Fear of Going Broke - Again: with Ron Starr + Dr. Brad Klontz

he was an incredible real estate agent. And so growing up, you know, him receiving awards and being so well known for doing it. Um, that obviously also came with being very fortunate to have massive birthday parties and Christmas is and and all these amazing things. Because in two thousand eight, when the market crashed, my father, you know, did his absolute best, and I think did an incredible job at

staying afloat and not letting it affect our family. And a lot of people had a lot of really really major setbacks, and um and we're super affected by the market crash in two thousand and eight, including our family, And so that kind of led long story short to when we moved to Los Angeles, for my for my

music career. We all lived in a one bedroom apartment and budgeting was a massive thing, and there were you know, as soon as I started making money, I started directly giving that money straight back to help support my family because I knew the sacrifices that my family made, there

was no money amount that could ever repay that. So I was just going to continuously give back and give back and give back until I turned eighteen, and I realized that the money that I had made until that point had kind of taken a pause, which I'll know I can say that term now having lived on a

few more years. But once the money took a pause and I realized that just because you've made money, you know, it doesn't mean you will continue to make that same amount of money at that same rate, I in essence kind of became broke again, like I can't like as an adult, an eighteen year old kid, you know, having already signed a publishing deal, had already gone on tours,

having already you know, worked with different brands. And this was all before I guess to paint the picture, This was all before my YouTube channel and my social media was really really popping off we're talking about like I had twenty thousand followers instead of two million followers on Instagram. So even the money that I had made was not substantial,

but whatever it was, it was now gone. And so I think for those that year and a half, those two years where money was real, real tight, it sucked a lot. And I think we can all agree that when you do not have money, like the type of not having money, like I was looking at my bank account and getting meals paid for by friends and sleeping on couches, and every time I would buy food, it was making sure I had enough for it. And again

that's not where the fear came from. The fear started once I started making money again, I guess is to now kind of jump forward that I started loving where I was going or where I was so much so that I created a massive fear of ever going back to that point. Uh. And I think that that's impacted my life in ways that I don't even recognize. You know, when I go to purchase something, every single time, I always make sure, Okay, is this can I purchase this? Can I afford this? Is this going to be the

thing that sets me back? Being broke is less of the fear. The fear is more of like having to go back. There's this lyric from from a John Bellian song that I've I don't think I've related to a lyric more, and that lyric is I spent four thousand on the Martin mcflies, which are very expensive Nike shoe and then the next line is, but I'm so petrified of going broke. And it's kind of this back and

forth of relate to that line. So much so because I was literally on eBay just now trying to outbid for a Christian Dior cross body bag that fortunately I got outbid for, because if I would have gotten it, I immediately would have been like, can I afford this? Is this okay? Is this bad? Um? So literally that fear has hit me even to today. But that got me thinking, how common is this fear of being broke? Where does this fear come from? And once you recognize

that you have it, how can you conquer that fear? Yeo, it's up. It's alex Iono and welcome back to my podcast. Let's get into it where we really talk about everything under the sun, and today we're talking about the fear of going brow So I'm very very happy. I have two amazing guests. One is a very very long time friend. I trust him with my life. His name is Ron Star. He is a financial advisor. We're gonna be with him in just a minute, but he's got some here for us.

One is a brand new friend, and we're going to speak to this brand new friend right now, Dr Brad Klantz. He is a founder of the Financial Psychology Institute and an Associate Professor of Practice in Financial Psychology at Creighton University Hyder College of Business. I can't believe that I read that without messing up or stumbling on my words. He is a managing principle of Your Mental Wealth Advisers, a fellow of the American Psychological Association, and a former

president of the Hawaii Psychological Association as well. He's worked with major organizations like JP, Morgan Chase, and H and R. Block. There's literally two more paragraphs of a bio on this man, but I am going to let him speak for himself. Dr Brad Klants, how are you, sir. I'm doing great. It's a real pleasure to be here with you, meeting

you um and I'm really excited to talk about this topic. Obviously, I hope you're excited to talk about this topic because I feel like I might be the prime candidate to be coming in to speak with you about my fears. Yeah, you know, your story is very compelling, end And a lot of the research we've done has been on what we call money scripts, and these are these beliefs we have about money, and so I'm always curious about the

belief that underlines the fear. And for many people, and you tell me if this fits for you, Alex, but for many people, it's this fear, this belief that there won't be enough money, which leads to this anxiety, the sense of scarcity. Frankly, like the scarcity, it's not entirely a mindset as much as it is an automatic thought that pops in. And Um, what we know about that belief, and we've done a lot of studies on that particular belief pattern is it very often links to some history

of financial trauma. And sometimes this is trauma. Actually, when you started your telling your story about you know your father was doing great with money. Um, things were great. I immediately thought, Okay, so maybe the trauma came from your grandfather or great grandfather. I was already going up the chain, because very often this stuff gets passed down through the family systems. And then you told me about two thousand and eight, and that was a major traumatic

experience for many, many people. And actually studies were done back then, massive trauma across the globe, massive trauma, and the lives of people in the United States this fear of loss. And what's so interesting about trauma is your brain decides that I'm going to do everything in my power to never let that happen again. And and this is that lizard brain that keeps you up at night, that wakes you up, that you know you click a button and oh no, all these second thoughts come and

and flood you. And it's your brain saying, I'm never gonna let this happen again. I'm gonna do whatever it takes to not let this happen again. That's what happens when we get traumatized. Our brain looks for ways to make sure we survive. Okay, so you talk a lot about money disorders, and I have some statistics here. Even UM millennials are the most most likely to be pessimistic of any age group about the future of the economy. UM like you're saying, you've spoken on that traumatic experiences

