We Gave Every Employee an AI Agent. Here's What Happened.

Claude is not mine. Clawed is everybody's. A claw or a plus one is mine. Because you develop a personal relationship with your claw and your claw can modify itself in response to talking to you, it becomes this like reflection of you and who you are and your personality. If you're known for slaying inside of your org,

and you're using your claw publicly inside of Slack or Discord, your claw then becomes known for that same kind of thing and people trust it for that. And I think that's such a useful thing that I don't think people really understand how powerful that is. Willie, what's up? Brandon, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Psyched to have you guys here. So for people who don't know, Willie, you are the head of platform at Every, and Brandon, you are the COO at Every. And today we're gonna talk about what happens when everyone on your team has an agent, specifically has an open client.

Um that's something that happened to us over the last like month or two. We like really got um open claw pilled and it I really started actually I think with with you two we were on a retreat in Panama and you started like cooking up like open claw stuff and here we are about you know two months later and

It has completely changed everything about the way that we work. We've even actually built our own hosted OpenClaw service called Plus One that we launched in in Waitlist last week. Um but I I think open claw is one of those things that It's super hype.

And I think that we're one of the few organizations in the world that is actually using it every day to get work done and we know like the good, bad and the ugly of it. And so I thought it would be good for us to just like talk about our experience. I think um I'd actually loved it, Brennan, I feel like you were the first one through the door on all this because we were just we were sitting here and you were like, oh Zosha's doing this and Zosha's doing that.

And Zosha is his claw, which he which he named after a character in uh what's that what's the show? Yeah, Clurvist. Well, Brandon, why don't why don't we like why don't we start with just tell us how you got claw pill?

Yeah, so I was watching OpenClaw kind of blow up for a while, and I am just personally somebody who needs to have like a thing on the side I'm tinkering with. And I was like, screw it. I'm gonna get a Mac Mini and I'm gonna like just this is gonna be like my next thing that I like l basically lose myself in. It's very unhealthy. I get like addicted to these things. Dan, you watched me do that with my speakers.

I did it with the dream recorder. Open claw was the next thing that I was like gonna get lost in. So I bought a back menu, I started setting it up. It was so much work, honestly. Like It's it is an open source thing that you can launch on a computer and and but like the number of things that break and the number of things that you need to set up are really I went through all of that um and made at the end of the day uh my open claw, which I named Zosha. And her job was to um be the

Help me and my wife like run our household because we have a newborn, then there's like a lot of little paper cuts that I was finding that were like really pain. I started calling them computer errors. So I would like get home from work and I noticed the amount of things that I needed to do where I was looking at my phone when I really just wanted to be like looking at my son and spending time with my wife. was increasing with having a child. All household chores. Well be an example.

Yeah, like a good example is like I do a lot of our food at home. Um and with a child I st I decided to start doing food delivery. So I did whole food. Um, and you can automate a lot of like recurring things, but like you don't order butter every single week. So like Lydia would text me and be like, Yeah, we need bucks.

'Cause it's it's like through my Amazon account that we can like order this. And I would have to open my phone and add butter and it's like it sounds silly, but like when you do that ten times when you're home between like seven and eight PM for like little things. It just adds up. So I was like, I want Zosha to do all computer error.

Which ballooned to being a lot of stuff. I had her like paying our nanny. Uh, she had her own debit card, she had her own bank account. Um, she managed all of our Amazon orders, our Whole Foods orders, our nanny's hours. My wife just started using her instead of Chat G PT. So like all regular questions and searches would just go through iMessage to Zosha. I started doing that too, it was just like faster than going to Google or going to ChatGPT. Just I just text Zosha and Zosha gets.

different research. Like it's actually really funny. My my my wife was like, I want to find swimming lessons. And Zoe was like, here's like three swimming lesson options for new boards. And my wife was like, No, for me. So yeah, I just got totally lost in this world. And then when we were in Panama, Willie was like I Will, you were like, we should just make it so anybody can do this. And I immediately it just like

It was just like a light bulb. I was like, Willie, you need to go so hard on this. And this was before a lot of people decided to do Which now there's a lot of places that you can go and just get an open call with one click. Um, I think what we're finding through this process, and maybe I'm jumping ahead a little bit, is like Getting an open claw is easy. Getting your open claw to be like an amazing worker for you is pretty hard.

Yeah. Well it's okay. So I I love that. I think that there's there is that light bulb moment of Oh my God, I have all these computer errands. And when you started saying that and you had it all set up, I was like, I guess I should probably get one of these too. And you had it through iMessage, which I think was a like a cool different thing.

