How to combat imposter syndrome

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Hello and welcome back to the AJ Bell Money Matters podcast. I'm Laura. And I'm Danny, and this episode is all about imposter syndrome. You know that feeling? That little voice that tells you you're not good enough, that you shouldn't be in the room. We've all been there, right? Yes, I think we've all been there and confidence is a huge factor in why lots of women say that they don't ask for pay rises or promotions.

They don't apply for senior leadership positions, they don't feel able to return to the workplace, but also that they don't start investing as well. And we've got some top tips from Zoe Hayden Jones, podcaster and founder of the online platform Jobs for Women, about how to deal with that little voice to quiet it down. So keep listening.

But first, as we always do, we're gonna take that one big thing that's in the news at the moment, something that could impact your financial well being, and we will break it down and work out what it means for you. And this week, that thing is inflation. Now you might be thinking, hang on, inflation, that is so last year but You probably caught quite a few warnings over the last few weeks from big supermarkets like Sainsbury's

that food prices are likely to shoot back up next year. And there have been lots of comments on social media from people wondering why, if the Bank of England has lowered interest rates,

fixed rate mortgage rates are actually going up. So let's start with that one because people on tracker mortgages or the standard variable rate have seen a reduction. So UK finance, the trade body for a lot of banks, said that a standard borrower on a variable rate mortgage would have seen their payments fall by an average of seventeen pounds and seventeen pence a month.

And an average tracker mortgage would have seen their cost drop by just under thirty pounds a month, following that decision by the Bank of England to cut interest rates by a quarter of a percent. to four point seven five percent. It was the second cut from the MPC, which is the Monetary Policy Committee, the nine people who make that decision.

And the Governor of the Bank of England, Andrew Bailey, said in comments he made after the announcement that the path for rates was a downhill one, which is obviously good news. So in that case, Laura, the question that people have been asking is, why did many fixed rates actually go up the day after that announcement? I know. It feels a bit confusing, doesn't it? We see this big announcement about Bank of England cutting interest rates and we expect to immediately

see that on our mortgage. But there's a few reasons why lenders, including Virgin Money, Halifax, Coventry Building Society, increased rates by the same amount the day after the announcement. So the first thing is that lenders aren't directly linked to the base rate, so they're tied to what's called swap rates, which is when a lender loans money to us for a fixed period of time. Swap rates are the interest that they pay those financial institutions to secure those funds.

So they're based on what the market thinks interest rates will do for that period of time that they're loaning the money, not just where interest rates are right now. The other thing that lenders are considering is demand. So if they get lots of applications for a product, then they'll probably choose to increase interest rates to slow that flow of money so they're not inundated with people wanting mortgages from. And in September the Bank of England said that mortgage approvals reach

the highest point since August 2022. And so demand has been really high. And that's because lots of people have been waiting to buy or remortgage until interest rates started to come down. So once we saw that first cut from the Bank of England. that sparked a lot of people to get back on to their home moving or home buying plans. Um and so what we've seen there is that real surge in demand and and mortgage companies are feeling that.

The other thing to factor in is that since August a few things have changed. Um The big one is the government's budget has been announced since then and the Potential fallout of that and implications of that have now been factored in. And because the government said it's going to borrow more money, the cost of borrowing that money has gone up a bit. And that's because there's some questions about how it might be spent. And of course, when you borrow money, there's a bit more to pay back.

And because of that, those lending the money want a bit more in order to lend it. So it's kind of like an insurance premium for those that are lending the money. And in addition to that, the elevated cost of government debt, there's also the forecast by the Bank of England that inflation is going to be slightly higher for longer. And as we've said before, interest rates are the lever that the bank pulls.

to cool inflation and keep it down to its two percent target. That was a lot there, Danny, but do you think do you think that makes sense? It was a lot, but I think a lot of people are going to um get it, although it is counterintuitive, as you say, when the Bank of England's decreasing interest rates and some mortgage rates aren't coming down. And something else, which is also

confusing is that we're talking about inflation again and a potential increase in inflation. Now, some of that people have been talking about it, analysts and journal types. is priced in. So we know the energy price cap rose a bit in October and it's set to rise a bit more in January. But there are a couple of other things that were announced in the budget that have changed things. And that is why markets are now not expecting an additional rate cut in December from the Bank of England.