those disorders. Can you explain a little bit more on what exactly a money disorder is. So money disorder is is sort of an umbrella term we used to describe a self defeating financial behavior, and so there's many many

ways that people defeat themselves. You just mentioned, um, what happens to a lot of people who don't really have the mindset associated with how to manage wealth, and all of a sudden they get a bunch of money and then of course they these terrible stories of UM celebrities and lottery winners who then just blow off through all their money. And essentially what happens is they become so

anxious about having the money. So we all have this financial comfort zone, which is an incredible concept where we're we're pretty okay at that level. So we know it's almost like a culture. We know what people wear, we know what they do, we know what restaurants they go to, um, we know what kind of cars they drive. We feel comfortable and everyone has this layer of comfort. Once you get put outside of that, it creates all sorts of stress. Even if we think that it's going to make us

happier and better. Right, we might actually want to have more money, but what happens is we're thrust into another world. It's almost like being an immigrant to a new country. You don't know the custom, you don't know the culture, you don't know who to ask for help, and it becomes extremely disorienting for many people. Okay, and and and in terms of money disorders? Are there different types of disorders? Do some are there? Over? Are there the opposite of

me where it's like they actually have zero fear? Therefore, how many disorders are we talking about when it comes to money? Yeah, there's there's about about ten of them

that about identified. Um. And so it goes from underspending where somebody who's so anxious about having money and you say, this is something you battle inside of you, like there's two parts of you, one parts like don't spend anything, oh no, um, And it's it's sort of the classic iconic ebone'z er scrooge mentality where you have so much fear about money that you save a bunch of money,

but you never let yourself enjoy it. And we would consider those people orders of money, and what they end up doing is living a life of poverty, you know, denying themselves healthcare, sometimes good experiences and all that because they're so fearful about not having enough. And then you have the average American, of course, who we could say has a money disorder UM, where there were over spenders and undersavers. This is sort of like this chronic thing

we have in the United States. Um. It's the keeping up with the jones is it's and this this goes back to your lizard brain too, where we want to feel like we belong. And we've all had this experience on social media where you're looking and he's like, oh my goodness, look at that car or look at that pool, and all of a sudden we start to feel deprived, um, which makes us want to go get more stuff. And really that's us trying to survive within a tribe and

make sure that we have enough status. UM. So you have people who get addicted to gambling and trading um, as well as compulsive buying disorder all the way, the things like workaholism, where we sacrifice family and health because we're so focused on work. What's your advice for for I feel like so many Americans battle this keeping up with the Jones is I need to be up to date. I need to have the newest iPhone, I need to have the newest technology, the newest clothes, whatever it is,

the hottest brands. But then also these emotions of like liveing like I'm broke, saving for my future, recognizing that right now America has given money away to just kind of patch holes in this boat. You know, how do we balance that for a young American? I think a big part of it is just being aware of what's happening to you inside your head and being aware that

we're extremely vulnerable to this. So it goes back to sort of like think about caveman um days, where we really are very much focused on our status within the tribe. Because if you're not paying attention to where you're stacking up, you're you're gonna end up dying or getting kicked out of the tribe. I mean, it's a matter of life or death for that part of the brain. And so

there's been tons of studies down on this too. Our happiness has much less to do with how much money we actually have and the stuff we actually have, and it's actually entirely based on how we compare ourselves to other people. It's called relative deprivation. And so when we see people who have a bunch of stuff we don't have, it creates a sense of deprivation within us, and then we don't feel like things are right, and then we have more of a consumer mindset, like we want to

get stuff so that we feel better about ourselves. And I think it's really important to just point this out, that this is deeply rooted in the psychology of all of us, because it's really easy to feel ashamed about this and to like, you know, kick yourself because you overspent and then feel really bad about it and beat yourself up. But just understanding that this is a natural impulse we all have and it's something that you have to be conscious of or you're going to just overspend.

And that's what again, when I say the average American has a money disorder, it's the average American tends to be an overspender and not save money for the future. So to save money for the future, why is that so hard? That goes against all of our wiring. Two. Um, that is a brand new concept. And let's go back to that Caveman day. You couldn't like hoard a bunch of stuff. You know, people would be really upset with you. You know, they would see you have all this stuff

and you're not sharing it. And so we have this natural inhibition to save also because we're wired to consume it now. So think about food. Back then, we couldn't save food. So it's eat as much as you can. I mean, this is why we have trouble maintaining our weight. Your your brain is saying, eat as much as you can, as often as you can, and not only that, but the fattiest, most sugary stuff. This is what we need

to do to survive. So it's so interesting is that the survival instincts that we all have that got us to where we are as a species are the exact things that are biting us in the butt right now when it comes to money and food and other things. Well, yeah, I feel like on top of that, like you said, it's like we're doing both. I feel like we're trying to consume and eat and all of that, but then we're also trying to save, and it's just like this

back and forth. At least that's where I am, like I I literally I'm trying to save up so that I can buy the original painting of my album artwork. But then I'm on eBay trying to buy this this Christian Dior cross body bag, and after I lose the auction,

I'm mad about it. And then I then that kind of clarity comes where I'm like, dude, if you would have bought that, you would have been you know that a thousand dollars that it would have cost would now go against this money that you've been trying to save. It's really weird because you said it multiple times that it's most Americans have this money disorder. Why then is it so hard for us to stop making bad decisions? It's it's you know, you described what happened in your brain.