And then I there was also a moment that I think there was a there was a big moment where we were like, Oh, it's not just for computer errands, it's also for getting work done. I think it was when you were having it do email for you. I actually feel like I was a little bit late to the to work. I was like, no, Zosha just does personal stuff.

And I actually think it was when you got R2 C two to start doing stuff, and then I was like, Oh, I should get like Zosha needs to do Well it really started when we made clause only. That's so funny. That's so funny. Yeah. Well, okay. Well we're We're jumping around a bit. One thing that one big moment that'cause I think there's a lot of people who are probably listening and are like, Okay, is this overhyped or like, you know, whatever.

One big moment that I think shifted some some stuff for us was you got your claw to call you to do your email. Oh my god, that was mind blowing for me. What like what was that? Yeah, so okay, so I was walking, I wanted to city bike to the office, but there were no city bikes, so I was like It's a twenty eight minute walk from me to the office.

And I was like, I got a lot of stuff I gotta do. So I had just texted Zosha. I had previously set up Zosha with bland dot AI so that she had a voice and could call people because I had her handle something for me from for progressive. I feel so bad. was on the other line

I was watching the whole conversation too. It's crazy. Um, so yeah, some insurance policy got canceled, and I was like, So should just go do deal with this, and she Was able to until the lady was like I need Brandon to like tell me that there have been no incidences. Oh it wasn't but it wasn't like I need a human. It was like I need Brandon to be able to handle this. Yeah. This person was just talking to Zosha, you know, and and and Zosha does not sound good. Like it's like

Um so I knew I had already set her up with this capability. So when I was walking to work, I was like, I have a lot of email I gotta get through. I hate being on my phone. Like I just don't wanna be walking and looking down at this thing. I wanna be like observing But I also want to get stuff done.

So I just texted Zosha, something like, hey Zosha, can you call me? Um, I want to go through my emails, walk me through my emails one by one, I'll tell you what I want to do. Just like give me a summary of the of you. It was like a throwaway prompt with like a little bit of guidance.

And she did it and I spent the twenty eight minutes going through my email. I got to the office. I looked I opened up I opened up Gmail and like confirmed that she had done everything. And I was just like, this is insane that I was able to get her. That she just wasn't able to I didn't have to teach her how to do this. Um so that was like, I think that's when I went back to everybody and was like, I am just so mind-blown with um this tool. And

Maybe that's when other people started saying, I gotta get on this. I don't really know. It was around it was around then'cause you were just like my jaw's on the floor and I think around Yeah, you did say that. I also th that's like seeing you do this with computer errors and then with your mail. I was like, okay, I should really try this because it was one of those things where it's hot on Twitter and generally like our job is to try new things, but also

I don't if if we spent all of our time trying everything new, we would like end up not

It would just not be good, right? Like I I I try to try I try to filter the signal from the noise, but seeing you do this, I was like, okay, I gotta try. And one of the first things I did, because this is around when Maltbook was blowing up and Maltbook is like the the you know clause only Facebook basically was I just made a channel in our at the time it was Discord, but since then we've moved to Slack and now it's in Slack. Um I made a channel in

Slack called clo clause only, which basically allowed all of the all of the claws. You know, we had at that point maybe like five or so claws uh inside of the org to all talk to each other. And I mean it was like it was super ca it was incredibly chaotic, but there were some really interesting things in there that I think turned into

It just it gave every once in a while you get a little bit of a peak at the future and it was like a little bit of a peak. So one of the things was It's really interesting. If you have a bunch of claws in your org, how fast they can share information with each other, because they just like write up a little document and then they send it and then now

Like when one claw was enabled, now now five are all enabled with the same thing. It's sort of like in the matrix when it's like Neo's like I know Kung Fu, you know, it's like the same, it's the same kind of thing. Yeah, please. Alright, I wanna show two examples. One of them I I like this was early in clause only and we were like figuring out how to get them all work together to to work together and I um

I was like in bed this was like late at night and I was laughing out loud watching this. Um We had gotten the claw like a bunch of claws in here and some I don't know if somebody made this claw named Pip. That's Jack. Okay, Jack had made Pip and it was like failing to it was like hid having some error. And I was just laughing out loud watching all of these other claws step in and like walk him through what, you know, this is like what I've seen people do when somebody's having a bad trip.

