Dropping Out with Leigh Abramson + Karen Erlichman

raised us as as children. My dad, on the other hand, actually dropped out of high school and helped support his own family, like his parents and his brothers and sisters by working for his father's company and uh and eventually got a g e. D. And became a very successful real estate agent. If you've listened to my other episodes of the podcast, you'll hear more about that story. But I want to focus on the education part because what

happened with me is I always liked learning. I think learning is something that I've always loved, and it's something that I'm very very passionate about. But I loved learning about the things I liked more than the things I didn't like. And my parents very much so picked up on that towards seventh and eighth grade when they realized I was really focusing all of my time on learning about music theory and how to play certain chords and

and structure and songwriting. And I would focus so much time the way that a doctor would focus on medical information, or like a lawyer would focus on studying for the bar. I was studying for the musical bar. I guess and uh.

And halfway through ninth grade, my parents, you know, we had decided to move to Los Angeles and chase my dream of being a musician, and I transitioned from regular classroom traditional school I don't know if that's what it's called, into online school, which was not by any means successful for me. I I'm gonna call my mom out in a good way. She was so good about logging in for me so that my hours were all right. I know, Hey, I'm really sorry pre Mavera online high school. This is

the truth. My parents were so good about helping me be successful, but ultimately I failed a lot of those classes, not because I wasn't testing properly, but because I just

wasn't showing up or doing any of the assignments. So by the time that I actually had stopped going to school, it was a very smooth transition into working full time in the music industry, and my dad kind of embedded in my brain this idea of you can make it happen, you know, mentality, you have to just put in the work, and and seeing him as a firsthand example of that was always very easy for me to look at and be like, oh, yeah, my dad's totally right because he

did it, you know. That was kind of my mindset with everything. And so here I am ninth grade kind of looking for a new way to have a career without having a high school diploma, and then came my way something that's very very special in California called the Chessie. It is basically like the g E D on steroids, but instead of passing and getting like whatever the g e D Certificate is, you actually get like a diploma equivalent certificate. So if I wanted to, I could go

to a university afterwards. And my parents always wanting me to have you know, that education under my belt. They were super supportive of that, and my fifteen to sixteen year old girlfriend, Katie Vincent's mom actually paid for like the books for me to study and like all of that stuff. So shout out Genea Vincent, big love. You

help me get my diploma, shouts Mom and Dad. I feel like I'm winning a Grammy, but I only got like almost diploma, so uh, you know, and then I at least for me, if you're a fan of me, you kind of know where that story goes. I started posting on social media and doing what I love and chasing it relentlessly and not stopping that work, and I found myself to a place where I'm a professional in my field of work if I even want to call it that. I just like making music for fun and

it pays my bills. Like that's where I am. And so I am now almost ten years deep in my profession, with all of the experience that I got to have and being treated as an adult since I was fifteen, and and now feeling like I've I'm very deeply rooted into something that I truly love to do, and I got to focus all that time. But I would be remiss if I didn't say that sometimes I wish I was, you know, getting drunk at prom off of like some

weird mixture of everybody's parents alcohol. Or if I said I didn't get to go to college parties or or spring breaks, or playing high school basketball, all of those things. I do think about those things, and it kind of all of the positives that came out of me dropping out and chasing my dreams. It comes with a lot of pros and it comes with a lot of cons.

I also look back at, you know, a lot of people who ask me that question because I'm open about my history with schooling, and they say, well, should I go to school? Should I not go to school? And I've always said, you know, other people as advice, don't take me as the example. And if you don't necessarily have a plan, and if you don't necessarily know, I've always said you should go to school, you should go

to college. But there's also now so many factors that I never put into my brain, you know, in terms of student loans and and the cost of being of going to school, and the percentage of people who actually do the job that they went to school for, and and a lot of people, especially my friends, you know, they got their communications degree and it didn't do anything for them for their job that they're at now. It's really put it into perspective. So that got me thinking,

is dropping out the right idea? Is not going to college. The right idea is staying in school because your parents want you to a good idea And if it is or it isn't, why is that? No? What's up everybody? It's alex Iona here. This is let's get into it my podcast where we talk about a ton of different topics. Really nothing is off the table at this point, and

we want to talk about something. It's not the sexiest I'm not gonna lie, not the sexiest topic, but it's very very important, especially today we're talking about edgecation and how important it is to go to college and chase your dreams and if those things don't go together, how important it is to make the right decision on which one you want to do. So. I have two very very diverse guests here that have different paths that we

can talk about and have open conversations with. The first being a freelance writer whose work has appeared in numerous publications including The New York Times, The Atlantic, Real Simple More. But She attended Penn Law before working several years in big law and clerking in the Southern District of New York. She's currently toiling away on a brand new novel, You Guessed It it's about a law firm. Her name is Lee McMullen Abramson. Lee, it's very nice to meet you.

