Hey, it's stuck Golie. Welcome and this is All Ball, the podcast you love, and we tell stories where we love other people to come and tell stories about their storied career. We talk a little hoops in the meantime. I do want to give you a thought on the issues within the Miami Heat. And as you guys know, if you listen to this pod, I love the idea
of culture. I love that they kind of load to the basketball, that they make you make contested shots, that they played together, that it's about toughness and versatility defensively. And I'm also realized that they're not healthy, right, I get it, But we also have to give a little bit of respect for guys that can just go get buckets. Like all the other stuff is hard, playing the NBA is hard. There's just there's no role that you have that's easy. Hey, I mean, I I all. I remember
Steve Kerr. I think it was in the tooth husand and two NBA Finals. I went to Game six in Jersey and and maybe I have I'll tell that story again. That's actually how I got my first NBA draft gig at ESPN Radio. But I remember going to Game six and Steve Kurt didn't play in the first half, and yet in the second half. You remember that game he came off the bench and maybe maybe his Game five, I think it was actually his Game five and hit three threes, replaced Tony Parker and kind of one in
the game one in the series. And I remember walking out of the building that night thinking, do people understand how hard it is what Steve Kerr just accomplished. If people understand that to sit there the whole game and then oh yeah, by the way, to start in the second half and halfter halftime, he and Steve Smith must have gotten the sign they were gonna go play. They come sprinting out of the the locker room and get a
bunch of shots up. But to sit there for like an hour and a half, two hours, get the call come in, be open, have to make shots. I know. Yeah, by the way, guard Jason Kidd at the other end, that's an incredibly hard rule. But the hardest rule remains, Hey, when the house is on fire or you can lead them out, can you go get me a bucket? The the amount of energy expended doing that is greater than
any other energy in the NBA. So I I respect that, and I think it's what the Heat are missing, you know, like, look, when they won championships, they had Lebron or they had Dwyane Wade. When they haven't, They've had really really good teams that allow them to consistently be competitive, but they don't have a bucket getter. And Jimmy Butler is a very very good player. There's a difference very very good player and star superstar, And there in lies the difference.
You know, that's just not he's at his best when he's your second or third best offensive player. When he's your best offensive player, that's not really what he does. He can still score twenty five a night, but he can't be counted on the score night. Makes sense, all right, more on that to come. Let me get you to part two of my conversation with Jadie Collins. You do you remember the moment that you felt like I've made it right, Like you remember the big game? Where where
was it? Because oftentimes, like you mentioned, uh, the former commissioner of the MAC who became the coordinator in the because like that's I'm gonna look, we look at the list right before the game, like and then there's always a guy like I have no idea who that human being is. And then you get to a point where like, oh, j D, I know, I mean, all right, we're good. Was was it a moment where, uh, you know, a big name coach, you know, I knew you by name
and you had a relationship. Was it a big game? Was it a final four? What was the Was there a moment where like I have kind of arrived? You know, I don't know that. I don't know that just thinking that way, I don't know that I have I don't know that I can think that I've arrived. I you know, even in my job that I'm in now, it's uh, I don't know. I think we all we all are in learning process. But three things came to mind when
you asked that question about a moment um. I worked the I worked in the Elite eight Nolbuquerque with Tim Higgins and Eddie High Tower Louisville, West Virginia UM. Louisville is down twenty four points at the half and Louisville comes back double overtime, wins by one and goes to the Final four. I remember working that game, and not that it was perfect, not that that the three of us were perfect or anything like that, but it was the the atmosphere was such, and I think it might
have been two thousand and five. The atmosphere was such that processing through it handling the game, not having an impact on who one who lost that game. UM that that was a pretty pretty pretty cool moment. The second one is not a moment of arrival, but it's a moment moment that you know that you're heading in the
right direction. I was fortunate enough to work as the alternate official in the two thousand final two thousand four Final four in San Antonio, and setting there watching it, I remember the words in my head, I think I can do this. I mean I could, I can work the Final four or whatever. Hank Nichols assigned me to that game. Dear friend, uh those games. I was there all weekend. Four years later, I'm back in San Antonio work in U c l A in Memphis, and I
knew that I could handle that game. I didn't think I could, I knew I could. And so the that process of the next four years, working literally each coordinator of the Power Leagues and the Big East gave me games that, I mean, night in and night out. We're just hard the backyard brawl between Pittsburgh and West Virginia
and just I mean Indiana Purdue. Mr mcan state whatever it is you you then know that you can handle these games because it kind of been there, done that there's nothing gonna happen that it's gonna get, um go wrong in the game. And I say that to say coordinators assigned referees on the game differently than they assigned you once and you two's the referee is responsible for
that game. And I always took it that it was my job to make sure nothing went wrong in that game, whether it was fand behavior, player behavior, coach behavior, I was gonna handle it. And that four year segment between O four and oh eight was truly the learning part of getting me to that point. If there is ever a point of of ah ha as you're describing it, Um, it's that journey you're in along the way now going back to that, going back to the to the Louisville