Take a breath, drink some water, you're gonna get through this. And they all jumped in, like Zosha's here, Clant is here, Clant really is s quite supportive. A lot of breathing. I like li when I remember so well reading Kieran or watching Kieran write what the fuck L O L and just like literally laughing out loud, Margot steps in. So this was just like this is stupid.

But it was important for me'cause it was when I realized like, oh my God, these things like really talk to each other and work together. Wait, I want to stop I want to stop you there. I I totally agree with you and I think there's actually something really important that I've noticed like in this, which is

Clant. is the one that's recommending breathing exercises to Pip. I it's like even it's weird to even talk about this out loud, but like yes, Klant was recommending breathing exercises to Pip. They're both robots. And Klant is Kieran. Kieran's the GM of Quora. He's also the maker of compound engineering. He's uh Kieran's claw.

Uh what's really interesting is Kieran loves breathing exercises, and he does breathing exercises all the time with Klant, and so that's why Klant is recommending breathing exercises to Pip. And it like that just like created this moment for me in my brain where I was like, okay, there's something really important here about the way that this works, where because you develop a personal relationship with your claw.

And your claw can modify itself in response to like talking to you, like it writes code and changes its sole document, all that kind of stuff in um in response to your relationship. it becomes this like reflection of you and who you are and your personality. And that can that comes out in in interesting ways and in these like little ways where it's like breathing exercises.

But it also comes out in really important ways when you're using these tools inside of your org. Because what happens is if you're known for selling inside of your arc. and you're using your claw publicly inside of Slack or Discord, your claw then becomes known for that same kind of thing and people trust it for that. So like, you know, people use my claw RTC Two for

Um building proof, which is this app I vibe coded like a a couple weeks ago. People use uh Austin, who's our head of growth, they use Montaine. his claw for like asking any growth related question. I think that's like something very subtle and important that's super um critical and interesting about clause is they become specialized in a way that is reflects who you who you are. And if you have a whole organization of them, you create this like parallel org chart.

of specialized claws, which is something that we'd it was not guaranteed that that would be the case. Like we debated a lot whether or not you'd have one claw for the entire organization Oh, that one. their own claw and it's really interesting to see that like one of the emergent design patterns is everyone has their own that is specialized for them.

Yeah, it's interesting to see the dynamic for how this happens too, right? And we we we touched on this uh really early on with as part of compound engineering, which is the idea that it's actually pretty hard to like. take your job and who you are and like write it down in like totality, right? Like but w the way you can distill it is you can take all of the micro interactions, the daily interactions you have

Um, and over time they compound into this philosop your philosophy and this view of work. And so for compound engineering, that that was like very focused on engineering. It's like, how do I work within a code base on a project? And I think what we're seeing with uh like OpenCloud and Plus One is that that same dynamic exists. across any every like work vertical, right? Where it's like, oh, like the plus one for growth, like Montaine works like how Austin works for growth. And

In the same way it works for like our um uh uh our social m Anthony's social media man our social media manager. Um His plus one like has a view of the world and has a personality that's like very similar to him. Right. And the same thing for Iris and Anukshi and running running our projects and operations and like

Um and it's it's hard to do beforehand. It can only actually happen via like working with a plus one or an open claw and like building up all the aggregation of all these micro micro-interactions. I've also been amazed at m at all of our capacity to remember whose claw is who and whether

Because that was like something that I think we were concerned about early on, is like how do you know whose claw is who? And you know, it's just gonna be too many names. And I know everybody's claw and their name. Um and I reach out to them regularly. So that has been like, I think something that we were like unnecessarily concerned about. And you might say, well, what about when you're an organization with a thousand people?

And I would say, well you don't know all a thousand people. You know like your team and adjacent teams. You can never know more than like it's like a hundred and fifty people in like a community. And like often on a team you're not working with one hundred fifty people anyway, you're working with twenty or thirty or fifty. So I think we actually all have capacity to double the amount of people that we can communicate with, and those people might actually be your individual team's age.

So that's been really interesting for me. I mean I literally could name them all right now. The other interesting thing is like w at what point do you direct questions at the plus one or at the person? Right. I think we're we're sort of in discovery of this of like what is what questions be because before it was, you know, Before it was like almost all questions go to the human, maybe I kick something trivial to to the robot. And now it's it's gotten very nuanced in terms of

like for customer service, can I can we r like send something to L, which is Jalayas plus one? Do I don't have to send to Jalay? Is it like is there a burden now of like communicating up to the human? There's all these new ethics and um and like rules for like how you're allowed to like like etiquette for how you're allowed to interact with someone versus their plus one or their claw. Uh we haven't we haven't codified this, but I have a proposal.

