Hey, what welcome in, UM, Doug gli Ben. This is All Ball, All Basketball, all the Time. UM. My guest for this version, this podcast episode of All Ball is um is a guy who I mean, he's he's actually super interesting young career right and a dude who UM has already spent seven years working in the n b A and now you can follow him on social media at Scott with Brian is Brian Obringer and he'll join
us in moments. A guy who was a high school tennis player, I love basketball, went to the University of Maryland, helped out, was a manager with the Turps, and then said, you know, and I love hoop, I want to get involved in the NBA and has some really interesting thoughts from his time in the NBA and from the breakdowns that he does. And you can follow him again on social media. Before we get to Brian, though, I want
to share a couple of of additional thoughts. You know, last episode, obviously we had Mike Martin from from Brown I talked a little bit about UH college basketball and this season, you know, saw Kade Cunningham play and Kade um Look, I think he's one of probably three guys and they're all playing in college. You could be the number one overall pick. But but Kate is really interesting. Um obviously, you know, having his brothers an assistant coach, he's a great way to get a really good player.
But the interaction between the brothers is fascinating me. I've I've talked to the Mike Boyden. Of course, if you want to download his podcast retells his story. I've talked to some of the assistant coaches, I've talked to other people around the program, and granted, there's not the student
interaction whatever this year that there normally is. And then I've talked to other coaches who didn't get Kay Cunningham, and they're like, he's the real deal, not just in terms of how he is as a basketball player, but how he is a kid. And like that family, he's not going to stay a second year. But they're like, if there's any ever a family that a kid would stay a second year, like, that's the family. And so look, he he made up. I thought it wasn't necessarily a
dumb move. I I liked I like that in a tie game in transition, he attacked and looked to make a play. When they lost the TCU, the game in which first half he doesn't score point the student section which did have people and it was chanting overrated, and then he took over in the second half. I didn't like the decision he made, but I like this this
idea sometimes of holding for a last shot. Um. He is really interesting to me, like sometimes and I get like you in that particular instance, in a tie game, you only want to get a shout up with four seconds or so to go. See there's takes losing out of the equation, which is exactly what happened in a questionable block charge called I thought it was a charge. Actually I thought Oaklaham State, you know, got back in
transition just in time, planted their feet. But the point is more, I can't tell how impressed with I am with his ability to play all over the court. You know, Evan Mobley is another guy who could be the number one overall pick, and I think he's a stud player. What when I'm impressed by with Kade Cunningham and I'll give my player revals we get ready for the NBA draft.
Is haven't heard anybody say anything negative about attitude, work ethic, having his brother around, no entitlement like an everyday dude, and then you watch him play and the way really good NBA players play like they can handle and handle it like a point guard coming off a ball screen. He can play out of the post, and he can play off the basketball shooting the ball as well. So
it's easy to be impressed with a guy. It's like Anthony Edwards last year, so explosive, so explosive, and the thought was like, all right, needs to become more of a guard, and he's to shoot the basketball a little bit better, needs to defend with a little bit more energy. But you can see he's got an NBA body, and somebody was the field around him. But there wasn't a he didn't have the post game. He wasn't a creative passer,
and he definitely wasn't the adept ball handler. He just a beast athletically and a potentially a takeover a game athlete in score. I just I've watched Kay Cunningham and I thought Penny hardaway when I saw him in high school, but I watched him now and I do remember Penny was before injury set in, was really athletic. He's a lot more athletic than Penny Hardaway was, But it's it's the type of player that can play on the post, can play with the ball, can play without it as well.
Could he defend better? Yeah, could he shoot? Could he shoot a higher percentage? Of course, you know. But his good job getting the line, good job playing off ball screen, and a great job I think of raising the level of a team one that. And they're not great in conference play. They've been swept by TCU, although they do have a big win over Texas Tech on the road.
We'll see what they do against Texas this weekend. But considering Oklahoma State under Mike Boyden had traditionally struggled the first month and a half of conference play and then figured it out all all three seasons previously slow start, and even when Brad Underwood was that coach, they struggled out of the gate in the Big twelve and then adjusted, um that he's he's got that winning thing. Where give me the ball, I'll win the game for you. And
they beat Kansas because of him. They win games because of him, not in spite of him. Really a rare one and done type player, and I think a rare get for whoever gets him in the number one and number two pick in the upcoming NBA Draft. All right, let's let's get to our guest. Binal Riggers was a scout in the NBA doing video first seven years. Now he does it, produces his own content. He joins us
down the Elball Podcast. Be sure to catch the live edition of The Doug Gottlieb Show weekdays at three pm Easter noon Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio app. All right, let's welcome in, uh, Bryan or Bryan Um. Let's let's start at the beginning of your basketball life. Where'd you grow up and what were your first memories? Uh? Yeah, So I grew up in Maryland. I was a big, big Maryland and Wizards fan growing up. You know, love the Gilbert Arena's teams. You know a
little bit of MJ's Wizards era. Obviously, I've worked for Gary Williams his last couple of years at the University of Maryland as a student manager type those gravest fast guest teams that were pretty good. Uh. Ended up then working for the Washington Wizards for six years. I was the head video coordinator for them. Bryan, Bryan, Bryan, Bryan, You're going. You're going away too fast. You don't like hell, this is about you row. Okay, you you went, you
went to college. I said, where you grew up? Like I'm a wizard, and he started zooming through. Okay, you go specifically where, like I grew up in Orange, California, Badio, El Medina. Like my first basketball memories, my dad was an assistant Long Beach State. Used to go and run around at games and UNLB your friends, no mistake, were the only teams that drew. They'd come to town right and then we became U c l A fans, And
I wasn't really like your fans. So you grew up specifically where I grew up specifically in Rockville, Maryland, and uh yeah, you know, my my basketball uh you know, at least before college wasn't all that exciting. I mean I remember, you know, I was at the Maryland miracle minute they lost the duke when we were up with ten with like fifty four seconds left. That was definitely just on TV. That was crazy. Yeah, pretty heartbreaking memory.