And they're only expecting three and not four cuts next year. And that's why fixed rates have gone up a bit, because money markets are having to readjust their expectations. Now I know most of us, and I'm sure you as well, Laura, and I know I am, are just

so fed up of price hikes. We thought we'd seen the last of them. You know, we heard that inflation was coming down. The last month inflation numbers was one point seven percent. Everyone's doing a bit of a jig, thinking, okay, finally wages are keeping up with inflation. the cost of living should become easier to deal with. But, unfortunately, That is not looking like it's going to be the story for long because we've just had the latest modelling from the Bank of England and it expects that.

inflation over um the period of the government is going to be slightly higher than it would have been before the budget and it could actually even be higher still If some of the price increases from the national insurance increase Is passed on by a lot of retailers in particular. And we've certainly heard from a number of businesses, including Sainsbury's and Marks and Spencer's and Weatherspoons.

that that is just going to happen because it's too much money for them to suddenly find out of the blue, in addition with the increase to the national living wage. So that's incredibly cheery, right? And we can't be sure what it's gonna look like. I mean, looking at the numbers, that massive double digit inflation increase that we saw in twenty twenty two

it it's unlikely to be quite to that level. And, you know, a lot of the numbers I've seen, you know, maybe three percent, four percent, but the bank just doesn't know and retailers don't know and we don't know. I mean Trying to predict the path of inflation accurately is a bit like trying to persuade my teenage daughter to put her dirty clothes in the wash bin. It is an absolute no hoper.

And just in case you were confused enough, there's another X factor in all of this, and that comes in the shape of Donald Trump. Yes, we spoke on the last episode about what a female US president could mean for gender equality and it seems it wasn't to be yet. But the one thing we all do need to think about, like you mentioned, Danny, is what Donald Trump has made very clear, which is that he loves tariffs. So this effectively is asking foreign companies

To pay a tax if they want to sell goods in the US. And it's a way for Trump to make US companies appear more attractive or at least their pricing. History tells us that tariffs from one country force other countries to react and implement their own tariffs, and it can end up in a messy trade war with all of us paying more for that.

That's not really what we want, might you say. So though it's not an issue that's unique to women by any stretch of the imagination, it is one that we all need to consider when making our long term financial plans. But one plus point in all this is that savings rates have ticked up a bit. So if you do have savings, make sure you're switching that around and getting the best rate that you can. Feels like we're struggling slightly for a bright spot there, Danny, but Let's cling on to that one.

Yeah.

I I like that you found the one bright spot in all of this. I do. Um look, another thing that doesn't just affect women, but does hit women harder, according to a whole slew of research on the subject. it is imposter syndrome. And I know that I have felt this through my entire career. That moment when you walk into a room, maybe you've got to give a presentation or you know, it's a a big work day and you just don't feel confident. Uh you been there?

Yeah, definitely. And I think at various points throughout your career you kind of feel it. And sometimes I think that is based on what's happening in your career and sometimes I think it's based on the kind of support that you've got around you and whether you feel kind of lifted up by those around you. And so I think it's a really tricky thing. I definitely think I don't know whether it's getting older or progressing more in my career. I feel like I'm I find it easier to dismiss that.

I think it's partly also because there's been lots of talk about imposter syndrome. And so it's once you put a name to it and you know that other people are struggling with it, it's a bit easier, I think, to tackle it and overcome it. Whereas before, when it wasn't really spoken about and all of us experienced it separately but didn't talk about it, you kind of worried that it was a thing that you was unique to you. So there's definitely some power in talking about it, isn't there?

I think if you're changing career in midlife, which is something that I did quite recently, um and we had um a podcast with the wobbly middle guys um a couple of podcasts ago talking about this

this very thing, you know, suddenly deciding that you're going to pursue something else. And I certainly felt it when I made that jump. And it it took me a lot to actually make the jump because it seemed so massive and I was so used to doing what I was doing and I'd actually, as you said, reached a level of confidence with that, but maybe imposter syndrome wasn't so prevalent that yeah, switching careers suddenly you know, I was questioning myself every day.

I know, which is not a comfortable place to be, but luckily you're smashing it now, Dani, so it's fine. But finding smart ways to deal with it is something that Zoe Hayden Jones has been working on. And that work is helping hundreds of women push back their inner gremlins and feel more confident about applying for new positions and particularly leadership positions.

