The Role of Evolution and It’s Potential for Improving Life on Earth for All Species w/ Pascale Ehrenfreund #50

Hello, everybody. This is David Goldsmith, and welcome to the age of infinite. Throughout history, humans have made significant transformational changes, which in turn have led to the renaming of periods into ages. You've personally just experienced the information age and what a ride it's been. Now we consider that you may right now be living through another transitioning age into the age of infinite.

An age that is not defined by scarcity and abundance, but by redefined lifestyle consisting of infinite possibilities and infinite resources, which will be made through a new construct where the moon and earth, as we call it Mearth, will create a new ecosystem and a new economic system that will transition us into the infinite future, the ingredients for an amazing sci fi story that is coming to life in your lifetime.

The podcast is brought to you by the Project Moon Hut Foundation, where we look to establish a box with a roof and a door on the moon. A moon hut, we were named by NASA, through the accelerated development of an earth and space based ecosystem, then to use the innovations, the paradigm shifting thinking, and the endeavors to turn them back on earth to improve how we live on earth for all species. You can go to our website at project moon hot dot org.

In the top right hand corner, there are 2 videos. I always suggest video number 1 and number 3. Today, we're going to be exploring an amazing topic tying right into project MoonUp, the role of evolution and its potential for improving life on earth for all species. Wonder where that came from. With us today is Pascal Ehrenfrahnd.

She's the professor of Space Policy Institute at George Washington University, president of the International Space University, just taken that over very recently, a scientist for decades focusing on planetary science and life in our solar system. Now that said, because of many conversations, I wanna go over with you very quickly how the podcast works so you understand its construct. There, Pascal and I had a conversation. We invited a guest.

The guest learns about Project Moon Hut, a little bit about what we are, and then we end up having a pre call. We discuss the topic we wanna go into, but we don't go into the details. I don't know anything about what Pascal is gonna be talking about. Interviews go any from an hour and a half to upwards of 4 and a half, which was the longest. So Pascal has designed her own program, and it's a conversation that we're having so that we learn.

So that said, right in front of me right now, I have about 15 pieces of blank paper. I don't know her outline. I don't know where she's gonna take us. So let's get started. Pascal, I know you have an outline. Can you please share that with us? Yes. Thank you, David. I have a very rough, outline because I think, we are gonna have a conversation.

And, the outline is just related to my fascination about, science in general, but in particular also science about our planet, how life originated, how our solar system originated. K. So are you skipping the outline? So what's number 1? Incredible earth. Edible earth. Number 2. Origins. Origins. Number 3. Humans, a step in evolution. 4? What could our future be? Future be? Number 5? Humans, venturing into further into the solar system. Next. Responsibilities. Zero number 7. Not now.

Maybe there will be. There will be. That's great. So so let's start with number 1, incredible earth. What where are we going with this? Well, I have always been fascinated about, you know, understanding where do we come from. And for that, you really need to little bit to understand how our solar system was formed, how the earth was formed, and, what is actually our place in the universe.

And so we have an enormous number of galaxies, stars, even now, since, since, some time we know about extrasolar planetary systems. And we have found, I think, more than 5,000 exoplanets, identified. Obviously, there are many more. About 800 or more than 800 of them are multi multiple planetary system, like our solar system. And so there is much out there which we will still discover. However, when we look at our Earth, it's a really, really extraordinary planet.

It lies exactly in this habitable zone of our solar system, which means that we have, liquid water in in in the shape of oceans, which are very important part for life. We have an atmosphere. We have a magnetic field that protects us from dangerous radiation. We have a central star, the sun, which plays a really, really important role. We have stable orbits of the planets because we have this Jupiter like neighbor.

I saw Jupiter, a neighbor, which is very, very, stabilizing somehow our solar system, through to through its gravitational forces. And when we look at our planet, life is everywhere. Yeah? Life has also prevailed, everywhere on our planet. We find life forms, in the very, very cold and and and and dry Antarctica. We find it in in in deserts. Has been on, the surface of the earth and then the oceans since probably 3,800,000,000 years ago. And, it has been pretty robust.

And, so it it is this important question, how unique is our planet and, how unique are we? Because, compared to the age of the earth, which is, 4,500,000,000 years, humans have only been on the forefront of evolution for about between 150 or, and 200000 years when we look at Homo sapiens. I'm gonna ask you just I'm just gonna ask because as you went through the look at our earth, I was I was constantly saying to myself, okay. I hear this.

We have a unique environment that works for our construct, and we believe that life in the solar system would have to be like ours in order to be life. I I just do you ever ask yourself maybe this construct is just one construct, and therefore, we will go to a very cold, very dark, very isolated, very something, the polar opposite of everything you say, and find a different form of life. Do you ever think of that?

Well, of, of course, we are looking at, a different form of life, of weird life, but, we know also, quite a lot about the elemental composition of the universe. We, know, for instance, that carbon is a very, very, extraordinary or extraordinary element, and our life is based on carbon. And, carbon is ever we can find it everywhere in the universe. A lot of, organic molecules, which we find on on Earth, We can also find, in, the different environments in the universe.

So, obviously, we are thinking that there could be different forms of life, but it is will be also very, very difficult to detect it. So, It could be right here with us. Right? Well, I'm, I'm I'm I'm just really a how do they would say, a scientist, which is is, I I have imaginations, but I also look at, elemental composition at at at science facts. And, when you look at, our elements and in particular of carbon, how it can actually create complex molecules, three-dimensional molecules.

It is a little bit like with water. Water is also so really, really fascinating and robbery, a really, really important ingredient for life. Obviously, we are looking at other liquids, but when you look at a perfect combination, of of, making a robust chemistry and carbon based life, then, I think we we we, we we can't really look at this kind of signatures in our solar system or even beyond, which are carbon based. So this is something what I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm quite convinced of.

Obviously, we will never know, what all is out there. It's also the problem, how do you want to detect it? You can actually only detect life as we know it. It's one of those as you were speaking, I'm saying to myself, it is almost as if a a culture on earth feels that they're so unique because they have their culture. And yet right around the not far from them by a plane flight, there's another culture looking at the world completely differently. They don't see the same social structures.

They don't see the same interactions. They don't see the same process of of organization. And I I'm one of those individuals who sits back and says, it's an arrogance for the human species to believe that we can understand the complexity of something or the that we are a a singular type of structure animal with carbon based that or or our planet that there couldn't be something else out there. It's just a thought.

I I wondered if you had that same Well, obviously obviously, this is something what you can think of, but, when you actually look at the evolution, of, which happened on earth and how humans came to be, it is a very complex and long term process. So as I said, 4,600,000,000 years, probably the most primitive life forms have originated between 3.53.8000000000 years ago. But humans are only here, since approximately 200000 years.

So, this is really giving you a sense how complex it is actually to form something complex as humans, and that there has been an evolution going on with ups and downs and changes. And I think this is something which is quite fascinating to understand how evolutionary processes actually shape, life and, also shape, of course, our future.

And I think one of the most fascinating things is how, actually, life is interacting with all the, environmental changes because environment and life are, how do you say it, strongly strongly interacting and, helping each other. And, I think this is something which is very unique to a planet. And, obviously, on on on on on other planets or eventually moons, these things can can can work in a different way.

But here on Earth, the outcome is an intelligent species, so intelligent that we we might not even live that long. You know? And, I'm always making this this little paradox with my, with my my students and and and and, you know, we have a clock, you know, of the earth, 4,600,000,000 years. And when you look at that, humans are actually like a second on that clock. Yes. How long how long are we still there, you know, on this planet?

And will ever anybody know that we have been here in case we are extinct. So this is something which, I think is quite dramatic. And, in particular, when you understand this 4,000,000,000 years and more evolution, on the earth, creating a comp a complex species, like humans and a very intelligent species. And then you consider what's what's gonna be the future, and, how do we, how do we shape, you know, actually our future? How we what do we do with our planet?

And I think this is quite fascinating, and what I'm a little bit, really sad, and and I think that people are not really interested by this question.

And if they, would be, really educated in order to understand our origins, you know, starting at the origin of the universe and, starting, you know, at the origin of our solar system and how we came to be, which we still don't really know, people would get more feeling, you know, how, special, you know, this planet, very likely is, how how special and how complex it is that we have evolved, and would have more humility and would have more respect.

This is something what I'm, what often goes through my, through my head. I don't I don't part of my role in what we're doing is we we don't step on certain types of things. We're not a political group. We're not a religious group. We're not. We don't have categories. But as you were talking, you're asking someone to accept the origins and and belief structures that came out of science. And there's an argument as to how science is science, how much is science is real to certain people.

And there are 5,800,000,000 I just did a quick search, so Google knows everything, at least today. There are 5.8 people 1,000,000,000 people who are religiously affiliated, and many of these individuals have a this whole construct you just spoke about is in conflict with their belief systems. So I I know it's aspirational to say that if everybody was, educated on the origins, you'd have to some people would argue, Pascal, you're going in the wrong direction.

You really don't know where it came from. We do. Well, I must honestly say that there are a lot of, people which can which, can have both. They can understand science, and they do believe, you know, and they have religious belief, and they believe in God. So this is something, I think, which is not, not not mutually excuse exclusive. Of course, not in all religions.

