All Ball - Pt. 1: Marquette HC Shaka Smart on Hoops Background, Coaching Ladder Climb, Lebron Pre-Draft Workouts

Everyone has a story. And I was I was driving is actually a true story. I was driving to Bowling Green, Kentucky doing a game for Stadium Sports, and I had done one in uh Murphysboro, Tennessee like that night, and then I had one in Bowling Green, West Kentucky the next night. These are the glandless the glamorous life of of Doug gottlieb U a couple of years ago. Probably

this is pretty pandemic, I think four years ago. And the rental car I have a I have a like my rental car hack is this I will go from because I have Emerald Isle. I'll go rental car to rental car to rental car with the one with the least possible marks. Who doesn't love a car with new car smell? You know one. I can't drive something that somebody smoked in and too if I can get one with a couple hundred miles or with that new car smell. And here's the other trick is often new cars they

get free satellite radio. Now this was before my cheap ass ponied up, so I got the app whatever and the satellite radio. I hadn't listened to Stern in years. And I was driving, and I was a Megan Trainer. Megan Trainer was on was telling her story and it was about he went in to meet to l a read. She was a singer songwriter. She played the ukulele for her songs and she had to learn the entire song. Um.

But it wasn't it's all about that base. It was I'm gonna like I'm Gonna lose you you know that song? Really cool bluesy tune. Anyway, it was her life story, and I thought, man, I think about so many my friends and their stories and the quirky things that led them to where they are and the lessons they learned along the way, and how great that would be to share, and I mean this is like an audio book. Well, I think we nailed it with this one. I really do,

and I'm going to give most of the credit. Two Shaka Smart. Shaka is a really interesting human being. He's also a fantastic basketball coach and Marquette really really good. So I want you to picture this in your mind, like, what do you do that morning after maybe your biggest win the season? They just beat Yukon from the sixteen thou people, I played great. He's the toast of the town.

We have a set up interview and um parts one and two are an hour, right, we're gonna we're gonna do part three and four, but we actually haven't gotten to it yet. I'm letting you weigh inside the belt right here. Okay, So part one? Who is Shakra Smart? You probably know parts of the story. You know he's maybe you know he's from the state of Wisconsin. But wait to hear what he does, what he's always done after he loses a game. How did he become a

college coach? Wait, before college coach? Why do you go to Kenyon College in Ohio? If he's from Wisconsin, and you need to keep in mind that Wisconsin at the time in which he was coming out in high school. That was the premier they had, you know, Bo Ryan and all the Ryan you uh, this is you know right as in the era which he left and went to u W Milwaukee. But Division three basketball in Wisconsin is outstanding. Why would you go to Ohio? And then

how did you get the coaching? And then what what allowed you to climb the ladder so quickly? All right? Part one? Who is Shaka? What's he? What? What? What does he do after losses? What was it like in high school? Why go to Kenyon College? Why get into coaching? It's all in here and in those personal stories where you drive from point A to point B, and so many of you have texted me this is great. It's

a must listen for coaches, Teck. I think it's a must listen for people because it's about finding your passion and deciding that you want to do it and understanding how to climb the ladder. Also, his personal life isn't here as well. Here's part one my talk with Chaka Smart, head coach of Marquette. I'm sure you're gonna enjoy it. Yeah, Okay, So I want to kind of I like to do

chronological order. I think the brain works best that way, right, But before we do, UM, you guys at the time of this recording, you guys just beat Yukon, and there's a lot to it. But for you, considering all you've accomplished in your career, right at a young age, taking a team to the final four, obviously the various stops along the way, But when the buzzer is at zero and your team, your style beats Yukon, is there any sort of different feeling now in winning these games at

this stop as opposed to previous stops. Ah, that's a great question. I think the great thing about Marquette because there's been so much success here in the past, like um, you know, I'm talking about like the seventies UM, and then the weight ruh, and then the great things that Tom Crean and and Buzz Williams did here. There's uh, there's a real real hunger to win games like that. UM. But I think there's also an understanding that we still

have some respect to go take. We're not we're not thought of um in the same way that a Yukon is, and and we don't deserve to be yet they've won, um a lot more championships in games in recent memory. But UM, I think the great thing about here is right when you win it just it makes people so happy and most importantly the guys on the team. So that's the best best feeling. I guess maybe that maybe what I was wondering is is there ever a crisis

in competence when you're coaching you know? Um, because that's the big thing with with players, as you know, as a corner player, right, it's the it's the guys go through up and downs in confidence, and you gotta coach it. You got understanding everybody's everybody's different, you know, and college basketball has changed and evolved during your time playing it and coaching it. And I just wonder if there was ever,

you know, that crisis and competence. Then last night and some of these gigantic wins you had at Marquette, I mean, you flipped this thing. How having a heartbeat? If there's kind of a reinvigoration of you know what I do, know what the hell I'm doing? This stuff does in fact work. It's a great point and it's something that I used to work with a coach veteran coach named Larry Shyatt. Well, I'm sure you crossed paths was at some point, and he would say all the time, you know,

coaching confident coach. The confidence of a coach is literally day to day. And that was that was kind of shys perspective. But what he meant was, your confidence is based on the team that you have. I mean, you you can feel like you know the game, you can feel like you you know, you work your butt off or whatever it may be. But the guys that you have out there on the team, if they don't exhibit the qualities culturally, defensively, offensively that you want to be about,

then you're not gonna be very confident. And so yeah, absolutely, you know, for me, this is one of my two most favorite teams that I've coached in fourteen years. My other one was two thousand eleven twelve, the year after we went to the final four at VCU. And what those these two teams have in common is the guys really really really love each other, like truly, and there's also a level of humility, probably for different reasons, um about, hey we better do X, Y and Z to win.

And uh, I'll tell you when you don't have confidence as a coach is when you know your guys don't have that humility and you're struggling to put that into them, and you're gonna go into a game where they don't necessarily have a full respect for what it's gonna take.

