket's ironically was the first Indiana coach

to start recruiting me. But it was just a dream of mine to uh, you know, when I was young, to just go play basketball at Indiana for Coach Night. And Coach Night I viewed as was similar to my dad. His offense, his defense, his principles. My dad talked about him a lot. UM. I felt like, you know, at an alternate universe, Dougan probably would have went and played for him too, if Michigan didn't exist. Because Coach Knight represented what what the game was to hard work, um championships, um,

doing it right. You know, there wasn't a lot of a lot of cheating going on in his program. It felt like we were just going to get an honest environment that was going to make you better. And that's what it That's ultimately what it was even when I went there. Okay, so you show up first day on campus at Indiana. What do you remember. Well, my roommate was Luke Wrecker and Kyle Hornsby from Louisiana. Kyle Hornsby was a well just Uh he was a country boy,

and Luke Wrecker was was a sophomore. But the first thing that I saw was coach and night. Uh Silver Lincoln. It's the first thing I remember. And then uh moved into my apartment. And then we played Open Jim and I was fearless and and here I am a McDonald's all American thinking I'm really good and and uh, what made me good is that I understood the game. I felt like I was way advanced. And you know that as a son of the son of a coach, it's a blessing and a curse. You know, we are advanced,

but then we think we know everything and we're stubborn. Um, but I've gotten where I was by playing hard, playing with effort, playing tough and soil. The first day of Open Jim, I ended up squaring off with a with a six eight two d and thirty five pounds, uh, twenty three year old named William Gladness. We never we nearly got him in Oklahoma State. I mean he was a junior college transfer. We nearly got him in Oklahoma State. We always like, we're like, man, we get William Gladness,

will be all right? Yeah, and and uh, you know, I was always thankful that guys broke it up before there were any constance prone But I oh I did was set a screen on him. Now will Is is who's who's passed away? But um, great guy. But interesting enough about will Is. When you'd set a back screen on him, you know, screen him from behind, you had to be careful because he had a bullet lodged in

his spine. And so apparently I hit that bullet, hit something and turned around and he just said, gosh, that wasn't even as as dirty as I could be, will But uh he said, you hit my bullet. You hit my bullet, and and and uh so that was what I remember is my first day on campus, is the whole team ready to fight me out of the gate. Um, you guys, I mean, you guys had a pretty good team, right yet, Mike Lewis, you had Kirk Haystein. Um, we were loaded. We had a kind of talent. We just

didn't defend it very well. We had first rounders. Luke Recker would have been a first rounder. He ended up transfer and as you remembered it, Arizona and then to Otowa. Lewis who is the all time assistant leader. Um A J. Guyton, who was a McDonald or who was who was an All American. Um, Kirk Hasten was a red shirt freshman my freshman year. We were a bit young. I mean Lewis Is Lewis and Guyton were older. But um, we just we we didn't have a group that that we

didn't have a great team. We had a lot of good parts, we just didn't have a great team. And I think because, um, unfortunately, there were a lot of Uh there are a lot of agendas, not necessarily from the players, but from people who were attached to the players that prevented us from really being a great team. You. Um, you guys lost in two thousand of pepper Dye. And I know that not just because I can read history,

but I was there. It was in Buffalo. We thought we were gonna play you, and um, I you know, like again, I only played against Indiana once. Here's my here I'll give you. I'll give you the all my Indiana stories I got, uh one. Charlie Miller stayed at my house for a summer, maybe two summers. He obviously proceeded you at I use for people don't remember. He's a wing, left handed wing from Miami, played for Frank Martin in high school and so he played with US

in AU before he signed Indiana. And um, so I went to the was at the university. It was the under eighteen and under twenty one like University Games teams or whatever World Games team tryouts in Colorado Springs, and I met Brian Evans and he told the greatest, most unbelievable Bob Knight stories. I mean, just had a howling, cackling whatever. Um. Anyway, then my freshman year, we get ready to play Indiana at Notre Dame. And the year

before Notre Dame had beaten Indiana in South Bend. And I think, don't hold me to this one, because I haven't looked at the besets. I think they hit something like fifteen threes, which at the time like even now as a ridiculous number, but the time was unheard of, and as you know, coach Knight was very It wasn't until Texas Tech and late in his career where he embraced the three point shot um. And so he basically thought it was bullshit basketball. And he told everybody, you know, basically,

Notre Dame beat us on bullshit basketball. So we knew they were. He was gonna be pissed because he didn't forget a game. And uh, I, you had played Yukon and the championship of the Great Alaska Shootout and you can kicked the dog piss out of him, beat him by like forty right. So we go down and they hadn't played in like a week they got back from Alaska, and I'm sure they practiced like five times a day. Right, you probably kicked them out of the locker rooms some

ship like that. And we go down and the night before they had just put a new court down um in the arena, okay, and in what is an alumni hall or whatever, they they just put a new assembly all. I'm sorry, there's two assembly halls, right, there's Illinois and and I you so assembly hall and so we go in and like, if you've been and I know it's been redone, this beautiful now. It wasn't beautiful then, but it was just it was gigantic. It was the biggest arena I had ever been in at that point in

time in life. It's like our first road game ever. And the court was springing as hell and everybody is throwing down bam bam bam. We're like, man, we're gonna be good. And I was like, yeah, I don't know we're gonna be that good. So the things I'll never forget about Coach night, um is you're warming up and everybody and you're looking down the other end and there's the candy striped pants and there's a damn and the band is playing. You're like, damn, I'm playing Indiana on

National TV. Holy shit. And then out walks Bob Knight. And I had met him a couple of times before, but you forget he's a big gass dude, right. He was like I don't know, six three six four, and and he had that the red sweaters. And then you know, all the fans have the they want to be, want to be Bob Knights had the red sweaters and then he would always have a he never he never came out by himself. He already had a couple of dudes

with him, right, he rolled deep for a for a coach. Yeah, so he comes out and and like literally everybody stops, like we're in layup lines and dudes stop and look like there's coach night, you know, silver hair. He comes by and he shakes John Cloud's hands and go sit down whatever, and you're like, you know, like it was

at Basketball Royalty at that time. So we're down, go ahead, go ahead, we're down half and I'll never forget like you're go running off the court and you go right by the band and they're playing the fight song right, and then the last part of the fight talking is ah you and like the whole place is shaking and the student section is going, don't comp out, don't come out,

don't come out. And I remember going the locker room going like you know, guys, they say, we don't have to come out in the second half, like we're cool, we're good. So here, here's here's the here's here's here's the story. I tell you all the time. So, um, what was the big dude's name from Texas ship who's a junior at the Yes first time, huh Andre Paterson? Right? So um, we get our ass beat and I play Okay,

we go down back just out bad. I roll into my dorm at Dylan Hall and I flip on ESPN and it's right about to hit like the Sports Center guest, then DNA, are you ready for Sports Center N? So in in somewhere in the second half, I had driven in and tried to shoot a floater over Andre Patterson. Part of it was it was probably a little bit of a weak floater. Part of it was it was at Indiana, so it's goaltending. I feel it wasn't called.

