Cavs Guard Matt Mooney Discusses Improbable NBA Path, College Transfer, Texas Tech Title Game Run, Coach Beard

this for a second. He had one scholarship offer out of high school that was to go to the Air Force Academy. But he didn't get to go to Air Force right away to go to their prep school, which is on the campus in Colorado Springs. I don't want to give away what happened, but crazy story what happened. Then he he go was prepped for a year, plays there for a year, and then decides I want to leave Air Force. He goes to the University of South Dakota place for Craig Smith, who's now the head coach

at Utah State. Goes to South Dakota, sits out for a year, then tears it up for two years, and then he transfers again. Was close to going to Craighton, decided to go to Texas Tech. And at Texas Tech he had a dream season. They go to a national championship game. They were tied with the ball out of bounces underneath their own basket with a couple of seconds remaining, and obviously they lost in overtime to Virginia. Then he

goes to the Hawks summer. I'll let him tell the story. Nonetheless, it's a story of perseverance, of hard work, work ethic, and self belief. Um, there's also a personal side to it with his father. You're gonna love this, pot Um. A couple of quick thoughts basketball wise, Obviously, college basketball starting to come together. And it's interesting that we're talking to Matt Money, who ended one of Glenzaga's dream seasons that the preseason number one. I mean, think about this.

It's been twenty years now of Golenzaga dominance in college askedball, but only recently they have they made deep runs or deeper runs in the n s A Tournament final four, the national Championship game a couple of years ago, which they end up losing by one possession. So now like Gonzaga has a legit shot to win it, to win the whole thing, and that would be the last thing to accotomplish the dominate the conference, dominator, conference tournament, set

one and done of the NBA. They're now a preseason number one team in the country. They've been to a Final four, been new national championship game. The only thing left is to actually win that last game on Monday Night. We'll see this year if they can do it. We'll talk more about the teams. Baylor also right there as a almost like a cod number one. Fascinating what Scott

Drew has been able to do. If you remember he took over Dave Bliss was caught an audio tape putting the blame on one of his players who was shot dead by one of his other players. I mean, they had recruited guys off campus, no scholarships this first year to building Baylor into being an Elite eight team, several times over losing the Duke a couple of questionable calls. Could this be the year that Scott Drew lives the impossible dream, gets to Final four or maybe wins the

national championship at Baylor's. That's kind of what's in front of us with college basketball. The rest is a little bit messy, right. We think we're a couple of weeks away from college basketball starting, but the COVID numbers continue to rise, the restrictions get a little bit tighter, and we still don't have true clarity on how many of these events will absolutely positively go off. There's gonna be a season. What it looks like, I can't honestly tell you.

But the other part that's interesting is here we are a week away from the NBA Draft, and how many of these guys can you recall at the top of your head. Now, many of you know that covering college basketball a huge proponent of sport, but of the value of the promotion of the sport. Now, I think, how

many these guys can you actually name? Because you didn't see Anthony Elberts playing the n c term probably win't of anyway, but you didn't see you name the player, and you didn't uh the a choral kid from Auburn will be a top seven pick. Didn't see him play, not because of anything he did, but because of COVID. It shows the value of the n c A Tournament, So we'll get to some of that with Matt Mooney. Last thing, boy, the NBA is in a pickle. They're

gonna start before Christmas, play those Christmas games. And that's great for the Golden State Warriors, who also get a little bit of tax relief with some of the CBA rules that have been up put down. But what do you do with Lebron James and what do you do with the heat those teams that just got done playing

and now have such a limited offseason. My guess is the Lebrons of the world will suddenly take a lot more breaks, not just in December, in January, in the February and slow rollout how much they played this NBA season. All right, let's get to our discussion with that money. All right, let's welcome in. He's uh Matt, Matt Mooney joins us. I want to get to your life and

and and everything. But it's fascinating like this, just like this is what I really want, like basketball, and I think you're starting to you probably already know this and you're starting to figure it out. There's so much connectivity right Like it's it's interesting. My guaranty is the player development coach. That was his term. His name is right there. Yeah. Okay, so my garitty grew up in Orange County. When he was just a little twarp, he was probably six seventh grade.

My dad used to have um a basketball academy workout Sundays at Woodbridge High School in Irvine, California, and there used to be this little kid and the dad was like, this guy is gonna be a player. He wants to be the next Gottlieb Mike Gary war forty four. Because I was this guy and now he's he's your developmental coach and he played at USC stud player good Year. He's great. Isn't that funny that? Yeah, that's a no.

It is a small world. I heard that he was out training Mike Brown's son, and then when Mike Brown got the job here, he brought him on just because you know, he uh he liked what he was doing. But he's really good at what he does. Yeah, it's it's it's really amazing. Um, Okay, where in Chicago did you go up? So? I grew up in Wakonda. It's uh forty five minutes northwest. What kinda man forever? Yeah, now that's the joke people mate different spelling. Okay, So

it's it's forty five minutes from Chicago, which which direction northwest? Okay, so that's like so that's not like glenn Brook North and all that. That's past that, right past that. Have you been out that way? Yeah? Yeah, I mean I was born in Milwaukee, I spent I have friends a lot of friends from from that part of around there in Chicago. Whatever. Done some work there as well at times is awesome, I mean. Okay, so your first memory of basketball is where? What do you like? First memory?