West Virginia game. Um, I had one opportunity in my career Louisville West Virginia. I call a foul. I think his numbers twenty four. J D. Collins calling a foul on J. D. Collins, the player from West Virginia right right, and High Tower was with me and High Tower as the trail boom, he takes the call at the table and I am devastated. I'm like, hey, I get half time, like I had the chance to call a foul and
j D column, are you kidding me? Well, he didn't particularly understand what I was trying to communicate there, but that being said, um, I think it's more of a journey, Doug than it is a moment now getting done with the final four. That was an oh eight that I worked on the floor. My knee blew out, you know, nine, So my career ended at that point on the floor. Um. But after the game, I walk out in the arena. It was really funny because Tom Crean was was setting
in the second row right behind me. I walk out, turn on my cell phone, sixty messages, you know, just getting pounded by the people that wanted to celebrate working the game. And Tom says to me, hey, j D. And he's coming from the Big East to the Big Ten and he and he said, I always thought I always thought Big East officials sucked. And he was kidding, he was busting my chops. I said, Tom big Tens my primary, I'll see you in the fall. It was a great bus. Uh, and I have the utmost respect
for him. But that moment when my when I listened to the first message, I'm sitting there, the second game is getting ready to start, and I listened to the first message, and it hits you. It hits you that you just had the opportunity to referee in front of seventy five thousand people for the first time. You did well, you didn't screw anything up. Uh. That moment is the one that that I you know, I shot my phone off and left the arena, went back to the hotel
room and enjoyed life. Was it was it all? Like? What was the goal? To just grow? Was the goal to get to the Final four? Like you know in your as you climb Like it's like I tell people all the time, like my goal, like all I want to do is I wanted to start four years and college and then my goal is really I just want to play one day in the NBA. That was I just I had a reasonable I thought if things worked
out right, I could play in the NBA. But if I just had one day where I walked into the locker room and there's an NBA jersey in my last name on the back, Like that's I'm good right, I wanted to play in the final four. Um, you know things you want to do? Was was was there a goal? Was that a goal along the way or was it? Or were you a just keep growing, progressing sort of guy? What what was your mentality? I think I think achieving excellence is what the overall goal is, and the way
you mark that is what level you achieved. And so getting the opportunity to work the final four says you're a you are an elite level that you can you can attach to what your peers attached to as well. Um, really, every every you know, the hundred guys that I use in the n C Double A tournament, every one of them one to work the final four, and then everyone of them wants wants to work the championship game. And then everyone of them wants to be the guy tossing
the ball at the championship game. Because of the reality, every other official besides the guy that gets to toss the vault at the Final four was second, third, fourth, hundred. You know that nobody's ever happy, ever ever ever, and and uh, yeah, it's the final four is what officials want to work, Uh, to acknowledge their status level in the business. Uh, how'd you blow your knee? You know? I uh runner all my life. I put a lot
of road miles in with a couple of dogs. Uh. Then add to that refereeing stop start stop start, had multiple knee surgeries and Uh. On December six, I was at Ohio University and a player went to the corner and I had to run around him and I felt my knee pop. I kept referee being, um, you know, drained my knee, get a shot, do whatever. December at Michigan State against Texas Southern. Um, it blew up the size of a pumpkin, and I knew I was done, you know, quite frankly, both knees bone on bone. I
had used them up. I was forty seven years old. Went to went to my surgeon, uh New Year's Eve, and said, hey, help me, help me fix this. Let's you know, I need to keep refereeing. And he's like, dude, you're done, you are done. You have to have your knee replaced. Boom bom boom, and away we went. There are officially you didn't finish even that year. I did not. I shut it down on December. I had my knee replaced on March the and UH, you know, you go
on with life. And there are officials today who have knee replacements and physically work themselves back to the point where they can referee. Uh. Several several um n C Double A level final four guys have have done this. Uh in my path have my right knee replaced. I know my leftnee needed it. If I went back on the floor, it would just it's a matter of one
season or whatever. And I choose the value of life over uh, you know, the ability to play golf, the ability to hike with my wife's ability to do things. I chose that over going back on the floor and fighting that battle just for another basketball game. So then, how did you progress into coordinating officials as opposed to doing yourself? So I, uh that was March of ten. In in March of eleven, um, the Big Ten hired me. They just hired Rick by I just as a coordinator
of officials. Uh. And Rick came from the coaching side. Uh. So Jim Delaney hired me to be an assistant there. The following year became the MAC and some are the MAC in the Summit League coordinator and helped the Big ten. So it was a natural progression for UM on the floor to administrative and trying to UM teach and train guys to do what I had done on the floor.
Did that for five years and in the n C double a position opened and UM, I felt that it was the right the right move I thought, I thought it was the right challenge and literally thrilled to death that I made that change. And I've loved I've loved being in the role I'm in for seven years. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live. UM so m college Baute.
