Hello everyone. This is David Goldsmith and welcome to the Project Moon Hut podcast series, The Age of Infinite. We're looking to learn from individuals all over the world how we can better and more rapidly establish sustainable life on the moon and how we can improve our ecosystem on earth so we can make that happen with the end result being that we change how we live on earth for all species. Well, today we have another fantastic guest on the line.
His name, and I hope I don't screw this up, is Kale, Vaha Yakola. Excellent. Did I do it okay? Perfect. Ex okay. He's from, from Helsinki, Finland, and he's the captain and co founder of Space Nation, which has today approximately 50 to 60,000, let's call them subscribers, with a similar directive, different than ours but similar, that he wanted to accelerate humanity's transition into the new space era. So welcome to the show. Thank you, David. A pleasure to be on the show.
Well, I I we just had a small conversation beforehand. He's I've got water because I sometimes recommend people get water. He's got coffee, 2 cups of them. So if he gets a little hyper, we can slow him down. Tell him not to drink the coffee. Yeah. Yeah. So, do you have an outline for us to work off of, some bullet points that we're gonna be covering? Yeah. I have a few. I have 3, actually.
And, first one is basically that, I believe and we believe that going to space isn't just inevitable, but a necessity for the whole humanity. And the second bullet point is that, there are 3 pillars driving humanity to space. And and the third one, why moon and how? Okay. Let's start with this first one then. Go into space, is not only inevitable but it is necessary. So what do you mean by that? That's a big a big statement. That that is a big statement.
So basically, that, I view that, humanity as a race or species or society going to space is just a matter of time. That is as as long as I've been, like, alive and my memories go, I felt it in the bones and everything, and and what I've learned has just emphasized it.
So, thinking about the space race going to the moon, and and these first being, politically driven races, and and these kind of things, but what we also see now what is happening, that we truly are in that, most interesting era when it comes to space exploration, and settling in space that we live in that, like like, it would have been fun to see personally, us going to the moon, but I think, like, this is the most, interesting and exciting time to be alive when considering humanity's transportation space.
Did you just say I think I heard what you said. So let me make sure to clarify. You think it would have been interesting if that we could have gone to the moon. So I think what you're are you trying to say and tell me if I'm wrong, you're asking you're saying you wish you were a little bit further down the line and that you had actually you get to experience it today. Is that what you're saying?
Yeah. Oh oh, I'm when we went in the sixties, like, the moon to see it personally and being alive in that, that time would be have been interesting and fun. But I see that this time where we live is much more exciting, because now we are going there, to stay and not just to visit. So it was almost like 50 years ago that we were there last time. And, I think that It it is it is 50 years. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
It's a lot and, you know, that a lot of people are very disappointed, so it might not have been a good time. That group of individuals, when you talk to them, they're not happy. Yeah. They they don't they don't know how 50 years disappeared, and we are just starting to see the ignition of this race, this space, excitement again. So Exactly. And that's might might be very Phineas like angle, but that frustration is basically fueling and accelerating the development too.
There there was born that generation that saw saw it is like, they were stolen the future that they were promised. It it's, of course, like a kind of a cliche, those who know, the the statement, but, then also the the generations afterwards. Like, if we talk about whether it's, Elon Musk's or Jeff Bezos or other ones that that, grew up reading like, well, the sci fi literature and, waiting like space cities and moon cities and these.
And and that was when I was born in in the 81, and, grew up on eighties. I was, like, expecting that when are we on Mars? When when do we have space cities? When when we have permanent settlements in the moon?
And then in the nineties, I I was starting to be aware more about things, and understanding about why the space race happened, why we aren't there, there's a matter of course, and certain hardships in going there, and everything, but, now in the past 10 15 years, that that's all been radically changed, and, most of the people doesn't know about it. And it's very logical. Why not? Basically. Well, it it yet at the same time, is there a chance? I don't know. I'm just asking your opinion of this.
Is there a chance we could screw it up again? Definitely. So, kind of, I, myself going in into a certain center of the whole development of this and and human human space flight, and and this, that was kind of the first things also I learned that, it might seem outside when looking like, sports cars flying to the Mars and these kind of things that that it's going well, and it is in a way, but, behind the scenes, it's scary how, fragile it is also.
Meaning that there's just a small group of people driving it, and and thinking about the resources and the money in it, compared to whether it's the classic military budget of US or the whole wealth of of the planet. It's it's such a small fraction that actually goes into humanity going to space at the moment compared to everything else.
And and, if if the business models basically, that are very fragile and new in there because before it was, mostly about government, driven things, and and now we are talking about commercial space. So we are taking the first steps, but we might crumble, and and the crumbling might, like, mean, decade, like, or decades even, slowing down the transition. But I guess we are jumping to the next, point of my bullet point already.
So let's let's so let no. Let's get back to the inevitable because the the launch that just happened with Elon was an incredible feat that that has happened. At the same time, some of the commentators were that I was listening to started to say, well, first of all, the United Launch Alliance has had a 100% success rate. They have had challenges. They are cheaper today, and the Elon Musk is gonna catch up very quickly.
That's not to say that in that something else could happen, be it geopolitically, politically, militarily. The world's unstable. So when you say it's inevitable, do you mean it's inevitable sometime in the future, or are you saying it's inevitable now? Sometime in the future. It looks strong now in a way even if it's there's a fragile things and risks in world, but there's always risk on going to space and new frontiers.
But, the inevitable in meaning that it's a matter of time, but I but I think in that sense also that, there are it's a race against time in a way also as a society, and there we come into the matter of necessity. So, thinking about human human, humans as a group of individuals and as a as a society and civilization, I believe that it's in our DNA that we are explorers. We we can't stay too long in confined spaces.
We, say say it bluntly, we, like, stagnate and and we kill each other if we are taken into a confined space, and there's no like room to explore, and and the mentality is whether we talk about micro world, so meaning like long ago. What is behind that hill? What is behind the next hill?
What is behind the sea and such thinking, but also like, searching new frontiers whether it is in the microscopic world, and it doesn't mean that we all are like that, but as a society there are always a group of individuals that, want to find something new, and the big masses if they don't act they still dream about something new, and hopeful, and inspirational, and certain parts of that we saw also in the moon landings, that how it affected the society, and the whole humanity as a a whole even if it was a blink moment of history.
But, yeah. It's an it's an interesting comment that is I never thought about it until just as the moment you said it. You said it's in our DNA. Yes. And if I I started and yet when you defined it, you said some of us have it and some of us do not. It's well So I guess I guess the question is it might not be in our DNA. It might be because we see scarce resources. It might be because we, are curious. It might be because some people like to own things or control things.
I I'm not exactly sure if it's in our DNA, or is it is it an is it an offshoot of our DNA? Well, that that's fair fair enough. I think, like, it is, as you said, it is about curiosity. So the curiosity, drives the exploration, drives the innovation. And, I think that, what I'm referring that, if some people doesn't act in so much, it it might be, like, more in a dormant for them, and and some might be, like, triggered or activated and and, act on it more.
And it it's it's kind of the same way if you talk about, like, entrepreneurship or, similar things in that that sense, that also the environment where you come from might like, how do you say, like put it down a little bit. So for example, I come from the part in Finland that, let's say, that positive encouragement wasn't a very, like, abundant thing.
So, like, doing new stuff and crazy stuff or or making a space company wasn't something that, as a big farmer's son, you were so much like encouraged on, and it might not always be like, there isn't that, the mentality that the encouragement, but because it is unknown and uncertainties and these.
But, there will always be those, courageous individuals or those that, whatever the reason that it triggers, the need to exploration, and and whether it's, like, we see sending sports cars into space or other things, it still ignites that in in the whole other society also.
And and you can So go in the history to see it about, like, whether it was, the areas of going to America or or whatever, like, these kind of pioneers going, it it, affected the societies as a whole and give inspiration, dreams, and hopes, and and sex. So so what what happened with you? I mean, I I hope your parents are never gonna listen to this interview, because you just told them that they didn't get much encourage give you much encouragement. As a society.
What happened to you as your background is in the sciences? What made what sparked your creativity? What made it change that you were interested enough to say you wanted to build a new organization to help promote this? Well, I well, to to say about my parents actually, like, I owe them, like, a lot than all, in in that way to say that, even though they were like farmers, and and I come from 3,000 people village and farm village.
They didn't understand when I was like, as long as my memory is called like drawing rockets and talking about space and learning about every space book and libraries and and ordering around the Finland, all space books in the eighties. But they like, allowed me to do that. They they basically didn't, say that don't do that. You should do like other kids and some something like that. So I was very fortunate in that way, but I saw a lot of other people and kids that wasn't in the same situation.
But, of course, what triggered, I don't have a, like, this amazing story that I saw some, like, meteorite, or I saw the stars, or something like that. As long as my memories go, it has been internal thing just like like, you know, I was born in 81, and, somehow, I've always thought about just going to space and taking it as a natural thing.
Like, that's the difference that I have sometimes hardship to call, but when I talk to, like, friends or or some other people, and we know he was especially young, that, for many people, space force, like, far fantasy and cold. For me, it was always, like, warm, hopeful, and something natural. It was like another continent going to space, like, undiscovered country, and it's it's a matter of time that we go. And I I in in that sense, if I may continue, I I like to view Sure.
