Everything's Not Fine: BLM + a Movement in Music

a pandemic. Uh. It felt like the world could use some of the messages that I had wanted to share in my music, and I thought it was really kind of like the perfect time to drop the album. And then I saw it. I I saw the video of of George Floyd being murdered at the hands of police. I mean, I feel like, as an American, you see violence all the time. It's it's literally glamorized. It's it's sexy to see violence. We watch World Star fights, we watch you know, rated our movies, we watch war movies.

We watch everything we can. But this one felt disgusting. This one felt hatred fueled. You know, it felt like I I was watching something that I shouldn't have to see as a human being, and it just brought forth feelings that I've always felt, of supporting somebody standing up to bullies, not letting somebody put another person down, not letting anybody think that they're more valuable than somebody else, And it just it lit this fire under me. I

shut everything down. I told my team, we're not releasing the album. I stopped posting on social media, as if the world wasn't about to enter or wasn't in this disgusting place. And it's interesting because we were in a pandemic. People are dying every single day. But for some reason, watching this video uncovered a truth to me and really gave it this this blinding light. And I knew that me being silent wouldn't be an option this time around.

So I shut everything down and uh, and I immediately started researching how I can help, you know, signing petitions, donating, calling mayor's offices and and and police departments in and reaching out for justice for UM for Brianna Taylor as her murder was was brought forth, and Elijah McClain and signing just so many petitions, And it was disgusting how many petitions there were, because it meant that this many

murders have been just completely swept under the rug. And I fought as hard as I could every single day, and we started seeing progress. We started seeing arrests, we started seeing cases reopened, we started seeing um gatherings, and and and and so much love. And the hatred from the other people also rose up. The hatred from racist the hatred from white supremacists also rose up, but they kept getting fought back by so much love that we

had been producing together. I also started prepping to release the album again because I felt like, Okay, now that we've now that we've been fighting for quite a bit, I do still feel like this album I can fit in today's time. And that's when I came across one of our guests, and I created an amazing friendship out of that. But we bonded so well in our unified goal to reach true racial equality and racial justice and justice for the lives that have been taken for years,

hundreds of years. As I started finding out through podcasts like sixteen nineteen, as I started listening to more anecdotes from the Jim Crow era, and I started reading books by tnahsy Coats and and educating myself to really be the best ally that I can be uh, And now I'm here to discuss Black Lives Matter and the movement in music. And what I'm thinking is where do we go from here? YEO? What's up? This is alex Iono. This is my podcast. It's called Let's get into it.

And to help me with that, I have again, like I said, one of my very very good friends. Now like it literally went from zero to a hundred and then one song. My brother d Wilson. He's a singer, songwriter, worship leader from Chicago. He's written songs including the number one gospel single not Lucky I'm Moved by Jonathan McReynolds. He wrote the song that still tears me apart to

this day. It's called Rose Pedals with his band Common Hymnal and Uh and of course wrote the Medicine, which is one of the songs on my album The Gospel at D How are you, brother? I'm great, bro, I'm great man. Good to be here. Thanks for having me on. I'm happy you're here. And we both now get to make another new friend that we can release another new song with. It might not be as it might not be, it might not be as clean or reverence, but it's

definitely gonna be fine. I could guarantee that he is a rapper, producer and the co host of the Waiting on Reparations podcast and Athens, Georgia. His friends call him Mac, but we call him Dope Knife. Dope Knife, How are you, bro? Hey? What's going on? Alice? How you doing? Thank you for having me? I'm so happy that you're here and and honestly, to me, I think, UM, being an ally means knowing

when to shut up and listen. And that's really kind of what I wanted to do on this podcast is talk about music, talk about art and UH and really learn from both of you guys how I can continue being the best ally that I can be in anybody who's listening who wants to be the best ally they can be to this movement to fighting for racial justice and fighting for racially quality, UH can can do that

as well. So before we get into all of that, I have a question that I ask all of my guests, what have you been doing this week to better your life? And and I'll start so that you guys got some time to think. Um, I've been house hunting, So I don't know if this is like a new thing. But the house that I was living in right now is getting so old, and I got to find a new house to live in, and it is I guess it's for the better. I don't know. It's not a really

good answer. Usually I have a really good answer. But my whole life has been the virtual tour and finding a house. It's like my two biggest goals. So that's what I've been doing. What you got from me, Mac, I I freestyle a lot, and um it's it's actually one of my more notable things that I do in

my live show. And it's usually the more that I've been making music that's kind of become The main practice that I get at freestyling is when I'm performing when I'm on tours, like incorporating the freestyling into my set. Before I started doing that, when I was like in high school and stuff, I used to like have myself go through like a regimented practice, like I practice freestyle wrapping every day and practice and practice until I could

get good at it. And it's just been such a long time since I've been in a situation where I wasn't performing regularly, so I was I was kind of like man maybe I should take the time out to do like practice for a couple of hours for the first time in years. For the first seven years, I've practiced freestyling like I was in high school and it was it's pretty refreshing. Can you explain what practicing freestyle like?

How do you practice freestyling? Well? For me, um, like, I'll put on YouTube videos or TV and just out loud rap what I'm seeing as it comes up, and that way you can you can mess up. You can still because okay, you have to understand how I incorporate freestyling into my live set where I have this song called who Got the Props? Where I'll just tell people to pull stuff out of their pockets and stuff and we'll make a song on the spot out all the

stuff that people and stuff like that. So that game in particular, like just watching TV and everything that you see visually just wrapping it, wrapping in the shower. So I practiced freestyling and I feel like I'm better today than I was yesterday. Here we go. That's what that's what matter is most. What do you got from me? What you've been doing this week to make to make

your life a little better? Well, so there's this big um conference every year uh that really couldn't happen in persons years that did on videos called the Global Leadership Summit. And it's, um, it's this this sort of megachurch in Chicago invites leaders from based literally all across, from all over the world and from like sort of all walks of life, the business world, of the church world, social media world, like all of it. Like it's all it's

almost like a you name it of leadership. Um. And so so for literally uh two days, you just hear about all sorts of uh leadership principles. UM. You know, not everybody that comes is you know, is a Christian or or even like you know, practices of faith at all. Um, you know, not even all the speakers or even but it's just this is an amazing intersection of people just exchanging leadership ideas and it's and then you get so

much good just um quality talks. UM. I want to stay preaching because I live in the church, bro, But UM, you get you get such a good quality talk, such good quality principles. So literally since yesterday eight am until I came here to do this, UM, I've been in that in that summit. Oh man, Yeah, she's pretty it's pretty intense that you definitely you definitely win for the like I mean freestyling, like that's like that's major, major major.