We started by talking about decorum, fans and a little bit officials. UM. I think the first thing is that people believe. And you mentioned back in the Horizon League, Hey, I want to hire a guy from Indiana. I don't want to think. You know, we're is the idea of biases, the biases, and it's hard because you do at some point you're doing it for you know, how long you've been doing it for. You know, you get to whether
you have a real relationship with people. Be there's people that you like, like you just like them, you know, and the people that you don't like what you have to call the game fair in your heart of hearts? Do you do you believe that you're able to officiate without any bias um The answer equivically is yes. When when you first started refereeing, you know, people go is
a makeup call a possibility? You do that once in your career where you miss a call and then you miss a second one on purpose and you realize you never catch up. And so that is I will, I will only and I don't want to interrupt your thoughts, but I will point out that what I find to be really good officiating sometimes it's harder now with replay is you might miss a call and then the ball goes out of bounds and you you right the wrong by giving it to the team that the call was
missed up. So yes, you know, twenty years ago, twenty years ago, you might have been able to pull that off occasionally. But the reality and the better play is a guy who goes over the top and is bowling the guy from behind, and we know that it went out on whit, we pass on the foul and we give the ball back to Okay, that's that's a better example because there's there's two parts to that play. But the reality is, um, you can never catch them and it doesn't exist. Your question to me is can you
do it without bias? And you just like you as a fan or your fans that watch games without question, their biased towards the red jersey or the blue jersey without question. You have to train yourself not to have bias. And I would you know a little footnote here. I think you have to do that in life as well. I do. I think what people they this is their
one place? This is there one like. That's honestly the hardest thing in my in in my job is you know, people like you played at Oklahoma States, so you automatically hate X y Z like no, this this school did offer you a scholarship, so like it turned out okay for me, that was twenty years downy years ago. That has nothing to do with anything now, Um, Like, you can be trained to have bias, uh, whether that's in
basketball or in life. You can train yourself to have no bias, especially as you're operating at a professional level. And you know, let's talk about my job. I choose one officials to work the n C Double A tournament and advanced them through the tournament. I will promise you I don't like all Okay. Some of them are are people that their approach to life is completely opposite of mine. They have different values. I don't like them, but you know what, my job is to put the best officials
on this wool. Matter whether I like them or not. You can train yourself to not have bias. And I will tell you I know that's you know, from a fan perspective, that's the number one thing. Oh this guy when he ref Star Games. You know what, I had Gane Katie one year eleven times. They went two and nine with me. Jane thought I was a horrible official that year. The following year, I had them seven times
and they went six and one with me. And he literally asked the coordinator of officials, did j D go through a divorce last year? Whatever? No, your team sucked, they weren't very good. Okay, nothing to do with my BIASI has nothing to do with my bias toward a team a t B R tm C. It's about training yourself, not to me. Okay, how about this one, um, what is it like you're a young official? Okay, this is
a this is this is a very basketball thing. I think that one of the hardest things for like John Shire this year, dude is going to be is completely different when John Shire is over there trying to talk to you and ask you for a call, as opposed to the old man. Right just is. But as an official, is it like, you know, the thought is for example, coach k I mean, he's USA Basketball, he's you know,
kind of pedigree. So so so you're you're doing a game, you're a young official and you're looking over there and one guy has won seven hundred games and it is in the Hall of Fame and the other guy is just coming coming up. Doesn't mean you're gonna screw the other guy, but it's a lot of harder you're you you know, it's like God himself is coaching that one team. What what is that to not to officiate? Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna move move the bar just a second
and then come back to that. My first Division one game in an exhibition game, was at Indiana University with Coach Night. First Division game. Okay, I'm with Steve Walmer and Eric Carmona. During the game, I go to the C slot in front of Coach Night. He picks me up. He literally stood up, picked me up and moved me to the side because he wanted to see the game. If that happened twenty years into my career, fifteen years into my career, I give him a technical foul and
move on. I'm not gonna happen. But my partners, because it was an exhibition game and easy for them, they rotated so that I was in front of Coach Night every time down. I had no choice but to be in front of Coach Night on my first Division one game. All right, now, fast forward, Um, I referee in the Big ten from certainly through two thousand while he was in a Big Tennis, So I Coach Night a lot. And there is a point in everyone's career where you have to stand on your own two feet and go
back to the duke thing. It's walking on the floor before a game. You've been in the league for fifteen years. Assistant coach from Team A comes over, Hey, j D. Gives you some man love, blah blah blah blah. A lot of guys don't pay attention to that referees. When that would happen to me, I would go find an assistant coach from the team I didn't know, introduced myself, give them some brother love, and away we go. Why
would I do that? Because I wanted everyone to understand that I'm gonna treat everyone exactly the same, no matter of pedigree, no matter of whatever. Now, one coach, best example, I give you his coach Pettino when he was at Louisville.
If you had Louisville and filling the blank team and you listen to to the fill in the blank team's coach for fifteen seconds, one of coach Pettino's major things is, no matter what happened in the game, he's taken fifteen seconds down there, he's gonna get in your ear for fifteen seconds. Okay, time, if it's thirty seconds, he's taken thirty, but he's gonna get his equal time. And early in my career I understood that process and understood that it
doesn't really matter. And you say, well, I'll give me an example that okay. Uh. December twenty six, two thousand six or seven December, nobody's playing, and I get an assignment of North Carolina at Rutgers. Okay, only game on in America. North Carolina is winning by twenty points. Handburg goes Handsborg goes to the whole, gets a little bit of a foul, but it's not enough, and I point the other way. Blah blah blah. Coach um uh coach jumps in the air, lands on the floor. Before he lands,
I whack him. I hate him with the technical foul completely upsets him beyond you know, any normal faith. I can't believe that that's the cheapest technical. He's He's all over me. I we we do the technical foul at the other end. We come back and I make my partners switch up, so I'm in front of him. I'm in front of Roy, and Roy goes, Jean, that's the cheapest technical. I said, Roy, not personal. You can't do that on my floor, and he goes, it's not personal.