But yeah, actually, you know, when I was in high school, I was part of that kind of moneyball generation that I read that book Can really wanted to work in baseball growing up, and that's kind of what I loved, uh, you know, up until college at least, but uh yeah, I just kind of realized once I got to college basketball was was my real love, and uh kind of went all in trying to work work there. What what was it about basketball that means, you know, just just
an unbelievably beautiful game. I mean, honestly, just just pick up every day myself and I'm watching you know, games NonStop. I just love everything about the game. You know, I just, uh, I think it's, you know, the best game that's that's not individual. It's all about the cohesion of five guys playing together and doing it as a group and playing hard, and you know, usually those are the things that end
up end up winning games. And you know, you know, obviously, when when you're in sync and you're playing with four other guys who who love each other and play well together, there's just no better feeling. It's interesting. So I've been I've been coaching a U basketball now for a couple of years. I coached it with my dad when I was still a player, and then you know, when I got into broadcasting, I probably shouldn't continue to do it,
just it's hard with the time and kids. So now I have I have We have a fourteen that I don't coach. I just occasionally help with practice. We have a thirteen with two thirteens, and we have a twelve and eleven new teams and the third team, you is, it's gotten to be really good and there I think if you asked the parents honestly, they would say, like, individually, our kids are just okay, but collectively, now that we have this really strong group, they're they're like a a good,
solid team. We're not good enough yet to compete with like the the super elite, crazy talented teams yet, but it's one of those things where I'm kind of I'm committed to these families, like, look, I don't know, well, we probably will never win one of the big tournaments, okay, but your kid's gonna get better and they're gonna learn to play as a team because I think that I think that lasts longer than Hey, I'm gonna go join this team with a couple of superstar dudes and win
a tournament but have no real kind of uh no real really piece of the pie. You know. I was just I was the guy that stood in the corner and shot the ball when it came to me, right, So it's it's interest. I feel the same way. I love There's nothing like going to a park right with four your buddies, or picking up a couple of dudes or whatever and then running the and just running the court, regardless of how good other dudes are, but just playing
as a team like that. I think that's the best part of the sport, is that a team can beat more talented individuals if they figure out each other's strengths and weaknesses and play together. No, absolutely, And yeah, like I said, you know, I grew up. I love the the Gilbert Arenas Wizards team, which obviously didn't do a tremendous amount of winning in the playoffs. But you know, Karen Butler to off juice was was so fun to watch every night. He played unbelievably hard. You know, Antoine
was an incredible score. Obviously, you know, Gilbert's one of the biggest tragedies and basketball history. How you know how talented he was and how much uh winning they could have done if he had stayed healthy. But uh, yeah, I mean to be perfectly honest, and I was a high school tennis player. I didn't really you know, love it until I got to college. And once I got there, you know, I played pick up at the rec center probably almost every single day, and just my love for
the game grew exponentially. And you know, you end up playing three hours every single day with you know, fifty other guys at the rec center there, and it's just, uh, you know, a tremendous bonding experience and and so fun when you're winning and playing hard and playing together and uh yeah, it's just it's a beautiful, beautiful game. And I was lucky, lucky enough to get to spend a long time working in it. Okay, so uh, let's let's
go to Maryland before Who's the point card? Before bass guys? Uh, it was what's the dude? I'm trying to think, what's the dude's name? Tinker with going to throws and didn't, and then it was a disaster when he came back. Uh John Gilchrist, John Kilchrist John, because that was that was my that was I think I almost feel like that was like the downfall of Jerry really is that he suffered through after those back to back fours. Want to be in a championship obviously what billing Ovo went
through and they went to their first Bottle four. Oklahoma State went through after the OH four and oh five teams. Um, I think Georgia tected this after they were running up in OH four. Was we've seen you know, Syracuse has gone through this after they went to Fottle fours where you go to a final four, you win that champiship. Now you can recruit anybody you want, right, but they're
not Okay, geez, they're not you're kind of guy. They're not the guys that the program was built around, right, And they're a little bit a little bit entitled, and their expectations are to just show up and hoop and win, and there's like a a a skip of a step and they're not as invested in the program. That's my outside perception of what happened during the Gilt Christ era. Is that a fair perception is somebody who was on campus at the time. Uh yeah, So you know, I
think I got to campus probably right after him. You know that the start of Gravest and Eric has when when things were a little bit better. But you know that that sounds about right. I mean, I think Gary was definitely better, uh without the five star roots, without the McDonald's all Americans. He he certainly didn't love to love to recruit in the first place. Didn't love to recruit those guys in particular because you know, like you said that they tended to come with a sense of entitlement.