She is founder of the online platform Jobs for Women. Zoe works with employers to help them keep and nurture women in the workplace. And she also works with women looking for the next step or a fresh start. She's also a podcaster and draws on her own experiences to help women make those crucial next steps up the career ladder. Zoe, um thanks so much for joining us. Uh before we jump in to today's subject, um as we said in the introduction, you are

A podcast host, you're a champion of workplace diversity and inclusion, and you're also the founder of an organization called Jobs for Women. So let's start with that. What is So jobs for women, um, kind of I always start with this. So it kind of does what it says on the Tim, but we are a multifaceted organization. So we work with organizations. women might consider to work with them.

But also we work with women. So we're a B2B business, work with organizations, and then we are a B2C organization. So we have an incredible community of women. We've got a free membership. And the idea is that we want to empower women with free training, free resources, free well being. So they've g there's yoga, mindfulness, all sorts

um, of resources in there with global experts and coaches. And the idea is that we want to empower women to be their best self. So I believe wholeheartedly that we can't be the best at our job if we're not supporting our wellbeing. And it's really aimed at women whatever stage of career they're at. So if you are mid-career, we have a lot of women that are looking for career transitions that want to try something different. And often which we'll get into, it might be things like confidence.

um up aga they might be up against uh a lack of confidence, so we have training on that. Um so it's it's a multifaceted organization in that we really want to work with women to empower themselves to be the best version of them, but we want to work with companies so that they are creating a workplace. That supports women where they're at and to be as inclusive as possible. And we've worked with some amazing organizations that are doing incredible things. For example,

you know, making shared parental leave policies even better, but they're not really singing about it. So we help them showcase what they're doing. um to to show women that they might not have considered working for an organization, for example a football club, and we help those organizations showcase it a little bit more. What made you start it? How did you spot the gap? That is a great question, Danny. So

I'll go I'll take you back to my old intern days. I feel very old at the moment. Um, but when I was an intern, so my background is TV and um film, PR and marketing, I was an intern back in London. Um I worked for a multinational uh global T V and film company and I was an intern and my manager at the time said, Zoe, can I have a word? And she pulled me into the stairwell, literally into the stairwell, and she just got a promotion.

She'd just been made uh PR manager and she said, look, nobody in your career is going to talk about money. They're not going to talk about salaries because it's not the thing that we do. And I was like, okay, yeah, I know this. My mum and dad have told me this. She said, but I want you to know that I've just made publicity manager and if I was a man, I would have been offered ten thousand pounds more. And it was one of those mic drop moments. It was my first

awakening to the gender pay gap. And I just felt it was so unfair based on her gender that she wasn't getting the salary that she would if she was a man. So I guess you can say the seed was planted. Um I didn't start jobs for women then, but over time I became really interested, did my research. I learned a lot about lack of women in leadership, obviously the gender pay gap. Later on, the gender health gap, the gender pension gap.

And I got to a point where I relocated to Leeds. Um, I left my corporate life behind, which interestingly was when I had a child and I didn't think because of the lack of women in leadership positions, the work life balance and lack thereof, I didn't think I could do that job. So we relocated to Leeds.

And then I thought, Now is the time and I bought the domain for jobs for women and it's just sort of snowballed, as you can imagine, because, you know, having conversations with incredible people like you and that once you create a platform like this, people sort of champion you and say, Yeah, we need to talk about this a little bit more. So the seed was planted years ago, but it's finally starting to happen and it's just been wonderful to see it grow.

So you obviously work with a lot of women and I know different backgrounds, different ages, different stages of their careers, but is there one thing that they sort of all have in common? Yeah, I mean there's lots. I I mentioned a a lack of confidence and this often comes back to to something called imposter syndrome, which I know has been banded around a lot.

Um there's so many articles on imposter syndrome. Some people believe it doesn't exist, other people have various opinions. But I would say it starts with a lack of confidence, which is so multifaceted in its own sort of entity, because If a woman is um lacking confidence, that could be for so many reasons. It could be that she works in a male-dominated industry. She's surrounded by men. She can't see women in leadership positions.

Um and she works in an environment where she's not able to flourish or grow or have the same opportunities or feels heard and that can have a knock-on effect with confidence. Linked to that, I would say it is imposter syndrome. We we've done various surveys with, you know, uh well over seventy eight percent of women agreeing and acknowledging that they have imposter syndrome, which is

It's really frustrating for me at Jobs for Women because oh, the women in our community and as you know, you work with incredible women. Women are incredible at their jobs. They are so talented. We are traditionally the main caregivers, so we're good at juggling, um And it's frustrating that there are women that are f having these feelings of lack of confidence or imposter syndrome.