I just want to know how are you. I'm good, Thank you so much. It's great to be here. You guys can't see this, but Lee's got on as she She's told me it's her daughters. I really think it's hers, and she's just like a closeted Frozen fanatic. They're Frozen themed headphones. They're the cool things I've ever seen. I'm very happy, and you can be honest here on this podcast. We're open. We're open and honest. The first episode I talked about losing my virginity, so it's like nothing's off

the table. If those are yours, just just be proud about it, you know. I will say that I'm very happy to be wearing them. Okay, I was glad they were available to me and they feel good. I like that. You've got a little bit, you know, a little bit of ownership of those also with me. You guys know, she's one of my closest friends and I asked her pretty much for help on anything. Uh, Karen or like man. She is my wisdom tree. She is my off the

clock therapist as I'm going to call you. It's my new title for you, because I have so many questions for you. Karen Orleckman, how are you? I am COVID good today? Is COVID good? Baby? That's all we can ask for these days. Well, we're talking about education and both of you guys have very very different paths in which you guys chased your ultimate dream or you guys followed you know, the career path that led you to where you are, and we're gonna dive super super deep

into that. First, Lee, you and I are going to talk about Dropouts Handbook because you are very very experienced, as we're gonna learn in helping people find out how to follow their truest self, even if it kind of diverges off of the path that they originally were taking.

And then Karen, you and I are going to talk about what might have been the concept of well, if I had done this, Even for me, I have these thoughts all the time, talking about if I had stayed in school, if I had gone to college for something. And then lastly, we are all going to kick it and talk about how you can tell if the traditional path or a new concept of a path is right for you. We're gonna be cracking into all of that.

But before we get into that, I have a question that I ask all of my guests and uh and it is. It is a very very important question. What have you been doing this week to improve yourself? This week, I have been and this is gonna sound crazy, because all of my recent improvements have been about health. This week, I'm sitting next to a dozen of donuts, and I'm learning how to to fully give myself the freedom and not feel bad about doing things that make me happy.

Right now, it's a it's a Devil's Food cake, chocolate frosted peanut doughnut. Right now, look at this thing. You guys can see it. It's incredible. I'm gonna have a bite of it, while Karen says hers, But mine, I think is important because I've been very, very tough on myself, but I feel very like bad, like I'm hard on myself about it. So this week I've been focusing on the mental aspect of saying, hey, this is okay, you deserve a donut. If you want a donut, you deserve

a doughnut, and I'm gonna eat it. While Karen tells me what hers is my self improvement this week is that I'm actually doing absolutely nothing towards self improvement, and so I'm giving myself a break and just kind of to your point about the donuts, I'm just being where I am right now, mm hmmm mm hmmm, because it's it's a lot of pressure to feel like we need to constantly be improving ourselves because there's underneath that is a little bit of like, I'm not okay as I am, um,

and so this week I'm doing absolutely nothing. Karen, You're on this podcast probably more than anybody else other than myself, and so you always have something great. So I'm very very happy that you are having a human moment and saying, hey, sometimes you don't do anything to improve your life and that's okay, and I like that. Now, Lee, the pressure is kind of on because you're not on this podcast ever, so you gotta come with something hot. I'm just kidding,

it's not it's okay if you don't. All right, well, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go with the baked goods theme here because I have actually, um taught myself how to make pies during quarantine I have been making pies. I say it's like an activity to do with the children, but more often than not, like it becomes just me doing it by myself. And I have learned that the secret to a good pie crust is vodka. Woh is it?

Just is it? Because if you have enough vodka, then you forget how something tastes and you're just like, okay, if you're drunk, it doesn't matter how you know, it's something about how it the moisture of the flour and the butter and makes the vodka in there and good things happen. So it's it's only like four tables love that. But but but yeah, so okay, I think I think we're going to do it. We've done berries and peaches, and I feel that I'm like making the most of

the seasonal fruit right now. That's good, that's very very you know what, send one, you can send one my way if you'd like. I'll I can be the tester for that and we can have so well. I love that I'm eating donuts. Karen's just kicking back, You're making pies. We're having a good time. This is that's what this episode is all about. It is about following whatever feels right,

speak of that. Let's get let's get into it. I know it's weird that the show is called that, and we called the show that because I say it all the time. But let's get into it. Um, Karen, we're gonna see you in a bit, Lee, it's time for a little one on one. So you and I have something in common. We both dropped out. You went to a bit more school than I did. You did a little bit more, but you dropped out of your chosen career at the time to chase another goal. So tell

me a little bit about your dropout story. So I went to law school, like a lot of people, because I didn't know what I wanted to do. And after I went right after college. And I think of law school for a lot of people as a socially acceptable procrastination technique where you have you get this degree and everyone's excited that you're a lawyer, but um, you actually haven't figured out what you want to do yet. So

