Uncovering Another Dimension of Space w/ Ran Livne #44

Hello, everybody. This is David Goldsmith, and welcome to the age of infinite. Throughout history, humans have made significant transformational changes, which in turn have led to the renaming of periods into what we call ages. You've personally just experienced the information age and what a ride it has been. Now consider that you might right now be living through a transformational age into the age of infinite.

An age that is not defined by scarcity and abundance by a redefining lifestyle consisting of infinite possibilities and infinite resources. The ingredients for an amazing sci fi story that has come to life as together we create a new definition of the future.

The podcast is brought to you by the Project Moon Hunt Foundation, where we look to establish a box with a roof and a door on the moon, a moon hut, through the accelerated development of an earth and space based ecosystem, then to use the endeavors, the paradigm shifting thinking, and the innovations and turn them back on Earth to improve how we live on Earth for all species.

And today, we're going to be exploring another amazing topic, uncovering another dimension of space, And we have with us Ron Livna. How are you, Ron? Fantastic, David. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. Ron is the director general of the Ramon Foundation since 2015, and the Ramon Foundation was named after Ilan Ramon who died in the Columbia accident in 2010, an organization focused on leading groundbreaking discoveries in the space industry through all different sorts of mechanisms.

And he and I met in 2017 while I was in Tel Aviv through mutual friend, Ofer Lapid, and we had an amazing discussion. And the discussion led to how they were educating students throughout Israel, his the desires to reach and change the future. And it was it's, I I just couldn't wait to get you on the program. So you're here today. I can't wait. Do you have, some bullet points for us that we're going to follow today? Yeah. Well, I have some some bullet points on our outline.

I'd love to start discussing by talking about the paradox of of the the the present of of education, of the education systems, or in the education methods that, humanity is using today. Okay. And then Number 2. I think this one will lead us to talk about different dimensions of of space. When when I'm talking about space, we'll we'll discuss the different dimensions because I'm not necessarily talking about the space industry or space research or the space market.

Okay. Okay. And at the end of the day, I'd like to talk about, our purpose in life, both my own maybe, your purpose in life and how space fulfills this purpose. That that I think that this is pretty much it. Okay. Well, so let's start with the first one, the paradox of of the present of education. So Before dipping in, whenever, you know, as as you you mentioned, I'm an Israeli. So my my my mother tongue is is is Hebrew. And, my bachelor degree is in literature.

So I really love languages, and and I love reading books from ever since I was a child. So whenever I'm stuck in a relationship when I'm talking about a relationship, doesn't necessarily, obviously, romantic relationship, but, you know, talking to someone or start walking with him, I'm always apologizing for for the language barriers. Because at the end of the day, in Hebrew, it sounds better, but I think that the person who cannot express exactly what he thinks freely, his freedom is limited.

And, so so I maybe I'll have some difficulties here and I I I you and I sat for hours. I have no challenge. You're going, I don't believe you'll have any challenge with me at least. And having lived in Europe and having lived in in Hong Kong, I do understand language barriers, but that to me is the texture and richness of life. It's to explore how definite the same word means something to one person and something else to somebody else. So I find that a richness and a value, not a a separation.

Alright. Good. So let's kick off. Okay. So so, you know, you just talked about the the Ramon Foundation. The Ramon Foundation, I came to the foundation 2015. Was, recruited by Ronan the late Ronan Ramon. When I was the the widow of Filanam, the first Israeli astronaut, and the mother of Asaf Ramon, captain Asaf Ramon, who died in an Israeli Air Force, a plane accident. And she founded this nonprofit. It was really inspiring that they'd mainly education.

Today, we're also empowering, SpaceTech, startups and the SpaceTech team here in Israel. You you've now expanded? Wow. Okay. Yeah. But we had a very good 3 years, 3 3, 4 years since since we last met. But but, you know, I didn't came from an education, nonprofit. So, I mean, I never did education except for, I don't know, the the studying in school and in university.

And, when I came across the the foundation, I started actually running it, I I met all of the wonderful education educator who worked in the foundation. And we started asking them about, their purpose in life, what are they doing in the the nonprofit, how they're inspiring children. And, I came from I I did business consulting, so I kind of, like, tried to set KPIs for everything thing and was very outcome oriented. And I we I think that I faced a very big difficulty.

I mean, because I didn't know how do we you set KPI for for education. I mean, what do you think, David? How how do you I I yeah. I I'm I'm I'm asking myself the question. When it comes to education, it's such a variable. How do you know that your school that you went to is was a good one? The typical measures are getting a job and doing, but I my wife, which who who's amazing at this, had never looked at education the way I had.

She had always said to the children growing up, your schooling is only 10% or 5% of your life, and that that there's so much more that you learn from everywhere else. So she actually measured it differently than I did. I looked at it as degree that would give you opportunities. She saw it as just a stepping stone to even bigger and bigger.

And post education, I would say that I learned so much more and and in a better condition better position after it that I was in university than while I was in university. Yeah. So I had one of my employees. He he said that, education is is what's left after you you, forget everything that you learned in school. Okay? That's what they said. And other people kind of said, listen.

There is, you know, formal education that you get in elementary school and high school and after that bachelor degree and may maybe you're doing an MBA or or masters and a PhD, but there is also a nonformal, education. Mhmm. You go up and you learn how to to be involved in society, how to interact with people, what are your values. But what I tried to focus on was how do you know that your school was good.

And, and and the paradox here of of the all of the education systems today is that you can't measure school by the by the by its grades. Right? Because at the end of the day, you mentioned that that you said, listen. Let's take it to the the the easiest one easiest, way to measure, schools, and that is, to see How much the graduate all of the people Yeah. They got a they got a job, and therefore they were it's a terrible, terrible metric. Yeah. But here here's the problem. You see?

I mean, 70% of middle the middle school children today will work in jobs that doesn't exist today. I mean, a child that goes to Israel in Israel now for 1st grade, it's 2,021, will graduate will will enter the labor market, at least here in Israel. 12 school years of school, 3 years in the army, then let's say 3 more years he's doing a bachelor degree. That's, like, 18 years from now. That's 2039, and he will retire at the age of 67, at least here in Israel, meaning 2081.

I mean, 12 years ago, there were no smartphone. I think that's I don't know. IPhone 1 was introduced in 2,008. Right? Mhmm. Something like that. 13 years ago in 2008. 20 years ago, we had no Internet in every household. 35 years ago, we had no computers. I mean, most of the apps that I'm using today didn't exist when I finished high school. So, I mean, how can you So how how old how old are you? I'm 37. Okay. So so but, I mean, how can you prepare children to an unknown future? Right?

So so when I graduated from high school, you didn't exist. Yeah. But think about the technology shifts. I mean Oh, yeah. It's amazing. When when I was a child, I remember my granddad talked to me about the fact that all of all of the children went to this big building to the town hall, in in Romania in in a small village called Dez, and they listened to this box that had voices from Bucharest, from the the capital of Romania. And he said, wow. That was amazing. That was amazing.

This was the first radio in in his his village, and and he he used to say and now I'm I'm doing Skype with with my grandson, which is phenomenal. My brother, studied. So did did his PhD in Berkeley, and he used to do Skype with my granddad. So, I mean, technology shifts so fast today that we are trying we what we need to do, and here is the paradox, is that we need to prepare children into a unknown future, and and and this is a very big issue today in education systems.

So what we figured out, and and and I'm I mean and and again, if you're trying to set KPIs, and and again, I'm coming from business consulting, do you need to have the same program for all of the children? I mean, the the foundation handled back then with, youth at risk and with gifted children. And the gifted children in Israel at least are going to to to initiate and start their own startups, and they will compete with all of the global high-tech companies in the world.

And the youth at risk would probably battle to get their family out of the poverty line. Do we need to set the same problem for each and every one of them? And and and I think that this was, like, the key issue that one of the key issues that we were facing when we when I came to the foundation. It it so what you so I let me get this right.

What you're saying is your challenge was that you saw that each child had its own separate needs and that there was one system, and you knew that they had to be met at different play in different places. Yeah. So so one, we know that we are not quite sure that what we're teaching the children will be still relevant in in 10, 15 years. Right? Yep. In 5 years.

2nd, we see different children with different coming from different background, and we're asking ourselves, do we can we set the same program to each and every one of them? And one of the thing that that came in across is that one of the the actually, with the, one one of the employees and basically said, well well, why are we focusing always on the material, on the knowledge that we need to to provide with all of all of the different children.

Why aren't we focusing and emphasizing on different tool sets that we need to emphasize them? And we came across to this very interesting work of the the World Economic Forum that basically said, that that smart education systems need not to focus on knowledge, but on tools, on skill sets, on competencies, on literacies, and on, character core qualities. And this was kind of a breakthrough. So so we did all of this this this nice work. We cut it into to, a one pager.

This like a thought that we had, and and and I think back then, I was still a consultant, but then came to the foundation. I wasn't the CEO then, but but they drove drew this thing out of conversation with the different, employees in the foundation and with other experts. And I came to the late one of Ramon, who was founder of this this nonprofit, and presented her with a concept in which we we're going to do, education.

We're going to to not work on the children's grade, but to do literacies, competencies and character qualities. And, and then she she looked at me and said and I told them, and, obviously, we're at the Ramon Foundation. So, we're still going to teach the children space and aviation because Elon was a a a fighter pilot in the Israeli Air Force, and we're going to do it, we're going to teach them aviation and space. We're going to focus on competencies, literacies, and character qualities.

And what do you think she replied? Yes. Of course. Basically said, yes. Of course. But why are we emphasizing space? Yeah. So, yeah, I'd But I told her, what do you know? Ramon Foundation, we're named Afri Land Ramon. And the the the I mean, it we focus on space.

I actually think that the space side of it and I've shared our story of the 2 of us meeting, but and I was fascinated by the discussion, is that you're teaching a a variable that is unknown in the middle of known constructs, And therefore, you get people to expand their thinking beyond even just living on Earth. And I think that adds another layer, another texture to a person's ability to rethink and reformulate.

So, yeah, I think the combination of time and space, but I I I think there's even more to it. What basically Rona hinted is that is exactly that. She said, listen. That that's really good. They great thoughts about literacies and competencies and character qualities, but when you're looking in space or aviation, they are not your target. I mean, she she basically set out tens of nonprofits all across the world, tens of programs, space programs, educations, that that are doing and teaching space.

Space is not a is not a goal. Space is not a target. Space is an instrument. Yep. You said, I didn't know Ilan Ramon, in person. I read his diaries, and and I knew his and I know his family. And what they basically believe in or what Elon believed in is that space is simply a tool to inspire people to be make them bet better people. So she said, that's fantastic. You can be in the domain of space, obviously, because we are space people. We're on foundation.

Nevertheless, never forget the the our paradigm. There are basically 2 paradigms in in in in space education today. One of them is the things that space is a major. Right? That you need to to to study space like you're studying engineering or physics or medicine or whatever. And that was the one that says, listen. Space is not a is is not a subject. I mean, it is, but but it's a domain that's very multidisciplinary and it's meant to improve our lives, in every one of the different majors.

So if if you want to study biology, you can do it by by, you know, watching Right. You can you can and grow potatoes on Mars. And you can study engineering, and you can study philosophy, and you can study, literacy. Correct. It's a it's a location. It's a it's a got a lot of dimension, but yet everything we do on earth. It's a if you were listening, I don't know if you heard me say that the reason for all of our work is we wanna improve life on earth for all species.

So we are saying we take these endeavors, this paradigm shifting thinking, the innovations, and all of those, the biology, the chemistry, the physics, all and turn it back on Earth so that it be it is a tool to be able to improve the lives of all species. So, yeah, this makes perfect sense. So it didn't make any any sense to me because I didn't realize that. Really?

Yeah. Yeah. So so I came to the foundation and started working, and and I realized that I need to focus on competencies, literacies, and and Oh, okay. Oh, wait. What what did you when you she said that to you, what did you think? I mean, I know you didn't think it, but what did you think? Like, she's crazy. This is not gonna work. I don't get it. What what what didn't Well, Juana was a very spiritual person.

Okay. So at the end of the day, I realized the fact that you don't want all of the children in the Ramon Foundation programs to to become, space engineers because, obviously, some of them won't be space engineers, and most of them won't be astronauts or at least not in the the next decade. Maybe after that, it will become hopefully, it will become much more common.

But but I I mainly I I I didn't realize the the depth of what you she said, that you actually kind of you know, you you've been doing this for for a while. So I came into the foundation, and and I met these children, and we did this program called the Ramon Space Lab. It's, operated. It's a very well known program here in Israel. We have competition that we're sending experiments into the ISS.

Actually, we're going to operate it next year also in Chile, hopefully, in Rwanda, and in Singapore, which is kind of exciting. And, I met these children, and they planned, a a an experiment that did mold the apples. They they basically they they their mentor told them, from the foundation told them, listen. Think about experiments. One of the children cut a green apple in his, kitchen. You know, after 5 minutes, oxygen came to the apple, and the apple became rotten. Right?

Yep. And, you know, this child thought, okay. What's what will happen in space? So I'll cut the long so we stow short. It it's a very simple, experiment. They they basically took an apple, sent it into the ISS. The apple came back, to the class. They left another piece of the same apple in their class. They wanted to look whether it got rotten the same. Obviously, the mentor told them, listen. It doesn't work like this. Let's go to to to to a level aborting looking at microscope.

And, obviously, I assume I assume that you know that the the the different bacterias, that grew in space is totally different than the ones Yeah. On Earth. Now the interesting part that I realized then when when I met these children is not the result of the experiment that they did, which was kind of successful, and they they published a scientific article with the professor that accompanied this experiment. The the interesting part was was the the the the process that they went through.

I mean, why an apple and not a cucumber or grapes or tomato or carrot? Do you know that? Why? Because of the oxidation speed in which you can see the changes that Oh, how do you know to time the exact Right. Minute or second that the apple's starting to get oxidized? I mean, maybe it's on the way to flow down the the to Cape Canaveral when when we sent it by DHL. Maybe it's on the way to I mean, they build it an experiment, on their own from a to z. Yeah. They timed it.

They they they they kind of the the Ramon Foundation mentor basically presented them with this question. He said, well, why are you using apples and not grapes? What did they say? What I wanna know. Okay. Yeah. And and what what did the chill the children told him when he asked them this quest these questions? Yeah. How do you know how to time the they told him, we have no idea. So we told them, okay. So Google it.

And the children googled, and they got into this professor who is an expert in in oxygen. I think I have no idea how to say it in in Oxygenation? Yeah. Oxygenation. From the Volcanity Institute in Israel. It's a very well known international, institute here. Academy institute. It does research on on different, agri tech and plants and basically emailed him. The professor loved the fact that middle school children are doing this experiment.

He invited them into his, laboratory, and they build it together. Now now this was absolutely fascinating to see this class and the way that these guys interacted with all of the programs. So the the our mentor, which is an educator, basically only posed them with different difficulties and told them, listen. Google it. And why did he tell them this? And and and when I met these children at the end of the day, I saw children that have these 21st century skills and have competencies. Right?

Because at the end of the day, when you have a problem in in project or in your business consulting or in one of the startups that you're investing in, what are you doing when you have a problem? You're googling. You're googling. You're looking for x. Well, you don't open an encyclopedia. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. No. But, actually, actually, one of the things that I do is I do interviews. Exactly. This is how I learn.

I I I think I showed you, and I end up with on an interview, I end up with between 10 to 20 pages of notes. So I'm I I listen to everything that's going on. So yes. A, you're listening to everything. B, you instantly think someone you meet a person, what's your value proposition for him because, obviously, you won't open his heart to anyone, so so you need to open him. Yeah. You're starting you you know, you you you you learn how to pitch, and this is what the children went through.

They met worked with 3 different professors from 3 different academic institute. They had their pitch. They had their value person. They did it by, you know, by by an instant, by reflex. And and these children, I have no idea what they will do in 10 years from now, whether they'll have the the startup for It's a skill set. It's a skill set with a gym. Yeah. Absolutely. And I met them and I told them, well, what made you do this entire process? Because, obviously, you guys work on it days nights.

And and and they said, well, first of all, we love space. And second of all, our mentor basically he even he didn't even show us the way. Usually, teachers are taking us by the hand and, you know, and and writing down on the whiteboard. Our mentor comes from physics. They have no idea about plants and biology and about everything. So basically, he told us, listen, guys. If you don't solve this, let's think about a different experience. But here is the list of questions that needs to be asked.

Let's try to find a solution for them. And they were the one that led the this experiment. And and when I understood this this Hey. Hey. Before you go too far, are you going to tell me why the apple? Why the apple? Yes. You keep you brought it up twice, and I I wonder what why the apple? They could have done it with grapes as well simply because it was very easy. Basically, they did is that they sent a tube that had, like, different rooms in it.