What kind of park district? Uh? Just playing? Like I think I was probably in kindergarten, first grade. My dad was coaching. I know your dad was coaching, Uh you growing up. I've listened to your stuff. My brother listens to a lot of your stuff actually, Um, but my dad was coaching kind of park district, you know, playing on those eight foot goals and uh, you know, everybody just runs to the ball type of thing and every time you get it, you shoot it. That's probably what

I first memory. Okay. So then as you as you grew up, were you only a ball guy? Did you play baseball, football? Other sports? No? I played other sports, but I loved basketball. Um and I was small. I was real small, so like football. I love football. I liked football, but I was like I was too skinny. Uh So in baseball, I was pretty good at baseball. I like soccer too, But around fifth grade I gave

everything up. I played football eighth grade, but fifth grade I gave everything up because you know, baseball in the summer conflicts with you, and uh I gave it up, you know. And my dad was always trying to think, like, all right, what's the best way we can get him a scholarship, So he was trying to keep me in baseball or other sports because he didn't know, you know. So basketball ended up working out, but I I just

loved it. I I understand. So Okay, so you're like fifth grade, sixth grade, You're you're little, and you're like, dad, this is what I want to do. He wants to like this is by the way, it's like a snapshot of my life. My son's left hand. And I'm like, bro, you ain't given up baseball. But he loves he loves huh yeah, he loves he loves Hooper. But I don't know, like I'm I'm smaller than you, and I don't know if he's gonna beat my size. Um, so, uh were you?

Were you really good? Did you blossom? Like? Okay, middle school type type age? Were you? How good were you? I was good? Um, I was good in middle school and high school was where you know, I just didn't hit. I didn't hit my gross furred and you know I was I was still good, but I wasn't You remember how big you were when you entered high school? Yeah? It was five five five five or five six. Yeah, so here's so here's my So I was five ft tall at the end of eighth grade, five ft a

hundred five pounds. And my dad the whole year was like, he's staying back because I grew late. He's gonna be late. So I stayed back and end up I stayed in the same school district with different school and then I switched school district, school to high school. And I entered high school at like five so fifteen months, I grew nine inches and I was like and I was during the year. I grew so much. I was terrible when I was okay as as a freshman. So, uh, you're

a freshman. You played JV freshman team, like what will we use a freshman? Well, so I ended up going to high school like right on the north side of Chicago. I went kind of far away because my dad was, you know, trying to figure out where to where to send me because we're trying to get a scholarship, right. Um, So I went to play for tom Less Notre Dame High School there on the north side, and I was a basketball school. So it was just you know, I

was gonna be Uh that was the focus. And you know, we we were going to play against kids in the city better company Titian. So he sent me there, and uh, I mean we were good. So I played sophomore as a freshman, and then I played sophomore as a sophomore, and I played varsity as a junior. I didn't really even start my junior year until like halfway through. So, okay, so in your senior year, how good were you? My

senior year? I was good. I mean we were we were like top five, top ten in the state in Chicago. You know, it's pretty good. And you know I was our best player. Um. We didn't have any other Division one guys. We had some talented guys. Uh, we had some good players, some other college players. We had really good like high school players. But my senior year, I think my my senior I average almost twenty a game, you know, and five something something along those lines. But

I wasn't All state or anything. What are you program? Shot down? Diablos? Who's on the team? Um? You know nobody that you would know, you know, Chris A Breath. He ended up going Juco and then went to Sam Houston State. Uh, Josh daus when of my team end up playing at with me at the University of South Dakota. We had a little point guard who played Division two ari. We were you know. We we had a dude, Gavin Shilling, who left our team end up playing at Michigan State,

but he went to Mcurvan Fire. My coach, Chuck Demons, he just put together some guys in the city and made a team and we weren't sponsored or anything like that. So then, um, how did so then from there you went to did you got the Air Force? Prep? Would you got the Air Force? Right away? I went to Prep because I broke my ankle out of high school. So yeah, I was around for a little while in college out of high school, right before I was gonna go to the uh to the academy. I was supposed

to just go to the academy. And I was being stupid. I mean, I wasn't being stupid, but I was, what were you doing? I was being stupid. I was I was right the bike. You know, I was trying to get ready for basic training and I had like a something wrong with my foot. So the doctor told me just just ride a bike to stay in shape. So it's raining outside and me and my brother we we grab our we grab our bikes, and we're going for a bike ride. And we get to this, uh, this trail.

It's like a one mile loop, and you know, I'm pretty competitive, and I'm like, all right, Joe, you go, you go left, I'm gonna go right. We're gonna race. The first one to get back here wins. So I start going I'm going way too fast. We got these really old bikes that you know, they're not very good. We we don't bike ever, and uh, I start going down this hill and you know, I get to the bottom of the hill, my back tires slips out. I

smashed my foot in the ground, break my ankle. So then air Force was like all right, you can't do basic training with the busted ankle. So they sent me to the press school, who recouged you to Air Force. Uh, Steve Snell and Dave Pulpovic coach PIO. So when they came to your house, was or any was there ever a point where like, I do not want to be in the Air Force. So I, I know, you want to play hoop and I've called games air Force, like I actually kind of dig the place. It's beautiful, and

like you want to hoop. You want to hoop, but they're like, hey, by the way, afterwards, you're gonna have to be in the Air Force. Although air Force is kind of cool, the chance of maybe fly a plane. I don't know. No, I never wanted to be in the military. It wasn't like, uh you know, I didn't come from a military family. I didn't want to fly plane. But that was my only Division one offer, and you know my dream was always Division one. So I went