What were you like as a high school player? Ah, passer man, You and I, You and I would have got along great, um, because I love to pass my Probably my favorite game as a high school player was a game where I had twenty assists and I think I might have shot like three times. Um. So I love to pass the ball. I love to uh to guard, pick up full court. That's where I got the pressing stuff from my high school coach. Who who's your schol Who's guy named Kevin Baver? You're still coaching in this

state of Wisconsin. He's at a different high school now. He's done a school called Middleton High School just outside of Madison, Wisconsin. Um. And he's the one Doug that got me into coaching. Him and my college coach. I never really thought about coaching, but he, uh, he would have me coach at his camps. He would have me coach, you know, youth teams and Uh, it really got me thinking along the lines of coaching. But I was a

terrible loser. You probably were too. I know you didn't lose many games, but when I was in high school, if we lost, I didn't talk to anyone for forty eight hours. And I look back on it, like, it's probably not a very mature approach, but I just I didn't handle it very well. I gotta be honest with you. I love it. I mean, I just I it's like one of those things where like social media has when people cry when they lose made fun of them, and

I'm like, dude, I love that. If you're so invested now, you can't you know now when I start, you know, coaching kids and coaching teams, Like, hey, you don't have the right to feel bad if you didn't do the work to impair yourself, right, Like, I don't feel bad. Have you missed shots and you didn't you didn't work on your shooting it up, Like, don't feel bad. There's

no big deal. Now. If you worked on it, you did everything in your power and you still lost it still to make shots, well, then you can kind of feel bad. So Okay, how good was your high school We were pretty good. We Uh, my senior year, we were upset. Um, you know, we were we were on track to go to the state Final four, which is in Madison, which is really really close to where we

lived in Um, that was devastating. That's probably if I could have any game back in my career as a coach or a player, it would probably be that game, or maybe the Butler game in the final four. Okay, wait, we'll get to the Butler game in a second. Okay. So your high school was what Oregon High School? Just outside of me. So how far from medicine is fifteen minutes? Okay? And who did you play? You played as a school called Fort Atkinson and we had beat them twice in

the regular season that we're in our conference. It's one of those deals, you know, where you beat a team a couple of times, then you play them a third time in the playoffs and um, they just they outplayed us. We did not play very well. We were a little tight, big crowd. Um, where was the game? Where was the game played? Game was at University Wisconsin Whitewater. So for that time in my life, and uh, you know, for

that area, there was a big game. It's probably four thousand people there, and uh, you know, it's it's funny now coaching in these Big East games, or you know, when I was a Texas in the Big twelve, you know, being an assistant in the A SEC, the SEC. It's one of the cool things is just the perspective of you know, you thought certain things were a big deal when you were younger, and now you know, there was sixteen thousand people at the game last night and we're

playing Yukon on national TV. So I'll never lose an appreciation for that. You get done playing in high school and you play Kenyan D three, but some of the best D three basketball is in the state of Wisconsin. So why go to Ohio? What? What was it? I know, Kames a magnificent school. Was it the academics? Like? What drew you there? No? I mean I was unlike most Division three guys. I was like our guys and and most Division one guy in that I went to Kenyon. I went to the college I went to for one

reason because of the coach. You know, I was raised by a single mom um. She raised four of us, and you know, we went through some challenging things during during my childhood so I really wanted to get away. There was no way I was going to go to school anywhere near where I grew up. I learned later in life that wherever you go, you know, there's no utopia, there's no perfect place. There's good people in every area,

there's not so good people. UM So I learned that, you know, when I was young wanting to get away. You know, maybe um was was more about just needing to learn learn about other places. But yeah, I went to Kenyon because of a coach named Bill Brown. He recruited me, uh started my junior year and um, I actually I was accepted to Harvard, Yale, and Brown and and I was kind of lightly recruited by that. I was, you know, I could have gone there and and and been part of the team. As you know, in IVY

League there's no scholarships, athletic scholarships. And um I I went and visited those schools, Doug and I was completely intimidated, not about basketball, but by the wealth and prestige and

academic credentials of all the kids there. I was from such a kind of a sheltered background from the standpoint of exposure that particularly Harvard going and visiting Harvard, I was like overwhelmed, so I said, no, I'm gonna go to this little Division three school with coach Brown uh and had a good experience, but then he left after my freshman year, which is one of the worst days of my life. Okay, so, um, how much did you

play as a freshman? I started about two thirds of the games, and UM, I we something here with our freshman. Have done it since VCU called Freshman Orientation, and it's a once a week meeting that I have with the freshman and we do it from the time they get here all the way through the end of the season. And the reason that I do it is because I think about how I was as a freshman and how

much help I needed in the mental and emotional adjustment. Um. And I really feel like that adjustment is not complete until the season ends. Take a little a few days away, and then you walk back in the gym and you just have this clarity about you and the fog has cleared and you're like, Okay, I can do this. I understand it. Now, let's go. Um. But my freshman year, I played a lot, But looking back on it, man, my confidence level, my understanding of what I didn't know,

very very low. Fox Sports Radio as the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live. All this stuff is is so relatable. I mean, like, look, I was different background obviously, right, I'm raising um, Orange, California. My parents were together, but I too wanted to get away.