The apple was they they cover the the apple with, like, a salty water or something like that. It kind of froze it. And what the astronaut did is that he opened one of the rooms, and then a fluid came and opened this defroze the apple Yeah. For 3, 4 days. And then he opened another room and then with another fluid that, made the apple, like, froze again. And this is this was 3 They were they Also, yeah. So they, maybe a different word would be the and you did a great job, but they had chambers.

So they opened up 1 yeah. Just just for clarity, they had one chamber. It was frozen, and this way it wouldn't be oxidizing. It would be solid. Then it allowed it to the water to dissipate, and now it was exposed to space. And then they refroze it again probably to bring it back down to earth so that they could test it. Correct? Exactly. Exactly. Thank you, David, for for your assistance. Well, no. I Yeah. But but but, I mean, think about the process. These guys are are Yeah. Children.

I mean and they they wrote a scientific article about it. Now, obviously, you know, it is amazing. They led the research. They led everything. And you're talking in here not about gifted children. You're talking about here a a public school in Israel in Kiryat Yvonne. And we have, like, dozen of examples. We sent over 31 experiments into the ISS in the last 5, 6 years, and, it's competition. So, like, to the final, we get, like, 10 tens of experiments at each year.

So but but but what again, what was under when I met these children, I realized what Wanna said. Because what basically I met them, and then I met their teacher. And what their teachers told me told me, listen. These guys are 9th graders. They know biology much better than than the guys that I teach on 12th grade grade. Yep. Even in in when people do students who are doing the bachelor degree.

And when I asked him why is that, he said, well, they had to understand biology because you brought for your judging panel, for the the judges that evaluated this project, you brought real professors that basically did them a design review and and basically ruined our experiments and told them all of the bad things and the things they need to correct. They gave them a genuine feedback instead of trying to teaching them because it's science. It's not education.

So and and what I realized during this process are 2 things. A, you need to give children the, you know, the genuine right feedback in a very humble and, front humble but for front forward way. Yeah. Yeah. A nice way. The second thing is that because the children really love the idea of sending an experiment into space, space inspired them. Now they competed with children who did experiments in physics, in chemistry, in material engineering, in medicine, all different topics.

So so it was kind of like a kaleidoscope of different subjects, different, things. Just just different disciplines. Yes. Disciplines. So Well, I I do have to I I have to is everything okay? I see I just heard everything crash in the background. No. No. Everything's okay. Okay. Just wanna make sure. I don't wanna let that go too far. Okay. So they're different disciplines.

When when our kids were growing up, we one of the companies we owned, we would dealt with all sorts of different companies, and I would take them on field trips. So if we were going to a warehouse that was large and automated, I would bring them. If we go to a print shop, I would bring them. If we would go to a company that did construction, I would bring them.

And it gives them that real life texture that something that they're working on in school or not in school has value and and can be participatory. And so this is great. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. I agree with you. But the thing is, again, and and this is basically what the Ramon Foundation is doing.

I I could give you other examples from our nonspace activities, but, basically, the idea is to use space as an inspiration of children to enable them to explore different opportunities and to work on on, you know, 21st century skills on competencies, literacies, and character qualities.

At the end of the day, we're working with a a very nice methodology that basically forces the children to do teamwork, forces the children to understand pitching, forces the children to try to explain themselves what's the value proposition for future partners, and basically force them to do something that they like to do within space, within the domain of space, within the different dimensions of space since at the end of the day, in order to you know, space is so wide so they can choose any discipline they they want.

And since our educators and our mentors are coming, you know, this is what we're training them. Basically, training them to to forget everything they learn and only to guide these children and to give them an extra value in in in general science, not necessarily, you know, to to design solar panels, but to to basically to ask them to look for the right experts and to do these interviews, like just like you're doing. So it it's kind of unique.

One of the things that you had, said to me while we were in Israel, which I thought was also amazing, is that you had emphasized to me the diversity of the student groups, the students from from age, from race, from religion, from all of those also play into it. How do you create or how does that affect how you run these programs?

Have to admit that, again, we're we're walking we're very diverse in when you're looking at the the audience in all of the the or the children that's participating in in all of the the problem, they're very diverse. Israelis, it's very fortunate to have, I think, you know, it brings also a lot of conflict. We have here ultra orthodox and orthodox and secular like myself and Jews and Arabs.

And if you're deep diving, I said give the different sort types of Jews that, you know, we have ultra orthodox and secular and orthodox. But in the Arabs, you have Christians and Muslims and Bedouins and Druze that are also, you know, Bedouins are also, Muslims, but they're quite different than the general Muslims. What what's interesting in space is that there are some languages that are international, arts, music, sports.

I mean, I don't know if you're watching, but but there is now a a Euro tournament, And there's the the NBA finals and, you know, within few weeks, they'll start the Olympics, so you can see sports as a national language. But, space is is something that's so inspiring and so international. I think that we're also very fortunate to live in the 21st century in which international collaboration in space is, is very common.

I I've I've shared our meeting with people over the years, and I've said that one of the things that you were you were so excited about is you said, people don't realize that we have Jews, Christians, Muslims, air we have all of these people, the students together. The this is not a homogenetic, singular type of educational system that the Ramon Foundation is bringing all sorts of children from all sorts of ways together.

When you're emphasizing on the in on, you know, on the common ground of curiosity and and of inspiration, and you're emphasizing on the different, you know, on the our desire to give these children different literacies, you know, and what I'm saying about literacies, I'm not talking only about math and and and, you know, technology is literacy. IT is literacy. You see? The way to understand science is literacy, and competencies. And at the end of the day, you know, you can go very far.

You can ask me, Ron, why are you walking in Singapore? So and I will reply to you. Why am I walking with us? Well, I we've worked with the school in the Isle of Man, and and you're asking, why do you work with these guys? Because I want these chill our children in Israel to practice their English. So the children from abroad are doing design reviews for the Israeli children because at the end of the day, it's a very flat world, and and the children will have to understand different languages.

And here in Israel, at the end of the day, we're witnessing Arab children doing design reviews and assisting Jewish children and Jewish children from Tel Aviv walking with the children in in Mahalo, in, Yalka or in, in, Kisra Smia, which are some Arab villages. And and they're talking science, and and they're actually talking science and they're grading themselves, and then they're coming back to the classes.

And the first question that their mentor is asking them is, k. What did you learn from the meeting with the children from Tel Aviv or or from Kislev? How do you think they are conducting their experiments? What can you learn from the process? What can you learn about yourself and and the relationship with them? And we're kind of, I would say it's it's it's becoming these these differences are becoming transparent.

When you're looking at the end of the day, there is the Israeli Space Week, which is usually at the end of January, and then all the children are meeting. I mean, they they are doing doing Zooms, and they are doing phone calls and and all sorts of things before that they are doing design reviews for.

Each each class is doing design with different and then they'll at the end of the day, in January, they are meeting in, the Israeli Space Week in, I don't know, Tel Aviv University or one of the big auditoriums in in Tel Aviv, which is the center of the country here. And, you know, it it's it's beautiful to see all of them are mixing, and I don't think that the the you know, when you're talking to them, they are not competing one against another. They're competing against themselves.

And and it's phenomenal. It's phenomenal. So let me take a jump. Sorry. Is, because I my mind keeps on moving towards how are you teaching the educators to educate? How are you structuring your environment that allows the individual teacher to thrive? I think that the first question that I ask a person that's coming to work in our education branch is this. And I'll try to ask you this the same question. Okay. Yep. What do you remember from school?

But when I'm talking about school, don't tell me about your first girlfriend or about hiking. Give me a good memory of something that you studied within the class. I Not going to 6 flex, though. No. No. No. I I I I have it in mind, but it's not I ended up becoming very close with teachers. So I one of the things that I remember is in I think it was I don't remember. I'm not a good on dates and years, but it was my 7th grade teacher, I believe.

It was a science class, and the teacher talked about saltwater creatures. And after class, I ended up with him. I built a saltwater aquarium, and I had fish and sea anemones, and I had all sorts of saltwater creatures in my home for years because of that one experience with that one teacher who was willing and saw was willing to partake and spend time with me, but at the same time was willing to help me to make the to learn. So that's what I that's one of the things to remember.

I don't remember the content of the classes. I remember the experiences I often had with the teachers outside. How old were you? 7th grade? Yeah. 7th grade. So I must have been, what, 14? Yeah. Boom. Correct quest correct answer. Okay, David. So so I got I got one a. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll and I'll tell you why. First of all, usually, what what's interesting is that some of them some of the mentors basically say we don't remember. We don't remember.

I said, oh, we'll remember something chemistry, but we don't recall anything that made us which is, if you ask me, quite horrible. You spent most of the hours that you're awake in school, at least in Israel when you when you're a child. And what I ask them is, okay. I want you to generate the memory of the child, of of the children that you're going to mentor, not to teach. You're going to mentor them this year.

I want you to create this memory that when they're, I don't know, 25, 30, 35, 40, 50 years old, they remember this your class. And the second thing that I tell them that I tell them that the best article that I read, since I came to the foundation, most of the the the the scientific articles or or the the the papers that I I read so far since I came to the foundation involved the the space industry.

But one of the most interesting paper or the most interesting papers that I read was actually written by, a sociologist, who did a research on the MIT alumni. K? Yeah. And he went to the MIT alumni, and he tried to find patterns. And he looked for the alumnis who are doing technology and science. And that this means that if you're working in, I don't know, in Apple's in in in Apple or Google, but you're doing sales, you're not doing science or technology.

Right. If you're working in Project Moonheart and you're designing something, that means that you're doing technology. If you're working in Google and you're writing algorithm, it means that you're doing technology. And he looked for patterns, and he gave them these very long questionnaires, and they answered all of these questionnaires. He found 2 patterns.

The first thing that was quite interesting is that the first time that these guys got inspired from science was, when they were, younger than the age of 14. K? K. The second thing is that they had a very good science teacher. Not necessarily when I'm saying a very good science teacher, not necessarily a science teacher that you they Right. Is is someone the right place. Someone's connected. Someone inspired me. Took them and build an aquarium with them Right. Just like you said.

Yep. And and and and this study is is a great one because because, you know and and, Bob Cabana, for example, the the Kennedy Space Center director, and he's this guy is an astronaut, Flew aboard 3 different, space shuttles, and he always saying, listen. My dad took me to the Smithsonians, and I saw the the Spirit of Saint Louis. And and this, I I thought about this aircraft and said, wow, daddy. Does it really fly? And this was the time that I thought about being a pilot.

And he was, like, I don't know, 8 or or 10 years old. So what I'm telling our mentors is basically, guys, forget about the talks. In our programs, usually, there are no lectures. No lectures whatsoever. The the the the same if if this was a conversation with a PowerPoint on it, I would show you that the the same class that my grandmother studied in Poland in 1930 is the same class that my child is going to study in in in Tel Aviv in 2,000, 2022 with a whiteboard and and 20 desks.

In our classes, we're breaking this class, the the the the the, the environment of the class. We're working in groups. The mentor is basically going through different groups. You're allowed to use your cell phone, your iPads, whatever. And the idea here is to to think well, actually, we're not working with lesson plans but with different missions. And the children will need to do 6 or 7 missions throughout the years. It goes like this in every one of our programs.

Doesn't really matter whether it's space level, aviators. We're doing project based learning on the purest level because at the end of the day, I think that you you mentioned it previous to our call in our conversation. You study the most in your first job, workplace, not in university, obviously. The first 2 or 3 months is so, basically, we're giving children, mainly tasks and admission that they can at the end of the day, I want them to build a Gantt.

I want them to do something that they like. And usually, these children remember our classes. I mean, they are sending rockets, sometimes sometimes too high, and they're doing all different things, in this mission. Most of the Wikipedia articles in Hebrew that involve space were written by Ramon Foundation children in middle schools and high schools. Basically, because we're asking children to write on whatever they they want. Let's see let's see if you guys can do it.

So this this is how basically It's it's interesting because, even the podcast, if you look at the structure that we have here, is I don't know anything in advance. So I come as a student, and I don't have any questions in advance. So my hope, the hope is that the person who's listening to the podcast is learning alongside of me. And they, at the same time, might be thinking the same question that I have so that I'm asking the questions for them because I don't have prewritten notes.

I don't have 40 questions in front of me. And so while we can't do it in a podcast, part of the experience of the podcast is to help the listener to say, oh, I would have asked that same question. But if you have everything already known, you don't ask the same questions. So it's not exactly the same, but the this podcast series is to help people to explore something they might not have explored before. Like, I'm exploring with you. I didn't know where you were gonna go with this.

So the this is, yeah, this is cool. So the mentoring I I like the mentoring side of it. I like that you've exposed them to their history to find that. It must be a challenge to get them to break old principles. Nah. No? Not so much. Listen. Children today are No. No. I met the adults, not the children. I met the adults. Usually usually, the problem is the teachers. That's what I meant is that we have a mentor and a teacher, but but at the end of the day, they they get the hang of this. Listen.

Teachers are very frustrated. At least I don't know what's going on in the States, but at least here in Israel. You know, when I grew up, I grew up at the eighties, nineties. I think that when you grew up, you had the same you know, the the key question was, well, does the child learn more in school or from his family? K? Now today, this question is so irrelevant. These children have all of the knowledge in the bottom of their hand.

At the end of the day, they're opening their cell phone and they know when everything. So the only only question here is how can we teach them to ask the right questions, to pronounce themselves in a right to express them themselves? You you're abs I remember once one of our sons came home, and he said, I'm sitting in a classroom. The teacher has a copyright 2009 or 7 or 12 on it.

And he said, I have more current information on my laptop in front of me than what he's teaching, which is 10 years or 7 or whatever years old. And he was very frustrated because of exactly what you're saying. They're they already have the information. They wanna be guided. So okay. Cool. So, anything else with the paradox, the president of education? Are we on to different dimensions of space? I don't know. Go ahead and take the lead.

No. No. I'm I'm asking you, is there anything else that any is there one story of your well, why don't you do So so so I'll talk to you. What's one example that you found was the most amazing thing you've done at the Ramon Foundation to accelerate all of this? What's the one leadership thing? The thing that you took under your wing and you made happen. I didn't made that have anything happen. So all the different employees I'm I'm the director general. I'm mostly enabling them.

I'm always laughing about the fact that, we have at the moment 81 employees except for me. Okay. Except except for me, and, and probably we have now, like, a chief of staff, a COO. All of them are doing education. So I'm I'm the only one that doesn't do education. So I think it's mostly the employee. I think that I'm a social entrepreneur. So my work is to enable them to fulfill them their dreams. I can tell you that, these guys are amazing.

These guys I don't know what's I don't know how things going all across the world. I know that in Israel, there was a very big crisis for non profits, during COVID. But at the end of the day, you know, at least in education, educators will train to do education in classes to meet their children, and now they will force to do it it online. And we had a phenomenal year, phenomenal year. I think we're going to to expand we're going to grow in in 40, 50% next year.

I mean, the demand for our programs is is enormous even for kindergartens that can't do really remote, remote educational programs, manage to, a Zoom program for for, children in kindergartens, which is phenomenal. So so when you're asking me what's what's the best thing that I did in the front, I basically brought very good people and and allowed them to to express themselves. So let let let's go on then to the the different dimensions of space.

So so I think that the entire concept of I think we we we talked about the different paradigms in space education about the fact that there are some people that thinks that space is major than you study it like like you study engineering and and math and physics. And some of them are thinking space is a tool because it's multidisciplinary, and it can touch almost not almost. It can touch every discipline. I mean, we did a conference. We have a yearly conference that mainly, it's for education.

The, conference for education, space and education. We're doing it with the Israeli Space Agency. And this year, we did an entire conference about the nontraditional disciplines of space, arts, gaming, lots of things that, you know, involved brought poets and and artists and and dancers to to kind of teach different teachers how can they use space to inspire a dancing class about space. It was a blast.

So No. I I I you're so you're so spot on that it's amazing how much it parallels what we talk about. I I don't like this concept of space is STEM. I don't like that because how much literature has influenced our societies around the world that were that were involving space? How much artwork has been done that has pictured the sky and given people inspiration? How many buildings or contractors have used space as a means to rethink something?

So you you're what you're doing is you're dimensionalizing space to be, not space, but another dimension. It's just another part of our life. It's amazing how how similar it is to the story that we tell. So and what's amazing here is that if you're taking you're going 10000 years ago Or or, you know, even if you're looking now, I mean, I never watched the sky stars. I never did stargaze until it came to the foundation.

When I'm doing stargazing, when I'm going with friends to the Israeli desert, towards the stars, I usually ask them how many certainties do you have in your life. I mean, what what's certain in your life? Obviously, both of us have families who that are kind of white certain in our lives. Again, maybe I have a language barriers. No. No. No. You're you're you're fine. How many things can change? I mean I mean, we can change the place that we live, we can get divorced.

