It's personal: why money makes couples argue

We think women need to talk more openly about money because money really matters. Be embarrassing or confusing. Join the conversation. We'll be discussing a whole range. Hello everyone, I'm Laura. Welcome back to the AJ Bell Money Matters podcast, which is not afraid to tackle those taboo money issues that can wreak havoc on your life. Isn't that right, Danny?

That is absolutely right. And money can be so divisive. It can be the start of a whole lot of disagreements with your significant other, especially if you let things. And the one thing that we've heard from a lot of our Money Matters listeners, and what we've gleaned from a whole load of research that we've carried out over the past four years, is that money is hard to talk about.

But it's even harder if you don't talk with your partner about it, if you don't have those conversations with your partner early on about management. In fact, we recently did a survey with the lovely folk at Opinium and half of people said that they disagree with their partner about money.

Interestingly, slightly more women said that than men, and the number is highest among younger people. So 57% of 18 to 34 year olds said they'd disagreements with their significant other about money versus 43% of those who are Are you a spender or a saver? When do you feel that it's okay to splurge? And do you share the money decisions? Because It seems that whether or not you want to spend all your cash or you want to save a big chunk of your cash.

is the biggest cause of disagreement amongst both sexes. And Laura, I know that you love a spreadsheet. You've got all your savings ducks in a row, but If you couldn't splash out on a holiday, I can imagine that things in your household might get a bit tense, and wanting to spend more on holidays came in at number two on the list of areas for financial disagreement.

I can see why that is. I mean holidays is probably one of the big biggest kind of single expenses for people in a year. And so you can see how A, the cost could really rack up and B, people might have very different expectations. of what their holiday levels are and what they're spending on it. Fortunately, I'm also married to someone who likes holidays and believes in spending money In fact, sometimes I have to rein my husband in, which I think would shock regular listeners of this.

It shocked me. Exactly. think if there wasn't me reining us in, how insane it could get. So but I can see how that becomes a kind of catalyst. I also think it depends what you're used to. You know, you might come to the relationship having had your family holidays being, you know, a week camping in the UK and be getting together with someone who's used to a kind of five star all inclusive cruise situation. And actually there's quite a lot of space between that in terms of your upbringing.

yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n communicating when it comes to money. Was that more when you were young? it's still now? I I think it still happens now, definitely. And funnily enough, holidays are again one of the biggest areas that we fight about. And My husband comes from a background where it was uh a week camping in the UK when he was a kid or the likes of butlins, whereas

I was incredibly lucky that we were able to go abroad quite often. So for me a holiday a year without a holiday in the sun just feels so wrong, whereas he's like, well Agreed. He ways he says no, no, no, we should have, you know, a week in the UK and then uh you know, a week in the sunshine. So um yeah, particularly as we recall this in February. And see about the future for the year. But there we go. It is February, and that's the reason that we are talking about money and relationships.

Uh February, of course, home to Valentine's Day with all those proposals, or at least romantic dinners for two. But how do you start off on the right foot when it comes to a relationship? Now the bit that I found really interesting with my nerdy fine.

Is that in that research that we did, eighteen percent of those surveyed disagreed on how to put away their money. So for example, whether to invest in stocks and shares or to plump for cash. And I think having those different knowledge levels, different financial experience levels, but also different risk levels probably sums up a lot of the issues that people have when it comes to money and planning for the long And you can find all of the details about that survey in the podcast.

Thankfully we don't have to have all the answers because we've enlisted the help of financial psychotherapist and author Vicky Raynor. Hi Vicki, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you for inviting me. Okay, Vicky, I'm gonna jump right in here because I am really excited about our conversation. Um, we've heard from our survey that half of people cited money as the cause of disagreements in relationships. How often does that come up with the people that you talk to?

Well, money is one of the most common sources of conflict in romantic relationships and depending on the study it's either the leading cause or one of the leading causes of conflict, as you said. One study from 2023, it's a UK study, it showed that a quarter of people in relationships argue about money at least once a week. And even happy couples disagree about money more than any any other topic that they disagree on. And the research also shows that couples who disagree about

Are significantly more likely to separate or divorce. So it's conflicts that have an impact on the relationship. So it's important. to deal with them and pay attention to what is happening. Um, because sometimes I find money conflicts are not really only about money and there's a more a lot more to it that needs to be understood and unpacked. I know Laura's gonna ask a bit more about that, but I suppose for me, why is money so

Well, I think it's a trigger because it's not just practical. Money can be very symbolic. We can use and misuse money to act out emotional issues. And sometimes those emotional issues belong to the relationship. So an argument, for example, about emerging finances or emerging accounts. uh could be both about our different views on that topic, but it could also be about one partner fearing intimacy and so merging too much means losing independence.

