But show me one case study of someone that became the most trusted voice in their space by outsourcing all their content. Show me one. One. I'm still waiting for an answer. I've never received one before. Certainly not from an inbound agency. Never have I gotten a single one. And I have like a whole bunch personally that have done the ask you answer. This is an arrogance. This is the reality of empowering people and feeding them for a lifetime.
How are you sir? I'm doing pretty good today. Uh, Gray, how are you yourself? I'm thrilled. I've got an awesome friend here joining us today. You want to intro to the folks who's with us? Do I want to intro? Okay, so the guest we're going to be having today has got me huffing in a paper bag basically and uh, it's a journey for me because I read his book back in I want to say 2018. It really shaped me as a marketer. And I look up to him because he has a way of
simplifying the complex that I'm really inspired by. He's the author of They Ask, You Answer, which some of you might have heard about if you're in marketing. And his name is Marcus Sheridan and he'll be joining us in just a second here. Welcome to Agency Breakthrough, where we bring you real gritty stories of agency operators who found the path to get past the plateau.
Whether it's hitting on a playbook for massive growth, scaling profit margins, or just finding a way to have an agency and a life, we're here to share how they achieved it and laugh a little along the way. Presented by Zenpilot and ClickUp. And your hosts today are Jakub Grajcar and Gray McKenzie. Marcus, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining Agency Breakthrough. Hey,
thrilled to be here and Kuba, thanks for that intro. You said something that You know, I always find to be the highest compliment is when someone says something like, you know, you, I didn't understand that thing until I heard you explain it. And that makes me feel good. You know, one of the best lessons that I ever received as a marketer and just as a business person and communicator years ago, somebody told me it's dumb not to dumb it down.
And at first I didn't really understand really what that meant, but you know, I started to think about it and it's just so true. I think there's a lot of people in the digital world that try to impress and they try to sound smart. They don't even realize it sometimes. But all you do is you end up distancing yourself from your audience. Whereas if you're just looking for communion with the audience and you're trying to say in a way that light bulbs come on, now
all of a sudden you have those magical moments. And so I do appreciate you noticing that. So I thought, you know, that's the curse of being an expert. On the one hand, you want to show kind of the breadth of a subject. On the other, if you end up overcomplicating it for people in the process, then that doesn't really accomplish your goal. So this is what I like about the ask your answer to. It takes this very big area of marketing and sales. And without oversimplifying
it, it does show this kind of mindset that you can have to get great results. Yeah. If somebody said to me, what is this? What is the phrase that you want? someone to say to their peer, to their friend after they read the book or after they heard you speak, Marcus, it would be that they look at their peer and they say, oh my gosh, this is so obvious. Why are we not doing this? That to me is the ultimate goal because what's happened is they have heard
the thing and they're saying, this is attainable for me. This is not outside of my capabilities, my realm of understanding. Whereas if somebody Man, that dude is a friggin genius. Oh my goodness. See what he did? Man, that dude is baller. What have we done? We haven't really accomplished anything because now I'm the hero and their ability to do the thing is not. So they need to feel like this is 1000% attainable. That guy's not that smart actually. I mean, sure
he's smart, but he is, he is, if he can do it, I can do it. And Again, this is very, very attainable. This is why most marketers really struggle to get buy-in across the board, especially within their own organization because they sound like marketers. They don't say things in a way that is understood by the masses, certainly by leadership, by sales. Yeah. That's a good point. Marcus, this show is obviously meant for agency leaders who are in some area of
their business, we're all struggling. To your point about being relatable, like all of us have something that we're... Yeah, we are not living up. We've got a vision for where we want to be and there's the gap and we're trying to figure out how to close that gap in some area of life. You've got a handful of super cool breakthrough moments that are kind of well known in the circles that we run in but maybe we can fill in some of those gaps for
folks. So you're running River Pools and Spas, this pool company in Virginia and I just pulled up the New York Times article from February of 2013. Again, it's a- sent that to Cuba. But I remember seeing that way back in the day and kind of hearing your story at inbound for the first time probably 2013, 2014. And then you've got this second breakthrough that I really like to dig into today with They Ask You Answer and kind of the, you know, the whole
growth from that. Can you fill in some of the blanks here though of your, because I think some, there's probably a good chunk of folks listening who don't even realize kind of your, they know you as the author, Marcus. They don't know and there's this agency side and kind of the breakthroughs that you've had. building agencies as well. Could you fill in some of the story there? So, people, basically what I want to give is I want to give listeners
the context of who is Marcus, what's the relationship to agencies and now let's dig in. Yeah. Well, if you look at, you know, the pool company was started right out of university 2001. We have the crash in 2008, 2009 and that was when I really started just to learn as much as I could and the inspiration came for, hey, I'm going to take every single question we've ever been asked. We're going to start to... address that on our website through text and video. And