I really liked law school. I found it interesting studying famous cases and it's a lot of human interest stories. So but once I got to a law firm, it was a real rude awakening it was a lot of reviewing documents in a conference room. I wore these like rubber covers over my fingers so I wouldn't get paper cuts. I think I was in the last like fully paper

document review. I think it's all digital now. But but it was not glamorous and it was long hours and I didn't feel very passionate about the work that I was doing, so I left the law firm. I worked for a judge, which was wonderful. I love that it was such interesting stories and being in court, and I thought that was that was wonderful. But that's that was only a year. Uh, And when I went back to the law firm, I started thinking really about what I

wanted to do next. I come from a creative family. My father is an artist and my mother's a writer, so for me going to law school is a bit

of a rebellion against them. When I was growing up, I thought like, why can't my parents, you know, go to offices and wear suits and like my friend parents and my father was teaching drawing classes and there would be like nude models there, and I thought this was literally the most embarrassing thing that could happen to a person, and I was like, when I grew up, I am going to go to an office and wear a suit and this is great. But I really had no idea

what that meant. I feel like, I feel like your story is so the opposite of everybody. Like usually their parents are like, you need to go to school and be this, and they're like, no, mom, I want to be an artist. Your parents were literally the opposite you. You said you might be the first person in history who's ever rebelled against their parents and went to more school. I don't know if that's a thing. It's now a thing thanks to you. Sorry, I'll let you continue. Yeah.

So I thought law school was the answer. I wasn't going to be like my parents. But as I as I was exploring more, I realized that what I loved was writing. And there were certain aspects of law where I get to write, but it wasn't as creative of And actually the judge that I clerked for told me when I was clerking, she was like, you're very wonderful with the facts, Like I love when you write the opinion section and the and the and the facts section.

You're good at telling the story. And that little comment was sort of enough to make me feel like maybe I could try doing this. So I started. Um, I started working in the morning early and writing and submitting things, and little by little I felt like there was something

there that wasn't just my imagination. And I also felt that looking down the road of being a lawyer, it wasn't it wasn't what I wanted ultimately, and I convinced myself that it was better to be on the bottom wrong of the ladder that you want to be on, then moving up to the top of the ladder you don't want to be on. So um, yeah, So finally, you know, I've been practicing law for seven years. I decided to stop and and give it a go, and

that that's that's what happened. But I still feel like it's it's a transition that I'm almost still in even a number of years later. Right, Okay, so let's let's I want to dissect that a little bit. So, I like, how much weight you don't give law school, But it's a pretty heavy thing, like as as everybody knows, like law school, it's like years and years of study and hard work and you're balancing social life, you're balancing your family,

you're still trying to have fun. You're in your early to mid twenties, You're you are spending all this money for schooling, You're probably going through internships and not getting paid for things. They're being wildly underpaid. And then most people do that stuff so that they can eventually have a very very nice paying job, a very nice salary.

Like you mentioned, they climb that ladder, they get to the top of that ladder and they can go, Okay, all of those you know, paper cuts and the little rubber fingertips and and sitting and being told what to do and not really having um your opinion being heard. It's worth it now because of this having transitioned out of that, do you what are your thoughts on that? Do you feel like it was a waste? Was it

worth it to you? Do you regret spending all of that time in that school, paying for that education, studying time that you maybe could have been having fun, you know, doing the quote unquote artists things since now you are an artist. I don't I don't regret it. I mean, the financial piece is hard to swallow. Yeah, that that

is definitely definitely true. But I do feel like I was able to take things from that experience, even writing skills, that that we're helpful, and also that it's now something that I can write about that not everyone can write about, and that and that's useful and and so in some ways, yes, I like you think about the prom like I think, well, what if I just started out writing, would I be so much further along? And and and what if that? And and I think it's you know, you just never

know how things would have worked out. So I try to be really, you know, at peace with with that decision of going to law school and taking the really circuitous route. But but yeah, sometimes I think, well, what if I had done it differently? And what was the meaning of it? And and and you have to kind

of continually revisit that. At least I do absolutely, And I mean I'm very very firm believer in the concept of everything you've done, every every decision you made, every mistake, every success lad you exactly to where you are, and if you wanted something change, then it probably wouldn't lead you to where you are now. So I don't ask that question in the terms of thinking you did the

wrong thing at all. You obviously did the right thing, because there are so many rewards about what you the decision you made and writing and now UM and I want to talk about those things you're right or now and you're writing actually helps other lawyers transition away from law when a not really speaking to them the same way that it didn't really speak to you. What made you, I guess identify like like you said, you know this gave you this perspective you can write about things that

nobody else has written about. What what made you come up with that idea to say, hey, maybe I should write in a way that that could inspire other people to do the same as me. So I have a lot of lawyer friends and people I went to law school with, and I felt that like a lot of people were unhappy and thinking about ways to transition at

least out of a law firm into something else. And you know, I talked to a lot of people about it, and I noticed that there were a lot of people who we're seeing like career counselors or are sending me to different websites about UM transitioning for lawyers because it's it's not the most transferable degree, uh that people think it necessarily is. Because it teaches you a lot of

critical thinking. But if you want to go into a different profession, you're still going to have to prove yourself and and start kind of on the low end of that profession because you haven't had the experience. I mean, I interned in a magazine when I was in my early thirties and extremely pregnant. I mean I was like walking around with like college students and I was ten years older than them and stuck out. Literally, how did you?