So I would say that is the main recurring theme. So as a result of that, we've, you know, in our members club, we've got confidence sessions, we've got imposter syndrome sessions, because I am cheerleading women to take a step back and realize that it's not all on them. And there is some inner work that we can do to realise our brilliance and to combat those feelings. But it

also, you know, it's also the responsibility of the organization. So to any women listening, I want you to know that it's not all on you and you can overcome these feelings. So yeah, I would say that's the the main the main sort of feeling in the community. We should say that imposter syndrome also affects men, but it tends to affect women more.

Yes, exactly. And and when I sort of go around and do my talks and on the podcast, I always say that. I'm uh you know, when uh I've done talks in the past and I remember I was it was the I think it was in Bradford and a man came up to me and said, Don't forget about the men and I always say we need the men in the room, we need the male allyship piece, but what I'm talking about today is women. Um but yes, to your point, one hundred percent it does affect

men as well. It's just that it's been sort of labelled as as a woman's as a woman's issue, I guess, which I'm here to sort of dispel that myth. Um and it is frustrating because because when it's labelled as a as a woman's issue, um, women feel like it is their their their issue to deal with. So it is it is really frustrating. Have you ever dealt with it?'Cause I I certainly hands up I have A hundred percent. I in my early career I doubted myself

every single day. And I had to do so much work internally to recognize my worth. And that's what we do in the community. That's what we do with the women that that come to us. It's kinda like You know how amazing you are deep down, but these feelings um are sort of overpowering you. So I had to do loads of inner work on my values, my w my why, my unique selling proposition, so that when those feelings come in. I t literally talk to myself and say, No, Zoe, you've got this.

So I have experienced it and I I also need to admit that I still get it. And when I talk to the women in the community, it's really important that they know that even if they do work on imposter syndrome, it's not just gonna go away overnight because we're human, right? We we have We experience so many emotions day to day that it will come and go, but it's about having the skills to

to sort of fight through those feelings. And you know what? All of my friends, my colleagues, my peers, everyone I speak to, th we have this sort of shared experience of it. So it's kind of like know that you're not alone.

It it's really interesting that you say that y fight through it. It's not overcoming it, it's about, you know, channeling it, coping with it, using it. Have you got sort of tips that you can share with people that are listening? Yes, so the first thing that I would do I would go through a process of just celebrating the wins. So people listening might have heard and this is this is for all genders. This is for everybody. So we go through life, don't we? We

push, push, push, we push forward, we keep going, we're on a treadmill. And often at work or in life we will accomplish something and we'll tick it off the list and it's on to the next So my main advice would be to celebrate the wins, which sounds a bit obvious, doesn't it? But literally have a brag file or something that you keep digitally or in your favorite notebook of when people say, Hey, Danny, that was amazing. What you did there, I'm so impressed. You're amazing. I'm grateful to you.

Because we get that warm feeling, don't we, when we do something well or someone actually says, You are so good at your job or you you really supported me then and then we're just on to the next, onto the treadmill, the cycle of life. But when we actually st yeah, I mean I do it. I've done it all week. We're coming up to half term and I'm about you know, we're dragging ourselves over the finish line to finish. School and work

But we kind of are in this mentality in life where it's onto the next. So pause. Write down those moments so that when you have the moments of doubt, when you think you're not good enough, you're not quite capable to go for that promotion. You can't see yourself as a leader. You're not sure if you can do that career transition and move into, I don't know, finance or tech or whatever it is.

You go back and you remind yourself of your innate worth, your um incredible skills, the experience, your training, the incredible things people have said to you. And it's reminding yourself about that. The other piece of advice um you can do um is really understanding what makes you you. So we are all good at what we do, and there's lots of people that do that work in finance or that work in tech. And it's about understanding what your USP is, your uni

um selling proposition. So it's like, what gets you out of bed in the morning? What lights you up? What sets you apart? So it's like knowing Um, those little things about you so that you can again remind yourself on the days where it creeps in. And like we've said, Danny, we all have those days. We we're human.

But it's on those days, it's instead of succumbing to the feelings of imposter syndrome or low confidence or just thinking that you want to throw the towel in, it's actually going, No, I've got this and these, this is my evidence why. Um and I think also knowing your values and that little bit of extra work, which takes time.