so within a few months of doing that, I'm like, holy cow, this works. And, uh, it was literally March 2009. I started, they asked you to answer for River Pools. Okay. November 2009 as a birthday present to myself was turning 32 years old. I gave myself a blog where I could start. writing about my thoughts on what we were doing with River Pools. And I had to share it with the world. And I picked a really dumb name called the sales lion because sales sounded better
than marketing lion. And I like lions, that's my spirit animal. So I chose sales lion and I started just explaining what I was doing at River Pools. Nobody listened for about a year, but then I started to have companies say, yo, like, can you show us how you did that thing with your pool company? And then some started to say, hey, I'd love for you to share that
at our event because I was also writing about my experience with HubSpot as well. And so over the course of the next couple of years, from basically what was 2009 was the year I start the Ask You Answer for Swimful Company, I start a personal blog. Within three years, now all of a sudden, the swimming pool company is the most trafficked swimming pool website
in the world. Three years later, Elon's starting to get requests. And because I'm obsessed with how buyers think and the questions they ask, I'm like, so they're asking me to teach them how to do this. Huh, it's probably a business here. So that's when I started that and people were saying like, hey, you talk about HubSpot in a way that just makes more sense to me,
Marcus. And so, I became the first HubSpot partner that wasn't an agency. I was a pool guy that became a HubSpot partner because I was just naturally selling it, you know, when people were saying you're writing about this stuff, you're, you're like this thought leader for now inbound in HubSpot. And then I started speaking about it. Content marketing world. Number one was probably one of the first big ones where I got my first big gig. And what was interesting
about that is I got that because HubSpot was a sponsor of Content Marketing World. Content Marketing World, Joe Pulizzi says to HubSpot, Hey, you have a, you know, you're a big sponsor. You can have a speaker. They actually, for some reason recommended me, which was cool. Then thank you HubSpot. I go to Content Marketing World and I, um, was the highest rated speaker and they have a deal where if you're the highest rated speaker, you get the keynote slot for
the next year. So, Suddenly I went from the smallest room one year, literally, to the biggest room the next year and I was the keynote. And my speaking career has just taken off since then. I've probably done more than a thousand events now all over the world. The agency though, started off where the agency was essentially just the sales lion and it was helping companies. learn how to do this thing called they ask you answer. But the premise was I think the agency
models broke it. So what do all the agencies do? Well, they do all the work for you. In my mind, I was thinking to myself, this isn't built to last. Like do we really think the best way to build an agency is that you tell someone we're going to write six blog articles for you a month and they pay you for that and then you sit there and debate about whether or not it's good enough. And they're not really in it because they're not emotionally invested
as the client. The agency's trying to do it, but could they do it really well? And I was thinking, man, at River Pools, we produce freaking great content, even though it wasn't necessarily well written at first, cause I wasn't a great writer. I became a great writer, but it wasn't, it wasn't necessarily like it wasn't what you would consider world-class, but it was actually incredibly effective because it was a pool guy just answering questions in a way people could
understand them. And so, I said, I want to create an agency model where it follows the premise of give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man how to fish, feed him for a lifetime. So I said, I believe there's a certain subset of companies in the world that want to feed themselves for a lifetime. And I want to teach those companies how to fish. And so by 2013, I am now teaching companies how to do this in-house. And we did a lot of stuff that was really,
really different. In fact, we told anybody, if you want to work with us, you have to have a full time content writer and most of them didn't have someone. And so they had to hire someone to work with us. So I'm literally asking people, you got to hire someone and then you got to pay us too, which was unusual at the time, but it made a lot of sense to me. And I'm like, this is the way, this is how you're going to become a world class trusted voice
online. The future of the internet is not you outsourcing all your content, video, text, etc. to somebody else, an agency or a production company. It's you being able to do the majority of your own stuff, if we're being honest. Creators. So, I was calling out the creator side of the creator economy long before anybody was. And then of course, fast forward, whatever, 10 years, and now all of a sudden with chat
what are we going to do now? We better start thinking about coaching consulting and we've been doing it for 10 years. Yeah. So, what I heard here was like you went from point A, you told us a little about like D, F, G, I along the way and I wanted to paint a good picture of like Z of today before we started dissecting what was happening kind of in between the letters of the alphabet here if you'll indulge me with a metaphor. So, you know, where you are today
with Can you tell us a little bit about kind of the scale, you know? So what happened is I became friends with a guy named Bob Ruffalo and he had an agency, a very traditional inbound agency called Impact and they were HubSpot partner and I was just a little shop of like three or four people crushing it with consulting and they were the traditional agency. And so we did a couple of events together and eventually Bob's like, you know, I think we should work