Sure. View that, we think that going to the continents, others, like, was building a sailing, sailing ships and and this, and now going to the space, like, yeah. Yeah. It's much harder. Like, it's totally different thing. But I think that it's not, in in time wise, the, thinking about the exponential technology development that we live in in this time now, it it makes actually, time wise, it linear also, the development.
Because the technology changes so fast, okay, the reusable rockets is just the beginning and everything, but material technology or other capabilities that enable it. So we are seeing next years and next decades so exciting times, and I think as you said in the beginning the things that can screw up that are like political turmoils world war 3 or some of these kind of a cataclysmic global economic meltdown that the 2018 recession would be like just like kindergarten stuff.
I like the word, I like how you said it always warm hopeful and natural which is an interesting way to look at space, at least from my perspective. So you say it's a necessity. Why is it why in your opinion is it a necessity? Well, I I I think it's in in, as I said, like, in human nature to go new frontiers, whether whatever triggers it as you said, like, whether it would be, like, new resources or something, finding something new, being curious.
It can have different motivations that set it up, and of course it, needs to be when going to space in a sustainable way and not just visiting there. So of course, then you come to economics and and something very practical terms, but I think the necessity is, means if you think about the globalization of the of the world at the moment, okay, old term, but now it's like happening so much more forcefully, like, let's say 10 years ago or 100 years ago and everything.
The globalization of course started already when we have the sailing ships or means to like go around the world or transferring information around the world. But now that we have the internet, we have the social media, not just like calling, texting, we have immersive ways to, connect with people all around the world, that means, affecting our societal fabrics in the way that, nation states, lose in certain way or transform, like, lose meaning, but also drag transform in in certain ways.
Because, before you had, like, let's say, well, Americans might not be the best example in that way because American is like a melting pot and a very unique thing and and and great thing that it's built on immigration immigrants.
But whether it's Finland, whether it's, like, France, Japan, or whatever, other countries, let's say, you have a group of people that if you dissect them, they have different kind of people and and subgroups and and interest, but there's a certain societal norms that homogenize a little bit the the the population.
Now, we are like living at the brink of the time, that that we are losing a lot of that, because if you think about young people or millennials, but also affecting older peoples, People have different kind of desires, hopes, and interest, and you can find your community, and belong your community, and that community isn't bind to the nation states. It can be like, global, and you can belong into different many kind of groups.
So it changes identities from nation based identities to more like community based, identities. And in in that sense, when we look what is happening now in the world, and we are having bumps and hiccups and and, like, pendulum movements, like, whether it's, Trump's or or Brexit's or or the, populist right wing movements in Europe or wherever, those are just like backslashes and something bumps on the roads, in the inevitable, societal effects and globalization.
But, I think, you and many people agree that this is a time where we need this kind of a lasting moon landing unifying effect, call it from the overview effect that astronauts have, the unity aspects, the new perspectives that seeing us, as a one planet, as as an earth and one nation, rather than, multiple nations acting like teenagers. So going to space can, and and will bring us that kind of a global, change in the mindset, and and that is the necessity.
One of the necessities why we need to do that. Okay. So let's move on to the 3 pillars driving space. What are those 3? I'm really interested in hearing these. Yeah. The the 3 pillars, and and this is as I said, like, my opinion that I've identified that, first of of course is like the technology one.
So meaning reusable rockets, miniaturizing, technology, waste technology wise to get the price points and course to get to space lower but also creating new capabilities and opportunities in space so that we can do their things that we couldn't before because we lack the technology, whether it was material technology, whether it was something, related to 3 d printing and manufacturing, whatever.
And, and the second pillar is, and, and the first one, that pillar is basically most perhaps like looked and and and understood. The second is a bit more difficult.
It it it means, the governmental collaboration, and I'm not just meaning between each government, which after the cold war started when we built the international space station and and it's even if like Russia and US has problems in the political sense otherwise the the in the space exploration and cooperation in the international space station it's it's almost perfectly still working.
And that kind of of course in the future is more important when we venture deeper in the space but also the collaboration between the commercial companies and allowing the competition happened there. And that was the big change. So we wouldn't have without that companies like SpaceX, of course, like, Blue Origin can be like, a bit different, because the world's richest person owns it, and and has the own capital to do whatever with that if if he he likes.
But for example, SpaceX is is tied to like, government contracts, which bring the most of the money. So, if, let's say US government wouldn't have allowed, to break the the oligopolic system or monopolistic system of like Boeing and Lockheed Martin, we would have higher prices in going to space and it wouldn't have been like changing. So innovation and renewing and disrupting industries needs the competition and healthy competition.
The 3rd pillar, I think is always most neglected and and, like, left alone and and, because also it's a bit harder to understand, but is basically we the people, meaning that, getting the message, why we go to space, why we need to go to space, why what are the benefits here on earth about it? How can I as an everyday person be part of this new space era or space exploration? Why should I care?
Getting big public engaged and and we see it already like, whether it was the moon landings that people were so thrilled in the beginning and everything, then we went again to the moon and again, and I think was it the 3rd or which, time that we went to the moon that people didn't care about the life, camera feeds from the trip anymore and and and they cut it. Oh, I've I've never I've never heard that. Yeah. I've never heard that. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They it was, I don't know.
Was it Apollo 17 or something? Be like, in the middle of the show, they cut it off and and didn't want to tell the astronauts, and then they showed, I think, some sports or something in the middle.
But so, getting people more and more involved because, if you don't have the we the people the public involved and engaged, it's so much more harder and slows down, whether it's the funding of space agencies, whether it's the demand for the private space companies also, because whether it's a might not be so direct effect, but indirectly it creates demand also, and the demand is the big problem for example, lower orbit economy that is in the strategic goals of NASA and other space agencies, that we need to transform the earth's orbit in a commercial private company driven economy, and in a way that it is sustainable, without as little subsidies or anything that that that we could have so that the resources of government, would be freed, to go to the moon and beyond.
And and yeah. It's that's such an interesting point. I have not heard that Apollo 17 in the cutoff, whatever number it may be, the the flight that you're talking about. Because what comes to mind immediately are, a few things. Actually, it's not sorry. No. I remember. Upload 13, I think it was. So 11, 12, and 13. Yeah.
I put a I remember reading just recently about how challenging it was for the one of the brothers of the the twins to live in the International Space Station for a year, and how how difficult it was on his body, and how difficult it was to experience that whole endeavor. And there's potentially, space is an exciting venture while its rockets being tossed up and and all of the other actions or visible activities we can see.
And at the end of the day, what will make us do it differently this time around? Well, the technology and the means to connect whoever globally people even live and instantly to the space exploration.
So you have, mobile devices and and you have a r and vr and and live feeds and and telecom connections that you couldn't have dreamed of, like in in 50 years ago or even like 10 or 20 years ago, and that enables basically that we can emerge when done in a right way, the whole world into the space exploration this time.
And and you can have whether it's onboard the international space station, whether it is on the moon, you could even have like one individual, like, remotely control something down here from earth.
So so you can the possibilities that we can now do technology wise is huge, and I think that, what is slowing us down in that front at the moment, is the burden and illusions of history because we went to the moon 50 years ago, we haven't gone back, we don't have space space cities, we didn't go moors, why would anything change now?
I know, I mean most of the people doesn't know that we have even have an international space station which is like the largest, peacetime human international built structure in human history. So so, like, it's unbelievable.
But the, because we view that nothing hasn't changed and people don't expect, so people are expecting that nothing isn't happening anytime soon, and that affects that not, the brilliant minds that build the moon going to the moon, the 25 to 30 year old engineers, they are doing other stuff because they don't see the opportunities yet so well in the space, but I think in the next couple of years that's all gonna change, and the prelude was like a sports car in space, but when blue ridgings and virgin galactic sun start to send people, it becomes real, and people will wake awake at that point.
And this is also in the investor side. So, I was, for example, last summer in a space panel on on european businessentials, like, annual conference and we were talking talking about space investment and and still they think that you need to have like 100 of 1,000,000 into go to space business and the truth is that you can go with $100,000 into space business. Building apps for example, from the observational data, which is like, in some parts free from in Europe.
So people don't know these opportunities and what is happening, but, we need to get the message out, and and they will see when it happens also in this year and next year. It's interesting as as you're laying this out. I'm I'm going to be honest with you because it's it's something that I don't wanna say but I think I should say. When the Internet when SpaceX rocket went up, when it's just the heavy went up, I didn't watch it.
I'd actually didn't watch it the next day or a few days later until I said to myself, I have to watch this thing. It wasn't a draw for me even though for 4 years I've been working in the space industry. For 4 years I've been working with people who are excited about space, it still didn't have that, oh my god, pull to it. So I I there's 7,500,000,000 people on this planet.
And as you said, many people don't know that the International Space Station is one of the largest peacetime endeavors ever using multi, geographic, countries collaborating. And so I think there's an excitement that happens in the space, especially in the space sector. That's very exciting. And I think that you're bringing up that you can get into it for a $100,000 makes it even more alluring to grow the ecosystem.