How did you power through those moments? I mean, I know that, Like, I feel the same way, and I know it doesn't have any you know, any comparison, but I feel the same way when I'm a twenty four year old man trying to make TikTok's with fourteen year old kids, Like I feel like that, you know, And so how did you? What did you tell yourself? Because I think a lot of people feel like that, maybe, um, you know, and my album The Gospel of twenty three, I have a whole song that feels like that. You're

just like I feel old. I feel like an old person. And and when you're like you said, you're you're like extremely pregnant. By the way, That's my new favorite quote. Um, when you're extremely pregnant and you're you're you're you're not necessarily fitting in with all these other interns, but you're following your passion. Well, how did you balance the emotions of that, because I know, at least for me, I've felt those I felt both like, man, I'm so much

wiser than all these people. That gives me the leg up, and then also feeling like, man, I'm so much older than these people. I feel like I don't fit in. Maybe maybe it's too late for me. Mm hmm. I think that as a writer and as a creative person, I always think about something that Nora Ephron said, which is everything is copy. So when I was like waddling around to the copy machine, I would think, you know what, like I could write about this and this is kind

of funny. Um. And I felt like it was an experience and and I was going to have it because I wanted to know what it was like to work in a magazine and if I wanted to work in a magazine as opposed to be freelance. And so I was like, this is about what what I'm going to take from this experience? Um, you know what I want to take from it, and even if it's you know,

a little untraditional, then that's okay. But I think it's a creative person always thinking like even your your your most self conscious moments, even your most um really kind of doubting moments, those kinds of things can actually make for the most relatable creative expressions if you write about those things, if you sing about those things, because everyone feels that way, and if you are okay experiencing them and expressing them that that that that will actually be

a worthwhile creative experience. Uh So I try to think of it, well, what can I kind of turn this into, even if it's many years down the road or um. But I think that's helpful. Wow, I love that. And we we've already talked about We've talked about your basically this whole dropout journey. You know you are. You were in one of the most prestigious professions in my opinion,

and you just weren't happy and you slowly started. And I think that's where I identify with you in the same way of my journey where it wasn't like I woke up one morning and I was like, I'm a musician, I'm quitting school. Here goes this. It was more of a transition of like, I want to focus on this, let's try this. You're double timing at at one point where you're writing in the morning's early early early, still

going to your job. And so I have one last question for you, and it's it's your advice for people like you and I who who you know find themselves in a place where they know they don't fit, or something that doesn't necessarily work for them, or a job that's just leading them down a path of of maybe not feeling purposeful, not feeling happy. What's your advice for for those people in terms of having the courage to

to identify with it and make that move. I would say to invest in the time to feel you're out what it is you want to do, whether that's speaking to some kind of career counselor or you know, doing

the work. There's lots of online resources, uh for kind of taking those tests that let you know what kind of profession be better and or if you know what it is, kind of starting that process while you're in your job, because I think that is helpful and clarifying and we'll make you realize, like, is this something I really want to go for And also you'll feel more confident if you if you do end up going for it, if you've kind of put down a little bit of

roots before you make that that leap. But I think it's also in something I had to remind myself important to think. Like I would also be like, well, it's too late. You know, I've done this for a long time. I'm not twenty one, Like it's too late. But then you think, well, life is actually really long, So do I want to be doing this for another forty years or what? Like what if I started this process now? And like, I'm never going to be um younger than

I am now. So I think it's helpful to think about the length of of time that you could be doing something else. I love that. And and Gary V. I shout out Gary Vynerchuk all the time. Um, he's one of my favorite people on social media who always talks about, you know, the concept of people feeling old and him basically saying, none of you guys, unless you're the oldest person on earth, You're not old, you know.

And uh and and I think what you just said is something I loved And I've never even heard that before. But it's like, you're never gonna be younger than you are right now. So if you think you're old, now, wait ten years and you're really gonna be old. Like this is the youngest. You got to take advantage of that and go for it. Um. Well, Lee, thank you so much. We're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, I'm actually gonna let you have a

little break if you want. I'll virtually give you one of these donuts and you can just munch on it. Uh. And when we come back, I'm gonna be talking with Karen about the emotional side of of changing your path. All right, we are back, and apparently so is the construction going on outside. Um, So if you hear anything, I will let you know that's the construct. And I think they're they're breaking down a wall and and uh, it's it feels very close close to home for me. Um.

And now I'm joined with Karen. Karen, how do you feel? Do you have any thoughts before we get into our thoughts, um, just your thoughts on Lee's story. I've never heard anything like it in terms of somebody who went you know, I've heard for me it was like high school and then music, but hers was like lawyer and then artists like I feel like those were polar opposites. What are

your thoughts? One of the things I heard in Lee's story is how your deepest truth really wants to break through the surface, and that there was something about her path as a writer or her calling as a writer that just finally broke through, like like a seed sprowsing through the soil, you know, and that she could not have kept going the way she was going. She had

to follow that that true path absolutely. Um. Well, before we get into our conversation, I want to speak to that because, uh, seventy percent of Americans are going to go to a four year school. So I'm part of the seventy of Americans will go to a four year school and less than two thirds of them will graduate with a degree. They'll pay for school and not even get the thing you pay for. Yeah, what do you

make of that? I just I don't know. Especially, we're gonna need a whole episode in terms of the politics side of like the economics of schooling. You know, having a girlfriend who's who's going to u c l A And studying like a very prestigious major because her goal is there, or having friends who go to really high end schools and are willing to pay you know, lawyers who go to Harvard pay for it and become you know these lawyers who end up it ends up all

paying off in the end. But it is insane that this is how much like I'm looking at people's yearly costs. Oh my goodness, it is insane. And then and then almost half of them don't even get the thing they pay for. That's literally like going to a restaurant ordering a bunch of food, paying for it ahead of time, and then they go now waiting too long. I'm gonna go.