And you know, he was much more into the the vasquez Is and the Juan Dixons and the Blakes and the guys that were under recruited and the and the up having a chip on their shoulder, and that he could you know, push relentlessly hard to achieve a lot more than anybody thought. But uh, yeah, Gilchrist definitely, you know, besides that moment in the a SEC tournament didn't work
out tremendously well. And then you know, actually the year he ended up retiring after was after Jordan Williams's sophomore season where he went to the draft. You know, I think was a high second round pick, but he left too early. You know, could have come back and been a tremendous player as a junior and you know, ends up flaming out of the NBA and after like a season. Um,
you know, it was just way too mature. To go, and I think, you know, after that happened, Gary was just kind of done with it and I decided to beat have enough dealing with that kind of of nonsense. But yeah, he definitely did a lot better with uh you know the guys that were thought of lesser for sure. Um, okay, so you get done in college grad you like grad assistant and then how did you get how did you
get into league? So it's funny. Actually, so after after Gary's last season, I emailed Tommy Shepard, you know, who's now the Wizard's GM. He was the assistant GM at the time, and honestly, I just wanted to, uh to
pick his brain. I just asked if I can take him to lunch, you know, asked him a few questions, find out, uh, you know, some tips and things from him, and I happened to mention what I had done, you know at Maryland in the film room and everything there, and uh, you know, at the time, the Wizards had one guy working like a hundred twenty hour weeks in the video room who was just completely overwhelmed, and uh, you know, they said they could use some help, and
I got to come in an interview with him. Uh, and then I actually ended up interning for the Wizards my last two years of college, just working you know, for a lot less hours in their film room even remotely. Um. And then right when I graduated Maryland, actually I got to become up full time as the head video coordinator, traveling with the with the Wizards. Okay, so here's my question. You've been a basket ball fan. You didn't play basketball
in high school. You started playing basketball and loving the game in college from the moneyball idea of it. You understood the analytics probably above that of many of the older guys, even in the Wizards front office, right because because you know, we were well we were raised that. Not not anti analytics, but that just wasn't the way which data was collected or really deciphered. Right. But you also hadn't studied the game the way that you study the game or have to allow others study the game
when you're cutting up film. So when you first start watching film of NBA games and breakdowns, what what I'm just I'll just tell you personally, like as a player, what jumped out to me I remember was, um, so my after my junior years, uh, I think is a during my sophomore my junior year. Um, there used to be a rule where you could go and work out with NBA teams. You just had to pay your own way. Kid. They couldn't pick up anything. They could give you a jersey and shorts, a T shirt. So I went to
a Trailblazer Mark working tine hook me up. I went to a Trailblazers mini camp and this was Germaine O'Neil was maybe in his second year in the league. So no one knew how the Germaine O'Neil was gonna be. Um. And this is when they were the Trail the jail Blazers, right, but they had dudes. They had Rashid, they had Greg Anthony,
they had Bonds. I mean, they had fucking dudes, right, And so the couple of things I remember my first foray into professional basketball was one, goddamn everybody's long, right, Like everybody's long. You know, Uh, There's there's not one
guy that you're like, oh, well, he's a normal. Like everybody walks in and they're like and condors and which which makes the way I I see basketball as a player is you know through windows and you know where a pass is gonna go where it an angle for a drive, where the space is to create a shot. And these windows close up so fast because even when they're beaten, they're not really beaten because they just they have long arms and big hands and and great ability
to react. So the length of players was studying to me. And how much like you you think you've been around good shooters, you know. And I used to play pick up all of Scotty Brooks. It's interesting about about the Wizards. So Scotty was alleged he grew up. I'm again Orange County. He played U c Irvine and he and guy's name Todd Thornton and William McGee and and Todd Murphy, all guys that played in the NBA and played overseas. They all would play pick up all at this a couple
of spots in Orange County. And so I had seen like how they could shoot in games, you know, But I don't think I had a healthy respect for just how fucking good they were, right, Like, I don't think I just don't think it translates to people. It's like I had a conversation with uh, with um somebody the other day and they were they were trying to tell me like, well, you know NBA players only, so you know,
I was like, okay, you have to understand. NBA players shoot, you know, from three and fifty from two in an NBA game against NBA players. If you put an NBA player you know, worked out in a gym, they shoot like ninety. It's unbelievable how good they are. I don't even guys that can't shoot can shoot, they just can't shoot in an NBA game. Right, So those are the
two things that jumped out to me. Yeah, you're a college kid, you start breaking down film, working all hours of the night, or what do you remember about the first couple of things you thought and learned about the NBA that you didn no previously. Yeah, the first thing comes to mind, definitely is a little bit of a story. But uh, you know that the fact that just not
everybody loves the game. You know. I went from Maryland, like I said, where Gary would be custom guys out if we're only up fifty at halftime against Longwood, Uh, to my first NBA experience being uh, you know, the locker room with the Wizards. JaVale McGhee, Andre Blotch, Nick Young, Jordan Crawford at the time walking in at halftime down twenty laughing about it. Um, so you know that that was just it was a terrible culture at the time.