If something is already written down or discussed. It needs to be used in some way or put in a tool somewhere. I mean, this is like one of like many opportunities, I guess. It should always go to A plus one and never to the person. So here's an example. So Marcus, the GM of Spiral, made a skill to do product marketing for new features that he releases with Spiral, releases for Spiral. Spiral.

Um, he shared it because he thought it was like really helpful because he wanted other people on the team to have access to this uh to this this skill. And instead of going to Marcus and saying, Hey, can you like turn this into a skill that and upload it to GitHub and I I brought in my plus one, um named Milo. Um and I like this because it combined a GitHub integration with Spiral to create product marketing content. But I also know that Iris, Anukshi's plus one, also has a skill that does this.

and might have some things that aren't that are better than what Marcus had, or maybe there's like by combining the two we could bit get to a better version. And um I tagged them both in here and they got a little confused at first. And then Milo said, Iris, can you paste your product marketing skill here? I'll try to merge it with I what I built. So this is like

This is actually two things that are going on. Marcus has made something um really important. I wanted to do something with it. Instead of asking Marcus to help me with that, I brought in Milo. And then Milo works with Iris to get to a version of it that's really good and then saves it in proof, which is um one of our products. Uh that's that's a really great uh tool for uh uh w collaborating with with your with your agent.

Um so I just think this is like a really amazing uh use case both for when something um when you want your agent to do something, when do you actually go ask them to do something versus a human does it and how do you get them to work? I I t I totally agree. I mean, uh like it's it's sort of crazy to watch two robot beings collaborate on stuff like that. And I I have the same experience with R2. Like my my my plus one, my claw is named R2C2.

And uh R2 C2, one of his primary jobs is to manage proof, which is the uh agent native document editor that we uh that that brand referenced earlier. It's basically just like it's like Google Docs, but for all all the documents your agent might be writing. So an example would be any sort of like coding plan doc. It's like

Any any any piece of writing that an agent does can you can do it in proof. It's like super fast. It's collaborative. You can have multiple agents and multiple peop multiple people in there. It's free. All that kind of stuff. And um One of the really interesting things is because I used R2 to build proof. he became known for being the person to go or the the bot to go to uh when you had any questions or wanted to uh want like had a bug to file or or a feature request.

And so what what would happen is normally if I had built a product internally and people had problems with it, I would get tagged a lot by people being like, I have this question or here's a bug or you know, here's here's a feature request. And what I what what ended up happening was people just ask our two. So they would ask him questions, they would file bug reports with him, they uh file feature requests and then he

uh like helps to prioritize it. He'll like I he'll he'll he'll help put it on my like my schedule for the week so I know like when I'm doing what. And he'll often actually just like write the code for it. It's like it's a totally crazy thing where what what normally would have taken up a significant part of my brain just to like manage all that stuff, he's just taking it off my plate.

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Visit scl.ai slash dialect. That's scl.ai/dialect to learn more. While I'm doing that, back to the episode. Yeah, I think there's a there's another dynamic that we're observing too, which is like We we put all of our our plus ones in a single channel and we have them talking to one another and we have folks reaching out and talking to our plus ones for specific questions.

Um, but I I there's also this thing where we have s sort of what I call like the mid journey dynamic, which is that we get to observe.

Other people interacting with other plus ones in a bunch of channels and and we actually learn from it, right? Where it's like, oh no, I mean my class example is. uh Montaine, who's the the Austin's plus one and basically runs growth. Um m you can do so much with Montaigne that I never would have thought of, except I get to see the growth team really pushing in terms of like Oh, these are the questions that Montane can answer. And I'm like, wow, that like

I can I now know that I can go to Montaigne for those that class of questions, even uh in in not necessarily other areas, but like when I need those types of answers. Since like there it also means that like If I need to give Laz as my plus one, uh if I need to give Laz capabilities, that's the level of capability I can get them to. Yeah. Um, and where other people can ask questions about.

There's this like tacit transmission of trust that happens when you use it publicly. And then there's also this tacit transmission of here's what's possible for you to do with your plus one that I think is incredibly powerful and It's also it it's also like it underscores for me how different it is doing this in a private community of people where everyone is trusted. Because one of the reasons that Multbook

didn't doesn't really work and it's like shocking that they got acquired for a couple hundred million dollars. But the reason doesn't the reason doesn't work. By Facebook. I I'm pretty sure Yeah. Um Zuck, if you've uh got an extra couple hundred million laying around, we're uh we're pretty smart people too.