That is exactly what happens. So essentially, our amygdala, which is our emotional part of the brain, it gets all excited or it gets all fearful about either wanting something, wanting to run with the herd, or afraid of scarcity that's coming. And when we become emotionally charged like that, we become rationally challenged. And literally what happens is the part of your brain, the prefront of cortex that's involved in like thinking this through, like what are the consequences,

delaying gratification. That part gets shut off when we're really excited or scared or happier. Man is shut off completely. And then what happens is when you calm down, it comes back online. And that's when you're like, on, oh my goodness, I can't believe I did it, or I'm so glad I didn't do that. Well, I think we've clearly identified the problem with my with my fear of being broke. So then, honestly, I'm feeling like I'm not

alone this. I feel like, you know, the more that we've talked, the more I'm like, Okay, cool, maybe this isn't like a weird, irrational fear. Uh So, let's let's transition now into what we can do. What what's your biggest advice for the listener slash me in a like a fake mustache costume, trying to act like I'm not me to to kind of you know, maybe combat the fear. I don't know if there's ever getting over the fear. So what advice would you give to the listener or

myself to combat these fears? Oh? I mean, the situation is hopeless, you know, Okay, You're right, Never gonna totally fix this. And it's sort of like you think I talked about trauma. So like if you ever, you know, stuck your hand in a hole and got bitten by a snake, you're probably not gonna want to ever stick your hand in some sort of dark spot that you

can't see what's in there ever again. Um. And it's it's called one trial learning and it's super super bad, and it's like, I'm never gonna let this happen again. So just understanding that that's kind of what's happened to your brain is it's looking at like how can I protect myself? So when I say the situation is hopeless,

it's not. But just understand that that voice will probably always be popping up into your head and it might actually take a generation or two frankly to sort of like level that out, because that fear is actually trying to tell you something pretty important and unfortunately for many people, if we weren't saving for a crisis and weren't diversified and didn't have emergency funds, you know, you're taking it really hard in this recent pandemic and losing your job

and that kind of thing. Um, So you can use that as an experience of like, Okay, I'm gonna make sure I'm not going to be that vulnerable again in the future. And so essentially it's you have that voice, it's going to pop up into your head, but you need to honor that voice. And that voice says, I'm I'm I'm afraid there won't be enough money, so you need to take action to make sure that that's not

the case. There's actual things that people do that are very different than things that people do in lower working class, middle class, which is where I'm from. It's a totally different world in terms of taking action, but it's all entirely accessible to everybody right now. Um, that's that's another myth. It's like, oh, you can't really get into and do those sorts of things. No, you absolutely can, but you have to learn how to do it. So I think

it's honoring that fear. It's taking actionable steps to make sure that you're taking care of yourself as well as safe for the future. And that's ultimately what we want to do, is we want to do both. But just to understand that fear will pop back up in your head and you just gotta talk it down and calm it down. I do have one question, because you also said something else that I love, which was passing on

this fear to your children. Being a son of somebody who I think experienced that fear, therefore I saw the fear happen, and then it kind of passed on to me. What advice would you have for somebody who is going to be a parent or is a parent, so that they can best not pass that fear on. Yeah, that's such an important question because when I said generations, I mean these fears get passed down for generations. And what's so interesting is people living right now have no clue

what the story was. Quite often all they know is they have this intense fear about not having enough, and and turns out it traces back to three generations ago when people were in abject poverty and everyone's incredibly scared

of every going back there again. And so it's it's actually sort of energy that's being put out to not just teaching, not just saying oh no, it's it's watching what parents are doing, picking up on their fears around money, or their fights around money, or the arguments that they hear.

And so the best thing you can do for for kids in terms of not passing this down is getting your own heads straight around it and and being comfortable within your own relationship with money, because ultimately that's really what's going to matter. It's not really gonna matter what you say. I mean, what you say is secondary to how you're feeling and the relationship you're basically modeling for kids.

Global financial institutions like the International Monetary Fund have been warning that COVID nineteen could trigger a massive global economic slowdown, comparable only to the Great Depression. You kind of touched on this a little bit, But what is your advice for those there's there's a there's a big lack of money and and lots of jobs are being lost and a lot of things are being halted during a time

like this. What's your advice for the listener out there that's going through a very very harsh reality right now, man, Alex that that is such an important thing to consider. And you know, I like the metaphor that we're all in this rocky ocean. We're all in this storm together, but we are in very different boats. You know, some

people are in a big yacht writing it out. It's a little bit bumpy other people are really are having to bail constantly just to stay afloat, and there's a big threat and so the threat is very real, the pain is very real. And I say all this before I tell you what I think we should all do. But there's a mindset that is so critically important. And they've done a bunch of research on this in terms of trauma. So people been through the worst possible things

that you can ever experience in life. Many of those people on the other side of it are stronger, they're happier, they have better connections with the people they love, they have a better spiritual connection. It's called post traumatic growth. I think everyone should get it. UM. It's it's fabulous. And one of the ways you do that those you have to think about your thinking. And so this mantra, there's a mantra I have that I say to myself ten times a day. I I encourage other people to

say it too, and it's this, where's the opportunity? Guess what kids aren't in school? UM? You know sometimes I feel like, quote, I'm stuck at home with the kids. UM. And hopefully they won't listen to this, UM, But you know, where's the opportunity in that, and I'll tell you I am taking advantage of the opportunity. So I can tell you this right now. I'm a better father and i've ever been. In the last few months, I'm a better