Oh no, Roy, it's not personal. Now keep in mind, I also knew that every coach in America was watching North Carolina at Rutgers that night. Next month of my season, I didn't hear Boot Jack Didley from a single coach that I had. But he's gonna whack Roy Williams on national television. He's certainly gonna give me a technical foul. Okay, So for me it I just think again, you train yourself not to have biased You train yourself to treat people equally. It's the right thing to do, and that's
that's what we as coordinators have to teach and train. Okay, howbout this is a question. What about the energy of the of the home Uh? Momentum run right like? It does, feel like officials. All of a sudden, the home team hits a couple of shots, get a couple of steals. Now there's a block charge, and it's I mean, when
you point the other way, the whole place explodes. What how what I thought you were just sharing with me that the other team is feeling that pressure and it affects their performance and therefore that's why all that stuff happens. I don't I don't think there's I don't think there's I don't I don't think there's any I don't think there's any Yes, of course, I don't think there's any doubt that that that happens right, like one, the home team does become more aggressive and the road team does
become more past. But again, we're dealing with human beings here, and you're, well, you being and you feel that, and you're I mean, like, that's why you do it, Right's the energy of these bills, that's what separates, right, So what is it like and how do you maintain your kind of emotional balance in these moments so that you're
not biased? Right? Right? I think it's I think it's really a matter of again training yourself not to be biased, training yourself for those big moments, and making sure that the block charge play at this point the same as a block charge play at that point, and not getting caught up in that emotion because the reality is, we're wrong fifty of the time every call we make right, we're just we're just wrong fifty of the time. Meaning
we call it play against red, we're wrong. We call it the other we call play against blue, We're wrong. That's just the way it is. And so you learn, uh, through training, through going through the steps of moving up and officiating, you learn, uh not to have that kind of a negative situation impact you. But you also how do you do it. As you mentioned, you're part of a team, right, So if you're part of a team,
there's good. Sometimes there's another official who may get I don't want to say influenced, but who may make a call. And sometimes it's based upon how do you how do you handle that when you're sitting there and you're like, you know it's not you don't agree with it, but you are a teammate at the time. Yeah, and obviously we're talking about the highest level. You know, I hate to make this comparison, but how cool was watching the PGA tournament this past weekend? Is the best of the best?
Some performed well under pressure, some some did not, And that's gonna happen in night our me about Meto? Like man, that was that that that eighteenth hole was hard to watch. But you know what, he's gonna have another eighteenth toll a couple of years from now. He's gonna have another eighteen toll. And there's there's some scar, there's some scar tissue there that that's gotta be. But that's that's how we learn, and that's how we keep that from happening
in the future. I'm I'm doing a loose comparison. To the p g A golfers, to our college basketball officials. Even you're asking the question indicates that you think it happens more often than not. And that's not the case. That's just not the case. We missed. We miss calls, Doug, There's no question we miss calls not because we want to, because we're in a bad position. We didn't see the
whole play. You know, if you see a block charge play and you you're over here looking and all of a sudden there's a block charge play and it happens, you're seeing this much of the play. If I'm in position and I see a block charge play develop happen and finish, it's in slow motion. It goes in slow motion. So there's ways to put yourself in a better position to make those calls correctly. And it just the thought of just even the thinking behind this is not the
way a referees mind works. It's just not. That's that's that's why that's why I asked. Not because the other one that you'll get is, well, you know, it's working too many games. That's why I missed that one, right, He's he's tired working too many games. All these guys they all they want. They want to make more money, you know, so they do all these they do too many games? How much this does mental travel fatigue affect your ability or did it affect your ability to perform
under pressure? On my and I'll use my scenario to make a point. Up until two thousands of six, I was president CEO of a corporation. There are a lot of decisions had to be made on a daily basis, flying private to do this, and I thought that I was a pretty good official at that point. So of business just refereing full time. I'm flying into a city a referee four or five games in that city over a three or four day period. I'm sleeping well, I'm
eating well, I'm exercising well. I was a much better official in that scenario, and I was working a lot of games. Okay. I think the answer to the question is it depends on your scenario. Some guys can work seventy games a year and it's the perfect number. Some guys can work ninety games a year, it's the perfect number.
What I would ask you is, do you think any of those golfers in the PGA Championship if they left last weekend's tournament did not play practice rounds, did not do anything until Thursday morning, they walked out and they started playing for the PGA Championship. Do you think they'd be very good? There's no They have a rhythm that that you know. The actual question I've been given from officials is you know you have a requirement j D. That we can't refer when you're in the n C
Double A tournament. You can't referee for three or four days before your tournament game. We they feel officials feel they have a repetition in there because that's what that's their normal, that's what they do, and so there's a balancing point there. And the the bigger fear for the n C Double A tournament is that an official referee is on Tuesday, he's got a game. On Thursday, he gets injured, and now we we have a problem. We
have to replace somebody. So I think that the number of games worked per week is more about what's the appropriate repetition for that particular official. Is he does he have a full time job, does he not have a full time job? Is he refereeing full time? There is a cadence to what we do. That's the right number for each and every official, and I think it's different for each and every official we mentioned black charge. I think this is a personal opinion, okay, that with the
charge circle we're asking officials to do. There's only one other type of officiating that does the exact same that does a similar thing, and that's baseball umpires. When you have a check swing to see if the guy went through m so the umpire is behind the catcher, they
have to determine ball or strike. And then they're trying to determine if a guy went when you don't have the angle, that's not what you're concentrating on, right, Okay, So for block charge, you have to determine if the and again I don't know how you're how it's taught, okay, but it seems to be that we go kind of ground up, right because we're trying to see if one they're outside the circle too, if their feet are some
form of being set. And then you're looking at the context that makes it really difficult to see was the guy set when he goes into the motion of it, right when he when he starts going towards, going towards people like when does when are the feats set? Like where you get so focused on the feet being inside outside that line that everything else becomes secondary or tertiary, and it's almost an impossible ask of one official to see block or charge. Now, first how is it taught?