It's just that I I did from the people that I hang out with, and these are people who are running $100,000,000, $8,000,000, $800,000,000, $100,000,000, $1,000,000,000 companies, no one spoke about it. Nobody was talking about it which I think is amazing as you're saying it. I'm thinking back. If I knew that everybody was watching it, I would have had to watch it. Yet I didn't hear anybody talking about it until I tuned into the people that I know.
That's a excellent pause point and and right to the heart of the matter, and and actually, means as as what I'm talking about the prelude because, that is something that spilled over from the space gigs and space nerds and these kind of things a bit like made it closer, because it had a sports car, and it it has the, mannequin there or this and, and and had the space auditors singing and everything. But still, it was very, like, spacey thing. It was very, far thing or cold thing.
But but I I I'd say that, it it wasn't just for the space kicks and everything, but that's what needs to happen basically, that we need to bring space close to people, make it warm, make it close, Make it in a way present that what is relevant to people's everyday life. And you actually have those kind of connections, a lot whatever, you are in.
So whether it's something that we use technology is created in space already in our everyday lives or where it's like, tying and presenting people, like, how, like, fashion here and how space fashion and these kind of things. It this channel 5, or the channel, like, high fashion brand, had a, like, a space, space fashion show last, was it fall? Yeah. And and these kind of things are basically the the signals that it's coming to, like, close to popular things that are close to people.
So It's it's it's close. It's I and I I, I've often found for companies, organizations, opportunities they might not may they might miss. Your words were warm, hopeful, and natural. Yeah. And it needs to be presented in that way. Those are the 3 words that you use, and you need to present it in those in that exact same way. It's take it used to be cold and used to and I can we can play this back and get them. Yet you always saw it as always saw it as warm, hopeful, and natural.
So I would use that in your Space Nation development because I think it's a great way to emphasize where you come from, the the reason why, the the background, and the the texture of your of your endeavor, which I think would be helpful. Just a it's just a suggestion. You don't have to take it. I just think it's I like those words. I think it meant a lot as you said it. So, those words resonated with me. Thank you. Because I I I we use a lot like OI.
It was like in many times close, warm, and relatable. But it's it's good that you took me back to the roots because, like, natural, hopeful, and warm sounds so much. No. No. No. Not natural, hopeful, and warm. It's warm, hopeful, and natural. The reason is the warm makes you immediately have a sensation in your body. When you say hopeful, it's aspirational. And then natural says, wait, wait, wait. That fits into who we are. So that order is useful.
There's in and then we'll get back to the interview. There's something that I've named called aimed, a I m e d. If you wanna have something that's powerful, have it aspirational, inspirational, motivational, educational, and directional. That's a accent. So aimed is the term that I I came up with it because I was tired of trying to put things together in my own head, and I said it's called aimed.
So in yours, it is aspirational, inspirational, motivational, educational, and directional because it is talking about space. So I think those warm, hopeful and natural. So let's get to let's get on to the why the moon and how? Yeah. So in in short, the moon is key to sustainability for humanity to go to space and to get the benefits then back here on earth, down to the earth for everyone.
And okay, we told why the necessity part I talked about the aspects of overview effect and this unity effect for borderless thinking about us as a humanity.
But we now might talk more about the practical more in a practical sense that I think that the more going to space and going to the moon, it's about the prosperity, whether it's the economy, whether it's the creativity, technological achievement, development, and of course, then the societal effects all whole 9 yards like, in a pervasive way that we benefit out of that. But the moon is special if we wouldn't have the moon there, it would make so so much harder us to go to space.
And of course, if you go to other sciences, you can argue that would would we have life as we know without the moon, because of the tidal waves and and certain gravitational things that it affects, certain chemical processes and and what's not here down on earth. But let Our next guest our next guest is Neil Cummins who wrote a book, what would happen if the moon did not exist? Excellent. So So I I don't go there. He I I leave it to him that part. But, talking about them, us us going to space.
So why it is so important? Mainly, it has to do with the gravity well. So meaning that, getting stuff from down here surface of the earth to even to the low earth orbit, like, couple of 100 kilometers or miles above the ground, it needs a lot of energy, not a fuel.
And and even if you get, like, rockets refuse reusable, that's the cost of the fuel and and that energy needed to, like, steal that then, limits again is the next limit, basically, that we need to get over with, and we will actually, and there's ways to do that. But, so, getting to the lower orbit and escaping earth's gravity and getting higher and higher from that gravity well where we are at the bottom, to the moon needs even more energy.
And and, if we are basing our space exploration going to the moon, mars and beyond, creating space industries and and manufacturing in space, and and even dreaming that we, transfer the polluting, manufacturing here from surface of the Earth in some, future to the space. That's not very practical, very feasible. But the moon changes everything because moon is a gas station.
There's water you can make, okay, like life supporting aspects, like water use there, get get oxygen, but you can make rocket for. And the other thing, there's a construction material, and the third thing, it doesn't have such a gravity well and pull as earth. So in almost like simply put, you can create stuff on moon, you can, make fuel there and just kick it out of the moon and it falls back to Earth. It's all over simplify. And and that No. No. I've I've I've said this exact same thing.
I've said if you took a marble and you flicked it hard enough and it got out of the moon's very limited, gravity well, it would eventually fall to Earth. Now it could take a very, very long time Yeah. But it's going to come to us. Yeah. So all these aspects that it's a gas station, it's a construction station, it's of course training ground for our, settlement into, to further in deep space and Mars and beyond, and of course, it's a scientific research post.
So so actually, we went like a certain amount of times to the moon, but like, the the, we could have done it, in hindsight better, when thinking about scientific research and and much of the the moon is still like, there's a lot to scientifically research there also. And to use, of course, the dark side of the moon, where there isn't like radio, pollution in in the sense like, here on earth or or light pollution.
So, observe observations or or radio telescopes or these, it's an ideal place, of course, also. But Yep. I gotta stop you, Kale. Before we go on any further Yeah. You just called it you called it the dark side instead of the far side. I I have I've been razzed. I've been picked on. In the beginning, I would say the the dark side of the moon. And no. No. No. You can't say that. You can't say that. And here you are saying it. That that that yeah. Yeah. That I'm laughing.
Yeah. Yeah. That that that's true. Like yeah. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. Maybe. It's over the dark side makes sense, but it's just funny because I have been so careful not to call it that, and then you throw it out and you've been the space lover forever. Yeah. I actually like it's, to if if we are pedantic or something, the dark side is not a good, like term of it because it's not always dark. But, the, it's dark for us or, like, let's say that it's, we don't see it.
Well, it's it's in Hong Kong, we have the dark side when you go over to Kowloon. People it just sounds bad. It sounds ominous. So I love that you used it. So I have to stop at that. So continue on.
So the moon is viable for these 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 different or 6, which is, hydrogen oxygen construction material, no gravity limited gravity well, training ground scientific research and the fact that it has an alternative side, the far side or the dark side, where there's no radio and light pollution so that you can perform scientific tests. You can do all sorts of things differently than you would on on the, the side facing the earth.
Yeah. But the big big thing maybe like to con, concentrate concentrate on these is, the part of the gas station and construction. So basically everything, on the earth's orbit, low earth orbit or higher orbits, in the future, we are going to build that on the moon or from the materials of the moon, and also use it as a gas station to get out of from the low earth orbit, to the moon, but also then beyond.
And without that, it would be so so much harder and slower and economically, like less feasible. And that is the big thing that, I think, and and a very hopeful thing and and and promising thing because as I said in the beginning, I think it's for human race. It's certain kind of a race against the clock.
If you don't go into space, get the new perspective, get the prosperity, whether it is resource wise or or energy wise, I I I might see that, the hopes of, us, like, thriving as a humanity would be like, very, very much lowered. That, have you have you read the book 7 eves? No, I haven't. 7 Eves, more or less the moon gets broken up and disappears. And it is a book about humanity's transition into space because of that situation.
It's a it's a I've at least 12 people had asked me to read it, and then finally I said I've gotta read this book. So you might wanna look it up. 7 Eves is what it's called. Yeah. Okay. So so in terms of the so that's the why the moon. How? How what is your solution to getting there compared to everybody else? I I don't know if it is, like drastically, different, but, it it goes like, in that way that we have to now, strive to get that, low earth, orbit sustainable commercial economy.
Now that's a mouthful, but, like, having that private companies run that and and of course there's a collaboration with governments and and certain things that government is a client and customer there also but then going to the moon needs to be a cooperation with the governments, the space agencies and the private companies. Okay, we see now the deep space gateway happening with Nasa and Russians and I think like there will be others in part of that and I think japan was part of that.
But then the settlement on the moon. Okay, we as a space nation have certain plans of that that we can tell we'll we'll be telling later this year out. But also like european space agencies has of course moon village things and these, but then, where the money comes is china and the chinese space agency, but it will be also a corporation of all space agencies, I'm sure of that. But then also with the private companies, whether it's blue origins, spacex's and this.
So okay, that is how we get there and everything. But the important part of it all is how to create as you know that sustainable economy around this and low authorities in our crafts faster and it takes a bit more time with the moon and you need the subsidies and and and bigger customer as a government to be part of their eventually we will get there and then of course once again government and private companies go to the Mars and beyond.