on a visit. They never came to my house, but I went on the visit, and uh, you know, I like the facilities, I like the coaching staff, I like coach p So I just decided, you know, this is if this is what I gotta do to to fulfill my dream of Division one. Then I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna go through the basic training and all the military and all that stuff. And uh so I took it. And plus they're in the Mountain West, which is a good league, and he's a good league. It was really

a good league at the time. Yeah, not not as good, not as good when you left it was. And that's why I got bad. Was you left? Really that's that's that's good. Okay. So so you you can't do basic, you go and now all of a sudden, you're an Air Force prep now for people who don't know to prep school is literally on the same campus, right like where you guys have your own dorms or you're intermingled with with regular cardads. Like what's that existence? Like, no,

I'm surprised you know that that much about it. It's uh, it's on the base and it's like three miles away from the academy. And then we're I mean we're in the military. We had to do basic training as well, but they allowed me to do it with the broken leg, and uh it was hardening. It was hard, well, hardest things hardest to do, hardest thing I had to do.

Yeah there, Yeah, well, so I went through three weeks of basic training at the prep to go through that school year and then yeah, that year was tough, but and I only played about half the season because I was still getting healthy. And then the next year I went through basic training again for six weeks. But the hardest thing you have to do is you just the thing. The thing about Air Force and like the military and basic training is like you're constantly doing things you don't

want to do. When you don't want to do them, you know, you just have no say, you just got to do it. And you know you're up at four thirty in the morning and first thing you're doing, you know, sirens are going off, beating on the door, and you're just going for like a ten mile run and you're doing pushups, and you know, there was a time, there was a time we literally you're not gonna believe this, people probably are gonna believe this, but we did a hundred my squadron, we did a d twenty push ups

in a row without stopping. Like the forum Pride wasn't great, but I never would have thought I could do that, and it's just like you push yourself past your your limits mentally you're you're a lot stronger than you realize. It's more it's one of those if you can do this, there's nothing you can't do. Right, It's doesn't I mean that's look in no way does it compared to what does it said? It's a pleave in the army? What does it call when you're a freshman at at a

deer force? Well, I can't believe. I can't think of it right now. You can't remember. Oh man, it's gonna

come to me during this conversation. You will, okay. So um, But like so when I went to Oklahoma State, we we decided with my first time running, I get there, it's like August and August in Oklahoma's hot at balls, right, So we're running and we had we had to run from the weight room to the track, which is like a half mile, like just a jog to warm up, and then we did our sprints and stuff on the track and then we run back, right remember, and we

were running back, dudes, you're just thrown up. And I was like, and I told coach, I was like, hey man, it is not safe. Is a hundred degrees and you got some big dude. He's like, all right, were you running six? And the more ring We're like okay. So it kind of became our thing, and it's like, dude, And the worst part this is what I'm interested in, right, and I guess I don't know. They do the bugle whatever.

The worst part is not getting up. It's the fear of not waking up, which wakes you up, like at three in the morning, at four in the morning, at four three in the morning, at five in the morning, and five through Oh ship, Now I gotta get up, right, So how do you how do you overcome that? The idea it's not the oversleeping, because everybody gets up and waits up, but it's the mindset of, oh God, I can't oversleep or then there's going to be hell to pay.

How do you overcome it? When it where an air force? Yes, well, in basic training you have no choice like that. You don't have your phone, so they're banging and sirens are going off. But then in the school year, yeah, if you if you do not wake up, what they do is they just punish everybody else and they may keep staying there and watch so you feel terrible about it. Um. I I don't know if I ever missed it because I was so afraid of not waking up. I was

already in trouble. You know. They didn't like me, you know from the jump there, so I knew, like I can't miss this. Um. And it's crazy like how our bodies work. We just kind of automatically wake up. But nowadays we got the cell phones and we can set the alarms. So I don't think I ever missed one. What what do you remember about playing there? Uh, Princeton offense. Heah, I don't like it. I didn't enjoy the Princeton Uh.

And I like and I just you know, I've had David on the pod, like David gil okay and and and so. But and this goes back to I used to cover Air Force when because Delik was there and before him when uh, when Chris Mooney was the head coach there. I guess Mooney's my guy. He's been on the pod and he's a Princeton guy. And I just

that's just not my jam. It's just it's it's it's so um like I've always I've always been I always think it's funny that guys that run Princeton like they can't even function in normal pickup basketball because they're so kind of programmed to elbow sin. You know, when you when you if you've been in a couple of years, you can play you can play basketball, but you struggle to play basketball sometimes. Yeah, And that's the hard thing

with the Prince. And I agree with you. I don't want to bass the Princeton or Coach p. Know, Coach pe was a good coach and he had some success over there, um, but it takes away your instincts. Like basketball, the thing that I love about the game is the creativity that you can, you know, use your instincts and read and react to what the defense does. With the Princeton,

it's just already kind of premeditated. And I didn't enjoy it, um, you know, and I think there's a way to run it with a little bit more Dully's that's what they call you a duelli right now now, it's not a dutey, that's what it says. Just uh is it a dutey Yeah, yeah, which means like servant. It's I need a text. One of my guys. I can't believe I can think about it's not a plea plea of his army telling you is a duey anyway, it's not huh, it's not. We

were cadets, but they call us something else. How how did you play it? One or two years? One year? So you're there two years? Right, you're in the Springs for two years? What's the decision like to leave? Like to take me through? How was it hard? Did you go see coach p did you text him? Did you go sit down face to face? Like what what was taking me through the experience? Yeah? I don't know what

I mean, it was it was a very tough decision. Um. You know, because here's here's the the thought process of people who get into the accoun at me because so many people try to get in. It's like it's your ticket if you graduate from there. You know, the saying is you work hard for four years, you have fun for forty And they say, you know, if you go to another school, you have fun for four years and you work hard for forty. That's kind of the mantra um.