And part of it is if you've been to Assembly Hall, you know they have like three rows of stands that are low, and then there's the wall, and then there's the second and then there's the second level, and then the third level was so far out there, I don't even know how you see the floor. He didn't block my shot. He caught my shot, and I felt like through it in the direction of John Cougar Mellencamp, who was sitting there and and and it was at insult to injury when he caught the ball and threw it

out of bounds. He goes, no, right, know, I get back right remember, like grew up dreaming of like love Bob Knight, dreaming of playing maybe at four against Bob Knight. My dad has notes, copious notes from West point of going to his you know, and telling stories about the US. His jump shot was called the blue dart when he played at Ohio State, Like I know everything about Bob Knight. And we get an as we catch an ass with and by like forty at IU and are you ready

for sports? Enter Dan, Dan, Dan, No, And there's my shot. There's my flow. Do you see forty four from Notre Dame Gottlieb and Andre Patterson's face laughing as he throws a shot in the direction that that's my US story. Anyway, go ahead, you're the lead. I was leading. I was lead. They did not bury the lead. Anyway. You're saying about coach Knight, the thing, the thing that stuck out about you.

You mentioned how big he is, and when I was well, I committed to Indiana, okay, and then he came up to visit me sometime late fall and were still in football season, just may have just finished. But we're making the transition to basketball season. But I was a football player too, and it's probably my first love. But I had interest in playing QB at Indiana. Cam Cameron was the coach at the time, and I said, coach, you

know I'm coming. Just back then, if you signed in the November early period, you um, I couldn't play football, that fault. But if you signed in the late period, then you could. Weird rule. But I said, I'd like to sign in the spring so I have an option to playing football. And there was just dead silence. He looked at the ground, he looked up. He pulled up as he always wore elastic band pants. I remember noticing that.

But he pulled up a chair and he lifted his pant leg up to his knee and he said, you see these pants. You see this lake? Yeah, yeah, coach, you see this calf. Now that's a damn football cast. I'm a football player. This is a football leg. I look at your scrawny legs, I said, yep. I said, I'll tell you what you come to Indiana. You're coming to play basketball, and that's it. And I looked at my dad, who was in the athletic director by coach at the time, he didn't have much to say, kind

of kind of left me out to dry. I said, Okay, sounds good, coach, So needless to say, I signed in the early November signing period. But I remember that leg that he was definitely that the leg of a tight end, maybe a defensive tackle, but he was a big fellow. Um so you beat by Pepperdine. That was his last

game as head coach. What what was it like to be a what was like to be a player during what was just a crazy turbulent time at IU, Because again, like the lens we look at Coach Night now is so different than the various lenses of his time at Indiana, like eighties, early nineties, like he would have run for governor unopposed even an exactly but Indiana, I mean, you would like nine outside of Purdue fans, like of people are going to vote for for for Coach Night. Obviously

it wasn't he wasn't viewed the same. But like you guys still had good players, and you still had good teams. And then all of a sudden, the the Neil Read video appears and and the interviews and all that stuff that that went bad what was that? What do you remember about that time? Well, I always tell people now, you know, mostly when you catch Coach Night in his worst moments, they're usually in a game, and that's that's

the big stage, but behind the scene. And I'd say for the most part, being very complimentary and practice pretty easy to work with. In practice, his frustration was all about effort. When when there was a problem, it was usually about effort. It wasn't about a turnover, a miss shot. Ah, it wasn't about anything that that you could control. Yeah, you couldn't control. And so mostly complimentary, but they put the zero tolerance on them. Okay, in the spring they

as in the administration. I don't have any problem with that. You know, if you've got a problem with somebody, you gotta you gotta deal with it the way you see fit. And I was it fair enough? Fair? I don't know, but they did. So we roll into early September and I remember on the I woke up Sunday. I woke up Sunday morning and my roommate had called and he said, hey,

they're gonna fire Coach Night. So this was after he grabbed a student's arm and addressed told him to calm, Mr Knighter Coach Night, but um, so we drove up in Indianapolis for the trustee meeting. President um Brand announced that he was firing him. And it was funny because we drove back to Bloomington's and Edward Or came over to our house from Espnum met with us and he can't remember any cats. I still to this day talked

to Andy Katz about that day. Andy Kats was there, Um there were just that there were so many things, and then the students march on the President's house at the time, and h I walked over that to that just to see what was going on, and uh, it was. It was chaos. I mean you'd think there was a two going on. And to see the passion and the anger and the frustration that that people had for for this this figure. Um it was incredible. And I know

myself and my teammates. I remember being in the locker room Jared Jeffreys Ah Sunday night when Coach Knight came back thanked Coach Night, and I remember Coach Night going into the to them a little area outside the locker room and overheard him tell a friend of his that he couldn't face us as in, I can't do this. I don't I don't want to have to face these guys.

I don't want to leave him. And you saw you're able to see Coach Night vulnerable, able to see how much we mattered, how much the school mattered, and right or wrong, it was his time he left. Um but it was pretty um it was pretty emotional because a lot of us had had dreamed of growing up and playing for that man, whether it's Indian or not, that was my dream. And I was upset, I was frustrated, but um we uh it was a pretty uh surreal time for a bunch of eighteen to two year old

kids that didn't know which end was up anyway. Okay, so what what happened was there? Did you guys get together? Because because um, I just think that the leadership of that moment is is fascinating and um like, robviously it was it was today you guys would all be in the transfer portal, but that it wasn't that way then and somebody had to have dudes over. Like I I

heard a story Brian Evans. I never remember that. I never forget the story that, uh, you know, one year he kicked him out He would always kick you guys out of locker room, put all your ship in the hallway right and you wouldn't have they wouldn't have practice, but you're supposed to run practice on your own own. And his car and his wife would come down and talk to Coach Knight loves you guys like it was like a It was. It was just one of the

things that he would do. But that sometimes in order to get away, you know, they go they go to a manager's house and all the players would hang out together, and they there was some tape and you tell me if there's real, there's some tape of Coach Night getting run over in practice where you know, you're transitioning from offense to defense, and he forgot and he got caught up in the like the whitewash, and and he's like, man,

I'm telling you, we'd have a bad day. We go to a manager's house and we watched that tape over and over and over again him getting run over and laugh our ass off. So so what do you remember about, Like, how did you because you guys stayed together and you end up going to a final four, I know what, everybody didn't stay. How did it how did it play out? Well, I was transferred back to Michigan State and I went over to coach Knights maybe Monday, so we got fired

on September tenth, so probably September eleven or twelve. I remember being in his kitchen and just saying, coach, look of UM, you know, if if, if they're not keeping the rest of the staff, then then I'm going to go because I don't want to play for a new staff when we've heard rumors of different coaches coming in and um, you know, I wasn't sure what was going to happen with the rest of the team in terms of who's coming and gone. We'd all a lot of

us said we were going to transfer. I think some of them were bluff and I at the time wasn't because I wanted I was okay, I was at piece with coach Knight being removed, but I didn't want to lose the rest of the staff, that being Mike Davis and John Treeloor. Pat Pat Knight was the other assistant.