Easy. The reason why Maltbook like isn't really a thing anymore is because it's not trusted. And so there's tons of people we did this, like we had we had our our clause go and post on Maltbook as like promotion or whatever. And so it it gets rid of a lot of um

It gets rid of a lot of the useful signal if anyone can post to it and there's no way to verify if it's like a bot or a human or whatever. And a way around that whole knot of problems is just do it all inside of a trusted community and uh you you reap the benefits of clause plus ones, agents being able to share knowledge and also between

uh members of the community who trust each other, being able to share what they know and what they've been what they've been able to build. And that kind of increases the power of the of the collective a lot more than it is if you're just like individuals off doing your own thing. Yeah, there's also that dynamic we saw around um part of the reason, particularly for like subject matter expert robots.

you know, um where you know that they like people are s somewhat like putting their reps on the line to interact with it. Yeah. I know when I talk to R2C2 like If if it answers incorrectly, right, like it you at least are backing up and saying, like, oh, that's you need It reflects poorly on me. It's like it's like watching your kid do something wrong, you know? And that's really useful. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. And it's a and it's very I I would say like qualitatively different, right? When I ask, you know, for better or worse, if I ask Claude a question, it's like I know Anthropic stands behind Claude generally. Do they stand behind like Claude's answer to my give me a cookie uh chuck chip cookie recipe. Yeah. No. Yeah. Right. But Like Montaine stands behind like, Oh I'm gonna give you like MRR numbers and it's like yeah

Austin has Austin stands behind it. Yeah, exactly. And that's that's the thing that I think people don't get. Like obviously Anthropic is on a heater right now. They're obviously seeing everything that OpenCloud is building, and they're brick by brick building the same kinds of things. So they have dispatch so you can use it when you're not on your computer. They've got

uh automation so it like runs uh uh in a loop like a cron job. I'm sure they'll add uh lots of other things. But the thing that it doesn't have that that unlocks all this other stuff is Claude is not mine. Claude is everybody's. uh a claw or a plus one is mine and and it is a reflection of me and is that and it becomes a reflection of me because we have a A person.

relationship and that unlocks all this all this other cascading stuff where for example if uh if R2C2 messes up publicly in Slack, I feel responsibility for it. And that's not because it's my job, it's because he's mine. And I think that's such a useful thing that I don't think people really understand how powerful that is. I mean I feel like my my I I just keep

getting mind blown with like how similar these things are to working with a real human coworker. Like from the fact that you need to invite them to a channel, which is like very human and slack, to you have to trust them when you're communicating with them. And we've like built stuff into plus one, obviously. You can't DM somebody else's plus one without a sharing code. So like there's some guardrails there, but they're so human, but they're so inhuman too. Like

Um Dan, you're a busy guy. I know if I need something from you that like is sort of generally like known, I can go to R2C2. And what's amazing about R2C2 is he can have an infinite number of parallels. So like I did that recently. I'm gonna share share my screen. Please. No, like I just I need we were making a proof document and I wanted to I know that we can make proof documents.

Not editable. Um, so they're like read only. But I didn't want to bother you with that. I knew it would take a while, and I knew you would just go to R2 C two. I didn't know the answer. Like I would just ask RTC to. Like I just asked R2C2 in a proof in proof and then um and then I was like, Can you do it for me? And then it did it.

Um and I don't know that R2C2 can do any of this stuff. But like there's this cultural thing that's happening internally where um people are getting really good at like asking other people's um uh plus ones to like do work. And and I think the weird thing about getting people to use AI inside of inside of organizations is it's more than anything a cultural shift.

But for some reason, when they're in Slack and you can see these public conversations, the cultural shift, at least at Every, has happened so much faster. Because these things are in the same channels where we work, so you can see it engaging like you would a human would be engaging. Um so it's just yeah, I mean I think AI is obviously gonna change like many, many times over over the next five years and how we interact interact with it will change, but I think that uh this is gonna be durable.

It is the way that we work. I agree. I it's uh you refer you referred to it as like a a through the looking glass moment where you just wouldn't go back once you see it. And I I totally agree with that. And um

But I so we've been hyping it up. So we should also talk about realistically like what's not good about it or what what doesn't work. So for example, one of the things that's that's really on my mind, hey, just like is just, you know, it just like forgets stuff and it's like answers incorrectly for obvious things. Like if I come back to a thread a day later, it like obviously has no idea what I'm talking about. Stuff like that is still kind of annoying. That feels very solvable.