I'm just gonna leave. That's just insane to me. And I want to talk about those feelings a little bit later, but before we get into it, You're actually this is crazy. You're the black sheep in this group. You did not drop out, You stayed in school. You are also one of the like and and no no offense to Lee at all. You're obviously wildly smart because you went to law school. But you, in our personal relationship, are one of the most insightful humans that I know. That's why

I come to you for advice and everything. Karen did you always know you wanted to follow this path of being an enlighteners? Like I think more than a therapist, you are like an enlightener to me, So I'm gonna call you that. Um did you always know that that's what you wanted to do or did you have some of some false starts that maybe you dropped out of those ideas before for a long time, I didn't know. I have a lot of areas of interest. I grew up in a family of teachers, and also education was

always emphasized as being very important. I'm also the granddaughter of immigrants, so my my mother's father like literally was off the boat and worked in the laundry and had very humble beginnings and worked as did the sort of

quote American dream thing and became a lawyer actually. But um, so, education, the value of education was always like like the ethical value of education and being the best person you can be was always something that was highly emphasized with that also with that immigrant family story built in and and this may be a topic for another episode, but I have been thinking about higher education as and white supremacy culture.

So I just want to like throw that in there a little bit, which is not to say that education isn't important, but kind of to your point about what is happening that people are going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt into a system that may or may not actually be serving their their well being or are collective well being, And is there a way that we can we need to really reassess how this not the

value of education, but the structural systems of education. I think, combined you and I have the biggest pot of tea to pour over all of us in there and their education system right now. And Lee, if you got some tea, you're more than welcome to bring it in vodka and some vodka pie so we can just get drizzy drunk while a munching on a nice little, nice little cinnamon

apple pie. I didn't answer your question, though, which is that, UM I knew that it was important for me to be of service, to be supporting people, and to be changing the world and to be like a change agent or an enlighten or whatever you want to call it. I didn't really know what that was gonna look like.

And when I was in high school and I had a public education, UM I took this class in high school called Problems of Young Adulthood, and one of the semesters in that class, we had to do a project to investigate what career path we might want to take. And so at that time there was literally a huge encyclopedic book called the Occupational Handbook. Maybe it's online now, I don't know. And I went to the library and spent hours pouring through that book, and I landed on

social work. Even though I looked at the jobs that social workers had and I thought, well, this is cool because I would have so many different things that I could do. I liked the idea of having a variety of options, and more importantly, I felt like the values of that work really resonated with my own values that had to do with empowerment and social justice and respecting the dignity of all people and and I'm trying not to use the word help really, but it's more like

to be of support. And so those things really attracted me and felt like they were values that I cared about. And from a very practical point of view, knowing that I could do a bunch of different things, it was never my plan to be a therapist. Never. Um, it is no surprise to me that even though therapist was not your main goal, you had you know, you were on that path of wanting to be of service or

wanting to be of support to to your fellow human beings. Um, but I want to talk now about this whole concept of what might have been. You went to school, you kind of followed your path. I didn't go to school, but I also followed my path, and I have a lot of feelings, like I had mentioned where it's like, man, it would have been nice to to be on the basketball team and you know, to be to try and be the homecoming king or what you know whatever, all of that that high school stuff is. I didn't get

any of that. I went to one dance with my with my my little teenage girlfriend. I went to like a Sadie Hawkins dance. Um. But other than that, like I didn't get to do any of the high school stuff.

Like I kind of became an adult at fifteen, and I have a lot of feelings and and and almost like I don't know, like trying to fill voids, you know, like I think that a lot of my youth was was lost in chasing a dream, which I don't regret that at all, but I do often have those feelings of like being sad or or or being like, man, I missed out on that. That sucks. How do you how do you overcome that? You're talking about one aspect of education and like full disclosure, like I didn't do

any of those things in high school either. I didn't go to the prom, I never went to dances. I didn't feel like I fit in like you would if you look on paper, you would it would appear as if I have really like taken the traditional path. But if you actually could peel back the layers, you would be like, oh, this is nothing like what I thought

it was going to be. So I didn't interesting it's different too, Like I chose not to do those things weren't important to me because I was I was the art theater kid, you know, like I was not the homecoming Like I wasn't into sport, you know, like I wasn't I really rejected a lot of that. But there is a part of at least going to college that is the social developmental part, like how you figure out like who am I and how do I create a life?