But you're like you're talking about going to like you're at the u N. You're at the u N of the leadership, except like, yeah, way more efficient. Damn. Well listen, guys, we we got we got three topics we're gonna be talking about. First up, D and I are going to go one on one and we're gonna talk through the Medicine, which is the song that we we sing together on my album and on your upcoming album. Am I allowed to talk about your upcoming album? Um? Uh? Nobody told me? Yeah,

what's the streets saying no? Yeah, absolutely no, But nobody's told me no. So this is the debut we're talking about it right now. I'd rather ask for forgiveness and permission. So yeah, there you go. Uh And then uh, and then Mac, you and I are going to go one on one talking about politics and hip hop. And then lastly, the three of us are going to have like an all in, you know, go at it to talk about the Black Lives Matter movement in music Um, so, d

let's get straight into it. Mac. We'll talk with you in a bit, all right, d Well, listen, we're friends now, you have no choice. You're my friend, and and I just want to I think if you watch my documentary that I put out of the whole album, you'll see at the very end there's the snippet that talks about

the album. But I kind of wanted to just do like a twenty minute in depth discussion about how we became friends, how the song came about, Um, what the song means to you now compared to when you first wrote it. We're gonna talk about all that. So first, let's get straight into it. Um, I heard this song my dad like literally, this is like it's usually when your dad shows you something on social media, it's not

cool historically actually really bad. My my dad posted a story that was you singing the first ever version of the medicine. It was just you live sitting at the keyboard, and uh, and I was like in tears, a full on was it was? It was? This was maybe? Days? Was it was like days after George Floyd was murdered? Yeah, yeah, I had to be Um, maybe it wasn't it certainly was not a week. Yeah, it might have been like

four or five days. And uh, and I just I just remember hearing it and just weeping, just feeling it, like I mean, because the thing that the thing about the song to me was that I had heard so much, you know, and and not that it's the wrong thing, but after George Floyd's murder, it was all hatred in return, you know. It was it was fun twelve, It was

a cab. It was all of those things which I'm not saying are the wrong reaction, but as somebody who always tries to lead with love, I searched for where the love was. I searched for where we're turning to love instead of just urnning directly back into violence and feeding into the cycle of war. And the song that you that you wrote was really one of the first places in which I felt like we were at a growing like it was. It was, it was written from

a growing place. It wasn't just it wasn't just looting and fire and destruction, which is the deserving reaction to something like George Floyd's murder. But hearing hearing your song brought a whole new side of it to me, and so I've I've heard it many times and I love listening to it. But how did you write this song? Tell me about the creation of the medicine? Yeah, um, so yeah, just like you said, you know, it's a

couple of days after um, George Floyd was murdered. Um. I've had a very interesting sort of journey when it

comes to justice issues. Um, you know, like being sort of raised in uh you know, maybe middle class, um, you know, like sort of society, like a lot of diverse f It's like I've never really encountered a lot of racism, um, even growing up, not really until I became like sort of maybe a teena like once I started driving on my own, and it's always driving with young black men where you run into it, you know, And so like I remember being like so like I had to really sort of laid awaken and in my

twenties around Traylon Martin's murder um and watching so many of the people that I knew as family turned into monsters. And so for me in a lot of ways, like writing songs like Rose Pedals, writing songs like the Medicine, it's sort of me sort of find a lot finally being able to articulate all the things that have been turning into me, and I, like you, I was the

same way. I was like, man, you know, like it was so hard to see because it happened in Chicago to like and actually happened, a lot of looting happened like just five minutes or so from where we live. And at the same time being so heartbroken that you know, there are so on the people that are that are angry, that are hurt, that are under pressure, um, that are victims, that just that that feel a real thing and can't express it articulate a different way. I was really I

was marked by two things. I was. I saw this one video of this young man and I don't know where he was, was a young um, young black kid basically saying like, this is what you get. This is what you get when you take a man away from his family, This is what you get when you impose all these ills on this community and don't give us any way out or any resources. We don't want to destroy anything, We don't want to burn anything. But how else are we supposed to do this? If if everything

that we want to change isn't happening. And I cried watching he couldn't have been older than sixteen. And I cried just watching this kid. You know, I'm thirty three, was watching this kid. He was so profound in what in in thought of saying, this is what you get, like this is what happens. You know. Ice Cube was around the same age when he wrote after Police. It's like he was sixteen being able to process information. So I'm driving home. I listened to one of my favorite pastors,

name is Eric Mason and Philly. He's a black pastor UM and one day on Twitter. One day on and I don't even know why, it's like he's a boomer too. I guess he used. He still used a periscope, which is weird. But one day he was um. He was one day he was on periscope just like letting it loose man, and I'm screaming. I'm screaming at my phone like yes. And so that's where I first heard him say something like something to the effect of like there's like this is a sickness, like there's a sickness and

a sickness. And I'm driving home, like just I just left the chiropractor and I'm driving home. All the windows are open and I just I like that that word like sickness just like hit me in the middle of my chest, and I probably in the car, probably at least wrote the very first line, like there's a sickness here that threatens to divide us, and we're all afraid

to say its name out loud. Always trying to find a way to to express things, or to look at things, or to address things that is differently than the way everybody else is sort of addressing and getting talking about it. And um, I still could because I don't throw people away.

I still have a lot of people that fall on the side of you know, that cop was just doing his job, or George Floyd was this, this and that, like they're still very much in my world and now and then I haven't, But now that I'm more awake, I have a lot more people on the on the on the side of saying. But whatever whatever it was that y'all thought he did, that was unwarranted. He did not deserve that. He like, you don't kill a man in the street for a twenty like, where are we like?

What do we like? What kind of world are we living in? Where a twenty effake twenty if it even was that gets you killed in the street, you know. So I'm hearing all these things and I'm just I'm just so grieved and heartbroken because as a as a Christian, it's tough watching the church miss it so freaking often. Like that's what happened that, That's part of what happened with Rose Pedals too. Was just like guys were missing it.