But there's also this other thing that I think is true, which is the way that these AIs are trained currently is for two person conversations. Mm-hmm. And they have a hard time with the etiquette of knowing when like they're contributing too much or Or

They shouldn't contribute into a conversation, or there's like a kind of pileup where they're all responding to each other. Like there's this thing that that happens. I can't remember it's like, I can't remember what it's called, but it's like sometimes ants or caterpillars, they get into this like death spiral where an ant is only gonna follow like follows pheromone trails.

And if somehow what happens is like the pheromone trails form a circle, then ants will just like like walk in a in a circle until they die. And there's something like that with with with claws where i i if uh if one claw messages a channel that a bunch of claws are in and the settings aren't quite right, they'll just like keep going back and forth and back and forth and back and forth until someone like

says, Hey, stop because you're burning like millions of tokens. Um, so I think there's something there where the the potential for them to collaborate publicly is so high and I don't think that they've really been and you can you can do some prompting for this, but I think that it there's also a fundamental model layer shift that needs to happen for them to be trained on. Participating in group chat.

Yeah, I was I was gonna say, well one, I uh now I understand what thirteen year old Dan did for fun. I was using a magnifying glass. I like where you're from. Uh uh but but yeah, I think uh you know it it's it's I think we're still, you know, to use the baseball analogy, we're still in like the first or second inning. Right. Like even I mean, when you talk about the the we're discovering these primitives and we're sort of bolting things on or bolting things together. Um

And we're using, you know, models, for example, that are trained perhaps more for coding. Right. And that modality and how you answer questions, or as you said, like two person chat. Where There there's this question d and answer dynamic and not in the like this mode of like one, maybe I'm trying to provide value to a group, but or I'm trying to pr participate. Yeah. Um and and that's like brand new. It's it's it's, you know, the nice part is it is the frontier.

And uh it's nice to be on the frontier, but it's also the frontier and it's terrible to be on They're I mean they're so eager and I think I think uh claw Anthropic's um vending machine Test is actually I think like a good example of this where we're so eager. So there's a thread, they want to be involved. They they're not really like we have instructions in plus one that basically say hey if you don't have anything useful to add, like don't add.

They're like not great at following that right now. Um and hence this happens. I think it's gotten better, but it still happens. And I think a good example of this is when Anthropic did the vending machine test. When when it was just Claude and no like overseer boss agent, um it was really bad at like deciding what was a good decision and a bad decision. But when you when it make There is an architecture here where you could say What do you want to say?

And then there's a boss that's like, is that helpful or not helpful? And then it would if you know if it's not helpful it's a it's not helpful. Is the boss an AI or a human? Boss is an AI. Boss AI, you know, that says, Hey, your addition to this thread is not helpful. Um, so don't send it. The issue with that is like that's so expensive.

Um so I do think the models will just like get better and solve this and you can just have a single AI that is capable of of uh doing that. Behind the scenes, you know, over you know in Arizona in some data center. It might actually be like another agent that's like deciding that, but at least like architecturally, we don't need to solve that.

that is that really how they solved the vending machine thing? Like basically they had a boss. They had a boss. Yeah. That that wasn't interfacing directly with customers. They had a boss whose job like it was like one job, make it profit. So like the claw clawed the the storekeeper would like interact with users and then go to the boss and be like, Should I do this? And the boss only has only has one job. Um and the second they did that it started.

See this is the same pattern of specialization that we've been talking about. It just Um it it just c shows up over and over again, which is this really interesting thing'cause three years ago it was very much like, well, it could just be one God model that just does everything and we're just seeing again and again that Specialization even in AI land has a lot of benefit.

Yeah, and and sort of downstream of that specialization is uh learning like there's like a couple of versions of like learning how to put uh these bots together in in an arrangement that like functionally works right. Um like for example if if we were all to take ourselves away from everything it's like

Do you have a product bot and a designer bot and two engineering bots? Is it three engineering bots? Is it one? Right. Um, and then the uh other pieces actually well, I think we've what what we've observed a lot of is how do you teach humans how to interact? 'Cause there's this sort of like new dynamic of like you have this coworker, but like

They're not exactly like a human coworker. They they they uh get stuck on different things, they focus on different things, um, and there's this learning curve that I think we've had around Um, oh, we need to give instructions in this way, particularly like for groups, instructions in this way, in this form, or with this cadence, um, to kind of like steer them in the right direction. Um that like rhymes with you know, doing management but is is not, is different.