I have no idea whether I live in Israel, with whom. I mean, in the area that I live in, there was every every now and and then. And but there there are certain things that I can assure you, and I'm always telling. I can assure that the northern star, Polaris, will be in the north within 15 years or from now. Even when I'm doing stargazing with children, I'm always promising them. I tell them, I have no idea where you guys are going to be.

But when you'll be in a hospice in 100 years from now, you will be able to watch a star. And and Saturns will come around the summer, and Polaris will be up on the north. And and and when you're going backwards and the the skies are the same skies that our ancestor witnessed, you know, 5000 years ago. And when our ancestor looked to the star, they were really important to them. And the reason for that is, a, because they told them what time it is Yeah. The sun and what date it is for the moon.

They told them places where they are at. There were no GPS and no maps back then, so they knew how to navigate. So, a, the time, the place, and also they gave the meaning of the different mythologies. There is no religion in the world that doesn't relay or reflects on stars.

Christianity, Muslim, Judaism, all of them have meaning meaning and looking for the stars, so so when you're looking at it, it's about time, place, and the philosophy, and the meaning of your life, both the different mythologies, space is there throughout the years, not only in science. Now I'm getting back to what Donna told me, that space is a way to try to inspire people to get better version of them, to to excel themselves, and and space is so inspiring.

Space is so you know, we're talking about different dimensions. I think that I read once an article that said, you shouldn't look at at spaces, again, that there's a language barrier here. He said, you need to look at space as a resource, as a market of ideas. It's something that's to to to use because it's so multidisciplinary and so diverse. It doesn't really matter where where you're going at. I mean, you'll get the better version of any engineers if they'll try to do space systems.

Because it will they'll it will get them offers into an unknown environment, and they will have to be the best version of themselves. And when you're talking about physics, well, the this one is the easiest, example, actually, because most of the Nobel Prizes today in physics are going to the subdomain of astrophysics. I mean, this is the the barrier of of our knowledge is in is in in in astrophysics. And these are all the traditional stuff. I mean, I again, I come from little to 1 sociology.

I now do lots of of space, technology in Israel in in our space and branch, but, this this is really outstanding. And and what we're trying to do is basically is to exposing children, to to to the different dimensions of space. Because at the end of the day, it's enormous, and in and it's infinite. When people you're asking me how you know, the the header that we gave is different dimensions of space. So how many different dimensions are there of space, David?

Hey. Look. It's the age of infinite, infinite possibilities and infinite resources. So I'm gonna say it's infinite. I completely agree with you. I completely agree with you. How many things are infinite in our lives? That's a that's an odd question because you could almost say everything is infinite, but you Our soul in space. Yeah. You you'd you'd want to say that it's not. It's it's just gone even going back to that question you, you said about use you you took a switch on me.

What what are we sure about? And my mind went one place, but I've written about the other is that right now, I can guarantee a lot of things. I can guarantee you a year from now, it will be a year from now. I can guarantee you if I live, I'll be a year older. I can you know, we can predict a lot. No. No. No. No. No. No. I asked about certain So so certainty. So okay. Certainties. Well, a year from now, I'll be a year a year from now, it'll be a year from now. Okay. So time is a certainty.

Time is a certainty. So, so there were there's a list of them, but I wonder the what you're seeing now is the different dimensions of space is in terms of infinite. I I go to molecules that there's an infinite number of molecules. There's an infinite expanding space. There's an infinite there's infinite possibilities for every outcome. There are a lot of infinites out there, but our minds would be challenged to accept many of them. I agree with you. I completely agree with you.

They're they're too they're too massive. I I I do this experiment with people sometimes when they talk about size, scale, and scope, and I say to them, I'm gonna do something with you very short, and you do it in your own head. I say, I I'm gonna talk about 5 people, 10 people, 50 people, 500, 5000, 50,000, 500,000, 5,000,000. And I go on. I say, I know exactly what happened. Five people could be a family, a group of friends doing.

5th 15 to only people could be at a bar, a club, some friends, a party. You got to 50 people. You might be thinking of a small event that happened, a conference. You get to 500 people. It could be a seminar or a a school auditorium. You get to 50,000. It could be a stadium. You get to 250. And as you go up but once you get pa once you get over about a 100,000, about 250,000 people, all the faces disappear. You can't think of a 1000000 people. You can't think of 5,000,000 people.

You think of a city, you think of so our mind doesn't have the ability. At some point, it has to transition to something that allows it to give meaning. Otherwise, it doesn't have meaning. So that's what I was kind of going to when you said the dimensions and and the infinite or the possibilities. It's just it's very difficult for humankind to be able to grasp the size, scale, and scope of everything. I don't know if I answered your question. That's you answered my question perfectly.

I own I think No. No. No. The the this is truly interesting. I think that it's really easy to accept that space is infinite much more than molecules because when you're going to this, that that is when you see the stars and and you realize it. It is. It is because the molecules we we cannot grasp. I I my my wife this is a sad thing, but my wife and I were talking today, and I was thinking about how our bodies are being eaten at and urinated on and feces on.

And all day long, our body is being attacked the entire time we are living. There are organisms trying to destroy it, and there's organisms trying to build it and is trying to defend it. And there's others that are are landing on it and saying this is new food. And but that's so difficult to understand that our body is just moving all day long. And that was a conversation I had before I actually sat down to do this interview with you. So it's a it's challenging.

Okay. So so how do you take your dimensions? You're exposing the children to different dimensions and, and you stargaze, and I I wanna get to that in a moment, but how do you get them to go beyond the beyond? Not the normal, but to see more. I think that it's it's quite easy with with space. Much easier than than the other things. I mean, basically, they don't teach them space in classes. They only see space in movies, which is quite cool. And the the space space as a brand is phenomenal.

It's it's very romantic. It's very, has some sort of mystery in it. Yeah. And what basically we're doing is that we're giving them access to it. Tell them, listen. You guys are going to meet actual people that went there because we're bringing astronaut to Israel every year. We are going to Zoom with them at least in the last year. You can send an experiment or an envelope to space. So you're going to touch it.

But, nevertheless, in order to get there, you'll need to do something that's quite special if you want to go get there. And you guys can do it. I mean, basically, we're going to meet children in the world just like you that did the previous year. And, and and we're basically training them to to do it. We're training them to dream. Then I and I I love the idea of the dream yet I wanna take this for a second in a negative direction. Go ahead.

How do you get them to see through I'm trying to say this nicely. How much b s there is in the space industry about promises that are on that are non deliver or undeliverable. That there are dreams that people promote as real and factual that will happen tomorrow that don't. There's a whole generation of individuals I've met who how do you do that? How do you help them? First of all, I think that the at least, I think that the the problem is exactly the opposite.

I think that the the key problem or the key challenges or the main successes that we're having is with Children Without A Dream. And and I I'll explain it in a bit. But I think the children today are very realistic about what's going to happen and what's not going to happen. I don't think that any of our children in the program thinks that we're getting to Mars in the next 5 years.

I think that if you'll ask them and we'll do an expert talk about the Altamis program, most of the children will say, well, it's really nice, but we don't think that that timeline is correct. Nevertheless How did you help him get there? Because it it I'm seriously I have these conversations with people constantly, and it's they call because of Project Moon Hut. They wanna connect, and then they say we're gonna have a 1,000,000 people on Mars or or 50,000 people in a known, an O'Neil station.

And I I I say to them, let's do some simple math. And it's amazing that adults cannot take a simple number, say, a 1000000 people on Mars. And I say, let's assume that we don't get there until 2020. It's 20, 30. That means 50, 25,000 people per year will have to go to Mars. Every year, 25,000 people pack up their homes, put everything together, get on rockets, and there's gonna be, I don't know, a 60, a 100 people per rocket. It doesn't make sense, but yet these people believe it.

So I'll tell you what the children do know Okay. And and and what they're holding into. A, I remember that Avi Blasbergar, the director the of the Israeli Space Agency, when whenever he meet children, he's telling them, listen. When I was 9 years old, I heard the American president says, listen. Within a decade, we'll get to the moon. And after a decade, I was 19 years old. I was in the Israeli Defense Force, and the Americans landed on the moon. Yeah. Right. Which is phenomenal. You know?

We Yes. We talked, I think, few months ago. And Yes. March last year, there was COVID. We thought it's going to close the world, and voila. Science let's be fun forward kind of kick kicks this this this pandemic ass. At the end of the day, you know, there aren't enough, vaccines and the the casualties, and it's it's horrible. Nevertheless, I mean, science wins you. And, so this is the first one. The second thing that's interesting at least here in Israel is Bereshit SpaceIL.

I don't know if you you I think, obviously, is familiar with it. But at the end of the day, you have 3 people that sat in a bar with no Yonatan had was a a did the satellites in in his his he worked in IAI for some time, and he recently knew something about technology and and theories comes from cybersecurity, but none of them built any satellite whatsoever. And they sketched, basically coke bottle size spacecraft that's going to get to the moon.

And at the end of the day, 8 years after that, they managed to land the first the first Israeli lunar lander on the moon. It was a hard landing, the capacity of the moon, but at the end of the day, they got it. It was that's another way at the end. Yeah. $100,000,000. And and, you know, on this this tiny spacecraft, there was a small sign with the Israeli flag said, small country, big dreams. So at the end of the day, things are possible.

Let's put our, you know, I'm putting now my hand, on my heart. You can't see it, but, I'm saying things are possible. Things are really possible. And we are going not my grand grandchildren. I'm going to see the first female lands on the moon and the first humans land on on Mars probably within the next decade or 2 decades. I don't know about the timing, but I'm going to see it definitely. But you you're actually gonna see a lot more than that and I agree with you.

That's what that's what we work on. That's what our team works on every day. I'm very conservative. I'm very conservative. Oh, no. We we are extremely conservative. Children children are realizing it, but they're realizing that the fact that things are going to happen at the end of the day.

Nevertheless, I think that they're really smart because at the end of the day, at least the children today, I think that they know right and wrong much better than than our generation, and I think what's they they know what's realistic and not. Really? And, yeah, I think that at least in Israel, we have a very innovative, country. I mean, I assume that you know this.

We have this highest percentage of start ups per capita, highest percentage of, high-tech employees in the labor force, highest percentage of patents per capita. So people are really innovative, and the way that, you know, that the Jewish mom used to, at the beginning of 20th century, to to wish her son will be a doctor or a lawyer. Today, what she wants is her son to do an exit. An exit means we sell you a startup to a global company and make sure My mom still wants me to be a doctor.

So I Yeah. Yeah. This is we have a a very good friend and and he's volunteering with the foundation. He was good very good friend of the Almon family guy at the Wiesman. He's a Jewish astronaut who worked in SpaceX also. And he always say, listen. When I came to space, my mom kind of asked me, well, are you going maybe to to apply for medical schools to be a doctor? Yeah. So it's a tough one. Do you do you have a do you have a backup plan?

Yeah. Yeah. So so but but, I mean, this means that that that our culture basically doesn't force you, but encourage you to to make technology breakthrough for the better of mankind, whether it's on medic medicine, agritech, food tech, fashion tech, space, whatever. So things are possible here. This thing is possible. It's mainly dependent on them. And at the end of the day, you know, you're thinking about the process these children are looking at. You know?

Basically telling them on on we we folk mainly focused on Ramon space law, one that sending experience into to orbit. If you would catch these children when they are coming to 8th grade and you tell them, listen, within 2 years, you're going to send something into space, they wouldn't believe you. But at the end of the day, they are sending it. So they are better breaking barriers. I think that space is breaking barriers.

There is something inherent in space because it's outside of our environment. We are the first species on the history of our planet to manage to leave the Earth's atmosphere into outer space. We're the first ones to send probes into other plants, to land a human on the moon, which is which is extraordinary. Whenever I'm talking to children, I'm talking about Yuri Gagarin.

I'm saying, do you realize in 4,500,000,000 years, no species, dinosaurs, birds, whatever, managed to leave the atmosphere, to exit gravity, and mankind did it with our minds. So the the there are really no limits, and and this is what's is part of the magic in space. And I and I think when you're talking about the dimension of space, it's mainly mainly mainly not in engineering, but in in the way that we think of. I mean, when I met you for the first time, what do you think that I saw?

I I don't know. I'm I'd be interested to hear. I didn't saw I mean, Project Moon Hunt isn't engineering. No. You talked about Roger Bannister. Yeah. The Roger Bannister's wow. Very good. Yes. The Roger Bannister space. Once we broke the mental barrier, we everybody did it. Yeah. That it's not the it's not I don't even remember. He ran for 1 mile, 2 kilometers. How much did he run? I, he broke the mile in Broke the mile. Just just shy. Very, very, very shy.

And I don't even know the exact numbers, maybe I should. Of the it was it was said it was physiologically and sociological physiologically and so, physiologically and mentally, impossible to break the 1 minute mile. And once he did, right after it, other people broke it because they knew it was possible. Yeah. So, basically what what you basically said, listen. The the the track is not physical. Yeah. It's not physical.

Yeah. I mean, you you could look at the, you know, the the track and the sand on it or or whatever, the cement or I don't know what's what was on. Many stills I I I I probably should look these things up, but no. Yeah. But but, I mean, this is what I remember and the fact that you you drew a lot of wrote a lot of notes. But at at the end of the day, I mean, it's it's it's what's beneath it when That that I drew a lot of notes. That's what I'm known for. I'm taking notes constantly. Okay?

Okay. That's cool. That's interesting that you did. What else? Was it I mean, it was the mental side that we were going to do something different? It's because I'm not a space person at all. I I and I'm even amazed that you're doing stargazing. People now now I had a I was I had a conversation with, in Balco. I think Bal is the the the senior space woman in Israel space engineer in Israel. She's amazing.

I think she's was involved and in charge of, like, sending multiple satellites into space, dozens of them, health observation, communication, everything. And every time that I speak to her, I I have we have a very she she's now heading off the scientific technology committee of of the Hakim Mission, the 2nd Israeli Space Mission. And, the Ramon Foundation operates, which is a very interesting, endeavor. And, and I'm always telling her, listen, but I'm not a space person.

And she's like she wants to rip my head off. And she's like, you are a space person, Juan. You've been doing this for 6 years. You're an ISU alumni, and we're now bringing the ISU to do an executive space course here in Israel. Yeah. You're hosting a a a conference is you're inspiring people, you're doing education, you're working with lots of entrepreneurs, you're working lots of space companies here in Israel. You you are not a space engineer. Everything is okay.

But you are a space person, David. You're a space person. No. But see, I think I think you have the same tell me if I'm wrong. When I say that, I'm saying I don't wake up in the morning and say, oh my god. I wanna live on another planet. Oh my, it would be amazing if we were in space. I wake up in the morning and I say, with what we're working on, we have 6 mega challenges in this world today, and I believe that space will solve Earth.

The endeavors, the innovations, the technology, the, applications, the groundbreaking thinking, all of those things that we're doing are the only thing in my mind that will solve the challenges we have on earth that are coming like a tsunami and a tidal wave, however you wanna address it, into our future. And to me, this is a means to an end. It is the it it is something bigger than what we're working on. So I don't that's the way I look at it.

I don't look I think that we can If you would discover that the answer for all of these questions, these six challenges are o are the ocean, for example. Mhmm. Would you be an ocean person? No. That's my point. I wouldn't be an ocean person. So I think so so so, again, I think that what resembles us, what's what's what we can agree on, and and I think most that space is not again, in Hebrew, it says space is not. It's not a goal. It's not a target. Correct. It's an instrument.

It's it's something that we we we're using. It's beautiful. I love space. I love to do stargazing. I love to watch space movies. I love to Yeah. Star Wars, Star Trek, Battle Star Galactic. Yeah. Absolutely. I love it. But but but, again, it's we're not in love with it in the fact that that, you know, we think this is, like, this is the the the the the it's an instrument. It's and and that's exactly I say it's a tool.

The the bigger intention is if we have infinite possibilities and infinite resources, if we see the world as infinite, then we don't have scarcity and abundance. We don't have to fight one another the same way that there's a bigger playing field with the the concept you've heard about Mearth, moon and earth, is that we're expanding. We've got everything we need, and those innovations can solve climate change, mass extinction, displacement, unrest, explosive impact, ecological damage.

All of those I believe in my heart of hearts that by addressing what we're doing at project Moon Hut and meeting you, you are one of ours you're part of our story, is that it will come back. Those innovations will turn back on Earth, and they will solve. They will give the answer to what someone had never thought of before because they have to paradigm shift. They have to think differently. It will solve the challenges we have on earth because nothing I see out there is working.

Nothing where where 200 species a day are dying, going extinct. We are we are not cleaning our oceans. I agree with you. And I think that, at the end of the day, humanity or modern humanity always progress. I don't know any culture in the history of our species that gave up on better technology. Gave up on better technology. Usually, we're adopting new technologies, and we're embracing them.

