Does genetics influence sex and gender?

Happy Pride, DNA! Kate Wilson here with another episode of All Access DNA.

In today's episode, we are talking to Kim Zahowski, she, her, about sex and gender. Kim gives understandable explanations and deep insights into how people view sex and gender, as well as the political arena's involvement in discriminatory policies. Kim is a genetic counselor, researcher, and assistant professor at Boston University. Her research focuses on the intersection of LGBTQIA plus care and genetics.

I learned so much from Kim and encourage you to listen and learn as well. Let's get started. Music.

Well, thank you so much, Kim, for being on the show. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. First, I wanted to talk about sex and gender and what the difference is between sex and gender. Yeah. So sex and gender are often used interchangeably, but they're not the same thing. So sex is usually described as biological. It refers to characteristics like chromosomes, hormone levels, reproductive anatomy, secondary sex traits like voice pitch or body hair.

And it's what gets assigned at birth, typically based on just genitalia. And this is just based on what the doctor sees. But an important caveat in talking about sex is that sex isn't as fixed or simple, as often we're told, you know, biology isn't binary. People are born with a combination of traits that don't typically, or don't fit typical definitions of male or female. These folks are often regarded as intersex. And for everyone, these biological factors can change over time.

For example, hormones shift during puberty, pregnancy, menopause, or with medical treatments, surgeries, medications, and even environmental exposures can influence how our bodies express sex characteristics. And so again, while sex has biological characteristics, heuristics, it's still changeable and influenced both by nature and nurture. Gender, on the other hand, is about identity, culture, and expression.

It's about how you feel and know yourself, whether that's being a man, a boy, a woman, a girl, both, neither, non-binary, or something else entirely. Gender is how we communicate our identity to the world, also through expression like clothing, behavior, or roles. And unlike sex, gender is not assigned, It is lived. It's shaped by the society that we live in. Different cultures have different ideas of what being masculine or feminine

means. And even within the same culture, ideas about gender shift. So what it means to be a man or woman 100 years ago is very different from what it means today. So I guess at the bottom of line, neither are binary. Sex is often rooted in biological traits, but it's also diverse and changeable. And then gender is personal and social and cultural and evolves too. I think that's a very helpful way to explain it.

And I think it is something that people have used interchangeably, but, you know, it really should not be used interchangeably at this time. And really, healthcare providers I've seen have been trying to make more of a concerted effort to be specific in what they're talking about when they refer to sex or to gender. Yeah, absolutely. I think people try to fit other people into tidy boxes, but the reality is that humans don't fit into tidy, neat boxes.

And I think that's exciting and something to be celebrated.

Definitely. And you had mentioned chromosomes when talking about sex. And I think that's the one where I feel like a lot of people kind of get stuck on is the chromosomes. So tell me a little bit more about how they determine or influence sex and gender. Yeah. So people are often talking about sex chromosomes, which are referring to often two chromosomes that people have, but sometimes more or less XY chromosomes. So chromosomes influence sex, but they don't determine it in a vacuum.

Most people with XX chromosomes have female sex characteristics, for example, and most with XY chromosomes have male characteristics. But again, biology is not that clean cut. There are people who have XY chromosomes who develop female characteristics or vice versa. And again, this is because sex development is a complex interplay of genes on other chromosomes, as well as the environment and hormone and receptors and timing.

And so, you know, I think it's sex chromosomes are related to sex, but they don't determine sex. And certainly when it comes to gender, chromosomes have even less of a say. Gender is rooted in personal identity and shaped by a combination of brain development and cultural messaging, family language and life experiences. And so at the end of the day, you can't predict someone's gender from a DNA test because it's not something that's coded in our genes.

It's something that's lived and felt and discovered as someone, you know, goes through their life. And so I guess that's why people on some forums now and asking, it talks about biological sex, right? Because that's kind of talking about, I guess, kind of the, how to say it, like an internal factor, like you were saying, like more kind of something that somebody, how they're born and not necessarily something how they identify.