husband than I've ever been. I don't know if my wife will verify that, but I've been putting more effort. I've been putting more effort into my relationship with her. Like here we are. You know, we could look at this like we could fight with each other about this because there's tons of stuff to fight over and be stressed about. Or we can face this together and create a narrative. It's like, hey, look baby, you know what. Look how strong we are. We're able to get through

this together. You know. And I know people who have lost their jobs, who who finally are spending time putting that side hustle together, taking online courses. Actually before this call, I was taking an online course. I'm like, I got a little bit extra time. I want to learn more. So where is the opportunity? I think is one of the best mindsets to have. Mm I love that. And you guys heard it here first. If you didn't listen, go back and listen to the two and a half

minute intro that I gave on this man. Dr Klanz is the guy that you should listen to when it comes to getting your mind right for where the world is at right now. Dr. Can I just call you Brad? Do I have to or do I have to call you? Is that okay? I'm sorry, I got my mom calls me Dr Klans but you can call me well, Brad. Thank you so much your insight not only into my life, but into the concept of being afraid of being broke and and that fear. Um, I'm definitely gonna keep a

lot of that. We're gonna take a quick break. When we come back. I'm gonna be speaking to one of my very very long time friends who was very well aware of my fear of being broke. We'll be right back, all right, Welcome back. We are talking about my fear of being broke. I don't know how my heart radio got me to be just so open about all of the things I'm afraid of. But we're here, so we're

having a great time. We just had an amazing conversation with Brad Klantz, Doctor Brad Klantz um, which was awesome. And now I'm going to talk to one of my really, really good friends. If there's anybody on earth that can understand or at least speak on behalf of my fear of being broke, it is one of my very very good friends who is right here on the podcast. I've known him for eight years, nine years, Um you were fifty, jeez, Louise. Um. We met through my We met through my manager and

just immediately clicked. He has been there for me when I'm I'm talking about when I was the brokest of broke. He's been there for me. Uh and and through the years, he's always had great advice for me. Um also works in the finance world, and uh and, and he's just an all around amazing dude. So I'm happy to have him here on my podcast. Ladies and gentlemen, Ron Star, Ron, how are you? I'm all right? Thanks for having me, Alex.

This is fun. I I was gonna have a you know, a two paragraph written up intro on you, but I figured where friends, so I was just gonna say he's got a week jumper and can only go right. Ladies and gentlemen, Ron Star, how are you are you doing all right? I'm doing all right? You know I'm doing a lot of hand holding and counseling during this time of COVID then I have been in the past with

respect to friends and with respect to clients. A lot of what Dr Klan said is absolutely on the money in terms of what I see with my friends, with with my business every day, where people have these fears and unfortunately they seem to be hardwired to do the exact opposite of what you're supposed to do. One of the great things is, you know, everyone says for investing very simple, you buy low and you sell high. You are, for some reason driven instinctually to do the exact opposite.

When the stock market starts to crash, which means prices are starting to go down, they're no longer high, what does everyone want to do. They want to sell. They want to get out as quickly as they possibly can. And when things are at the bottom or is Warren Buffett used to say, when there's blood in the street and it's a time to invest, everyone's too afraid to do it because of what they've just experienced with the crash below. So it's it's almost a cruel joke, which

is you know what you're supposed to do. Yet, being interrrational human, you've almost always are wired to do the opposite,

and you have to really think yourself through something. And the best way, at least that I've been able to do that is to educate myself as much as possible about finances, about money, about everything along those lines, and learn budgeting, um, so that I can at least feel like I have a some semblance of control over what's going on and be when I know where I stand on something or I can understand something, it's a lot less frightening than when you're just sitting there and you're panicked,

and you get that hot flesh and you sweat and you don't know what to do and you and you really can't take any action. Oh man, well, I've definitely called you. I feel like I've been in a in a hot you know, flush sweat and and stressing out about different things multiple of times throughout the years. I'm very, very lucky that I have a super insightful friend that I can call on all the time. But this is

actually your job. So I want to ask you, just for the listeners who don't know you, what exactly do you do for a living on the East Coast I referred to my business is referred to as a multi family office. On the West Coast referred to as a

business manager. And what we essentially do is help people plan for the future with respect of finances, get them set up, teach them with respect to investments, goals, how to save when they can, spend when they shouldn't, and counselor is too strong a word, but be there to advise them if they've got something large or small coming up, if someone wants to buy a house, if someone wants to buy a car, if someone wants to buy a watch, and talking them through it. And you know, all we

can do is advise. We can't tell someone what they what they have to do with their money, or what they must not do with their money. We can try to get them to listen to us. And the longer we speak with them, and the more logically we speak

with the more successful we are. And I find just the passage of time between when someone sees something that they want or something that they want to do and you kind of cool off a little bit, it's much easier to think more rationally about something and what the true cost of something is. I also like to scare people because part of what I do is tax um and tax compliance. So one of the one of the things I like to do is say, all right, you're

getting paid a hundred thousand dollars. How much money do you have? And they'll say, well, I have a hundred thousand dollars, And I'll say, no, you don't have a hundred thousand dollars, even if you don't have any expenses. You have fifty because Uncle Sam and where I live New York State or you are California, are going to take a very nice chunk of that money from you. So people are in the mindset of thinking I just

made a hundred thousand dollars. I'm trying to get them into the mindset of thinking, no, you just netted fifty thousand dollars. How are we going to work? You're spending around it so that you are still saving for a nest egg, but you're not living in a hovel. Which was another one of my favorite stories. There was a woman who worked at the I R. S many many years ago, who made no more than thirty thou dollars a year. She died with a three million dollar state,