And you know, you realize, like I said, a lot of those guys just just do it for the paycheck. They do it because they're seven feet tall, and you know that they're happening to be great at it, But it doesn't necessarily mean that they, you know, really love the game and are all out nuts about basketball like like we are for example. Um. You know, so you definitely see that, and absolutely you know that the part about how talented every single guy is, you know, just
jumps off the page. I mean, you know, we we'd have some games. Remember Phil Prescy I think was on like a ten day contract with the Celtics, and we didn't even think he would play. He was like, you know, fourteenth on their depth chart or something, and so, uh, he actually wasn't even on the scouting report. He ends up getting in the game and gives us like twenty
and they they win the game. And after the game, Randy Whitman comes in the film room like, why the funk wasn't Phil Prescy on the scatting report, you know, just because yeah, you know he's on a D exactly, Yeah, and he killed us. So you know, you see that all the time. Guys that are fourteen fifteen guys on the roster, guys that are you know, forty that you think are about done, and they come out and you know you take them lightly or think they can't do something,
and that's when they kill you. So yeah, you absolutely see that. And then you know, last all, I'll give you a two. I mean you kind of mentioned the the analytics, and I definitely came in the game like thinking that I was gonna be a huge analytics guy. And you know, like I said, I grew up on
the moneyball stuff. But once you really get to it, once you're in all the coaches meetings, you know, watching film with guys that have done it for thirty years and and you know, just pour over every single detail, every little meticulous aspect of everything in the game. You know, you really realize that the analytics and the stats so very little of how much actually goes into winning basketball games.
So it's funny. I actually started probably very extreme on that analytics end and ended up drifting where now I'd say, um, you know, almost all eye tests, because I think the stats just do a pretty terrible job overall measuring you know what, what really wins basketball games? What? What do you think it misses? Uh? You know, where where do you start? I mean, you know, even Darryl Moorey, like the biggest analytics GM, obviously he has some quote that's like,
you know, the basketball box scores is absolutely worthless. You know how many people just look at, Oh, Zach Lavine's a bucket. He scored you know, forty points tonight and don't see that. You know, he missed ten reads on pick and rolls, he missed five rotations, you know, he uh balls, hockey assists, all those things don't even you know, don't even get measured for the most part. Um, you know. So it's that and then, like I said, it's also
just competitiveness. I think defense we don't really measure at all well with with the box score. I mean, you know, there's some things of plus minuses and things like that that I think do okay, but uh, yeah, you know, I think defense is almost impossible to measure. Most of the best defenders are the ones you know getting lit up by the best offensive players every night, so obviously
you know, their stats take a little bit of a beating. Um. But yeah, you know, it's just so hard to capture the impact of of five guys playing on a string and being locked in together. Uh, you know, with the statue sheets, it's that that's a fascinating thing. Now, what are your thoughts on plus minus? You know, it definitely has has some value and and there's a few ways to adjust it where certainly it's it's it's worth at least being a piece of the puzzle, um, you know.
And I'm a believer of like Rich Show, I think always had a saying that was eyes, years and numbers. Right, numbers have to be a part of the equation. But you also have to you know, pass the eye tests. You have to listen to what coaches, what scouts are saying, um, you know. And I think plus minus, for example, like has always been used against the guy like like Tamar de Rosen because you know, okay, in the ten minutes
he's not on the court. Uh, sometimes his teams have done a little better than the forty minutes he's on. But you know that they discount that almost every single team he's on is won fifty games year after year after year, and he has such an overall, you know, tremendous impact on the game, and they just crush a player like him just because he can't shoot threes. You know, that doesn't mean that he's still not a an incredibly
efficient scorer. He makes so many plays for his teammates, and like I said, he's played winning basketball so long for Toronto. He he gets to San Antonio in his first year, they lose, you know, they're starting point guard for the season. Everybody thinks they're gonna be all full and they win forty eight games his first year there. So, you know, I think there's just so many guys like that that that the stats just uh, you know, failed to fail to appreciate fully. Okay, So who is the
least appreciated guy from your perspective? Is is it Tomorrow? Yeah? I think long term, you know, at least over the last ten years or so, I think he's gotten the most uh most undue hate. Probably. I think you know that Ben Simmons is up there as well. I think we get so lost in the fact that, yeah, obviously, you know, he doesn't have a jumper, and that's a big uh fatal flaw that attempts to show up in
the playoffs. But that doesn't mean, you know, like I said, he doesn't still impact the game incredibly by being one of the best by probably defenders in the league, and being an incredible passer and his feel for the game and uh, all those things. I think our y Philadelphia's first in the East right now, and he's he's playing amazing basketball and if you look online, you still see nothing but people killing him every single day for his shot. Uh,
he's up there. And the last guy I'll say, you know, James Harden too. Obviously, he's he's had playoff failings. He's uh, you know, had questionable commitment at times and some things definitely that that drive me nuts. You know. It also drives me nuts when you hear that he's like a ball hog or selfish. When he's leading the league and assists, He's had plenty of seasons ten eleven assists a game.
He's you know, you watch him play. I mean, his field for the games off the charts is his floor vision is incredible, and he's he's also a better defender than than people think, um, you know, and I think it's it's sad now that he's he felt he had to go to to Brooklyn and a super team because you know, he was just getting crushed by the narratives of you know, not being good enough to get over the hump with a with a team that that wasn't
amazing quite frankly. And you know, now that's what happens. All these guys us feel the way of the need then to join forces and go to a super team just so they can get a ring to you know, to appease like vot like no, like validates that somehow
that validates their career when it shouldn't. You know, It's it's interesting, It's like, and I have to be very cautious of this myself, right like, we we can't make getting a ring the only thing that matters, because when we do, then guys pursue a ring and then suddenly they're the bad guy, right Like, Yeah, I mean that's that's really, that's that's really Kevin. The story of Kevin
Durant's career. Right whereas he's he was playing Oaklhoma City, Okay, and he was playing two on five against the Warriors. I know they're up three one, I get okay, But yeah, Steven Adams is a non story and Andre Robertson is a non score. Um trying to think who else they had? Who is there? Um? Who else? Who was who was Dana Baca? Who's who's Bacca is on that team? Right?