Is that what we're looking at when we ask for biological sex? I think when people are asking about biological sex, it can mean a whole host of different things. Asking about biological sex is actually very nonspecific. The reason we ask about sex assigned at birth is because that really is just at this point in time, this is what a doctor said based on examining likely someone's genitalia.

But biological sex is really complex because, you know, we all have different ways our body expresses different sex characteristics that changes over time. Like when someone's born and through puberty and through menopause. And so I think biological sex is often described in an oversimplistic way because people want to bucket people into easy, clean categories to help make decisions about medical care and so on.

But again, I think it's a little oversimplified and it makes it hard to understand what sex actually is. That's helpful to know and hadn't been something I thought about before, Because you do mention, you know, thinking about kind of putting people into different buckets. And it seems like there's a lot of push to be you're either this or you're that, right? So very binary.

So sex isn't necessarily binary, is gender binary. Yeah. So gender is, in short, non-binary. And in Long, the idea that there are only two genders, man, woman, boy, girl, is not the universal truth. It's a cultural construct largely shaped by Western norms and colonial histories and not a fixed biological fact. While many societies today do operate on this assumption of a binary model, it's far from the whole picture.

And in fact, across time and cultures, human beings have always expressed genders in ways that challenge this binary. For example, indigenous cultures, many nations have long recognized identities beyond man and woman with two-spirit folks. The term two-spirit is used by some indigenous people to describe a sacred and respected role that encompasses both masculine and feminine energies or might exist entirely out of that duality.

In Southeast Asia, there are folks who are Hijra that have existed for thousands of years, and Hijras are officially recognized as a third gender in many countries like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh. In pre-colonial Hawaii, there were people who are mahu. In Oceania, there are people who are fafine. You know, there's so many examples like in the Philippines, in the Balkans, in Indonesia. And so all this to say that these identities are not new.

What is newer is the effort to erase them, often through colonialism, which imposed these rigid gender roles and suppressed non-Western understanding of human experience. So when people claim that gender diversity is a modern trend or a Western invention, they're not only wrong, but they're ignoring thousands of years of human history. Many cultures have long understood that gender is not binary and has never been.

And I think also when people talk about trans people, they think that it's erasing men or women. And I don't think trans people are not erasing women. It doesn't deny anyone's identity to recognize that gender exists off of a binary. It simply broadens the frame for everyone to be celebrated and live authentically. So that was a longer rant. But when we talk about gender today, we're not inventing something new. We're reconnecting with something that's actually quite ancient and human.

And I think, again, the theme here is just that people don't fit into one narrow mold. And I think it's helpful. You mentioned about it's not erasing men or women, right? So if somebody still chooses to identify in that way, that's fine. It's really just broadening that spectrum, that horizon to be inclusive of all types of gender and sex.

Yeah. And I think when we start breaking down gender roles, it actually gives everyone freedom to explore more about themselves and more about what they like to do and their hobbies and their passions and their own sense of self. And so I actually think that, you know, if anything, embracing gender diversity gives everyone more freedom. That's a really good point. And so you mentioned gender diversity.

So I've heard the terms transgendered and gender diverse individuals. So again, like we talked about sex and gender, Are these terms interchangeable or do they do mean two different things? Yeah, so transgender or trans is a term for people whose gender identity doesn't align with the sex they were signed at birth. For example, someone who's assigned male at birth who is a woman, is a transgender woman. You know, some might change their names, appearance, pronouns,

or undergo medical care. Some do not. Gender diverse is typically thought of as just a broader term that includes anyone who doesn't conform to traditional ideals of male or female that might include non-binary people, genderqueer folks, agender people, and again, people who just don't exist between these kind of quote-unquote standard categories. Some non-binary people, for example, don't consider themselves to be transgender. Others do. So gender diverse is kind of just a broader umbrella.