And then the other partner being uh eager to have the reassurance that comes with a relationship that is progressing and things are getting merged and shared. To give you another example, an argument about money secrets could could be about that, but it could also be about different views on transparency uh versus privacy, uh also different sensitivities around trust and control. So I think there's a lot that money conflict Touch on, and that's why they become so emotional.

But I think it's also because differences are inevitable, right? We're all really different in what we value with our stance on what's too frugal, what's excessive, what's too risky, what isn't. So inevitably we're going to come up against

conflict in different areas. And generally we're not really taught uh how to manage conflict. Sometimes it's modeled in families and we have good examples of that, but not everybody does. And so We either mismanage conflict or we try to avoid it, which means that then money can uh can come up when it's too late, too much resentment has built up, it's and it it becomes a very emotional

fight. So I think leaving it too late is one of the reasons why it becomes such a strong trigger. A lot has built up

And it's not always easy, I think, for people in a couple to identify what the real argument is about. Is it about the money, is it about how much someone spent or, you know, their money habits, or is it about something else? So is that a common thing that you see as well? Yes, so it can be about a power struggle more than it can be about money. So I've seen couples who are arguing about how decisions, uh financial decisions are made, but underneath uh that narrative there's also

maybe what each person brings to that in terms of their own sense of entitlement. You know, are they entitled to have a stronger voice in the relationship for whatever reason? And so they they use money in a way as an excuse To say well I make more money so I should have a bigger say in that Um sometimes it's about the um emotional needs that haven't been met.

that can turn into a money argument where I've seen, for example, you see it in romantic relationships, you also see it between parents and children, you know A child asking for more money could also be a way of saying, I want to be looked after more, I'm not ready to separate. Um and that can happen in romantic relationships where uh I've seen um

One of my clients uh kept complaining that the husband wasn't giving her enough money and actually, you know, they were a billionaire family, so clearly access to wealth wasn't the problem. She to all his cards. What was what emerged with time was how um she felt he wasn't investing enough in the relationship. There were emotional needs that weren't met. So I think there's uh there's something that we're trying to communicate somehow through these money arguments that needs to be unpacked.

Yeah, and is there usually a kind of common reason why money becomes an issue between a couple or is there m many different reasons? I would imagine communication is one of the main Yeah, I I think you're right. Not having communicated enough. Uh sometimes we even when we start dating somebody Uh we we ask them about their preference in terms of holidays or of cuisines or even sexual positions, but money doesn't come up very early in the relationship.

sometimes because we're very um ashamed that when the light spotlight turns to us, what will it reveal? A lot of people carry a great deal of shame when it comes to how they manage their own finances. And so they avoided the topic so that they are not asked the question in return. So that's definitely something. But I think there's a few recurring arguments that I see. Um w the one big umbrella one are the differences as we're talking spend, uh how much should be saved.

how debt should be handled, um, you know, how how much should be put away for a pension later on. So people have different preferences. They value different things. So they might spend money quite differently. They have different anxieties. And so that translates into different money behaviours and when those clash, couples often are The other big umbrella is how the decisions are made. You know, who has the power and the decision making? Are people

uh are both partners feeling heard or at least consulted? Or is somebody going ahead and making choices that will impact both? I don't know, I've decided to retire, you know, but that has an impact on the partner, uh, in terms of finances, lifestyle um and anxieties, you know, are these decisions made together or are they made unilaterally? I would say those are the the bigger ones.

The things that people can do in order to stop money issues. becoming overwhelming. Because it it is still something of a taboo subject. It's not the kind of stuff that you tend to talk about with your mates down the pub in the same way that maybe you talk about your sex life. Mm. There I think communication i is the key, uh but not just

informing somebody of how you do things. I think there's a big difference between that and being genuinely curious about why your partner is a particular way about money. You know, what Why do they cling on to it so much? Is that something that used to be done in the family? Is it because maybe they grew up in scarcity and they're been taught and programmed to be careful with money, um or you know, are there other reasons? And and so I think uh curiosity's key because to give you an example, um

One of my clients was talking about how irritated she was getting with her partner because he kept sp wasting money away on stationery. And uh all this money was Just being spent on, you know, these needless items. She didn't see any point for them, and so on. And so they would argue about it every time he came back with uh, you know, a few more whatever erases. And I said, Well have you asked him why he spent me once?