but she lived in a hovel and bought nothing. So she died, but you can't really say that she lived. So there has to be some kind of a balance. Otherwise you're not going to be happy either way. You're either going to be incredibly anxious because of my god, I'm going broke I have no money, or you're going to be I don't get to have any fun because I've got everything here and I'm too anxious to go

out there and do anything. This is actually the perfect time for me to explain maybe one of the most impactful conversations, um, that you and I had, which it wasn't even a conversation. I'm going to turn back the clock. I was fifteen years old. I probably maybe met you

two or three times before this. I was at what in the music industry is called a writer's retreat, and Um, the person who put the retreat together invited you to come and speak about spending wisely, especially as a musician where money is not guaranteed at and so you spoke

about it, and you actually referenced Kevin Hart. Stand up, UM kind of series of jokes where the moral of Kevin Hart's story is stay in your lane, stay in your financial lane, and talks about how when he first started making money, he was hanging out with athletes who made way more money than him, and he was trying to keep up and ended up spending way too much money.

But I do actually wanted you to touch on that because you have been mentioning this before, this balance of how do you find your financial lane that you're supposed to stay and how do you figure out You know, I've called you multiple times with this exact thing, saying, Okay, hey, I just got a check that says this much, and I really want to buy this. Can I do this? And then sometimes you've said yes. Most of the time you said no, and sometimes I've listened. Most of the

time I have it. But that is just the reality of life. So how do you find your financial lane? I'm trying to figure out how do I beat my fear of going broke? And and also in my mind, I'm saying, well, if I find out how much I'm supposed to spend, then even if the fear comes, I can know that I'm still in that window of what I'm supposed to spend. So that being said, how do you find your financial lane? Well, there are two different approaches that I generally take with my friends and with

my clients, UM, and it depends on their personality. There's one which is you just basically set forth a discipline or you're where you have to make assumptions. Assumptions are almost always wrong, but you still have to make them because you need some kind of a tool. So you'll say, all right, if you want to retire, and I know you're only twenty four, but you still think about retirement at this time, UM, during this, during this crisis, more

than more than most probably UM. But you say, okay, if you want to have a certain living style, you want to be at a certain level, how much money are you going to need for that? And what you do is take those assumptions and work into a little model where you're saying, okay, to assume this is how much money you're making, this is how much you're gonna be paying in tax, how much are you going to have to save to put away? Making an assumption on how much your money is going to earn, and what

the rate of inflation is going to be. Now Again, like I said, assumptions are always going to be wrong, probably within a week, especially without how fast everything is moving, right, now, but it still gives you some kind of an idea and some kind of a guide, and that guide itself

gives you some kind of security. So if you're saying, Okay, I'm making fifty dollars this year, and I want to put away enough, you know, so that I can continue to live as if I'm making fifty dollars a year, we would say, of every dollar you earn, you're gonna put x percent away for savings, period, so that you'll know what you have for discretionary income, and then you can do the math about whether or not you can buy something and if you're gonna buy something. Now, some

people put together budgets. In my experience, I've never seen anyone actually stick to a budget or stick to the categories. Um, but you can do something like that, but it's more along lines of pacing yourself with respect to what you're saving for. And if there's something that big that you want, if it's a vacation or you know, a fancy role X watch, whatever whatever floats your boat, then you have to make choices. And that's how you make the choice.

You're saying, Okay, this is how much money I have, how do I allocate this out, and you're doing it each time. You're making a choice on spending because you're looking at something. Okay, if I get that, that leaves me with X dollars left. What you know, can I get by on that? And how how can I divate that up among everything else I need to buy? So they're they're they're very similar in terms of where they get you. They're just different mindsets. Where one is you

don't have to think about it at all. It's like, Okay, I'm putting this money away from my retirement. I'm not going to touch it. And the other thing I do to help people try to find their lane is, like I said before, I try to scare them. During the

retreat that you were at. One of the other things I do is I bring out a list of all of these incredibly famous celebrities and athletes, and then I go forward and say, this is how many times each one of these has gone bankrupt, and most of them it's not just once, most of them at several times. So no matter how much you earn, it's not necessarily

the question. What I found is everyone has the capacity to outspend what they earn no matter what um whether it's making bad bets, bad investments, or just buying things that they don't really need that immediately start to lose their value. Um, I'm not a car guy. People love to buy cars. The minute you drive your car, the

value of that car depreciates immensely. Or if you're buying something at an auction or from a dealer, you're buying it at the price that you can get it at, but you're not buying at the price that you can sell it to someone else. For Allen Iverson made thirty million dollars from contracts, you probably made another hundred million dollars from endorsements. And he blew through it because he was buying cars, because he was buying houses, because he

was buying all these other things there. So, if you want to buy something for an experience, make sure you enjoy the experience. If you want to buy something because you love and it gives you pleasure to do that. But if you want to buy something with the idea that you can always just sell it, that's just a bad strategy that usually gets people into a lot of trouble.

Especially in our country. The odds are always stacked against you, and they make it so much easier for you to buy something and to spend money than to save money. And unfortunately, there are people, really smart people left Dr Klantz, who are on the other side of the equation where he's saying, look, you want sugary, you want sweet, that's

why we eat, and that's that's a problem. Well, that's why they have the candy and the chips right by the register as you're checking out from the supermarket, because these people know what the weaknesses are and as a result of that, they take advantage of that. You know, credit cards with pictures on them, shiny fancy rewards, do this, do that. Again, the odds are stacked against you. People are trying to get you to spend as much as you possibly can. You're wired to spend and for that

instant gratification rather than saving later. The best thing you can do is kind of you take a breath, you think something through, you try not to act impulsively, and the logic can sometimes bring you down. And all of these tools together, the budgeting, the automatic savings, all of these things, that's kind of how you you're able to find your financial lane and try to get some comfort.