But I think, if we really, want to survive, if we want, to shape this planet and our future, in a way, that, you know, we, can offer this planet actually to the future generations. I think we do need to understand, our environment and, what is important on our planet, and we have to understand, what is happening, in with our climate. And, because I think it is a responsibility for us in order to to survive and to look at our future generations.

So if you were to tell me if there were three things that I need to know about this planet, what would those three things be? I think it is, it is to understand, you know, the, evolution of species.

It is, to understand how our how fast in particular, how fast of our environment, is changing and, what dangers, that, means for humanity, and how can we actually really be responsible and try to reverse some of our decisions, to, to be able to survive survive, at least a little longer on this planet.

And I think this this is a responsibility everybody has to think, and you cannot go around science in the way, that, to understand, you know, some of those really, really important parameters of our environment. I I do believe, they're important. I think the challenges of the 3 items you listed are so overwhelming to the typical person, and let's take 7,800,000,000 people where, I don't know.

The number escapes me today, but let's say 5,200,000,000 people live under the $3 per day number on a as a statistical measure. That's not accurate. I'm just kind of throwing out a a round number.

The the challenge of living everyday life, the challenge of giving an education that will be able to differentiate and understand this, I don't think that's gonna happen in the time frame in which necessary to make the changes that you brought up just in number 2, that our environment is changing quickly. How do you how do you solve for that, the fact that this is not a priority? What do you mean? For whom it is not a priority?

For for for the average individuals going through every day who's trying to make a living, trying to eat Obviously. Obviously. But, I think in in in some way, we have to, to change the awareness, that, you know, there are really, really important problems, on earth that we we have to to offer, you know, and planet to our future generation and and and that we, have to understand.

And the roots, you know, to to be able, they are lying in science and, and and and and understanding our evolution and our environment. And, explaining and and and and and and making people aware of that, I think, is is crucial. Obviously, we will not be able to do that for everybody, but, we will have to walk into this direction, because we have at least to convince people, that, we have to change sometimes our behavior as we are doing it now.

For instance, looking at all the, the different political decisions, you know, in in in in in Europe, concerning energy. And, I I They they actually the decisions in the decisions in Europe are being forced upon by in many cases, and and there's an a quick motion to to make the changes because of a political or a conflict going on. But a lot of the most a lot of the motion wasn't happening because people were No. That's I would not say that.

Europe is, very far far far Well, I lived in I've lived in Luxembourg. I've lived in Europe, Asia, and I've lived in the United States. And while I was living in Luxembourg, I've gotta say people drove cars everywhere. The infrastructure wasn't designed for public transportation. The, amount of waste that went on was is is just as symbolic as other places. I've worked in about 50 countries around the world. When I was in Asia, in Hong Kong, we had an unbelievable transit system.

We had I mean, there's there's good and bad. I would say that while I was in while I've been in Europe and lived and worked, spent a lot of time in Copenhagen, I didn't see the same type of unbelievable change that maybe you can articulate that's happening.

No. But, it it is going slow, like, everywhere on the in in the world, but, we, we do have a green deal, in Europe, and we have, the the the will and, a lot of regulations in order to go in the future, to have a green digital transition in Europe. And I think we are quite quite far, with, with the future regulations and with the ambitions. And there are at least many, many countries which work together. And I think, obviously, this cannot only be Europe.

It has to be done, globally, because, it it, all that in order to meet climate change or to mitigate climate change and to, to stay, abreast with all the developments and for our and and and environmental changes, we will need, really to work together globally. This is clear. But I do think that, there are quite some ambitions, in in in Europe, which are which are which are very strong. Yeah. So get getting back because we could tackle this a little later when we talk about responsibilities.

What else about planet Earth that when you say incredible Earth? Well What's incredible to you? I think, it is a a really, really very special planet, as I said already. When, we look at many different of the exoplanets which have been identified, they, we we do not know know that all these conditions, you know, work together in order to make a habitable environment.

So, as I said before, we find life everywhere on planet Earth, but, obviously, this was not like this, at the at the very beginning. So to understand, you know, how how life actually originated on Earth, that is a very, very, difficult question.

There are a lot of different scientists from all the different fields, being astronomers, geologists, geneticists, and microbiologists, and handle of other, scientists, different types which are actually working together in order to understand, you know, where or where the first carbon molecules formed, what were the conditions on the early Earth that we actually we have quite a certainty that, between 3.53.8000000000 years ago, eventually, even a little bit earlier, we have the first primitive organisms, small microbes called prokaryotes, and they had to live without oxygen because at that time, there was no oxygen in the atmosphere.

And, it took a long, long way, and, we're not gonna go through all the steps of evolution because I'm also not an expert in that. But there have been continents, arising. There have been continents, which, started to assemble and breaking up again. And there have been glaciation events. There have been mass extinctions.

And this is is a very, very, I would say, difficult period, you know, for over over over changing of changing conditions and building up, you know, and moving from primitive life to more complex species, up to humans. And, this is quite a fascinating situation because, you, are so much tied with the environment, and you cannot imagine that this is actually happening on another planet in the same way. So that gives you, obviously, the the question, are we unique?

And, I would not say, put that because as you mentioned before, I wouldn't say that this is arrogant. Yeah? It's not arrogant. It's, it's just I think it's a little bit of humility when you understand how complex that process is and how through how many difficult situation, it has gone.

And we all know this mass extinctions, and we know the extinctions of the dinosaurs, and then we know about the explosion, the Cambrian explosion where, you know, so many species actually originated, which was only 50,000,000, 50, 1000000 years ago. So, this 4,500,000,000 evolution of a planet, I think, is something which is extremely interesting and, should all make us, you know, think about our future. And, let us make understand, you know, that we should cherish the environment where we are.

We haven't found another planet which is, that extraordinary, like, our Earth, and, which has, you know, this protection from radiation. Just just giving you example. When you look at Mars, you know, Mars does not have any more magnetic field. It is completely dry out. There is no liquid water on the surface. The radiation is hitting the surface, destroying everything, on on the surface and in the near subsurface.

So even if Mars had very similar conditions to the early earth, also 4,500,000,000 years ago, it had a completely different evolution. And we are now trying, to have space missions to Mars and trying to reconstruct what were there conditions 4,500,000,000 years ago or 3, 3,500,000,000 years ago, where life could have originated on Mars? But Mars completely had a different evolution, so did Venus.

And, it is quite interesting, you know, to see how, how we need and want to understand, you know, our planet, and its uniqueness, and that we are actually here on this planet, and we actually should really do. Have this humility have this humility and and and and and say and and, how do you say it? Take responsibility. I'm I'm fascinated in in not as much the content, but the fascination that you have with the fascination of the development.

Meaning, my background is organic chemistry, physics, calculus, which you do know. I biology major in in university as well as a psychology major, dual. I spent a lot of time looking biology of vertebrates, and I I even I I as the type of student, if a teacher asked you to do a project on, for example, the biology of vertebrates. I remember this professor said go out and look at vertebrates and look at motion. You have to do 2 research papers on it.

And I ended up and I I ended up doing one on snakes, and then I did another one on birds, and then I did another one on deer, and I did something else. And I remember the top of the the teacher wrote the top of the paper, something to the effect of when it sounds like bullshit, it reads like bullshit, it is bullshit. What he was saying is, David, you're trying to get an a in my class. You didn't realize I was just fascinated. I I just did what I did because I was fascinated.

And but I didn't have the fascination even with all of that background. I mean, years of bio biology, chemistry, physics, calculus classes, looking at the world and where it came. I never had this fascination that you appear to have. So my kind of my question is, where does that come from?

Well, I I I must honestly say that, that all, the people I work with and the people from our field of astrobiology and also origin of life, they have this kind of fascination to understand how the first cell, was created. I mean, this is if you are not fascinated, then I don't understand. Obviously, I'm I'm I'm a scientist at heart, but, don't you want to understand where you come from? Or is it just or, you know, okay. Now I have dinner, and I watch TV.

Yeah. I it's a little it's a little different than that. I had a I spoke at Technion. Someone in Israel set had me speak at multiple places, and you probably know Technion University. I spoke at their, at their facility. And I talked about some of the things in Project Moon Hunt, what we're working on, and where we're going with it. And this gentleman came up afterwards. He is in his sixties and early sixties, I think it was at the time.

And he said to me during your presentation, and it was a discussion presentation, he said to me, I started to think about the fact that all the work I've been doing, and he does work beyond our solar system. He does far reaches the solar system. He said all the work that I've been working on may never be used. It's just pure research. And he said, I think I have to make a change in my life to work on things for the here and now and the in the near future that can impact our life on this planet.

And he said, I've dedicated my life to doing work at this point that I realized may never be used. And so I don't have that same fascination, yet I and I'm not an history buff. Even though I've done the research, I've done the homework, I've done it, I am personally a person who wants to build, create, and solve for tomorrow. So I have a window. Project Moon Hut is 45 years.

It's not a long window in terms of evolutionary time, but Project Moon Hut is a 45 year plan and what we intend to do to make that happen. And that is fascinating to me, what we can do. Historically, I'm not the guy who sits and reads a lot of history books. I'm not a person who goes back. I I I have some of the data, but that's not my fascination. So that's why I was asking you, where is you have this fascination, and it sounds like it's an intrinsic. It's built into you.