Then Abakabaka shoot, but then you have Russ is not a shooter, right, So I, but I remember when they're playing against the Warriors, the Warriors put two guys in his zone and just two guys right there at the elbows. So when when he catching catching at his elbows, he was constantly double teamed where there's just nowhere to go. So he goes somewhere where like, hey, we're gonna give
you all the space in the world. He gets all the space in the world, gets Lebron on an island, and like, you can't guard that fucking guy, and he wins a couple of championships, would have won a third one, and suddenly he's the bad guy because he got tired of, you know, trying to carry a team that wasn't constructed to the way which it could truly show how magnificent the scory he is. So I and and look again, I'm I won't apologize for some of the social media
stupid ship. He's done with the burner accounts whenever, and and maybe for uh, you know, his lack of understanding of how other people would handle him leaving. And I do think there's a right way and a wrong way to leave, even if you do leave all that stuff, I actually understand, like I would be and it had to be really really one on five is hard, right, I'll give you. I'll give you a story real quick. So obviously I wasn't a scorer ever since high school.
And my first year playing professionally, I was playing with a team called euro Great. We won the Russian Championship, with the first team not named Sescat to win the Russian Championship, and we were I joined in January and we were stacked, and we had four or five good Russians, we had three good Lithuanians, we had the best player in Ukraine. And the reason that matters is they all
counted as Russians. And then we had Willie Burton and me and I played this American that year and we kicked everybody's ass and we were so good that we won the league by like four games, and so we
advanced automatically to the semi finals of the playoffs. Well, when won the league by four games, there were still two games left to be played, and I was twenty four and all these other guys are late twenties and thirties, and somehow they were like, we're gonna go take a brick, like they got to all really got to go home.
One of the Russian dudes lived in Spain. He went to Spain and all of a sudden, like you know, I was a I would I would start some in six man some and suddenly like they all pieced out and I was playing. I played against SSCA with the juniors, and like one or two of the bench dude like the bench strubby dudes, right, and um, I was, you know, like now a sudden. It was on one part, it was awesome because we're practicing. We have two games left
and once against SESCA. Home was against I think mineral Voda, right, mineral Water is actually a town in South Russia. And so like now I'm the dude, We're like we're running high sideball screens all this ship. For me, it's really good. And we get into a game and everywhere I go there's two dudes. And remember like again I'm not a score,
I'm a pastor. I'm a facilitator. Like that's you know, when you want to do pro, you gotta do what you do best, you know, but in this particular setting, they're like, do we need you to We need you to go get buckets. So my first game playing with that group, I was like two of fourteen or something against Seska, and I mean I missed some good looks and I missed a dunk coming down the lane I had.
I actually I just shot poorly. But it was so hard, so much harder when there was no space to do what I wanted to do because I could get by guys. But then the second guy we alway struggle without so used to passing off it. And the second game against the lesser team I was I was much better. But it was one of those things to where everybody thinks they want to be the dude, but you also have
to have space to do what you do. And I think you you nailed it with the narrative, right, we create these narratives of you're only an all time grade if you win a champion, but you can't be a champion unless you have other dudes with you and you sometimes you can't organically allow that to happen on its own right. You just can't. So I think it's really hard for these guys. The herd and thing. I'll disagree
with you. I'll push back on this point. I know that we pick him, we pick on him for for some of the defensive stuff, but like, he doesn't guard. I mean, he just doesn't. And now he I don't think he's as bad as Kyrie is, and I'll explain why in the second um, but but he he doesn't guard. And then there are times in which in the playoffs he tries to guard. And I think that it's one of the things that limits him offensively is you go through a season playing one way, and then you get
to the playoffs. They're not giving him the fouls the way they used to give it to him, and he's trying to guard, and so he's exhausted because playing both ends is really hard. Um. And and then I don't I agree with you. He is not selfish, he's magnificent with the ball. But what they were doing in Houston allowing him to just you know, dribble, dribble dribble, create the mismatch dribble, dribble dribble. It becomes a hard watch, and it takes away from how magnificent his skill set is.