together. And so we decided to merge the company and I let go of the sales lion and it just became impact. And after the first probably year, year and a half of working together, it was over Christmas break. One time, Bob is, you know, like rummaging like he does through a bunch of stuff over the holidays. And he calls me up one day, he's like, I had a realization. I'm like, what is it? He said, well, I realized that all of our great case studies are, they
ask you answer clients, they're your clients. They're not agency clients. Suddenly, he was like, I think we're doing our clients a disservice to do it the way it's always been done in the inbound agency space. Sure, we can have successful campaigns, but we're not building successful cultures. And there's a very big difference between the two. I do believe agencies can do successful campaigns. But if you're not doing coaching consulting training, you're not building
successful cultures. The very big difference between the two. You're not creating this entity that's truly, truly built to last. And so most agencies don't like that idea because they think that it's very limiting. But the average engagement with agencies these days is less than a year. And our average engagement with clients is usually around 18 months or more. And that's as a, and oftentimes we'll engage with them further. So today, how impact works,
it's 100%. coaching, consulting. Companies come to us and they say, hey, I read the book. I want to do they ask you answer. And we teach them how to do this in house. We train their videographer. We train their content writer. We train their HubSpot owner. We do not do stuff for them though. We don't do the thing. We teach them how to use the tool. We teach
them how to do the strategy. Now, this is outrageously more profitable on two fronts. It's outrageous and more profitable for the agency and for the client because the client experiences unbelievable results. I mean, the case studies that we have at Impact, you just don't see in the inbound space. It's not me bragging, it's just a fact. I mean, we've got multiple companies that are the most, literally the most trafficked website and their entire industry, multiple clients
like this. that are just doing crazy things that have scaled up, that have sold their businesses. And it's not because we did a campaign. I mean, we completely changed the face of the organization. Now, the one other thing that makes us different too, that I think agencies really have messed up on, is that we have a heavy, heavy emphasis on working with sales teams and sales training. We won't just work with a marketing department. I don't believe in that. I don't think you
can do that. responsibly in 2023. Because what happens? You can be the best market in the world, but if sales is pushing back, it just flounders. It doesn't really fly. So you gotta bring the two together, you gotta eliminate the silos, you gotta have the ear of sales leadership, you gotta have the ear of management, you gotta have the ear of leadership. And so, as an example, we won't engage a client if their head leader, CEO, whatever you wanna call it,
is it on our... 90 day planning sessions. So you have to be on that 90 day planning session if you're a client and you're the CEO of the company. If not, we won't engage you because you're gonna be asking questions, you're gonna be aloof and we can't allow for any aloofness or ignorance to exist with leadership. And so we have high demands of our clients. Because of this, they achieve exceptional results. But what we don't do is we don't do the work for
them. And we don't say, hey, we're going to have these deliverables for you. And I think those days are or they might not be dead, but they're dying really, really fast. Right. Yeah, exactly. If you can have AI doing the work for you, it's about how you approach all the rest of it, how you prompt it, how you distribute it. I get all of that. Agency Breakthrough is brought to you by ClickUp. ClickUp is the number one productivity platform
and fastest growing work management solution for agencies. ClickUp gives you an easy way to track all of your clients, projects, deliverables, tasks, and team capacity in one place. With ClickUp, your team will finally be fully aligned and rolling in the same direction. Go to ClickUp.com, that's C-L-I-C-K-U-P. to get started on the free forever plan. Marcus, can you give us a couple of the numbers around impact just to help people quantify?
Let's go kind of team size. I know Bob has mentioned some of these metrics on other podcasts. Yeah, he knows them better than I do. I mean, we have about 70 employees and we'll do more than $10 million a year in revenue. I don't know the exact numbers there. I probably should, but I just am not as intrinsically involved with some of the... some of the day-to-day of the company. I think that's helpful. My point is like this is not, you know, a four-person consulting.
This is working beyond like a super small scale. It's really impressive kind of what's been built here and that this model where it is coaching and consulting, people look at that and think there's no way that can scale. You can't grow that kind of business and you guys are a great example. You know, the knock against it is like you're saying, all right, you're teaching them how to not need an agency because you're showing them how to do the thing. And what ends up
happening is you become indispensable to their entire business. If you look at that trifecta of sales, leadership and marketing and you give value and become indispensable to each one of the prongs there, then when times are tough, they're like, no matter what happens, we just can't, we can't get rid of impact. We can't let go of impact. But if you're just doing simple deliverables for them, you're going to get cut with the next, you know, budget slash.