It's one of those things that just turns you on because it's who you are as a person. Well, it's not only that who I'm a person, so I think there's a big community out there, which wants to understand, you know, how the solar system has been formed because it's more or less our cradle. And, it's how is the you you you just said you're an organic chemist. So it's about chemical raw material, which is necessary for the development of life.

So there was very little, there were a few a few minerals and and and even a little organic matter on the early earth. So how do these chemical reactions on the early earth, have occurred and created organic molecules in ocean in volcanic rate, ratios? And then you had in this first 700000000 years, you know, of of of of our earth, so for 4 point 5000000000 years or the earth, you had terrible things going on. It was it's called the haden, hell in Greek.

You had comets and asteroids, shooting in into the into the early earth. You had volcanic eruptions, so very strong geological activity. You had a changing atmosphere. So, honestly, temperature fluctuations, and it was exactly in that time where you find more or less you you build up the first cells. Isn't that fascinating? Well, I you know, I as you're saying that, I'm gonna tell you, I I heard a fascinating story, but it's the timeline is different.

Where you're fascinated there, I was given we're looking for things that have happened in the beyond Earth ecosystem that have has impacted Earth that are not always linear, meaning we know that water filtration and air filtration or water purification, that is that's came out of the Beyond Earth ecosystem. The cordless power tools out of the Beyond Earth ecosystem, Invisalign braces. There's a lot of things that came out of offshoots.

So one company that I was referred to was this company, and I don't think I've said it on podcast. I don't remember. As I referred to this company by the name of Helios, and they are working on creating hydrogen fuel for the moon so that rockets can be able to take off on the moon. And we're having this fascinating conversation. We're talking for about 45 minutes to an hour, and he says, you know, one one of the things we had to do is we had to do this experiment.

So we went out we couldn't afford a new kiln, a k I l n kiln. We had to go out and we had to buy a used kiln. And we set it up and we started the experiment. We needed to get it to 1200 degrees Celsius, and we expected this reaction to occur. And it didn't occur the way it was, possibly not the exact perfect condition in the kiln, and we found that we found ten times the amount of iron ore at in this reaction than we anticipated. I mean, a tremendous amount of iron ore.

And they they were fascinated by it, and then they worked on it. They've been able to get that iron ore development down to somewhere in the neighborhood of about 270 degrees c, so they dropped the energy usage. And they have now patented the process, and the term I gave them was distributed localized manufacturing of metal, which today is not done that way. It's done in localized places and just shipped all over the world, and it's about 6 to 7% of all carbon output.

6 so that's pretty high, and this whole experiment was an a mistake. So I said to I asked the guy because I wanted it on audio. I wanted it on video. Right? I said, I need to record this. I said, were you working on solving for the moon, or were you looking to solve something for earth? And he says, oh, yeah. For earth. Wait. I said, no. No. When you did this experiment, were you working on solving for the moon? And he said, no. It was an accident. And I said, that to me is exciting.

That experimentation and working on something towards another directive creates something else no different than a 1000000000 years ago or or a 500,000,000 or whatever number you wanna use. I get fascinated by that in the future and the development more so than I do going back 500,000,000 years or 4,500,000,000 years. That's a solution that solves something. We could create iron ore and localize and have it right outside the city, and then we could use the metals right there.

No shipping, no transport, cleaner, less energy, on and on. Well, you you you you said you you wanna look for the next, 45 years. What is possible? But I think it is, quite important to understand that it took 4,500,000,000 years to have the brain for it to do that. I I that I that I This is this is something which which I think you have to keep in mind. And will it ever happen again? You know? Or did that ever happen again? Somewhere else in the universe.

So, this is where where the humility, somehow comes from, because, as I said, you know, real intelligent beings are here since 200000 years. And, well, it it it, until we are able to do really, fantastic technological advances like we do today, that's only very, very recent. So, I think it's a little bit, I think it's important to understand where it comes from. And I I don't disagree. I think we need some of that. The challenge is our focus is a little bit different on it.

And I'm looking at our outline, so we've got the incredible Earth, and I think we've been talking about Origins. Abs absolutely. Is there anything else with origins that you think is absolutely fascinating that I might never have heard about that in your history, you'd say, wow. This was something when I understood this. It made a difference in the way I perceive the the the way we are and what we're doing. I think this is a region. You know?

We have new results all the time, you know, coming in. And even in the last weeks, you know, there were really fascinating results, like, for instance, that we find all the the nucleobases which are in our genetic material, we find them in meta rights. You know? So coming more or less from, you have genetic results, from from 3 days ago.

You know that, the RNA, some of our genetic material, and, small, chains of amino acids have been working together in order very likely, to build, the first genetic material in cells. So, you know, we are getting results all the time, and I think, this is important, and we have to we have to, understand, you know, where we come from. We have to understand our solar system.

We also have to understand how our universe was formed, but that would take another show, and then you should take a cosmologist. Yeah. So let's let's be done with the regions. K. So let's go on to human, human That's that's that's evolution. And we have started that already. Yep. So, and, obviously, we have changed this planet in a rapid time scale. Yeah? And, we have to understand what we are doing to this planet.

And, as I said, when we are looking at the clock of the evolution and of of our our our of the earth, we are a second. You know? Of our our lifetime is a second on this clock. So how long are we are we gonna make it? And, will the people ever know, that, humans were there before or, will we be extinct? Or what will come after us? I think this is something, this is a question I think, a lot of people are are discussing, researching, and it is not something, what we should take lightly.

What's what's your take? What is your honest take on the belief? Because there's a there's a doomsday event. There's the one thing that has to happen, and the world appears the way we know it. What's yours? Yeah. Well, I mean, I must honestly say I'm I'm I I really love to, read, those reports, though they are very often long, but they are luckily executive summaries of the IPCC of, order, where hundreds of scientists work together to understand, you know, what global warming will do to us.

And I'm I'm reading a lot of those, those documents, and they have a small headline in the news, and then they are gone. And I am really wondering, how will it be possible if we do not make people really aware of it, of it? And I think it's not only done with great. It is really something where we have, to educate, you know, our our population because everybody can see this kind of changes on, on our planet.

Everybody can see what is actually happening, and, that we are really exposed, to, extreme, you know, weather conditions, drought, heat waves, fires. I mean, everybody sees that in the TV. Floods, landslides. I was actually just in Ecuador, and, you know, and I had just to stop for a few hours because of the landslide.

Yeah. So all this this incredible loss of biodiversity, rising of sea levels, ocean acidification, I I do believe that we, humanity, has to understand much more about it, and it's about science, I'm sorry to say. And we have to create awareness, in order, you know, to, to have a global to have global solutions. So, have you have you ever there's a a paper, and I'm I know the person. I don't know what's your title, but there were 17 researchers got together. One of them was Daniel Blumstein.

They did something well, they looked at a a 150 conditions. They put it into the climate change category with a 150 conditions, and they wrote a paper that was something to the effect of it's far worse than scientists can even grasp. And What is it? Yep. They when you what they did is they looked at them collectively instead of separately. Yeah. So when you see this step in you human evolution, by understanding it, where does that take us?

It is depressing, but, you know, being a scientist and you also have this kind of of here's your motivation going forward, finding solutions. I have the same. So, I, obviously, I mean, we are not gonna stand on the cliff and just jump down because we cannot do anything anymore. We will always try to do something, and we always try to go further. And we always try to find new techno log techno technologies, which bring us further.

I think this is the mind of a scientist or of intellectual, people, but we have to create this awareness in in in in in in in people because, having this really, I would say, very, very difficult situations of of climate change impacting, in particular, always also the, the poorest regions, on the earth. We we we have to work together in order to, to really solve it and to to make the people aware of it.

So I I I do believe that, informing education and awareness, and bringing society into the game and, trying to work with society is the only chance that we, can actually, you know, how to say, reverse this very dramatic future. Before we jump before we jump into that, can you you you gave the title human step in evolution. Mhmm. So what do you let let's take a jump and let's call it 45 years. Let's call it a 100 years. What's the next evolution of humans in your mind?

Well, We're gonna grow a 3rd arm? Or Yeah. We are no. No. I I this doesn't go so so so in 45 years, in a 100 years Yeah. We're gonna have to have a little bit more. What what's our next step in evolution? From from from looking at the time scales of evolution, there will not be so much, except that, you know, it might be already, pretty difficult, to to live on Earth, and it might be similar to some of the very depressing movies about the future on Earth. It might be very similar like that.

I think we're, the younger generation will have, worse eyes, you know, looking at the little screen, for, for 10, 12 hours a day. But, we will not have this, this, we will have a destruction of our environment, but I don't think that, humans will evolve so, so much. But we will get sick due to the conditions and due to the environmental conditions and more We might have more pandemics. We might have, much much, stronger, diseases, cons concerning lung and and and and and stomach.

And, we, might not drive that well. And, so, it is something where we have, really in a in a in a very, very near near future, to find, some measures where we can, help the population. So what is also gonna happen is that what we know until 2050, 2060, we will have most of the people living in cities. You know? We have, I think we will have 75% or something like that, which, would be living in urban environments.

And, in particular, urban environments, that might be helpful for social interactions and, a lot of help, but, it might also create many many other problems and, endless cities. And, so, it is a coevolution of, you know, teaching people of, trying to improve situation with new technologies, and at the same time, trying to mitigate with really leaps in technology the strong impacts, which we know are gonna happen.