We're missing it like this is a human life, like this is this is blood, this is breath, these are all the things that we say we're supposed to care about, but all of a sudden we have all these all these excuses and all these reasons not too Um. So I came home, Um, my daughter and my wife are about the head to the store, and I was like, great,

y'all leave. I have to get to the piano, like when I find those moments, you know, as a songwriter, like when you have those moments of inspiration, you have to hold onto them as long as you can because once they're gone, they're gone. Right, And so, um, I got I probably got back home at like five thirty or six. I went right to my my keyboard, um, and I just immediately started like hammering out these world and it was weird how quickly they came and how

good they were. Um. And then literally as as soon as soon as I felt like the song was done being written, I started doing takes on a video and like, um, I just started like going, you know, like playing it, playing it. I would mess up, start everything over again, like and once I finally got one that I mean, honestly, that was the first one that I was able to even sing all the way through between messing up and crying and writing, and it's like and I just put

it up. Man. It was just like, um, you know, I don't have a huge following, I'm not a very influential person. Like I just put it up as a way too. I don't even know why, Like I don't know what possessed me to do it. It was more just like I have to put this up, Like I just have to. I have to put this out into

the world like this. It's it's unprotected, it's all the wrong things, but like this, this is I have to just say this right now, that this like this like we are and more importantly, you know, to those to those folks that I and in community with, you know, in the Christian space, we are missing it. Like that's what that second verse was about, you know, Like if I can sing, I can sing the words of ends of men and songs of angels, I can give all

my possession to the poor. But if your love can move them out into my hatred, I missed it, like I missed everything. If if, if all these you know, platitudes that we throw out all the time is not causing me to love my brother, then I am missing the whole thing. Um. And then I just cried, and

I just cried. Then I just cried. I if you listen to this song and you really have that pure hearted you know, drive and understanding of the weight of what's going on in the world right now, it's I think it's absolutely impossible to not cry listening to that song, or not at least feel like you want to. You mentioned the faith aspect of the song, you know, Uh, You're you're obviously a very devout Christian man. I do still absolutely claim Christianity. I still believe in God, I

still believe in higher Power. I'm very monotheistic in mind, as somebody who writes so much gospel music and and and worship music. More than anything I in the gospel. In my album, I have some songs that directly address

my relationship with with God. How difficult is it? Because I do definitely find it difficult um looking at Christian religions right now, and like you said, are just missing it so hard that we believe in a god that's that that that gave us scriptures that say to love your brother and love and and to be christ Like, and to to accept everybody and love everybody, and and

leave no stone unturned when it comes to love. And yet we're here and among the hatred for the l g B t Q plus community, among the hatred for for anybody that doesn't believe in what the amount of wars that that have been started off of religion, And now we're here today as somebody who writes actively addressing faith, addressing worship. How difficult has it been in the wake

of all of this. It doesn't change that the leaders of churches, that that pastors that churchgoers are still saying yeah, but blue lives matter, or saying but all lives matter, or trying to fight these these fight something that's so simple as yes, a man was murdered and that's not okay. Yeah, yeah, you know it's been. It's been crazy difficult, I think, Um, you know, I think one one of the ways that you know, we as a church all like missing probably

consistently is like we want to pick and choose. Um. And so for me, the difficult part actually hasn't been writing, because I've always written songs that have have pushed up against those boundaries and barriers. I've always done that. Um. Now, they haven't always been popular, which is why I'm not rich or famous. But but it's uh, but it hasn't been. I think the more difficult thing for me now is how much Sunday mornings have become in a journey into

escapism for Western American Christians. Um, in that we can you know, as long as we can get the church on Sunday and have that hour, you know, the world be damned. Like it's like nothing. We don't address anything in here. We don't talk about any of that stuff in here. Um we had you know, we don't. We don't like none of that stuff matters. I just you know, I got my church. We're gonna sing our favorite songs, We're gonna do these things, and then we can go

back to the real world. My my driving the last uh two or three years has been no, we have to bring that stuff here to Sunday. Um. So the most trouble I've gotten into, and I've gotten into trouble, the most trouble I've gotten into it is just it's just UM not allowing my church at least, you know, the folks that I lead and served, not allowing gus to come into church and be able to escape the real world. No if when when um, when there was

I think it was the same. I think didn't like the Charlottesville thing happened in the Dallas thing happened in the same weekend or like in the same couple of days where it's like they had a riot, they had like pro two protests in Charlotsville class and then I think that same weekend there was a peaceful protests in Dallas and then somebody started shooting there. And I think for you're talking about a few years ago, you're not. No,

it's not recently this last summer. It was last summer because I remember and I remember in our meetings going, hey, y'all, this thing just happened. We have to say something to our church about this, because because everybody's talking about it on Facebook. Everybody's arguing about it on Facebook. Everybody's being very hateful. We need to be the ones to come in and say this is wrong. Well, you know what I mean, like to address it. So that Sunday I

addressed it. I talked about it, we pray like, we cried, we wet we I had people like yo sitting here for five minutes, and think about how you interact with with with people that don't look like you, think like you, believe like you. You might be doing it way wrong. There's a parable that Jesus tells a New Testament about the good Samaritan, about the man that was beaten on the side of the road. All the church folks passed him by, everybody that said, oh we love God, we

believe in God, we hold all these things. A little lah saw this man that was beaten, bruce, robbed, destroyed, disenfranchise, and provished to press on the side of the road and pass him by. And the Jesus says, a despised Samaritan. Not that he was a bad person, not that he was sinful, none of these things, just that church folks hated him. And it was the one person that all the church people hated that ended up being the most kind and compassionate and showing God's heart to a person

that was disenfranchised. So for me, it's like the hardest thing has been helping the people that I served in the context and then the community that I've been placed in understand that these just can't be good things that we talk about that we don't live about. If we're not living them, then we just stopped talking about them. If we start, if we're not living them, we just

stopped singing about them. Um, if we're not living them, then we should stop trying to influence everybody to vote, you know, a certain way when if you don't care for me, if you don't care about all life, you can't be pro life. If you don't care about a life that is brown, that is gay, that is you name it. If you don't care about that life equally as much as you care about just a life just being born, then there's no way you could be pro life.