Well, and I think that's helpful too because I think some folks struggle with trying to be like, okay, if sex aside at birth matches this gender identity. And what you're saying is it is very fluid, right? It's dependent on the person, not the terminology, and how they see themselves, they view themselves, how they feel themselves. Yeah. And I think the important thing, too, is gender changes over time. But what I meant to say is that language changes over time.

A lot of this language is relatively recent language. There's older language that people use, but all of it just recognizes that there is diversity in these experiences. And like you said, it's been around for quite some time. So some of the language may seem newer, but what we were talking about isn't. And there's cultures where it's been around for thousands of years. Yeah, totally. Exactly. And one of the other terms that you hear a lot about is cisgender.

So we talked about transgender. What does cisgender mean? Yeah. So cisgender or cis means that your gender identity matches the sex you were signed at birth.

So if you're assigned female at birth and are a woman, you are cisgender. And I also want to say that both of these terms, transgender, cisgender, they are neutral terms that describe a common experience, just like saying someone's right-handed or left-handed. It helps us distinguish between different gender journeys without implying one is better or more natural or more valid than another.

It's just another descriptor. Okay. And some of the terms that I know we were going to go over, and I would like to hear more kind of your thoughts about it. We did talk to Caitlin Brown on an earlier episode, and I'll include in the show notes a link to their episode.

But tell me more about the terms intersex and variations of sex characteristics. Yeah, so the terms transgender and cisgender refer to our gender terms, and we talked about what gender is earlier, whereas intersex variations of sex characteristics, sometimes called differences of sex development, are referring to someone in relation to sex or those more biological traits.

So intersex is an umbrella term for people who have sex traits like chromosomes, hormones, anatomy that don't fit the typical definitions of male or female. These differences can show up at birth or during puberty or even later in life. Some people only incidentally find out that they have intersex variations through genetic testing sometimes.

And again, this is more describing the diversity of sex rather than the diversity of gender, which are often linked, but, you know, are still completely distinct concepts. And you mentioned when we were talking about some of the genetic conditions. So we talked about like the XXXY chromosomes, but chromosomes are only a part, right, of sexual development. What are some other genetic conditions that influence sex characteristics? Yeah.

Yeah. So certainly there are genetic variations that are related to sex chromosomes, like having more than an X and a Y. So people with XXY, for example, or sometimes called Klinefelter, have an extra X chromosome. Typically, these folks are assigned male at birth. They may have lower levels of testosterone. Those who have XY chromosomes may have less body hair. There are also other variations in sex characteristics that don't have something to do with how many sex chromosomes you have.

For example, there's one called androgen insensitivity, which is when someone has XY chromosomes, but their cells aren't responding to androgens or hormones like testosterone. And so typically folks with androgen insensitivity might develop female physical traits, for example. So I think it's important to recognize that some folks who are intersex, it might have to do with their sex chromosomes, but some people it has to do with genes on other chromosomes, for example.

Or sometimes we do genetic testing because someone has some variation in a sex trait and we can't figure it out at all with genetics, just showing that not everything is genetic or some things we just don't understand fully.

I think that's why, you know, when we see this current legislation, right, that's talking about male and female, and it's defining it either by XX or XY, or I believe in the executive order, it talks about basically like female has the egg, male has the sperm, but I don't even think it calls it that.

It's some very bizarre wording. The small gamete or the large gamete or something like that. Yes, small gamete or large gamete. So tell me more about why this is scientifically incorrect when we define male and female in this way. Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing to understand this is that it's really overly simplistic. And frankly, it's just wrong. Not everyone with XY chromosomes, for example, develop male traits.

Not everyone with XX chromosomes develop, you know, what we think of as female traits or can carry a pregnancy.

Some women have x y chromosomes some men are infertile you know intersex people exist reproductive capability isn't really a reliable or inclusive way to define anyone's identity so science tells us that sex involves evolves in multiple layers and that involves again chromosomes hormone levels gene expression internal external anatomy and so on and so So defining sex based on one trait, like gamete production or chromosomes, ignores all of this complexity.