And I don't know if it was my my dad was a little much, right um, but also just the whole l A basketball scene, Like I like U c l A offered me and my brother and my sisters at cheerlier there. We had season tickets there, right, Like, I love U c l A basketball, but I truthfully like wanted nothing to do with playing at u c l A just because I just I just didn't feel like the college vibe. But then when I was at Notre Dame, truth be told, I think, you know, look,

I got in trouble. But the things that you know when you look back and you get kind of get clarity on what went wrong, I too was was intimidated by the wealth and the the intelligence of everybody around me. Like I was sitting in this they have a they have one of course, taught by the president of the university,

Monk Mallow's president time. And I got in the course and Sunday nights in the Golden Dome, like literally there's a boardroom in there, and I took a class in there, and there's twelve students because there's twelve councilors they recommend one person and there it's the most diverse group and interesting group of people. But like when you hear and the first class was just everybody kind of telling their story of how and why they got there. Just go

like what am I doing here? I do not belong here? And then you factor in. I had a coach who God rest of soul. John McCloud is a magnificent man, right Like he never looked like there was never a wrinkle in his clothing, He was never unshaven, his hair was perfect. Every practice was was like a symphony in terms of like you had to practice plan and that was when we were doing it, and everything was done for a reason. But he didn't do We had one

freshman meeting and it was a weird one. He called us in and he drew a he said he first he drew up like a classroom, and you know, he circled the first two rows and you know, this is where we're gonna sit. And then he said, Notre dame, We're gonna reel in the big fish. But there just wasn't a connectivity, you know, and what you're doing for your for your freshman, you're exactly right, because every kid thinks he's got the answers and they all think they're

going the NBA. They think they're gonna come in and be one and done and started, if not, I'll just go find the next place. But he didn't. He didn't do it. Whereas coach Sutton, what he would do is you had if you were in still Water, you had to come into the office and see a coach every day and then sign in. If you didn't, there was hell up. It didn't matter like it could be any time during the year. If you're in still Water, that was the rule. You come in, just say hi, make

eye contact with a coach. So it wasn't as developmental in terms of relationships is what you're building. But it's still the same idea and I think it's incredibly important. Regards you mentioned hard times. Okay, what's the when you think back, what what what was the most challenging thing you went through going up with with your mom and

your siblings. Well, we went through some some different challenges financially, Um, when I was I think it was eight or nine, we moved about half a dozen times in the span of several months. UM, so there were some challenges there. My mom was always kind of struggling to make ends meet. I'll never forget as a young kid. Um, my mom would come home and she would make sure we were good with like something to eat, and then she would go leave again to go teach Lama's classes to you know,

pregnant couples. And I remember like just begging her not to leave because I didn't know. I was a mama's boy for sure, and I just wanted to be around her. And I looked back on that and I just didn't have any understanding of probably how I was making her feel, um when I was begging her to stay. But well, you're when you're young, You're not going to have the empathy and understanding of that. And then you know, my

my dad is black and my mom is white. Um, So one of the challenges for me was, you know, it's kind of surrounding identity. Um, you know, dealt with some different different issues with race growing up, like a lot of kids do. I'll tell you what was one of the best experiences I've ever had in my life

is when I was in eighth grade. I played on my school team which was all white except for me, and then I played at the same time on kind of I guess what people would call now an au team or a club team that was all black at the same time. And and literally we would practice like in the afternoons on Tuesdays with the school team, and then that night I would have a practice with with

my other team, the Spartans. And it was such an unbelievable cultural and basketball experience going back and forth from those two teams. How about this, how about this? It's just amazing. So I was one of the first like holdbacks, right, and I hauled back for a reason, like my son is on the same path growth wise like I was. End of eighth grade, I was five tall, I was ninety two pounds or something. And my dad had already

had like he was. He graduated high school at seventeen and then grew late, you know, so he was thinking the exact same thing, um, but the year I held back back then AU basketball and everything was all age based, not grade based, and all the kids Miles Simon's with my best friend growing up, but he went to high school. All those kids went to high school. So I had to find a new team. So two days a week I would go and my dad would take me to

Sam Miner's house. Sam lived in Compton, and I practiced with the ball that was his team, and then we would play in a league at Westchester High School. I was the only white kid in the gym, in the league whatever, And like I think my dad would like and he was, he was all about but he would maybe come to the games, but he basically had take me there and Mr Miner would make me do my homework.

I'd have dinner with his family and then we go and we'd have practice and then my dad would come pick me up, and that that was that was how he did it. And so it was unbelievably I opening for me on how like here's a a family lived thirty min us from where I grew up, but just a completely different way of eating, talking, thinking and being. And it was like I drawn it even today, right like I I messaged Coach Minor a long time ago, was like, don't call me coach. You know, like you're

a grown man now. Anyway, it's amazing. Okay, So so you get done your freshman year. How did you find out your coaches lead? I'll never forget. I can kind of see it in my mind, like like it was yesterday. I was. I had gone home two take care of my mom. She had had a hip surgery and she my my coach, Coach Brown called me and I picked up the phone, and I could just tell there was something he wanted to tell me because he wasn't his

his same kind of jovial self. And uh, I was like, what's up, coach, and he's He explained to me that he had taken um another job. He took a job a school called California University of Pennsylvania, which is the Division two program, and so he kind of went through this. He was kind of rambling on why he was leaving, as as as I learned later on in life, like it's a hard conversation, um, and so you know, at some point he kind of paused and I said, Coach,

I'm really really happy for you. This is this seems like a great thing for you, and I'll never forget. He used to call everyone budd. He called all the players. You would call him bud, he said. He said, yeah, Bud, but it's not good for you. And I remember like just hearing the He had an empathy for me. And that's one of the things when there's a coaching changes, it's it's a little messy, you know, because, um, you

want to do right by everyone, particularly your players. Um, but then there's your family, there's you know, different relationships that have changed, and there's there's a lot going on. So, um, that was a tough I remember, Doug. I probably cried for about three days. I'm an emotional guy, so I was very, very upset, and you know, thought about transferring just to get away because I had gone there just

because of him. But I had some really good relationships in place with teammates and professors and friends on campus. So I said, you know what, it's it's it's something I started, I should finish it. Um. But I certainly missed him for the rest of my career. Who's your coach? That So my next coach was really really young. I think he came in like twenty six years old, a guy by the name of Richard Whitmore, and UM, it

was just different. You know, he was coming from I think an IVY League program, and UM, I think he had played in an IVY League program, and it was different. I think when you and again I learned this over the years, just different stops and assisting of coaches and