Um, it really helps with that because it just layers that approach of you understanding why you're so good at it. And I would say get your favorite notebook, make yourself a coffee or a hot drink, go somewhere, give yourself some time and just write down why you're so brilliant and what your your purpose and your values are. They would be my top tip. I think for a lot of women doing that is really hard. The writing down your bits that make you special because you don't see it. But the brag file

I love that idea because you're right, it's so easy just to go, Oh, that's a really nice email, delete, but in a file. And then when you're feeling down, yeah, it's like a little hug. It's like, oh, that feels really good. No, if people want to find out more about Jobs for Women, or they want to listen to your podcast, where do they find you?

So we have two podcasts. We've got a podcast for the women in our community, which is called Women Work Wellbeing. And we have got incredible guests. We've had Apprentice winner Rachel Wolford. We've got BBC Sports Presenter. Kate Mason, we've got incredible guests lined up and that is your one-stop shop for weekly tips, guest interviews. There's a little bit of well-being thrown in, a little bit of mindfulness, meditation. So that's for our women.

If you're in an organization and you're really into D and I, you're a champion, you want to create an inclusive workspace, we've got inclusive career conversations. where we are speaking to experts on how we can really make the workplace work for everybody. So this isn't specific to women.

But I'd love um I'd love to welcome new listeners. There um it's available on all podcast players. And then jobs for women. I'd love you to come into the uh the members' club. It's absolutely free. I can send you the link for the show notes. Um Yeah, all women are welcome. It's totally free. And we're always looking for coaches or anyone else that wants to deliver free training. So yeah, you can get into

Zoe, it's been lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you so much, Danny. Great to see you.

So Zoe Hayden joins there and she has already given all of the details of how you can find her. But did she have a confession, Danny? She did indeed, and it is totally related to starting her business. Well, mine is related to jobs for women, and I'm not gonna get into the whole um lack of funding for women starting their own businesses, but mine was

the amount of money I needed to get jobs for women off the ground. So as a a mum, um, you know, mum of two, start decided the seed was planted like I talked about. wanted to start a business and I was sort of shocked at how me how much I needed to do to get this business going. You know, podcast, members club, tech, website. And I found it so incredibly challenging um that each month I think the biggest challenge for me was the the outgoings each month.

compared to the vision. So I had the vision for the business and I found it really difficult with no money coming in that every month. The money was sort of going out the door and I guess I I'd put my hands up that I hadn't really factored it in, I hadn't planned for it. Um and sometimes, you know, some ones I hadn't factored for bigger chunks of money going out. And it's really taught me the the

skill of resilience and the value of resilience to keep going. I got better at strategic budgeting, I got better at planning for where the sales were coming from, learning to prioritize what is adding value in the business. It was a massive learning curve and it continues to be. But I think we need to talk more openly about it because we need more women starting businesses.

And I think if we're really transparent and honest about what we've been through and what we've learned, then we're gonna help more women start even more incredible, incredible businesses. I think she's so right that so much of this stuff should be taught more, there should be so much more awareness around

starting up your own business, how to practically go through it. Because lots of us could be very good at the thing we do, but maybe not so much around the finances of a business or organizing a business or who you need to hire first.

It's a tricky old world and I think more of that being taught in schools and more of those practical kind of business skills would be very useful, wouldn't it? And just like you say about, you know, people talking about imposter syndrome more, I think the fact that More people are now talking about what it takes to start a business and more women are having conversations about how they get

investment. And we've had a couple of podcasts. If you listen back, we've got a whole load of episodes with women that have started businesses or women who are helping find investment for businesses. But I I think it is still For a lot of women it it just seems an insurmountable step. But um Yeah, yeah, it's tricky.

Yeah, you need a lot of confidence to start your own business, I think. A lot of confidence and self belief and a bit of risk taking. Some good parallels there actually with uh starting out investing and and sorting your finances. But I'll save that analogy for another day.

Okay, that is it for this episode. Don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you listen to your pod. And if you want to leave us a review, that would be fab. It helps other people find If you have friends or family you think will be interested, do tell them about us because we want all women to feel confident with their finances, even if you're starting out in your career or you're juggling to balance the budget, a clear head.

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But we've also got some fabulous new tie ups on the way, which we know you're going to love. So keep listening and we will see you next time. Before you go, please remember this podcast is for educational purposes. And the views expressed don't necessarily reflect those of AJ Bell. The podcast isn't telling you if a certain investment is suitable.

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