The the number is that the it's estimated, I believe, it's 7 in 10 people on planet Earth who live in a city. Let's comp let's make a little complexity to that. If we have a 15 centimeters, sea sea level rise by the year 2050, which is estimated approximately 6 inches, 40% of the global population lives within coastal regions. Oh, nice. We can we could take Shanghai, New York City. We can take London. We can go down.

There's a lot of cities near the water, and a 15 centimeters sea level rise can create typhoons and hurricanes due to warmer water, air circulation patterns. We could have tidal surges that could be anywhere from 3 meters to 7 to 10 meters higher, which would cause flooding across these regions and the cities would be challenged. So when we talk about the you did mention, let's say, pandemic, so people leaving cities because of pandemics.

Do you see that type of transition for the human species to do you actually see them go to cities, or do you see things like the sea level water rise causing these displacement conditions, or we take conflict such as Ukraine and the total annihilation of a city where we have, what is it, 4 to 10,000,000 people who have left a a country and moved to another country. What do you see happening in that evolution? I mean, I'm living in a coastal region, so, I think this will be very dramatic.

It has already started. Yeah. And, obviously, that will also drive, people much, much more in in in the in the cities away from the coastal region, but it will also mean that a lot of people are out of job. And, and, so it it is a very, very difficult, evolution. And, I think we are already at the topic that, in in not not not to get too depressing in in in saying, well, there's hardly anything what we do. I always do believe in science. No. No. We're we're we're gonna solve this.

I don't have a challenge with it. That's that we will. So, that's why we have a 45 year plan. We don't we wouldn't have a plan if we didn't think we'd solve it. Yeah. So, I think it is really, really, really important to, I mean, we we we have started of of course, there are a lot of measures, for the future, but everything is going very, very, very slow.

And when I am am what is always quite shocking for me as a scientist, you you read the news, and then you see a small things about the recent ICC report. You see a small, report, the of the United Nations, warning, you know, about the thing, and then you have 10 other things, and then you have soccer. I I do believe soccer is important as well, but it is not on the level it should be.

The information of, more or less, how we survive in the future, must be, something which is central to our communication. And it won't be. We know that. I I have talked to people around the world and shared some of the things we're working on. I've been to meetings where everybody is so excited about the 17 SDGs. I've been to and I I ask them simple basic questions. I don't know. I I I you know, there's enough bad things going on in the world. I don't wanna hear about that.

There's the propensity and belief structure for for certain parts of society is that other people should be paying attention to this, but they won't be. They won't. I mean, Pascal, they won't. It's not it's it's yeah. But the fact that they should look. I should eat bet I should eat better. I know I should, but I don't. I should exercise more, but I don't. I mean, we we all have these things. But the effects on humans, the impact will get stronger every year. Yeah?

Because as we said, the, the gas emissions, greenhouse gas emissions are stronger. The seabirds are are gonna rise. We have dwindling ice and forest cover, and we have, really, very strong changes, as we already said. And it it has an effect, you know, on a a fuel security, on energy security, on we have we will have, many, many more disasters. And at one at one stage, people will wake up, and I think partly they did already.

So it's not so, that we can ignore it much longer because it is getting stronger every every year. We see that already now. Yeah? I So, And we can then we can then toss in, and I'm not picking on people who believe who work the system, but we can top toss in blockchain and the unbelievable use of energy while at the same time people are flying around the world for conferences for blockchain. And, again, I'm not picking on them. I'm just using it as one construct.

They're flying around the world to say that they're saving the world from tyranny or from, economic challenges, and yet at this they're they're putting more c 02. They're adding to the heat conditions in the world. I I'd love to believe that people are waking up. I just don't see it. Well, I have to say that, when you are looking at the at, aviation, honestly, the the contribution, is by far by far by far, as we know, percentage smaller than than than regular traffic. Yeah?

Yes. I I'm just using that as an example. Yeah. I I I don't like this example because I think, the aviation industry is is really not, is has advanced a lot and and, allows us to, to to be globally connected. And, it is the car, more or less. It is the industries, you know, which have the the large largest in particular, also the energy industry, which have the largest emissions. So, we have we have to be a relative, to that. But, I think we need technological leaps.

And, when you when you look at technological leaps, you also need people, which are really, really smart. You need people which are educated in a different way, of of thinking interdisciplinary, thinking out of the box, going in the in in into the future. You need, people which, understand, you know, the global, involvement, and you need people which can actually solve technological challenges. And we have a terrible problem all over the world of, lack in the. No?

We have hardly any people, which want to, really, study engineering and natural science in particular. It's getting better in human medicine, in in IT, even in mathematics, getting better, but, natural science and engineering is still something. And that affects practically every sector, you know, in in in in in this region. It's it's I come from the space sector. It's very dramatic there as well, but, it affects many sectors.

And how can we actually do this technologically leaps, when we, don't have people educated? And then additionally to that, you need people which are really, how do you say it, totally open minded and can, cross boundaries and, understand. You need people which are sitting on one table coming from many different backgrounds in order to solve a problem.

In particular, the the challenges which you are addressing and which you want to address in the next 45 years, with your project, you need, how to say it, an a a very different crowd and very differently educated crowd in order to solve these technological leaps. Don't you think so? Oh, and so I'll bring it up now because we did, we touched on it before we started the program. We have this we have 6 mega challenges in the world.

Yes. And the 6 are climate change, mass extinction, ecosystems collapse, displacement, political, socioeconomic, religious, you can add the list. Then there's unrest, and the last one is explosive impact. And very quickly, every a lot of categorically, items are stuck into climate change, and that's not it's not always there. It's a connectivity of all of them.

So if climate change could be anything from sea level water rise to temperatures, we've seen in India this past week, we add on the surface between 50 to 60 degrees c. We're now seeing it in Pakistan, but it goes around the world. So it's the Middle East will go to 50 to 60 degrees c regularly, so will Northern Africa, so will Mexico, so, again, around all the way to Indonesia, Cambodia, Malaysia, through to Bangladesh.

If we were to take the second one, which is mass extinction, we're seeing that also. We're seeing a huge percent of the reptiles disappearing, a huge percent of the large mammals around the world are disappearing, and there's so much data on that. Ecosystem collapses. Right now, Australia has 19 ecosystems on the verge of collapsing. We can then go to displacement, which is part of climate change. I mean, all these people have to go someplace. Animals move someplace. They fight.

Can't just think about humans, but the entire ecosystem is all connected. And last year in terms of, political or challenges conflict, last year was the number one highest in human history. There's been about 17,000, 18,000 recorded conflicts. Last year, there was 56 on this planet, more than any other year in recorded history. There's about 6 to 8 wars that go on regularly, but this was 56 as a conflict.

And ecosystem and then explosive impact are things such as overfishing and la or deforestation, which have huge consequences across the entire 6. And the thing about the 6 mega challenges, which is different than the 17 SDGs, we don't start off with what we consider solutions. We start off with what we consider to be the challenges. And we also created a construct, we believe, compared to 17 SDGs. I'm saying it because you and I started a little bit.

The 17 SDGs construct is very challenging because growing up, my there was a show in the United States. One of these things is not like the other. Well, the first two are no poverty and no hunger. Never gonna happen in any world at any time. One of them is climate change. Well, climate change is not the same thing as no poverty and no hunger. And if you drop right next to it as life below water and life in air, but those are don't even match the others.

And then you could take things such as, what is it, clean water and sanitation, but those are 2 different. They're not the same. You don't solve them the same way. And then there's one on there about strong institutions. And what is a strong institution? I would argue that there are many strong institutions. The Chinese government, the Russian government, the American government, the way they're running things. There are strong institutions all over the world.

So there's actually 26 challenges on the 17 SDGs, and within them, they're not clearly defined. So very quickly so that they're in there. So, yes, we are trying to our belief structure is that if we do the things that we're doing today, we will not be the only solution to them, but we will address the 6 mega challenges. No. I think I think, these, challenges are really, important, and we see how how things actually evolve, how fast they evolve. We are now in my line, what is our future already?

I don't know if 4 or 5 or something like that. It's, what could be our future is number 4. Yeah. And, I I just come from from from Ecuador, and I have been in the cloud forest. You know? And, you know, this is one of the countries where the biodiversity is still the strongest and Yes. Amazing. And, what I have seen there, you know, it was my first time in Ecuador. It was really, really amazing from the butterflies to the to the birds and, in this very, very special environment.

So, that, you know, this is all collapsing, and, this is a very, very important topic. There are many scientific studies how we can hoard that. It is so sad, because this this planet is so special. It has developed so many, amazing things and, to lose all that. But you're doing there? What what what was your intention? What were you doing research there? No. I have we had a we had a conference, for strengthening the space ecosystem. So, for for the space sector in emerging countries.

We have a lot of, you know, countries which are well advanced in in in the space sector. And in particular, also in in South America, there are several countries which would like to take, I would say, advantage of space data, and for the benefit of society and, of course, also taking, into account climate change and and disaster management and many other, things which we have discussed.