That is about being my authentic self. But there are also pieces of education that are really about what's going to help me to make a living and support a family or you know, have a right livelihood. So both of those things are important. Like, there are people who are really like living the dream, who are really suffering economically. There are people who are thriving economically, but they feel

like their lives are empty. So so then vibe with me for a little bit because we all, well, we now have another piece in which we can relate to. So so do you ever have those thoughts? And and and I know you had mentioned there's basically there's there's two different pieces of schooling. You know, there's the experiential part and then there's the learning part. Experiential is what I'm kind of focused on, uh for now, because it's

where it's the only place. Like do I regret sitting in a professor's lab and being like, hey, I really have a question. I don't regret that stuff at all. I more regret like you had mentioned the things that helped shape a human being. You know, I think proms can they can be very shaping for people. Not necessary at all. Obviously none of them are necessary because I am here, But like, there are moments in which some

people you know, I was. We were talking to Neza in the first episode of this podcast where she talks about high schools where she you know, lost her virginity, where she like where she like tried things for the first time. I know a lot of my friends drink for the first time and all of those things that I didn't experience because I was so focused on work.

So telling me that you also didn't do those things, do you have any regrets that, like, do you ever think, like, man, I do wish that I had been a little bit more about the experiential part of school and not just the academic I don't regret it for like in that age, like in the high school age, I had that in other parts of my life I had definitely in college, I had that. I felt like I had a sense of community, and I was able to go to a college that I felt like, again like reflected those same

values to me. And I went to a college, for example, that had like a cooperative education program, So half of the time I was on the campus studying and the other half of the time I was in paid internships, so I was actually like doing real work because yeah, because experiential education was a real value, so that when I graduated from college, I actually already had a resume UM and I also had one of the things that I think you have that people sometimes get in college

but not always, is having a mentor. So I had a mentor who was my advisor in college, and she was my She she died at the age of like nine, a couple of years ago, but I had a lifelong relationship with her. She she wrote my reference letter for graduate school. Like she was an important mentor in my life for my entire adult life. And so sometimes people get those in college, but sometimes you get a mentor like you have in other parts of your life and

your work. So maybe you could just say a little bit about like your professional mentors, Like, yeah, absolutely for you. That's why I think it's That's why I think the importance of of separating um, which is something that you did and brought up the academia part of schooling and the experiential part of schooling, because I think it's pretty plain and simple if you're basing it off of, Hey, I want to do this job, there is a clear

path in which I think you do that job. If you want to be a therapist, you go to school and you learn and get the degree and do all that stuff with therapy. If you want to be a lawyer, you do this. That part, to me is very very clear, and that's why I'm so happy that I had Like you said, I had a mentor. I went the route I think the best route that I could, which was focusing on practicing music my parents. You know, even my mentor still told me I needed to read. All of

the mentor. I think I have multiple mentors still told me I should read and learn, And that's why I'm so proud. Like you mentioned, you did your path exactly the way you wanted to. I did my path exactly the way I wanted to. I think my point is more now about people who kind of have conflicting feelings or even in hindsight may have might have conflicting feelings. I have no conflicting feelings about about going to school or you know, like having a degree. I have no

conflicting feelings about that. It's more the conflicting feelings about man like I didn't go to prom but I wanted to talk about is like the conflicting feelings that you might feel of anything, like whether it was going to prom, which you didn't feel that because you got that social aspect out of your school. I was I'm not even talking about the things I missed out in college because

my brain never even thought about college. I'm thinking, I'm just talking about the things that I was missing out in high school. And I know that a lot of people, you know, if you're part of that of a sevent of Americans who get their degree, and now we're having

those feelings. So my question now is is is it helpful at all to even dwell on the past like that or is it just like a fool's Errand I think regret is a complicated emotion, and um, we could spend a whole episode, Actually we could spend a whole year just on Regret the podcast. We should make a new podcast. So one question I often ask people when they're wrestling with these questions like about education or career

or whatever, is who are you doing this for? Mm hm, you know, like I'm going to go to law school or I'm gonna do this, or I'm going to do that. And it doesn't mean that we should only do for ourselves, because I think for a lot of us, we come from a culture or belief system that says I'm part of I am part of something bigger than and myself.

But if we only do it for other people and don't include ourselves in it, I think we're more likely to feel regret because then you realize, oh my god, I just spent ten years in a career that I actually hate because my parents wanted me to do it, or because I felt like I had to be successful because there were people in my family who didn't have

the opportunities that I had. So it's not that there's a right way or a wrong way there, but to really be able to ask yourself for whom am I making these choices, and am I making sure to include myself in those choices? I love that, And and actually we had we had addressed it a little bit, and it's something that I want to reinforce here, which is everything that you've done in your life, everything that I've done in my life has led me exactly where I

am now. So to regret, you know, I always I wrestle with regret because I try and practice what I preach. You know, I try and practice like everything that I did got me here, So not having a problem got me exactly where I wanted, what I trade where exactly I am now for what for going to a prom? No, not at all, And that's something that really helps me. But you also brought that up, and you also brought even a better point up, which is who are you