But Brad was saying, is true, which is yeah, you can have someone who earns ten twenty fifty million dollars a year and works all the time, has three kids and never sees them. Now is that a success financially? That's a success. But how do you define success? If you define success with happiness, then happiness is an individual and personal goal or test that you need to figure

out for yourself. So if if you think owning a yacht is going to make you happy, I'm going to tell you you're probably wrong, But I can't tell you percent wrong. But I will tell you that if you have good friends and you have good times with people, that's going to make you happy. And that's generally not something you can do. You can have your friends have on your yacht, which will make you happy, but it's not the yacht, it's the friends that are with you.

Some people don't even have a friend who's just smart about I'm lucky that I have two friends here now that are that that are so well educated about, you know, finance and the concept behind being afraid of going broken and spending all of your money. What's your advice for somebody who has neither of those? You need to be careful about it. But there are actually quite a few good books out there that touch on these things and

give good advice. Not the books that say invest like this and in six weeks you'll be able to retire. Stay away from those, but the ones. There was one that I read fairly recently, which was stupid mistakes smart people make with their money, And when you read it, a lot of its common sense. But it's common sense. That common sense is probably the biggest misnomer in the

world that tends to be anything but common. Seeing it in a book means a you're not alone and be enough people are interested in the subject that someone wrote a book and a cup published and if you're careful and you get the right ones and you take those lessons to heart, that that's the best place you can learn. So be careful because the appearance of wealth doesn't always reflect the actual wealth, and the appearance of wealth or

success usually comes before the actual monetary success. I mean, you see that in the music industry, probably more than anywhere else where. You're you suddenly have a viral hit on YouTube and everyone says, my god, you must be making so much money, and it's like, well, considering the music industry is geared to pay me as slowly as possible and to try to make sure that everyone gets a little piece of my money before it actually comes

to me. No, I'm not set yet. That part of the reason why I like the books is you can kind of do research on an author and see where they're coming from, what they've done, what their background is. I'm not going to mention a specific book called The Art of the Deal, which I would really tell you to avoid it cost um, but there there are there. There are a lot of good things out there that are not that hard to read, that are not that

technical and are actually interesting. Or maybe they're interesting to me because I'm weird, but they're they're very interesting. I mean, I think they're interesting as long as if they're saving money and they're and they're helping fight these fears, then that I think they're in a good place. But Ron, thank you so much more than anything. I'm just I like shouting people out, even if it wasn't going to

be on the podcast. Thank you for being my friend, and thank you for being such a good friend in the times. Um, we're gonna be right back and we're gonna be talking with both Brad and Ron, we kind of have spoiled the ending that they're we're never gonna beat this fear. It's going to be with us forever. But we're going to talk about ways that we can best combat it. We'll be right back. All right, we are back. We have been talking about the fear of

going broke. In the first segment, I spoke with Brad and he kind of talked to me about how to not be so afraid. And then I talked to one of my really really good friend, Ron, who actually uses the fear as a way to help his clients as a business manager, you know, not go overboard and spend overboard. As he referenced so many professional athletes and actors and very very wealthy human beings who have filed for bankruptcy multiple times and kind of found themselves right back where

they feared they would ever start. So before we get into talking about how we can potentially combat the fear of being broke, I have a segment on my show that I ask every single guest this one question, and that one question is what have you been doing this week to improve your own life? I'll go first. While you guys think I've been baking and um ron. You know, because I send you weird This is gonna sound weird, but I send you shirtless selfies pretty often to show

you the progress in my fitness journey. Brad, if you'd like to, you can give me your phone number. I'll send you that. Uh. I've been on a fitness journey, and you'd think that baking is something that would kind of go against it, but I've realized that to adhere better to my fitness goals, I need to have like a little bit of treat. I started baking way more like I'm baking muffins, were baking cookies. I'm baking. Um.

We did a berry pie last week. And what I do every day is I have a little bit in my calorie budget to have that muffin so that I feel like I'm getting a good treat. Um. That's what I've been doing this week. Specifically, before that, I was, you know, it's working out. It was starting a garden. It was buying a tool set so that I could build a shelf in my room. So there's a world of different opportunities. Brad. You actually kind of touched on it a little bit when we were talking about find

the opportunity. But do you have something that you feel like you've been doing this week that's improving your life. Yeah, actually I alluded to it earlier. So my son is seven, and um, I came home from work the other yesterday and he had a bunch of our stuff out on the front porch and he had set up a little store and he's trying to sell all my stuff to the neighbors. And it hit me that, first of all, I almost came to tears right, I'm a financial psychologist.

My son is interested in money. I mean, it's a dream come true. And then I thought, you know what, like it's a new world, and so he wants to start a little business and he's seven, So I'm going to help him start a business, and how do you do that in the new world? So I did this today. I spent about three hours researching various businesses on how to make money online. And I'm going to start something for him. So that's that's what I've been doing. I

love that. That's awesome. That might be the first one that ever like, that might be the first thing that a guest has said that they've been doing that doesn't just involve like them. I feel like everything is very self serving, but as a father, not much as self serving anymore when you become a parent. So way to go. I like that, Ron anything. Um, can I say two things?