And that's why we have a lot of clients that, you know, stay with us for years, but it's still on some type of consulting coaching level. You got to understand that stuff is happening all the time. So we just had this huge, you know, like wall wave of AI hit us. So immediately we went to the market and said, hey, we're going to teach you how to use it in-house. So instead of... being worried like a lot of agencies of, I don't want to show you a tool that's going
to replace us. We're saying, we're always here for you. We're paying attention. We're using it. We're in the sandbox. We're now going to teach you how to use the thing as well. And so, much higher value to the client. So I am not sitting there trying to protect my bottom
line at the expense. of the client. So, the client stays at the forefront. So, me as what is like the brand ambassador of the company and as the thought leader, I can sit there and really, really focus on what are the trends that we need to be caring about and how can we teach that to our clients? How can we teach that to our clients all the time? Whenever there's a trend, immediately we bring it to the client. I don't really think it's the job
of every CEO in the world to know trends like it's our job. It's our job to make sure they're aware of it. to understand it, to make sure they're aware of it and then help them apply it. And so, that's what we're doing with AI but that's what we're also doing with any other trends that are happening out there like vertical short style video. Same thing and we're teaching our clients how to do that. We weren't teaching them how to do that three years ago but today
we are. Marshall. Gotcha. So, I wanted to, if we can, to circle back to the story of your breakthrough and you know, I've heard you tell that story a few times and it almost feels like you know, the comes to life, there's this momentum that carries you forward almost kind
of to the present day. And I wanted to zoom in on that story a little bit more and ask you, I suppose the way I would phrase the question is, what was the messy middle, you know, between when they ask you answer was first uttered and it becoming, you know, such a big trend there being, you know, they ask you answer certified coaches, etc. Like, what was the part that you had to get through that, you know, maybe you rarely share about or haven't shared about
before, hopefully. Something that you know, then actually what did it take to bring it to that scale? Well, just take the phrase they ask you answer for a second, right? I think the first time I ever used they ask you answer was I was at a HubSpot event, I was at inbound, then I was on a panel and there was a question about you know, blog articles. And I told everybody, I said, listen, here's what you need to do. I don't think I'd ever really used the phrase
consistently. I mean, today I say, you know, I told my, like I said before, I said, I told my team, we're going to do this thing called they ask you to answer. Well, I say that, but I didn't say that to the team at the time. I said, we're going to answer all the questions we've ever received from our customers didn't have a name for it. But I was sitting on this panel and I was telling folks, I said, listen, here's what you need to do. What you need to
do is I want you to go back to the office today. And I want you to brainstorm every single question you've ever received in a sales appointment. to brainstorm every single one. If you come up with less than 50 or 100, you're being pretty lazy. Now, I want you to make those 50 to 100 questions. I want you to make those your first 100 blog articles. I mean, look at it like this, like they've asked you the question, now answer it. It's like they ask, you answer.
That's it folks, that's all you have to do. And I saw a bunch of people writing it down. It was like everybody in the room was scribbling like I had said something really smart. I'm like, well, what's interesting is it's usually, you know, there's a- a scripture phrase by small and simple things are great things brought to pass. And I've seen that, that's communication 101. They Ask You Answer was immediately understood. Audience showed me it was understood. And so
I was like, huh, that's it. So I started talking about They Ask You Answer heavily from that point on, which was probably 2013, 2012, 13. I didn't write the first version of They Ask You Answer until 2017. Now people constantly were saying... I could be having written the book. Well, unlike a lot of speakers that just write theoretical books, but they haven't actually
done the thing, I wanted to feel like I had proven it outside of just pools. And so, the beauty is I was able to achieve a bunch of case studies in other industries, B2B included, because a lot of people were like, well, that work for you's a pool guy, it's not going to work for my B2B whatever organization, which is utterly ridiculous. And I could spend hours talking about how... how asinine that thought process is because still, you know, companies
think that way today. But I wanted to prove that this framework existed. If I had written The Ask You Answer in 2013, it probably would have been a book about blogging for business. But because I wrote it in 2017 and I had time to really start to teach it, the more I'm able to teach something, the more I'm able to see exactly what it is that I'm trying to say. And what it became was a framework. And so today when I speak about the Ask You Answer, it's
a sales and marketing framework for businesses. It's also a philosophy. I don't ever use the phrase, it's a business blogging strategy, right? Because that dramatically undersells what it is. And so I launched it, but I didn't have really any fanfare when I launched it. I didn't have a really, I had a following, but I didn't have a massive following. And. What's interesting is they ask you answer is sold more every single year. More. So it's now in its fifth year that
it's been available in the market. Six years better stated six years. It's got a revision and I'll come out with another revision next year. So probably revision three will come back here because I need to talk a bunch about AI and stuff like that. But the point is that you look at it. How's it growing every single year? Well, it's growing because it just, uh, it is a principle driven. marketing book. A lot of marketing books, they're platform centric,
which means they're finite in nature. But They Ask You Answer is built on the emotion of how can you become the most trusted voice in your space? So trust isn't going away in terms of it's important to the market, businesses really care about it, it resonates, right? And so, I could talk about They Ask You Answer for the next 20 years to some degree. right? Because it's about transparency, trust, etc. in business. That's helped it to continue to grow. I've
continued to speak about it. That's helped the movement continue. And you know, I kept the reason why I started the partner program is I kept having people tell me like, yeah, I'm working with this agency and they're using this thing called they ask you answer and they gave me your book. And I was like, wow, why don't I just go to the guy that wrote the book? It was kind of funny. And so... I'm like, I got all these agencies teaching my stuff, they're