a head coach. When you recruit someone and you developed relationship with them before they get there, and and then you know, early in their career, and then a new coach comes in, necessarily that kid sometimes seems like a quote unquote lesser kid, or lower character guy, or not quite your guy. UM. In reality, it's just a different perspective and it's a different bias. But I never really

was able to have the same relationship. You know. Coach Brown was African American, UM, you know, father figure for me. I was one of those guys probably like you, I revered coaches, I mean when I played, and I still feel this way. I mean, and that's why it's so hard for me. The way that UM, the media, I guess has changed as it relates to the the way that coaches are are talked about. UM. But I looked

at the coach like he was ten ft tall. And if he said, Okay, we're gonna run fifty miles and then we're gonna run fifty miles back, I'd be like, Okay, I'll try to do it. And it's you know, it took me a while to figure out when I got into coaching. Most players are not like that. What why why? Like again hypothesized for me, like we don't have all the answers. I saw this clip I'll send you. It's Bill self, is about a decade ago. But he said,

like it's a societal problem. I agree with you. It's like, who do what figure of authority do we speak with the proper amount of respect for? We don't want the president. We don't with Congress, you know, we we don't with you know, commissioners of sports, you know, like anybody in charge. We seem to have an issue with authority. And I don't. I don't blame kids because kids a reflection of their parents. So the parents are our age. Right, it's like my age.

And don't get me wrong, like I'll push back on authority, but like, as a player, the downfall of my career and my honest in my shooting is part of it is I listened too much to the coach, right, Like I I wanted to get the right shot every time. I feared sitting on the bench out of understanding and respect for the fact that coach, you take it, you take a bad shot out, you come buddy, right, And that was kind of how I mentally was. But my

dad was a coach, and you it was. There was no questioning, There was no like, this is not this is a dictatorship. Okay, there's no question there. But what

just again hypothesized for me because you're in it. Why do you think that we are in that place, especially for somebody like yourself, right, because you're not somebody who has You're not somebody who excuse my language, motherfucker's kids, right, You're not somebody who has any sort of off the court issues that would cause them to say, hey, you're a phony. You're not. On the other hand, you've dealt with this, you've seen it, You've worked with guys Billy

incredibly successful. But it does feel like there's a change media players, parents. Why do you think that is? I think the number one reasons money. Um, I think that when you and I were your young kids. Um, and even the generation before that, you know, coaches didn't make a lot of money, and even even professional basketball players.

You know, if you if you look back at what Oscar Robertson made or something like that, it's like a ridiculous So with the with the money exponentially changing, Um, I think that's complicated a lot of things. I'm one of the few people and I'll probably get in trouble for saying this. I wish that coach has made less but had more security. And I don't know if there's a way to do that. No, Listen, I actually agree,

you know. Like so when I interviewed for Oaklahoma State and I interviewed for a couple of other jobs, I told them, I said, listen, I don't need two million dollars, you know, and everybody told me, like that's a mistake, because you gotta be viewed at that level. You gotta put a price tag otherwise they can get rid of you. You know, coaches, a lot of coaches and I don't know if you're this way, they put a big number, big buy out, you know, not because they want it's

about making money. It's about like you said, security. They can't just make it a big enough number. So you can't buy me out if I have a bad year. If I have to that way, I can. If I have a kid who I don't, I can run the kid off, you know, if I have an injury or just have a bad year. Right, but I'm with you,

like dude, a million dollars is plenty of months. And again again, scale is all important, you know, extend it and put it's for retirement so that you don't have to worry about it and not worry about kind of the day to day. But you're right, the money thing is remember those do you ever get the Sunday newspaper? Nobody gets newspaper anymore. But remember the parade magazine that would come into Sunday paper. So I I, I, this

is what I believe. Once a year the parade magazine has what people make you know, like the post the post office worker makes seventy dollars. You start like kind of going through it, and it dramatically changes how you view people in those professions. Right the second you hear a librarian makes one like I am in the wrong business, you view the librarian completely differently. So I I think you I think you nailed it, Um with the money. Uh,

there's there's a skepticism that comes along with it. And the reality is like if if you're coaching, if you're coaching me, and we're going to try to do something really really hard, which is when a championship or even you getting me to max out as a player, which is really hard. I mean what percentage of guys really truly max out and reach their upper limit as a basketball player. And so if you're trying to do something hard, you don't have room for skepticism doubt. Uh, you know,

cloudy mind, you better be clay clear. And so I just think now there's just so much with social media hate, sound like an old guy and all the things around. There's just so much that Cloud's minds and the coach is no longer revered as a figure um And so that's okay, I mean, it is what it is now, but sometimes it can affect the ability to create a

captive audience. I really believe, Doug. Think about the best coaches in any sport and the most successful coaches in our sport, coach k Dean Smith, John Wooden, Bill Self, Billy Donovan. One thing they all have in common, and

they're all so very different in their methods. They all, through different ways, were able to create a captive audience amongst their players most importantly, but even the parents of their players, and the key constituents that allow you to be successful, the athletic director, the president, whoever it may be. And and there's always a question, well, the chicken and egg,

what came first, a success or the captive audience? I don't know, but that's something that when you look at a coach that's struggling, You look at a coach that's struggling, and you say, man, he used to be a really good coach. But what happened. He's not a good coach anymore. You know what happened? His audience is not paying attention as much as it once did for a variety of reasons. And we could probably name two or three guys off the top of our head right now in college basketball

if all under that category. It's not that they forgot how to coach. But there's this deal is complicated. Man, there's a lot going on around it. I think it's an amazing point. I was I was having a conversation with somebody today about NBA guys and their success or lack thereof sometimes in college basketball. And I said, and and you know, one of the things, and you can relate to this the reason I think that there's so

many point guards, uh that are outstanding coaches. I mean, and like you name the couple of them, right, like Billy Patino, Um, like you're I mean, you're like yourself. Like go through all of them, Bill Bill self and and most honestly, most were not as like Billy Donovan was probably you know, one of the best players, and he became a great player, but most of them were kind of like us, right where Um, you had to have that ability to connect people, You had to have

that ability to lead people. You had to work a little harder than other people, probably because of your size, right and maybe because you're athletic, ability and all of those things helped you in terms of how to lead

a basketball program. I mean again, think about like John Winn was a great player, but he was a point guard and the leader, uh and kind of professor Oriole but coach k you know, like honestly, Um, I think that's it's an interesting dynamic in the relationship of and I know that that like big guys always like, hey, the people think we don't see the court like because

you don't, you know. But so there's far fewer that are able, that are able to be that relatable, be that understandable, and have that alpha the type of leadership.