doing it for. Let's say that you get past your you know, let's say you want to leave school, you're in college, you're three years into your major, and you're like, I don't want to do this at all. I'm doing this for my parents, or I'm doing this because I think it's the right thing to do, but I actually

love music, or I actually love painting. What is your advice for somebody who has that moment but they do have expectations from other people, their parents, maybe their parents are even helping them pay for school, their friends who are doing well and having success because they stayed in school, all of those pressures that come with it. What's your

advice for that? I think having somebody who who can help you to clarify what's true for you, whether that's you know, as Lee said, whether it's a career counselor or a therapist, or an advisor or a mentor or a group of friends. But you know, sometimes we think we know what we want, it turns out to actually

be not true. Um. The other thing is we're not trapped hopefully, So like if at a certain point down the road, even with tremendous success, like twenty years from now, you might say, you know what I actually want to be. I think I might want to take a break from music and like be a personal trainer, or I might want to be a restaurant critic, or I might want to like like John Stewart, like left his career to

go have a farm in New Jersey. You know. Like, so we have and the best of circumstances, with the economic support that we need, we have choices. Like Lee's example was great, like she realized, oh my god, I have something else not only that I can do, but that I feel called to. And so regret I think comes more when we feel like we're stuck and we

can't get ourselves out. But sometimes we're not stuck and we can actually like say, you know what, I don't want to work in a hospital as a medical social worker anymore. I want to go off on my own and see how this goes. And I did, and here I am. I love that. So we'll be right back. And when we come back, we are talking with Lee and Karen about how to know if a traditional path is right for you. Don't go anywhere. We are back.

This is let's get into it. And we've had some pretty I didn't even know how heart felt, you know. I was kind of thinking we'd talked like and it would be like, you know, da dada school, da dada work, you know, fun, and then Karen and I just got like hella deep with it, and uh, and now we're here and we're talking about how to know if a

traditional path is right for you. The three of us have all done uh pretty different paths, have different focuses and different paths in life, and so I want to have, uh, just kind of a quick round table and I'll ask one question, what do you wish you would have known

before going on to continuing your studies. I guess I really wish I'd known more about what being a lawyer was like then, Like Ali mcbeel, I think that my diligence was was pretty lacking, and if I if I had done a little bit more um looking into into what into what the career was actually like as opposed to just jumping into three three years of school. You know, I might have I might have thought differently, and and maybe I would have done it, but I would have

been a more educated consumer. M I like that, Karen, Um. I wish that I had known that mistakes are helpful because they help you clarify, uh and get back on the right path. Oh. I love that too. I think mine as a as the opposite, because it wasn't for continuing,

but because I discontinued. Is the importance of whatever you're doing, whatever you want to do, if it is dropping out of high school, if it is dropping out of college or not going to college, the importance of whatever you want to do really treating it like it's school, really learning about it like it's school. I know, when I first stopped going to online school, I definitely didn't supplement learning and that same capacity. So I did find myself being like, what am I doing right now? As a

sixteen year old kid? What am I doing? You know? And I was like, Oh, it's because I need to learn more. And that's when I started getting with the mentorship, like we had mentioned, Karen, with the friends who are like read this book about business because you're gonna be a businessman. If you're gonna own your own business, read this book about music, read this book about all these

other things. So I think my advice that I would have told myself is don't stop learning in that capacity because just because you don't go to traditional school or you don't do the traditional route, keep pushing, keep you know, learning in that capacity. Treat it like it is school and not just Hey, I don't have to go to

school anymore, so I can do whatever I want. Um, alright, this next question is what does the voice sound like that tells you, uh, something might not be right and it is time you to change paths or to change directions. I know for me it was it was even the voice of my father who gave me that. You know, I'm very lucky that my dad had experienced what it's like to not follow the traditional route, and he said, look, if this isn't you, it's not you. And I'm very

lucky that my parents are like that. So my voice is actually not an intangible thing. It's my own dad. What about you, Karen, It's a felt sense in the body. It's like your own personal GPS that says, you know, go this way, go that way, um, and that we there's a lot of clutter and noise that just that can distract us from that that internal barometer that actually like knows where we need to go. It's other people's expectations, it's societal expectations, it's trauma, it's you know, the things

we learned that maybe didn't actually service. It's all these things. And so it's really like that voice is sometimes like a little fluttering in the stomach. I think that's the thing is is it's a good note that you're pointing out, is that it doesn't have to be this loud siren in your ear that's like wrong way, wrong way. It could be something as simple as a feeling. And you have to have that that vulnerability honestly with yourself to

hear that Lee. Anything to add I would say to pay paying attention to the times when something happens or you achieve something and you feel like a genuine kind of spark of joy as opposed to the kind of times when it's it's external. Because for me, I felt like I was I always really like school, and I like studying. I like taking tests even and getting good grades. But those things were all all kind of external, like you're doing well, and I like that, like achieved. I

became sort of an achievement addict. But then there were times when the things that I that really brought me joy weren't necessarily those things. They were the times that I, you know, felt like I'd expressed myself and kind paying

attention to that and not the external markers. It's hard listening to the external you and the internal you because sometimes they're telling you two different things, right, So it leads me to my next question, Karen, is there any point where you think, um, you should maybe you should stick to something that's traditional, even if it doesn't necessarily feel like it's the right thing, because I know a lot of you know, it's like sometimes I hated I

hated English class, and I was like, I'm dropping out because English sucks. Obviously you should stay in school just because you you know, just because you're uncomfortable at one point, or you don't like something at one point. In my career, even in music, there's things that I don't like, but I stick to it because I know that it's my passion.