using my IP, good for them. But I might as well have a partner program that allows them to be actual certified and to give them all the goods because I knew they probably weren't going to deliver it at the success rate we could at Impact. And so, that's why we started the partner program. It's been really, really cool to see it. What I didn't expect out of the partner program is it has been a key, a catalyst in people saying, I want to write, they ask
you answer. in German or I want to do it, they ask you answer for nonprofits. So, I've got like one partner now doing it for nonprofits. I got another one doing it for SaaS companies. And I'm just going to be a co-author in each of these. And so, that's a networking, the
power networking effect I didn't anticipate with this. So, Marcus, launching, I asked this question recently on LinkedIn around certification programs and Pete Caputa from DataBox chimed in and he said, hey, for certification programs to work well, there's got to be a benefit to the end. your agencies, the organizations you're certifying, they need to be able to sell the
benefit of that. In your case, that makes sense, hey, we're certified, they ask you answer, coaches, we've got this, you know, we've actually gone through and worked with Marcus and his team to earn the certification. How, I guess from a benefits perspective, so if an agency is hearing this, they're thinking, hey, maybe I should get that as well. What are the big benefits that would draw somebody in to go through that certification program? Well, here's the
surprising answer to your question, Gray. What we realize is, sure, they ask you answers nice for the agency to be able to have and to be able to use and teach, but that's not the important value they get from the program. The biggest value they get from the program is they learn how to be a coaching consulting company. That happens to do they ask you answer with clients if they want to. And so, we actually have set it up now where agencies can reach out to us
because if you think about... how the agency world has worked. It's like, we've almost learned to be yes men and women. That's what we're trained to be. It's like, hey, I really need this thing. Yes, we can do that for you. Hey, how about this campaign? Yes, I can do that for you. They haven't learned how to say, no, that's not what we're going to do. But let's talk about why we're not going to do that. They don't know how to say no. And so because of that,
there's a lot of incongruence in the relationships. And it's not oftentimes a two-way street. you're just serving the client masters like, you know, the client is just driving the relationship. It shouldn't be that way. It should be a very symbiotic mutual relationship, mutually respectful. And it's amazing how much happier your team is when they can guide a client, say no to
a client, persuade in a positive way a client, positively influence a client. where they learn the skills to ask the perfect question every single time, which is a huge focus of ours. They understand how to deal with friction. They understand how to deal with sales teams who are very resistant, generally speaking, to new ideas. How to train sales teams, because they learn that from us, right? So these are the big values that we're bringing to them. Take
your traditional agency that is a yes man, yes woman agency. and turn it into a coaching consulting company where you're now guiding them in your margins are dramatically better because of it. Okay, so I wanted to add one more piece to the breakthrough story actually. So I'm trying to, in my mind, I'm trying to answer the question of what does it take to go on
a journey like yours? And one thing that I already learned is that kind of one piece that I'm taking away from it is You come up with this concept, even though it's extremely exciting and is catching on, don't write the book just yet, spend a few years teaching, and then you'll find that it maybe has a broader application or you'll accumulate those case studies. It'll
just be so much more refined and that's how you come up with an evergreen classic. And you strike me, Marcus, and I think a lot of people would agree as a natural teacher and speaker. But still, I wanted to ask you about this piece, this These few years that you spent refining the concept and kind of getting it from its first iteration to what we saw in the first edition of the book, what was the difficult part of that you had to get through?
And if somebody wants to take that same journey, you know, what would you warn them against that it's kind of an obstacle they might? So what you want to do, and this goes back to even to your point, Gray, you want to find ways to say yes when you're in the sales process to people so as to make this sale. So, somebody comes to you and they say something like, I really like they ask, you answer, but I don't want to hire a content writer. Do you think my team could do this if everybody like
took one article a week each? You want to say yes to that, don't you? But guess what? That's going to fail big time. And see, that's the type of stuff that I had to learn who was not going to work. And so, I would say yes to things like they would say. Could I outsource a writer and bring that writer on occasion for this? I'd say, oh yeah, I think we could make that work. Doesn't work. Could I outsource the video and make it work? Doesn't work. Could I have
somebody on my staff that is already on staff also do this? Oh yeah, I think we can make that work. Doesn't work, right? It's like these are the things that don't work. So I said yes to a lot of these things at first. CEOs not involved in some of the initial conversations, doesn't work. Somebody calls me up and says, that's a marketer, hey Marcus, I believe that they asked you answer works. Can you talk to my CEO and convince him or her that this will
work? Doesn't work because I tried that too. You know, they would, I realized if somebody hasn't invested any energy. in trying to learn about this thing. I don't care if I am John the Baptist, they are not going to pay attention to my words. So, the point being is I tell marketers now, I'm like, listen, I'm not here to convert your CEO. The book will do that for you. All you got to do is give them the... If they read the book, they're going to want
to have a conversation. They're going to respect me also. But if they don't know me from Adam and I meet with them, and try to convince them about this thing called they ask you answer, it's going to go poorly. It's not going to do that. That's another mistake that I made. Also have, and this is a much deeper conversation, Kuba, but I have developed my communication skills and I have learned the proper questions to ask to make companies really boil down their
core beliefs. in terms of sales and marketing. And what I mean by that is, you know, people want to debate me all the time when they don't really understand they ask you answer. They're like, ah, we shouldn't talk about cost and price. I've just learned to blow things down in the most simplistic of terms. So do you believe trust is fundamental to your business, yes or no? Well, no, no. Just answer the question. Do you believe it's fundamental to your business?