Um that that's your point out. Now you finished it, Kenyon, and then you went and worked for coach Brown at at California Pennsylvania, right, So he I stayed in touch with him after he left, and at some point, I think it was my junior year, he said, um, when you get done playing, if you want to get into coaching, you can come be a g A and be a g A for me. And I was a pretty good student, so I had a lot of professors that wanted me

to go into this really rigorous post graduate study. I remember my advisor wanted me to apply to be a Rhodes scholar um. Which is funny. You know, the basketball coach from Oxford came to our practice last week and he told me that when you go there as a Rhodes Scholar, it doesn't matter that you've completed your eligibility in the United States. You can play as long as you're a university student. Man. If I would have known that, I would have tried to go do that. I didn't

know that at the time. But anyway, so my professors were really mad at me when I went to California Pennsylvania, UM, because they wanted me to go, you know, do these bigtions academically. And it was a no brainer for me because and I don't know how this was for you. Um, when I when my senior year was coming to an end, uh, the season was coming to an end, I literally felt like death was approaching. And there was this identity, this strong, strong,

it was all I had. I mean, I was a good student, I had some friends, a girlfriend, but I didn't care about anything but basketball, being a basketball player, and so the thought of not being a player anymore really really messed me up. And I remember I had this countdown and we got seven games left in thirty two days. You know, my career is gonna be over. And it was a real identity crisis for me. So

going into coaching was like the next best thing. And I still say, twenty four years later that coaching is a distant second to playing the game. Oh yeah, oh yeah.

I mean people people ask me like I tell people at all the time, Like, do you know I would give up everything I have outside of my children, okay, to go and maybe one of them, no, okay, aside of my children, to go and like one more year of eligibility to just go to just to just go play, and you know, more specifically to play with those guys. That was I I knew I could play beyond college. I thought I could play. And you know, I just

want to play one. I just want to wear one NBA jersey, have my name in the back of it. Is just one fricking time. That was really all I ever dreamed of. Um. But I remember we lost in the Elite eight to Billy in Syracuse, and I remember it was exactly like it felt like we were at a funeral and We're sitting around the locker room and I'm looking at these guys and I'm just in tears. And I wasn't in tears that we lost because we didn't play well and they were better than They're probably

better than us. You know, we didn't have I don't think we had a particularly good game plan, but we also didn't execute the game plan, and you know, like everything that could have gone wrong went long. We thought we were gonna play Duke. That's who we wanted to play because they had beaten us our sophomore year and were they were young and we're just we had we had the hammer coming for him, you know. And I

but I just remember looking at Joe Atkins. It was my two guard, Brian Mottnotty Desmond Mason, you know, Fred John Seen, Alex Weber, even Glenn Alexander, the one guy that like kind of out of our circle now because

he's done some stupid stuff. I just remember going, like, man, it actually kind of the first time I knew what like real love for another guy was, Like I legitimately loved those guys and that time in my life, and uh yeah, when it comes to an end, like I'm getting goose bumps talking about it because it is such a hard reality. And I also think that like again, I understand the transfer portal. I transferred, but like people don't get what you get out of the relationships when

you're out of place for three years or more. Like you just Doug what you just described in terms of the relationship and the just the feeling in that locker room. Every guy that goes and plays college basketball should should experience that. And obviously not everyone's gonna be able to play in the lead aid or or or or or have a record breaking career. But that isn't that like that's the best thing about sports what you just described,

Like that's why we all plays worked. And again, I I accept that members of the media are probably the

biggest we echo of the wrong sentiments. You know. It's like I tell a story all the time that when I was in I think it was seventh grade, was when Hank Gathers died and I had I had met, I had watched them play pick up all the summer before, and I had fallen in love with l and U style, and I was watching the game when he died, and it was a hard one for me because I had had a friend when I was twelve dropped dead right after a practice, and I had this like fear, like

at the end of practice, like I could die because it happened to both of them. Um and I went to the first round game at the Long Beach Arena and it was the most incredible memorial to a human being you've ever Forty four is everywhere, but when both Kimball dribbled three times in his right hand switched to his left hand, and he made the day. He made it.

It's like it's one thing to do it to honor somebody, but to make a left handed free throw and points up to the sky and does forty four like everybody's in tears. And I just write that. I was like, that's what I want. And and I wrote that. My my dad had me write down like goals before high school, and I basically like, that's all I really wanted. I wanted to be a part of that. And the reason I coach kids now is and you know, why do you why do you want your son to play in college?

Like I don't care if my son plays at a great college. I don't care if you you know, I just want I hope I dream of as many kids as possible getting that experience where they play for a man that they revere and have respect, they play for a school that changes their lives and gives them a sports and life family, and then you have the relationships of going through the You know, I hate running. I do not. I don't mind. I can run for days in a basketball court. I hate running on the track

and I'll never forget. Like we used to do six am running, and we did six am running because my first time running at Oaklahoma State, it was August afternoon and we had to run to the track and we ran and we ran home and then dudes are falling out and it's like a hundred and five. So I would saw a coach like, coach is a bad idea. Man. He's like, well, the only other thing we could do with all your schedules run at six am. I was like, done,

I'll let's do it. I hate it. But like I remember to this day, the last time we ran in the preseason, we all had breakfast together and we all made a pact. We are never even driving by the track ever. We're never never running on a track ever again.