One's really short, yeah, okay. The short one is I've been trying to cut myself some slack and be a little bit more compassionate with myself because I find when I speak with my son and I'm trying to teach him compassion, especially in this day and age, I find that I'm preaching I'm not necessarily practicing with my sube what you preach, you know. And something that Brad said really struck a nerve, which is it doesn't really matter as much what you say to your children as much

as what you're showing them. Um. When when my parents got divorced, my mother was constantly afraid of going broke, and as a result of that, I had that fear and I constantly talked myself out of that fear. But it came from her. I know it came from I still love her anyway, I still send her Mother's day guards, but it came from her. The other thing that I've been doing is whenever I'm afraid of something or unsure

of something, I try to learn more about it. So I'm sure like half of America, and I've learned a great deal more about pandemics, epidemics, viruses. I've been reading a couple of books. I read a book that was written two or three years ago about the pandemic possibility, and reading the book about the pandemic possibility was like watching someone write a journal as it's happening. Now, That's how scary it was that that he was able to tell the future that that well, and that nobody paid

attention to it. So I just try to make myself as aware of possible of things. And the more I learned, the more I realized I know so little. So I just try to dig my way out of my ignorance and I use some of the extra time I have now doing that. I like that. That's nice. We got some good answers today. I don't know if I don't know if this episode is about going broke or just being a great dad, but both of you guys are

giving me some good lessons right now. So we have been talking about the fear of going broke, and in our segment, Brad, you kind of mentioned that there is no cure for this fear, that this fear is kind of going to be an ever present thing, and all you can really do is just every day consistently try and combat it. And Ron, you even mentioned that you use that same kind of fear of these are the people who have gone bad and done it wrong. And you think that you make all of this money, it's

not gonna last forever. You can always overspend it. I want to ask both of you, guys, if you can't beat this fear, what advice do you give your clients or your patients that at least give them a day to day help, any anything, any tips? Like I remember reading this quote on Instagram by Jay Z that says, if you can't buy it twice, you can't afford it. And I tried doing that, but then what I would do is I just started buying buying two subway sandwiches because I can now afford two of them. So what

advice do do you both have? Rat aalogy start? Yeah, So, first of all, Ron Star, I mean, the guy is a star. I'm actually really jealous of his name, isn't it special? But but I loved everything he said. One of the things he said, is going to lead me to my suggestion. And he said that, and this is this is incredible actually that he does this. But when he sees something he's afraid of, he moves towards it, and he tries to learn as much as he can

about it. And he has actually just described the most effective treatment for anxiety and fear that we have in the field of psychology. And so, first of all, fabulous, And I'll just share with you how how I think it's this. This is a really helpful exercise. Okay, I call it the worst case scenario exercise, And so essentially you just run down the absolute waste worst case scenario. So,

for example, let's say I'm afraid of losing my job. Okay, well, well, first of all, that would be terrible, right, But what would happen next? Well, then I'll I mean, I guess I'd lose my house. Okay, that would be awful. But what would happen next? Um? Well, you know, for many people, then it's like, well, I guess I'd have to move in with my mom or my sister or a relative or something. Um which, by the way, it would be just hugely devastating to my ego. But I gotta tell you,

my kids would actually kind of love it. I don't. I don't care who we moved in with. It's a party all the time, exactly. It would be a party all the time for them. And the problem is around our anxiety is our brain hasn't It's an on off switch. It's like everything's fine or oh no, I'm going to die. Okay, that's the way it works. And you know, she ANSWS are that this worst case scenario for you is not going to kill you. If you're in the United States,

chances are you're not going to die from financial problems. However, your financial stress and anxiety around money, it can kill you. And there's been a lot of studies done on this. It's a huge mortality risk factor, like up there with diabetes, heart disease, cancer, that's how much that stress can impact us. And so just getting a handle on getting some perspective on you know, how much do I really need to worry about it? Would I be okay if I lost

it all? Like, certainly, don't try to lose it all and make sure you're taking care of yourself. But at the end of the day, you know, um, the average millionaire has had three major financial catastrophes in their life three the average non millionaire has had slightly less than one. And so the other way to look at this is like, hey, you know what, bankruptcy, it's in vogue right now, like all the cool kids are doing it um and so

so don't so don't let a failure like kill you. Essentially, it's it's just not that big a deal and you can rise from the ashes, and most people who are really successful have done exactly that. Mm hmm. Ron, do you have anything to add to that in terms of tips on on on how you can kind of combat this, because I have something that I actually think you told me that I want to finish with, but I want

to let you give some tips first. I think Brad really put it very well, which is the key word being perspective, which is, what's the absolute worst case scenario, because you know, Okay, we have a pandemic, everyone's out of work and they're gonna be riots in the streets. That one's just gonna cause worry because there's not really a lot you can do about that, and apparently it can happen. But aside from that is really get the perspective on it. You know, my wife, she'll call me

in a panic over something. She'd be like, oh no, literally, this morning, my mother got into a little fender bender someone else and there's this and just I'm like, okay, so how much was the damage? She's like, Oh, it's probably gonna be few hundred dollars. I'm like, okay, if the damage is going to be a few hundred dollars and we have that money, please don't waste another another minute worrying about it, because it can be easily solved.

So instead of worrying about problems, kind of think about what a possible solution will be. Because again, when you're in that area of limbo or uncertainty, it's like the worst, most anxious place for me personally to be. So doing something about it at least gives you, whether it's a false sense of control or a real sense of control,

makes you feel better. I think what you both said, a lot of the times we create the monsters that scare us the most, right, And so I think what I'm dissecting from both of your answers is that, you know, Brad, you said, if you do have a fear, don't don't build it up to be bigger than it is. Go actually go go into it, see what it is. See you know, Chase after that, and Ron, like you said, sometimes it's it's not about how much money you actually have.