Because God cares about human life. God cares about human blood, God cares about human breath, and if we don't, we can't say we care about the same things God cares about. Absolutely, bro I couldn't agree more. I want to talk about something that actually you told me d which is uh. It was a quote when I was afraid because you are one of the first churchgoers, um and devout you know, worship leaders and musicians, who writes church music. So I

was definitely nervous to show you my album. That was definitely uh, my album was very irreverent is the word I like to use. You know. I have a song called old a f I have. You know, I talk about hooking up with girls, I talk about smoking weed, I talked about all of this stuff. Um. I was definitely nervous to show you it, and you actually came back with one of my favorite quotes that I think is what I want to end with on this on this faith talk, which is when you were known. That's

the other quote you told me. When you follow God, you flow in life. But God would this is the quote hold on. The quote is God would rather me be real than right. And when you told me that, it made me have all the confidence in the world that it doesn't matter if if if the music can't be played during a church service. It's it's that I'm telling my truth and I'm saying my piece as I see it, and I'm saying it with the words that I need to say it with, and so I think

I absolutely agree with you. There's there's so much to be said about the oncept of like Sunday. You know, a Sunday Christian who is who on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday will post about is the devil angel on Sunday? Get out of here exactly and then come come into church and pretend that that it's the you know, the walls are sealed off from from the rest of the world.

So my last question that I have for you before we take a quick break is about the next steps um as a musician, um as a worship leader, as somebody who writes worship music and and you know, uh other type other genres of music. What are the next steps that you see for yourself as a musician, and then what are the what are the next steps that you would see for an ally, for somebody who wants to keep this fight up until we really get the

change that we want. Yeah, I would say I would say for me, you know, I'm called to the places that I'm called until God moves me elsewhere. So for the church that I that me and my family are a part of. You know, my my wife was the first, uh, but the first black woman on that staff. This has been a largely upper class, upper middle class white church for the last sixty or fifty years. So there's so much that they just don't know that they don't know.

I would say for allies, um, you know, there's shortly at shortly or shortly in In this whole wake of people waking up to injustices, there were a lot of people that were suddenly asking black folks a lot of questions and sort of like reaching for their closest black associate to like say, well, teach me um. And I'm not sure if that's the way to go. I think the way to go would be a true partnership where

you're not just drilling them for questions. You can have the right answers when the time comes, but they actually get to drill you, um and get to and get to uh sort of um, hold you accountable. And it's not it's more than just help me, Mr black man. It's you know or or give me all the right answers. It's like how can like how can can I hold you?

Kind can I ask you the tough questions. Can I ask you how how have you how have you been trying to I appreciate you reading books and listening to the podcast, like doing all these things, and so many people I think that, oh, I'm gonna learn something, going to grab some black people and answer accent in questions, and I won't be racist at the end of it. No, you need to do You need to study this stuff to see how deeply ingrained it is so for every ally before you just jump out and do the wrong

thing with the right intentions, do the appropriate study. That's absolutely I mean like it made me feel like, uh, it made me feel like, um uh if you were going to church and instead of actually reading the Bible, you just ask people like, hey, so what did Jesus do next? What do Yeah, that's what it feels it and and it's really the information is all there if you want to look it up. There's books on books on books, this podcast. I heard of a cool podcast

with this dope host named Dope Knife. But I really appreciate you, bro, I really appreciate you for coming on here. Um and and I appreciate you for blessing the album. Uh. The album was absolutely made complete with with the addition of the Medicine. And I still don't know. I don't even know the miracle that was at the end of the song. Um D says we need a miracle like

you did for my mother. I don't even know the miracle that that God did for you, mother, But I cry every time I hear that part because I know the passion in which you spoke with So I appreciate you immensely. I'm gonna talk with you in a little bit. We're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, I'll be talking with Mac about politics and hip hop. Alright, we are back. This is let's get into it. I'm Alex Ciono, and we are talking about Black Lives Matter

and music combining together. I just had a beautiful conversation with my friend d Wilson Um, who is featured on my album The Gospel of twenty three and his song The Medicine, which I actually just did. I call it a cover of um and Uh. And we've had a great friendship that's come out of that. So we're just talking about that. And now we are talking about politics and hip hop with somebody who has a bit of knowledge about both UH Dope underground rapper, producer and a

host of the new podcast Waiting on Reparations. His name is Mac, but we call him Dope Knife, or maybe it's Dope Knife, but I call him Mac. I have not figured that out yet. What's up, by the how are you having I thank you for having me, um. But our subject that we're talking about is politics and hip hop, and politics and music have had a history that go way way back together from the Jim Crow era where they use music to actually oppress um black

people too. Nowadays, like you have Pink with Dear Mr President and Kana Laday's UH remake of that that addresses this current president, you have the Dixie Chicks writing songs about this, uh, especially in hip hop. Let's go back to hip hop. What what songs do you identify as like some of your top politically saturated songs that were real like staple pieces. Well, Um, I'm kind of like a you know, third generation hip hopper, So I'm not really like I grew up in the eighties or anything.

I grew up in the nineties and early two thousand's. So even with that, the most resonating hip hop song on a political end would probably be Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Fives The message You don't push me because

close too. But yeah, I mean that that's widely recognized as being probably the first successful, you know, political or social commentary like rap song, So that one always stands out to me, like, whenever I'm writing something that has any sort of like political bent to it, I kind of think about that song and reference that because it's just the way that the I mean, the song is called the Message, but it really doesn't have a preachy vibe to it at all. It really sounds like somebody

just speaking in their truth. I feel like some of the best, some of the best songs I have those like those hidden messages where you're like happening and then all of a sudden you're like, oh shit, I'm I

was just just debunking, you know, this philosophy exactly. I have um a song called Dynasty that's really just a battle rap song, but there's like three or four lines in there that have you know, like one of the lines is, um, I would still love my son if he's gay, but I'll kick him out the house if he wraps whack And for whatever reason, Like people just resonate to that line like a lot, like on that level, Like, man, you know, I never really thought about it like that,

but that's that's like, that's that's you really say something there. I'm like, oh, just absolutely kind of sounded funny. Man, I love that line. What what What do you think is so important about using music as a tool? What makes music such an incredible tool in times like this, with movements like this, well, just as a communications device for people who do want to like spread a message,

who have any sort of musical talent. I think that a musician using their mus to get a point across is probably more powerful than any interview that they're gonna do. You know, like your your listeners are gonna hear your new track, are gonna hear your album before they're gonna hear oh you you really dropped some science in like a three hour interview with BBC or something like that. You know they're going to hear a jewel that you you put it in a in a line or in

a verse. First, No, I mean, I think you're absolutely right. I've I've from however early I can remember, have used music to express myself, to speak my piece or to say whatever I need to say. And so whether it's talking about girls and trying to get a girl to like me. Back to now, like releasing songs like like the cover of these the Medicine where you're talking about some real heavy ship. I think it's just a powerful way.