And at the end of the day, I don't think that we'll be able to step back from the the way that we're living now. So we need to proceed into other plans. So so let's take let let's take this third one. Space fulfills our purpose in life. I I could wait I just like to Yeah. Where where do you take that? To draw a circle of the the education and the the the of the the space education and and to to to different dimensions.

So you mentioned that space can answer, you know, the the resources, the planet is growing, and everything. And I I would just like to emphasize that it's also very good for for the for for education and for inspiration. Because at the end of the day, if you're talking about competencies, literacies, and, character qualities, you need to form education programs for children that will be for global world that's changing.

That's very interdisciplinary because we want all disciplines to in to be included in. Very international because at the end of the space fits it like a glove because, you know, as we mentioned before, music, science, sports, or or Yeah. Everything. National. And also intercultural. Yeah. And what I like about, you know, the these are actually the 3 three eyes, I think, of the the ISU, the International Space University.

But but I think that I can see them in our day to day with the with educators, and with children here in Israel, that basically you can see how they can find themselves in this domain. They can express themselves. It doesn't really matter from which which domain they are coming or what do they like. They always find a room for themselves, which is important. And purpose. Yeah. What's your purpose in life? It it's a good question.

I received one of those Internet emails one day that said, ask questions. What's the most valuable thing in life? And it was friends. It was family. It was all. And the last one was to, life's experiences. And in my case, I would say that one of my purposes is to experience the experiences I'm capable of having so that I can fulfill what I'm potentially capable of doing. What do you want to fulfill? My my head doesn't stop. It wants to it wants to experience.

And so the fulfillment to me, the it comes in various forms. It could be on my birthday, I'm very private. I don't tell people about my birthday. I don't like to go out. I don't like to do so that fulfills me. But when I see a major project, my heart, my mind says, let's complete that. Let's make that happen. So there's an energy and an excitement that I believe that my life is about making something happen. I believe it's in it's built into me. It's wired into me. And that's that fulfills me.

It's doesn't that's that's it. It's very simple. I I don't have a complexity. If there's a tree outside, I just trim their trees. They're about, 15 meters high, and some of them are 20 meters to 25 meters high. I have all I have 2 chainsaws. I have all the gear, and I can spend 3 weeks trying to figure out how to do it. And then it fulfills me that I've accomplished it. Do you see yourself as an educator? Absolutely. Why is that?

Maybe I I would say that I do because of the way people ask me and refer to me and learn from me and by the behaviors in which I exhibit. I am an educator. So when I met you, I believe I gave you Paid to Think, I don't know, I gave you a copy of the book. I did that with a lot of people, maybe I didn't do it with you, but my I want to give and help people to see anew.

And if someone asks me something, I taught at NYU, New York University for 12 years, the students would we would sit for lunch and and after hours because it wasn't about the money. It was about the ability to transfer knowledge and help somebody to see or experience their own capabilities. And I learned so much from these students. It was absolutely through the roof phenomenal that I have used my entire life.

So I see myself I don't call myself an educator, but I believe that that's what people see me as, and I believe I do it by nature, by who I am. Did I say that okay? I have I have a very much more simple Okay. Way to describe education, I think. I think that education obviously is a lifelong learning experience, And I think that if you're making an impact on people, you're an educator.

I mean, I my my first when I was 28 7, I ran for I was the the big I was the chairman of the biggest, student bodybuilding in Israel, like a student union with lots of protests here in Israel and all sorts of things. And and when when when when I ran into office, you know, this this very interesting and and emotional campaign, what I told the people is that, I'm not interested in in, you know, advocating for for students in Tel Aviv University, the biggest university in Israel.

I'm not just thinking educating them. I want the the Israel's next engineers, mathematicians, lawyers, doctors, business persons, whatever, to be more involved in their community. And I don't think that they, learning their bachelor degree 3 or 4 years, think that they have to take social act, whether it's going to demonstration or volunteer somewhere, and this is my main goal. So I'm not looking at myself as a an an advocate or as a representative of the students.

I'm not interested in I'm interesting in educating. So so I think that when I think if you're a consultant, obviously, you're educating people. If you're trying to to But then then you you can you can include you as a parent, you're an educator. If you Of course. If you're a student and you tell if you if you educate improperly, you're an educator. If you if you educate with malice. So I would say What's improper? What's improper?

When I think of improper is that you're doing it as a means to do something wrong. So you educate somebody, so that they harm themselves, that they do you teach them in a way that could be harmful to them? I think I think it's Anything is teaching. That's all teaching. That's that's all teaching, though. I need to wake up tomorrow morning, and I need to interview a new, employee to the foundation. And it's basically to approve her because because Yeah.

The team already accepted her and, like, I'm the last barrier. And what I asked the the program manager is I asked the, the girl's name is Ophill. Maybe she'll listen to this podcast. But but what what what I asked her manager is, okay. So tell me, do you think you can walk it with her? She said, well, yes. Do you think you can educate her? And she's like, no. I don't want to educate her. No. No. No. No. No. Dana, you didn't understand this, I told her, our manager.

Do you think within a year from now when I'll meet her next summer and I'll ask her, how was your 1st year at the Ramon Foundation? She will say, I learned a lot. I improved my professional work. I improved myself as a character. I'm in a very much better position in my life than I was a year ago. And I told her, Donna, forget about, you know, the family issues or, I don't know, a car can hit her. Okay? But in in in a will the Ramon Foundation do good for her?

And Donna told me, her future manager told me, yes. I can work with her, and I can assure her that I'll improve her professional approach and and her performance, and and she'll have a very good time here. So I think Dana is doing will do some sort of an education, not in a formal way. She's not going to teach her Mhmm. I understand. Base engineering. But, obviously, she's going to work with them and and and improve herself. So so so so when it so sorry, David. You were saying?

No. No. I say I I I agree with what you've just said, and I agree that that is could be defined as education. The challenge is is to have impact on people kind of confuses me because you could sit in a room and design a new widget, and you have impact on people. You can, put down a beautiful road that someone can drive their car and be safe, and you can have impact on people. So I I think human a human that interacts or does something in society Okay. Okay. Yeah. I'll rephrase. I'll rephrase.

Did you understand what I'm saying? It's not it's no. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. I I was gonna wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. It's more like influence. Okay. Influence on the people around you. Okay. But that was not that was that was I have a friend who was I speak Spanish, and I would always say, I'm not sure, and I would say, I don't you speak incredibly well. And one day he stopped me and he said, David, stop it. He said, when you say something I don't understand or is improper, I will help you.

But tell me what you wanna say first and then the other way. I think you speak incredibly well. You have an amazing vocabulary. I think that in this case, impacting people was just not the right selection. It's not that you're not When I was 18 when I was 18, I did before my army service, I went to Ireland, and I did a trip on my own. So I went into an Irish pub in a lovely city in the the west part of the country, Unamega. Yeah. And I had a I had a drink, though.

And I met with the the, you know, Irishmen, amazing people. You come alone, and they become your friend in in 10 minutes. And I told them, you know what? I'm gonna I I have kind of shitty English. So they told me, why is that? So I thought, well, I have no vocabulary and no grammar. And they told me, well, so do we. Yeah. So, you know, so And I I often for my a friend of mine who is, Irish, I will take her Scottish. I will I will take my English.

I will put it into Google Translate so it comes up in Scottish, and I can't even read the words. And I send it to her, and she's always laughing because I have no clue what's been said. So, yeah, you have amazing lang you have an amazing language barrier. So in the word of impact, I think for you, you're bigger or different than that. So okay. So so so we we talked a little bit about education, about the way that we we want to influence the people that are around us.

And now I'll ask you something that's also part of your day to day job, leadership. Yeah. Do you consider yourself a leader? I, yeah, I I don't like these words, but I do lead. Yes. And I lead all the time, but I don't like words like that because I think they they leadership and management, I talk about in the book Paid to Think because people say, I'm not a leader. I'm a manager. I'm like, how do you manage if you don't lead? And how do you lead if you don't manage?

If you educate without lead leading? Can you educate without leading? Yes. Okay. Can you lead without being on front? Yes. So you can educate without leading, you think? You can they're not those words don't go together, but you can you can lead from the back very easily by giving people the tools that they need so that they can be in front. You can educate without having you can help someone learn something just by sharing. It doesn't have to be that you're educating them the same formal.

You share something with somebody. Think again. Maybe I chose the wrong role. Okay. You can't lead without guiding. Okay. That's different. And I think Can you lead without guiding? Probably not. You probably ask You can't you can't guide without leading. Okay. And I I would accept that more. Yes. And and, yeah, I think it's it's better than than educate.

I and I think that at the end of the day, what what I loved about the late honor Ramon, she passed away in December of 2018, is that her leadership was something out of this world. She was like, enabling leadership. Everyone around her grew. She was the leader for sure. She she guide us through, but everyone around her grew. And I think that at the end of the day, you know, you we we don't choose the date that we are born. We don't even choose then our name.

Our parent choose it, and and if you want, we can change it eventually. But but most of the things in our lives, except for, obviously, the stars and and the laws of physics are uncertain. Yeah. So I think what what's the the purpose in our lives is is to try to to to make ourselves and others around us a better version of them themselves. So And you believe space will do that? I believe that space will do that.

I think that in in in what we are doing now in the foundation is very interesting because we're transforming. And, basically, we are taking everything that we try to do in education, which is to enable people, and also some very interesting, cornerstones of of the our nonprofit that that I kind of got from the Ramon family and that we're trying to do the same now with, entrepreneurs.

I mean, if you would ask me what you're trying to do with children, I'm trying to make them realize their their dreams and to fulfill it. And what we're trying now to do is to do it as well with space engineers and space researchers. And in in in in which is quite interesting. And that's that's that's remarkable. So so when you were asking me about what I like in space is that I could find my purpose in life within this domain, in my position at the moment, the foundation. I'm not an educator.

I'm I'm enabling people, and I'm not a space technologist. I'm not an engineer. Nevertheless Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Do you not think I'm gonna turn this. Do you not think you're educating me? Oh, I'm I'm I'm I'm completely think that I'm influencing and I'm guiding and I'm that I'm educating day to day. I think that But you it's amazing myself every birthday. My I my birthday is at the end of May, and my wife does the at the end of May.

So we're going to a hotel without the children, and we're sitting in, we're trying to conclude the year and to set goals for the next year, which is quite interesting. Yeah. And we're always asking, what did we learn? What do we want to learn? And whether we manage to touch an influence, not to teach. In Hebrew, it's like the same thing, but but again, whether we have managed to influence the the people who are around us. And I'm thinking about the people who are around us.

I'm not necessarily talking about our children, our brothers, our father and mother. I'm talking about, you know, our coworkers and friends, our neighbors, whether we manage to to assist them. And and the great assistance that you can give someone is not to give them a a a good I don't know. Sugar when when he's he needs sugar for his tea. You know? My name is asked asked me.

But but to try to to assist him with something that, that he he's eager to learn or he wants to learn or he doesn't wants but needs to learn. So I'm thinking that I'm I do educate. Nevertheless But but the interesting thing do education in classes. No. But the inter the interesting thing about your the the the center of the space fulfills our purpose in life is that you almost have the same hesitancies that I have.

You don't want to be called an educator, but you do guide your teaching me right now. I'm I've got 11 pages of notes that I've taken. You've you've made me look at things a little differently. You educate, you work with other people, but you don't like these certain constructs, these certain words, these certain terms that confine you to us to being who you perceive yourself to be. And you do exactly what I do, you deflect.

And yet, we're both sitting in that same seat because it doesn't fulfill us. The terms I well, in my mind, I won't talk for you. The term being an educator, and that's not against educator educators, it doesn't fulfill me. I need something else, and that it fulfills somebody else when they you're an artist. It fulfills you. So I think you have that same. I think that at the end of the day, I think that we're doing education guiding, throughout our years whether we want it or not.

I think that I'm not doing it as a profession. I think that in the foundation, I don't teach children. But but teaching but to educator could be anything. Educating up, down, sideways, fingers. I'm enabling, and I'm guiding all all of the mentors and the managers. I completely yeah. I I I love it. I love it. You deflect it again.

So space fulfill for other people, not you and I, for for other people, you believe that space will fulfill humanity's purpose in life, or does it does it just it See, with space space, when you're looking in in in, you know, 10000 of years from now is not nice something that's nice to have. It's it's necessary to live. Yes. This is what humanity lacks now or on doesn't really understand it.

When when I listen to to different people that are visionary about space, broad history from Tsiolkovsky, from Brown, to Elon Musk nowadays, you realize that these guys understand what most of the governments and most of these startups and and scientists don't realize. Mhmm. In fact, space is necessary to live. And I think that in, you know, at the end of the day, you I want at least to touch my family, my community, my country, and and and humanity.

I think that, apart, not a significant part, but but a small part of a very big movement that's trying to amplify the fact that that we need to do much more space research, much more space exploration than we are because at the end of the day, it will matter more than other fields. And I think that the different dimensions of of doing space, whether it's philosophy, astronomy, engineering, science, you name it, can benefit mankind much more than than other other fields.

Can I can I help can I possibly guide you just add one other thing? Go ahead. It don't could you add to improve life on Earth or life for all species? We all it's always about humans. I agree with you. I agree. We it's that's that is built into our tagline, our our motto. It's to improve life on Earth and within Mearth for all species. And the second one you hit you said you said exactly the words, which is amazing. Space is about science, research and exploration. And I don't believe that.

I don't believe that at all. I think space is about Earth and all species on Earth having a future. That's why it's called Mearth. I believe if we focus on research exploration in space instead of instead of which it is an expansion of our Earth space into the moon and out that we are act we're going to create a new ecosystem, a new economic system. We're going to create this new future where there's no scarcity. There's more land. There's more opportunity. There's more, new materials out there.

There's new ways of doing things, and that is transformative. And that's what we work on, and I you you you don't realize how much a part of this you've been from that one conversation in 2017. So if we focus on space exploration research, we're gonna go to a further planet and put another rover or another lander. If we if we could focus on expanding the earth's to moon and create Mearth, then then we've just we've blown the now there's infinite possibilities. Now we've expanded.

That's in my mind, that's the next step. I see you. You're amazing and I I honestly, I appreciate you being here. I've I I pick in my mind, I look for, we look for, interviews and that will fulfill a need that we're getting to. And I wanted you on not earlier. I wanted you one about now because we're moving into the phases where, we want to see the world not adds we want every class on Earth to have a little bit of space is what we call it.

That I grew up, but through all my education, I probably had 3 hours of space and maybe a day of sciences with the planets or 2. And I think every class on every planet and every school in every place all over the world, a teacher should take a day or 2 or 3 and teach the psychology of space, the art in space, the literature in space, dancing in space, new materials in space, flora in space, hue and and everybody teach space. And you are, to some degree, I'm gonna call it a role model.

It's not the word. It's it's somebody to reach up to because you've done such an amazing job. Thank you so much. I I honestly believe that you'll you could ask people. I've you brought up your name and and what you've done, and you've brought children around the world to together. I think you've done an amazing job, and I appreciate the work you're doing, And I I'm hoping with Project Moon out where we're going, you will continue to be a a part of our little bit of space.

As every every class, 5,200,000 schools on this planet, everybody taught a little bit of space, the world would be a different place. Thank you so much for your kind word, David. It's it's too wonderful always to talk to you. I always learn something new, and I'm also taking notes. Also took notes as as we spoke. I don't think as many notes as you did, but, you're very kind, and and I love the the concept that you're promoting and that we're promoting. Yes. We're promoting. That makes it's fun.

And I'm a go I'm gonna hold you too. Remember in that one day, you said whatever you need when we go to the uploading and sharing and doing, that you would be a part of that, and I planned on holding you to that when we get to that. So I'm so honored that you took the time today, your night, my day to spend the time with us to share some of your thoughts. I I truly appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Well, with that said, the I would like to say that I wanna thank anybody who is listening in, taking time out of your day to listen to this discussion. And I hope that you learn something today that will make a difference in your life and the lives of others to change how we live on this planet. Once again, the Project Moon Hut Foundation is where we look to establish a box with a roof and a door on the moon, a Moon Hut.

And we wanna do this to the acceleration accelerate development of an earth and space based ecosystem. So we're building a platform. We're building tools to make this happen. And then to use those endeavors, the paradigm shifting thinking that we just spoke about, those innovations and turn them back on Earth to improve how we live on Earth for all species. And with that said, Ron, what's the number one best way for someone to get a hold of you? Email me or do LinkedIn.

What's your what's your what's your It's the LinkedIn. LinkedIn's a got it. Email me in LinkedIn. That's the best. Run live now. It's it's written on the So it and the spelling is r a n l I v n e. Exactly. Okay. Just to make sure. And we'd love to connect with you. You can reach me at [email protected]. You can connect with us on Twitter at at project moonhut. We are on LinkedIn. We are on Facebook. We are on Instagram at project moonhut.