I always said this is my thing on James Harden. He's incredible. Okay, might be the best offensive player in basketball, but I can't stand to watch him now. I say that, and I actually really like how he's playing with Brooklyn because he's back to being more a facilitator and he's he's showing off how good a passer he is, and that kind of stuff. That kind of stuff shows like
what people don't understand about James Harden. Uh is painfully honest. No, absolutely, I mean, yeah, he You know Houston, You've got to remember that last year they're playing without a center. You know, they played p J. Tucker's six five playing playing center. And probably the best aspect of James Harden's game over his career has been his pick and role passing. You know, so Darryl More, he can say all he wants that that they have the most official offensive ever, James Harden
is the most efficient player ever. But you know, you know, in the player offs, you need a you need a mix, you need somebody that can get their own shot in the mid range. You need, you need Kevin Durant, you know, you need you need guys like that. You can't only take threes or only play you know, robot ball. And
that's what they never understood in Houston too. You know, they just became so predictable in the playoffs, and the Lakers just you know, pressed up like crazy on threes and and helped like crazy at the rim and and Houston just absolutely refused, uh to take a mid range jumper, which just makes no sense. And yeah, you know you're seeing again Harden has real pick and roll options. Now
he has talent around him. And you know, the narrative thing, Kevin Durant wasn't good enough without without a ring, so he goes to Golden State, gets rings, and then that still doesn't validate him, so he goes back to Brooklyn trying to kind of do his own thing with Kyrie. But then they're still not good enough to win just
for those two, so they need more help. And you know, now the narrative just continues to cycle and cycle, and you know Harden's defense, like I said that, you know, he definitely deserves criticism his lifestyle I think has definitely caught up with him a lot in the playoffs. You can't be going out as much as as he does over the season and expect to have the energy to to do it on both ends. Like I said, for forty five minutes a night. Um, you know, but you
saw it like against the Clippers the other night. One thing I think he's really underrated in is his post defense. And he's just so hard to move, you know, for even Kauai in a bak and all these guys are trying to post him up, and his you know, the way he resists post ups is is pretty incredible. So I think he definitely, like I said, is better than people think. But I do agree with you, you know, he's marginally better than Kyrie on that end, and still
definitely definitely not great. Uh. Well, here's my thing with Kyrie, and some of this is inside infol right from people who have played with them or people that have coached him or been around people the coaching. It's it's not n Carrie is bad on defense. He's not very good
at It's that Kyrie is. He doesn't know he's been out on defense, right, or he refuses to you know, the the the easiest example that I like to give is they played the Celtics, they played the Bucks in the playoffs when he's with the Celtics, and their defensive scheme was to switch everything except for Kyrie, you know, which is basically what Golden State does with Steph right where he stays home and everybody else, everybody else switches
and under no uncertain circumstances did they want him guarding nice right there? Like that's we don't want that, Okay, We're gonna protect you. And he kept switching out on your honest and not just switching out and then switching out and like challenging you honest, and you know, these the coaches are like, what what the funk? Dude, Like, we're actually trying to protect you so that you can be the great offensive player that you are and not
have to worry about defense. And you know, here do you you know, and not have to worry about, you know, guarding the you know, the best score maybe in the league, and you know, you're you're doing your own thing, which is why that's the frustrating part about Kyrie. It's not that he's better. And I agree with you on on Hart, and that's a great point that he's actually a really
good He's incredibly strong, he's big. He is a good post defender, which always is funny to me when when teams, you know, try and attack him and I saw him the post. No dude, take him out in the court. That's when he just lays you know, and then he you know, he olas. And it used to work in Houston when they had Capella because he could ola and go ahead, go to the rim. You got that big fellow waiting to block your shot, you know. So Okay, so let me let me ask you about about about
Brooklyn does it in the end? Do you think it works? I think, you know, I think they definitely have a tremendous chance to at least make the finals. To me, I think they're the best, best equipped team in the East. Uh. You know, I still don't buy Milwaukee as as a playoff team. I still you know, Philly obviously he's gonna
struggle with with Ben's shot. Um, you know, they play like they did against the Clippers, which was probably the best defensive game I've ever seen Kyrie play, quite frankly, and he was, you know, probably the best game i've ever seen him played period, considering how good he was offensively to um, you know, if they're that locked in, absolutely, But like you said, I mean the million dollar question is, you know, you don't know if Kyrie just decides in
in in a month that he's gonna take two weeks to go, uh canvass around the country and do whatever else uh he wants to do. I mean, he's just a tremendously bizarre individual that nobody has really been able to figure out completely. And uh, yeah, you know, I think it's a huge test to a first time not only head coach, but first time coach really in Steve Nash,
and I think at times he's looked overwhelmed. I think, you know, he doesn't take the time out against the Wizards with them up to in bounding the ball under their own basket with like five seconds left, they throw it away and Westbrook it's a three. I mean, you know,
it's a huge question mark for him. But um, you know, ultimately, I think it would be pretty hard to bet against Kyrie hardened Kevin Durant and I do think they have enough in terms of role players and defensive minded guys to you know, just enough to make it work if those three guys are again playing like they did against Clippers the other night. But obviously, you know it's gonna be all up to the mental and if they can you know, stick together and manage Kyrie well enough to
make it across the finish line. Yeah, I think he would make a There's a series of great points you made there which are interesting and the fact that they he did all of that, they did all that against the Clippers is probably the best way to get into the best way to say it, right, like the magic to the NBA is Yeah, Yes, I think Kyrie can lock in for a series against the Bucks, for a series against the Celtics especially, he'd love to do right,
a series against the Clippers, against the Lakers. The question is can they get there? Right? Can they can they? Can they get to that part of the finish line where um, okay, now now your competitive juices are flowing, and now you can and and that's the part where we just don't just don't know. Does does anybody know what that dude is? Like I I do wonder if
k D even understands what he partnered with. You know, it's like when you're friends with somebody's it's like when you're dating somebody, then else when you're living with him, it's so so different. Yeah, I mean, just a completely different experience. Um. I mean it's the reason that the Bachelor and Bachelorette like they never make it right because it's all fantasy and then all of a sudden you get back to reality. Like, wait a second, this person
is a slab, this person the idiot. You know, this person has no drive. Um, so it does, okay, Um, where are you on the Clippers this year as opposed to last year? You know, I think obviously at times last year they look great, you know, and in a lot of the regular season they look great a lot of early playoffs. I mean, ultimately, you know, like we talked about, the narrative with them is just gonna be do they make it to the finals or not? And anything short of that is gonna be is gonna be
probably viewed as as a failure. Again, certainly, you know, if they don't at least make it to to play the Lakers in the conference finals. Um, you know, I think Doc uh quite frankly really did get out coached by Mike Malone last year, and um, you know, I think a big upgrade for them was not only getting you know, promoting Tylu, but what they've done with the assistance there has been really important to get you know, Dan Craig, who was a great preparation guy from Miami,
Kenny Atkinson, Larry Drew, Trump, c Billips, Roy Rogers. You know, he's got a really good staff around him now, I think better than better than what Doc had. Um, you know, but can Betune keep this up? I mean, he looked near comatose and Charlotte and he's shooting like forty something percent from three and just been unbelievable for them. You know, the whole team shooting like above forty percent from three.