And she said, Well, I I'm assuming he just likes them. And I'm like, Well ask. And what emerged were two things. One that Actually he he had memories, uh, w when he was young of going to the state uh going to the stationery shop and only be allowed to buy, you know, the standard pencil, the minimum necessary and then going to school and that was because the family really couldn't afford

had all these fancy pens and pencils and um and it was kind of a symbol of all that he couldn't afford and all of his friends could afford. And so it was it was a sensitive memory for him. But also what emerged is is that he was quite depressed in his job in the present and uh in the here and now. And he was an architect, so he did work with stationery quite a bit.

And uh actually during his lunch break, just this you this little trip to the shop uh was giving him a bit of a lift in his day. And and just having that conversation, not only did it Just make the problem go away because she quite literally at this point realizing the bigger issue, she couldn't care less about the stationer. She wanted him to be happy and maybe find a new job or something.

Yeah, it really shows how understanding can sometimes really help us um either tolerate something that that seemed uh irrational uh before, or find a compromise in which we both get So I think that's key. Uh I think the other thing I I often see is um when couples argue They tend to try to win the argument rather than maybe understand that there's always a pro and a con to different um money attitudes.

So the the typical example uh is a couple in which one is frugal and the other one spends quite easily. And when they argue, they tend to focus on, oh, you know, I'm I'm right uh because of this and you were wrong because of that. And there's two dimensions that get missed, and they are key to finding a complex. And that's, you know, where the downsides of my approach to money.

And what are the upsides of your approach to money? Because in a way the frugal partner who i tends to take the moral high ground, look how well I'm doing, look how uh you know, I'm saving. Can be secretly envious of how the other partner is enjoying their wealth more. They can indulge sometimes and have more. And vice versa, that the partner that spends more freely sometimes is quite unusable.

uh the control that the other partner can have sometimes in, you know, delaying gratification or putting money away for something bigger rather than spending it on all these smaller things. Uh so I think sometimes we have to um Listen but also be a bit uh more open to uh the downsides of what we do or how come how we might be complicit um in a dynamic that isn't working financially in the relationship.

You were saying earlier about um learning from your parents about how to have disagreements about money. You were just talking there about people's experiences in childhood really informing how they think about money, but One thing that has changed Is the way that

couples now tend to both go out to work. So the blueprint of our lives, of a woman's place in the world, w we don't really have anymore. And that means it can be quite difficult to figure out how to deal with some of these issues, particularly if, you know, in in certain cases, maybe the woman becomes the breadwinner and the man struggles with

Hm. It is a big problem and it's um it's recurring. Uh I see it in a lot of men and women. Uh because The one thing that tends to happen is that women often blame men for for the fact that they end up, you know, both having to look after the household and the children and now they have to work on top of Uh but sometimes I I invite women to think about whether they are complicit in that dynamic and the fact that

you know, they end up taking on more of that responsibility, maybe because at some level they feel they have to, or because at some level it's difficult to trust that the man will do as good a job because they haven't watched their father do it. Or they had don't have an imprint of m uh a man modelling uh that kind of n nurture and uh looking after the household and and so on. So I I think there is kind of what happens that are rational and contrast And then there's what happens unconsciously.

in which we might be asking for one thing, but setting things up to quite not work that way for us. And and so I think it's it's complicated because um without the script, without the models, we might fall back into what's familiar rather than what's best and what we think is And is it also quite tricky to identify when it's kind of a genuine money conflict in a relationship and when it's just

your own baggage that you're bringing to it or your your own kind of hang ups and issues. Because I think that requires a level of kind of self reflection that not necessarily everyone has, right? Hmm. Yeah, y you're right. It's not an easy thing to step outside of ourselves and look at what we're doing. Um and I think one useful question to ask is, you know, what role am I playing in this dynamic? You know, is this just them or is it also something I'm doing? And one e one easy way to

uh question that is to look at patterns. You know, is this what the relationship model that I always end up with? You know, has this happened in other relationships before? Because I'm the common denominator there and and so maybe there's something I do that invites this kind of whatever, controlling behavior or whatever. Um when w when for example we're we feel like

in retrospect, if we're really honest, that we're overreacting to small issues around money. I think that points us to, you know, something is really emotional for me here. I need to pay attention to it. I need to imagine. And sometimes i it is by observing our relationship with other people that we might see what's happening in our relationship here. So, you know, am I am I always the victim, even

in my relationship with my friends or my family? Or is it something that is only happening in my relationship with my partner? Um and that could point us to the fact that maybe It's us that is approaching things with a certain sensitivity all the time. Is there a right time and a wrong time to try and deal with the

um both in terms of uh at what point you start to talk about money and also when the conflict arises. Because it was interesting that our survey found that more younger people had disagreements about money than people fifty five plus, perhaps because, you know, some of those rough edges had already been worn away. Hm. Well, I think the more you d normalise talking about money in the relationship from early on, then the less likely you are to end up arguing. So I would start early. Uh I think