And like again, those things that's what it's really about, right, beating Oklahoma and and feeling like you could fly home, like to go and watch Sports Center, like even the even the losses, like those things, just that the getting in a fight with your best friend because you've just been around him too much, right, Like, those things are things that I dream of more kids getting that opportunity, And I wish that there were more people in our

positions that could convince families that. Look, I know it sucks right now, I get it, okay, but it sucks every freshman in college. It sucks for there's no freshman that's like, this is awesome. I'm not homesick, right, every It sucks for everybody. But if you just got through that. The hard thing, Doug, is what you're describing, uh, families, parents and kids. It's hard. It's it's intangible. It's intangible.

So it's hard to put a value on that, even though you and I know it's invaluable, like you, it's it's it's beyond whatever dollar amount. You can't put a price on that. It's better than that, right, Um, So why did you leave? Why did you leave? He went to Dayton from there? Right? I went to Dayton? Yeah, I was. When I was working at Calpa, I was

so happy. I would have stayed there forever. Um, but my the guy that I had gone to play for, and then I went to work for coach Brown, he said, if you want to ever be in Division one, then you got to take an opportunity when it comes. And I had worked the Dayton's camp. This is back in the old days when you worked camps. You know, I

just did. I just did one of these with Dusty Man, and Dusty was talking about all the camps you worked, and again like of the things that are gone now he does that, did you know here's a quick aside? And again what you tell me when we were pushed up against times and stuff so good? I don't know if you know this. I almost went to Marquette. I didn't know. And and I worked Mike Dean's camp after

committing to Oklahoma State. Wow, yes, because I like Dino that much and I like the guys that much and and yeah, I mean and um, I was here at that time. Mike Dean was had coach you know what players? Oh well, Brian Wortle, Uh, Mike Bargain, Mike, Mike Bargain is a great dude. Bart Miller. Um, Aaron Hutchins was our best player. So his his whole plan was like, hey, Aaron's a two europe poet, Like, bro, we're gonna we're gonna be oompa loompas. He's like, don't worry, you guys

will kill it whatever. And Dino is one of these guys that like, again, if you're bothered by it. His favorite word as cocksucker, right, bart Sucker, Like he's like but in terms of like the love that he turns on for you is amazing. Right. So guys that played for Mike Dean loved Mike Dean even though he's a crazy person. When I visited there, Chris Crawford was there and Anthony Anthony Peeper. So I I go into the dorms and this is this is a beauty. It was in the spring, and I go and visit and I

go to Crawford Peoper. Crawfords knows Woody because he looked like Woody from Cheers. And so I go in. There's a couple of beer cans on their table and uh. I was like, hey, you really, you know, pick the place up for me. Huh. And they're like, no, no no, you don't understand. That's the pyramid. I was like, it's like five beer camps. He was like, by the time you leave, it's a pyramid. So I was. I loved, Like my visit was great. We went to a Brewers game and we had beers with the coaches. And I'm

not really a beer guy. I'm not really a drinker at all, but for the weekend I was, so I actually came back. So I committed to Oaklahoma State sign an Oakahoma State, and Um, when I talked to Mike Dean and told him, he's like, I'm pissed. You know you should come play for me, not that old funk already sudden like, but you want to wear camp. I was like, Mike, I just told you I'm going to

oaklhom and say, I know, come work camp. So I went to work camp and your camp no, No, And I was kind of I was dating Nicki Colin that she was Nicki Tagger at the time. She's the coach of Baylor and she was the point guard. So it was dating her and I had a great time in the camp. It was awesome, and I actually came back. Uh, Nicky and I were dating. So I did Christmas that year in Platteville, where she grew up. So I was around Marquette and then we stayed at night at Marquette.

Like no, he was awesome. Um, but yeah, the working the camp thing is it's another part that's going away. And that was all about relationships, right, and that's what happened. That's how Bill self got to Kansas. He went and worked Larry Brown's camp. Those are gone. So I I had worked uh Dayton's camp a couple of times, and then so I worked for Oliver Purnell, you remember him at Dayton, and he did a really smart thing. When he had a job opening, he would have everyone come

work camp. So it's like ten guys working the camp trying to get the job. And it made for a good camp because these guys who are working their ass off in camp. But then it also was a great kind of window into who these people were over the course of a five day camp. And so I was fortunate to go there and that was my first time being in the Division one setting, and it was like I was like a kid in a candy store. Man

Like University of Dayton. I'm sure you've been around it some like it's a similar Marquette in terms of just unbelievable history of winning and then just a tremendous crowd support and fans support and introa basketball. Yeah. My, I tell people this all the time. A broadcast a lot of nca games. The greatest game I was ever a part of got chance of broadcast was the first four game that Dayton played in against Boise State because it was. It was a Dayton home game, but they weren't the

home team. It was the most unreal atmosphere. Came down to the last second play whatever that they want on and then we followed them to the Columbus you know for the next next two and they made the Sweet sixteen. That's what it was. I mean, I I and I've done plenty of dating games, so I have complete respect for him and and the understanding where they fit in Ohio Division one basketball. But that game, and I know they have had other greater successes, but it was it

was ridiculous. So how did he tell you that you were the guy? He was tough? I mean, I was working at camp and I had no idea where I stood. And then he called. You know, he Oliver was very very business like, particularly you know, with with with folks that are not necessary on his inner circle yet, so he just he called me a few days later and he offered me the job. And man I I thought that I was. I was, I had hit the jackpot. My my salary was twenty four thousand dollars at Dayton,

So man, I was. I went from living in a place at Calpa that caused a hundred and fifty dollars a month to get in an apartment that costs six hundred dollars in a month. So I was I was big time at that point. Uh what was it? What was it? Like? A date? Was unbelievable, just a great learning experience and for a young coach, it was it was really good. And that I was in charge of all the video stuff. So I was literally in this

video room that was about eight by ten feet. It was like a closet for about eight or ten hours a day, and my job was to kind of break down opponents, breakdown our team, you know, typical video guys stuff.