It's not how biology works, and it's not how people live.

And I think this leads into the next question, and we talked about it somewhat with Caitlin as well, is the weaponization of terminology, the weaponization of these scientific misconceptions, and how does this happen in policy? Yeah. Yeah. And I think this is really the critical question right now in the United States, because it's where science and society collide in the deeply personal and right now very harmful way.

So when we use scientific misconceptions, when we say that they're weaponized, we're talking about the deliberate misuse or the selective use of scientific ideas to justify political agendas, often at the expense of marginalized group. And right now that's happening in a very focused way as it relates to sex and gender. So let's take a step back. Science, when well done, is about curiosity and complexity.

It embraces nuance and uncertainty and the reality that humans don't always fit into neat boxes. But political discourse, in political discourse, complexity often gets flattened into black and white thinking because simple narratives are easier to legislate and easier to rally people around emotionally.

So instead of acknowledging that sex and gender are both multifactorial, lawmakers will say things like, a person's sex is determined by their chromosomes, or only people who produce eggs can be women. And these kinds of statements sound scientific, but they're not. They ignore decades of research in genetics, endocrinology, neuroscience, and psychology. They erase the lived experiences of intersex and transgender people.

And then they collapse biology into one rigid definition, often in service of laws that restrict rights rather than protect them.

And so we see these consequences everywhere in policies that ban transgender youth from sports based on so-called, quote-unquote, that biological sex, ignoring the vast variation in strength, endurance, and body type that exists for all people, regardless of whether they're cis or trans. We see it in policies that limit gender-affirming care, even though this care is backed up by every major medical association.

We see it in policies that force people to use bathrooms or carry IDs that don't reflect who they are, creating daily risk for them, for people, for harassment and violence. And we see this in people being stripped of legal recognition, like intersex and non-binary folks, effectively erasing them from public life. So... All of this is more than just bad science. It's really bad ethics. It's policymaking that uses the veneer of objectivity to justify discrimination.

And, you know, ironically, many of these laws claim to follow the science, but the real science tells us the exact opposite. That sex is not binary. That gender is not determined by chromosomes or gametes. That biology alone can't account for the full complexity of who we are. So when we reduce and weaponize science to soundbites and slogans, it stops being a tool for discovery and becomes a weapon of control.

It fuels fear by suggesting that people who don't conform to narrow definitions are somehow unnatural or threatening or broken. And this kind of rhetoric doesn't just harm individuals, it also undermines public trust in science itself. So again, I guess all in all, at its best, science can help us understand the rich tapestry that is human life. But when it's distorted to serve these rigid ideologies, it stops becoming about truth and starts being about power.

So as people, educators, clinicians, policymakers, the real challenge is, are we using science to expand understanding and empathy, or are we using it to justify exclusion and division? Because how we answer that question has real consequences for real people, for their health, for their rights, and for their ultimate humanity. Oh, Kim, you're blowing my mind. That is just a beautiful answer, and I feel like you've conveyed.

So much in that response. And I would say thinking in terms of sex and gender, but honestly, that broader scope that I think a lot of us who work in the science field are trying to figure out right now is the science being utilized for control and power, increasing public misinformation, mistrust of that science, and not using it to expand that understanding. Yeah, exactly. And it's horrifying. It is. It is.

And I think that's why I do feel like it is a battleground. I don't feel like that's overstating it to say right now in terms of science and working with the public. Yeah. And I think people use fear mongering to gain more power. And that's what we're seeing a lot too. And I think that's what we talked about with the weaponization of terminology, with the weaponization of including some of this in policy is it's trying to assert that power and that fear mongering.

Yeah. Yeah. So tell me, thinking about in terms of fear, when we talk about things like transphobia, right? So we've talked about transgender, gender diverse individuals, and then you'll hear people talking about transphobia or fear. I would argue that I don't think it's necessarily fear because it seems much more harmful than being afraid. Tell me a little bit more about transphobia and how is that rooted in misogyny? And I think this is a really important thing to talk about right now.