But the the economy is tied in the space or lower lower orbit already. It's profitable to make like fiber optics there because of the microgravity makes the quality so much higher than here down on earth. I think like the infrared light goes into that inside that fiber optics, even organ printing because like manufacturing and printing objects that are like hollow inside or like not solid is easier in microgravity.
So we will get like our hearts and and that's actually a warming and hopeful thing also, in the future from the orbit. And all these these things and and we can now know some of these, but, it's like the analogy, like, Internet in the nineties, that you knew that it's gonna change everything.
But, it would be a bit to ask at that in the nineties, like middle of nineties that so tell me what kind of new ventures and innovations will there be and expecting the answer to be like facebook twitter or or like Airbnb or or these kind of things. Well, Amazon's even. So so yeah. The the, the number and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the number is 300 it's a $330,000,000,000 industry today. Yep. The low earth orbit is 330,000,000,000.
Oh, so based on the a small industry today. Yep. Yeah. And it's gonna grow, like, estimated now, but, like, those estimates, of course, are like, projections are going to change and and probably getting like faster bigger than they believe, but 1.51,000,000,000,000,000, it was something like, was it 2,030 and then 3.3 1,000,000,000,000,000, in in, 2,040 or 50, something like that are with the current estimates.
But I think they those are going to change because also the what you count in the space industry.
So I think what what we are not anticipating yet are, the uses and experiences that we can create, whether it is for, entertainment, educational purposes or whatever, and and entertainment or fun learning and this kind of things that we also as a space nation work in that realm to bring close to everyday people basically because most of the space industry what we are talking is just of course like business to business things and and it makes sense in the past place but now the technology has enabled that we can create okay send even more people as a space tourists or visitors into space in the future but we can also connect, in ways, large masses of people with a r v r or like we are providing astronaut training and and chance to go to space, for global audiences.
So where do you draw the line between like, to score, like, terrestrial to call like terrestrial uses and terrestrial experiences built on on the space exploration basically. But yeah, so the moon basically, the big thing is it enables all that economy to scale up basically. So so without that the scaling up, whether it's the law or bits getting their space stations manufacturing, it would be so much more cost costly thing to do without the moon.
So when we build the moon settlement, all the construction manufacturing gas station things and everything, we can then build the space elevators on moon and and earth, and then get a one again scale price point reduction in in getting stuff to space or people to space. And and that's gonna change everything once again. The if we can go back for a second, I've been holding on this. You talked about the Moon Village, which I know is going through some transitions already with its board.
And then you mentioned the Chinese Space Agency. Yep. And you highlighted it. So give me what your what's your take? What's your feeling? What's what have you learned that I should know? We should know? Yeah. So the China has, like, well, you, of course, know know China probably better than I, but, like, I I'm learning I'm learning from you. You've been your Yeah. But but in any case, China, China is patient when setting goals.
And and I firmly believe that the goals that they have set for space exploration or or using space and and the opportunities there will be drastically changed in few years when they see certain kind of proof of concepts and pilots, they will scale up that and they can do that when they see the opportunity and feasibility, whether it's building the moon settlement, whether it's mining something or manufacturing in space, they have the political means and will and financial capabilities to do almost anything.
And I believe that that when what is happening now, okay, like driven in in us space private space companies and in europe and everywhere else, when we are seeing these changes in the upcoming next few years and 5 at the most China is going to like double down and put a lot lot more funding in in going to space and and the ideas of sending people to moon 2000 30s is going to happen much, much faster. And and that's my take on on what's gonna happen with the Spanish, Chinese, space exploration.
Is there one specific thing in China? Very short, one specific thing in China that made you or makes you feel that this will happen? And before you answer that, I'm only throwing out Xi Jinping's announcement or more or less his position that he's going to be continuing his role. There's a lot of AI activity happening in China that is not exactly towards western world's beliefs, positive.
And there's a challenge economically through China for, in many reasons, in many ways because of the banking system. So what makes you feel so confident in China being the one who's going to drive a lot of this? Well, one, of course, is is kind of this this mini space race. You might say that, because of the 2010 elections and what happened to the after that and and this America first mentality, China was like not included in the international space station.
And and what, of course, Chinese hate the most and and and you don't ever do to Chinese is them losing their face. And and at that point, you did that. And, so they sprung more resources and and out of that to build their own space stations, basically. And they're now building, of course, them and and already have like whether you call it space lab or space station there.
But it's the general thing is, as we said, looking all this big infrastructure developments or all all the big, well, well, infrastructure is actually the best example. So thinking the bullet trends, for example, they've been laying out around like, is it 25 or 30,000 kilometers of of bullet train tracks in the past 3, 4 years. I don't remember how many countless of tens of 1,000,000,000 or 100 of 1,000,000,000 that course and this year they're making like 4,000 kilometers more of that.
At the time I of course like was started to think how much there is in us and and like tweeted about it that is there even bullet trains in us And someone answered that that No. There there is not. Yeah. So so There's prop there's all reasons property rights. Actually, to some degree, what the Americans did is, US took the technology from Europe and from China, and they brought it to the States, but they could not use it the same way. So they had to modify it.
And the modification, everything was failing. Yeah. Because there's no straightaways. They don't have the Americas doesn't have the property rights and the ability, such as China, to say we're just moving you out of the way to keep this train going fast. So so in the last few minutes that we've got, if you were to share something amazing that's happening that you think that I should know about that you would say, this is really really exciting. What would be one thing you wanna share with me?
That that's a good question. I, I I think it is, what what I've been seeing doing, what I'm doing, and and the change in in the last 5 years and and that is like accelerating just now in the past like year and 2, the change in mindsets in in space industry and everyday people basically towards the the towards space. So meaning the amazing change how like NASA and and the cultural changes that there has happened in the past, let's say even 2 years.
And also at the same time, what is starting to happen with the general public and and whether it is talking about the the sports car going to mars, but also, there are signals all the time that I'm pumping totally different way, in the general public engagement, involvement, and fascination about the new space era than what was like 5 years ago or even a few years ago.
And, that development, I think, is going to hugely, like, ignite, when Virgin Galactic and Blue Origin start to fly people to space. That that's the most exciting Maybe maybe I'm wrong, but Virgin's Virgin wants to stay within atmosphere as of now. They wanna they would like to do satellites into orbit, but they really wanna stay in, atmosphere. Blue Origin is a different story.
So I guess my what I'm seeing, and this is this is not to be controversial to end it with a controversial note, it's just the question, is that I see a lot of money pouring into a lot of venture, a lot of activities that we're not going to be seeing any activity out of them for 15 years. That these things that people are professing and getting funding for, it's exciting. It sounds good on paper.
Yep, We're still trying to get a rocket out once again in the same way that we used to to be able to get to the moon and and do the others. What do you what's your take even though this is a lot of excitement? Are you also seeing a lot of excitement the wrong way? Yes. That that's a good point.
So that that's actually an excellent so what we haven't touched about is that, I I think that, these new companies ventures, they still, like, they are painted that these are new companies and business and private companies. But when you look at them, not many have real business models or returns on investments and something or sustainable models. And and that is amazes actually me in a negative way in a sense.
But I think there lies the thing that might be the most amazing thing that comes out of this all that in the next, year or couple of years, I I predict that we are going to see the first like really feasible space ventures that might not be okay.
Some might be that has happening in 10 15 years 20 years or but there's a like realistic road maps to make money early on and have business models and revenue models that are sustainable and and that by that I get back to the analogy about the internet like that. The technology, the capabilities, opportunities that we can do, especially on low earth orbit are so hugely different now and getting the even more different, year by year than 10, 15, 20 years ago.
And it's just waiting for new brilliant minds to build businesses on top of that. And and when it bursts, it will burst and there will be a lot. So, one final note or or statistics. Sure. Sure. There was 127 space companies in 2,010. 127 in in the world. Now there is over 1,000, and it is predicted that in in, like, less than 10 years, there's 10,000. So the more we get their entrepreneurs, more that there comes entrepreneurs, like me, totally outside from space industry.
I believe that that creates a disruption and and something that creates, real businesses that are not relied just from government money. Well, you're talking to the choir here. Yeah. Project Moon Project Moon Hut Foundation is part of that, and we're collaborating you and I together right now. So, yes, this is this is great, Kale. I really appreciate you taking the time to go over your, your thoughts on how we're going to move from where we were to why the moon and and how we should approach it.
So I I definitely love the conversation today. So thank you very much. Thank you very much, David. Well, the if you've liked these, podcasts, there's obviously many more that we have up for you to listen to. You have the ability to work with us, to connect with us through Space Nation as well as through project moonhat.org. And it's it's space spacenation.com. Correct? Dot org. Dotorg also. Spacenation.org. Projectmoonhot.org. And you can sign up for, our future related, database project.
You could also find us on facebook.com, projectforward/projectmoonhot, as well as you can connect with us on Twitter at projectmoonhot. So to everybody out there who's listening, thank you for taking the time. Hope you learned a lot from the time that you spent with us. And I'm David Goldsmith, and thank you for listening. Hello everyone. This is David Goldsmith and welcome to the Project Moon Hut podcast series, The Age of Infinite.