They're they're all playing tremendously well together. But uh yeah, I mean, like we said, you know, the question marks all gonna be about the playoffs, and and Paul George clearly is uh you know, gonna have a lot of chances to get in his own head in the playoffs if he if he struggles it all there again. Um you know, so do they have enough to overcome that
against the Lakers? I don't know. I think those two teams pretty much are our coin flip still if if they you know, faced themselves in the in the Western Conference finals. Um, okay, so and then the Lakers this year. You know, it's it's interesting, um that I think the Clippers it was a lot for year one, but they were probably I don't, I don't. I didn't love the
Lakers roster last year, but it came together. Part of it was they were in the bubble and they you know, I don't think they you know, it's funny everybody says the Clippers, you know, succumb to the bubble. The truth is the Lakers were on the birth there too. But what happened with them was interesting was they weren't doing so well emotionally and they were all were ready to go home. And then they had then the dealing the tragedy and Kenosha happened right with it, and and there
was the protests. So they actually had missed two game days, which gave them all time to kind of rest and recharge their bodies, and then you know, they played shortly after then the advanced to take on the Rockets, and the Rockets first it was a terrible matchup for the Rockets, right because the Rockets could only play small and so as you point out, like the Lakers had a great game plan and really matched up well, and then you know,
Russell starts talking ship to them, which you know, supercharged everybody. And then the Clippers lose and they're like, how we can win this thing? So a lot of it was, you know, they It's interesting how we tell we're gonna go back and tell the story of the bubble and lead out the fact that the Lakers weren't doing so hot for a for a good portion of times. That that said, I like a lot of the things they've
done to the roster. I just we make this assumption that we know what Dennis Shrewder is going to be like in the playoffs. We have no idea. I have no idea how he's gonna react in real pressure situations. UM. And uh, you know, I think there are times in which Coup's looks better. There are times in which he
does not. UM. And I also wonder, like we we we This is my biggest problem with with all of us collectively, not just and I have this problem too, is we see one thing and it affirms what we think, and that's what we write. So you know, Lebron looks incredible against the Bucks. Keep in mind, he looked like shit against the Warriors, didn't play well against the Bulls,
and he's not expected to be magnificent every night. But there are nights in which he looks like he's in his mid late thirties and has played eighteen years in the NBA. I'm interested what Lebron is the percentage of times in which he can be Lebron when we get to the playoffs. Considering it's not just this year, it's last year. You know, it's there, there wasn't time off and we can say that he's got this great body whatever, but like at some point, father time does start to
catch up to you. So again my question, do you Lakers this year? What do you think of the roster, how they're playing, and what it looks like once we get to the playoffs. Yeah, I mean, you know, when when you have Lebron and a d it's hard hard to to really screw that up. You know, you'd be hard pressed to put a roster together that they can't find some way to complement those two. Uh, you know, come playoff time. I mean, certainly I agree with you about Shrewder. You know, I think one thing I was
definitely on all season last year. Lakers fans were just bitching incessantly all season long about Rondo and his regular season stats and all those things. But anybody that knew basketball knew that he he's a genius. You know, he's a savant. They knew in the playoffs he would he would have more and be able to play defense and then you know, make those labs and all the all the things he does. You know, So, yeah, he's shrewder the better fit over seventy two games. And can he
play more minutes and can he start? Sure? But you know, will he have the impact Toronto does in terms of leading a team and understanding the game in the playoffs. Probably not. You know that that's a big question mark. Um, you know, losing losing Bradley, losing uh Danny Green's wing defense is still certainly a question mark to me. You know, you have Caruso, you have Matthews, you have Horton. Tucker's you know, young and impressive at times. But uh yeah,
you know that the center's obviously changed. The ton Gasol looked like he was he was out of juice really for Toronto in the playoffs. He's He's looked pretty good for l A, but certainly big question mark if he can really make it through the whole season. You know, Carrel, we talked about the Clippers. He was the one guy that uh, you know, most of their fans blame for for their shortcomings in terms of his defense, his rebounding at times, uh in the playoffs. So you know, he's
definitely still a question mark to some extent. So yeah, I think, you know, you kind of put it fairly. I think both those teams still have have big question marks. And uh, you know, the Lakers ultimately they pulled it out and the Clippers choked at the end. So the narratives that the Lakers were some drastically better team, but you know, I think the truth is closer to they
were both pretty damn close last season. Uh you know, they probably were probably the best two teams in the league ultimately, Um, you know, and I think we'll get to see that this year in terms of them meeting in the Western Conference Finals, and I think to me that that's basically, uh, the NBA Finals. You know, I think they're they're ultimately going to be the two best teams in the league. Um, you know, and whoever wins that I think should should be able to beat Brooklyn