I think that transphobia and misogyny aren't separate forces. They're actually deeply intertwined. So at their core, both are about controlling who gets to exist, speak, move, or thrive in public spaces? And who doesn't? And so let's start with misogyny. Misogyny isn't just about hating women. It's about distrusting or devaluing anything that isn't perceived, or sorry, anything that's perceived as feminine.

It shows up in the belief that women are inherently weaker or more emotional or less rational. It tries to box women in by saying, this is what a woman should be. This is how she should act and how she should behave. And anything who steps outside of those boxes, cis women included, gets punished. Now enter transphobia, especially targeted towards transgender women. These individuals are often targeted not just because they are trans, but because they're seen as violating the rules of womanhood.

There's this harmful assumption that if someone was assigned male at birth and then embraces femininity or identifies as a woman, they must be deceptive or threatening or perverse. And that's not a rational concern. It's, again, a fear rooted in misogynistic ideas about bodies, gender, and control. So here's where the overlap becomes visible. Many transphobic laws passed are under the guise that we are protecting women and girls.

They claim that allowing trans women into women's bathrooms or sports or shelters is a threat to cisgender women. But this argument rests on that same age-old stereotype that women are fragile or need constant protection from male violence, rather than addressing the actual causes of that violence, which is toxic masculinity or rape culture or lack of enforcement around abuse.

Really what people are saying when they're saying it's protecting women and girls is that they're worried about men abusing women. And so when lawmakers are saying they're protecting women, we have to ask which women? Because history shows that protection has often been used to justify exclusion and control, whether it's denying women the right to vote or banning them from the workplace are now using women's safety as a wedge to attack trans rights.

So feminism that excludes trans people is not feminism, because true gender justice means that we're tearing apart the systems that hurt us all, cis women, trans women, non-binary people, anyone who's ever been told that their body, identity, or existence is wrong. And so at the end of the day, transphobia and misogyny are just two sides of the same coin. Both are rooted in the fear of people who challenge gender norms and both rely on these narrow, outdated ideas of what it means to be a woman.

When we fight for gender equity, we can't leave anyone behind. Yeah. And I always thought that was an odd argument in terms of like the bathroom usage. And again, this is anecdotal, but it's several times I can think of in college having to help someone out because a man followed them into the bathroom. And myself being followed into a bathroom and I was like the fear is always the the straight guy hanging out at the bar like it's never been beyond that I would just say for for my experience.

Yeah, it's all these hypothetical situations that aren't actually rooted in reality. The reality is trans people just need to use the bathroom just like any of us need to, and we're not creating a safe space for them to do that. But then now we're targeting them for discrimination when they're, again, just trying to use the bathroom in peace.

And how does this misinformation affect intersex health care? Yeah. So I think at the root of trans justice and intersex justice is this desire for bodily autonomy. You know, trans folks have been fighting for rights and access to healthcare that they need in order to live their authentic lives, whether that be hormones or surgeries, which not every trans person wants, but some do. Whereas intersex people, misinformation about sex being binary and obvious has really harmed intersex people.

Intersex children are often subjected to unnecessary surgeries to make their bodies quote-unquote fit societal expectations. And these surgeries have been shown to create lasting physical and psychological harm.

And as Caitlin talks about in the other episode, we're not talking about surgeries that like allow someone to urinate that is a necessary bodily function, but really unnecessary cosmetic surgeries that are done under the guise of, oh, this kid will be bullied because of how their genitals look or something like that. And so I feel like intersex care is one of the only places that we're doing surgery to appease parental worry versus addressing the stigma that actually is the cause of that worry.

And so a lot of families might feel misinformed or feel pressured to correct their child. And medical professionals might offer these surgeries that are not actually necessary for the child or could be postponed even until the child has their own autonomy. And so again, for intersex folks, the key to improving intersex healthcare is informed and compassionate policy that respects bodily autonomy, recognizes natural variation, and doesn't try to erase it.