And secondly, how how can you break down those separate things that are occurring at a very very similar First of all, the NBA rule you you use that you didn't use the term, but you you explained it, and that's to gather. When they gather, that guy's got to be there, and that's refereeing both the offensive player and the defensive player. In college, it isn't the gather, it's
when I it's when I leave the floor. And the way we teach officials as we referee the defense exclusively and if the defender has reached legal guarding position two feet on the floor facing his opponent prior to that guy taken off, which is generally within the same four ft area I find defense feet down is the upper is he not at block charge? If he is there before he takes off, I know the defense is legal. There's only one call that can be made to actually
ones a player control foul. The other is a no call depending on if there's enough contact. So for us, I don't think the block charge play is hard to call. The restricted area does make it difficult because you've got to find where their feet are at relatively restricted area. But if they're two feet facing their opponent and they're legal, the bottom line is you can't call blocking foul on
that player. So it makes it really simple. And I would tell you, yeah, players are faster, stronger, quicker, and those places happen in an instant. But like I alluded to earlier, if you're in the right position and you see it coming and you identify the defense, all that stuff goes in slow motion. If you're in the wrong position and you're trying to find it, yeah, it's gonna be really difficult. That's why positioning is so critical to what we do UM back in two thousand and twelve.
You know, I know, I hear the music out there that we're calling too many player control files. The reality is that may or may not be true, but the reality is Art Higland and myself we've spent the last two years teaching our referees what legal guarding position is and they're doing a tremendous job of adhering to the rules that we have and given that fact, our call actually rate on block charge plays extremely high. Given our current rules, Now certain pundits don't like that, we'll change
the rules. That's pretty simple. Well, if you if you could design the rules which should be better for everybody. I don't know, well, I'm for for the greatest percentage of people. Like you know, you're never gonna please everybody. But if you would say, hey, this is this is I've been doing this a long time, you know, I'm I'm running up in the sense that doesn't matter. Let me just tell you what it should be. This is
ship This is counterintuitive to our current rules. The we we have an art play there which was designed The art was designed to keep people out of there, right, keep people out of there. And now we say you can get in there if you jump vertically and you all up legally. That's a great defensive play. We're never gonna move that backward. But if we're gonna have an arc on the floor to keep people out of there, that don't let anybody go in there. Now, the difference
people apply the NBA look to our game. The reality is, for the first of an NBA game, nobody plays defense anyhow, and if you beat somebody at the basket, we're gonna let you score because it's all about scoring. It's all about entertainment. Our game is not that. We have fifty of the coaches who are defensively minded and they want the ability to jump in and take that charge because they taught their players correctly. We have fifty of the coaches are going now this is an offensive game, and
we gotta allow our eyes to blow through. And you say when you say don't let anybody in there like, you're never like, it's you never allowed to be in there. Yeah, exactly exactly. If you if you want the basket to be open, and you put lines on the floor for that, then don't let anybody in there. Add to that that we had in the last five, seven, ten years, offense
initiated contact has moved up to an extreme high. So therefore, offensive minding coaches are teaching their players drive to the basket as hard as you can hit somebody and put a shot up. We'll get fouls on that of the time or whatever whatever they figure out. That's a problem too, and we have no way to adjust that thinking. We have no way to adjust. You call player control fouls. But by the way, on the current rule we have, which is pretty good, people don't like us calling player
control fouls because it takes points off the board. So it's where they don't like is they don't like, Yes, it's the when a guy is dribbling laterally, you know, or he feels like you just take a dive at somebody's arm or whatever, or the I thought what happened, especially during the freedom of movement era, was you know
that that uh it got that. That's when it first became the offense initiated contact, and then as it kind of got dial back, the defense would close up that space to where the offense is left with no choice, like physically can't move unless you kind of get a guy off you. And now when you get a guy off you, they all take a dive and it becomes very difficult for an official like is that a real dive?
But you really get hit? You know, you have the guys throwing their head back all the time when they're dribbling, all those other kind of tricks to the trade. If you will, I'll tell you what I like is I would like the elimination of the offensive basket interference. You know that one's in. That one's an easy one. And I think it also makes officials jobs a lot easier as well, where that's not something that you have to
worry about. Like the cylinder rule, it's hard. How can I tell the ball is exactly out of the cylinder, So get rid of the rule. That's what happened. FIBA has FIBA has a rule that once the ball hits the rim, it's free play. Anybody can do anything offensive or different defensive like that. I refereed fee of the ball for seven years and I loved it because it's a it's an athletic play, it's an exciting play, and you take uh hard hard judgments. I wasn't in was
it out? I perfectly like that. Yeah, it has been discussed at the rules meeting UM the last couple of years. I think it will continue to be discussed and potentially someday, well, we may move to that. But I think I think it's you know you and I would agree on that that that concept. I like the fifty. I also like in TIBA the was a fourteen second or fifteen second reset on offensive rebounds. Just speeds just it speeds it up.
You know, and then you bring it out and setting them up and get it and go go, go again and again again. What what what is that like to go from I mean it's kind of similar to your job in life to go from officiating to coordinating, because as much as you still got to go and observe, you're not doing it and there's an energy to doing it right? What what what? What's what's that? What's that
like to especially this first couple of years. You know, people ask me all the time, Hey, do you miss afficiating? And my answer is always the same. Every day, every day I miss it because I think in life we're all, you know, God makes us all for a certain thing, and I was made to referee then I didn't have the ability to referee. And I think referring is not that hard. I think we have a set of rules you apply, the rules you apply, the art of the game,
the science of the game. I don't think it's that hard. And I watch referees, uh Douce on certain nights, I watch referees do things and make it hard. We make it hard on ourselves, and that's really frustrating for me to watch because I how do we how do how do we make it? How do you make it hard themselves? Ah? Um, calling calling a play that's a nominal play of foul when the next you know, the previous play down the floor there was an obvious foul and we didn't put
a whistle on it. That's inconsistent and we put a nominal foul here. We we uh, we don't see the game from a consistency perspective, and we make it difficult. And that's not a that everyone doesn't do that, but but I'll tell you to your question, that's what that's what's frustrating for me. As a former referee who wants the referee. All you gotta do is be right on your calls, be consistent, and be able to communicate with coaches, and you you'll have the greatest career in the world.