And, we are actually helping, you know, the International Astronautical Federation is actually helping those countries, you know, to build up a space ecosystem with their industry, their governments, and, academia, and so on. And so, besides that, we had a a a short excursion into the cloud forest. As you know, there's a cloud forest and there's the Amazonas. They didn't make it in the Amazonas rainforest because it's a little bit far away.

But, it was wonderful to to, to see such a new country, you know, being on 3,000 meters high and, seeing a little bit a new world, you know, if you have never been to Ecuador. And and, it it makes you also think. I mean, just just discussing these kind of topics, you know, you are actually how we actually develop. It's a Quito, for instance, is a city of 2,700,000 people on nearly 3,000 meter high. You know?

And, a huge city of 40, or, you know, kilometers in in in in diameters, and you you can drive through for hours. And, so how do we actually build and and and and how do we construct and and, how do we, build, you know, ecosystems and, economic sectors in in, all over the world. And, so, when I look at your your your mega challenges, I think they are extremely important.

They are the that but every activity, you know, in this direction, be it from the United Nations, be it from, many, organizations is crucial. But, what will bring us really further, and this, you have already explained, is to have really, technology leaps. And and and and this is what we have to, we have to work with because we cannot give up, when we when we continue this discussion and discuss about the displacements, the the loss of biodiversity, the terrible conflicts all over.

It is, something like, you have to stay strong as a human being, in particular, when you are science and technology background and say, well, we have to do the best. And, That's not the way you play it. You can't just do the best. You have to do it. Yes. You have to do it. Yeah. You just have to do it. You can't do your best because I mean Best is I tried. I I tried to score the goal. I didn't do it. I did my best. I'm gonna go home now. No. No. You have to you have to score.

So Yeah. In in You have to be you have to think out of the box. So what is I think what I see is still, very, problematic is that, people are still working in boundaries and silos. You know? Okay. These are the experts for for climate change. These are the experts, you know, how to build a city of organization. Yeah. The experts, which are looking for, for for transport solutions.

And if you don't see put these people on one table and let them break their their brain and their, then, I think we will not go anywhere. We have to learn, you know, to go over boundaries, to do interdisciplinary research together and to, how to say, exploit, you know, the expertise from different sectors from from from from from, different economies. And I think this this is a big problem still now. We are still It's huge. Europe. Europe. It is it is silos. We are working in silos. You know?

It's such a huge challenge because and not because. I'm gonna it's a huge challenge because the people the individuals at the table are often more concerned about what they're working on than the group is working on. And it's a challenge because we've siloed our educational systems. The cross disciplinary person is not the one who gets the the bonuses, the raises, the growth. And so, yes, we have to. So That is the key for the future.

And, I mean, working in the International Space University, we had 3 really famous founders, 35 years ago, which were very young, but they really created this interdisciplinary environment. So we have team projects, in all during the during the classes where people from completely different background, be it medicine, be it journalism, be it engineering, and so on, sit on one table and solve a problem, like, for instance, space and oceans.

And, and they have and, of course, that doesn't that doesn't go easy. At the beginning, everybody has many, many different, ideas, and they they need the preparation for the, for our for the future because everything what we are doing is connected. The climate change and the biodiversity and, that we will have displacement, of of animals and humans, and, that there will be conflicts. All that is very strongly connected.

If we don't learn, you know, how to solve problems, interdisciplinary, we will never succeed. It's very difficult because we've run we've run down that road of solving individual focused challenges and the pullback for individuals to have multidisciplinary skill sets is is a very it's just not an easy there are timelines, and I I will often say to people, okay. Let's take where we are today, add 40 years onto your life. So add a number on.

And if you have children or nephews and aunts, friends, add 40 years onto their life. Now if you add 40 years on, might they have children? Probably, for many people. I said, and those have 40 years on now. So what year how many generations could you have in the next 40 years? Some people say 3 or 4, depending on their age. And then I asked them a simple question. What do you see happening in the next 40 years? And answer that question. 40 years, you mean. 40 years.

Just 40 years using the 6 mega challenges. You can use your the 17 SDGs if you'd like. I know you're affiliated with the United Nations. Whatever one you want. Just take 40 years because that's a window. It's an it's a reasonable window. What is it happening in 40 years on this planet?

But the problem is I don't wanna I don't wanna say what I see happening because, as I said, I'm quite pessimistic about, this possibility of of, going very slow, ignoring a lot of things, and waiting until everything breaks down. And this is not my nature. So I do believe, there must be and will be, some, particular companies, entrepreneurs, organizations which come together and, do something really special. Yeah?

And, like you talked about the mega mega challenges, I think this is the way how we can make a technological leap if we are just, trusting that the system will take care of it. I think it is, the system will be reactive to what is actually happening us, to disasters, to, to to war, to, how do you say it, displacement. As you as you said, they they will just be reactive, but we cannot be reactive. We have to be proactive, and we have to do that.

That's there's there's an analogy that I don't remember who taught it to me, but I remember hearing. The person said if you ever see a firefighter run, then something's really gone wrong. Because firefighters practice over and over and over and over again so that when they show up, they don't have to run. They know exactly what they have to do and the timing they do it. And they say if you watch firefighters, they know that condition. They know how it happens. They know how to move.

And if you see a bunch of firefighters running, something went wrong. The challenge is you have to be practicing when there is no fire, and most individuals wait till there's a fire. And right now, I think the way you're saying it and being pessimistic into some degree is that people are waiting for fires. And when there are fires, they're reacting.

Yet they're also not aware of the conditions that actually exist if you're not a globalist, if you're not paying attention to what's happening in the 6 mega challenges. And I often will say, there will be no gender equality if the 6 mega challenges collapse. There will be no clean water and sanitation.

There will be none of many of the things that you want on that 17 SDGs don't matter if in fact you have 60 degrees Celsius around the globe of the equator as a regular occurrence because those people will have to move. And the waters will be warmer and the fish will spawn differently and countries will the the large animals will be killed because of food or whatever necessary means.

So this whole thing about technological leap has to be done in the background, in in your knowledge base around the world because I'm a I'm an optimist. I believe in infinite possibilities and infinite, the the age of infinite. Do you see any I I I I'm totally on your side. I I I I think this is the only way. However, I do still think and, I'm I I think positive in a way that, you know, involving, society and, trying, to improve education and awareness, is also crucial.

We will Yeah. I a 100% agree. We will not get that far all over the planet, but it is a necessary thing because it can just support, you know, this background leaps, let's say, like that. Why? I I I a 100% agree. I am so much behind that. The challenge is go to countries, and I think it's 25 countries in the world, don't quote me, are democratic. About 42 fall into that categorization. The most majority of the world has educational systems that an education is designed to support governance.

And the things that you're asking for are often contrary to what we're talking about. Certainly. Yeah. I I still do believe, you know, I'm I'm, educated in a democratic system that, you know, this, this is this this will be crucial, at least their way it's possible.

And, so, we we, we are actually on the way of designing a system that, we we have to stay positive, and, we have to be proactive, and we have to, support people, organizations, find communities, entrepreneurs, which work together to, succeed in in some technological leaps. It's not so that governments are doing nothing. They are continuously, politically, I think, breakthroughs concerning climate change, but we all know it is going very slow, and it might be too late. So But you're so nice.

You might be too slow. It might be too late. Okay. Well, I I well, you know, I had a lot of political positions. Yeah. I know you are. I know you're taking a political position. I know. I know. I know that, it is difficult, you know, to find consensus. I have been in a lot of leadership, positions. So I do think that a lot of, governments, in particular also, in in Europe are really trying, to go in the right direction.

And, it's just it is it is a very difficult things, and you should not marginalize those, the impact of that. Not one should not marginalize the the, the the will, you know, to go into this direction. So I think that that that doesn't help either. But I I wouldn't marginalize it. I that's not the approach that I see. There the if you take a laser beam and point it at the moon and you move it a centimeter to the left and a centimeter to the right, you'll miss the moon.

The challenge with finding solutions to any challenge is that if the wrong questions are being asked or the wrong solutions developed, you end up not hitting the targets that are necessary. So it's not a matter of marginalization. I there's a pod there's a a presentation that I'd given in Luxembourg about digitalization. It's on YouTube, digitalization of Luxembourg with me.

And I talk about how Luxembourg's direction, as much as it's admirable, they were advised to work on, like, a 150 different areas. But when you went through it, Luxembourg doesn't have the capital, doesn't have the time, doesn't have the, the personnel to be able to solve it. No one had gone through and said you really should focus on these areas, and you will get there. And the the challenge that it's not a marginalization of what Europe is doing, because I'm not picking on Europe.

I'm I'm a globalist. So it's not the marginalization of what the world is doing.

It's that if you take a macroscopic view of the world, and I'm asking you to some degree, I don't see to meet the timelines that you're inferring but not saying because you're being political, to meet the destination of technological advances that you're not saying that we need faster than they are right now and the climate change and the things that we've discussed, I don't see, and maybe you have them, real initiatives that you could point to and say, that's it. Follow that one.

Well, it is a combination of many initiatives and, obviously Name them. Name name name 2, 3, 4. You know, the the the the green and digital transition in Europe, is is is certainly something which spans over many countries, and the countries are trying to do the best. And I think it is a a a really important way to go because what you what you did, is also to bring all the people together on one table and trying to work on the same subject.