Yes. Do you want to become the most trusted voice in your space? Is that a goal you aspire to? Yes or no? If the answer is yes, we continue talking. If the answer is no, we're not a fit. It's okay. It's fine. And so, I've learned also through this that I'm not trying to convince anybody to become the most trusted voice in their space. I don't need to convince them
to read the book. You can do that. That's fine. If you do it though, this is going to resonate with you and then we're going to have some type of conversation and maybe we can, maybe we can't help you. But too often as agencies... We're begging for the business. We're just trying to find a way to help them. And it just creates a terrible relationship that sucks. And I'm really happy to say that our clients adore us and they would like jump in front
of bullets for us and vice versa because of the depth of the relationship. And that's what happens when you have a coach-client relationship. Agency Breakthrough is brought to you by ZenPilot. ZenPilot is ClickUp's number one solutions partner, helping agencies get maximum value from ClickUp as quickly as possible. We've
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when you start working with us. Go to zenpilot.com, book a call with us, and get on the path to better productivity and bigger profits. Marcus, how prior to the book, because this tees up like everything you just said aligns really well with one of the principles you teach in the book, assignment selling and hey, we've got to have there's healthy friction on both sides of this relationship getting started.
Prior to having the book, because everyone listening is thinking the same thing, I wish I had that book. Dang, I should have written that book so I could do the same thing Marcus does. What did you do prior to the book in terms of obviously, you know, sometimes you said yes. But there's some evolution there relearned, it doesn't make sense. And how did you answer it in those cases?
I teach their questions and it is far and away the best way to teach because the fact is most people when they communicate, whether it's sales or whether it's a speaker or leadership or anything like this, they're almost trying to force feed information. It doesn't really work. If you ask questions and allow them to truly self-reflect, they just might self-discover.
And so, as I was leading up to the book, I was doing different versions of assignment selling, but if I met someone cold on the street, you know, a CEO, and they're like, all right, so what do you do? Right? So, let's say, you know, I was at inbound and somebody says, you know, we got a booth there and they say, hey, what do you do? I'd say simple, I have a question for you and this will explain what we do. So, you're a CEO. I want you to tell me which of
these two would you prefer? It's three years down the road. If you wanna produce any content, if you wanna write any articles, if you wanna produce any videos, if you wanna create anything, you've gotta call an agency to do it for you. That's option one. Option two. If you wanna write any article, you can do that because you have those skills in-house. If you wanna produce any video, you can do that because you have those skills in-house. If you wanna get a report
in HouseBot, you can do that because you have those skills in-house. Essentially, you can do whatever you want. because you have those skills in-house. If you have the choice as a CEO, which one of those two scenarios would you prefer to be living in three years from today? Now, 90% are gonna say, I wanna have control. Now, me, understanding how to communicate, I'm gonna say, and why do you want control? And they're gonna say, because that's how I'm
going to achieve my potential. That's what's gonna allow me to reach the goals that I want. And that's what I'm able to say, and we're gonna teach you exactly. how to do just that. So that's how we essentially get people interested in the idea of owning their sales and marketing success versus outsourcing it, which I just so very much don't believe it's the way. I just don't... Now it's fine, but show me one case study of someone that became the most
trusted voice in their space by outsourcing all their content. Show me. One. I'm still waiting for an answer. I've never received one before. Certainly not from an inbound agency. Never have I gotten a single one. And I have like a whole bunch personally that have done the ASCII answer. This isn't arrogance. This is the reality of empowering people and feeding
them for a lifetime. Right? That's what we're doing. That's awesome. Okay. I'm really struck by that because I would have expected, I was thinking you know, you had a pitch prepared, maybe you know, some smaller doc PDF that you might have shared with them before the book was a thing but it makes so much sense that you are doing this through questions and it stands out a lot, right? Chris Dupre, my head of revenue at Impact told the story at our
recent They Ask Your Answers Summit and I think you'll appreciate this. We had a lead at Impact not too long ago who was interested in HubSpot and they were debating back and forth. And they talked to one of our reps for a long time about HubSpot. And I was just like, I just don't know. I just don't know. So, I spent an hour with him, nothing. Then they talked to what's it called, a cam at HubSpot. And they talked to one of, you know, one of the great
HubSpotters for over an hour about the value HubSpot would bring to the organization. And they still didn't move, still didn't move. And I... And finally, I was like, let me talk to the person. Let me talk to the person. The literal conversation went like this, and this is not an exaggeration. Here's the conversation. I say to the person, can you definitively measure the ROI of your digital marketing right now? No, I cannot. Okay. If you could, what's the
value of that to your company? I mean, thousands. How many thousands? hundreds of thousands. Okay. So in order to get that hundreds of thousands of value, you need to spend 20,000 a year on HubSpot. Are you ready to move? Absolutely. There, done. For years when I was selling HubSpot, I'd isolate the one problem that they had to solve, and I literally would never show 99% of what HubSpot could do. 99% I wouldn't show. The one person is the only thing that matters.