I assumed he was leaving. UM, so coach Knight seemed to think that, um, they weren't going to retain Mike Davis or who's at University Detroit now or John treelo Or who's a scout with Phoenix UM coach, and I didn't think they were going to retain them either, so they said, well, help me transfer. And it's funny because there's so many coaches that come up that have them up over the years that coach Night actually reached out to and uh, but I said, can you help me transfer?

And he said you sure this is what you want to do? And I said, yeah, I don't. I don't want to be a part of a new staff and I'm not sure who's who's going to stay, and it doesn't really matter, you know, I don't want to be here party. I don't want to change things. So you know, I went back. I left right away and announced I

was transferred. Meanwhile, Jared Jefferies comes up to me and says, well, hey, you know, I'm hearing that they might keep Mike Davis, John True and coach Davis and coach Trielor and let them do an interim just like oh Man. So a long story short, I decided I was going to stay, and Kirk Hasten stayed and Jared Jefferies was a freshman that year. UM Tom Coverdale. We had a we had a really good core group that you know, over the course of two years, became a damn good team even

though haste and left. It was funny because Hasten was really instrumental in me staying and and not that I mattered. I averaged five points a game, but um, you know, I was just, I guess a vet and they needed some vets. But Hasten went pro after that year, and Haston was the one that talked me into staying and I said, we're gonna win a national championship in the next two years. Since when Haston left, I didn't speak to him for a whole summer. But I guess looking back,

you've got a chance to be drafted. I think it was fifteen or sixteen to the Charlotte Hornets. Probably should have left, but um, yeah, we we had a good court group. Jared Jefferies covered Oh Kyle Hornsby, Um Jared Otle, we were. We were. I don't have any stories like like Brian Evans does about rallying over the our coach getting run over, but um, I do think that, uh you know, we we rallied on Coach Night's behalf and because he was still important to us and still is.

And you combine that with with Coach Davis and John tree Lor putting us in positions to succeed. It was it was a great recipe. But the other thing it was, it was it was some guys that were committed, committed to winning, committed to Indiana. If you could the three things you mean, give me three things that Coach Night taught that you believe into this day. You know what?

I think that even as I worked for coaches. Oh, the one thing you can't allow as a coach is is UM is a bad practice and a bad practice from a team. But it usually starts from somewhere. Does it start from your leadership amongst your players, does it start from a player or does it start where? Where does it stem from? And Coach Knight would never let up. It was a relentless pursuit of of excellence. And if there was a bad practice from a player UM, he

dealt with it. He dealt with it in a way that that would typically make sure that it wouldn't happen again. And uh so there was no let up. And I remember being in practice and it was like a trance because you had to be focused. You had to be intense, you had to know what you were doing. And when practice ended, it was it wasn't relief, but it was what did I just do for the last two hours?

Because of that? You know, for for a one or eighteen year old to maintain focus for for that two hours, for that long period of time is I don't think it could happen today, and it barely could happen back when I played in the early to late nineties, early two thousand's. Yeah, it's interesting because we used to our practices were long and I'll never forget so the old GALLAGHERI but used to have a clock, uh in up you know, behind the stands in one of the end zones.

And remember this is a gym, it's not really an arena, but it used to be a clock. And guys would you know, they're huffing and puff and they'd look up and we didn't. We didn't. We didn't condition, you know, coaches thing. You know occasionally during Christmas break we do some we do some running, and we do running as punishment, but we never did conditioning. Right when I was at that Notre Dame, we can, uh, I thought John McLeod

an interesting way of doing conditioning. He had four quarters of practice and after at the end of every quarter of practice you would do a conditioning drill or two and then get water. That's how he did it, whereas Coach Sutton like, we never did any conditioning. And his whole thing was like, you can make it through my practice. You can make it through a game. And and I I never yet like you'd be on your shorts and

guys that start looking up and we would. Part of the problem was we had a bunch of and I think you guys are the same thing. We had a bunch of smartasses. And you know, you get to like two and a half three hours and be like le Tony rule right and uh and and coach would it would it would without any quay would happen a couple of times the year where he got he'd tell late Pat Noise, one of the guys, who's snake who died in playing crops? He got snake. You go up there,

you cover up that clock. You got a bunch of clock watchers here, you got a bunch of clock But we came here to work. We came. It is the hardest thing you're gonna do when live, you cover up that damn clock, and sure enough there'd be like a white sheet over the clock, and guys are trying to like look through the white sheet, like, man, I think we've been here three hours. Manun this we gotta get

out of here, right. But it's it's really amazing because now if and I don't know what you and and we used to make fun of of Kansas because Kansas, you know, they would dial back their practice a bunch that was Roy Williams thing was like fresh legs. Man, we go, they go like forty five minutes an hour when they get to February and coach, you wouldn't have

any of that ship. And uh, but now I do think you need you're better off going twice a day for an hour and fifteen hour and a half just because guy's attention spans aren't dead long, let alone coaches attention spans aren't dead long. Well, that's right, and I'd say this too. There's a lot more for head coaches to have to do now than than there was. And you know, whether it's recruiting alumni media. Um, oh, and

don't forget about your own family. Um. You just wonder how how a guy like coaches or coach k Uh processes things throughout it out to day. I mean, um, but I'd say the other the other thing that um that I won't forget is we would always wonder what kind of mood um coach Night was in each day. It always varied and it could be there were so many different spots on the on the spectrum that he

could be. But being in this business now, I think it was just his way of of not allowing us to be comfortable and finding things too to keep us on our toes, which isn't out of the ordinary in in um sports or the working world, I don't think. I think good bosses find ways to keep people motivated without driving them away, and those that understand that get better. Those that don't look for excuses. Um. But there there were so many different personalities. When you talk about split

split personality, it just multiple splits. But I think looking back, it's probably you know, the the old method to his madness. And then the third thing was a lot of people. I mean when you think of Coach Night, you think of motion offense, right, I think people do, but there was differently different types of motion. Right you guys would have you know, you'd have the baseline runner, you'd have the triangle right. There was a couple of different times

go ahead. I think you know, we didn't have out of bounds plays either, just guys figured it out. But the attention to detail on the defensive end, I think where Coach Night was was his best. And I think the motion was just a toy. I mean, motion allowed him to coach defense more. And you know, I argue with coaches oh all the time, you know, whenever he talks about how they used to whip us. And I said, now, keep in mind, coach I was for and for against

Michigan State while I was Indiana at Indiana. And he'll even make the comment, well, you know, you guys, you guys were motion and you were hard to prepare for. But you guys, did you guys prepare that much on defense? And I said, coach, there's a reason why we beat you, the mighty Michigan State. I mean, and and that's because it's it's pretty similar to what we do here. But I'd say that he doesn't get enough credit. Coach Night doesn't get enough credit for his defensive preparation and the

way his teams defended. Now in his later years, they struggle. There's a lot of turnover and players and I don't think he was getting the players that he really he needed to. But the defense is something that's underrated as as I look back on coaches career. Okay, so so we we did, I guess for spaceline. We did post

a post double. We worked on we that we call it, you know, ceiling h We would always we would seal off the lane you drove baseline and come over and help and take a chart and trapped that and then whoever was guarding the ball, you were the you were the rotate man, rotate man, or you were the flyer, right, and we work on you know, you know, scrambled drill and out of a double, out of a double team in the low post when the ball's reversed, scramble as well.