Even if you have a technological leap, if you have nobody who wants to follow it, that is also not something which helps. Yeah? So governance is always an an important aspect in in in in in in in in this entire, system how to save the world. We are now saving the world. No. Don't we? So If Even get to the solar system, we're still in saving the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The world and yeah. The solar system probably will live with, will live quite still some some more 5000000000 years.

But, the earth, that's the that that's the question. And, so, I think that, that, you know, you you have to to to to combine all the efforts, and, look at the education there where you can in democratic countries and where we are able, you know, to, foster, you know, technology. You have to try also to find alliances and really, try to to get a consensus of also establishing new technologies because that's also a problem.

As as we have, we know how to do, autonomous driving ever since a long time, and it it would all work. But the the laws are just so slow, in order to make all the laws, and and and to make it actually really happen. So, you know, things are all tied together, and, I think, it is a combination of, having great, technological leaps, walking into the disciplinary, going in a, in a direction to find consensus, with with with different governments.

And, I think So you you you named the group you named the green and digital trans Transition. Transition. Transformation. Give me another give me another one that you feel is right on that path. Well, honestly, I mean, everything what, I I must honestly say that, I come from the space sector, and we we have, an incredibly important tool for solving many of those, issues which we have been discussed now, and these are our observations, and, of course, also satellite technology.

And, this is, is really crucial because we can have a global look when we are going out into space. And when we look with satellites back to Earth, we can go and and and see. We can look at with radar satellites, at illegal deforestation happening at night. You know? We can really, look in into the regions of, and and and help with disaster management. We can do predictions, you know, about, food security.

There are so many space data which will be which are crucial and, will be crucial, and it's a it's a it's a sector which has been really booming since It's absolutely been booming, and the and the data is great. Yeah. We do we do have the we do have the 6 mega challenges, and one of them is unrest. And I'm gonna I'm gonna say that I was ignorant as the next person. I didn't realize how much food security relied on Ukraine. Mhmm. I didn't realize that.

Many people, many people, while we in Europe, we we we we we know that, but I think many people did not know. But when you look at at at at, for instance, satellite data, many of those, things which we have been discussed being biodiversity, even looking at, you know, of course, of of of unrest and troops displacing, we can we can have a look from outside of the, you know, onto the onto our world and, get a lot of information how we can improve.

And we are probably, not not yet in in in in in in my point, what, 5, 6 humans venturing into the solar system or in space, but we are on a step towards that. This, the space economy is, I think, contributing about 0.6% of the global GDP now, but it has incredibly, advanced in the in the in in the last, 10 15 years. And it has been really commercial. I would actually it's an easier way for people to digest it, Pasquale, because I this is what I say to people.

Take your life and try to imagine that space technology and it's beyond earth technologies are how much of your day every day is reliant on it? Oh, yeah. And then this this call, you you looked at weather on your phone. You made a call to somebody. You you have air filtration, water filtration. You've got the the driving your GPS systems. You've got farming runs by the, GPS being able to deliver. The tires that we have have the the bumps in a road when you go, it was up your road.

That was developed by Beyond Earth Ecosystems. There's there are thousands of innovations we don't realize every day. Scratch resistant lenses, freeze dried food. When you use a power tool, the first power tools we use for beyond earth that are cordless. And now if you think of any any tool that is cordless, that came from beyond earth. And the and the list is endless. So it it's I think it's difficult for humans to get their mind around what is happening outside.

But if you looked at your everyday life Yeah. It is all day Yeah. What we do. We are completely dependent in our daily life on on satellite technology, and the problem is that people don't know it. They type on their iPhone, and I have no idea that there is actually a satellite involved. And, now when we look at the economic sectors, more and more, you know, of the space sector and the non space industries are connected.

I I even think part of that is I think part of that's even the nomenclature, the naming of it. It's not the space industry. And I said this we did this on with, Jan Werner the last time. I said Mhmm. One day, years ago, I said to somebody, space is not an industry. It's a geography. Mhmm. It's not an industry. There is no water industry. There is no land industry. There is no air industry. It's a geography.

So if someone was to say to you, I do life support, you could say to them, what type of life support? And they say, I do underwater life support. I do in cold temperature life support. I do in low Earth orbit life support. I could do in moon life support, which is different than life support that would work for Mars. I think part of it is the fact that we've structured our language, this language about the space industry, and it it's not inclusive.

So you can be a company on earth, and you could work in low earth orbit. And and and that could be an offering. You're not in the space industry. You're in the low earth orbit ecosystem. And I think part of it is just the the the language that we use for beyond earth. It just makes it complicated. I'm not in the space industry, so I'm therefore not in your ecosystem. And when I entered this ecosystem of space, it's very difficult to get into. People are not bringing you in with open arms.

You don't know that? Why? You don't know that? I I I I actually disagree because what we are calling, you know, many of our conferences and and venues, in in the recent years is always space for all. Yeah? And, we we are dependent. We are downloading terabyte, pentabyte of data, you know, from from satellites. And this data, they need to be, analyzed. They need, to be used, you know, for applications.

And we need a lot of people, which are not directly, you know, from the space sector or astronomers. Absolutely not. They're they're from they're they're data scientists. They are Computers. Yep. The computer analysts. Yes. Some companies which are finding an application with those kind of data. So and they might come from a completely different place. As we said before, they might come from agriculture.

They might come from, insurance or, or a completely different sectors, transportation and so on, medical, and we need, you know, to actually find all those people to be part, and working on on those data. And, and and and, I would say harnessing, you know, the benefits for society from those kind of data. And that's why, I think the space sector, as it has developed, has to be extremely inclusive.

And I'm saying that I'm saying by by partitioning it off into the space sector, we actually don't do it any service. I believe what everything you said is absolutely a 100% correct. What I'm saying is when you say are you in the space sector, people say, no. I'm not in the space sector. And I'm say to the I say to them, what do you do for a living? I'm a farmer.

Okay. So do you use do you have drivers who sit using GPS on huge farms, and all they do is they're they sit and they watch television or videos while the while the while the class 9 harvester is and and and it there's no driver. In class 9 harvester, it's all being run by satellite. The person goes for for 5 kilometers, 8 kilometers, doesn't even touch anything, is there to make sure it doesn't go off. The the the food harvesting, same thing. And they say, well, I'm not in this base industry.

I'm a farmer. No. You are. You're leveraging the ecosystem of Beyond Earth. Yeah. And that's my point. I think it's I think it's I think it's the way in which it's presented. It's our everyday it is evolving. I think it is evolving, and, it just also needs more information and more awareness.

And, I think it it it it will grow on everybody that we, understanding that we are, also, you know, with all these mega constellations and having, you know, Internet in remote locations, I think people will will take up to it and all the solutions which we provided for transport and and and for the Internet of things. I think I think people will, how do you say, start, you know, to to to be a part of the space sector and understand that, you know, there there there's importance.

It's a development, but They will they will leverage the technology that comes out of beyond Earth. But, I mean, there's one analogy which which which I just feel, because you said we need these technology leaps, and we need them fast. And you looked you talked about your 6 mega challenges. But when you look at the space sector, and I don't wanna go into real detail because I think you had other people on the on the show which are, even, more knowledgeable and, compared to me.

But this incredible development, fast development and entrepreneurial environment of the space sector changing. You know? That's huge. The space sector enormously into the commercial direction, whereas, you know, space agencies have been on on on on the helmet of of of any kind of, space venture for the, for for decades. And having this rapid change, having, I think, in the last 10 years, nearly 1700, you know, startups, in, funded by investment. You know?

Maybe not all of them will survive, but this, really, really I'm gonna guarantee you, and I'll make a bet on it. I don't bet. I do not. I'd I'd never gamble. I'll bet you they all weren't so bad. Yes. And I'm not I mean, we who would have invested in space before? Yeah? So now we have really a lot of venture capital, companies, which are actually really starting to get dedicated, you know, to the space sector and and and harnessing, you know, the the benefits for all kind of other sectors.

So I think the the this this was an ultra rapid evolution. And and I'm just the space technology analyst space tech 2021 says there are 10,000 private space tech companies and 5,000 leading investors. I mean, we we are still behind a little bit in Europe of, it's mostly concerning entrepreneurship. It's mostly the US and China. We have to say what what what concerns start ups, but I think it is booming all over the world.

And, it's going so fast that we with the governance aspects and the sustainability aspect. Up. Yeah. You are the aspects we have already a problem. So this is also something I think, which is important concerning the mega challenges. If you're going super fast, you know, you you, governance, sustainability, security, these are these are important factors which have to be, how do you say, factored in.

If it goes too far, then, you know, how many how many, companies we have now which wanna go on the moon, which don't know much about the moon except, like, trying to find a market. And you have to understand the moon before you go there. I'm sorry to say. Yeah. Let me explain how complicated it is. We have a tech transfer business we we're putting together. We've got, IP attorneys from all over. We have a Kirkland and Ellis is the 7th largest law firm in the world.

They have donated their services and time to us, And we have to spend hours on the phone going over at least to understand the US ITAR, the government regulations for the transfer of technology, or, EAR is another one. SIFS is another one. And we have to understand all of this because you can go to jail at least doing something in the United States, but there's a global compliance program for anything beyond Earth. All countries have these type of laws. What can be transferred?