We're looking to learn from individuals all over the world how we can better and more rapidly establish sustainable life on the moon and how we can improve our ecosystem on earth so we can make that happen with the end result being that we change how we live on earth for all species. Well, today we have another fantastic guest on the line. His name, and I hope I don't screw this up, is Kale, Vaha Yakola. Excellent. Did I do it okay? Perfect. Ex okay.
He's from, from Helsinki, Finland, and he's the captain and co founder of Space Nation, which has today approximately 50 to 60,000, let's call them subscribers, with a similar directive, different than ours but similar, that he wanted to accelerate humanity's transition into the new space era. So welcome to the show. Thank you, David. A pleasure to be on the show. Well, I I we just had a small conversation beforehand. He's I've got water because I sometimes recommend people get water.
He's got coffee, 2 cups of them. So if he gets a little hyper, we can slow him down. Tell him not to drink the coffee. Yeah. Yeah. So, do you have an outline for us to work off of, some bullet points that we're gonna be covering? Yeah. I have a few. I have 3, actually. And, first one is basically that, I believe and we believe that going to space isn't just inevitable, but a necessity for the whole humanity. And the second bullet point is that, there are 3 pillars driving humanity to space.
And and the third one, why moon and how? Okay. Let's start with this first one then. Go into space, is not only inevitable but it is necessary. So what do you mean by that? That's a big a big statement. That that is a big statement. So basically, that, I view that, humanity as a race or species or society going to space is just a matter of time.
That is as as long as I've been, like, alive and my memories go, I felt it in the bones and everything, and and what I've learned has just emphasized it.
So, thinking about the space race going to the moon, and and these first being, politically driven races, and and these kind of things, but what we also see now what is happening, that we truly are in that, most interesting era when it comes to space exploration, and settling in space that we live in that, like like, it would have been fun to see personally, us going to the moon, but I think, like, this is the most, interesting and exciting time to be alive when considering humanity's transportation space.
Did you just say I think I heard what you said. So let me make sure to clarify. You think it would have been interesting if that we could have gone to the moon. So I think what you're are you trying to say and tell me if I'm wrong, you're asking you're saying you wish you were a little bit further down the line and that you had actually you get to experience it today. Is that what you're saying?
Yeah. Oh oh, I'm when we went in the sixties, like, the moon to see it personally and being alive in that, that time would be have been interesting and fun. But I see that this time where we live is much more exciting, because now we are going there, to stay and not just to visit. So it was almost like 50 years ago that we were there last time. And, I think that It it is it is 50 years. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
It's a lot and, you know, that a lot of people are very disappointed, so it might not have been a good time. That group of individuals, when you talk to them, they're not happy. Yeah. They they don't they don't know how 50 years disappeared, and we are just starting to see the ignition of this race, this space, excitement again. So Exactly. And that's might might be very Phineas like angle, but that frustration is basically fueling and accelerating the development too.
There there was born that generation that saw saw it is like, they were stolen the future that they were promised. It it's, of course, like a kind of a cliche, those who know, the the statement, but, then also the the generations afterwards. Like, if we talk about whether it's, Elon Musk's or Jeff Bezos or other ones that that, grew up reading like, well, the sci fi literature and, waiting like space cities and moon cities and these.
And and that was when I was born in in the 81, and, grew up on eighties. I was, like, expecting that when are we on Mars? When when do we have space cities? When when we have permanent settlements in the moon?
And then in the nineties, I I was starting to be aware more about things, and understanding about why the space race happened, why we aren't there, there's a matter of course, and certain hardships in going there, and everything, but, now in the past 10 15 years, that that's all been radically changed, and, most of the people doesn't know about it. And it's very logical. Why not? Basically. Well, it it yet at the same time, is there a chance? I don't know. I'm just asking your opinion of this.
Is there a chance we could screw it up again? Definitely. So, kind of, I, myself going in into a certain center of the whole development of this and and human human space flight, and and this, that was kind of the first things also I learned that, it might seem outside when looking like, sports cars flying to the Mars and these kind of things that that it's going well, and it is in a way, but, behind the scenes, it's scary how, fragile it is also.
Meaning that there's just a small group of people driving it, and and thinking about the resources and the money in it, compared to whether it's the classic military budget of US or the whole wealth of of the planet. It's it's such a small fraction that actually goes into humanity going to space at the moment compared to everything else.
And and, if if the business models basically, that are very fragile and new in there because before it was, mostly about government, driven things, and and now we are talking about commercial space. So we are taking the first steps, but we might crumble, and and the crumbling might, like, mean, decade, like, or decades even, slowing down the transition. But I guess we are jumping to the next, point of my bullet point already.
So let's let's so let no. Let's get back to the inevitable because the the launch that just happened with Elon was an incredible feat that that has happened. At the same time, some of the commentators were that I was listening to started to say, well, first of all, the United Launch Alliance has had a 100% success rate. They have had challenges. They are cheaper today, and the Elon Musk is gonna catch up very quickly.
That's not to say that in that something else could happen, be it geopolitically, politically, militarily. The world's unstable. So when you say it's inevitable, do you mean it's inevitable sometime in the future, or are you saying it's inevitable now? Sometime in the future. It looks strong now in a way even if it's there's a fragile things and risks in world, but there's always risk on going to space and new frontiers.
But, the inevitable in meaning that it's a matter of time, but I but I think in that sense also that, there are it's a race against time in a way also as a society, and there we come into the matter of necessity. So, thinking about human human, humans as a group of individuals and as a as a society and civilization, I believe that it's in our DNA that we are explorers. We we can't stay too long in confined spaces.
We, say say it bluntly, we, like, stagnate and and we kill each other if we are taken into a confined space, and there's no like room to explore, and and the mentality is whether we talk about micro world, so meaning like long ago. What is behind that hill? What is behind the next hill?
What is behind the sea and such thinking, but also like, searching new frontiers whether it is in the microscopic world, and it doesn't mean that we all are like that, but as a society there are always a group of individuals that, want to find something new, and the big masses if they don't act they still dream about something new, and hopeful, and inspirational, and certain parts of that we saw also in the moon landings, that how it affected the society, and the whole humanity as a a whole even if it was a blink moment of history.
But, yeah. It's an it's an interesting comment that is I never thought about it until just as the moment you said it. You said it's in our DNA. Yes. And if I I started and yet when you defined it, you said some of us have it and some of us do not. It's well So I guess I guess the question is it might not be in our DNA. It might be because we see scarce resources. It might be because we, are curious. It might be because some people like to own things or control things.
I I'm not exactly sure if it's in our DNA, or is it is it an is it an offshoot of our DNA? Well, that that's fair fair enough. I think, like, it is, as you said, it is about curiosity. So the curiosity, drives the exploration, drives the innovation. And, I think that, what I'm referring that, if some people doesn't act in so much, it it might be, like, more in a dormant for them, and and some might be, like, triggered or activated and and, act on it more.
And it it's it's kind of the same way if you talk about, like, entrepreneurship or, similar things in that that sense, that also the environment where you come from might like, how do you say, like put it down a little bit. So for example, I come from the part in Finland that, let's say, that positive encouragement wasn't a very, like, abundant thing.
So, like, doing new stuff and crazy stuff or or making a space company wasn't something that, as a big farmer's son, you were so much like encouraged on, and it might not always be like, there isn't that, the mentality that the encouragement, but because it is unknown and uncertainties and these.
But, there will always be those, courageous individuals or those that, whatever the reason that it triggers, the need to exploration, and and whether it's, like, we see sending sports cars into space or other things, it still ignites that in in the whole other society also.
And and you can So go in the history to see it about, like, whether it was, the areas of going to America or or whatever, like, these kind of pioneers going, it it, affected the societies as a whole and give inspiration, dreams, and hopes, and and sex. So so what what happened with you? I mean, I I hope your parents are never gonna listen to this interview, because you just told them that they didn't get much encourage give you much encouragement. As a society.
What happened to you as your background is in the sciences? What made what sparked your creativity? What made it change that you were interested enough to say you wanted to build a new organization to help promote this? Well, I well, to to say about my parents actually, like, I owe them, like, a lot than all, in in that way to say that, even though they were like farmers, and and I come from 3,000 people village and farm village.
They didn't understand when I was like, as long as my memory is called like drawing rockets and talking about space and learning about every space book and libraries and and ordering around the Finland, all space books in the eighties. But they like, allowed me to do that. They they basically didn't, say that don't do that. You should do like other kids and some something like that. So I was very fortunate in that way, but I saw a lot of other people and kids that wasn't in the same situation.
But, of course, what triggered, I don't have a, like, this amazing story that I saw some, like, meteorite, or I saw the stars, or something like that. As long as my memories go, it has been internal thing just like like, you know, I was born in 81, and, somehow, I've always thought about just going to space and taking it as a natural thing.
Like, that's the difference that I have sometimes hardship to call, but when I talk to, like, friends or or some other people, and we know he was especially young, that, for many people, space force, like, far fantasy and cold. For me, it was always, like, warm, hopeful, and something natural. It was like another continent going to space, like, undiscovered country, and it's it's a matter of time that we go. And I I in in that sense, if I may continue, I I like to view Sure.