And so for that, I'm David Goldsmith, and thank you for listening. Hello, everybody. This is David Goldsmith, and welcome to the age of infinite. Throughout history, humans have made significant transformational changes, which in turn have led to the renaming of periods into what we call ages. You've personally just experienced the information age and what a ride it has been. Now consider that you might right now be living through a transformational age into the age of infinite.

An age that is not defined by scarcity and abundance by a redefining lifestyle consisting of infinite possibilities and infinite resources. The ingredients for an amazing sci fi story that has come to life as together we create a new definition of the future.

The podcast is brought to you by the Project Moon Hunt Foundation, where we look to establish a box with a roof and a door on the moon, a moon hut, through the accelerated development of an earth and space based ecosystem, then to use the endeavors, the paradigm shifting thinking, and the innovations and turn them back on Earth to improve how we live on Earth for all species.

And today, we're going to be exploring another amazing topic, uncovering another dimension of space, And we have with us Ron Livna. How are you, Ron? Fantastic, David. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. Ron is the director general of the Ramon Foundation since 2015, and the Ramon Foundation was named after Ilan Ramon who died in the Columbia accident in 2010, an organization focused on leading groundbreaking discoveries in the space industry through all different sorts of mechanisms.

And he and I met in 2017 while I was in Tel Aviv through mutual friend, Ofer Lapid, and we had an amazing discussion. And the discussion led to how they were educating students throughout Israel, his the desires to reach and change the future. And it was it's, I I just couldn't wait to get you on the program. So you're here today. I can't wait. Do you have, some bullet points for us that we're going to follow today? Yeah. Well, I have some some bullet points on our outline.

I'd love to start discussing by talking about the paradox of of the the the present of of education, of the education systems, or in the education methods that, humanity is using today. Okay. And then Number 2. I think this one will lead us to talk about different dimensions of of space. When when I'm talking about space, we'll we'll discuss the different dimensions because I'm not necessarily talking about the space industry or space research or the space market.

Okay. Okay. And at the end of the day, I'd like to talk about, our purpose in life, both my own maybe, your purpose in life and how space fulfills this purpose. That that I think that this is pretty much it. Okay. Well, so let's start with the first one, the paradox of of the present of education. So Before dipping in, whenever, you know, as as you you mentioned, I'm an Israeli. So my my my mother tongue is is is Hebrew. And, my bachelor degree is in literature.

So I really love languages, and and I love reading books from ever since I was a child. So whenever I'm stuck in a relationship when I'm talking about a relationship, doesn't necessarily, obviously, romantic relationship, but, you know, talking to someone or start walking with him, I'm always apologizing for for the language barriers. Because at the end of the day, in Hebrew, it sounds better, but I think that the person who cannot express exactly what he thinks freely, his freedom is limited.

And, so so I maybe I'll have some difficulties here and I I I you and I sat for hours. I have no challenge. You're going, I don't believe you'll have any challenge with me at least. And having lived in Europe and having lived in in Hong Kong, I do understand language barriers, but that to me is the texture and richness of life. It's to explore how definite the same word means something to one person and something else to somebody else. So I find that a richness and a value, not a a separation.

Alright. Good. So let's kick off. Okay. So so, you know, you just talked about the the Ramon Foundation. The Ramon Foundation, I came to the foundation 2015. Was, recruited by Ronan the late Ronan Ramon. When I was the the widow of Filanam, the first Israeli astronaut, and the mother of Asaf Ramon, captain Asaf Ramon, who died in an Israeli Air Force, a plane accident. And she founded this nonprofit. It was really inspiring that they'd mainly education.

Today, we're also empowering, SpaceTech, startups and the SpaceTech team here in Israel. You you've now expanded? Wow. Okay. Yeah. But we had a very good 3 years, 3 3, 4 years since since we last met. But but, you know, I didn't came from an education, nonprofit. So, I mean, I never did education except for, I don't know, the the studying in school and in university.

And, when I came across the the foundation, I started actually running it, I I met all of the wonderful education educator who worked in the foundation. And we started asking them about, their purpose in life, what are they doing in the the nonprofit, how they're inspiring children. And, I came from I I did business consulting, so I kind of, like, tried to set KPIs for everything thing and was very outcome oriented. And I we I think that I faced a very big difficulty.

I mean, because I didn't know how do we you set KPI for for education. I mean, what do you think, David? How how do you I I yeah. I I'm I'm I'm asking myself the question. When it comes to education, it's such a variable. How do you know that your school that you went to is was a good one? The typical measures are getting a job and doing, but I my wife, which who who's amazing at this, had never looked at education the way I had.

She had always said to the children growing up, your schooling is only 10% or 5% of your life, and that that there's so much more that you learn from everywhere else. So she actually measured it differently than I did. I looked at it as degree that would give you opportunities. She saw it as just a stepping stone to even bigger and bigger.

And post education, I would say that I learned so much more and and in a better condition better position after it that I was in university than while I was in university. Yeah. So I had one of my employees. He he said that, education is is what's left after you you, forget everything that you learned in school. Okay? That's what they said. And other people kind of said, listen.

There is, you know, formal education that you get in elementary school and high school and after that bachelor degree and may maybe you're doing an MBA or or masters and a PhD, but there is also a nonformal, education. Mhmm. You go up and you learn how to to be involved in society, how to interact with people, what are your values. But what I tried to focus on was how do you know that your school was good.

And, and and the paradox here of of the all of the education systems today is that you can't measure school by the by the by its grades. Right? Because at the end of the day, you mentioned that that you said, listen. Let's take it to the the the easiest one easiest, way to measure, schools, and that is, to see How much the graduate all of the people Yeah. They got a they got a job, and therefore they were it's a terrible, terrible metric. Yeah. But here here's the problem. You see?

I mean, 70% of middle the middle school children today will work in jobs that doesn't exist today. I mean, a child that goes to Israel in Israel now for 1st grade, it's 2,021, will graduate will will enter the labor market, at least here in Israel. 12 school years of school, 3 years in the army, then let's say 3 more years he's doing a bachelor degree. That's, like, 18 years from now. That's 2039, and he will retire at the age of 67, at least here in Israel, meaning 2081.

I mean, 12 years ago, there were no smartphone. I think that's I don't know. IPhone 1 was introduced in 2,008. Right? Mhmm. Something like that. 13 years ago in 2008. 20 years ago, we had no Internet in every household. 35 years ago, we had no computers. I mean, most of the apps that I'm using today didn't exist when I finished high school. So, I mean, how can you So how how old how old are you? I'm 37. Okay. So so but, I mean, how can you prepare children to an unknown future? Right?

So so when I graduated from high school, you didn't exist. Yeah. But think about the technology shifts. I mean Oh, yeah. It's amazing. When when I was a child, I remember my granddad talked to me about the fact that all of all of the children went to this big building to the town hall, in in Romania in in a small village called Dez, and they listened to this box that had voices from Bucharest, from the the capital of Romania. And he said, wow. That was amazing. That was amazing.

This was the first radio in in his his village, and and he he used to say and now I'm I'm doing Skype with with my grandson, which is phenomenal. My brother, studied. So did did his PhD in Berkeley, and he used to do Skype with my granddad. So, I mean, technology shifts so fast today that we are trying we what we need to do, and here is the paradox, is that we need to prepare children into a unknown future, and and and this is a very big issue today in education systems.

So what we figured out, and and and I'm I mean and and again, if you're trying to set KPIs, and and again, I'm coming from business consulting, do you need to have the same program for all of the children? I mean, the the foundation handled back then with, youth at risk and with gifted children. And the gifted children in Israel at least are going to to to initiate and start their own startups, and they will compete with all of the global high-tech companies in the world.

And the youth at risk would probably battle to get their family out of the poverty line. Do we need to set the same problem for each and every one of them? And and and I think that this was, like, the key issue that one of the key issues that we were facing when we when I came to the foundation. It it so what you so I let me get this right.

What you're saying is your challenge was that you saw that each child had its own separate needs and that there was one system, and you knew that they had to be met at different play in different places. Yeah. So so one, we know that we are not quite sure that what we're teaching the children will be still relevant in in 10, 15 years. Right? Yep. In 5 years.

2nd, we see different children with different coming from different background, and we're asking ourselves, do we can we set the same program to each and every one of them? And one of the thing that that came in across is that one of the the actually, with the, one one of the employees and basically said, well well, why are we focusing always on the material, on the knowledge that we need to to provide with all of all of the different children.

Why aren't we focusing and emphasizing on different tool sets that we need to emphasize them? And we came across to this very interesting work of the the World Economic Forum that basically said, that that smart education systems need not to focus on knowledge, but on tools, on skill sets, on competencies, on literacies, and on, character core qualities. And this was kind of a breakthrough. So so we did all of this this this nice work. We cut it into to, a one pager.

This like a thought that we had, and and and I think back then, I was still a consultant, but then came to the foundation. I wasn't the CEO then, but but they drove drew this thing out of conversation with the different, employees in the foundation and with other experts. And I came to the late one of Ramon, who was founder of this this nonprofit, and presented her with a concept in which we we're going to do, education.

We're going to to not work on the children's grade, but to do literacies, competencies and character qualities. And, and then she she looked at me and said and I told them, and, obviously, we're at the Ramon Foundation. So, we're still going to teach the children space and aviation because Elon was a a a fighter pilot in the Israeli Air Force, and we're going to do it, we're going to teach them aviation and space. We're going to focus on competencies, literacies, and character qualities.

And what do you think she replied? Yes. Of course. Basically said, yes. Of course. But why are we emphasizing space? Yeah. So, yeah, I'd But I told her, what do you know? Ramon Foundation, we're named Afri Land Ramon. And the the the I mean, it we focus on space.

I actually think that the space side of it and I've shared our story of the 2 of us meeting, but and I was fascinated by the discussion, is that you're teaching a a variable that is unknown in the middle of known constructs, And therefore, you get people to expand their thinking beyond even just living on Earth. And I think that adds another layer, another texture to a person's ability to rethink and reformulate.

So, yeah, I think the combination of time and space, but I I I think there's even more to it. What basically Rona hinted is that is exactly that. She said, listen. That that's really good. They great thoughts about literacies and competencies and character qualities, but when you're looking in space or aviation, they are not your target. I mean, she she basically set out tens of nonprofits all across the world, tens of programs, space programs, educations, that that are doing and teaching space.

Space is not a is not a goal. Space is not a target. Space is an instrument. Yep. You said, I didn't know Ilan Ramon, in person. I read his diaries, and and I knew his and I know his family. And what they basically believe in or what Elon believed in is that space is simply a tool to inspire people to be make them bet better people. So she said, that's fantastic. You can be in the domain of space, obviously, because we are space people. We're on foundation.

Nevertheless, never forget the the our paradigm. There are basically 2 paradigms in in in in space education today. One of them is the things that space is a major. Right? That you need to to to study space like you're studying engineering or physics or medicine or whatever. And that was the one that says, listen. Space is not a is is not a subject. I mean, it is, but but it's a domain that's very multidisciplinary and it's meant to improve our lives, in every one of the different majors.

So if if you want to study biology, you can do it by by, you know, watching Right. You can you can and grow potatoes on Mars. And you can study engineering, and you can study philosophy, and you can study, literacy. Correct. It's a it's a location. It's a it's a got a lot of dimension, but yet everything we do on earth. It's a if you were listening, I don't know if you heard me say that the reason for all of our work is we wanna improve life on earth for all species.

So we are saying we take these endeavors, this paradigm shifting thinking, the innovations, and all of those, the biology, the chemistry, the physics, all and turn it back on Earth so that it be it is a tool to be able to improve the lives of all species. So, yeah, this makes perfect sense. So it didn't make any any sense to me because I didn't realize that. Really?

Yeah. Yeah. So so I came to the foundation and started working, and and I realized that I need to focus on competencies, literacies, and and Oh, okay. Oh, wait. What what did you when you she said that to you, what did you think? I mean, I know you didn't think it, but what did you think? Like, she's crazy. This is not gonna work. I don't get it. What what what didn't Well, Juana was a very spiritual person.

Okay. So at the end of the day, I realized the fact that you don't want all of the children in the Ramon Foundation programs to to become, space engineers because, obviously, some of them won't be space engineers, and most of them won't be astronauts or at least not in the the next decade. Maybe after that, it will become hopefully, it will become much more common.

But but I I mainly I I I didn't realize the the depth of what you she said, that you actually kind of you know, you you've been doing this for for a while. So I came into the foundation, and and I met these children, and we did this program called the Ramon Space Lab. It's, operated. It's a very well known program here in Israel. We have competition that we're sending experiments into the ISS.

Actually, we're going to operate it next year also in Chile, hopefully, in Rwanda, and in Singapore, which is kind of exciting. And, I met these children, and they planned, a a an experiment that did mold the apples. They they basically they they their mentor told them, from the foundation told them, listen. Think about experiments. One of the children cut a green apple in his, kitchen. You know, after 5 minutes, oxygen came to the apple, and the apple became rotten. Right?

Yep. And, you know, this child thought, okay. What's what will happen in space? So I'll cut the long so we stow short. It it's a very simple, experiment. They they basically took an apple, sent it into the ISS. The apple came back, to the class. They left another piece of the same apple in their class. They wanted to look whether it got rotten the same. Obviously, the mentor told them, listen. It doesn't work like this. Let's go to to to to a level aborting looking at microscope.

And, obviously, I assume I assume that you know that the the the different bacterias, that grew in space is totally different than the ones Yeah. On Earth. Now the interesting part that I realized then when when I met these children is not the result of the experiment that they did, which was kind of successful, and they they published a scientific article with the professor that accompanied this experiment. The the interesting part was was the the the the process that they went through.

I mean, why an apple and not a cucumber or grapes or tomato or carrot? Do you know that? Why? Because of the oxidation speed in which you can see the changes that Oh, how do you know to time the exact Right. Minute or second that the apple's starting to get oxidized? I mean, maybe it's on the way to flow down the the to Cape Canaveral when when we sent it by DHL. Maybe it's on the way to I mean, they build it an experiment, on their own from a to z. Yeah. They timed it.

They they they they kind of the the Ramon Foundation mentor basically presented them with this question. He said, well, why are you using apples and not grapes? What did they say? What I wanna know. Okay. Yeah. And and what what did the chill the children told him when he asked them this quest these questions? Yeah. How do you know how to time the they told him, we have no idea. So we told them, okay. So Google it.

And the children googled, and they got into this professor who is an expert in in oxygen. I think I have no idea how to say it in in Oxygenation? Yeah. Oxygenation. From the Volcanity Institute in Israel. It's a very well known international, institute here. Academy institute. It does research on on different, agri tech and plants and basically emailed him. The professor loved the fact that middle school children are doing this experiment.

He invited them into his, laboratory, and they build it together. Now now this was absolutely fascinating to see this class and the way that these guys interacted with all of the programs. So the the our mentor, which is an educator, basically only posed them with different difficulties and told them, listen. Google it. And why did he tell them this? And and and when I met these children at the end of the day, I saw children that have these 21st century skills and have competencies. Right?

Because at the end of the day, when you have a problem in in project or in your business consulting or in one of the startups that you're investing in, what are you doing when you have a problem? You're googling. You're googling. You're looking for x. Well, you don't open an encyclopedia. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. No. But, actually, actually, one of the things that I do is I do interviews. Exactly. This is how I learn.

I I I think I showed you, and I end up with on an interview, I end up with between 10 to 20 pages of notes. So I'm I I listen to everything that's going on. So yes. A, you're listening to everything. B, you instantly think someone you meet a person, what's your value proposition for him because, obviously, you won't open his heart to anyone, so so you need to open him. Yeah. You're starting you you know, you you you you learn how to pitch, and this is what the children went through.

They met worked with 3 different professors from 3 different academic institute. They had their pitch. They had their value person. They did it by, you know, by by an instant, by reflex. And and these children, I have no idea what they will do in 10 years from now, whether they'll have the the startup for It's a skill set. It's a skill set with a gym. Yeah. Absolutely. And I met them and I told them, well, what made you do this entire process? Because, obviously, you guys work on it days nights.

And and and they said, well, first of all, we love space. And second of all, our mentor basically he even he didn't even show us the way. Usually, teachers are taking us by the hand and, you know, and and writing down on the whiteboard. Our mentor comes from physics. They have no idea about plants and biology and about everything. So basically, he told us, listen, guys. If you don't solve this, let's think about a different experience. But here is the list of questions that needs to be asked.

Let's try to find a solution for them. And they were the one that led the this experiment. And and when I understood this this Hey. Hey. Before you go too far, are you going to tell me why the apple? Why the apple? Yes. You keep you brought it up twice, and I I wonder what why the apple? They could have done it with grapes as well simply because it was very easy. Basically, they did is that they sent a tube that had, like, different rooms in it.