But I'll never forget again. One of my first practice of oaklahom State, Um, I I said, coach, um, which which way we forced him? And he's like, what do you mean? I was like, well, we forcing baseline before the middle. It was like neither like noral coach like, where's the help? He's like college man guard his man. I was like all right, coach, that's great. But if he happens to go by me, which way would you prefer he goes by me, to the baseline or to

the middle. Was like, neither of you. He goes by you. The only places you're going to sitting next to me and help me coach, right, it was. It was a little simpler then, right, Like we did have in bounced placement and and I talked about this mile si'mon enjoying enjoined me last week in the pot and he was like, dude, we had three plays like Luke never brought up a white board, Coach Sutton never drew on a white board

or whatever. I understand, But um, you guys did help to the middle, right was it was the help from the middle of the help from the because like the players kind of and the assistant coach like, well, what coach really wants is like you don't want you, but all right, we're gonna help from the baseline. It was almost like whispering, you know, um what what was the general defensive philosophy that was so good? Baseline? It was baseline And it was funny because it just had changed

right around that era. To me, um, a lot of it was metal and then it just had changed to baseline, probably somewhere in the mid nineties or I'm sorry, late eighties and early nineties. Um, before that, I don't think there was defense. And I listened to my dad talked about when he played in the seventies, Um said, we didn't We didn't have defensive principles. Guard your man and do a good job. That was that was that he's sting right there. Uh, and uh, I want you to

turn his ass to the glass. Excuse me. And we're in Arkansas and we had the triplets now Marvin delf and Alvin Robinson, and and we would we we they would get into you when you cross mid court, and we wanted to make that point guard turn his ass to the glass. Brother, you can guard like that. You can play for me anyway. Yeah, there was no. There wasn't anything like, hey, how are we playing this ball screen? Like we're gonna you know who we're gonna We're gonna

ice it, we're gonna trave it like. No, you guard your man? Okay, score, Yes, that's generally good. That's good coaching right there. You know what, I always give my dad crap about going against Rick Mount, who he denies he had to guard him. But Rick Mount got fifty two against him against Michigan and beat him. And uh, that's without that's without three point the three point shot. How does that happen? How does that happen? How does the guy score fifty two points without the three point

shot in the Have you ever seen Rick Mount shooting basketball? Yeah? Yeah, But but do you think Rick Mount would do it do it in today's game? Yeah? See, I don't. And that's not to say that Rick Mount wasn't incredible, but I mean the defense today is a lot different. I'd agree that. Listen. I remember going to Final four's and Rick Mount would do shooting clinics and I was like, Dad, does he ever miss? And He's like, nope, not mean it was I was unbelievable. And then you had in

the three point line. Okay, So, uh, what do you remember about the Final four playing in it? Well? I remember the flag. Okay, this was a year at nine eleven and it's two thousand and two, and I remember the flag okay, and it was it was a lot bigger.

That's the flag that's flying on the World Trade Center near the World Trade Center and it had the burn marks and you could smell it, and they had the firefighters and policemen that were at ground zero, and um, it was it was as powerful as as being in the presence of of of Coach Night or it was just it was. It was an incredible rush and otherwise and we were there. We were there to win the game the games and and again it's for for for

guys that we had a lot of juniors and seniors. Um, the intensity, the focus there there, there wouldn't aside from my kids being born, there's not a better moment. There's not a bigger rush, There's not a bigger um a better time. You know that the eighteen to twenties. You always hear people tell stories, the older people about the good old days. You know, my grandpa passed away, but his eighteen nineteen twenties, World War Two, Normandy other Grandpa, Philippines.

You know, just the time when when you were young, you were you were out from under the umbrella of your parents and it was just an incredible time. In the Final four it was in Atlanta that that year, and you know, there are a lot of great stories that came from it. But ultimately Doug I think you remember the smiles that put on people's faces. And I don't remember much from the games, um, but the smiles that we put on people's faces, especially Indiana, that it

that was real. From the coach night firing, Um, we gave the people from a sports perspective, from a basketball perspective, something to smile about. We probably weren't supposed to be there. I think we were a four seed that year. We beat Duke who had eight first rounders. Um, that's well, I think it's insane. Yeah. I don't know they had eight first rounders. We had one CB A draft pick that was me. So I guess you could say we

have one first rounder, right yeah, c b A Yeah. Listen, I was a usb L number I was the first. I was the first overall pick of the usb L. What team Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, Oklahoma storm in Oklahoma number one. We're all pick a lot of fighting for that pick. They traded up. There's at least one back that was exchanged. Huh. You and Chris Weber same thing in common? Yeah, um, well first round picks. Um, but you know you just you see those smiles and just an incredible time. Okay,

So how about this one. Um, you you did fix your shot or your the like look, you had a little bit of the same thing I had, only you fixed it. By the end of your college career, I couldn't write like you were a big score Mr. Basketball, State of Michigan. Everybody wanted you. And then you couldn't make a shot in college until your senior year when um, again, like now you would probably shoot twice as many threes, but you became nearly three point shooter and you actually

became a threat. How did you? How did you fix it? You know what? There there's a ton of variables that go into that, But I think I first had to understand a couple of things. One of the physiology of it. What's happening to I mean I Mike Davis, one of my favorite people on Earth, took over for Coach Night when he was fired. UM coach and Act Detroit used to call me quarter till and quarter till just meant when the lights turned on. I was great until the

lights turned on and it was game time. Not out of the ordinary for a young player and a j Guyton used to call me the practice all Americans says, I was the best, best Pat practice player in the country, and then the lights turned on, and you know what, it's ultimately it Ultimately it's it's choking. You're choking. I like to look at it as as overcaring and put too much pressure on myself, but to understand the physiology component,

like what is happening to your body? Um, I would find myself so worked up before the game, so nervous about ah not doing what I was capable of doing, so frustrated, so anxious that I would be exhausted before the game, and you know, it would just manifest itself into everything would be dribbling, would be anything that involved the small muscles that the little muscles in your your fingers, your arms, anything that would would affect the small muscles,

the finesse muscles, similar to what a what would affect a pitcher or quarterback, you know, the big muscle things like running and and staying in a defensive stance. And it didn't involve the finesse part of it. I was fine, but it was small things, and so now what did I do to change it? My senior guy, I had always worked on my shot. I'd always worked on my game a lot, a lot of shots a lot of time outside of practice. UM, you know, I think it. I'd like to say I just stopped caring, but I