Sure. View that, we think that going to the continents, others, like, was building a sailing, sailing ships and and this, and now going to the space, like, yeah. Yeah. It's much harder. Like, it's totally different thing. But I think that it's not, in in time wise, the, thinking about the exponential technology development that we live in in this time now, it it makes actually, time wise, it linear also, the development.
Because the technology changes so fast, okay, the reusable rockets is just the beginning and everything, but material technology or other capabilities that enable it. So we are seeing next years and next decades so exciting times, and I think as you said in the beginning the things that can screw up that are like political turmoils world war 3 or some of these kind of a cataclysmic global economic meltdown that the 2018 recession would be like just like kindergarten stuff.
I like the word, I like how you said it always warm hopeful and natural which is an interesting way to look at space, at least from my perspective. So you say it's a necessity. Why is it why in your opinion is it a necessity? Well, I I I think it's in in, as I said, like, in human nature to go new frontiers, whether whatever triggers it as you said, like, whether it would be, like, new resources or something, finding something new, being curious.
It can have different motivations that set it up, and of course it, needs to be when going to space in a sustainable way and not just visiting there. So of course, then you come to economics and and something very practical terms, but I think the necessity is, means if you think about the globalization of the of the world at the moment, okay, old term, but now it's like happening so much more forcefully, like, let's say 10 years ago or 100 years ago and everything.
The globalization of course started already when we have the sailing ships or means to like go around the world or transferring information around the world. But now that we have the internet, we have the social media, not just like calling, texting, we have immersive ways to, connect with people all around the world, that means, affecting our societal fabrics in the way that, nation states, lose in certain way or transform, like, lose meaning, but also drag transform in in certain ways.
Because, before you had, like, let's say, well, Americans might not be the best example in that way because American is like a melting pot and a very unique thing and and and great thing that it's built on immigration immigrants.
But whether it's Finland, whether it's, like, France, Japan, or whatever, other countries, let's say, you have a group of people that if you dissect them, they have different kind of people and and subgroups and and interest, but there's a certain societal norms that homogenize a little bit the the the population.
Now, we are like living at the brink of the time, that that we are losing a lot of that, because if you think about young people or millennials, but also affecting older peoples, People have different kind of desires, hopes, and interest, and you can find your community, and belong your community, and that community isn't bind to the nation states. It can be like, global, and you can belong into different many kind of groups.
So it changes identities from nation based identities to more like community based, identities. And in in that sense, when we look what is happening now in the world, and we are having bumps and hiccups and and, like, pendulum movements, like, whether it's, Trump's or or Brexit's or or the, populist right wing movements in Europe or wherever, those are just like backslashes and something bumps on the roads, in the inevitable, societal effects and globalization.
But, I think, you and many people agree that this is a time where we need this kind of a lasting moon landing unifying effect, call it from the overview effect that astronauts have, the unity aspects, the new perspectives that seeing us, as a one planet, as as an earth and one nation, rather than, multiple nations acting like teenagers. So going to space can, and and will bring us that kind of a global, change in the mindset, and and that is the necessity.
One of the necessities why we need to do that. Okay. So let's move on to the 3 pillars driving space. What are those 3? I'm really interested in hearing these. Yeah. The the 3 pillars, and and this is as I said, like, my opinion that I've identified that, first of of course is like the technology one.
So meaning reusable rockets, miniaturizing, technology, waste technology wise to get the price points and course to get to space lower but also creating new capabilities and opportunities in space so that we can do their things that we couldn't before because we lack the technology, whether it was material technology, whether it was something, related to 3 d printing and manufacturing, whatever.
And, and the second pillar is, and, and the first one, that pillar is basically most perhaps like looked and and and understood. The second is a bit more difficult.
It it it means, the governmental collaboration, and I'm not just meaning between each government, which after the cold war started when we built the international space station and and it's even if like Russia and US has problems in the political sense otherwise the the in the space exploration and cooperation in the international space station it's it's almost perfectly still working.
And that kind of of course in the future is more important when we venture deeper in the space but also the collaboration between the commercial companies and allowing the competition happened there. And that was the big change. So we wouldn't have without that companies like SpaceX, of course, like, Blue Origin can be like, a bit different, because the world's richest person owns it, and and has the own capital to do whatever with that if if he he likes.
But for example, SpaceX is is tied to like, government contracts, which bring the most of the money. So, if, let's say US government wouldn't have allowed, to break the the oligopolic system or monopolistic system of like Boeing and Lockheed Martin, we would have higher prices in going to space and it wouldn't have been like changing. So innovation and renewing and disrupting industries needs the competition and healthy competition.
The 3rd pillar, I think is always most neglected and and, like, left alone and and, because also it's a bit harder to understand, but is basically we the people, meaning that, getting the message, why we go to space, why we need to go to space, why what are the benefits here on earth about it? How can I as an everyday person be part of this new space era or space exploration? Why should I care?
Getting big public engaged and and we see it already like, whether it was the moon landings that people were so thrilled in the beginning and everything, then we went again to the moon and again, and I think was it the 3rd or which, time that we went to the moon that people didn't care about the life, camera feeds from the trip anymore and and and they cut it. Oh, I've I've never I've never heard that. Yeah. I've never heard that. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They it was, I don't know.
Was it Apollo 17 or something? Be like, in the middle of the show, they cut it off and and didn't want to tell the astronauts, and then they showed, I think, some sports or something in the middle.
But so, getting people more and more involved because, if you don't have the we the people the public involved and engaged, it's so much more harder and slows down, whether it's the funding of space agencies, whether it's the demand for the private space companies also, because whether it's a might not be so direct effect, but indirectly it creates demand also, and the demand is the big problem for example, lower orbit economy that is in the strategic goals of NASA and other space agencies, that we need to transform the earth's orbit in a commercial private company driven economy, and in a way that it is sustainable, without as little subsidies or anything that that that we could have so that the resources of government, would be freed, to go to the moon and beyond.
And and yeah. It's that's such an interesting point. I have not heard that Apollo 17 in the cutoff, whatever number it may be, the the flight that you're talking about. Because what comes to mind immediately are, a few things. Actually, it's not sorry. No. I remember. Upload 13, I think it was. So 11, 12, and 13. Yeah.
I put a I remember reading just recently about how challenging it was for the one of the brothers of the the twins to live in the International Space Station for a year, and how how difficult it was on his body, and how difficult it was to experience that whole endeavor. And there's potentially, space is an exciting venture while its rockets being tossed up and and all of the other actions or visible activities we can see.
And at the end of the day, what will make us do it differently this time around? Well, the technology and the means to connect whoever globally people even live and instantly to the space exploration.
So you have, mobile devices and and you have a r and vr and and live feeds and and telecom connections that you couldn't have dreamed of, like in in 50 years ago or even like 10 or 20 years ago, and that enables basically that we can emerge when done in a right way, the whole world into the space exploration this time.
And and you can have whether it's onboard the international space station, whether it is on the moon, you could even have like one individual, like, remotely control something down here from earth.
So so you can the possibilities that we can now do technology wise is huge, and I think that, what is slowing us down in that front at the moment, is the burden and illusions of history because we went to the moon 50 years ago, we haven't gone back, we don't have space space cities, we didn't go moors, why would anything change now?
I know, I mean most of the people doesn't know that we have even have an international space station which is like the largest, peacetime human international built structure in human history. So so, like, it's unbelievable.
But the, because we view that nothing hasn't changed and people don't expect, so people are expecting that nothing isn't happening anytime soon, and that affects that not, the brilliant minds that build the moon going to the moon, the 25 to 30 year old engineers, they are doing other stuff because they don't see the opportunities yet so well in the space, but I think in the next couple of years that's all gonna change, and the prelude was like a sports car in space, but when blue ridgings and virgin galactic sun start to send people, it becomes real, and people will wake awake at that point.
And this is also in the investor side. So, I was, for example, last summer in a space panel on on european businessentials, like, annual conference and we were talking talking about space investment and and still they think that you need to have like 100 of 1,000,000 into go to space business and the truth is that you can go with $100,000 into space business. Building apps for example, from the observational data, which is like, in some parts free from in Europe.
So people don't know these opportunities and what is happening, but, we need to get the message out, and and they will see when it happens also in this year and next year. It's interesting as as you're laying this out. I'm I'm going to be honest with you because it's it's something that I don't wanna say but I think I should say. When the Internet when SpaceX rocket went up, when it's just the heavy went up, I didn't watch it.
I'd actually didn't watch it the next day or a few days later until I said to myself, I have to watch this thing. It wasn't a draw for me even though for 4 years I've been working in the space industry. For 4 years I've been working with people who are excited about space, it still didn't have that, oh my god, pull to it. So I I there's 7,500,000,000 people on this planet.
And as you said, many people don't know that the International Space Station is one of the largest peacetime endeavors ever using multi, geographic, countries collaborating. And so I think there's an excitement that happens in the space, especially in the space sector. That's very exciting. And I think that you're bringing up that you can get into it for a $100,000 makes it even more alluring to grow the ecosystem.