Not all countries. I'm saying that improperly. Many countries have. Europe has. You cannot transfer to this person or to this way. You cannot be digital. We're finding out that if someone in Germany sends it to someone in the US who is a German citizen and I happen to be in the middle of it and I see something that was developed from or can be used for, I could go to jail for being on that, being a part of the receiving and seeing and sending the documents. It's complicated.

Yeah. Obviously, obviously, this, this this is still a big problem. However, you know, I think international cooperation, in particular in the space sector, is, I think, an important aspect and, has really made big strides, you know, just looking at the International Space Station and at a large scale, endeavors.

I don't think they would be possible, without international cooperation just because, you know, you you you live the benefits, you exploit the the the expertise, which is available worldwide, and and and and you you reduce costs. And you bring some sustainability to the international pro, programs, in particular for long term program. So I think it's it's it's it's a great things, but, obviously, it's it's, it's not easy. And, so So let's let's go back to the what is our future?

You we went in 2 we went in 3 divergent places. One of them was pessimistic. One of them was the beyond Earth ecosystem, and the other one was the technology driven. What do you see our future being when it comes to life on earth for all species? Yeah. Well, for me, it is certainly the technology driven one. I'm a scientist. I'm, an experimentalist also.

I do believe that, we have to find, you know, an advanced technologies, which will help to solve, you know, some of our problems in particular in energy and and and and and and and transportation. And I do believe that, you know, the space sector with its few, you know, from the outside of the earth can help us in particular in our global problems and in the main, problems we have cons concerning climate change and the disasters which we will have to master in the future.

And I say that now, without the negative thing, I think we we we need to be, what is it, conscious, you know, that, the future will not be easy, but we should not be too scared to say we are we cannot manage it. So this is a it's I I think it's, how do you say it? It's it's quite a balance to make. You know? You have to keep, how do you say you? You have to keep that optimistic and responsible in order to say it's not too late.

And but I think it is, it is something which is, which will be technology driven, as we all know, and that I think this is also your point of view. And Yeah. We're we're we actually in our teams, we have companies. We have a we brought in a radiation company that's done nothing beyond earth, and they do things such as, create the shielding used in airports for your luggage when you put it through the rack. I didn't know, and maybe you knew this.

Those little flaps, when you stick your luggage through, those little flaps are radiation shielding because there's radiation coming out of that box. So we have a radiation company. We have an energy company. We have different types of companies helping us, and we're bringing them together. They've never looked at beyond Earth. And bringing them together, we're looking at beyond earth in different ways because they've never experienced it. So they have to learn from scratch. What does this mean?

How does it impact? What is your gravity? What is 0 wetness or low gravity microgravity? What is, how much radiation is there on the surface of the moon, or what does a solar flare produce? And that's what we're doing. We're bringing together nondisjointed groups of people to do that. So, yes, I believe that it is the the technological evolution that we have to address.

And if if if if I can just say something, miss, in particular, also what we are doing, what is happening in the space sector, and and also what is happening in my field. You know? And and, you know, you cannot solve the the problem of the origin of life, with an astronomer or with a biologist. You need many scientists having a a rather different background in order to understand. What were the conditions on the early earth? What kind of organic molecules work together?

How is your, how can first microbes and in what environment can they survive? And so on and so on. And what where the geological history. So you need this this this group of people in order, and that works actually quite well in science, in particular in my field in astrobiology science, is an interdisciplinary science, which was actually really fostered by NASA. And, and and and and we are used. You know? I'm I have always been used to work, very interdisciplinary.

And in general, when you look at the space sector, I think this is also happening again as we discussed before. You know, looking at the connection between the space sector and other economies. So, I think this is a very good model in order to go into the in in into into the future and trying to, you know, to combine sectors and to let, let the the scientific and the, engineering community find, interdisciplinary, you know, technological, technical solutions.

I think that that is really something which is crucial. You you you in what you're saying is exactly not exactly. It's the version of what we're saying is we're at a point where reductionist approach to living, surviving on this planet will not work. We cannot we cannot reduce ourself out of this quickly enough. So we have to accelerate the innovations. We have to accelerate. Yeah. Otherwise, we won't make it. It's it's like a door closing.

And if we keep on doing what we're doing and we keep on having the same geopolitical challenges, we still have the the the biopsychological challenge on a global scale. We won't get there. So we have to accelerate. We have to put our foot on the gas on the technological advancements that we'll need to make it happen. And You have to remove boundaries. You have to remove boundaries and, complicated, governance which slows you down.

And and and through that, you need better stories that people can engage with. And the reason that I say space is not a it's not a industry, it's a geography, it's because what happens is the person says, yeah. I never thought about that like that. Oh, Dan, Dan from the American Institute of Astronautics and Aeronautics is going to do a podcast. He's coming up, I think, 2 months. And he loved that concept. But what it was is a paradigm shift for him because he said, you're right.

That's space is not an industry. It's geography, and it's more inclusive. So I think part of the challenge that the beyond Earth ecosystem has is the storyline. You cannot say yada yada yada yada yada. We will be on Mars. Yada yada yada. We will save planet Earth. You have to draw a parallel to the connection of what are you doing that will in fact do what you're saying as it translates to earth?

And I think that's part of the storyline that's missing, and it's a it's a challenging one that we've been working on for quite some time. So let's take this next one because I think this is a specialty of yours, humans venturing into the solar system. Yeah. Well, as I said before, we, the space industry has, made really a leap in the last decade. Even also space exploration is extremely dynamic. And, we have now really big space endeavors in the future.

We have a space station which will end, its lifetime in approximately 2030. It might even have a different timeline when we're looking at the unrest, which as you call it in your in your mega challenges.

And, so, we are looking at, how do you say, a new commercial OS orbit, probably having different, space stations, smaller space stations than, than the the current international space stations, which are mostly, you know, I would say, advanced by by by commercial actors, probably still with space agencies.

And we will create a cislunar economy because there is a lot of commercial actors in combination with space agencies which want to go forward to the moon to build habitats, to, make outposts, probably use, of course, investigate the the lunar surface and explore, do science and discoveries, but also to look for probably market cases and to in situ, reduce utilization, and then go from there onto Mars.

So there's, there are big plans, and, there are really, I would say, amazing possibilities, and, there are still a really important international component in that. So do you if you were to give me a timeline for what you just outlined, in real terms, and I'm gonna throw this out. I won't name names. You've known them. There have been promises by the year 2000. There have been promises by the year 2010. There have been promises by the year 2020.

There are promises by the year 2000 x. What is your what is your and you know the names. You know these players. I I Don't worry. I'm shut to use the space sector. Okay. Shut to use So so now the reason I'm saying it is so that I don't have to say it because these are it's just what it is. So my question is, what what is your or midterm, long term projection? 5 years, 10 years, whatever you wanna use. This is I'm not giving you the words that you have to use.

What would be your projection of humans venturing into the solar system? I I think, the first part is, that we have a transformation now in lower orbit, that we will move, we will not leave lower orbit. Nobody wants that. So even when the, International Space Station will come to an end of its lifetime, we will have smaller station. We will have, free flyers. We will have, you know, many different flyer, by the way. Sorry. Sorry.

We will have some kind of, planes which will do experiments and come back. Okay. So not Like like, they, yeah, they they go, Yossi Amin at a space pharma at Israel. They are out of they're outside of Europe. They fly up. They do the experimentation high enough in low Earth orbit, and then it comes down. Yes. So you will have, rides and, like, vessels, you know, going into space are coming back.

Well, just doing experiments, you will have probably permanent space stations, smaller ones, very likely, because, as you know, the International Space Station is extremely expensive to maintain. And, it will be much more versatile, this, LEO system, because, they, commercial actors, they need a market case. So they will work with society at large, education, maybe space tourism, obviously, also scientific experiments, engineering experiments.

So there will be, I I would say, many stakeholders which will be involved, and that's also so nice on the space sector that we have really all the space sector, the stakeholders working together right now. So then, you certainly know about the Artemis program, which, should start very soon, with the 1st crew flight and, Artemis 1. And, of course, the the projections of, when, humans will be on the moon, again, are currently 2025. If that's gonna happen, we don't know.

But, it it it it, I think it will happen in this decade. And, those kind of, I would say, commercial space stations, smaller space stations where many different companies work on. They are expected at the beginning of, the 20 thirties. We know that the Chinese, space station is just built now and will be ready in a year, and will hold about 10 to 15 years. We'll we'll be in orbit. So it's it's it's quite active what's going on. Going to Mars, that will take a a time.

And did here, I have to put my scientific hat because astronaut health is a very, very important topic. We have apart from weightlessness, we have the radiation aspect, as you mentioned before. We have isolation, nutrition, psychological stress, emergency situations, muscle breakdown, bone loss, cardiovascular problems, a weakened immune system.

I do believe that the most important, problem is still the radiation risk because, we know that we have this kind of radiation dose, which astronauts are currently exposed to and allowed to, which is a lifetime dose of 1 Seaford. And, after that, you might have an increased cancer risk, and we would have to understand the material science better and protect, people going to Mars.

So, honestly, I think, bringing humans to Mars is a question how fast can we advance science to understand astronaut health, and, also the, you know, how to build habitats, doing 3 d printing, building habitats, which in particular protect humans, when they are going to Mars, and how long can they stay there?