Yeah. And I think what I took away in talking with Caitlin is that in thinking about healthcare for transgender individuals, you can't exclude or leave behind folks who are intersex as well. Like we have to figure out a way to make. Improve healthcare for both of these groups? Because while there might be some overlap, there's also some things that are going to be unique to each group in terms of what they need for healthcare.

Absolutely. And the irony in all these policies that are banning gender-affirming care is that they have specific carve-outs for intersex people that allow the same care that is being prohibited from trans people to be enforced on intersex people to, again, fit these binary categories.

So again, I think these policies really show the irony there and also the desire to control people and make people conform to kind of societal expectations of what sex and gender should be, which is just harming everyone. I think, you know, often people weaponize the movements against each other, but at the core, it's all about autonomy and just a right to live authentically. Right. And a right to decide what you do with your own body. Absolutely. Yeah.

When folks are talking about sex and gender, is there a way that we can be more inclusive when we're talking about these things? Yeah. So for healthcare providers, I think about how we need to make sure that we talk about intersex and trans people when we're talking about genetic testing. I think about prenatal genetic testing that looks at sex chromosomes.

And when we're talking about it, we should mention that, you know, this test does not help determine whether a child might have variations in sex characteristics or be intersex. Also, it doesn't tell us if someone is transgender or not to help debunk some of these really commonly held myths about genetics relationship to sex. I think it just involves acknowledging the existence of trans and intersex people as a first step.

And as just humans in society, I think we should all start with curiosity, not certainty. We need to listen to how people describe themselves. We need to use their names and their pronouns and know that we don't have to understand someone's experience in order to respect them. We also need to be aware of what assumptions we're making, like not assuming someone's gender based on their appearance or their voice. And again, as we kind of talked about earlier, language evolves.

And so being open to continuous learning, and that's a part of being inclusive. Because inclusivity isn't really about being perfect. I think a lot of people are scared to talk about trans issues or intersex issues because they're scared that they'll fumble. But inclusivity is about showing care and acknowledging the richness of human diversity. When we center both empathy and science together, we can create space where everyone is seen, respected, and safe.

And again, none of us are going to be perfect here. We can thank people for correcting us. We can apologize. But again, it's all about continuous learning and empathy. Because I think, yes, this is about science. Science shows us that transgender people exist, intersex people exist. But it's also about just being respectful and empathetic humans.

At the end of these policies are real people who are just trying to play sports and build community, kids who are trying to play soccer or, you know, be on a sports team or just live their lives and not have to face othering or abuse or neglect or discrimination. Yeah, I mean, I think it's just being a basic human, right? And realizing that you don't have to necessarily live someone else's lived experience, but having sort of that grace.

And then, like you said, that humility to then say, I don't know everything. And I do think some people get scared of trying because they're worried they're going to use a word wrong or say something incorrect. And then I've heard kind of two extremes. And then they're going to worry and kind of beat themselves up over it. But then other folks are like, and then I'm going to get canceled, right? Canceled. Because I said something wrong and I didn't realize it.

And what I find is that, like you said, if it comes from a place of true empathy, connection, seeking to understand that people can learn, get better, do better, and people are willing to work on that if they can sense that you're coming from that place of understanding. do. Absolutely. People can tell when you're trying and people can tell when you're really not trying.

And so if you like have done your homework, you know, have some understanding of what it means to be trans or intersex, not making people explain that to you, do some homework on the back, but then are genuinely trying. If you fumble, if you use a wrong name or pronoun, say, oh, thank you for correcting me and just move on. You know, I think people are really open to that receptive and see, see the care that you put into trying.

And so, you know, I think people are worried about cancel culture, but again, it's all about basic empathy. And I think the.

You have to try because otherwise, right, there's what else do we have left? Yeah. And especially right now, as the political climate is so toxic for transgender and intersex people, like people are really valuing seeing allies and seeing allies being vocal and present. Even if it's not perfect, it's better than not speaking at all. Because if we're seeing harm happen and not saying anything, even if we say something and it's a little fumbly, saying something is more important.