didn't stop caring. UM. I just think that, Uh, you never know when it's going to click, and you've got to put in the work. But it just finally clicked. And I think part of it was, UM, just better perspective, just having better perspective that The other part was I'd seen every psychologist talked to, every coach, talked to every um, the person you could think of to try to try

to gain that that perspective. But I think ultimately it was just UM, the pressure went away after I decided that the game was important, but it wasn't my life and it didn't define me. And there were breathing techniques and there were different things that you could do, UM,

but it didn't define me. And how how often you've been a coach now for your entire professional life, you know, you did one year of hope and then how often do you see this occurring where you have guys with what I think the layman would term a performance anxiety. I would say that everybody has some some some degree of it. And the best example I can give you is something that I know you struggled with, and that

was that was free throws. And so if you take somebody in the game at the free throw line versus what they're shooting practice, it always is different. It's always different with that. My deal was so I take quick, take quick, kind of psychoic. Sorry interrupt um. So it's mine started to manifest itself in high school, very late at the free throw line and I was a big

score and I never forget. We were playing at the Pond and Anaheim which is now the Honda Center, playing Domingus, who I lost to my junior year and my senior they were loaded Tayshaun Prince and Tommy Prince. Tashaw was just like a freshman Tommy Prince and Kenny Bruner like they had a squad. And I remember getting to the free throw line in the Pond, and I had always been like the end of the game, hold the ball, get fouled, make free throws right, and like I just

all of a sudden felt off. I felt like this is not where I'm supposed to be. And then I went to Notre Dame and I was a hundred and sixty pounds and I mean I as cocky as ship like I was, I'm gonna be starting point guard, and um, we started like lifting and we were, you know, taking it back then CREA team was big whatever and I don't know what waterway or whatever. By the time we got to our first game, I was won seventy seven and I was yoked right man muscles nineteen yoked, But

I was. I felt like my body was tight, and I felt like I felt heavier. And suddenly I went from being able to dunk to like, all right, now I'm like Nick in the rim and and that hurt man. And then I was a little bit you know, you you know, your freshman year, like I was a little

lost offensively. Now for me, the free throw thing became kind of the It wasn't until I got really to to Oklahoma State where it manifests itself to any shooting where I just had a fear of failure and so I wouldn't shoot and I would um but um, but I also remember, um, I remember like I could do but I was the opposite. I could do anything on

a basketball court. I just couldn't get myself to actually shoot like I can normally shoot, you know, and uh and then it become like a self fulfilling prophecy where I wouldn't believe it was gonna go in, so wouldn't go in, and so you take it and it would look bad shooting. It would get worse than you feel bad, and it was it was really. I mean, I don't know how you feel about your first three years in college.

Like I've never shown my my son the tape of me playing college because I'm so embarrassed by how people guarded me, because I'm like, of course I can shoot, but you know what I mean, Um, it's so hard. And I was, I was so as good as I was. And I also had a coach I didn't know how to coach me, like I love Eddie Suddon, but he didn't understand what was going on with me mentally, where I just needed somebody to go like, hey, dude, you miss it, don't worry about it, you're not taking bad shots.

Get your asks back on defense. But instead he take me out, and then I I never wanted to come out. I thought I felt like coming out of a game was punishment, and so I know I would just like ship, if I don't shoot, then he's not gonna take me out and then I'm good, whereas all the guys on my team are like, shit, chake the shock you missed, don't worry about. It's gonna put you back in. And I just couldn't get over that mental hurdle. Yeah, well

it is. It's a case of just you're overcaring. And and it's funny because mine started and I it's cool too. And it started at the free throw line. I shot an air ball and then next thing I know, um the crowd yell and air ball and whatever. So then I got to the point wherever you do, don't airball. So then I'm just hoping and praying it hits the rim. As the year went on, and it was my sophomore year, and we lost a chance at the state championship because

of it. And you know, if I could pinpoint exactly why, and I could look back in like six and seventh grade and say, gosh, I could make breeze rolls better than I could in college in seventh grade, and and so you know, the pressure gets to everybody. There's varying degrees. I kind of look at it as three types, you know, so the so the worst one in baseball is an easy one to look to, UM would be the Steve

Sachs or the Chuck Chuck nob Blocker. The guy that's going through it right now is the picture John Lester and what I'm for the Cubs, And I think he's still with it now. I think he left. Who's he with I don't know, but he got to where he could actually kind of kind of throw in the first base but right, but it's the underhand would be something awkward. And I was surprised and I think you agree with

this that it didn't spill into his pitching. Nope, and in the first base, right, and so the fascination of it, um, where we're uh, that would be the worst though we're Steve Sacks or Chuck Noblocker. Remember Rich Ankie for the Cardinals watched it unfold for my eyes when he was pitching against the Braves, I think it was the NLCS and he just it just he just went to hell right front of us. And uh, he ended up coming back as a hitter, but never it was an elite,

elite pitcher. And so there there's those. But I think most most most players, UM spend there there pressure, you know, spend there in the middle area of it, they could just get over the hump. As far as dealing with the pressure, they would be elite. They would be pros, you know. And and then there are the pros that that really can handle the pressure. But you know, Shock for example, Okay, in my my opinion, Shock didn't miss. Shaq couldn't hit a free throw because of what you

and I had to deal with. Yeah he had big hands, Yeah he had long arms. Yeah he was seven seven, But I think it was completely in his head where most people say now he shot thirty eight percent because his hands are too big. You know, he's worked with every coach, you know, he just golfers, golfers, you know, the things that involved those finesse muscles like pitching and shooting. It's, uh, it's delicate, and the mental psyche is delicate, and that's

why there's so few, uh great pictures. I'd like to say, if if, if if every picture were that that through an hour could could put it where they want it, then then we wouldn't have Greg Maddox, Doug And that's that's the truth. I mean, there would be no room for for eight mile hour fastballs hour fastballs. If if you could put it where you want it. But the fact of the matter is you can't because of the mental psyche. There's just it's just hard to be elite.

And I just I think that's the fascination is why did it happen to you and I? Why did it happen to Steve Sachs, Why did it happen to Shock Chuck? Why do you think like wh why do you think do you think it's do you think it's I'd like to think it's a side of intelligence, um right, that you think too much, that you think about the rampifications of it. Um. You know I would, I would say that would be my My thing is I just overthought it. Joe Crispin, whom you played against, I know, Um, Joe

Crispin has a saying he would. He's now a D three coach. His brother. Yeah, and Joe was a great shooter, and I'll never forget he was like, hey man, you think you stink. Just remember that you think you stink. And I just couldn't. I just couldn't. I I never thought about it, never thought about a single pass I ever had to make. I never thought about anything else. I'd like, you know, all these guys like my son was hate Dad, did you crossover go behind your back?

Was like no, I just I would try and go buy somebody, and if they would beat me to a spot, I would spin or I'd cross over or go behind my back or something something like that. I just react to it, like I didn't go all this other one on cone bullshit. Um, but I didn't have to. You know, whereas you see little kids and they're like thinking moves,

like wh thinks about a move? But I would get up there and I would start I would start thinking, and you know, I think, you know, as I've gone on now as a dad and trying to teach as a coach, and and it's what I've what I've done.