It's pretty simple. How why do you think? Uh? Well, first of me, I mean mess to our question. What's the percentage of Division one officials who are former Division one players? Not as um, not as high as you you would think. My guess is five to seven. Why do you why do you think the number is what it is because players yourself included, who had the ability to play at a high level Division one. UM, to
a certain degree, they have talent, they have skill. Uh, they're in a great environment with with all kinds of perks that come to them. And oh, by the way, you got in refereeing. You heard my journey high school ball, small college ball, six hour drives, sixty bucks. Uh no, I'm not interested in that. If I can get in and work two years and then you put me in the final four, oh yeah, I'm I'm your guy, that's
not what develops great referees. And so I think there's a dichotomy between the expectation of a player and the expectation of the journey you need to go through to be truly a successful referee. Now that said, I think former players have a great feel for the game, and referees need feel. They need the art of the game to match the science of the game. UM. I would love to see more players get involved in officiating, certainly with the shortages that are happening at the lower levels.
I I agree, I mean, I completely agree, But it's the guys have to understand the process of it, and it's a it's a hard journey. It now is a hard journey, but it's hard for guys that you're like, look, we we we didn't play I played JV basketball for half of one season, right, you know, like like we didn't have to do that. Now, when you go to college, you don't start right away. You transfer to somewhere you can start, right. So guys that never truly had to
put in there. They put in the work in their game, but they never put in the work in terms of hey, here's that works. You start here, but you gotta you gotta, I gotta pay for a referee camp, all right. Like when I played, somebody would fly me and give me huge and gear like no, no, don't wear it that way. That don't hurt. It's a long, hard journey to to achieve, either being at the highest level and men's college of basketball or getting to the NBA officiating. It's a hard,
hard journey. And the commitment, uh, to see that through is is it takes. It takes a lot of commitments. Rare, it's it's it's it's it is Uh, it is rare.
Um the who's the who's the goat, Who's the guy that if you ask officials that college officials, that's the best guy to ever do you know, I'm always hesitant to put one name on that because, um, as you know, and as they look at the NBA players now, players twenty years ago, players forty years ago, the guys foty years ago getting left off, and they in fact may
have been the best ever, no question, no question. So it's like bar Right six mbps, six titles, yet knowing it all timely a score never made a three pointer, yet everybody completely dismisses him as the greatest. No, he's not even the discussion of greatest player of all time. So I understand that. But of the you've been You've been doing this since let's just go since night nineties, so last thirty years. Well, what I would tell you is, I mean, you can't. You can't argue with Jimmy Burr
uh with sixteen final fours. You can't argue with with John cal I think we're ten final fours. You can't argue with Ed high Tower twelve final fours. Um? Those are those are statements about a journey. You can't argue with John Higgins, um nine final fours. Um, there there's UH. When I was refereing, Here's what I'll tell you in my UH from two thousand, probably four to two thousand nine. I thought John cal who's the current Big East coordinator officials,
was the best in America. His approach to the game. He was a student of the game as he as he neared retirement, he did things like started doing yoga classes, pilates to make his physical body continue in the you know things like that. People that take the extra the extra time, effort, energy at the craft, those are the guys that should be UM claimed as quote unquote the
best um. But in reality, each of those players we talked about on the NBA had different skills that you know, well, Chamberlain certain mold, cream, Abdul Jabar certain mold, Michael Jordan's certain mold. They did a lot of things in a great way. There were some things they couldn't do. And so when you look at a fish as officials the same way. Some of them are really good on their call. Actually,
some are really good at their uh, their consistency. Some are average communicators, or communicate in a harsh way instead of a more kind way. Whatever it is. I think you have to look at each individual in their own um. Well, you said it earlier, Steve Walmer, you would say he's best college referee ever had, and yet in the same sentence you said it was a horrible play caller because he never blew his whistle. Okay, I think Steve Walmer is one of the best ever. I think he was
way ahead of his time, maximize things. He's a dear friend. He was a without question, the greatest communicator we ever had. But what I put him on the same category with Jim Burr and John cow as an example, No, I wouldn't. So, I know that's a great answer to your it's it's it's it's actually it's actually a fair answer. We we just usually in TV and radio, we don't. We don't. We don't do that. It has to be one has
to be one or the other. Um, greatest individual performance that you were officiating a game, and I I'll give you like a story is um Bill self told me, you know, they played that Kevin Durant play at fall Gallant field House and Danny Manning was assistant, and Danny turned to Danny turned to Bill laying the game. They would say one. But I think I think Durant had like forty three or some and Danny Manning, who's you know, in any conversation of the greatest college player ever, had
the greatest season ever, and then one national championship. Turned to Bill and goes, that's the baddest motherfucker that's ever played on this floor. That's what That's what he said. So there are these individual moments where you see and I've always found one of the things I love doing is when I talked to the officials for a calling a game, It's like, who you've been doing, who's good? Who do you like? And because officials know like you, you know if jelling of nuts. So, but give me
a individual performance. You were officiate a game and this was one that sticks out at you from a player perspective. Yes, So in UH got to think of the year it might have been. It might have been two thousand and eight, prior to the Olympic team going, Uh to the Olympics. I went to Vegas. Uh, I think three of us