The apple was they they cover the the apple with, like, a salty water or something like that. It kind of froze it. And what the astronaut did is that he opened one of the rooms, and then a fluid came and opened this defroze the apple Yeah. For 3, 4 days. And then he opened another room and then with another fluid that, made the apple, like, froze again. And this is this was 3 They were they Also, yeah. So they, maybe a different word would be the and you did a great job, but they had chambers.

So they opened up 1 yeah. Just just for clarity, they had one chamber. It was frozen, and this way it wouldn't be oxidizing. It would be solid. Then it allowed it to the water to dissipate, and now it was exposed to space. And then they refroze it again probably to bring it back down to earth so that they could test it. Correct? Exactly. Exactly. Thank you, David, for for your assistance. Well, no. I Yeah. But but but, I mean, think about the process. These guys are are Yeah. Children.

I mean and they they wrote a scientific article about it. Now, obviously, you know, it is amazing. They led the research. They led everything. And you're talking in here not about gifted children. You're talking about here a a public school in Israel in Kiryat Yvonne. And we have, like, dozen of examples. We sent over 31 experiments into the ISS in the last 5, 6 years, and, it's competition. So, like, to the final, we get, like, 10 tens of experiments at each year.

So but but but what again, what was under when I met these children, I realized what Wanna said. Because what basically I met them, and then I met their teacher. And what their teachers told me told me, listen. These guys are 9th graders. They know biology much better than than the guys that I teach on 12th grade grade. Yep. Even in in when people do students who are doing the bachelor degree.

And when I asked him why is that, he said, well, they had to understand biology because you brought for your judging panel, for the the judges that evaluated this project, you brought real professors that basically did them a design review and and basically ruined our experiments and told them all of the bad things and the things they need to correct. They gave them a genuine feedback instead of trying to teaching them because it's science. It's not education.

So and and what I realized during this process are 2 things. A, you need to give children the, you know, the genuine right feedback in a very humble and, front humble but for front forward way. Yeah. Yeah. A nice way. The second thing is that because the children really love the idea of sending an experiment into space, space inspired them. Now they competed with children who did experiments in physics, in chemistry, in material engineering, in medicine, all different topics.

So so it was kind of like a kaleidoscope of different subjects, different, things. Just just different disciplines. Yes. Disciplines. So Well, I I do have to I I have to is everything okay? I see I just heard everything crash in the background. No. No. Everything's okay. Okay. Just wanna make sure. I don't wanna let that go too far. Okay. So they're different disciplines.

When when our kids were growing up, we one of the companies we owned, we would dealt with all sorts of different companies, and I would take them on field trips. So if we were going to a warehouse that was large and automated, I would bring them. If we go to a print shop, I would bring them. If we would go to a company that did construction, I would bring them.

And it gives them that real life texture that something that they're working on in school or not in school has value and and can be participatory. And so this is great. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. I agree with you. But the thing is, again, and and this is basically what the Ramon Foundation is doing.

I I could give you other examples from our nonspace activities, but, basically, the idea is to use space as an inspiration of children to enable them to explore different opportunities and to work on on, you know, 21st century skills on competencies, literacies, and character qualities.

At the end of the day, we're working with a a very nice methodology that basically forces the children to do teamwork, forces the children to understand pitching, forces the children to try to explain themselves what's the value proposition for future partners, and basically force them to do something that they like to do within space, within the domain of space, within the different dimensions of space since at the end of the day, in order to you know, space is so wide so they can choose any discipline they they want.

And since our educators and our mentors are coming, you know, this is what we're training them. Basically, training them to to forget everything they learn and only to guide these children and to give them an extra value in in in general science, not necessarily, you know, to to design solar panels, but to to basically to ask them to look for the right experts and to do these interviews, like just like you're doing. So it it's kind of unique.

One of the things that you had, said to me while we were in Israel, which I thought was also amazing, is that you had emphasized to me the diversity of the student groups, the students from from age, from race, from religion, from all of those also play into it. How do you create or how does that affect how you run these programs?

Have to admit that, again, we're we're walking we're very diverse in when you're looking at the the audience in all of the the or the children that's participating in in all of the the problem, they're very diverse. Israelis, it's very fortunate to have, I think, you know, it brings also a lot of conflict. We have here ultra orthodox and orthodox and secular like myself and Jews and Arabs.

And if you're deep diving, I said give the different sort types of Jews that, you know, we have ultra orthodox and secular and orthodox. But in the Arabs, you have Christians and Muslims and Bedouins and Druze that are also, you know, Bedouins are also, Muslims, but they're quite different than the general Muslims. What what's interesting in space is that there are some languages that are international, arts, music, sports.

I mean, I don't know if you're watching, but but there is now a a Euro tournament, And there's the the NBA finals and, you know, within few weeks, they'll start the Olympics, so you can see sports as a national language. But, space is is something that's so inspiring and so international. I think that we're also very fortunate to live in the 21st century in which international collaboration in space is, is very common.

I I've I've shared our meeting with people over the years, and I've said that one of the things that you were you were so excited about is you said, people don't realize that we have Jews, Christians, Muslims, air we have all of these people, the students together. The this is not a homogenetic, singular type of educational system that the Ramon Foundation is bringing all sorts of children from all sorts of ways together.

When you're emphasizing on the in on, you know, on the common ground of curiosity and and of inspiration, and you're emphasizing on the different, you know, on the our desire to give these children different literacies, you know, and what I'm saying about literacies, I'm not talking only about math and and and, you know, technology is literacy. IT is literacy. You see? The way to understand science is literacy, and competencies. And at the end of the day, you know, you can go very far.

You can ask me, Ron, why are you walking in Singapore? So and I will reply to you. Why am I walking with us? Well, I we've worked with the school in the Isle of Man, and and you're asking, why do you work with these guys? Because I want these chill our children in Israel to practice their English. So the children from abroad are doing design reviews for the Israeli children because at the end of the day, it's a very flat world, and and the children will have to understand different languages.

And here in Israel, at the end of the day, we're witnessing Arab children doing design reviews and assisting Jewish children and Jewish children from Tel Aviv walking with the children in in Mahalo, in, Yalka or in, in, Kisra Smia, which are some Arab villages. And and they're talking science, and and they're actually talking science and they're grading themselves, and then they're coming back to the classes.

And the first question that their mentor is asking them is, k. What did you learn from the meeting with the children from Tel Aviv or or from Kislev? How do you think they are conducting their experiments? What can you learn from the process? What can you learn about yourself and and the relationship with them? And we're kind of, I would say it's it's it's becoming these these differences are becoming transparent.

When you're looking at the end of the day, there is the Israeli Space Week, which is usually at the end of January, and then all the children are meeting. I mean, they they are doing doing Zooms, and they are doing phone calls and and all sorts of things before that they are doing design reviews for.

Each each class is doing design with different and then they'll at the end of the day, in January, they are meeting in, the Israeli Space Week in, I don't know, Tel Aviv University or one of the big auditoriums in in Tel Aviv, which is the center of the country here. And, you know, it it's it's beautiful to see all of them are mixing, and I don't think that the the you know, when you're talking to them, they are not competing one against another. They're competing against themselves.

And and it's phenomenal. It's phenomenal. So let me take a jump. Sorry. Is, because I my mind keeps on moving towards how are you teaching the educators to educate? How are you structuring your environment that allows the individual teacher to thrive? I think that the first question that I ask a person that's coming to work in our education branch is this. And I'll try to ask you this the same question. Okay. Yep. What do you remember from school?

But when I'm talking about school, don't tell me about your first girlfriend or about hiking. Give me a good memory of something that you studied within the class. I Not going to 6 flex, though. No. No. No. I I I I have it in mind, but it's not I ended up becoming very close with teachers. So I one of the things that I remember is in I think it was I don't remember. I'm not a good on dates and years, but it was my 7th grade teacher, I believe.

It was a science class, and the teacher talked about saltwater creatures. And after class, I ended up with him. I built a saltwater aquarium, and I had fish and sea anemones, and I had all sorts of saltwater creatures in my home for years because of that one experience with that one teacher who was willing and saw was willing to partake and spend time with me, but at the same time was willing to help me to make the to learn. So that's what I that's one of the things to remember.

I don't remember the content of the classes. I remember the experiences I often had with the teachers outside. How old were you? 7th grade? Yeah. 7th grade. So I must have been, what, 14? Yeah. Boom. Correct quest correct answer. Okay, David. So so I got I got one a. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll and I'll tell you why. First of all, usually, what what's interesting is that some of them some of the mentors basically say we don't remember. We don't remember.

I said, oh, we'll remember something chemistry, but we don't recall anything that made us which is, if you ask me, quite horrible. You spent most of the hours that you're awake in school, at least in Israel when you when you're a child. And what I ask them is, okay. I want you to generate the memory of the child, of of the children that you're going to mentor, not to teach. You're going to mentor them this year.

I want you to create this memory that when they're, I don't know, 25, 30, 35, 40, 50 years old, they remember this your class. And the second thing that I tell them that I tell them that the best article that I read, since I came to the foundation, most of the the the the scientific articles or or the the the papers that I I read so far since I came to the foundation involved the the space industry.

But one of the most interesting paper or the most interesting papers that I read was actually written by, a sociologist, who did a research on the MIT alumni. K? Yeah. And he went to the MIT alumni, and he tried to find patterns. And he looked for the alumnis who are doing technology and science. And that this means that if you're working in, I don't know, in Apple's in in in Apple or Google, but you're doing sales, you're not doing science or technology.

Right. If you're working in Project Moonheart and you're designing something, that means that you're doing technology. If you're working in Google and you're writing algorithm, it means that you're doing technology. And he looked for patterns, and he gave them these very long questionnaires, and they answered all of these questionnaires. He found 2 patterns.

The first thing that was quite interesting is that the first time that these guys got inspired from science was, when they were, younger than the age of 14. K? K. The second thing is that they had a very good science teacher. Not necessarily when I'm saying a very good science teacher, not necessarily a science teacher that you they Right. Is is someone the right place. Someone's connected. Someone inspired me. Took them and build an aquarium with them Right. Just like you said.

Yep. And and and and this study is is a great one because because, you know and and, Bob Cabana, for example, the the Kennedy Space Center director, and he's this guy is an astronaut, Flew aboard 3 different, space shuttles, and he always saying, listen. My dad took me to the Smithsonians, and I saw the the Spirit of Saint Louis. And and this, I I thought about this aircraft and said, wow, daddy. Does it really fly? And this was the time that I thought about being a pilot.

And he was, like, I don't know, 8 or or 10 years old. So what I'm telling our mentors is basically, guys, forget about the talks. In our programs, usually, there are no lectures. No lectures whatsoever. The the the the same if if this was a conversation with a PowerPoint on it, I would show you that the the same class that my grandmother studied in Poland in 1930 is the same class that my child is going to study in in in Tel Aviv in 2,000, 2022 with a whiteboard and and 20 desks.

In our classes, we're breaking this class, the the the the the, the environment of the class. We're working in groups. The mentor is basically going through different groups. You're allowed to use your cell phone, your iPads, whatever. And the idea here is to to think well, actually, we're not working with lesson plans but with different missions. And the children will need to do 6 or 7 missions throughout the years. It goes like this in every one of our programs.

Doesn't really matter whether it's space level, aviators. We're doing project based learning on the purest level because at the end of the day, I think that you you mentioned it previous to our call in our conversation. You study the most in your first job, workplace, not in university, obviously. The first 2 or 3 months is so, basically, we're giving children, mainly tasks and admission that they can at the end of the day, I want them to build a Gantt.

I want them to do something that they like. And usually, these children remember our classes. I mean, they are sending rockets, sometimes sometimes too high, and they're doing all different things, in this mission. Most of the Wikipedia articles in Hebrew that involve space were written by Ramon Foundation children in middle schools and high schools. Basically, because we're asking children to write on whatever they they want. Let's see let's see if you guys can do it.

So this this is how basically It's it's interesting because, even the podcast, if you look at the structure that we have here, is I don't know anything in advance. So I come as a student, and I don't have any questions in advance. So my hope, the hope is that the person who's listening to the podcast is learning alongside of me. And they, at the same time, might be thinking the same question that I have so that I'm asking the questions for them because I don't have prewritten notes.

I don't have 40 questions in front of me. And so while we can't do it in a podcast, part of the experience of the podcast is to help the listener to say, oh, I would have asked that same question. But if you have everything already known, you don't ask the same questions. So it's not exactly the same, but the this podcast series is to help people to explore something they might not have explored before. Like, I'm exploring with you. I didn't know where you were gonna go with this.

So the this is, yeah, this is cool. So the mentoring I I like the mentoring side of it. I like that you've exposed them to their history to find that. It must be a challenge to get them to break old principles. Nah. No? Not so much. Listen. Children today are No. No. I met the adults, not the children. I met the adults. Usually usually, the problem is the teachers. That's what I meant is that we have a mentor and a teacher, but but at the end of the day, they they get the hang of this. Listen.

Teachers are very frustrated. At least I don't know what's going on in the States, but at least here in Israel. You know, when I grew up, I grew up at the eighties, nineties. I think that when you grew up, you had the same you know, the the key question was, well, does the child learn more in school or from his family? K? Now today, this question is so irrelevant. These children have all of the knowledge in the bottom of their hand.

At the end of the day, they're opening their cell phone and they know when everything. So the only only question here is how can we teach them to ask the right questions, to pronounce themselves in a right to express them themselves? You you're abs I remember once one of our sons came home, and he said, I'm sitting in a classroom. The teacher has a copyright 2009 or 7 or 12 on it.

And he said, I have more current information on my laptop in front of me than what he's teaching, which is 10 years or 7 or whatever years old. And he was very frustrated because of exactly what you're saying. They're they already have the information. They wanna be guided. So okay. Cool. So, anything else with the paradox, the president of education? Are we on to different dimensions of space? I don't know. Go ahead and take the lead.

No. No. I'm I'm asking you, is there anything else that any is there one story of your well, why don't you do So so so I'll talk to you. What's one example that you found was the most amazing thing you've done at the Ramon Foundation to accelerate all of this? What's the one leadership thing? The thing that you took under your wing and you made happen. I didn't made that have anything happen. So all the different employees I'm I'm the director general. I'm mostly enabling them.

I'm always laughing about the fact that, we have at the moment 81 employees except for me. Okay. Except except for me, and, and probably we have now, like, a chief of staff, a COO. All of them are doing education. So I'm I'm the only one that doesn't do education. So I think it's mostly the employee. I think that I'm a social entrepreneur. So my work is to enable them to fulfill them their dreams. I can tell you that, these guys are amazing.

These guys I don't know what's I don't know how things going all across the world. I know that in Israel, there was a very big crisis for non profits, during COVID. But at the end of the day, you know, at least in education, educators will train to do education in classes to meet their children, and now they will force to do it it online. And we had a phenomenal year, phenomenal year. I think we're going to to expand we're going to grow in in 40, 50% next year.

I mean, the demand for our programs is is enormous even for kindergartens that can't do really remote, remote educational programs, manage to, a Zoom program for for, children in kindergartens, which is phenomenal. So so when you're asking me what's what's the best thing that I did in the front, I basically brought very good people and and allowed them to to express themselves. So let let let's go on then to the the different dimensions of space.

So so I think that the entire concept of I think we we we talked about the different paradigms in space education about the fact that there are some people that thinks that space is major than you study it like like you study engineering and and math and physics. And some of them are thinking space is a tool because it's multidisciplinary, and it can touch almost not almost. It can touch every discipline. I mean, we did a conference. We have a yearly conference that mainly, it's for education.

The, conference for education, space and education. We're doing it with the Israeli Space Agency. And this year, we did an entire conference about the nontraditional disciplines of space, arts, gaming, lots of things that, you know, involved brought poets and and artists and and dancers to to kind of teach different teachers how can they use space to inspire a dancing class about space. It was a blast.

So No. I I I you're so you're so spot on that it's amazing how much it parallels what we talk about. I I don't like this concept of space is STEM. I don't like that because how much literature has influenced our societies around the world that were that were involving space? How much artwork has been done that has pictured the sky and given people inspiration? How many buildings or contractors have used space as a means to rethink something?

So you you're what you're doing is you're dimensionalizing space to be, not space, but another dimension. It's just another part of our life. It's amazing how how similar it is to the story that we tell. So and what's amazing here is that if you're taking you're going 10000 years ago Or or, you know, even if you're looking now, I mean, I never watched the sky stars. I never did stargaze until it came to the foundation.

When I'm doing stargazing, when I'm going with friends to the Israeli desert, towards the stars, I usually ask them how many certainties do you have in your life. I mean, what what's certain in your life? Obviously, both of us have families who that are kind of white certain in our lives. Again, maybe I have a language barriers. No. No. No. You're you're you're fine. How many things can change? I mean I mean, we can change the place that we live, we can get divorced.