or whoever comes out of the East. If you can pick one player right now in the NBA, who would it be? This is to build around or like for right for one game now for one season this season, still gotta go to Lebrons. Uh yeah, I mean used to you know, thirty six. But he's he's like Brady, you know, he's he hasn't shown really any signs of losing his his mental genius. And I think just on both ends, continues to be the most dominant player, you know,
especially come playoff times. So despite any videos of him coasting or whatever at times in the regular season, you ultimately know, you know, he's going to be the best player most likely, uh, come playoff time. It's interesting because I think the Brady comparison is a good one because sometimess, there's there's two things that having a guy like that
does to your to your franchise. Right. One, it gives everybody a belief Like he walks in the door, You're like, Okay, we want to win, and this guy knows how to win, right. And the Lebron is kind of he's kind of evolved, right, he has. Like last year he just and I don't know if it was Vogel or if it was him, but at some point they figured out, like, you know, the offense is gonna come and go, let's just be the best fucking defensive team in the league. And they
were unbelievable. And he's not nearly as his defense is on the micro what his game is on the macro, which is he's not as he's not as good defensively on the ball as he used to be. Can't defend the rim. Sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes he has nights where he doesn't move that well. But he's so intellectually ahead
of everybody else. He's a great leader, and he knows to pick his spots and how to hide defensively at times, so he doesn't overextend himself or look bad like there's a you know, so he protects himself from himself, which is amazing. But that's kind of his whole game, right, Like he doesn't go one on one as much. He lets Anthony Davis do that. And now he'll because he's
become a much better three point shooter. He'll settle for threes and he'll take halves off of really extending himself, saving himself with the fourth quarter, right, But there's a lot of Brady to it where even if it's not real, there's there's just this belief that he's gonna win and he's going to figure it out. And that's the Brady thing. Brady is not close to a top five quarterback. And they he played like ship in the NFC Championship game.
But that first drive they get the ball, they march down the field and they score like, Oh, Tom Brady, what do you got? Right? And Lebron they're they're very similar in that way in that they they they believe that they're gonna win at the end of the day, and everybody else believes in them. And they're not better, but they're so much smarter than they ever were previously, even in their career that there that they're a step
ahead of everybody else. Yeah. Absolutely, And it's you know, it's just the i Q is is off the charts. You know, he's he's the smartest player of all time. You know, there's stories going around about Patrick Patterson. I remember once forgot to play uh for the Raptors and and Lebron walked him through their play, like what what
the Raptors were supposed to do? He knew it better than Patterson did um And yeah it is you know, that's again stuff that just doesn't show up in the statue that he he knows every single play and every team was playbook. He knows exactly where he's supposed to be,
where everybody's supposed to be. And yeah, I mean he's like the you know, he's like the quarterback defensively offensively obviously that I cused off the charts too, and he just he just manages a game to a t. So last thing, Okay, so how can people get your stuff? Your pod, your breakdown? Yeah, just Scout with Brian, uh, Scott with Brian with a Y if you type that in on Twitter YouTube of course, the Scout with Brian podcast. Those are the three main ways to find my stuff
at at Scott with Brian. If you're going to tell there's a college kid who's listening, I actually have a a friend who's a college kid and he wants to be a GM in the league and he studies it. He's working for an agent as well. But if you're you tell somebody, all right, when you get done with college here's what you should do if you want to be in the league. What would it be? Uh fucking grind,
That's what I'll say. You know, I'm a I'm a five ten Jewish kid that that played high school tennis, like I said, you know, and and cut to be U a full time traveling video coordinator in every coach's meeting right out of college, you know, and that. Yeah, I'm not trying to toot my own horn or say I was better than anybody or anything. But what I tried to pride myself on was was, you know, being the first one in the office, last to leave, and
just working my ass off. And and that's the only way you can kind of make up that gap, you know, if you weren't a player, weren't a tremendous athlete or anything. So you know, like sports, ultimately, a lot of that stuff is about about work ethic, So grinding, grinding. Hey man, listen, I really appreciate join us. I love the back and forth and some of the d M we have on stuff. And at some point let's break bread in person in the future and uh, this is great, let's let's let's
do it again. As the season rolls, on. Thanks. I appreciate your input and your knowledge and and you join us on the pot. Thank you, Doug, really appreciate you having me enjoyed it. Be sure to catch the live edition of The Doug gott Leap Show weekdays at three p m. Easter noon Pacific. Alright, my thanks to Brian. Follow him on social media. He's awesome. Keep the questions coming. We always try and do some NBA, some college, some
great personalities. Um, if you missed any of the other ones, there's some great other All Balls download them wherever you download this podcast. Remember my show is three to six Eastern or twelve three Pacific every day on Fox Sport Trade or foxport Trade dot Com, the I Heart Radio app. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is All Ball