And I think even like we were talking about before, sometimes it's so catchy that you sing something before you even know what you're singing. You know, sometimes you're singing along and then you're like, oh, wow, that's crazy. I didn't even think about it like that when I was thirteen listening to a Most Deaf and Tilips Black Star album. It's like, you know, you listen to that Third Team and you're taking in stuff and you're like, oh, man, yeah,

that's really deep. But then you get older and you go back and revisit it and it's like, oh they were They were talking about stuff on a level that I was hearing but wasn't necessarily retaining. But it was important that I heard it that earlier, because like, those ideas stuck with me, even if I wasn't aware that those like, you know what I mean, that they were

like giving ideas and stuff like that. Now, of course, life with anything, it can be used for good, it can be used for bad, you know, like people can use music to spread messages that aren't necessarily aren't necessarily constructive to hear over and over and over and over and over and over again. Oh man, I mean, I think it's it's a device that can be used on

both sides. Our current president right now has been mentioned in so many rap songs even before he was the president, and he brags about it as if it's like a powerful thing and and and uses it. We did an episode on that um about a week or two ago, like strictly strictly about hip hop's relationship with Donald Trump president.

But um, we're pretty much going back and talking about why Donald Trump was referenced so much in hip hop before his presidency and kind of what we came to the conclusion because from what we found, Trump has been mentioned over two hundred times in rap songs from like nineteen eighty four to two thousand and fifteen, Like two

hundred and fifty times. I don't know for a fact, but I'm pretty sure that's more than any one living figure has been mentioned, you know, I mean exactly, like, for I mean, you're you're talking like Trump and Tony Montana like men like that much in rap songs, so you know, it's it's it very much kind of seems like hip hop or just kind of looked at Trump as like a symbol of success, you know, in the in this capitalistic dog eat dog sort of society that

we live in the States. They kind of looked at him as that sort of thing. It's just like, hey, I got money like Trump. I mean, I mean the Trump Plaza, Yo, We're getting paper like Trump. I'm the black Trump is all that that sort of thing. And then the switch as soon as he came down that escalator like happens super hard, all of a sudden, f Donald Trump. Yeah, it's literally that all across the board. Let's switch gears really quick, because I do want to

talk about your new podcast, Waiting on Reparations. Reparations. It's a very Reparations is definitely a hot button. And by the way, I should probably define it for anybody who is curious about what reparations are. It isn't the form of actually paying, like like giving the value of the wrongs that you have done back to the person who you did the wrongs too, So reparations is not just like people saying sorry that reparations fail action most of the time by money. That is a way to physically

try and make a situation. Right. That being said, tell us about waiting on reparations, well, waiting on reparations. The podcast um Our podcast is pretty much dedicated to bridging the intersections between hip hop and politics and where those connect, and we kind of used that as a vehicle for both of us. My co host is um the Athens, Georgia, Clark County Commissioner Mariah Parker, who's also dope rapper and

singer herself by the name of Lingua Franca. And you know, we we make music together and we we were always talking politics and stuff. So, for example, last week, we were having a discussion about the police, right, so we started talking about how the cliche of like, oh, the police are the biggest gang in America, which led us to getting in contact with uh m C who does a podcast called Hood Politics and Behind the Police, and we just had a whole discussion about police policing and

their connection to gang culture. And then we listened to a bunch of rap songs that are about police and gangs and then discussed it. So that's so just just extrapolate that with any sort of political topic that you want, and that's kind of the format for our show. So you know, um, if we want to talk about the history of the N word and its relations to hip hop, if we want to talk about, um, the labor movement and its relations to hip hop. It's been a new experience,

the whole podcast thing. And that's I mean, it sounds sick. You know. I was raised in my community was like, let's not talk about politics, Let's let politicians talk about politics, and now knowing that that is a terrible concoction for

for just kind of falling into a blind sheep mindset. Um. I think it's incredible that you're doing something that bridges that gap because I feel like a lot of people want to get into pol ticks but are so intimidated because they feel like, you know, if they're in their twenties and they're just starting to learn about politics when you have like a little baby Obama that's been studying politics since like kindergarten, and they feel like they're just

not equipped for it. And so I'm excited to listen to it if you're listening to this podcast, makes you go and listen to this afterwards. Um, but I would like to I'm very interested because of the name of your podcast, what do reparations look like to you this year? In a lot of people, and especially you know, people on the right, like to use sort of the specter of oh, they want they want you to repay, and they want you to give give them money, you know

what I mean, Like, it's not necessarily about here's some cash. Sorry. You know if that doesn't feel real, you know, that doesn't feel like, hey, it's not realistic, and it's just like stupid, Like that doesn't that doesn't accomplish anything, you know. Um, it's kind of like, uh, it's it's reparations. The you know, repair is part of the name is to like put

right what was wrong, you know. So to me, a realistic look at what reparations would be is if you put government dollars into the black community, you know, I mean into education, into historical black colleges, into black owned businesses, into changing the infrastructure so that some of the things that were done systemically fifty forty years ago that is like still a roadblock in impairing people's like upward movement, mobility,

get you know, getting rid of that stuff. But I mean, all of these things are stuff that we haven't even addressed yet that if they were addressed to the people who are so staunchly, you know, opposed to even the concept of reparations, you can't be against that and then also be against just stopping the factory, you know what I mean. You gotta choose what you can't be like, oh, well, y'all, don't we don't need to pay reparations because everything's fine,

but everything's not fine. But everything's not fine from so many double standards. There's so many double standards going on. Um. But we we chose the name for the show. First of all, we we originally were coming up with the rap group for a rap duo, and we were like, hey, we're Waiting our Reparations. We had like for the story of sort of style like our our music both has a sort of political tint tours. We're like, yeah, Waiting our Reparations would be a dope ass name for that.