What I think the proper way to teach things is to teach process um as opposed to result, which is like, hey, worry about your feet and you're breathing in your hands, and just don't even worry about the ball going in because the more if your feet are right, you know, if you just worry about these little things, your feet are right, your hands right, it'll go in more more times than not. I think that's the way. Okay, so let me fast forward here because uh, your time is precious.

You become a head coach at twenty five years old at Indiana produe Fort Wayne. What was that like, you know, once again being the son of a coach. Um. You know, the basketball component was was easy teaching, It came natural. I think what you can't which you can't get a head coach much less year old to understand, is that this is a serious business and they're you know, just like just like the financial world or you know, the

movie business. This is a serious business and there are a lot of there's a lot of good people, and then there's a lot of people that will will um are looking for the for the easy way and growing up the way I did, I assume your same way, especially in sports. Um, small town you're you're you're not really exposed to I wasn't bows to um. You know, the the the the the bad parts of of of of humans. You know that where um, there's there's a the selfish part of it, the selfish part of the world,

the greedy part of the world. And so UM, I'm just thinking, look, if I'm just honest, if I'm just kind, if I'm just do things right, like coach Knight did I'll be great, and it just wasn't the way it worked, and and in in in what in what way? I mean like listening like this is a long way removed from it, but in what way? Well, you mean an example,

how did it the way it changed me? I went into it as a year old with with a very open minded, um naive part of it being so young, but just believing in in people, UM with the utmost degree of respect and honesty and integrity, because that's all I've ever been around and exposed to. And part of it was my choice, you know, going to Indiana, I was around a lot of great people. Part of it was just being in a family and in a town

that had great leadership and great people. And so UM, I entered a world of of um, there's there's millions to be made, and there's a lot a lot of money in a stake, and then you've got to deal with UM A lot of good parents, but but many delusional parents and coaches and mentors and a lot of different agendas. So essentially I entered the real world, and the real world can be unforgiving, and so UM as a year old UH, navigating the the running with the Wolves.

Was was a big shock. Um. So an example would just simply be um scheduling. You know, I didn't understand that you couldn't just play um Michigan State and and lose because you and I were brought up as, hey, let's play these teams to get better, right, you know, so I was. I was excited about those opportunities. I didn't care about my record at that time. And the more I was told and that look, you gotta get wins, you gotta get this, you gotta get I said, well, hey,

look let's get our players better. Um I would say that the recruiting world is even at that level, is is difficult in what way? Because of everybody thinks sir pro Yeah, yeah, that's the that's the amazing part. Right.

It's like listen, do you know Indiana produced Fort Wayne by the way, like people obviously google terrible, Like your last year, you're eighteen and twelve a I p f W. That's amazing that, that's amazing in Division one basketball concerning the number of guarantee games you had to play, the resources, the fact that like you're not even the most famous I U p U, right, like iupui Pooe was much more, not like wait, what produced Fort Wayne? What the hell? Um?

It was funny because I had an assistant named Jeff tong Gate who's the head coach of the Oakland University women, but he was assistant and he was my assistant, and he was at division division to school. And when he came in on day one and saw our budget at I p f W who was transitioning from D one or D two to D one we weren't in the league. He said, this is you're funded. I got bad news.

You're funded like a bad, bad Division two teams and for for go ahead, sorry, and he said, the chances of us getting ten home games out of twenty nine or thirty at the time is is going to be really difficult. And he said, you want worse news. He said, you're starting going five out of the gate. And he said, what do you mean? He goes, we get to play five by games. And of the so many that were played last year, let's say there were two fifty turned

fifty by games that were played last year. He said three three teams won a bye game. So you start out ohing five And then the tough part was just getting games and even more difficult than that was getting home games. But um, you know that said that the building part. We finally got into a league eventually, And you said eighteen and twelve. There It was funny because the year I left, we were eighteen and twelve and that was the year that Michigan State lost to u C.

L A in the first round. And uh, I said, I think we were eighteen and twelve, and I think Michigan State was nineteen and twelve. I said, they're having a parade for us in Fort Wayne and they're ready to fire is already in East Lansing. And that's that. That gives you some perspective. I said, we finished third in our league, might even finish a second and I don't remember, but um, you know, Michigan we finished third

in the Big ten. We maybe a three seed, you know, And I'd say eighteen at the mid low major level because of buy games, yeah, high major, more than twenty. I mean, you can you know, twenty wins. I don't know if you know this, but over a hundred teams per year win twenty games. Um, okay, So so you go to Michigan State. What is Tom Zoh like to work? For And look, obviously you're not gonna say anything about

a bunch your boss. All I can tell you is, guys, generally, you know you your staff YouTube haven't left and it's not for lack of opportunities. So he must be pretty damn good to work for. What is he like? Everybody? It's funny, Uh, when I'm on the road, get to know, somebody talked to somebody, maybe just met from another program. What's it like? What's it like working for his eye? He's the best, you know? I say, are you kidding me? They say, do you love it? Do you love it? Dane?

He said, are you kidding me? It's hard? Love it winning? I love winning, all right, But coming into work every day, um, it's hard work. I don't know if loves the right word, but I'll tell you this dog, I love him and he makes me better every single day. And um, you know, I was looking at a job last year and it paid more it was. I wouldn't call it a lateral move, but it's hard to make a lateral move from from a program like this and a and a boss like this. But I said, I don't want to go. I said,

I just want to know that you bring value. I'm sorry. I just want to know that I'm still that you think I'm still bringing value to your program, and that that I'm still making your program better. And you know, he obviously told me yes because I stayed. But um, it's it's every day that that I feel I get better. And I just told somebody that this morning. Um, you know, why not take a certain job or go after a

certain job that's open. I said, you know, it would take a lot to give me to leave, and mainly because I'm still getting better. I'm still learning here in a major way and hard to work for. But here's the thing about coaches. Oh, what he says he's gonna do,

he's gonna do. And at no point, even in his worst day, even when he's told me, uh, you know, I've done something wrong or done a bad job, or he's disappointed at or yells at me, or tells me look for another job at the end of the year, at no point do I not think that he doesn't have my best interests in mind. I know at all times that whatever he does, it's it's for my best interests, much like a player. But I've just never been around

a guy that's more selfless than him. And we can talk about him making big money and all that, you know what, he's had chances to triple that and put less time in at in the NBA. And so we're in a part. We're in a situation right now in college basketball that there is not a better leader. And I am going to stroke my boss for a little for a second. There's not a better leader slash CEO out there than than than coaches, because he gets the most out of you, and yet he does it out

of love. And we can talk about him getting in people's faces, but him doing that to somebody is different than say me, are you doing that to somebody? Because of the mont and love and time and passion and um work that he puts into each individual player and coach in person. You know this. This is a guy that grew up in a really small Upper Peninsula town, poor town. He was poor. His dad owned a shoe repair shop and he was in there working. And if you didn't if five people came in to spend money

that day, Doug, you needed him to spend money. So you had to learn to treat people like a million bucks and be genuine about it and so this is just a larger, a larger to repair shop. Honestly, I've just never been any anybody and around anybody that's as passionate and caring about others as this guy. As coaches in his position, he doesn't have to be he doesn't have to coach, he doesn't have to put up with stuff. He could go to the NBA, he could retire. It's

it's just an incredible time. And the book hasn't been written, and I'm surprised why it has. You can make a lot of money right in a book on this guy where I actually ran into the final four. But do you want him? Have him him? Right? I want let me this I could I could change and I could, I could, I could write it. Um. Okay, so I gotta I got a couple more um because I want to talk about this year's team, But first I want to ask him. This is in regards to this year's team.