So like everybody there, it's like, okay, once you get in there, you might hate it there, but it's your ticket because if you graduate you know, you do your time in the Air Force, you're set for life. You're set great school, great reputation, you set get any job you want when you're done. And that's kind of it keeps a lot of guys there who don't want to be there. And I just kind of got that out of my head. It's like, I don't have to stay here to be successful no matter which way I go

with hoops or whatever I do. And I didn't know like playing professionally was going to be You're an option at the time, but I knew I wanted to see how far I could go with the game of basketball, because that was the hard part there too, was uh you know, you had limited time to focus on hoops. Um it was military and school was was your priorities. But I had to sit down with coach Pete before spring break because we get a week off to go

home for spring break. I had to sit down with him and just told them, you know, my frustrations this and dead and um you know, a long story short, I just wasn't happy there, and uh, you know, it was a tough year for me when when it came out, it came out that you had alleged that you were bullied there, right right, Yeah, yeah, that made things way worse because I talked about I talked to some guy and I just said, you know, bullying and stuff happens here, um,

and it's just part of the system, you know, the upperclassmen, like you're an underclassman. It's like the in the military. You know, it's like you have to listen to somebody who ranks higher than you. So if they tell you

to do anything, they want to do anything too. It's it's like, okay, like upper class would come in my room, They'll be like, right, you know, your room's dirty, and then they just throw my bed on the floor and throw some clothes out on the floor, and then I gotta clean it all up to like the proper standards and fold my clothes ten by ten. And it's like that stuff would happen, and it's just um, I mean, I guess it's part of it, but it's it would happen to me in my roommate more than I guess

I guess. Here's the here's the question I've I kind of wonder the picture painting, which is you're a very religious guy. Religion is very important to you and air Force he's a place where it has always been. It's it's kind of come out that it's the very there's a lot of very very Christian beliefs, and there's a lot of people that are at least alleged to be very religious there. Doesn't that go counter to the idea of throwing somebody's stuff all out on the floor and

treating them like dirt just because they're a freshmen. Well, first, a couple of things. One, you know, I don't want to talk bad about air Force is part of like you know, it's part of the process and training and getting making guys tougher mentally and physically. And I there are some people there who abuse their power, and that that happens in any line of work you're in. But also there's a lot of great people there. So like you're saying, it's Christian and good people and no matter

what they believe, good people. Then the third thing I would just say, it's like I'm not a you know, it's hard to explain, but I wouldn't say I'm a religious person. I just I'm more of a relational you know, I I'm working on my relationship with God. You know, religion is following us out of rules and you know you got to do these things, uh checking off the boxes and that. But I'm more of a relational persona we look at it. Okay. So yeah you had it.

You had a buddy at AU teammate at South Dakota, right you you're not you're going to transfer and he wasn't there yet. Huh, he was not there yet. He was you're but you're not, You're going to transfer. Okay, But it wasn't like you killed it an air force, no disrespect. Right, you play time, you shot well, you guys weren't good. Um, okay, know how did you get to How did you get to play at South Dakota. Yeah, they were like the first school to call me, I

think them, and uh maybe I'm not sure. They were like one of the first schools to call me. And coach Hansen was the assistant there. It's my guy, and you know, coach Smith had just got there. You know, I was fortunate enough to play for like two of the best coaches in college basketball, Smith and Beard. But anyway, Smith was there and they were building brand new facilities there. It was a little bit closer to home. You know both.

My family was in the Chicago area, so that was like a seven eight hour drive, and that the Summit League. There's some school like Indiana and you need Western Illinois in the Summit League. No, they're they're I don't know what league there. I e p U I I think is right now. They used to be who we uh POI. But you know, honestly, it just was it was the coaches. I I visited cold Oh it's cold Gate. It came down to Colgate in South Dakota. And I really liked

the guys over at cold Gate. And you know, my dad is kind of like my uh, you know, my basketball mentor um, and he really wanted me to go to Coldgate. And so it was really hard for me. I was like, man, I don't really want to go out here a small town out in New York and pick South Dakota and said, I just you know, right right, but hey, I love South Dakota. I'm not saying you don't like I'm okay, So South University South Dakota is located where it's in Vermillion, it's like an hour south

of Sioux Falls. Okay, how many people in Vermllion. But that's the thing. Colgate was even smaller. Cold was like three thousand people. Know, and I know all those schools in the Patriot League are like that, great schools, a ton of fun on campus, nothing to do outside of that. Uh South Dakota, how many people? How many people? How many students? Okay, it just came down to look, I love the coaches at Colgate, and I love the guys in South Dakota. But yeah, he is good. He's good.

He uh he was a good player too, and I think that would have been a good fit for me too, you know. But I just I really like coach Hansen and Coach Smith, and I felt like they were building something there. Uh. So I decided on that I want to do something. Normally I do this, I like to do it in chronological core, but I won't stop for one second. And I want you to think about something. Okay, you leave Air Force, you're sitting out at South Dakota.