But you see, most people don't understand how to sell that way. When you become a coaching company, that's how you learn how to sell. Because you learn how to ask world-class questions that lead quickly to the core of the problem or the need and they can self-discover on their own that that's the move they need to make. That's awesome, Marcus. Driving through questions is the way to go. Kuba, let's switch over here. I know you get some, these don't have to be
rapid fire, Marcus. But we're trying to build here. in the crisp cornucopia is kind of, hey, we've got a little grab bag of questions and there's some that are kind of typical. Want to know, hey, are the top tools, books, that kind of stuff that you've got, who are some folks we should follow? And there's a couple here that are atypical. Kuba, could I drive with one random off the wall one for Marcus first? Yes, Gray, you have my permission to do that.
my parents homeschooled us all. My mom started homeschooling in probably 84 or 85. My oldest sister is born in an 81. And my twin brothers, the youngest two are graduating, we're having a party on Sunday. I need to come up with a ball in, hey mom, thanks for homeschooling for so long. Do you have any ideas of a gift for my homeschooling mother who's retiring?
I might be the worst gifter of all time. With that being said, I naturally, when I think of that, I'm the type of person that I would immediately think of a listicle, okay, to do. And I want to create something here for it because it's much more memorable. And I'd create a listicle that was 10 things that you no longer have to do, mom, because we're all done. And those 10 things would be funny activities that she always has had to do as a homeschool mom
that she now no longer has to. She'll laugh the whole time, she'll frame it and she'll love it forever. Boom. That's awesome. Oh yeah, and the worst gifter of all time. Yeah. I'm fine. We'll see. I'm much better with words, right? So, I'm not good with the physical things but I'm pretty decent with- with the verbal things. Well, I'm going to put the hardest
question possible here. Kuba, pick your favorite one and let's grill Marcus. I want to go with a much more boring one but like from the person who wrote one of the most influential books at least from my perspective in the space, what are some other books or concepts that you think kind of get close to what they ask you answer achieve? Some books that you might recommend? Or you know, even if they're not in the same space, maybe something that kind of recently
inspired you. Well, I think everybody should read Storybrand because I think the two most important marketing books you can read, not because I'm biased, I really believe this, or they ask you to answer in Storybrand. They ask you to answer of course is the framework and the strategy for the content you produce. And Storybrand is the angle by which you deliver it and learning how to make your audience the focus and the hero of your content, right?
Which is important. And that affects all communication. It's not just, you know, let's say your homepage or your webpage or anything like that. And so, I'm a big believer in a story brand. I also am a big fan of Kim Scott's Radical Candor. I think she did a great job with that book. You know, for some people, you know, they have a hard time with the word radical candor. Those folks need to grow up because if you read the book, it says that radical candor is speaking
high carrying with high directness. And that means with love. And learning how to do directness with love is an absolute life changer. But the moment you realize you can be the most caring and most direct person in any room at a given time, your life will absolutely change. So I would recommend that. I'd recommend as the best business book of all time, just for like a CEO, is Good to Great. by Jim Collins. I've probably read that maybe somewhere in the range
of 20 times is my guess. And just best interpersonal communications book of all time is How to Win Friends and Influence People. It's the great classic. You should probably read that every couple of years. I would say this though, you're much better off reading one book 10 times this year than you are reading 10 different books one time. One thing we rarely ask about is, hey, service providers, if there's nobody who code pops
into your mind right away, we're gonna skip to the next question. Over your career, are there any service providers that stand out to you? You've used accounting firm, whatever that may be. I'm sorry I don't have one, but to that though, you better have a dang good account, you business owners. Because I went through an embezzlement early on in my pool company's career and that was the worst three years of my life. So, make sure you have a
good dang accountant, please. I'm really curious to see what percentage of folks on this show have an instant answer. Like, oh yes, we worked with this and this was outstanding. Folks who we should follow. So, Outside of Books, these are whatever, give them a follow on their blog, on LinkedIn, on whatever that looks like. Do you have any favorite recommendations? Well, I mostly spend my time on LinkedIn and there's, I mean, there's just people I really like and
respect. Ron Tite is one that I like and respects a lot. Alex B. Sheridan, he's not related to me, but he does a lot of fun creative videos on LinkedIn. Just smart guy. I think he does a lot of good things. I think he's really thoughtful. Man, I'm sure there's so many more that I'm not gonna think of right now. Cody Sanchez, I love Cody Sanchez, talks about finance. She's like the Gary V of I would say finance in a lot of ways of starting a business and buying
boring businesses and becoming profitable. So I really like her. I think she's a gangster. She's super good. Okay. Thanks for answering that. So I suppose we'll call it there when it comes to the crisp cornucopia section. of this pod and yeah, like Gray, I'm really curious, you know, for the service provider is what people are going to say, what are the recurring themes going to be, how many people are going to name, they ask you answer or you know, are you as