I also had the job at the time of recording every college basketball game that was on TV around the country, and that was a big job at that time because you had to set the satellites and set the VCRs, and you had to do it multiple times a day on the weekends when games started early and went through the night. Um, you have to get all the West Coast games. But what it did is it just exposed

me to a ton of basketball. And I can still tell you about like all these different teams that I remember watching, all Jay Wrights, Villanova teams, because we played them my two years at dayton Um in his early years at Villanova, and it just kind of got me interested in Jay, right. So then even when I left dayton I continued to follow their team and how he played and how they evolved, and that's really helped me and coaching that foundation. How did you lead into the act,

How that took place? Well, Oliver got the Clemson job. We were down in New Orleans at the Final Four, and I mean, you've been to many final fours. We were on Bourbon Street and I was twenty six years old and we were in an outdoor bar and somebody kind of tapped me on the shoulder and they pointed up at the TV screen and it was Sports Center and there was a picture of Oliver Purnell with the Clemson logo. And that's how I found out that he

had taken the Clemson job. Uh. Like I said, Oliver was pretty close to the vest, so he you know, he hadn't told a lot of people, and he took the job. So I went down there with him. I was down there for about five weeks, but I was not in an assistant coach position. I was like operations, and I really wanted to get on the court, and so Coach Brown, my college coach, called me and he said, if I can get you the job at Akron, would

you take it? And I said absolutely, And so he got me an interview with Dan Hipster, who was a head coach at Acron at the time. Awesome guy, and it was the easiest interview I've ever done. He said, can you recruit? I said, yeah, I think so. I can do a good I'll work hard at it. Can you work with the guards, Yeah I can. I can work with the guards. I played guard. I feel like I know position pretty well. Can you do a scouting report? Oh yeah, I did all the video stuff the last

few years. Uh you know, when I was at Dayton and and before. So I definitely can do that. Okay, you got the job, and uh so I went to to Akron and Akron was definitely the most important coaching stop in my whole career because I met my wife there and then this isn't why it was the most was the most important, but this is an interesting aside. My very first day on the job, Keith dan Brod, who was an assistant coach who we can't ended up becoming a head coach. Later, he said, I want to

introduce you to someone. I said, great, And we got in this car and we drove to this rec center, Jim, and we're standing in the gym at the rec center. It's the middle of the day, so there was no kids there. They were all in school. And a hummer pulls up and out of the hummer walks Lebron James and he walks into the rec center and Keith throws me the ball and he says, come on, we're gonna work out Lebron. And so I was kind of in

the right place at the right time. I helped Keith work out Lebron Jame for about two months in between May and July, going into his first season in the NBA. That was a lot of fun. It's amazing with here. Here's an interesting aside. I got to ESPN. I had done games for a year and then went back and played in France. The guy who hired me at ESPN was a guy named Dan Steer, and so and I would. I did local radio for a year in Oklahoma City. So I I get back from France and I do it.

I'm in a mini camp with the Timberwolves and I called Dan Steer from the hotel room and I said, Dan, Um I would love to do the NBA draft. I'm the most repaired guy you can get. He's like, well, come on, manas like, why would you say that? Well, Um, I played against Um Darko twice when I was in Israel, and he was obviously the number two pick. I played against Boris DL Michael Petres like two weeks ago. And then my dad's and a you coach, you know, I

know all the high school guys. And then my brother's assistant at San Diego State, we know, and I worked for you, so I know all the college guys. He's like, well, I can't use you, but maybe radio can. And so I actually flew to New York to the NBA Finals just to meet the guy who's in charge of radio. He's like, sure, yeah, fine, Like somebody called me about you. Anyway,

I was on that draft. But what I remember about Lebron James, and obviously now it it makes sense, but I remember mellow Chris Boss, who had known because he'd come to our games at Oaklahoma State, Joe Johnson, some of those guys were all in that draft. I remember when Lebron walked in. I've never met him before. He was a high school kid. And you know they say in basketball sometimes like well that guy sneakers squeak different, Like he's just different than the rest of people in

terms of presence. I've never seen anything like it. Like here's he was like an eighteen year old kid, incredible, from a single parent home in Akron, Ohio. And that dude had the type of press. It was like Jesus himself walked in and decided, I'm going to talk about basketball day. Right, that's a Is that a fair like when he walked into him and obviously had been in the NBA, But there's just a presence about it. Yeah,

And and part of it is his mind. He is really, really, really smart, And I don't think he gets enough credit for that because people look at him and they see his physical prowess. But he's one of the most intelligent people I've ever been around in my life. Okay, how did you meet your wife? By the way, you can't bury the lead blind date? Uh, friend of mine who's the chief of staff for the president and introduced me as she actually tried to introduce me to her stepdaughter first. Um,

and we never met. Wait wait, so wait, who who's this? Who's who's said at the BLA date? What's your actual name? So this woman is a great close friend of mine. I text her every day, every morning I text her. Her name is Candice Campbell Jackson. She's actually she works for the chancellor of Syracuse University. She's like the chief

of staff. UM, really really bright, howard educated woman, and she was at Akron and she wanted to hook me up with somebody, and so she tried with her stepdaughter first. We never ended up meeting because her stepdaughter, I think, moved away, and so her second choice was, uh, my current wife, Maya. And uh I learned, you know, later on in life, that the most important decision that you make in your life is who you choose to marry UM, and and that it's just the far reaching effects and

consequences of that decision UM are so critical. So you know, I was really really lucky to get introduced to her. Where'd you go on the Black Day? We went to a place called Jillian's and Acron and we watched the CALVS game And it was great because Um Maya got kind of an introduction right away and us being together of like just my passion for basketball and just how nutty I am about it, and then it's just kind

of always on my mind. That's awesome. She's a keeper, right if on your first on a blind date, she'll watch a basketball game with you, well, I mean, as you know coaches wives, I mean it pretty much gotta be a saint. Yeah, And so it helps so much when there's an understanding of the profession before you get engaged or before you get married. You know what you're getting into. And so she got that definitely on our first date. And moving forward, when when did did get

fired or did he leave go somewhere else? He did? He did? It was you know, it was we had a really talented team, but we had a kind of a group of guys that were challenging to manage. Um. So yeah, I mean we we as a staff were let go for you know, I'll never forget. We lost in the conference tournament. Um, and you know, kind of got the news from coach hip that that the A