It's just that I I did from the people that I hang out with, and these are people who are running $100,000,000, $8,000,000, $800,000,000, $100,000,000, $1,000,000,000 companies, no one spoke about it. Nobody was talking about it which I think is amazing as you're saying it. I'm thinking back. If I knew that everybody was watching it, I would have had to watch it. Yet I didn't hear anybody talking about it until I tuned into the people that I know.
That's a excellent pause point and and right to the heart of the matter, and and actually, means as as what I'm talking about the prelude because, that is something that spilled over from the space gigs and space nerds and these kind of things a bit like made it closer, because it had a sports car, and it it has the, mannequin there or this and, and and had the space auditors singing and everything. But still, it was very, like, spacey thing. It was very, far thing or cold thing.
But but I I I'd say that, it it wasn't just for the space kicks and everything, but that's what needs to happen basically, that we need to bring space close to people, make it warm, make it close, Make it in a way present that what is relevant to people's everyday life. And you actually have those kind of connections, a lot whatever, you are in.
So whether it's something that we use technology is created in space already in our everyday lives or where it's like, tying and presenting people, like, how, like, fashion here and how space fashion and these kind of things. It this channel 5, or the channel, like, high fashion brand, had a, like, a space, space fashion show last, was it fall? Yeah. And and these kind of things are basically the the signals that it's coming to, like, close to popular things that are close to people.
So It's it's it's close. It's I and I I, I've often found for companies, organizations, opportunities they might not may they might miss. Your words were warm, hopeful, and natural. Yeah. And it needs to be presented in that way. Those are the 3 words that you use, and you need to present it in those in that exact same way. It's take it used to be cold and used to and I can we can play this back and get them. Yet you always saw it as always saw it as warm, hopeful, and natural.
So I would use that in your Space Nation development because I think it's a great way to emphasize where you come from, the the reason why, the the background, and the the texture of your of your endeavor, which I think would be helpful. Just a it's just a suggestion. You don't have to take it. I just think it's I like those words. I think it meant a lot as you said it. So, those words resonated with me. Thank you. Because I I I we use a lot like OI.
It was like in many times close, warm, and relatable. But it's it's good that you took me back to the roots because, like, natural, hopeful, and warm sounds so much. No. No. No. Not natural, hopeful, and warm. It's warm, hopeful, and natural. The reason is the warm makes you immediately have a sensation in your body. When you say hopeful, it's aspirational. And then natural says, wait, wait, wait. That fits into who we are. So that order is useful.
There's in and then we'll get back to the interview. There's something that I've named called aimed, a I m e d. If you wanna have something that's powerful, have it aspirational, inspirational, motivational, educational, and directional. That's a accent. So aimed is the term that I I came up with it because I was tired of trying to put things together in my own head, and I said it's called aimed.
So in yours, it is aspirational, inspirational, motivational, educational, and directional because it is talking about space. So I think those warm, hopeful and natural. So let's get to let's get on to the why the moon and how? Yeah. So in in short, the moon is key to sustainability for humanity to go to space and to get the benefits then back here on earth, down to the earth for everyone.
And okay, we told why the necessity part I talked about the aspects of overview effect and this unity effect for borderless thinking about us as a humanity.
But we now might talk more about the practical more in a practical sense that I think that the more going to space and going to the moon, it's about the prosperity, whether it's the economy, whether it's the creativity, technological achievement, development, and of course, then the societal effects all whole 9 yards like, in a pervasive way that we benefit out of that. But the moon is special if we wouldn't have the moon there, it would make so so much harder us to go to space.
And of course, if you go to other sciences, you can argue that would would we have life as we know without the moon, because of the tidal waves and and certain gravitational things that it affects, certain chemical processes and and what's not here down on earth. But let Our next guest our next guest is Neil Cummins who wrote a book, what would happen if the moon did not exist? Excellent. So So I I don't go there. He I I leave it to him that part. But, talking about them, us us going to space.
So why it is so important? Mainly, it has to do with the gravity well. So meaning that, getting stuff from down here surface of the earth to even to the low earth orbit, like, couple of 100 kilometers or miles above the ground, it needs a lot of energy, not a fuel.
And and even if you get, like, rockets refuse reusable, that's the cost of the fuel and and that energy needed to, like, steal that then, limits again is the next limit, basically, that we need to get over with, and we will actually, and there's ways to do that. But, so, getting to the lower orbit and escaping earth's gravity and getting higher and higher from that gravity well where we are at the bottom, to the moon needs even more energy.
And and, if we are basing our space exploration going to the moon, mars and beyond, creating space industries and and manufacturing in space, and and even dreaming that we, transfer the polluting, manufacturing here from surface of the Earth in some, future to the space. That's not very practical, very feasible. But the moon changes everything because moon is a gas station.
There's water you can make, okay, like life supporting aspects, like water use there, get get oxygen, but you can make rocket for. And the other thing, there's a construction material, and the third thing, it doesn't have such a gravity well and pull as earth. So in almost like simply put, you can create stuff on moon, you can, make fuel there and just kick it out of the moon and it falls back to Earth. It's all over simplify. And and that No. No. I've I've I've said this exact same thing.
I've said if you took a marble and you flicked it hard enough and it got out of the moon's very limited, gravity well, it would eventually fall to Earth. Now it could take a very, very long time Yeah. But it's going to come to us. Yeah. So all these aspects that it's a gas station, it's a construction station, it's of course training ground for our, settlement into, to further in deep space and Mars and beyond, and of course, it's a scientific research post.
So so actually, we went like a certain amount of times to the moon, but like, the the, we could have done it, in hindsight better, when thinking about scientific research and and much of the the moon is still like, there's a lot to scientifically research there also. And to use, of course, the dark side of the moon, where there isn't like radio, pollution in in the sense like, here on earth or or light pollution.
So, observe observations or or radio telescopes or these, it's an ideal place, of course, also. But Yep. I gotta stop you, Kale. Before we go on any further Yeah. You just called it you called it the dark side instead of the far side. I I have I've been razzed. I've been picked on. In the beginning, I would say the the dark side of the moon. And no. No. No. You can't say that. You can't say that. And here you are saying it. That that that yeah. Yeah. That I'm laughing.
Yeah. Yeah. That that that's true. Like yeah. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. Maybe. It's over the dark side makes sense, but it's just funny because I have been so careful not to call it that, and then you throw it out and you've been the space lover forever. Yeah. I actually like it's, to if if we are pedantic or something, the dark side is not a good, like term of it because it's not always dark. But, the, it's dark for us or, like, let's say that it's, we don't see it.
Well, it's it's in Hong Kong, we have the dark side when you go over to Kowloon. People it just sounds bad. It sounds ominous. So I love that you used it. So I have to stop at that. So continue on.
So the moon is viable for these 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 different or 6, which is, hydrogen oxygen construction material, no gravity limited gravity well, training ground scientific research and the fact that it has an alternative side, the far side or the dark side, where there's no radio and light pollution so that you can perform scientific tests. You can do all sorts of things differently than you would on on the, the side facing the earth.
Yeah. But the big big thing maybe like to con, concentrate concentrate on these is, the part of the gas station and construction. So basically everything, on the earth's orbit, low earth orbit or higher orbits, in the future, we are going to build that on the moon or from the materials of the moon, and also use it as a gas station to get out of from the low earth orbit, to the moon, but also then beyond.
And without that, it would be so so much harder and slower and economically, like less feasible. And that is the big thing that, I think, and and a very hopeful thing and and and promising thing because as I said in the beginning, I think it's for human race. It's certain kind of a race against the clock.
If you don't go into space, get the new perspective, get the prosperity, whether it is resource wise or or energy wise, I I I might see that, the hopes of, us, like, thriving as a humanity would be like, very, very much lowered. That, have you have you read the book 7 eves? No, I haven't. 7 Eves, more or less the moon gets broken up and disappears. And it is a book about humanity's transition into space because of that situation.
It's a it's a I've at least 12 people had asked me to read it, and then finally I said I've gotta read this book. So you might wanna look it up. 7 Eves is what it's called. Yeah. Okay. So so in terms of the so that's the why the moon. How? How what is your solution to getting there compared to everybody else? I I don't know if it is, like drastically, different, but, it it goes like, in that way that we have to now, strive to get that, low earth, orbit sustainable commercial economy.
Now that's a mouthful, but, like, having that private companies run that and and of course there's a collaboration with governments and and certain things that government is a client and customer there also but then going to the moon needs to be a cooperation with the governments, the space agencies and the private companies. Okay, we see now the deep space gateway happening with Nasa and Russians and I think like there will be others in part of that and I think japan was part of that.
But then the settlement on the moon. Okay, we as a space nation have certain plans of that that we can tell we'll we'll be telling later this year out. But also like european space agencies has of course moon village things and these, but then, where the money comes is china and the chinese space agency, but it will be also a corporation of all space agencies, I'm sure of that. But then also with the private companies, whether it's blue origins, spacex's and this.
So okay, that is how we get there and everything. But the important part of it all is how to create as you know that sustainable economy around this and low authorities in our crafts faster and it takes a bit more time with the moon and you need the subsidies and and and bigger customer as a government to be part of their eventually we will get there and then of course once again government and private companies go to the Mars and beyond.