And then we got Approach from the podcast and we were like, yo, I think it would be a Domnat from the podcast too, So now it's a great name. It's a great name. UM. Well, I mean, we're here.

And that's why I think the podcast is so UM prevalent right now, is that we're we're here living in this newest wave of civil rights movements of fighting for racially quality and racial justice, UM, dating back to the forties into the sixties with Dr Martin Luther King and and uh in the last let's say, maybe four years, five years, UM, since you know, Black Lives Matter was

really kind of coined as this new civil rights movement. UM. In that last five years, there's also been so much progress that we've made from um, you know, starting the movement of of reforming the police and figuring out a new way to to enforce law here in America. For the next five years, what would you like to see for the Black Lives Matter movement and for the civil rights movement in general? I think that, um, just like the civil rights movement of the past, I think what

this current moment in time is going to need. And I'm not I don't even I feel kind of hesitant to even say what it's going to need or what I think it needs, because for all I know, there's people out there who are doing the work right now, you know what I mean, Like I'm on a podcast when I live in him. So, but I do think that tangible policy change needs to be attached to all of this emotion right now, and if you know, from

my understanding, that seems to be what's going on. But it goes way deeper than reforming the police, you know, And I can kind of already see it happening that the gate keepers, as they were, are kind of looking at this as a reason to do a bunch of ship that no one asked for and that no one really cares about, thinking that that's going to pacify anyone, Like I don't know how like a character from family got to be invoiced by a black person who's going

to stop a cop from shooting me, you know what I mean. So it's like, let's handle that stuff first, like let's handle these deep seated systemic racist issues first, and then I think through that policy change, it will filter into the culture, society. And then it almost feels like if you start with the bigger things, the smaller things are gonna obviously come out as like okay, we can't do that. That's not okay exactly but it's American though, for us to like try to solve problems that way,

you know what I mean. It's like, hey, we have a drug problem. Should we look at the reason why people are doing drugs? No, let's just the rest the people that are doing you know. It's like yeah, right right, it's just like I mean, it's it is like that,

Like you said, it's the American way right now. And I think that the American way needs to change before anything else changes, because if the American way changes and we lead in a certain direction, then most of the things we're trying to fight off will naturally fall apart.

The thing with the thing with like politics is that a lot of cats that are in my like circle, like the hip hop scene, you know, they definitely have strong like political leanings and political ideals, but they kind of turn a nose towards actual electoral politics and stuff like that and kind of think it doesn't matter. All politicians are the same. The game's rigged, and they don't understand how important this stuff is. And it's like it's it's just people. It's just made up of people, and

those people could be us, you know. Now, I'm not an elected politician. I have way too many tracks that would prevent me from like that to anything, but I mean it is. It is important, especially for like young people to know that. It's like, yo, if you want to change the world, you actually can go out and change the world right now. It's you know what I'm saying. Absolutely all right, Well listen, we're gonna take a quick break.

When we come back, we're gonna pick up right where we are, which is music in in in the Black Lives Matter movement and how we can best use our art to to continue making change. We'll be right back, all right, y'all, we are back. This is let's get into it. I'm alex Iono. I got my man mac a k a Dope knife, and my brother d Wilson here, and we're talking about Black Lives Matter movement and uh in the new civil rights movement and how it's affected

and influences music today. All three of us are musicians. All three of us produce and write and speak from our hearts, and especially in a time like this, what's going on in our hearts is turmoil. What's going on in our hearts is fighting for real change, fighting for a better world, and sometimes it really feels like, uh, like it's impossible, and some days it feels like we can. We're on the brink of glory. So we're here talking

about it. We had some great conversations so far, UM, but I wanted to ask some more questions about kind of language. UM. And and language in music is one of our most effective tools. I mean we're talking about I think for the last like five weeks on Spotify's New Music Friday, the the out of the first five songs, you'll have a song that is directly speaking to this civil rights movent, this Black Lives Matter movement. UM, why

is it important do you guys think as musicians? And I kind of talked on this a little bit with you Mac already, But to use that language and how important it is to pay attention to the language not only that we use, but that we listened to as well. When you know better, do better. What's why I say to myself, and that's what I'm say to my daughter now too. Is like once you once you know better, you have you have um, not just an opportunity, but

an obligation to do and say better. There are things I said when I was a middle schooler that I don't say now because I'm thirty three years old and I would sound crazy, right like, um, you know, like and that's that's both socially and that's you know, professionally, Like there's there's things I had to learn how to talk, you know, when I'm in offices versus when I'm talking to my homies, you know what I mean. It's like, so the language like what you fill yourself with, um,

is what you're gonna regarditate. I'm like a hip hop hip hop cat, right, so like I'm on some like elemental hip hop stuff where it's like you know, break dancing, DJ's graffiti, m seeing and what is commonly you know, overlooked element is you know knowledge. You know, knowledge is knowledge yourself, knowledge of of of the world around you is one of those elements. So I try to make sure that I'm always putting in something like that in

my music when I'm making it. Not necessarily in a way to preach, but I just I just try to make sure that all of my music means something to me, you know, And it's not necessarily like a standard that I hold for other musicians to have, Like, oh, musicians have to address what's going on in the world around him.

But I think that if everyone that you talked to is thinking about what's going on in the world right now, and it's like this whole black lives Matter, George Floyd, COVID, quarantine, lockdown, all these things are like the most prevalent things in people's lives when you're talking to them in just actual conversation. I'm not saying I'm trying to hear anybody's music filled

with a bunch of that. But if your music is completely devoid of any sort of reference or mentioned of the world that we're all, you know, the shared human experience that we're all going through, then it's kind of just fluff, you know, And that's that's bad because that has its place too, But it's just it's not where I mean. I think it just carries its weight. It carries its weight, you know, it says I remember, I'm following a bunch of people that I used to and

like that I used to really rock with. When George Floyd is murdered and they're busy promoting their brand new YouTube video and you're just like, there's there's a it's not I'm not saying that you have to go out and and you know, throw a Molotov cocktail at a cop car. Yeah, or even say there's a there's a

middle ground. Even if it's doing you're at least just acknowledging, acknowledging, simple acknowledgement, even with the um you know, the explosion and by root and in Lebanon um the other day, I had tweeted something before I saw it and immediately saw it and took down the tweet because it's like there there's a level of tone deaf that is, it crosses over from not necessarily being political or not wanting to address things that don't bother you or don't that

don't you know, affect you directly. There's a line between that and just being tone deaf to what's going on in the world. And and it comes off as your you know, I like the line, like your privilege is showing, Like that's really what it is when you're when you're posting about life, you know, in the Bahamas while there's there's a civil unrest going Yeah, I think go ahead, Yeah.