went to Vegas. And because I was FEBA official and worked there a week long camp at that time, Uh, you know, these are the NBA guys, These are the best best, right At that time, Kobe was the man without questions. Lebron wanted to be the man, and while everybody else in the gym was walking up and down the floor, maybe jogging up and down the floor, those two win at each other for a solid week, every
play without hesitation, over and over and over. And at that time, at that time, Kobe schooled Lebron without question. Kobe had gears, Kobe had abilities, and he put them all on the line during that week. That didn't matter. That may have been the best um true performance that I saw in all my years. And you know, I got to, you know, work in the Big ten, a c C, Big East for a number of years. I got to see some really great players with some really
great performances. Saw a kid in Kansas versus maybe South Dakota or North Dakota kid put sixty three up in an n C double A tournament game, something crazy like that. But Lebron and Lebron and Kobe going at each other for a week was and I and I was aware enough that I was able to acknowledge it while it was going on and just enjoy the heck out of it. Your favorite place to officiate a game, well, I would
have to. I would have to break that down into um break that down into levels, meaning you know, at the small college level, I worked a lot of games here in Indiana and Bethel College used to have a gym that held maybe maybe a thousand people. And you get that tournament, the Crossroads League. You get the Crossroads League. Playing a game at Bethel for the semifinals or finals play, people are crawling all over you. There's a stage at
one end. It was phenomenal. Um. Moving up a level, you go to the Division one level Roberts Arena and Evansville, Indianas where Evansville you should play, and the seats were right down on the floor, I mean the front row, the high dollar seats were just I mean you had six inches of space. Same things true at Kansas there's just no there's no space. And having that environment on top of you. UM, I would consider Duke UH and
their arena to be very similar. That feeling of everyone is on top of you is a is a very unique and and and really cool place. Then you move up to the the you know, the larger arenas, and um, you know, I worked a lot of games in the Big ten and UM, going to UH Wisconsin and and having that fan base who maybe you know, rabid is not the right word. But they believe, they believe red Man, they bleed red. Ohio State Big Arena feels the same way.
Michigan State feels the same way. But there's arenas like that all over the country. Um, but I gotta tell you, you you know, working in San Antonio, the final four, seventy three thousand people in the arena, who knows how many millions watching on television. Um, those moments are really They're really cool. And as a national coordinator, I've been able to to experience six tournaments. Uh got canceled, of course, UM, but to see that from not a refereing perspective, but
from the other side of the coin. Uh. Um, every final four is it's just it's it's what is it like to make that call? Welread you get the call when you're when somebody who is a staple of a final four isn't in the final four? What is that like for you? You know, it's it's. Uh. When when I started in two thousand and fifteen, sixteen was my first tournament, I would say, on general terms, I felt that we had thirteen to fifteen guys at that time who um were qualified, skilled and ready to work a
final four, and so the pool that's a good pool. Uh. This past year, UM, I legitimately had twenty three to twenty four guys that rated out in such a way that they deserved to work the final four. They deserve to be on the floor, and only nine of them get a referee. So I've had numerous occasions where I did not I could not reward a particular individual that deserve to be there. And generally speaking, I don't make those calls to the guys who don't get a go
UH that day. I make them over the next month. I call them, we talk um just to let him no, they didn't do anything wrong. It's it's purely UM there. It's a numbers game to a certain degree, and conference representation diversity, UM who worked at the last five years, that kind of thing. So it's those those calls get made. They're just made after the fact. The calls that I enjoy more than anything. It's the best hour of this job.
You know, you bust your hump for literally my job is twelve months a year, three or sixty five days a year. Phone is always on. UM. It's that one hour after you know, say three o'clock on Monday, after the regionals from three to four. I put in ten ten phone calls this year eleven because we had two stand by official uh. And I get to reward nine guys who are going to be on the floor and we laugh, we cry, we celebrate. UH. The first timers,
those that have never never worked on the floor before. UH, those are moments that you want. You want to acknowledge it and you also want to share in that celebration without question, they earn it. And UH, I remember what that was like when I got that phone call. He used to be from an administrator at the n C Double A and say, hey, we're you know you need
to book a fly goa da DA. And I made sure that I personally called all those officials because UH, in a hard heart job, you want that moment where you can you can celebrate with people if if you were to somebody to ask you like, obviously you made it, but you had this whole other life as the CEO. There's a guy he's loves ball, right, he goes and he he officiates it an AU event. Parents are all over him, coaches are all over him. Like I love,
I actually love doing this. I don't know if I what would you tell him in terms of the journey of you know, the idea of making to a Final four. It's really really hard. These nine guys, nine guys on planet Earth get to officiate Final Four. But you can still make a great life for yourself, enjoy all these benefits be around. College basketball makes some good money and
eventually it could be something that stands on it itself. UM, as an official, not have to do anything the rest of the year, what would your advice be to somebody who is thinking about getting into it. Well, that's a that's a mouthful question right there. You just ask. Um. My answer is we need you. The game of basketball, football, whatever it is, we need need you. Um. We need
positive people influencing young players. Whether it's an eighth grade AU or whether it's no matter what the level is, we need you and the sport needs you, and you can learn to excel at it as an individual and a team. We need you. Uh. That's that's the message. And now I'll tell you a quick story. I won't put I won't put names or teams on it, but I have an event at every Final Four. It's called the Next Generation Seminar, and we work with the local host.