If I would have told you at that moment that you would be a member of the Cleveland Cavaliers in the NBA, what percentage of you would have liked mm hmmm. I don't know, man. I always That's why I mean I wouldn't believe you. I wouldn't believe you, but I always but you might have somewhere, but people around you have been like no. It was something I could never say. It was something internally I felt like, man, I can

get there. I can get that. I just need a shot I needed and I need to keep getting better. But I felt like I can get there one day. Um, But it was I knew it was a small possibility, like if I was gonna get there, it was gonna have to be uh, you know, take everything I had in me, and you know, I'm gonna have to catch some brakes along the way. So you sit out in South Dakota, Okay, and you transfer what was that You're like, for you like, this is another year sitting out, another

year not hoping. What what were you just in the gym all the time? Was it tough for you mentally? What was that You're like, Yeah, that's where that was a tough year. Um for me, just I had some things going on with my family and then not being I tried to get a waiver, didn't get the waivers. So then when that news came in and uh, you know,

I was just trying to find my way. I was like, man, I had an injury and played one year and I had to sit out, and um, so I just was in the gym all the time, and uh, me and coach Hansen and coach g and I would be in there in the morning before class and practice, and I go back at night and pretty much every day and uh, you know, we just focused on pretty much three things. We focused on, Uh, shots off the move, you know, one or two dribble pull ups, and shots off the catch.

Like that's all I drilled. Um, just really trying to get good at those those things. And you know, it was it was a long year for sure, but it was looking back, it might have been the most important year of my college just because I got to really

improve on my game for that year. Now, all of a sudden, you're like, you you have the gift of having played some Division one basketball, You're a little bit older, your bodies kind of filled out, you mature, and you had a year of working just on your game with those coaches. All right. Now, Now, what was that first year like playing in South Dakota. It was hard getting into it. The first half of the season was not very good. I was I was our leading score. But

I was inefficient. And you know at South Dakota and now I played primarily point guard. Over there, I was playing the two, and uh, you know I was I was really struggling. I remember halfway through the season, I sat down with coach Smith and we had it. We had to talk and uh, I was a coach, just just give me that green light. I'm not gonna let you down. Just give me that green light, just because I didn't feel it from him. And you know, I

wasn't playing very well. We were solid, but um, you know, he's like, all right, I'll give you that green light, but if you if you mess up, and you know, I gotta go with somebody else type of thing. And he gave me the green light and gave me more, you know, ran more plays for me and gave me that confidence. And the second half of the season, I you know, played played unbelievable. Um, not unbelievable. I played well, and we won the league and uh, you know, we

had a really good season. We we won our league, but we lost on a buzzer beater in the conference tournament. You know how it is with the mid major, it's brutal and what I'm looking at the stats. I'm just you know, I'm looking at the stats of that game. What do you remember which game? And I t game No, the the end of season game, the one that ended your the one that ended ended that year. In the

conference tournament, Well, I remember I played pretty well. I mean I was, um, I think I had thirty or so and I had a shot. What happened was I had a shot in the corner with like twenty seconds left to put us up by three, and I thought that was it. You know, it was a tough shot. I thought like, okay, we're going And then Mike Tom I don't know if you remember Mike Dom you probably do my basketball. Yeah, yeah, good, really good college player. He came down and a big guy followed him. He

went like, we followed him right away. He went to the free throw line, made both an hour, up one, and then they filed uh one of our guys, a freshman who was a really solid player, but he over to the line and missed the one and one star up one, and they had this dude, this point guard. We knew they were trying to get the ball to down, so we were, you know, trying to not let him get in the point guard is pulled up and hit the shot at you know, with point nine seconds left.

That was it. And uh, that was really hard to deal with because like my dream was Division one, but my dream was n C A tournament. I mean I just kept school tournament when I was a kid. Yes, And then okay, so I think think about that heartbreak and then like you, I'm sure at the time, you're like, I'm never that's not not gonna happen for me. You fast forward two years later and you're in the final four, right, Like that's it is, like your path so interesting? Okay,

so you have a second year. Next year you played in the c B. I yeah, yeah, you get done. Mm hmm. Coach Smith is gonna e to Utah State, right, did you know you were gonna You're gonna grab transfer at that point? At that point you're like, I'm I'm playing really well, I can graduate. Did when did when did it? When did it happen that you? I want to grab transfer and go somewhere bigger. So obviously that was on my mind, but I think I was gonna stay with Smith. You know, we because we didn't get

to the tournament. I loved my teammates there, I love the university. But I was getting a little bit older, you know, I was getting almost twenty three. I think, um trying to remember that year. But I was like, all right, do I stay here at South Dakota, try to get to the tournament, finish what we started, or do I go somewhere bigger, take a chance on myself, try to get some exposure. But the risk there is

you go somewhere bigger and you don't play. Well. Now I got nothing, you know, unless you have what what they don't tell what, what people don't realize is like if you stayed the South Dakota, Okay, you didn't make the tournament, you your legend there, you could coach there, you brought in case, you live there. You do whatever. Dudes that transfer that second time you kind of if it doesn't work out, Like for you it worked out great, But for most people, you're kind of a man without