But the the economy is tied in the space or lower lower orbit already. It's profitable to make like fiber optics there because of the microgravity makes the quality so much higher than here down on earth. I think like the infrared light goes into that inside that fiber optics, even organ printing because like manufacturing and printing objects that are like hollow inside or like not solid is easier in microgravity.
So we will get like our hearts and and that's actually a warming and hopeful thing also, in the future from the orbit. And all these these things and and we can now know some of these, but, it's like the analogy, like, Internet in the nineties, that you knew that it's gonna change everything.
But, it would be a bit to ask at that in the nineties, like middle of nineties that so tell me what kind of new ventures and innovations will there be and expecting the answer to be like facebook twitter or or like Airbnb or or these kind of things. Well, Amazon's even. So so yeah. The the, the number and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the number is 300 it's a $330,000,000,000 industry today. Yep. The low earth orbit is 330,000,000,000.
Oh, so based on the a small industry today. Yep. Yeah. And it's gonna grow, like, estimated now, but, like, those estimates, of course, are like, projections are going to change and and probably getting like faster bigger than they believe, but 1.51,000,000,000,000,000, it was something like, was it 2,030 and then 3.3 1,000,000,000,000,000, in in, 2,040 or 50, something like that are with the current estimates.
But I think they those are going to change because also the what you count in the space industry.
So I think what what we are not anticipating yet are, the uses and experiences that we can create, whether it is for, entertainment, educational purposes or whatever, and and entertainment or fun learning and this kind of things that we also as a space nation work in that realm to bring close to everyday people basically because most of the space industry what we are talking is just of course like business to business things and and it makes sense in the past place but now the technology has enabled that we can create okay send even more people as a space tourists or visitors into space in the future but we can also connect, in ways, large masses of people with a r v r or like we are providing astronaut training and and chance to go to space, for global audiences.
So where do you draw the line between like, to score, like, terrestrial to call like terrestrial uses and terrestrial experiences built on on the space exploration basically. But yeah, so the moon basically, the big thing is it enables all that economy to scale up basically. So so without that the scaling up, whether it's the law or bits getting their space stations manufacturing, it would be so much more cost costly thing to do without the moon.
So when we build the moon settlement, all the construction manufacturing gas station things and everything, we can then build the space elevators on moon and and earth, and then get a one again scale price point reduction in in getting stuff to space or people to space. And and that's gonna change everything once again. The if we can go back for a second, I've been holding on this. You talked about the Moon Village, which I know is going through some transitions already with its board.
And then you mentioned the Chinese Space Agency. Yep. And you highlighted it. So give me what your what's your take? What's your feeling? What's what have you learned that I should know? We should know? Yeah. So the China has, like, well, you, of course, know know China probably better than I, but, like, I I'm learning I'm learning from you. You've been your Yeah. But but in any case, China, China is patient when setting goals.
And and I firmly believe that the goals that they have set for space exploration or or using space and and the opportunities there will be drastically changed in few years when they see certain kind of proof of concepts and pilots, they will scale up that and they can do that when they see the opportunity and feasibility, whether it's building the moon settlement, whether it's mining something or manufacturing in space, they have the political means and will and financial capabilities to do almost anything.
And I believe that that when what is happening now, okay, like driven in in us space private space companies and in europe and everywhere else, when we are seeing these changes in the upcoming next few years and 5 at the most China is going to like double down and put a lot lot more funding in in going to space and and the ideas of sending people to moon 2000 30s is going to happen much, much faster. And and that's my take on on what's gonna happen with the Spanish, Chinese, space exploration.
Is there one specific thing in China? Very short, one specific thing in China that made you or makes you feel that this will happen? And before you answer that, I'm only throwing out Xi Jinping's announcement or more or less his position that he's going to be continuing his role. There's a lot of AI activity happening in China that is not exactly towards western world's beliefs, positive.
And there's a challenge economically through China for, in many reasons, in many ways because of the banking system. So what makes you feel so confident in China being the one who's going to drive a lot of this? Well, one, of course, is is kind of this this mini space race. You might say that, because of the 2010 elections and what happened to the after that and and this America first mentality, China was like not included in the international space station.
And and what, of course, Chinese hate the most and and and you don't ever do to Chinese is them losing their face. And and at that point, you did that. And, so they sprung more resources and and out of that to build their own space stations, basically. And they're now building, of course, them and and already have like whether you call it space lab or space station there.
But it's the general thing is, as we said, looking all this big infrastructure developments or all all the big, well, well, infrastructure is actually the best example. So thinking the bullet trends, for example, they've been laying out around like, is it 25 or 30,000 kilometers of of bullet train tracks in the past 3, 4 years. I don't remember how many countless of tens of 1,000,000,000 or 100 of 1,000,000,000 that course and this year they're making like 4,000 kilometers more of that.
At the time I of course like was started to think how much there is in us and and like tweeted about it that is there even bullet trains in us And someone answered that that No. There there is not. Yeah. So so There's prop there's all reasons property rights. Actually, to some degree, what the Americans did is, US took the technology from Europe and from China, and they brought it to the States, but they could not use it the same way. So they had to modify it.
And the modification, everything was failing. Yeah. Because there's no straightaways. They don't have the Americas doesn't have the property rights and the ability, such as China, to say we're just moving you out of the way to keep this train going fast. So so in the last few minutes that we've got, if you were to share something amazing that's happening that you think that I should know about that you would say, this is really really exciting. What would be one thing you wanna share with me?
That that's a good question. I, I I think it is, what what I've been seeing doing, what I'm doing, and and the change in in the last 5 years and and that is like accelerating just now in the past like year and 2, the change in mindsets in in space industry and everyday people basically towards the the towards space. So meaning the amazing change how like NASA and and the cultural changes that there has happened in the past, let's say even 2 years.
And also at the same time, what is starting to happen with the general public and and whether it is talking about the the sports car going to mars, but also, there are signals all the time that I'm pumping totally different way, in the general public engagement, involvement, and fascination about the new space era than what was like 5 years ago or even a few years ago.
And, that development, I think, is going to hugely, like, ignite, when Virgin Galactic and Blue Origin start to fly people to space. That that's the most exciting Maybe maybe I'm wrong, but Virgin's Virgin wants to stay within atmosphere as of now. They wanna they would like to do satellites into orbit, but they really wanna stay in, atmosphere. Blue Origin is a different story.
So I guess my what I'm seeing, and this is this is not to be controversial to end it with a controversial note, it's just the question, is that I see a lot of money pouring into a lot of venture, a lot of activities that we're not going to be seeing any activity out of them for 15 years. That these things that people are professing and getting funding for, it's exciting. It sounds good on paper.
Yep, We're still trying to get a rocket out once again in the same way that we used to to be able to get to the moon and and do the others. What do you what's your take even though this is a lot of excitement? Are you also seeing a lot of excitement the wrong way? Yes. That that's a good point.
So that that's actually an excellent so what we haven't touched about is that, I I think that, these new companies ventures, they still, like, they are painted that these are new companies and business and private companies. But when you look at them, not many have real business models or returns on investments and something or sustainable models. And and that is amazes actually me in a negative way in a sense.
But I think there lies the thing that might be the most amazing thing that comes out of this all that in the next, year or couple of years, I I predict that we are going to see the first like really feasible space ventures that might not be okay.
Some might be that has happening in 10 15 years 20 years or but there's a like realistic road maps to make money early on and have business models and revenue models that are sustainable and and that by that I get back to the analogy about the internet like that. The technology, the capabilities, opportunities that we can do, especially on low earth orbit are so hugely different now and getting the even more different, year by year than 10, 15, 20 years ago.
And it's just waiting for new brilliant minds to build businesses on top of that. And and when it bursts, it will burst and there will be a lot. So, one final note or or statistics. Sure. Sure. There was 127 space companies in 2,010. 127 in in the world. Now there is over 1,000, and it is predicted that in in, like, less than 10 years, there's 10,000. So the more we get their entrepreneurs, more that there comes entrepreneurs, like me, totally outside from space industry.
I believe that that creates a disruption and and something that creates, real businesses that are not relied just from government money. Well, you're talking to the choir here. Yeah. Project Moon Project Moon Hut Foundation is part of that, and we're collaborating you and I together right now. So, yes, this is this is great, Kale. I really appreciate you taking the time to go over your, your thoughts on how we're going to move from where we were to why the moon and and how we should approach it.
So I I definitely love the conversation today. So thank you very much. Thank you very much, David. Well, the if you've liked these, podcasts, there's obviously many more that we have up for you to listen to. You have the ability to work with us, to connect with us through Space Nation as well as through project moonhat.org. And it's it's space spacenation.com. Correct? Dot org. Dotorg also. Spacenation.org. Projectmoonhot.org. And you can sign up for, our future related, database project.
You could also find us on facebook.com, projectforward/projectmoonhot, as well as you can connect with us on Twitter at projectmoonhot. So to everybody out there who's listening, thank you for taking the time. Hope you learned a lot from the time that you spent with us. And I'm David Goldsmith, and thank you for listening.