So this year it was in New Orleans. So the Louisian High School Athletic Association provided US seventy up and coming officials male and female high school guys and gals, and we put a seminar on for um or. We have on the floor stuff, we have classroom stuff. I spoke to him for an hour, brought in UM, I brought in UH Monty McCutcheon from the NBA. I brought in Gene Territory to talk him, talk to him about communication.
We gave a really really good training session at these official and hopes to to move them in their own journey. Those same officials on Friday, Saturday and Sunday referee USA Basketball games. They referee the managers games. There's there's games going on all around and at one particular managers game on Sunday morning, a team's managers were playing, so the head coaching staff showed up to UH support their managers and proceeded to rip on the officiating crew like it
was a Division one crew. UH. One of the one of the young men UM his name's Joe, took up, took a pretty serious beating and at the end of the day I had someone present there and they went and addressed the coaches and finally got him to settle down and and exit. Uh, and the and the officials were allowed to continue officiating. I called Joe, first year official, he's just trying to learn, just wants to get better, wants to he wants to be that guy referee and
your kids seventh eighth grade, whatever game it is. And my message to him was the same. I just gave you, Hey, Joe, we need you. Don't let this one situation cause you to be disgusted by the game walk away and you're never gonna officiate again. We need you, and I would anybody that asked me. Um, I think youth sports is critical to our success in all of sport. And to have officials that are willing to do that and yeah, earn a few bucks, try to excel, maybe get to
to a next level whatever that is. We need officials in the game. And um, that's my How do we fix the parent behavior? How do I was on a podcast, excuse me, I was on a podcast recently and they you know, they drove at the officiating side of this. What do we need to tell the officials? And the answer to that question I said, is reversed. It's not the officials that we need to be talking to. It's the coaches, it's the players, it's the parents, it's the fans.
I am a huge supporter of an organization called officially Human, and for anybody wants to know about you can go to officially human dot com dot com. Brenda Hilton, who's a Big Ten employee, runs it and the goal of the organization. They have a series that a Little League program can adopt. They make their parents watch a two hour video do testing blah blah blah blah, to try to teach parents and fans how to be parents and fans and to support work those children. I think that's
where our efforts need to be placed. Sounds like a pipe dream, but we have to start somewhere. It's it's uh, it's less about the officials and more about parents, coaches, and fans. I wouldn't I would agree, I would agree they followed. Then they all follow the coach. Whatever the coach, you're not coaching it, you're allowing it. Right coaching, you're
allowing it. And it doesn't just doesn't just mean your players, it also means your parents as well, all right, so November one, you're gonna be up in Traverse City at the other spot, and you're gonna turn your phone off, right? Is that that what you're telling me? You know, I I have loved college basketball for so long that I am not going to walk away from it. There's too many people involved that that I think I have value
to add. But as far as having the responsibility of particularly this job and or any other job, it's time for me to step aside and to let someone else in this role that has new idea, is new approach, new passion. Uh, take what we've done in seven years and move it to another level. But yeah, I'm gonna be at the cabin a little bit more. And by the way, where my cabin is at there's a seventeen mile radius where there's no cell towers, So even if they try to call while I'm there, I'm not gonna
give me it's Uh, it's pretty quiet. It's pretty quiet. That's amazing. It's well, it's a it's an amazing retirement that's well earned, and your time. I truly appreciate it. It took a lot of time out of your day for me, and thank you so much and more and more importantly, thanks so much for what you've done for the sport, because you and I both have an incredible amount of love for the sport and you know every bit of energy has been given back is UH is
incredibly important. So thank you and thanks for joining me. You know what, thanks for It's really been fun to talk about all the things that we've talked about. We've covered a lot of ground. Again, I've I've loved the job that I've had, and it's it's just time. But more importantly to you, thank you for UM. I look at this as an opportunity to educate and inform all of your listeners about who we are as officials and the professionalism that we as officials bring to the table.
And UH, I hope it makes a difference in somebody's It's interesting because where it changed for me, I think it was I think it was jim Burg Boog and I were doing a tournament in Puerto Rico and Jimmy had he was going to dinner and all the officials were going or whatever and like, why don't you guys come along? And UM, I can't tell you how many of these guys that are your high level guys. There were young guys they are coming up, and they were just kind of we're all just kind of flies in
the wall for old Jim Burd stories whatever. But once you get to know him, you get like it's like you're it's like the website you're given out. They are human. You know, this guy's wife spreading, the guys trying to have baby, this guy's single guy, right, and you start to like, I like these guys. They love ball too, Right, that's the best part about it. Well, thank you, I appreciate being on Good luck to you all right, all
my thanks to J. D. Collins. That was amazing. Um. Remember you can download and listen, subscribe, rate, write a review, listen to part one as well. We got great stuff along the way. Um. I do think we're gonna have the Warriors and the Celtics in the NBA Finals. I think I predicted that maybe to start or did I have the nets, but I thought maybe Ben Simmons was gonna play. I don't know. Celtics have been They've been
really impressive. I'm still not willing to put the East above the West, but part of that is I also consider the West with Kauai and I'm thinking of you know, Jamal Murray being with the Nuggets and either played for either two when healthy. I still think the West has greater teams, and I think the Warriors identified them as the best before the playoffs last year. I told you check out that podcast. I told you they had something special in Jordan Pool. I didn't know it would come
together this well, but I'm pleased done the less. Anyway, Thanks so much for listening. Remember the Doug Gotlip shows daily three to six Eastern twelve three Pacific I Heart Radio, Fox sport Trader dot Com on the I Heart Radio app. In the meantime, download rate, write a review, support this thing, tweeted out to a friend. If you like it, I'm Doug Gotli. This is awful.