So I guess putting that in the traditional space, is there any moments that you feel like you should stick to it, even if it's not something that you love absolutely. What's helped me is if I am learning something or doing something that feels really hard or not like me, but I can reframe it so that I can see that there's some value for myself. Like I took trigonometry

and I have not used one drop of it. I don't remember, I don't give a ship and I didn't then and I don't now, and I'm not even sure how I passed the class. But if somebody had actually been able to say to me, this is how it actually might serve you later, like in a way that was actually true, I might have been willing to My brain does not work that way. I was never going

to be good at that. But I have found it helpful when I'm learning something that's really hard or doing something that doesn't feel quite like me, to be able to ask myself, is there anything here for me that is worth the suffering that I'm enduring? And sometimes it's just I can pay my bills right, Like, so there is the economic reality, but there might also be like Lee was talking earlier about, like is going through law school,

like applicable or helpful to other careers. Probably sometimes yes and sometimes no. But if there isn't anything, if it's not going to give you anything of value, let it go. I love that. I love that. Now. That's the thing I love about this podcast is even though we all have different paths, the three of us are all walking testimonies or whether it's your actual job, Karen, to advise people to chase happiness and not chase a diploma or or a job unless it is truly what is internally

inspiring you. Um do either of you have and we'll start with you Lee, any other wisdom that you have just on this topic. I mean, I think we've had such great conversations today about going the traditional route, sticking a traditional route, or if not, you know, making that plan to change your life, following the steps to figuring out what it is that you really want to chase and if it if it involves going to school, great or if it just involves educating in other ways also great.

So is there any final wisdom that you guys have to share before we wrap this up? I would just say that that I think knowing that even you know, even when you're doing what you're meant to do or that you love to do, it will still sometimes feel really difficult and that and that and being sort of okay with that, and it's sort of like what you're saying before, not just like I hate, like I don't want to do this, you know, forget it, and kind of rolling with that a little is something that advice

I give myself often because when you give something up, it's natural to think, well, you know, I gave up something to do this, and now it's difficult for me right now, and so was that was that worth it? And just kind of rolling with with that a little bit? Yeah, chasing your dreams is gonna be hard. And that's the thing, the biggest thing. All three of us are now very happy doing what we love doing, but all three of us, none of us have a perfect, easy, smooth sailing time.

It's very you know, it's very much so still a grind, still a struggle, but at the end of day, it's a payoff because we are in fact chasing our dreams. Karen, any last wisdom to add, Yeah, I want to say, chase integrity. Oh, because sometimes chasing happiness can like we are socialized to think certain things are going to make us happy again, sort of the inside versus outside thing.

But if you're chasing your integrity and you are living your life in alignment with your integrity, the happiness will come right. Your dreams will be part of that, and your sense of wholeness as a human being will be intact. Wow, that's beautiful. Let's leave it at that. Chase integrity, chase your dreams and if it means the traditional route, go for it and work hard. And if it doesn't, then chase whatever it is and learn and stay stay educating

yourself and chasing that integrity. That's a great way to end it. At this point, I'm gonna take my headphones off and it's done. Um. But thank you Karen, and thank you Lee. I want to this is the last moment of the episode. Uh, and we do something all the time. It's not so shameless promo. So Lee, I want you to just promote the hell out of something that you're working on right now. Promote your social media accounts,

whatever you want to promote. It's your time. Well, I I am currently basically working on a book that is not coming out yet, so when the time comes, I will do I will definitely. We're gonna bring you back on here to do your shameless bring me back on you bring me back on? I love it? And where can people find you on social media? Um lee abs at Instagram, um and Twitter amazing. Make sure you check that out. Karen, you're a pro at this not so

shameless promo. Let's hear it. Uh. People can find me on Twitter and Instagram at k e replenish or you can go to my website Karen Erlkman dot com. I love it and you know where you can find me at alex Iona on all platforms ai o n oh, the best part about having a weird last name. I am so grateful that you came in here uh and listen to this podcast. Please make sure you subscribed to the podcast and rate our podcast. That is how we grow. Make sure you leave us a little bit of a

review if you'd like. Thank you so much for listening. We will talk to you very very soon and enjoy the rest of your day peace. We really want you to get the help you need, so if you need help, please seek independent advice from a competent healthcare or mental health professional. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of

I heart Media or its employees. This podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, counseling, or therapy. Listening to the podcast does not established dr patient relationship with hosts or guests of alex IONO, Let's Get Into It or I heart Media. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on this podcast. Well, if that's a doozy