It's about you creating a monster out of all of the money that you don't have. Which leads me to my tip, which is something I'm pretty sure you told me. I know, Mickey told me. Who's shout outs to Mickey's he's my I don't know if I don't even know how to explain Mickey, but he I live with him, and he's kind of like my dad, but like he's also like fourth in line to be my dad. Um,

so shout outs to Mickey. But one of his biggest things when I talk with him about money is well, I'll just go and make some more if I need if I need more, I'll go and make some more. And instead of the mindset of like I'm gonna lose it all, I'm gonna lose it all, is that there is a world of opportunity, just like Brad's doing with his son. You just create opportunity. You look for this opportunity.

And so I think that's my biggest takeaway for it. Uh, That's something that I've worked on a lot recently in terms of, well, what if I run out and I and I can't pay rent anymore? Then my my mantra that I've tried to go after is well, I will figure out a way to go and make some more money. And if it means I have to downsize a bit, or I have to figure something else out, or go and move back in with my parents, so be it.

But I think, like you guys have both said, you create these monsters that are scarier than the reality is. So those are those are Those are kind of my takeaways because we are where we are right now, and the world is very tight, and money's very tight, and like you said, we're all kind of on different ships in this rocky sea at the moment, Brad. A lot of people have gotten stimulus checks, a little bit less, a little bit more, some people are getting paid unemployment.

What's your advice for for utilizing that money. So I would start by saying that understand that, again, you're wired to do everything wrong with that bonus check or stimulus money. So just understanding this. By the way, there's been tons of studies done in this we treat that type of money very differently than we do a salary. If you're blessed enough to have one, a lot of us will

put that towards our goals and all this. And then we get this money coming over here from a stimulus check or something, and then we just blow it on crap that we later regret we do. So this is how we're wired. We're wired to do that with money that's unexpected. So just understanding it that is going to be your tendency. And then it comes down to your individual circumstances. Like normally I would say, hey, take that extra bonus, payoff debt if you happen to have it,

or use it as an investment um. In this current environment, it might even be better though, to just keep that in a savings account. If you and have an emergency count, it's an opportunity to build one up just in case you hit hard times. Amazing Ron, I think it really does depend on what your individual circumstances are. There were people out there because of the vast number of unemployment numbers, people needed that money to buy food, to pay a

little bit of rent. So in those instances, yes, go go and spend that for the other people that were still able to make ends meet in something like this, I would suggest keeping it liquid and keeping it handy. So if things continue along this trend and get better, great, you have an extra savings and things take a turn for the worse if we get hit with a second wave, then you've got more of a safety net to to

ease your fears. Yeah. I mean, I guess it just depends on how much you know what what situation you're in. But I do agree that I have friends who are like yo, the stimulus check just came in, like what's toped? Like what do we all get in? Where are we all watching? And so I don't know what the answer is, but I know what the answer isn't And it's that. So if you're listening to this, um you know, make the best out of what you have and and just

really do your best. But Ron Brad, thank you guys so much for hopping on and and talking me through my own fear, which I'm now realizing is a fear in a lot of people's hearts and minds. Thank you guys so much. I hope you're being safe and you guys are having a good time and being good dad's as you guys have mentioned, you are both being and thank you so much for listening. This is the moment

that we kind of we do some shameless promo. So, Brad, if you want to promote anything your social media, your company's uh, your address so that I can come and figure out more reasons why I'm afraid of being broke, give us some shout outs. You're gonna text me or you said you would tell Yeah, I'll text you those titles, pictures or something. Okay. So so all right, so you're not going to believe this by looking at me, but I'm kind of into TikTok. Oh. I'm actually doing a

lot of TikTok videos. Yes, yes, all all related to financial education. I'm gonna partnership program with TikTok right now. So that's what I would encourage people to check me out, check me out on TikTok And what is your TikTok need it's uh Dr Brad plants, Dr Brad Klans doing the renegade. Guys doing the Renegade challenge is having a great time. I love that. Make sure you guys go and check out. I'm going to check out Dr klans

is TikTok. Right after we finished recording this, Ron, you want to get a good old shout out to t b G Big Dog. We always feel that if your if your company is mentioned in the news or somewhere, that's usually bad. Um, so we try to stay out of that. I am going to pitch number one that, um, one of my really good friends is doing some really exciting creative stuff on the music side of things, and that friend is the person's hosting this podcast. So yeah,

oh gosh. I was like, are you really going to come on my podcast and promote somebody else? That's not cool? And then I realized that you're making a joke about me, and now I feel bad for judging you. Well, thank you, Ron, I appreciate you. I also want to ask Brad whether or not he's written a book or if he's planning on it, because if he is, all I'm going to read it and be I'm going to recommend it. That's very nice of you. So um, a bit of a geek at my sixth one is coming out this shit.

But mind over Money is probably the one that for most consumers, but I also write them for financial planners. Too, so ron for you, facilitating financial health would be the one. All right, So we're starting a doctor Klan's book club if you guys want to join in. We're starting with Mind over Money and then we're gonna go into the financial planning books. Both of you. Thank you so much. You know you can always find me at alex ion O A I O n oh. Best part about having

a unique class name. I love you. I hopefully will see you on the next episode and I'll see you guys later. We really want you to get the help you need, so if you need help, please seek independent advice from a competent healthcare or mental health professional. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast author or into visuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.

This podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, counseling, or therapy. Listening to the podcast does not establish doctor patient relationship with hosts or guests of alex Iona Let's Get Into It or I Heartmedia. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on this podcast, wol if that's a doozy