He has certain things that he does, right. He always he'd always you know, come over a call time out here in the game, situations, things you guys prepare for. But what I've noticed is something he started some of it last year, but really this year especially and the team had some limitations, but I've noticed kind of a bit of an evolution in some of the stuff. You guys run like. You go back a couple of years ago when I was a CBS like, it was the

same plays and sets and maybe even calls. You guys would run forever. Look and you still have your still core. You know you're still rebounding, You're still transitioning. You know, you guys are still running the lane super hard and super wide. You guys still rebound like wild dogs. But the the actual sets offensively have evolved. There's some NBA looks, there's some ball screens that are to the baseline side,

there's some different stuff. Who's the guy in the staff that convinced him to change, Well, I'm sure there's a bunch of people, but um, I guess from my perspective, my approach with coach was, you know, he always he's best friends with the late Flips, Honors love Slip and Flip would always come every summer and chalk talk and the coach would always always, since I've been here, would always hear Coach talk about, you know, flipping his counters.

Flipping his counters. That's a good point coach, Why why do you why do you say flipping his counters? It's just you know, like shouldn't shouldn't we have counters to a set? Thinking why doesn't he like counters? And so so he wasn't real big on counters per se, you know, counterplace. So if you run a pin down and they go underneath the pin down, you should we call it a faith? Just script it, you know, just all right, Travis Stritch, you're coming off of faith because they're going up the

gut counter Um, more motion, principles, more reads. But um, after last year we lost the Syracuse. Now there's a million reasons why, but you don't want to hear any of them. But I just thought, all right, some yeah, some things that we need to change, okay, And I went down my list of things that need we need to work on. Of course naturally end of the season, but I just got to thinking, you know, today's player, all right, forget about the personality, the toughness, all that stuff.

We can sort through that. But today's player, especially the young kids, are taught so much with the ball in their hands. Okay, And Miles Bridges is an example. I just had this discussion with with a coach. But go ahead, if you watch Miles play in college. Okay, damn damn good. All those that good at good at what he's good at. But one of the things he had no idea how to do when he got him, when we got him,

was was played without the basketball. That takes time. So I said, we're pounding a square peg to a round hole trying to teach these guys how to move and cut, teach them all these principles how to play without the ball. And that's great, we should and we should never stop. But I said, we've got to start put putting them in positions a that they're good at and b um, you know, allowing them to not allowing them, but but um catering to you know what, what what each player

can can do well. And so I said, in addition, you know, one of our biggest selves is that we are we are running an NBA style offense. And yet the NBA seemingly has moved a little bit. And we've, as you kind of alluded to, you've you said, we've we've stayed the same, right, and so we have guys like Miles Bridges who and Jaren Jackson, um that a they're young, incredibly young, seventeen eighteen, and B I really

don't know how to play without the ball. Jarring was better than Miles, But um, that's a lot to ask considering we are so young and so the the recruiting philosophy I think needs to be changed. Needs to change our recruiting philosophy. It's hard to survive with a couple of one and done. You either got to go all in, in my opinion, or really really limit your one and dones.

But b we either recruit kids that know how to play without the ball, which is really hard to find, or recruit the best talent that that we think fits our program, the best profile that fits our program. And you never know until they get here. But what we do know is the guru generation, the trainer generation, you know, the kids that don't go play five on five out in the park or at you know, one on I like,

I call it one on cone generation. There you go, that's right, We've got We've got some amazing I I that's what I sell the recruits. It's funny. Look, I can put you through the best cone drills you'll ever see, you know, as good as as good as as good as anybody, as good as the best in the country. I can set up combs, okay, but you know the one thing you're gonna get here is is this this and this chance to play for a championship, chance to

play for a Hall of famorage. And you'll be pushed. Um. But that was my that was I know that was a long answer, but you know that was my thought is we we've got to do a better job putting our players in position to play to their strengths. Uh in real time, yah, you know. And and they'll they'll evolve, they'll develop, We believe in versatility. And then the counters. All right, So if they go start trapping Cash, is his ball to ball screen, let's not go away from Okay,

can't can't set a ball screen for Cashes. Let's use it against him, you know, Let's let him trap Cash and put our guys in position to where now we're going to punish him. You know, if they start turning, if they start playing on top of a down screen, let's not go away from the down screen. Let's use it against him. And so those were the adjustments that were my suggestions and and coach is awesome. Coaches, those the best in listening. You may not agree with it,

but he's definitely gonna listen. So, how did now that you've had a chance to decompress, you guys had an amazing year, right, Like, not just you lose lottery picks and you win your tournament in Vegas, you win the Big Ten, You in the Big Ten tournament, you get to a final four, right, like, of of things that can be checked, you checked every box except for one, which is in a national championship, right, I mean, that's

that's an InCred season. And then you factor in all the injuries, right like I think if you had arms, I think you might you might go to a national championship game. You know, forget about if you had if you had Langford. Um. But and I remember I was sitting us from Steve Lavin and we did this was before one of your games early the season, and I picked you guys to win the Big Ten and I said, no agendas. I was like, this is a this is a great this is gonna be a great college basketball team,

because I'd see in Vegas. But how now that you've had a chance to kind of decompress and think about it, Um, how did it come to be that you guys had this type of year. Considering all of the different things which could have caused it to go south, Well, I think what what we did is, um, we knew going in that Davier Tillman was going to be a great player for US. Okay, he was having a great summer. Um changed his body and he just has an unbelievable feel for the game. And so we knew that Tillman

was really going to help us. He's he is, he's we used the term Draymond like. He's Draymond like on defense defense in that he makes up for a lot of mistakes that other players make. And um, we knew we had a bunch of really good pieces. But the one thing we couldn't really the factor is is um we we didn't know who was We needed people to step up. So we felt like Tillman was going to step up. We felt like obviously Langford was going to be better. We weren't sure on mcclad uh or Kenny Goings,

and those guys stepped up in a major way. We knew Matt was going to be a great defender. Okay, Matt's one of the best in the country. Um, but he just was so much more confidence, confident on offense. And I think part of that was was that Josh Langford got hurt and Matt didn't feel the you know, didn't feel the guilt, maybe that it was his time to make a player shoot when he knew he had another elite player next to him. Um, you know, Nick Ward getting hurt was was was devastating, but it also