a home. You know, you don't have you get back to alumni games when you played, when you were at school for nine months, you know what I mean? Yeah, I know you hit it on the head. And that's something I thought about a lot. Was like I don't have a legacy anywhere. You know, I don't have a legacy. I don't have somewhere I can come back to, and like I love South Dakota, I was like, man, I probably won't be able to come back to here anymore

if I leave. Um. But you know, I talked about, you know, my faith is really important to me and my relationship for God, and that's something I prayed a lot about and sometimes you know, for most people call it that gut feeling. You know, I believe it's it's the Holy Spirit. And I just felt like I had to I had to go. And once Smith got the job at Utah State, this kind I knew it was like, all right, I probably gotta you know, go somewhere else and try to play against the best competition and see

see how I stack up. Why. I know, there was a bunch of schools, why Tech coach Beard Um, you know, pretty simple Northwestern. I like those guys a lot, and it was close to home. My family wanted me to go. There was Craton. I thought their style of play was good for me. But you know, I think I think something that has really helped me is just being uncomfortable and putting myself in uncomfortable positions and uh, you know,

stay going close to home. That was comfortable. Going to Crayton, similar system close to South Dakota, Like it was two hours from South Dakota, so I'd still be by my friends. Um, but Texas Tech like, and I remember I went to Texas Tech and I played pick up down there, and I didn't play very good. The other places stuff huh. They told me the story by the one what they say I played bad or what They're like, yeah, I

think he's better. He was better, they said. They were like, man, we loved him on tape and then he was down here was like yeah, and and Beer was like, yeah, he's tougher than ship. He's my kind of Guy's my kind of player. And and the other guys and staff are like, yeah, I don't know if he's athletic enough to play at this level. Yeah they still I mean, I still don't know if I'm athletic enough. But they that's that's right. I never heard that story. That's funny.

I didn't play very good down there. I wanted to play pick up just to see how they play the style of playing the system, and you know those guys guard uh and they were garden and pickup and it was different. Uh. But at the end of the day, I went down there because I knew I was going to get better, Like the resources they have, the player development, the g as, the coaches, like, I knew they were

gonna win. And you know, there was other schools recruiting me that have kind of fell that had fallen off. And I won't I won't say which school in particular, but I remember, you know, one one of the schools had gone to the tournament and they didn't go to the tournament and they kind of had excuses for it, um and they brought their whole team back, you know. And uh, my brother was just like my older brother Dan, he was just like man Beard would never let that happen.

He's like, he's gonna find a way to win. And and Tech lost like most of their guys. You know, we weren't projected to be very I know, you guys unbelievable. I mean, he's literally unbelievable. It's different. Okay. So I was like to play duke because because I want to get too final, I want to get to the NBA. But for all of us, like you and me who

grew up watching the n c A tournament. Now you're playing Duke neutral side game, you know, playing for tech, and I know you didn't play all that well, um no, not at all. What but like, what's that feeling like like Holy ship about to play? Do? Yeah? No, Duke is like the I don't know. It's like Yankees there the team everybody wants to play. Yeah, the Yankees, whatever,

the Bulls in the nineties, they're the top dogs. They're the team you know you see on TV, and it's just like they got legends that come out of their coach k So, like the hype was crazy. We were undefeated. I think they were number two, uh in the Garden, So it was electric in there. I think it was sold out too, I don't I don't know. I mean other than the final four. I mean, there's some really good atmospheres in the Big twelve, but that was something.

It was a really good experience. I wish I could have that one back. We all, do you know we we should have had that game? Yeah? Um, okay. Then you go on this magical run in the in the n c A tournament and you go all the way to the Final four, but it's like so much of it's a blur, right, Like you crushed Michigan State like that was. But I mean you hit all those you hit a bunch of threes against Gonzaga, and you guys,

I mean really sliced and dice Gonzaga. Um, when you close your eyes and you think back that, But our memories are different as fans. What what you what do you remember? Yeah? I remember the Gonzaga game, um, in Michigan State. You know the last three, you know the Virginia one. Obviously, I don't don't want to remember that, but I gotta move on, Like you remember the losses more than the wins. Right, that's a good point, um. But I remember the Gonzaga game and Gonzaga. Gonzaga was

really good and that was like to there. I was in training camp with Memphis with Brandon Clark, and you know that was their year. They thought that was their year. They were they were stacked. Um. And I just remember we played out of our minds. I mean we played

really well, like as a team. Um. And I just remember I remember one play where I got to steal and I threw it away and they dunked it, and um, I remember the play late where you know the Perkins Morrow dribble it off his foot already and then they pit the three and I was like, oh no, man, like here we go. This is what you see on TV every year. But um, that was a lot of fun. That was probably one of my most fun games. It was a complete game for myself, for the team, and

in Michigan State. You can't really explain the final four, um two people unless I mean people have been there. But like playing in it is hard to explain because it's just so different than any other time I've ever played, you know, eighty thousand people, seventy thousand whatever it was instead of fifteen. You know, even fifteen is not just sold out fifteen thousand, but seventy thousand. It's hard to

explain how cool that is. What happened in the time out, That's what I want to know, I said, not what happened at the time. You guys got the ball underneath your own basket and confusion, and then you guys got huh which game at the end? Tie games? Yes, what happened in the time out, we were, you know, we

wanted to get the ball to Jarret. You know, I you know, we there was discussions of maybe making him a deep go away and trying to do something else, but it happens so quick and you don't have much time, and you know, we just ended up with drawing up some some type of play to to get into the

ball and get a shot off and end up getting blocked. Um, you know, hindsight, it would have been and I wish we could have got a better look there, but they're a really good defensive team, and who knows what we would have gotten. Um what, what do you remember? What's that feeling like? Like I remember my last game and I just remember looking around in the locker room because I was I just assumed we were going to cut down.