I think the shift is happening to in in fan bases where I think folks will start to expect in demand that sort of well roundedness from the people that they follow, you know what I mean, Like yeah, I know, like like life for his little baby, you know, like a little baby the other like a month ago, Like we I love little babies music, you know what I mean.

Like he makes great he makes great music, but he even took time him and the baby to address the world, right And it's like dude, like yeah, thank you know what I mean, Like thanks for that. Like we we want to know that the folks that we're giving our time and attention and our finances to that that they feel like they're part of our world and they at least make the attempt. Like I know, I know a

little babies richer than me. I know, he has security, I know, but but he still understands where he comes from. He still understands that there is a world that he's connected to that he has to address. I think fans, I think if musicians don't start demanding that of themselves, fans are going to start demanding that of the folks

that they're you know, of that their fans are. And particularly with hip hop, I mean there's never been there's never been more of a moment that was made for what for hip hop was birth out of than the moment that we're in right now out so and you know, there's the trust me, there's there's tons of hip hop out there that you're going to find where people are completely aware of the moment that we're living in and they're talking about it in their music and they're they're

making it. They're making it fly, you know what I mean. It's it's not sounding like, it's not sounding like something that that's not, you know. But the thing is a lot of those cats are cats like me that are on the underground and stuff like that, and it's definitely stuff that people can go out and find, but it is very important that those mainstream voices part of my language get what the program, you know what I mean. It's just like it's like you're either sleep or you're not.

You know. That's I loved when when Alex was talking to me when we when we when we talked about your album, when you let me hear it and you and you were you were nervous or trepidacious about you know, calling it the gospel and things like that, and I said, like, listen, inherent in the birth of gospel as some music is slave music. And what I had just learned about two months ago was that in those old Negro like slave songs and Negro spiritual songs, it wasn't just follow the

dream gored like they were. They were giving each other game plans and road maps and secret messages and all

these different things. So and even inherent in gospel music, it's folks dealing with the struggle of their day, right and so like there and so like if you say it's the perfect time for hip hop, which I completely when thousand agree with agree with, I think it's the perfect time for gospel music to that like real music that is that isn't that at the same time addresses um society and our issues, but also is um giving people hope and determination for a better tomorrow. That's gospel

music in its essence. That's hip hop in its essence. Because black folks didn't have nothing else, Like all we could do was make dope music with with our own messages, with our own words, with our own culture, in order to communicate with each other to say, like, you're not crazy, I know what's going on, and YO to like tomorrow is gonna be better or the future is going to be better. It's at the perfect time for those two. From my from my opinion, the two the two greatest

American art forms hip hop and gossap music. I'll fight anybody on this. Well, no, no, I agree with you. And it's like, like I was saying earlier, is you know, recognizing the power of music. Like imagine if that last like two minute thing that you just said was a verse you know what I'm saying, Like like like it would resonate so much more because it's music, and then that's what music was made for, so that we can Yeah, music,

music carries its way absolutely. Uh. There's one last topic that I want to talk about, and it is a very very hot button right now, and it is cultural appropriation. I saw this funny as video when everything went down and it started talking about people were starting to bring up the concept of cultural appropriation and and people aren't fully getting it in terms of music because they're like, well, what about rock and roll? Rock and roll is just us?

And somebody made a video as a producer who put in a video that said me making a beat with no Black music influence, and it was literally had ended up being like playing like random keys on a piano, because I don't think people fully understand how much of

the Black culture is actually fully music. You know, all of my music, everything that I am is Black culture in terms of music, all of the R and B, everybody that I listened to from growing up, listening to Fred Hammond and Lauren Hill and Stevie Wonder and even to its deepest route is Black culture. And now there's a lot of brands, a lot of companies, a lot of artists who are taking fire for and and rightfully so for culturally appropriating and taking it as their own.

Music is difficult because it's it is especially now we're blending everything we're throwing in rock and roll with country and throwing a little bit of hip hop in there, and everybody's dancing around. Where do you guys feel like that line is drawn between appropriation and collaboration in music specifically? Yeah, and music specifically, because I think in fashion, like I mean, we're I think they're in fashion, and in you know, sports teams from from the Washington UH football team is

not what they're called. There's there. I think that there's a lot of movement going on, and as the three of us are you know musicians and quote unquote experts

and music. I'd love to see your guys thoughts, because I think music is a little bit more complicated than calling a team something that's just really offensive musically, And I mean, I definitely can see how people disagree with what I'm gonna say, But musically, I'm personally not prepared two ask of somebody something that I'm personally not doing. So I know, I'm I'm a do sir, and I sample right, especially when I was younger, I used to

sample a lot. So if I'm sitting down with like some old symphony composers stuff and I'm like sampling that into a beat that I'm making. If someone were to come to me and like say, well you sample that composer, can you name other songs that they composed? No, I can't, you know, I can't. I can't. So like, I just I just don't know how quick I am to like ask somebody, oh, well, you're a white kid, and that kind of sounds like a Motown song named another Motown artists.