helped other guys gained confidence and get better. Um Cassius Winston, you know when Josh went down, that was our other that was our third score. You know, you had cash, Nick Cassius once in, Nick Ward and Josh Lankford, we felt were going to do the bulk of our scoring. So then it forced us to be a little bit

more creative with cashes. And there were times in games where maybe I would be calling something for another player to at least get the ball and and there was no We're ball screened for Cash, Give Cash base, he'll make a play. And uh So, I think that when it's all said and done, how did we hang on

and keep getting better? Um, I'll give coaching some credit, I'll give culture a lot of credit, but I think in the end, the players bought into what we were doing, Doug and and that is hard to do, especially when you've got um McDonald's all Americans, kids that had a ton of success, kids that are driven to be pros. They bought into what we were doing. I'd say, you're right. If we had Kyle Arnes, we probably would have played

in that championship game. And that's not to take anything away from Texas Tech, but um, that experienced player would would make a huge difference because when Aaron Henry got in followed trouble h in the first half of that semifinal game, we felt like we could play six and a half guys and the half was gonna spell. It was going to give McQuaid a one or two minute break and maybe Cashious a one or two. We couldn't give him Acquit a break, and I think it wore

mcquait out. And I will give Matt McQuaid credit or Texas Tech credit for that. Becauld. We have played Aaron Henry with with two fouls in the first half, Yeah, but that's not really what we do. And we felt like as long as we were close in the game, we didn't need to play them. But maybe that's for another day. No, listen, I mean I would I generally would disagree with that that philosophy. I thought it nearly

got that that same thought. UM heard Virginia when they took Quite out with two fouls and then he in the they took he took um uh. He took tied Drome out with with four fouls with like five minutes to go against Auburn, and tied Rome has never foul out of a game. He only had four fouls one of the game this year. You know, they don't foul or they don't. Actually they're like Michigan. They don't get called for fouls. They don't. They don't foul. They put

Zion back in in our game and he had two falls. Yeah, listen, I I think it's it's very much case dependent. And I played for a guy who would sit there and go like, well, coach, you want you want to leave him in or do you wanna take him out like you get five stop fouling. Yes, it was. It was a very simple philosophy. You stop fouling. Combs sitting next to me and help me coach, Like all right, okay, I guess moving on, but hey, listen. It was an

incredible incredible year. Uh, but you know what one last one last thing on on I want to do on on Coach Coach Night because I got time. I got time. No, no, no, I know. But with the in terms of a podcast, you don't want it to because people will download it more if it's a little bit you know you, I could splice it up. I don't know if you're worthy of two pods. I don't know that. Um, and I don't know what I was saying. You can cut some stuff out. I don't want to cut anything out. It's

been freaking good. UM put late in late night and have me put some people to sleep. What? Uh? You know like he was he was on campus last week. Obviously he made an appearance and obviously he's got some memory issues that that's working. What what what would feel? What? I feel bad like? I feel like, look, I'm I'm

part of the Coach Sutton family. I feel terrible that the image that people have of him now is you know, UM in a wheelchair and you know, unable to You're unable to feel what it was like and people are right and am I am I crazy? But you guys playing against Texas Tech like there's just there was a lot of Bob Knight in how Texas Tech played, how they competed. You mentioned the defense in the motion in the offense, right, like if you were to relate a man.

I can't say exactly what it would be like if Coach Knight was in his prime, but a lot of what it might have looked like was what Texas Tech was like. No, you know what with the players they had, they had men, and they had men that were willing to, you know, lay down their bodies for for the betterment of the team. And um, I was just fascinated with one that that their motion and they didn't run a

ton of it against US. UM. But I give Coach Beard all the credit, especially with they got tired by the way, Guarden, you guys and say stopped moving, They kind of stopped unning when you guys made that run the second half. They were gas they were tired. They were they were And I think that you know, obviously Owen gets hurt with his ankle against US, and that's nobody's fault in this awful to see it happened, but I think it impacted him for the next game too,

you know, against Virginia. And I think that you know, we we did a number on them, as they did a number on us. But I think whichever team made it through the Virginia was going to have a tough, tough game for the simple fact that the two teams that played in the second game on Saturday night, it was a war. And you know, it's back to the

coach Night, coach Beard. Um. It's interesting that any anybody who runs motion today is you know, I feel for him, but I admire them, but their toughness, you know, it did it reminded me of um, you know those Coach Knight's first team. You know, he always talks the first championship team with Quinn Buckner and Scott May and those guys. It was a tough, rugged, blue collar to one to

five team. And I think that you know, if you get a chance to ask coaches, oh, I think he'll he'll readily admit that that team was tougher, tough, if not tougher than us, Um, especially in that game. Yeah, and then rarely, and that rarely happens. Then Moody made some shot. They just you know, they made some shots and you know, paying from behind, yeah, and and playing from behind is hard it's just, you know, so much better to die. No. I mean, yes, you had had

you had a run, you had him within grasp. They they I talked to those guys afterwards. I was like, you guys stopped running offense, Like dude, we were tired. Guarding them is hard. Yeah, it's funny because I mentioned McQuade being exhausted. You know that Shotty gets in the corner from Aaron Henry. Yeah, okay, late in the game. He makes that nine and a half times out of ten. But I think that Henry getting followed trouble really hurt us.

They're not playing errand by any sense. Just McQuaid makes that shot nine and a half times out of ten and he missed it to tie the game. Toman gets the ball stolen with we're down four minute and a half. Hey, those guys did a number on us too. It was a great game, probably not from a fans perspective, but I disagree. I was sitting there watching I thought it was like it was like watching there was like watching four prize three prize fights. It was that was fantastic.

But you're a coach. I don't consider you a fan. You're a coach. I'm not a don't have a team. You know you don't have a team. Well, I have like fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh high school teams that should done not compared to what what what you guys have. Listen, you've been more than gracious with your time. And I think people at this point, if they've listened this long, they're like, man, these guys who go on on. We will do a part two at some point this summer.

Um and uh, we'll we'll we'll talk more about izoh. And I love the stuff about the brain and the mentality. In the meantime, Congratulations on an incredible season. Incredible, I would love to be Dugan's just such a much cool an ending Doug, thanks for joining, Eric, Yeah, thanks join all right, So that my thanks to Dane Fife, um and to two Tony Bennett. Virginia is our national champion.

And look, with with all of the not all of the mess, all the mess that has been college basketball, the perception of college basketball, to have Virginia in it where you got legit student athletes and a coach that doesn't cheat, and and um, somebody who has just a great balance of having been beaten by Syracuse when they should have gone to the Final four by u NBC when they were upset the year before too. Then have these miraculous three wins in a row and win a

national championship and doing things the right way. I think it's great for the sport. I think it's great for the sport. We'll do more recaps on the year, We'll have more coaches on, We'll turn our focus more also to the NBA upcoming. I really appreciate you downloading, subscribing,

and rating the All Ball podcast. Remember to check out the radio show, Doug Gotlib Show daily three to six, season time twelve three Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, Fox Sport Trade dot Com, the I Heart Radio app as well. I'm Doug Gottliebin. This is All Ball.