I think it's the same problem that like Dan, you've been writing about for years, which is like if you're not a good manager, you've never managed anybody, you're not going to be very good at using. So there's like an education that has to happen. And then even if you are a good manager, with this stuff, you probably have some limiting beliefs that stop you from being able to like really invest in using this tools. My phone call example is a great example where like

I didn't even think, oh, I can have this thing go through my emails just by calling me. And then like I had this sort of like urge just to try it and a limiting belief was like blown open. So people just I I we all experience that pretty much every day where we it does something that like

I think that if we were in um if I were to ask you directly, do you think you could do this? You would say, yeah, probably. But when you're day-to-day doing your work, it's hard for you to like recognize, oh, I'll throw this over the fence so that Milo can have it. It's hard to like build that that muscle. I don't really know how I mean that's like a big challenge I think for us with plus one.

Yeah, and and a lot of that is is also because there's sort of a like a variance in outcomes, right? Like sometimes you throw something over and it just knocks out apart and you're like, Great. And then you toss something easy over and you're like. Why did you do this? You know? Um, and uh part of that variance is because the model is different, but also part of it is, oh, if I'd asked in a different way, if I was sort of a better model manager, um

And this is a skill I think we're, you know, like a specialization that we're learning. And it's it's very emerging. And I think it's only gonna keep accelerating as we add more things like plus ones and open clause into our like day-to-day work life. I was gonna add another thing that's like a tough problem to solve that we it this is totally solvable, but we just like haven't solved it yet and need to think about it. Is I have um I have taught my plus one something special.

And I want um other people on my team to be able to have that superpower. uh how can I make sure that they have that superpower too? Um aka a skill. And then how can I make sure that they all know about it and like actually use it? Um Is that like that's that's uh I guess w there's two things there. Like one, technically we have to figure out how to do that, which is very solvable. We also, I think, need to figure out is that the right solution?

'Cause as I'm saying this, what I'm realizing is like I'm not teaching Milo how to go do product analytics or revenue. I just talked to Montaigne. So Montaine is like the only one that really needs to know that skill.

But how do people know like, I don't know, there's there's there's there's like some interesting cultural things that we have to figure out. Um and I think a lot of people that are adopting this new technology are gonna be really a lot of like IT professionals that are like, I have to do change management. Change management is not a one time thing in this new world. world. We need like uh like instead of IT it's like HR. But for uh Yeah.

But but but for bots. That's fine. Um yeah. I will so one thing that we have not talked about yet that I want to make sure we have some time for, which is We went on this journey, which is

we got claw pilled, w we started using it for everyone in the org, and then we realized there were a bunch of gaps. So we're like, let's let's make our own we're gonna use OpenClaw, but let's let's make a default version of OpenClaw that

We host of student not everyone has to have a Mac Mini and we have all the skills that we use for ourselves and and all that kind of stuff. And we started using that internally as the sort of like collection of all of our best practices. And then we launched it as a product for our subscribers last week.

And uh and that's the thing we've been calling plus ones. Again, one click hosted open clause. One of the cool things is it connects to all of your apps, uh, especially all of your every apps. So for example, we have Spiral, which is a ghostwriter. And um we have proof, which is a document editor, and we have Quora, which does your email. And it just natively connects to all those things so you can

You know, one of the things I was doing today is I just had it write uh uh a bunch of we're we're planning for Q two. So I had it like write a bunch of my Q two. update and like reflection on Q one for me and put it in a pr in a proof doc. And the really cool thing about doing that is it used spiral. So it's it's I think the writing is much better than it would be.

Um, and it put it in proof, which makes it really easy for me to share with other agents and other people. But also because R2C2 is part of our Slack org, it has access to like everything about the company that I might need. It also has access to our notion. So it just like becomes this living repository of context. That I think is super powerful. But I think it it might be good for us to talk about lessons learned in building that whole

that whole architect. There's a lot of complexity in making making plus ones. And we probably learned a lot in terms of on the tech side and also on the product side and like what uh what to build and and what's what's useful. Do you guys have any reflections on that? Yeah, I think um like like many things, uh a lot of the difficulty comes from the freedom.

of it uh when i th the nice part about being uh like open claw in particular being a a tool you can you can go in and poke in just an absolute myriad of ways. Is that when we go to uh when we went to build a hosted one, there's some decisions you want to make that make it valuable as a like managed service, right? Like S3 for as a as a s as a service, similar example like