And what I mean by starting early, you know, I'm I'm not saying disclosing the full picture of your finances on your first date, but already on the first date you're picking up something from your partner. So attune to it, you know, how what are they doing about sharing the bill or not? Uh, you know, you can be curious about that. It there's no right or wrong, but be curious about oh, why do they prefer to pay? Um

you you'll w watch them make a decision about how expensive the wine they order is. You know, you might so there's a lot of or what they do in terms of getting back home, what choices do they have? Those um we make choices about money every day. And so when we're in a relationship. will be a lot of signs early on. And rather than just ignoring them, we can be curious from the beginning, invite a conversation about, oh, I noticed you did that. I wonder why.

Yeah, and that will help us then gather a lot of information and have a lot of more civilized conversations about money without letting it build up into just one moment of Explosive combat. Now when the when the conflict does come up, it's always best not to talk about things in the heat of the moment. It's always good to let ourselves calm down and and reflect a bit on what is it that they did that bothered us and we can go back later and say, you know, I felt

Anxious, upset, angry when you did that. Can you please help me understand why you did that? And um I think it's so important that these conversations happen in private, uh, not in front of other people. For a lot of people, money is an emotional topic. It is There's a lot of shame attached to it. And actually what you might be opening up, as we were saying earlier.

is not just a money fight. It could be about a lot more trust, intimacy and other things. You really want to be having that conversation privately with them and not bring Christmas dinner. Um You know, be mindful this it's small things, but don't bring it up when they're about to fall asleep or walk out the door. Make sure you you've created a space in which both people get a chance to talk and be heard, and then for it to be tackled properly.

And not just a throwaway comment that will just um make people feel uh defensive or unsettled with no space to resolve.

Vicky, that's been absolutely fascinating and I know I for one am definitely guilty of flinging those uh last minute barbs as my husband walks through the door and just expecting him to find time to deal with it then and there. We all do it. I um before we spoke today, I did get a chance to pour over your book, which is called Money on Your Mind. It's available at all the usual um formats online and in stores. Um, where else can people find you, Vicky?

Uh I'm on LinkedIn and on Instagram, Vicki Rainal uh psychotherapy. And of course if people have any questions uh as a result of this, I also write a column in the Times and the Sunday Times and they're very welcome to email me their questions and I'll try to address them there. Before we let you go, Vicky, um this is Laura's favourite bit of the podcast. It is the bit where we ask all of our guests to share a financial confession or a dilemma that they have experienced personally.

So I think my confession is that I tend to treat uh small expenses and big expenses very differently. And uh it's actually a cognitive bias called a scale in sensitivity, which means that you you stop evaluating value proportionately as the numbers get large. So sometimes I

I fall trapped to that. You know, I might get really frugal when it comes to uh choosing between two cereal brands and then when it comes to adding an extra star to the hotel, I tend Uh become more impulsive and less thoughtful.

I can definitely relate to that. Sometimes I think, you know, when you're hunting out for a bargain and you're trying to save a pound on something, sometimes I think, Yes, but then, you know, I just bought lunch yesterday and didn't think about it and spent way more on lunch and Yeah, exactly. You get disproportionately hung up on things. Yeah. And when you've got a lot of zeros on the end, you know, what's one more, I suppose? Oh gosh. Wrong, wrong. That's just wrong.

Vicki, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. I'm sure our listeners will have got so much out of today's episode. Thank you very much. Thank you for your great questions. Thanks, Vicky. And don't forget you can find us on the new Women and Investing Hub on the main AJBell website. So that's ajbell.co. The same great content that we've always had, but just in a new home. Let us know what you think. You can get in touch with us at hello at AJBellmoneymatters.co.

And you can still find us on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn at AJBellMoneyMatters. And of course importantly, you can still sign up to our newsletter so that you don't miss. And that is everything for today. So thanks very much for listening and we will catch you next time. Before you go, please remember this podcast is for educational purposes. And the views expressed don't necessarily reflect those of AJ Bell. The podcast isn't telling you if a certain investment is suitable.

Don't forget that the value of investments can be And you can lose money as well as the It's also important to remember that how you're taxed will depend on your individual circumstances. and rules can change. Formed in the past may not be the same as how it behaves in the future. If you want help, go see a qualified financial advisor.