a follow. But anyway, we're kind of arriving upon the end of our time here and just to throw one last one in there, was there anything else that you wanted to, you know, given the audience, given the topic, given the agency breakthrough name, was there anything else that you wanted to kind of... share or throw in there and as we wrap this up. Well, I would just say if you're listening to this and it's resonated with you, just make sure you reach out to me,
connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm a really good follow, my best stuff there. You can also email me marcus at marcusheridan.com. That's a personal email you can hit me at marcus at marcusheridan.com. Remember what I said when I started, it's dumb not to dumb it down. You don't need to prove
to the world that you're smart to be incredibly effective. The number one feedback I get to give to speakers and to creators when they're asking me to look at their stuff is I can see that you're trying to prove to the audience that you belong on this stage and if you could let that go, you are going to become the best version of yourself. There's a lot more me
to that Kuba, but it's a problem that people have. Some might call it imposter syndrome, but it's just, you have to just find a way to be very satisfied with what you know, knowing that it's not for everybody. Even today, you know, there's probably about 98% of the people that listen to this podcast today are like, you know, I really liked him. There will be 2%. Let's say, I just don't, I don't like his style. I don't like his way. I don't like his
energy. Whatever that thing is. And I'm able to talk openly about those people because I've already let them go. I love those people but I don't care about what they think, right? Because I'm okay with the fact that we're not a good match, right? I don't like tomatoes. I never will. They love it. They love a tomato. I've tried to like tomato. I just not going to like it. So it's okay. It's totally okay. You have to learn that. if you're going to
be really, really successful in business. A lot of companies never achieve amazing things with marketing because they're afraid to be disliked by anybody. So they're very lukewarm. I'd much rather be a little bit polarizing. And so keep that in mind as you're trying to build a brand, whether it's personal, professional business. You got to be willing to let a few go in order to be most attractive to the masses and really show who you are. Or because you
crushed it. I told you we can get you out of here on time. We're just barely gonna do it. But I appreciate you spending so much time with us today on Agents of Breakthrough. Thank you. My pleasure. So, that just happened. We just had Marcus Sheridan on the show on Agency Breakthrough in one of our very first episodes. That was amazing. Marcus has so much to say on so many topics here.
Hugely inspiring. Gray, what was one piece of what Marcus said that inspired you? Yeah, it was hard not to, you know, Marcus is such a good speaker that you don't want to jump into the conversation as he's going. But it was, you know, I had a million follow-up questions that I'd love to be able to get. on the recording as well and obviously little limited by time.
But one of the things that inspired me from what he shared and this is you know, probably confirmation bias because this has been a big focus here at ZenPilot is just basically how do we build out you know, his story of selling HubSpot in that situation and helping break through all these conversations were happening. There's all this hesitancy, a very simple conversation and Klein winds up being able to move forward and make a decision. that's what everyone wants
is just clarity and how do we move forward towards action. So, that inspired me to continue to work on our process of what we're doing. I think that'll impact sales at ZenPilot but I think more than that, we've built out this agency operator score card and it's basically, hey, here's how do we benchmark where we are now, how do we identify the key metrics we need to be measuring and then what's the impact of getting ops? actually streamlined inside ClickUp.
And taking that and making sure that we're actually using that tool to help people get clarity and the numbers should be clear. If the impact is not there, we should not be pushing you and move forward. We shouldn't even be wasting time in a conversation and if the numbers are clear, they should be taking action whether it's with us or with someone else but there should be the gift of clarity that we're handing to them and say hey, now that you've got this
information, here's your freedom to move forward. So, That inspired me. How about on your end? So, adding on to yours, that stood out to me as well. You stole mine. I was going to do the same one. I was going to say, you know, the way he didn't even show 99% of Hopspot, but just the 1% that hit the biggest pain point and that framed the conversation around value. And that's one of my big takeaways, frame the conversation around value and selling becomes
a lot easier. But the second thing then, I have to go to the second thing because you stole my first, is it's so powerful when somebody asks you, what do you do as a business and you respond with a question. I wanna work on that. I wanna be able to do that, what he did, to be able to respond with a question, maybe show these two scenarios, which one do you prefer? And that's kind of, that's where we get you. Amazing, that was hugely inspirational.
And just a lot of the other things that. that he said, I'm really grateful for this time that we had together here on Agency Breakthrough. Glad it happened. So this was one of our episodes. Hopefully you will listen to the other ones. Gray, any other thing else to add here as we finish up? No, let's wrap it there. This was great. Join us again next time for another Agency Breakthrough. See you next time. It's gonna be awesome.