I think that's a very good point. Right. And I did want to drive. Kind of dive a little bit deeper into the sports because, you know, I know that's been a big thing with the ban. I think, you know, it came up. I got quite a few questions about it.

I feel like every time there's, especially during the Olympics, right, when somebody undergoes some of those testing and they find out that maybe somebody has androgen insensitivity and people are up in arms like, you know, because I don't think they ever knew that these are conditions or things that happen. So tell me a little bit about what's going on in the sports area when we talk about gender and sex.

Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about trans athletes and the wave of sports bans across schools and colleges and professional competitions. So on the surface, these bans are often, again, framed as protecting fairness in women's sports. But when you dive a little deeper, it becomes clear that these laws are more about fear and misinformation and control. What's happening is that, first of all, science does not support these bans.

The argument usually goes that people assigned male at birth are usually going to be faster or stronger or more athletic than those assigned female. And so trans women, by that kind of logic, would always have an unfair advantage in women's sports. But then again, as is kind of the theme of this episode, that's an oversimplification. And in many cases, it's just not true. Athletic performance is influenced by many factors like genetics and training

and nutrition and access to resources and body composition. And yes, hormones. You know, trans women who undergo hormone therapy typically experience significant changes like a reduction in muscle mass or strength or speed or endurance. And there are many governing sports bodies like the International Olympic Committee or the NCAA, at least historically, to develop hormone-based guidelines to allow for more meaningful inclusion of trans athletes.

But even beyond the hormone debate, the key truth is that sports are already full of biological variation. Some athletes are naturally taller, some have higher lung capacity, some have longer limbs or faster reaction times, and we celebrate these differences until a trans person is involved. And then suddenly, natural variation becomes a problem. And second, it's important to understand that these bans aren't based on a flood

of real-life examples. They're based on a few isolated cases, often exaggerated by the media or sometimes even completely misrepresented. And the reality is that trans athletes are a small minority and are not dominating sports. In fact, they face increased barriers like hostility and harassment and threats and unequal treatment. So if it's not about science or competitive advantage. What's driving the advance? It's politics.

These laws are part of a broader push to marginalize transgender people, especially trans youth, by questioning their identities and restricting their participation in public life. You know, sports is this symbolic battlefield, but people harmed by these policies, again, are very real. Kids who just want to play soccer with their friends. Teens who find joy and confidence and belonging on a team. Adults who are training for a future in sports only to be told their existence

is a threat to fairness. And so let's also be honest about something else. A lot of these bans are just also misogynistic. They rely on stereotypes that, again, women are too weak or fragile to compete. And they invite gender policing, where girls and women who don't look feminine enough are questioned, excluded, or harassed, which, again, hurts all women. So it's not about how we protect fairness in sports. Honestly, if we actually cared about fairness, we'd be investing in girls' athletics.

We'd be addressing income inequality or coaching disparities or a lack of access in underserved communities. We'd be fighting for equal pay and better coverage of women's sports, not targeting a small group of already marginalized athletes. So, again, we need to stop building policies on fear and recognize that sports aren't just about winning. They're about teamwork and growth and belonging and joy. And banning trans athletes doesn't protect anyone. It just sends a very cruel

message that some people are too different to belong. And we know better than that. And thank you for saying that because i think that that that sums it up and honestly i'm going to have to probably memorize some of this for when i get these types of questions because i'm always trying to convey the science but i'm also trying to convey that again just be a good person like just have that that that compassion have that grace for folks that are not necessarily presenting the same way you are.

Absolutely. People like to think about the what ifs, like these very small instances of things that could happen to distract from the larger picture, which is just letting people. Live lives that they not only have rights, right?

Like right now we're in a space that people's rights are actively threatened and targeted, but we want to get a place where we can experience joy in our genders, you know, where trans joy can exist, where people can celebrate and live authentically and, you know, teach each other and learn from each other, not just, you know, exist, right? And we're not there yet. And we're not even close to being there, unfortunately.