I have no idea whether I live in Israel, with whom. I mean, in the area that I live in, there was every every now and and then. And but there there are certain things that I can assure you, and I'm always telling. I can assure that the northern star, Polaris, will be in the north within 15 years or from now. Even when I'm doing stargazing with children, I'm always promising them. I tell them, I have no idea where you guys are going to be.

But when you'll be in a hospice in 100 years from now, you will be able to watch a star. And and Saturns will come around the summer, and Polaris will be up on the north. And and and when you're going backwards and the the skies are the same skies that our ancestor witnessed, you know, 5000 years ago. And when our ancestor looked to the star, they were really important to them. And the reason for that is, a, because they told them what time it is Yeah. The sun and what date it is for the moon.

They told them places where they are at. There were no GPS and no maps back then, so they knew how to navigate. So, a, the time, the place, and also they gave the meaning of the different mythologies. There is no religion in the world that doesn't relay or reflects on stars.

Christianity, Muslim, Judaism, all of them have meaning meaning and looking for the stars, so so when you're looking at it, it's about time, place, and the philosophy, and the meaning of your life, both the different mythologies, space is there throughout the years, not only in science. Now I'm getting back to what Donna told me, that space is a way to try to inspire people to get better version of them, to to excel themselves, and and space is so inspiring.

Space is so you know, we're talking about different dimensions. I think that I read once an article that said, you shouldn't look at at spaces, again, that there's a language barrier here. He said, you need to look at space as a resource, as a market of ideas. It's something that's to to to use because it's so multidisciplinary and so diverse. It doesn't really matter where where you're going at. I mean, you'll get the better version of any engineers if they'll try to do space systems.

Because it will they'll it will get them offers into an unknown environment, and they will have to be the best version of themselves. And when you're talking about physics, well, the this one is the easiest, example, actually, because most of the Nobel Prizes today in physics are going to the subdomain of astrophysics. I mean, this is the the barrier of of our knowledge is in is in in in astrophysics. And these are all the traditional stuff. I mean, I again, I come from little to 1 sociology.

I now do lots of of space, technology in Israel in in our space and branch, but, this this is really outstanding. And and what we're trying to do is basically is to exposing children, to to to the different dimensions of space. Because at the end of the day, it's enormous, and in and it's infinite. When people you're asking me how you know, the the header that we gave is different dimensions of space. So how many different dimensions are there of space, David?

Hey. Look. It's the age of infinite, infinite possibilities and infinite resources. So I'm gonna say it's infinite. I completely agree with you. I completely agree with you. How many things are infinite in our lives? That's a that's an odd question because you could almost say everything is infinite, but you Our soul in space. Yeah. You you'd you'd want to say that it's not. It's it's just gone even going back to that question you, you said about use you you took a switch on me.

What what are we sure about? And my mind went one place, but I've written about the other is that right now, I can guarantee a lot of things. I can guarantee you a year from now, it will be a year from now. I can guarantee you if I live, I'll be a year older. I can you know, we can predict a lot. No. No. No. No. No. No. I asked about certain So so certainty. So okay. Certainties. Well, a year from now, I'll be a year a year from now, it'll be a year from now. Okay. So time is a certainty.

Time is a certainty. So, so there were there's a list of them, but I wonder the what you're seeing now is the different dimensions of space is in terms of infinite. I I go to molecules that there's an infinite number of molecules. There's an infinite expanding space. There's an infinite there's infinite possibilities for every outcome. There are a lot of infinites out there, but our minds would be challenged to accept many of them. I agree with you. I completely agree with you.

They're they're too they're too massive. I I I do this experiment with people sometimes when they talk about size, scale, and scope, and I say to them, I'm gonna do something with you very short, and you do it in your own head. I say, I I'm gonna talk about 5 people, 10 people, 50 people, 500, 5000, 50,000, 500,000, 5,000,000. And I go on. I say, I know exactly what happened. Five people could be a family, a group of friends doing.

5th 15 to only people could be at a bar, a club, some friends, a party. You got to 50 people. You might be thinking of a small event that happened, a conference. You get to 500 people. It could be a seminar or a a school auditorium. You get to 50,000. It could be a stadium. You get to 250. And as you go up but once you get pa once you get over about a 100,000, about 250,000 people, all the faces disappear. You can't think of a 1000000 people. You can't think of 5,000,000 people.

You think of a city, you think of so our mind doesn't have the ability. At some point, it has to transition to something that allows it to give meaning. Otherwise, it doesn't have meaning. So that's what I was kind of going to when you said the dimensions and and the infinite or the possibilities. It's just it's very difficult for humankind to be able to grasp the size, scale, and scope of everything. I don't know if I answered your question. That's you answered my question perfectly.

I own I think No. No. No. The the this is truly interesting. I think that it's really easy to accept that space is infinite much more than molecules because when you're going to this, that that is when you see the stars and and you realize it. It is. It is because the molecules we we cannot grasp. I I my my wife this is a sad thing, but my wife and I were talking today, and I was thinking about how our bodies are being eaten at and urinated on and feces on.

And all day long, our body is being attacked the entire time we are living. There are organisms trying to destroy it, and there's organisms trying to build it and is trying to defend it. And there's others that are are landing on it and saying this is new food. And but that's so difficult to understand that our body is just moving all day long. And that was a conversation I had before I actually sat down to do this interview with you. So it's a it's challenging.

Okay. So so how do you take your dimensions? You're exposing the children to different dimensions and, and you stargaze, and I I wanna get to that in a moment, but how do you get them to go beyond the beyond? Not the normal, but to see more. I think that it's it's quite easy with with space. Much easier than than the other things. I mean, basically, they don't teach them space in classes. They only see space in movies, which is quite cool. And the the space space as a brand is phenomenal.

It's it's very romantic. It's very, has some sort of mystery in it. Yeah. And what basically we're doing is that we're giving them access to it. Tell them, listen. You guys are going to meet actual people that went there because we're bringing astronaut to Israel every year. We are going to Zoom with them at least in the last year. You can send an experiment or an envelope to space. So you're going to touch it.

But, nevertheless, in order to get there, you'll need to do something that's quite special if you want to go get there. And you guys can do it. I mean, basically, we're going to meet children in the world just like you that did the previous year. And, and and we're basically training them to to do it. We're training them to dream. Then I and I I love the idea of the dream yet I wanna take this for a second in a negative direction. Go ahead.

How do you get them to see through I'm trying to say this nicely. How much b s there is in the space industry about promises that are on that are non deliver or undeliverable. That there are dreams that people promote as real and factual that will happen tomorrow that don't. There's a whole generation of individuals I've met who how do you do that? How do you help them? First of all, I think that the at least, I think that the the problem is exactly the opposite.

I think that the the key problem or the key challenges or the main successes that we're having is with Children Without A Dream. And and I I'll explain it in a bit. But I think the children today are very realistic about what's going to happen and what's not going to happen. I don't think that any of our children in the program thinks that we're getting to Mars in the next 5 years.

I think that if you'll ask them and we'll do an expert talk about the Altamis program, most of the children will say, well, it's really nice, but we don't think that that timeline is correct. Nevertheless How did you help him get there? Because it it I'm seriously I have these conversations with people constantly, and it's they call because of Project Moon Hut. They wanna connect, and then they say we're gonna have a 1,000,000 people on Mars or or 50,000 people in a known, an O'Neil station.

And I I I say to them, let's do some simple math. And it's amazing that adults cannot take a simple number, say, a 1000000 people on Mars. And I say, let's assume that we don't get there until 2020. It's 20, 30. That means 50, 25,000 people per year will have to go to Mars. Every year, 25,000 people pack up their homes, put everything together, get on rockets, and there's gonna be, I don't know, a 60, a 100 people per rocket. It doesn't make sense, but yet these people believe it.

So I'll tell you what the children do know Okay. And and and what they're holding into. A, I remember that Avi Blasbergar, the director the of the Israeli Space Agency, when whenever he meet children, he's telling them, listen. When I was 9 years old, I heard the American president says, listen. Within a decade, we'll get to the moon. And after a decade, I was 19 years old. I was in the Israeli Defense Force, and the Americans landed on the moon. Yeah. Right. Which is phenomenal. You know?

We Yes. We talked, I think, few months ago. And Yes. March last year, there was COVID. We thought it's going to close the world, and voila. Science let's be fun forward kind of kick kicks this this this pandemic ass. At the end of the day, you know, there aren't enough, vaccines and the the casualties, and it's it's horrible. Nevertheless, I mean, science wins you. And, so this is the first one. The second thing that's interesting at least here in Israel is Bereshit SpaceIL.

I don't know if you you I think, obviously, is familiar with it. But at the end of the day, you have 3 people that sat in a bar with no Yonatan had was a a did the satellites in in his his he worked in IAI for some time, and he recently knew something about technology and and theories comes from cybersecurity, but none of them built any satellite whatsoever. And they sketched, basically coke bottle size spacecraft that's going to get to the moon.

And at the end of the day, 8 years after that, they managed to land the first the first Israeli lunar lander on the moon. It was a hard landing, the capacity of the moon, but at the end of the day, they got it. It was that's another way at the end. Yeah. $100,000,000. And and, you know, on this this tiny spacecraft, there was a small sign with the Israeli flag said, small country, big dreams. So at the end of the day, things are possible.

Let's put our, you know, I'm putting now my hand, on my heart. You can't see it, but, I'm saying things are possible. Things are really possible. And we are going not my grand grandchildren. I'm going to see the first female lands on the moon and the first humans land on on Mars probably within the next decade or 2 decades. I don't know about the timing, but I'm going to see it definitely. But you you're actually gonna see a lot more than that and I agree with you.

That's what that's what we work on. That's what our team works on every day. I'm very conservative. I'm very conservative. Oh, no. We we are extremely conservative. Children children are realizing it, but they're realizing that the fact that things are going to happen at the end of the day.

Nevertheless, I think that they're really smart because at the end of the day, at least the children today, I think that they know right and wrong much better than than our generation, and I think what's they they know what's realistic and not. Really? And, yeah, I think that at least in Israel, we have a very innovative, country. I mean, I assume that you know this.

We have this highest percentage of start ups per capita, highest percentage of, high-tech employees in the labor force, highest percentage of patents per capita. So people are really innovative, and the way that, you know, that the Jewish mom used to, at the beginning of 20th century, to to wish her son will be a doctor or a lawyer. Today, what she wants is her son to do an exit. An exit means we sell you a startup to a global company and make sure My mom still wants me to be a doctor.

So I Yeah. Yeah. This is we have a a very good friend and and he's volunteering with the foundation. He was good very good friend of the Almon family guy at the Wiesman. He's a Jewish astronaut who worked in SpaceX also. And he always say, listen. When I came to space, my mom kind of asked me, well, are you going maybe to to apply for medical schools to be a doctor? Yeah. So it's a tough one. Do you do you have a do you have a backup plan?

Yeah. Yeah. So so but but, I mean, this means that that that our culture basically doesn't force you, but encourage you to to make technology breakthrough for the better of mankind, whether it's on medic medicine, agritech, food tech, fashion tech, space, whatever. So things are possible here. This thing is possible. It's mainly dependent on them. And at the end of the day, you know, you're thinking about the process these children are looking at. You know?

Basically telling them on on we we folk mainly focused on Ramon space law, one that sending experience into to orbit. If you would catch these children when they are coming to 8th grade and you tell them, listen, within 2 years, you're going to send something into space, they wouldn't believe you. But at the end of the day, they are sending it. So they are better breaking barriers. I think that space is breaking barriers.

There is something inherent in space because it's outside of our environment. We are the first species on the history of our planet to manage to leave the Earth's atmosphere into outer space. We're the first ones to send probes into other plants, to land a human on the moon, which is which is extraordinary. Whenever I'm talking to children, I'm talking about Yuri Gagarin.

I'm saying, do you realize in 4,500,000,000 years, no species, dinosaurs, birds, whatever, managed to leave the atmosphere, to exit gravity, and mankind did it with our minds. So the the there are really no limits, and and this is what's is part of the magic in space. And I and I think when you're talking about the dimension of space, it's mainly mainly mainly not in engineering, but in in the way that we think of. I mean, when I met you for the first time, what do you think that I saw?

I I don't know. I'm I'd be interested to hear. I didn't saw I mean, Project Moon Hunt isn't engineering. No. You talked about Roger Bannister. Yeah. The Roger Bannister's wow. Very good. Yes. The Roger Bannister space. Once we broke the mental barrier, we everybody did it. Yeah. That it's not the it's not I don't even remember. He ran for 1 mile, 2 kilometers. How much did he run? I, he broke the mile in Broke the mile. Just just shy. Very, very, very shy.

And I don't even know the exact numbers, maybe I should. Of the it was it was said it was physiologically and sociological physiologically and so, physiologically and mentally, impossible to break the 1 minute mile. And once he did, right after it, other people broke it because they knew it was possible. Yeah. So, basically what what you basically said, listen. The the the track is not physical. Yeah. It's not physical.

Yeah. I mean, you you could look at the, you know, the the track and the sand on it or or whatever, the cement or I don't know what's what was on. Many stills I I I I probably should look these things up, but no. Yeah. But but, I mean, this is what I remember and the fact that you you drew a lot of wrote a lot of notes. But at at the end of the day, I mean, it's it's it's what's beneath it when That that I drew a lot of notes. That's what I'm known for. I'm taking notes constantly. Okay?

Okay. That's cool. That's interesting that you did. What else? Was it I mean, it was the mental side that we were going to do something different? It's because I'm not a space person at all. I I and I'm even amazed that you're doing stargazing. People now now I had a I was I had a conversation with, in Balco. I think Bal is the the the senior space woman in Israel space engineer in Israel. She's amazing.

I think she's was involved and in charge of, like, sending multiple satellites into space, dozens of them, health observation, communication, everything. And every time that I speak to her, I I have we have a very she she's now heading off the scientific technology committee of of the Hakim Mission, the 2nd Israeli Space Mission. And, the Ramon Foundation operates, which is a very interesting, endeavor. And, and I'm always telling her, listen, but I'm not a space person.

And she's like she wants to rip my head off. And she's like, you are a space person, Juan. You've been doing this for 6 years. You're an ISU alumni, and we're now bringing the ISU to do an executive space course here in Israel. Yeah. You're hosting a a a conference is you're inspiring people, you're doing education, you're working with lots of entrepreneurs, you're working lots of space companies here in Israel. You you are not a space engineer. Everything is okay.

But you are a space person, David. You're a space person. No. But see, I think I think you have the same tell me if I'm wrong. When I say that, I'm saying I don't wake up in the morning and say, oh my god. I wanna live on another planet. Oh my, it would be amazing if we were in space. I wake up in the morning and I say, with what we're working on, we have 6 mega challenges in this world today, and I believe that space will solve Earth.

The endeavors, the innovations, the technology, the, applications, the groundbreaking thinking, all of those things that we're doing are the only thing in my mind that will solve the challenges we have on earth that are coming like a tsunami and a tidal wave, however you wanna address it, into our future. And to me, this is a means to an end. It is the it it is something bigger than what we're working on. So I don't that's the way I look at it.

I don't look I think that we can If you would discover that the answer for all of these questions, these six challenges are o are the ocean, for example. Mhmm. Would you be an ocean person? No. That's my point. I wouldn't be an ocean person. So I think so so so, again, I think that what resembles us, what's what's what we can agree on, and and I think most that space is not again, in Hebrew, it says space is not. It's not a goal. It's not a target. Correct. It's an instrument.

It's it's something that we we we're using. It's beautiful. I love space. I love to do stargazing. I love to watch space movies. I love to Yeah. Star Wars, Star Trek, Battle Star Galactic. Yeah. Absolutely. I love it. But but but, again, it's we're not in love with it in the fact that that, you know, we think this is, like, this is the the the the the it's an instrument. It's and and that's exactly I say it's a tool.

The the bigger intention is if we have infinite possibilities and infinite resources, if we see the world as infinite, then we don't have scarcity and abundance. We don't have to fight one another the same way that there's a bigger playing field with the the concept you've heard about Mearth, moon and earth, is that we're expanding. We've got everything we need, and those innovations can solve climate change, mass extinction, displacement, unrest, explosive impact, ecological damage.

All of those I believe in my heart of hearts that by addressing what we're doing at project Moon Hut and meeting you, you are one of ours you're part of our story, is that it will come back. Those innovations will turn back on Earth, and they will solve. They will give the answer to what someone had never thought of before because they have to paradigm shift. They have to think differently. It will solve the challenges we have on earth because nothing I see out there is working.

Nothing where where 200 species a day are dying, going extinct. We are we are not cleaning our oceans. I agree with you. And I think that, at the end of the day, humanity or modern humanity always progress. I don't know any culture in the history of our species that gave up on better technology. Gave up on better technology. Usually, we're adopting new technologies, and we're embracing them.