My mentality was a lot like yours, where I just assume we're gonna win, We're gonna cut down the nets, We're gonna Final four. Like you don't don't like Lucy doesn't even come into the equation. When you wake up that morning and then you look around, you're like, man, I fucking love these dudes, like they're my guys. I can't believe I never get to play basketball with them again. It's different, though, when you only done it for a year. Do you remember what that was like in the locker

room afterwards? Devastation. Man, I mean you're talking like you got the Elite eight, Like you're almost there, we got the national championship. You know, you're like like right right there with the ball underneath your basket, tie game in regulation. So it's tough. You know. The only way I can really get past it is I can just focus on the positives and what I'm grateful for and like that we got that far. I could have gone to another school.

We won't even went to the tournament, you know, and I got to experience that and make it all the way there. But you know, personally, I have a lot of regret, Like I wish I would have been more aggressive, and I still have dreams about it. Man, I have dreams and I wake up and I'm like, man, uh go dreams that I like, I make the game when he said, and I'm just like, man, I wish I would have been more aggressive and more assertive earlier in that game because it's like it's just another game. But

it's not just another game. I know. I know. I would love to tell you that that goes away. Okay, it doesn't go away just like that. It's all right, man, life goes on the sun. The sun rises and it does totally okay, So you get done okay, and your thought process by now it's like, okay, now I can I know I can make the league, but it's harder than just that summer league was with who Atlanta. Okay, the draft comes and goes, you don't get picked. Did

you watch the draft? I watched the draft because I had some good draft workouts, and you know, I got a really good agent, um, Chris Emmons, and I got a bunch of draft workouts, and obviously I don't get those workouts if we don't go to the final four and we don't get that exposure, and if I don't play well in in that Michigan State team, I probably don't get that many workouts. Um. So I watched the draft because there was possibility maybe I get picked second

round later second round. But you're getting mad. I know it was a long no, no, not at all. I know it was a long shot. Um, but my agent is like, hey, there's a couple of teams that are considering you, and uh, the draft comes and goes and I get the call. It's like Hey, you to go to Atlanta for Summer League. We got to decide in like a minute because they're trying to fill Atlanta is trying to fill their roster summer league teams. So I said, if you think that's what we do, then we do it.

And I went to Atlanta. What was that like? Well, uh, you know, every step of the way for me, it's just pressure. You know, you gotta perform and because if I feel if I don't perform, then that's like it's like it's probably over limited opportunities. But I got to play twenty minutes a game with Atlanta in Summer League, and uh, I played okay, But I realized, like I

got to develop as a point guard. In college, I was like a tambo, and summer league I was like, I I really got to own in on my point guard skills and if I'm gonna play in the league, I gotta be a point guard probably six three white guy, not the most athletic. Um. I would be a tough point guard and make the right reads, but also, you know, make some plays here and there like not just you know,

that's the thing. I Kirk Heinrich actually lives in South Dakota and I would be working out with him sometimes. He's I grew up watching him with the Bulls. He was he was a great player, a really good player, playing the league for a while. And I remember him telling me like, hey, because at first I was like,

all right, I just gotta be sold. You look at like white Cards that played in the league, and they were just super tough, gritty, solid guys, make open shots, make their free throws, make their teammates better type of thing. And I remember, you know, I'm trying to do that, but Kirk's like, look, you still gotta when you get in there, you gotta show like that you can hoop you you you you gotta still be aggressive and uh

because otherwise you're just out there. So you know, he really uh you know, he was in my ear and helped me out with some things too. Okay, So then well and then then Memphis for training camp. Okay, yeah, what what was that? Like? Great experience? I love, I

love I love Memphis and staff and everybody there. Um, you know, the first time being in the NBA facility and being around NBA guys and playing and uh, you know, that was kind of like John Morant was there and you know, he's young and super talented, and I was like, you know, I saw a firsthand like how good that guy was gonna be? Saw competing with all these guys, and that was the first time Like that gave me a lot of confidence playing with those guys and knowing

that I'm you know, and I was playing well. We played pick up playing well. Um, that gave me a lot of confidence. But it's like, once you get to the NBA level, you gotta remind yourself. You can't defer, you know, you gotta remind like I had a constant re mydself, I belong here, you know, go out and be aggressive, be a killer, you know that type of thing. You talked about your relationship with God. It's not it's not uh like from a book. It's not true religion.

It's more kind of your relationship and spirituality to it. How How did how does that helped you? Because it's not easy, right, Like you're going place and you think you play well, and then now you're off to the G League and you're with new guys and your confidence is tested, Like, how does that play a part in what you've been able to do? In terms sustaining kind of your will. Yeah, great question. I'm really I'm really glad you asked me that. Um, you know, I found

I was in college in South Dakota. I was searching for answers. You know, I grew up Catholic, but I was just like, is this you know, because everybody grows up believe in different things? So like, am I right because I grew up this way and they grew up that way? And what they believe that they're right? You know, somebody grows up half across the country or across the world. Everybody believes different things. So I just started searching for truth,

and you know, I found that that Jesus was the truth. Um, you know, son of God rose from the dead, and so then I started just looking at what he said and how he lived and he showed us how to live. And you know, I started developing my relationship with God. I realized it wasn't about you know, rules and traditions, but more about um, you know, just having my heart being posture towards him, Like do I love others the

way he loves me? Sort of? That's what it all comes down to, the Bible, It all comes down to love. Love others as yourself, right. But you know, with with the game of basketball, and halfway through the season I told you that one year in South Dakota, my game kind of took off. What I didn't tell you is, you know, my my relationship with God kind of took off.