No, I think that that that also talks about like, you know, the threat to existence, like you have to have that, okay, know that you're supported, you're safe to exist, then be able to have that to progress to experiencing life, having joy, getting to know other folks and having that community connection, but we can't have that type of connection or that type of community, unless we know that we're like physically and psychologically safe first. And that's, we're still not there yet.

Absolutely. And I think, you know, as Pride Month is upcoming, and I'm sure this episode will be released in June, often people are talking about like love is love and how they support LGBT people. And if you're supporting LGBT people, you need to be actively standing up against some of these harmful policies and legislation. It's not just about celebrating love. It is, and it's also, we need to, you know, resist.

Pride was built on resistance and we need to continue to resist as, you know, all of this discriminatory policy and discrimination in society is omnipresent.

And I would say, do you have any thoughts or recommendations for what people can do to be able to actively resist, to make, especially those of us that are cisgender or heterosexual that kind of are fitting the binary, but may have some leverage that we can use to make our voices heard? Absolutely. And I think some people think that advocacy has to be on a maiden stage where you're talking nationally, where you're fighting the man.

And yes, I mean, that is one form of advocacy and that can be done. But I think on a day-to-day level, when you're talking about gender, as Caitlin said in the other episode, making sure you're also talking about transgender people, where do they come in? Are we introducing ourselves with our pronouns? Are we showing allyship? Are we thinking about in our research, how are we inclusive of sex and gender diversity? How are we writing up about sex and gender diversity?

If we're giving a talk or talking to students or something like that, are we thinking about how different, you know, as a genetic counselor, like how different medical procedures might be different for trans or intersex folks? Are we thinking about trauma people experience? Are we just, you know, showing up with rainbow pins or something like that? I think it all makes a difference in anything we do in our day that has to do with sex or gender?

Are we thinking about where are our gender-neutral bathrooms that people can go to the bathroom? And do we know where to point people to? Or, you know, if we have a trans friend and we're a cis person, can we go to the bathroom with them and, you know, help them feel more comfortable to be able to be in that space where they might experience harassment? So again, just making sure we're actively thinking about it.

It's not just about buying rainbow flags or pins, but it's thinking about why in our daily life, what small changes can we do to show that we care? Can we think about our local resources that exist for LGBT folks, getting familiar with our local LGBT organizations and thinking about how we can support them too? Thank you. I think that that's very helpful to think about that too. Like you said, any peace helps.

And I think people think about it in terms of just related to politics, but really it's an everyday type of action that can be taken. Yeah. And I think, you know, if you're an ally, if you're seeing an LGBT person or in this conversation, specifically a trans or intersex person experiencing something like not relying on them to have to speak up about it, but also speaking up yourself when you know it's wrong.

I think I'm as a queer person, I think about times that often I will have to speak up about something and people on the back end will be like, oh, that was so messed up. And it's like, well, I wish you said something in that moment. So I didn't have to. And so I think when we see injustice or see people speaking in ways that are discriminatory or just ignorant or naive, that allies all have a role in speaking up. And we should.

And that shows true allyship. I know we've covered quite a bit, and I appreciate you taking the time and, like I said, giving extremely thoughtful and insightful responses. If people walk away from the episode today and they take only one thing with them, what is it that you hope they remember?

Yeah, I hope that people remember that just nothing is clear cut in biology and people's lives and experience. And I think when we try to oversimplify people's experience, that's when harm can happen. So just being really open to learning from each other, with each other, about people's own lived experiences and how they think about and conceptualize their gender and their lives is really important. So being open to understanding, open to being wrong, and just open to learning more.

Well, thank you so much, Kim. I really appreciate your time today. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. For more information about this episode visit allaccessdna.podbean.com where you can also stream all episodes of the show this link is also in the show notes for easy access, any inquiries on the podcast can be sent to allaccessdna at gmail.com check. Music.

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