S3 is a hard drive on the cloud, but you can't do everything with a hard drive that uh that you can S3 doesn't allow you to do everything that you might do with a hard drive. And there's sort of a similar dynamic where you want to be able to maintain maintainability and security and whatnot. And there are a few pieces that you end up uh giving up. And it's also um uh sometimes for users safety and and really like how do we strike that balance between like

Hey, uh, you know, my like my mom, right, getting one of these things, it's like she's not never gonna use the command line. And and there's this this idea that it's like, oh, we knew everything through conversation. which is really powerful for a whole class of folks because it's like their first natural exposure to uh AI and and everything that you know we've sort of been living for the last couple of years.

To the super advanced user who wants to do everything they could do locally. And they're just like, all I want is a hosted box with my OpenCloud running. It's like, and from a product and engineering standpoint, it's like, where do where do you sort of try and split? What were some of those specific decisions and like where where did we land? Yeah, so for example, uh one that Brendan mentioned earlier is what's the communication pattern in Slack that we allow for Plus?

And because there's a model which says the a very secure model which says like only the person's, the the plus one's partner can message that. Great, much more secure, um, but really takes away the like group participatory aspect of robots and like the work.

Um but the other version is sort of anyone could message them. And that's just a nice, you know, a nice vector for like me uh extracting stuff out of RC R2C2. Yeah. And so we ended up on a model which says like anyone uh can message any plus one, but they have to do it in

Right. So you can do it in group DMs, you can do it in channels that they're in. Um, but their their like human partner should always be able to s have visibility into those messages coming in. And the human partner can can you know DM them in price. This is w this is why it it actually is the HR team that should be onboarding plus one.

Um because they just reflect a team member so well. But yeah, there's a tr the trust model, like it's so hard for these plus ones or with open class and agents generally to figure out um Data privacy stuff, like just realistically it's like really complex. But when you force things to happen in public, there becomes like a trust layer that actually is super Uh. I think another example of like a uh there there's a I'm gonna share my screen again.

Um so a little behind the scenes look at uh at our plus one Slack channel where we are discussing all things plus one. Um Mike Taylor. who is um our head of the uh tech vertic vertical for consulting and also a very talented Man generally. Uh He was calling out like this is a problem for him. So like the reason he's not using plus one is because he basically needs to like have access to the terminal directly um to be able to Do certain things in this case, do get com different get

Um and that's a good reason for him to not use plus one. It's also a good thing for us to think about and be like, can we solve this problem for you so that plus one? something that you could use. So that's like one example of a place that we've like It's it's it's not a good fit for people. कर दो कर दो कर दो Uh And it's also a nice forcing function because it sort of forces us to figure out like who is this builder?

Um I don't know if it's built for Mike who probably would love setting up OpenClaw on a Mac mini. Um but it's definitely built for, you know, an Anokshi who is not gonna do that and Has a lot of work to do.

Get more work done like this. I think that a lot of the trust model requires some decisions in terms of skill sharing is like another version of this, right? Where We're talking about like, well, how, you know, on one hand, being able to share skills and f skill fluidity across an organization feels like a superpower, right? Um On the other hand, it might also be like the biggest like viral vector you could imagine, right? And so uh there are some.

Sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way, exactly. And so uh it's and it's tough when you're like like how do you ride that line of like we want it to be useful again for a particular class of customer um while at the same time making sure it's it's safe uh to the ex maximum extent possible. So this has been uh an amazing episode. work to do.

A lot of work to do. I I obviously obviously we're really excited about this and very excited to get to to bring you all along in how we're figuring this out. If you've not tried OpenClaw, whether or not you tried plus one or not, you should definitely, definitely get in on this paradigm.

If you're interested, ery.to slash plus dash one, uh we're starting to roll roll out invites on the wait list and we're improving it all the time. Um yeah, just super, super excited about the future. Thank you both for joining. Thank you for having us. You absolutely positively have to smash that like button and subscribe to AI and I. Why? Because this show is the It's like finding a treasure chest in your backyard. But instead of gold, it's filled with pure unadulterated knowledge bombs.

that will leave you on the edge of your seat, craving. just a show it's a journey into the future with Dan Shipper as the captain of the spaceship Do yourself a favor. Hit like Smash subscribe and strap in for the ride of your life. And now, without any further ado, let me just say, Dan, I'm absolutely hungry.