If they can't, I'm not prepared to be like, oh my god, you're culturally appropriating. What's wrong with you? But supplies have to say, I just the person whatever people are out there that are partaking in a music that isn't of their culture, that is like preaching I invented this and my culture really invented this, Like where giving

anybody credit. Then yeah, obviously that person is wrong. But there's a lot of different things that we don't expect, like each new generation to fully be informed of, you

know what I'm saying. In music, I think I just think music is probably going to be one of those things where it's just right now, it's so what's the word, it's so like like like incestuous and cross pollinating and everybody's doing everybody's doing you know, everyone's dipping their toes and everyone's music, you know in music culture that it's like I think the ideal situation would be ten fifteen

years from now that we're just this genre lists. You know, just this this, this this genrest thing that can just morph into whatever whoever takes it on and whatever culture takes it on and they add their own spin to it. That's where my mind is with music. More than this music belongs to this culture forever about to touch it? Right? Uh? Yeah, I think I think, um, I think app Yeah, I think I think you can sort of unpack it in sort of three different ways. I try to be a

geek about everything. Um, actually don't try to be. I just am sort of a geek about everything. But uh, I think, you know, I think I think you have to. I think in order to save yourself from the you know, appropch from appropriating a culture, especially when it comes to musically, UM, I think you should. I think there should be an appropriate love for the culture, um, a respect for the pioneers,

and an advocacy for the community. Like I think that's where for me anyway, that's where I draw the line. So when I see, you know, an artist that has a clear love for the clear love and appreciation for the culture let's call it hip hop or R and B right like and but I don't see them paying homage to the pioneers, and I don't see them stepping up for the community should that community fall prey to

whatever sort of injustice or whatever. That's when I look at that person differently, you know what I mean, Where I can even say like, yeah, you make you you make the music right or you know you like you uphold the standards musically, but in a in a sense, you are appropriating because you don't pay homage and you don't advocate, right, you know what I mean? And so like little Richard talked about it a couple months ago where he's like, I gave everybody their swag. I gave

Elvis his swag, I gave the Beatles their swag. Like all these people ripped off of me and never brought me up in the conversation. So now we you know, now we all can look like we all now I look a little little richer differently. But before that, you know, I started saw him as like the goofy rock guy, you know what I mean. He's saying trudy, fruity and rudy and all these things, like clearly he was talented.

Now I see him as, oh he was sonning all these dudes, like he was all these dudes dads, and they just never gave him gave him respect for it um And so like for you, you know, like when I you know, I call a little bit of what you're saying about your love for gossap music and things like that, like I see that in you, you know, I see the love for the culture. I see the homage you pay to the pioneers, and I see your

advocacy for the community. So if every so, if anybody were to come for Alex and say Alex is appropriating, I say no, because I see all these things in him that tells me that he's not. You know, that tells me that he that he is actually a part of the community because of the way he treats the art form, the pioneers and the community itself, you know what I mean. So like for me, yeah, like that's that's where the line. That's where the line is for me.

It may not be a perfect line, but I kind of feel like, um, the way we were talking before about how you know, things that happened politically filter into the culture, I kind of feel the same way about music, where it's like, if somebody does have a proper appreciation of the culture that they're protecting in you'll hear it in the music. You know what I'm saying. I just

I don't know. I don't want to mention any names, but there's there's definitely stuff out there where it's like just aesthetically, it's checking off the marks, but there's there's something missing. But it's like act as. I think that the most important thing, like you would like you mentioned MAC is is and you mentioned it as well, The is making sure that you're paying that on is you're playing, you're paying that that respects back. Um. And you know, I'm not, by any means the person to to I'm

not the appropriation judge. I don't. I don't choose what's appropriating and what's not. I just know, uh, you know, for me as myself, I was raised listening to a certain type of music. My parents loved listening to this music. It's what I drew a direct passion towards. And uh.

And I made sure that when I stepped up to the plate, I knew what I was talking about, and I new what's even though you know, as musicians we are supposed to break the rules and we're supposed to bend and and try new things, it's also about respecting what's been done before and not you know, not trying to you know, shoot on what's been done before, or neglect what's been done before. Um. And that's something that I think, at least for me, I try and do.

And I really appreciate your words d um about that art um. But we are actually out of time unfortunately. Um, but this conversation was so special. I know, right like I want, Um, but this conversation meant a lot to me honestly, um D, I always love talking with you. Uh it's it really is amazing to me how our friendship has bloomed in in the matter of months in one song. H and MATC. Hopefully the same goes. I'm excited. I'm really glad I met you guys. Thank you for

having me on. Of course, my last bit of the podcast is called not So Shameless Promo, So I want to give you guys some time to just literally rap whatever you want to wrap and promote whatever you want to promote and plug. So Mac, I'll let you go first, all right. Yeah, Um, I'm Dope Knife. You can find

me dope knife dot com. My Twitter is at Dope Knife, my Instagram is at Dope Underscore Knife, got a couple new EPs out, I've got a YouTube channel and um yeah, I don't want to sound to whatever whatever, but I'm I'm pretty I'm pretty dope. Like I mean, you know, it's it's it's it's definitely lyrical. So it's like if that's if that's the sort of thing that you're into.

I definitely know it's a it's a niche. But if you're into hearing people wrapped very well, then if you if you're interested in good music, then you should probably listen to it. If people wrapping well is your thing, yes, people wrapping well over over pleasant beats. That's it. That's it, all right. D hit us with some not so shameless promo. Oh man, I'm de Wilson. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm so good waiting on reparations. Yeah, I was waiting on the promo. I was waiting on the promo. I just

followed it. I just followed it. Um, I'm a subscriber. Now you got me. I haven't listened with a show yet. No, yeah, d Wilson, UM, don't follow me on Facebook. I'm gonna lead that soon. Um as as anyway, Um sorry, um. Ady Wilson live on Instagram Common him and no Gang Gang at Common him and on Instagram and I have a I have a couple of EPs coming out. Um checking me out on Alex's record. Arsna Medsin also play that record at Thalvan times from the beginning to end,

but to repeat because it's flames. I think that's it. Oh, odds and in podcast that's my podcast, Odds and in podcast with Dan Sharona um love so check that out as well. I love that you guys know you can follow me at alex Iono everywhere. Ai O n oh. It's the best part about having a weird last name. And I'm so grateful for for you listening here. So please, if you have the time, make sure you rate our podcast and subscribe. That is how we grow and uh and we will talk with you very very soon talk

to later Facebook. We really want you to get the help you need, so if you need help, please seek independent advice from a competent healthcare or mental health professional. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of I Heart Media or its employees. This podcast should not be used as

medical advice, mental health advice, counseling, or therapy. Listening to the podcast does not established dr patient relationship with hosts or guests of alex Iono, Let's Get Into It or I Heart Media. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on this podcast, well, if that's a doozy