And at the end of the day, I don't think that we'll be able to step back from the the way that we're living now. So we need to proceed into other plans. So so let's take let let's take this third one. Space fulfills our purpose in life. I I could wait I just like to Yeah. Where where do you take that? To draw a circle of the the education and the the the of the the space education and and to to to different dimensions.

So you mentioned that space can answer, you know, the the resources, the planet is growing, and everything. And I I would just like to emphasize that it's also very good for for the for for education and for inspiration. Because at the end of the day, if you're talking about competencies, literacies, and, character qualities, you need to form education programs for children that will be for global world that's changing.

That's very interdisciplinary because we want all disciplines to in to be included in. Very international because at the end of the space fits it like a glove because, you know, as we mentioned before, music, science, sports, or or Yeah. Everything. National. And also intercultural. Yeah. And what I like about, you know, the these are actually the 3 three eyes, I think, of the the ISU, the International Space University.

But but I think that I can see them in our day to day with the with educators, and with children here in Israel, that basically you can see how they can find themselves in this domain. They can express themselves. It doesn't really matter from which which domain they are coming or what do they like. They always find a room for themselves, which is important. And purpose. Yeah. What's your purpose in life? It it's a good question.

I received one of those Internet emails one day that said, ask questions. What's the most valuable thing in life? And it was friends. It was family. It was all. And the last one was to, life's experiences. And in my case, I would say that one of my purposes is to experience the experiences I'm capable of having so that I can fulfill what I'm potentially capable of doing. What do you want to fulfill? My my head doesn't stop. It wants to it wants to experience.

And so the fulfillment to me, the it comes in various forms. It could be on my birthday, I'm very private. I don't tell people about my birthday. I don't like to go out. I don't like to do so that fulfills me. But when I see a major project, my heart, my mind says, let's complete that. Let's make that happen. So there's an energy and an excitement that I believe that my life is about making something happen. I believe it's in it's built into me. It's wired into me. And that's that fulfills me.

It's doesn't that's that's it. It's very simple. I I don't have a complexity. If there's a tree outside, I just trim their trees. They're about, 15 meters high, and some of them are 20 meters to 25 meters high. I have all I have 2 chainsaws. I have all the gear, and I can spend 3 weeks trying to figure out how to do it. And then it fulfills me that I've accomplished it. Do you see yourself as an educator? Absolutely. Why is that?

Maybe I I would say that I do because of the way people ask me and refer to me and learn from me and by the behaviors in which I exhibit. I am an educator. So when I met you, I believe I gave you Paid to Think, I don't know, I gave you a copy of the book. I did that with a lot of people, maybe I didn't do it with you, but my I want to give and help people to see anew.

And if someone asks me something, I taught at NYU, New York University for 12 years, the students would we would sit for lunch and and after hours because it wasn't about the money. It was about the ability to transfer knowledge and help somebody to see or experience their own capabilities. And I learned so much from these students. It was absolutely through the roof phenomenal that I have used my entire life.

So I see myself I don't call myself an educator, but I believe that that's what people see me as, and I believe I do it by nature, by who I am. Did I say that okay? I have I have a very much more simple Okay. Way to describe education, I think. I think that education obviously is a lifelong learning experience, And I think that if you're making an impact on people, you're an educator.

I mean, I my my first when I was 28 7, I ran for I was the the big I was the chairman of the biggest, student bodybuilding in Israel, like a student union with lots of protests here in Israel and all sorts of things. And and when when when when I ran into office, you know, this this very interesting and and emotional campaign, what I told the people is that, I'm not interested in in, you know, advocating for for students in Tel Aviv University, the biggest university in Israel.

I'm not just thinking educating them. I want the the Israel's next engineers, mathematicians, lawyers, doctors, business persons, whatever, to be more involved in their community. And I don't think that they, learning their bachelor degree 3 or 4 years, think that they have to take social act, whether it's going to demonstration or volunteer somewhere, and this is my main goal. So I'm not looking at myself as a an an advocate or as a representative of the students.

I'm not interested in I'm interesting in educating. So so I think that when I think if you're a consultant, obviously, you're educating people. If you're trying to to But then then you you can you can include you as a parent, you're an educator. If you Of course. If you're a student and you tell if you if you educate improperly, you're an educator. If you if you educate with malice. So I would say What's improper? What's improper?

When I think of improper is that you're doing it as a means to do something wrong. So you educate somebody, so that they harm themselves, that they do you teach them in a way that could be harmful to them? I think I think it's Anything is teaching. That's all teaching. That's that's all teaching, though. I need to wake up tomorrow morning, and I need to interview a new, employee to the foundation. And it's basically to approve her because because Yeah.

The team already accepted her and, like, I'm the last barrier. And what I asked the the program manager is I asked the, the girl's name is Ophill. Maybe she'll listen to this podcast. But but what what what I asked her manager is, okay. So tell me, do you think you can walk it with her? She said, well, yes. Do you think you can educate her? And she's like, no. I don't want to educate her. No. No. No. No. No. Dana, you didn't understand this, I told her, our manager.

Do you think within a year from now when I'll meet her next summer and I'll ask her, how was your 1st year at the Ramon Foundation? She will say, I learned a lot. I improved my professional work. I improved myself as a character. I'm in a very much better position in my life than I was a year ago. And I told her, Donna, forget about, you know, the family issues or, I don't know, a car can hit her. Okay? But in in in a will the Ramon Foundation do good for her?

And Donna told me, her future manager told me, yes. I can work with her, and I can assure her that I'll improve her professional approach and and her performance, and and she'll have a very good time here. So I think Dana is doing will do some sort of an education, not in a formal way. She's not going to teach her Mhmm. I understand. Base engineering. But, obviously, she's going to work with them and and and improve herself. So so so so when it so sorry, David. You were saying?

No. No. I say I I I agree with what you've just said, and I agree that that is could be defined as education. The challenge is is to have impact on people kind of confuses me because you could sit in a room and design a new widget, and you have impact on people. You can, put down a beautiful road that someone can drive their car and be safe, and you can have impact on people. So I I think human a human that interacts or does something in society Okay. Okay. Yeah. I'll rephrase. I'll rephrase.

Did you understand what I'm saying? It's not it's no. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. I I was gonna wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. It's more like influence. Okay. Influence on the people around you. Okay. But that was not that was that was I have a friend who was I speak Spanish, and I would always say, I'm not sure, and I would say, I don't you speak incredibly well. And one day he stopped me and he said, David, stop it. He said, when you say something I don't understand or is improper, I will help you.

But tell me what you wanna say first and then the other way. I think you speak incredibly well. You have an amazing vocabulary. I think that in this case, impacting people was just not the right selection. It's not that you're not When I was 18 when I was 18, I did before my army service, I went to Ireland, and I did a trip on my own. So I went into an Irish pub in a lovely city in the the west part of the country, Unamega. Yeah. And I had a I had a drink, though.

And I met with the the, you know, Irishmen, amazing people. You come alone, and they become your friend in in 10 minutes. And I told them, you know what? I'm gonna I I have kind of shitty English. So they told me, why is that? So I thought, well, I have no vocabulary and no grammar. And they told me, well, so do we. Yeah. So, you know, so And I I often for my a friend of mine who is, Irish, I will take her Scottish. I will I will take my English.

I will put it into Google Translate so it comes up in Scottish, and I can't even read the words. And I send it to her, and she's always laughing because I have no clue what's been said. So, yeah, you have amazing lang you have an amazing language barrier. So in the word of impact, I think for you, you're bigger or different than that. So okay. So so so we we talked a little bit about education, about the way that we we want to influence the people that are around us.

And now I'll ask you something that's also part of your day to day job, leadership. Yeah. Do you consider yourself a leader? I, yeah, I I don't like these words, but I do lead. Yes. And I lead all the time, but I don't like words like that because I think they they leadership and management, I talk about in the book Paid to Think because people say, I'm not a leader. I'm a manager. I'm like, how do you manage if you don't lead? And how do you lead if you don't manage?

If you educate without lead leading? Can you educate without leading? Yes. Okay. Can you lead without being on front? Yes. So you can educate without leading, you think? You can they're not those words don't go together, but you can you can lead from the back very easily by giving people the tools that they need so that they can be in front. You can educate without having you can help someone learn something just by sharing. It doesn't have to be that you're educating them the same formal.

You share something with somebody. Think again. Maybe I chose the wrong role. Okay. You can't lead without guiding. Okay. That's different. And I think Can you lead without guiding? Probably not. You probably ask You can't you can't guide without leading. Okay. And I I would accept that more. Yes. And and, yeah, I think it's it's better than than educate.

I and I think that at the end of the day, what what I loved about the late honor Ramon, she passed away in December of 2018, is that her leadership was something out of this world. She was like, enabling leadership. Everyone around her grew. She was the leader for sure. She she guide us through, but everyone around her grew. And I think that at the end of the day, you know, you we we don't choose the date that we are born. We don't even choose then our name.

Our parent choose it, and and if you want, we can change it eventually. But but most of the things in our lives, except for, obviously, the stars and and the laws of physics are uncertain. Yeah. So I think what what's the the purpose in our lives is is to try to to to make ourselves and others around us a better version of them themselves. So And you believe space will do that? I believe that space will do that.

I think that in in in what we are doing now in the foundation is very interesting because we're transforming. And, basically, we are taking everything that we try to do in education, which is to enable people, and also some very interesting, cornerstones of of the our nonprofit that that I kind of got from the Ramon family and that we're trying to do the same now with, entrepreneurs.

I mean, if you would ask me what you're trying to do with children, I'm trying to make them realize their their dreams and to fulfill it. And what we're trying now to do is to do it as well with space engineers and space researchers. And in in in in which is quite interesting. And that's that's that's remarkable. So so when you were asking me about what I like in space is that I could find my purpose in life within this domain, in my position at the moment, the foundation. I'm not an educator.

I'm I'm enabling people, and I'm not a space technologist. I'm not an engineer. Nevertheless Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Do you not think I'm gonna turn this. Do you not think you're educating me? Oh, I'm I'm I'm I'm completely think that I'm influencing and I'm guiding and I'm that I'm educating day to day. I think that But you it's amazing myself every birthday. My I my birthday is at the end of May, and my wife does the at the end of May.

So we're going to a hotel without the children, and we're sitting in, we're trying to conclude the year and to set goals for the next year, which is quite interesting. Yeah. And we're always asking, what did we learn? What do we want to learn? And whether we manage to touch an influence, not to teach. In Hebrew, it's like the same thing, but but again, whether we have managed to influence the the people who are around us. And I'm thinking about the people who are around us.

I'm not necessarily talking about our children, our brothers, our father and mother. I'm talking about, you know, our coworkers and friends, our neighbors, whether we manage to to assist them. And and the great assistance that you can give someone is not to give them a a a good I don't know. Sugar when when he's he needs sugar for his tea. You know? My name is asked asked me.

But but to try to to assist him with something that, that he he's eager to learn or he wants to learn or he doesn't wants but needs to learn. So I'm thinking that I'm I do educate. Nevertheless But but the interesting thing do education in classes. No. But the inter the interesting thing about your the the the center of the space fulfills our purpose in life is that you almost have the same hesitancies that I have.

You don't want to be called an educator, but you do guide your teaching me right now. I'm I've got 11 pages of notes that I've taken. You've you've made me look at things a little differently. You educate, you work with other people, but you don't like these certain constructs, these certain words, these certain terms that confine you to us to being who you perceive yourself to be. And you do exactly what I do, you deflect.

And yet, we're both sitting in that same seat because it doesn't fulfill us. The terms I well, in my mind, I won't talk for you. The term being an educator, and that's not against educator educators, it doesn't fulfill me. I need something else, and that it fulfills somebody else when they you're an artist. It fulfills you. So I think you have that same. I think that at the end of the day, I think that we're doing education guiding, throughout our years whether we want it or not.

I think that I'm not doing it as a profession. I think that in the foundation, I don't teach children. But but teaching but to educator could be anything. Educating up, down, sideways, fingers. I'm enabling, and I'm guiding all all of the mentors and the managers. I completely yeah. I I I love it. I love it. You deflect it again.

So space fulfill for other people, not you and I, for for other people, you believe that space will fulfill humanity's purpose in life, or does it does it just it See, with space space, when you're looking in in in, you know, 10000 of years from now is not nice something that's nice to have. It's it's necessary to live. Yes. This is what humanity lacks now or on doesn't really understand it.

When when I listen to to different people that are visionary about space, broad history from Tsiolkovsky, from Brown, to Elon Musk nowadays, you realize that these guys understand what most of the governments and most of these startups and and scientists don't realize. Mhmm. In fact, space is necessary to live. And I think that in, you know, at the end of the day, you I want at least to touch my family, my community, my country, and and and humanity.

I think that, apart, not a significant part, but but a small part of a very big movement that's trying to amplify the fact that that we need to do much more space research, much more space exploration than we are because at the end of the day, it will matter more than other fields. And I think that the different dimensions of of doing space, whether it's philosophy, astronomy, engineering, science, you name it, can benefit mankind much more than than other other fields.

Can I can I help can I possibly guide you just add one other thing? Go ahead. It don't could you add to improve life on Earth or life for all species? We all it's always about humans. I agree with you. I agree. We it's that's that is built into our tagline, our our motto. It's to improve life on Earth and within Mearth for all species. And the second one you hit you said you said exactly the words, which is amazing. Space is about science, research and exploration. And I don't believe that.

I don't believe that at all. I think space is about Earth and all species on Earth having a future. That's why it's called Mearth. I believe if we focus on research exploration in space instead of instead of which it is an expansion of our Earth space into the moon and out that we are act we're going to create a new ecosystem, a new economic system. We're going to create this new future where there's no scarcity. There's more land. There's more opportunity. There's more, new materials out there.

There's new ways of doing things, and that is transformative. And that's what we work on, and I you you you don't realize how much a part of this you've been from that one conversation in 2017. So if we focus on space exploration research, we're gonna go to a further planet and put another rover or another lander. If we if we could focus on expanding the earth's to moon and create Mearth, then then we've just we've blown the now there's infinite possibilities. Now we've expanded.

That's in my mind, that's the next step. I see you. You're amazing and I I honestly, I appreciate you being here. I've I I pick in my mind, I look for, we look for, interviews and that will fulfill a need that we're getting to. And I wanted you on not earlier. I wanted you one about now because we're moving into the phases where, we want to see the world not adds we want every class on Earth to have a little bit of space is what we call it.

That I grew up, but through all my education, I probably had 3 hours of space and maybe a day of sciences with the planets or 2. And I think every class on every planet and every school in every place all over the world, a teacher should take a day or 2 or 3 and teach the psychology of space, the art in space, the literature in space, dancing in space, new materials in space, flora in space, hue and and everybody teach space. And you are, to some degree, I'm gonna call it a role model.

It's not the word. It's it's somebody to reach up to because you've done such an amazing job. Thank you so much. I I honestly believe that you'll you could ask people. I've you brought up your name and and what you've done, and you've brought children around the world to together. I think you've done an amazing job, and I appreciate the work you're doing, And I I'm hoping with Project Moon out where we're going, you will continue to be a a part of our little bit of space.

As every every class, 5,200,000 schools on this planet, everybody taught a little bit of space, the world would be a different place. Thank you so much for your kind word, David. It's it's too wonderful always to talk to you. I always learn something new, and I'm also taking notes. Also took notes as as we spoke. I don't think as many notes as you did, but, you're very kind, and and I love the the concept that you're promoting and that we're promoting. Yes. We're promoting. That makes it's fun.

And I'm a go I'm gonna hold you too. Remember in that one day, you said whatever you need when we go to the uploading and sharing and doing, that you would be a part of that, and I planned on holding you to that when we get to that. So I'm so honored that you took the time today, your night, my day to spend the time with us to share some of your thoughts. I I truly appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Well, with that said, the I would like to say that I wanna thank anybody who is listening in, taking time out of your day to listen to this discussion. And I hope that you learn something today that will make a difference in your life and the lives of others to change how we live on this planet. Once again, the Project Moon Hut Foundation is where we look to establish a box with a roof and a door on the moon, a Moon Hut.

And we wanna do this to the acceleration accelerate development of an earth and space based ecosystem. So we're building a platform. We're building tools to make this happen. And then to use those endeavors, the paradigm shifting thinking that we just spoke about, those innovations and turn them back on Earth to improve how we live on Earth for all species. And with that said, Ron, what's the number one best way for someone to get a hold of you? Email me or do LinkedIn.

What's your what's your what's your It's the LinkedIn. LinkedIn's a got it. Email me in LinkedIn. That's the best. Run live now. It's it's written on the So it and the spelling is r a n l I v n e. Exactly. Okay. Just to make sure. And we'd love to connect with you. You can reach me at [email protected]. You can connect with us on Twitter at at project moonhut. We are on LinkedIn. We are on Facebook. We are on Instagram at project moonhut.

And so for that, I'm David Goldsmith, and thank you for listening.