D had made the change. And so one of the things in this profession that's really odd and unique is that like when there's a coaching change and you're on a staff you don't really know what to do, like you just you know, it's like, hey, what do you know? You make some calls and you know, so we're all sitting in the office and Keith Danbrock came in my office and he said, the A D. The A d's name is Mike Thomas. He wants to see you. And

so I went up to Mike Thomas's office. And again this is just hours after you know, finding out that um, you know, coach Hipp had got let go. And he said to me, D D said how are you doing? Shocker? And I felt like saying, well, not very good man like yeah, like this is not a good day. But um, I was like I'm okay, I'm fine. And then he said, well listen, um, We're gonna have a press conference tomorrow and I'm gonna name Keith the head coach, and I

would like for you to stay. And so it was kind of the shortest window probably in coaching, of of not having a job. I guess technically I always had a job, but um, it was it was a unique thing. And then Keith did an unbelievable job at Akron. I mean, he he didn't get as much credit for national as you should have. But at one point there was like a list of six schools that had won twenty two, twenty three games in the season for I'm teen years in a row, and it was like all the heavyweights

and acron what allowed him to be successful, unbelievable. You know you talked about UM coach Sutting Sutton having the players come by the office. Keith is the best I've ever been around at spending time with the players and making sure that the staff did the same thing. And he used to have us do this thing. I hated. I hated this. After every practice the whole staff had to go into the locker room and just hang out

for ten to fifteen minutes. And I'm one of those type of guys, like I want to go do the next thing, Like I got recruiting calls in it, I got I gotta work on a scouting report, you know. I but it was ingenious, one of the best things in retrospect ever, because Keith was really hard on those guys.

In practice. There was definitely some choice words spoken throughout the three and a half hours of practice, but that time spent in the locker room with those guys afterward It really repaired relationships and it basically got us back to like even in terms of like everything's okay, and now they can come back in tomorrow and we can do it all again. But if we hadn't spent that time, he hadn't made us do that, it would have it would a snowbolt. S Yeah, it would a snowbolt. Um,

how did you guys play style wise? How did you play? Well? I mean we Keith did a great job because we didn't have the greatest roster um his first couple of years, so we played kind of however. You know, however, we needed to. Like our first year, his first years a head coach, we had a five five point guard, so you know we pressured. He pressured the ball and tried to be aggressive, and you know we mixed in some pressing. Um. Keith is a great offensive coach. He actually meeting potatoes.

And I know this is gonna sound crazy because I worked for Billy Um, but just the meeting potatoes of basketball, like x ando, basketball coaching the game of basketball, not psychology, No, not any of that. He's the best coach I've been around. Uh, really really good. Why did you and pet my wife? Uh? One of many times you're married that you're married at that time. We're engaged at the time. Can't can't get away without telling me how you asked me. I messed

that up. Man. We went on vacation, um, and we we we were just you know, we've been together for about six months and we were talking about the future, and uh it was basically like, hey, you know, we could get married, and she's like, yeah, we could, and I'm like okay, and uh she said okay. Net year and then that was how we got engaged. So it wasn't really, uh, any type of romantic proposal. That's the

greatest kind of commitment. It's like when you're having you're having a recruiting called like all right, I'm coming, that's it, you know. And then I I made the most rookie novice mistake of all time. I'm sure you've heard of people doing this. We went to the jewelry store together to buy a ring, and the guy completely his eyes just lit up when he saw us because he knew he was gonna get us. So I basically I spent

my life savings. I didn't have much money at that time. UM, I spent every dime I had on that ring, so at least we're still together. But yeah, my, Um, I could have stated acting forever. I loved it there. I mean I love living there. Um. I love Keith, probably the closest guy that I've been. He's the closest I've been with any I that I've worked with. Um. But Ma is like, what are you talking about? Like, it's an A C C job and you if you want to become a head coach, like, and you have to

make that move. And plus you know Oliver and you love him and so it's not like you're going somewhere blind. Um. So she went out like she normally does, and we went down to the Clemson. I was there for two years and I loved it down there. Okay, so now you know we still have to get to working for all of Pernell. How do you get to Florida? How do you get the VCU job? So much other great stuff.

I make few promises for you, but I can promise you that Part two as good or better than Part one, and it will you be it will leave you yearning for part three in part four. Anyway, my my, my sincere thanks to Shaka Um. He was incredibly gracious with his time and with how open he has been in our really a conversation. Um yeah, this is one to definitely send to your friends. It's a good one anyway. A reminder, The Doug Gotlip Show is daily daily three

to five Eastern Time, twelve to two Pacific. We have the ind the Bonus podcast just like an hour almost like a radio show, and self podcasts. You download that in the meantime to tweet this thing out. Don't be afraid to subscribe, rate, review, tweet, retweet, put it on Facebook, send it to a friend because it's incredible stuff in terms of his path, and so many of you listen and you're either on your own path or you want to start showing path, or you've had your own path

and you're fascinated by others, especially guys interesting in shock. Alright, stay tuned from bar two. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is all ball