And I realized, like I talked a lot about pressure, you know, there's constant pressure with the line of work I'm in, and you know, you've you've lived and played at a really high level. And uh, A lot of guys struggle dealing with that, and I struggle dealing with it and for a long time. And if I if I played bad, I felt like this big you know, I felt like I was I was worthless in a way. And that's not what God tells us, you know, he tells us what our worth is based on, you know,

are how we treat other people. So what I'm getting at is my relationship with God. It made me realize if I play poorly or if I play great, God's love for me doesn't change. And then in my game of golf, because I just had this piece in me and like I knew, no matter how I played, his love for me wasn't going to change. You know, I still had salvation through Jesus, and I just started killing. It wasn't because I was. I was. You know a lot of people think that prayer like Lord, help me

play my best, and that was me. I do that. I still do that, but it's like he doesn't really care how we play. It cares how we treat other people. But I just I had this piece inside me once in my relationship with him, and I just I started playing way better. Um, you're in Canon, right, and where were you when you got the call that you get to go play for the Caps. I was in Memphis. Actually, I was in Memphis. I was walking to because I was with the G League team in Memphis and we

get tickets to the Grizzlies games. It was a Grizzlies Rockets game. I remember it like it was yesterday. And I get called to uh called by my agent. I'm on the side of the street and he calls. The first thing he says is this. He says, hey, man, I regret to inform you you're no longer with the Memphis Hustle. So I'm just like, I'm like okay. He's like,

pack your bags are going to Cleveland. You got a two way contract with the cast So, like, you know that that feeling we talked about earlier where I always felt like I could play in the league, but I knew it was gonna be tough, and I didn't know like it was ever gonna happen, but I believed it could you know, it was happening. And uh, you know, I sat there on the on the curb and I just you know, I thank God. And the first person

I called, um it was my dad. And not to put a damper on the mood at all, but my dad's you know, currently only got a couple of months to live. You know, he's got h he's got a disease in his brain, and only given him a couple of months left. And but but I say that because you know, before my dad, before I got that call from my agent, I got a call from my dad. And my dad has lived in Cleveland for about five

years now, so he's been in Cleveland. Wow. And he called me about an hour before that and he said, you know, he got bad news from the doctor. His cancer was spread. Okay, Well, an hour later I got a call from my agent telling me I was going to Cleveland and so I called him and he just said, you know, you just one of the worst days in my life just became one of the best. And it's given me a lot of time to be with him. And uh, you know, he was at the first game,

and it was really cool to have him there. So that was the moment that I called my brother, my mom and people who have helped me get to this point, you know, back home, my coaches and stuff. Uh, that's why I'm special because so many people have helped me get here. Right. Nobody does it alone, so you share it with them. You know, I got, I got, I got two more things that I'm tight on time. I apologize because it's it's so good. The first game he played was against the nixt Yeah, what was the shot?

You said, Floater? I mean, I mean, I don't shoot that side a whole lot um, but pump fake right foot right float. It look kind of awkward, but it's just it went down and it felt pretty good. That's my only bucket at this point because I only played a couple of games so so so that that leads me into my second question to the to the six ft two to five eleven white dudes out there, that everybody's like, you ain't got no shot, dude. You can go and pay your check and playing an a U team,

maybe playing college. You're a guy that I'm sure people are like, you're not playing right. One scholarship offer to the Air Force out of high school. You don't even go to the Air Force to go to their prep, and you play when you're there in the South Dakota, then the Tech. Okay, then you've scratched and clawed and you've made it. You have whatever you do the rest of your life. You have done what only four people get to do a year out of eight billion people

on Earth. How do you persevere through the hard times? Yeah? Good question. Um, I don't think I've made it, you know, I put on that jersey, but I'm still constantly pursuing, you know, make a career out of it and be better, um every day. But how do you persevere through the hard time? For me, it was my faith, you know, um.

And for those five eleven and six two guys are those guys who are underrated, it's just chase your dreams, man, Like everybody's gonna tell you what you can and can't do or what you should do do what you love and go after it as hard as you can go after it. And if you don't make it, you don't make it. But you gotta go for it. And that's how I felt, and that's why I made the decisions I made. And UM, you know, here I am and hopefully I'll keep on going. Hey man, this is an

awesome talk. Um. I'm so sorry to hear that your dad's struggles, but I gotta run and I really appreciate it. Yeah, no, I really enjoyed it. Doug. Good to talk to you, man. Thanks man. All right, all right, Uh quick reminder, The Doug Gottlieb Show is daily daily on Fox Worts Radio dot com. You can stream us anywhere you go. You can download the podcast as well, and you can listen to us live three or six Eastern twelve three Pacific Fox Sports Radio dot Com stream the show. We've got

great interviews football, baseball, basketball as well. Anyway, by thanks to Matt Mooney and to you for joining us. I'm Doug gotlib In. This is all ball