Because right now, when you look at the the numbers, from the recent Mars missions, you get 60% of your radiation dose on a on a on a travel to Mars and back, of your, of your your, allowance of of of of your lifetime. And so this means there's not much what you can do on Mars. And so we have to advance material science and and all those things. I think that will take time. I don't wanna give a timeline, but it is very great that space entrepreneurs, you know, say, oh, yeah.

We are making colonies of Mars and so on, but the science is done by the scientists, in academia, in research organizations. And, how fast they advance will determine when we will have humans on Mars. That that that is my that is my take, and I I wouldn't give a timeline, but it will be longer. Wait. So so can you take that? Because if you remember, I talked about 40 years not long ago. And I asked about the 6 mega challenges, and we we looked at what could happen over the next 40 years.

I mean, there could be a lot of things happening over the next 40 years. Don't know. I'm not gonna make the prediction that on this year, but if we have a 15 centimeters sea level water rise, and I hate to say it. You can't look out your you even though you're on the coast, you can't walk outside and see 6 15 centimeters, 6 inch. You can't see it.

Yeah. So we don't know what the consequences of increased storms, increased tidal surges, a warmer oceans, movement of of lobsters, more north, migration of animals, more unrest because of climate around the world. We take that trajectory. We take what you just outlined, which is in my in the way I think I kinda did the math here, we're talking into 20 thirties, to 2040. Where is that moon. Where is that yada yada yada yeah. To the moon.

Where is that, which I love, yada yada yada yada, and then we'll solve for Earth. Where does beyond Earth cause enough of the changes? Because we're talking about improving life on earth for all species. Where does this endeavor do enough of the changes to influence and make the, life on earth better for all species? It it it will help in the development of technologies, that's for sure because everything what we, we are more or less preparing, medicine, you name it.

There are many, many, fields which will be advanced, you know, by, you know, venturing into space. The entire, how do you say, cislunar economy, but also, you know, which is connected to the LoRa's orbit, will, I think, advance, you know, our satellite system, because it will not be anymore the the the geostationary orbit and the low earth orbit. There will be a combination of orbits. We will learn, you know, how to advance, you know, in order to have a look, at the earth.

So I do think that, and bring, humanity away from that planet. This this is not, not what's gonna happen, but I do believe that the few and the awareness of, our planet, us, will be strongly improved, with, space ventures and a lot of the technologies, which will be, really useful. And and not, I just say, an expert, but I do also think that there might be solutions for energy from space as I hear my my my expert colleagues, discuss.

And, when the space sector develops as fast, as as as now, I do believe that we will have more solutions, you know, for, for benefits for society on on earth, with the help of satellite technology, which is connected because, you know, we will connect the lunar orbit to the cislunar orbit.

And, obviously, we are venturing into space and also with humans, but, I think the important step, you know, for the mega challenges on earth is looking back on earth, advancing the sorry, advancing technologies, and, and bringing awareness, to society. The I'm gonna toss something in for you to be thinking about.

Project Moon Hut and our work, we do we do believe that the lever, the the possibilities of beyond Earth and the the thinking about beyond earth, not even doing, but the thinking about it will change the way we live on earth. Yes. But we're if you were to really look at data, let's say, and we'll use this number 10,000 companies, because that's the number today is 10,000, 2,021. So let's say there's 10,000.

I might argue, and you probably could venture a guess here, that out of the 10,000, only 500 will ever have anything that goes to beyond earth. Because most ventures don't fail in normal conditions. It's not just beyond earth. It's just the math of of running a business. The it's the it's the end it's the innovations that will come out of those companies that were working on something like I brought as I brought up Helios earlier, that they will work on something and say, oh my god.

I solve for something else. And those are the innovations because when you think about beyond Earth, there's there's a there's a shift, and I'm gonna get do this with you very quickly. I I will often say to people of right now, look outside your home wherever you are, and you're gonna build a 10 story building. You already you think about how it's how large it's gonna be, the color it's gonna be, how it's gonna be built. In a matter of a second, you made a thousand assumptions.

You made the assumption there'll be gravity, there'll be air, there'll be humans, they'd have, robots, they'd have tools, there'd be supplies, there'd be rivets, there'd be acetylene, there'd be glass. You made that there'll be a meeting. All of these things were invented over time. But the minute I say that you do the same thing on the moon, the average person says, I don't even know where to start. And that is a good place for an individual to develop new solutions.

It's that paradigm shifting. How would we keep cool in plus 100 c temperature? How would we keep warm in minus 150 plus c temperature? And it how do we how about oxygen? How how do we take care of our waste? How is air filtration or water filtration going to work? And I think that that is where in the technological advances you mentioned, I think that's where the that's where the real acceleration is gonna happen.

We have to say that, we are doing the partly already on the International Space Station. International Space Station has now 20 years of, scientific, discoveries, and, I think about 3,000 experiments, which have been done by scientists in 100 countries. So we have learned a lot about extremes, and we have been growing, you know, plants and and and and and did food experiments and medical experiments and material science experiments, which you can only do in microgravity.

So I think this is something which we have already contributed. It's not so, how to say, well known, but there are a lot of documents which you can read. So we have definitely started to do so. And, that has inspired a lot of scientists all over the world. And, actually, China is now finishing its space station. It's looking for partners, you know, for doing science and and engineering.

So, I think that has already happened, but, obviously, many of those companies, they will also work with space data. Yeah? And they can use it for so many, many different things, and it is up to their imagination what kind of market they find.

And, so, looking at at data, you know, which are for benefit of Earth or looking in the future, living off the land and developing new technologies, both of them will really have, I I think, a very important impact, you know, on on society, on Earth, and on our technological advancement. I'm I'm pretty sure, and I totally agree with you. The, last one we we tossed in at the end, it was responsibilities.

Yeah. And I know you've mentioned a few things that we've gotta know the history, but let's take the history out because we've discussed that. What's the responsibility then for the future? I'm changing your outline. What is the responsibility for the future?

Well, I I come back to my origins, I'm sorry, and to the incredible us because, I do think that the feeling of responsibility, you know, for, your life, this planet, the future generations comes from understanding better, you know, where do we come from and how unique we are, and, what is our space environment? What is our environment? Yeah? It's not only, you know, how do you say, our, our daily routines. It is, you know, of of looking beyond.

And, I think, space is giving us really an opportunity to look beyond, a little bit outside and opening, you know, I would say, our vision. And, but with this comes also responsibility because opening our vision and understanding in what quite difficult situation we are, in, in what kind of unique situation we are, that we actually brought ourself in this situation and in this environment.

I think this this, consciousness, I think, helps a little bit in having an, how to say, a strong influence in moving in the in a good direction. So this is one thing. Our responsibilities are for our future generations. This is clear. This is how society is built. And, we have to, leave the planet to our, our children and grandchildren, and we have to do the best as we can and working internationally together. And that sounds, of course, very, blah blah blah, but, there is no other way.

The the fact that you think that we will have, how do you say, the the avengers working on the 6 mega challenges. You know? The avengers have to be connected to society and, and, and and to raise awareness so that we are at least partly the people which we can reach, try to go in the same direction. I think this is responsibility. Like, we have, for instance, enormous responsibility in space.

As you know, we have thousands of satellites, which are launched, in in in the recent and in the forthcoming years. And we have to understand, that we have now it's like we have a traffic management on Earth. We have to now, space traffic management. We have to understand, you know, in what orbits, the satellites are, that they are not colliding, that, they are tracked, that we, we keep each other safe. And, and we have to learn a lot of new technologies, and we have to have international rules.

And, this is something what we have now to develop in space is in extreme speed. Yeah? There is no conference which is not, impacted, you know, by panels and and so on about this topic, about governance, sustainability, and space security. And, I think the same, really has to happen, much, much stronger on earth, and in particular, when we introduce new technological advances, which I hope and I'm dreaming of reaching.

It's a there are a lot of challenges across the whole list that you you just tossed out, and it's it's not going to be an easy road. No. It is not gonna be an easy road, but, we are not here to go an easy road. Oh, I I and it's it's interesting when I these podcasts are for me to learn. When I when I break it all down, it's we don't we don't make any money off for selling. Our podcasts don't generate money. We're not looking for that.

We're I'm looking to learn from people I think could challenge me. That's one reason people are on, and I'm looking to help or we're looking to help. Project Luna is looking to help people see the world in a different way.

And the expectation is is that some of these things that you brought up, the international challenges and cooperation, the the, technological advances that need to happen, the the comments that you made about Mars, all of those help to solidify, desolidify, transform, redefine the future of society. And I'm an optimist in this one way. I'm pragmatic in one.

I need to know what's going on, but I'm an optimist in believing that the work that we're doing and the work that other people are doing will make a difference on a global scale. And if you're and we're solving for global. We're not solving for a region. We're not solving for a country. We have people all over the world helping us. And our entire endeavor is about bringing bringing international collaboration together. So you you hit on many of those points.

Is there any last words that you'd like to add? No. I think I wanna thank you. It was, you know, such a conversation, in particular when it is not scripted, makes you think. And I'm sure I'm gonna sing the whole night, first of all, because I have jet lag, from, having been too long in in in South America.

But, it is, I I think, this is you know, as I am coming back to the first, words of this post podcast that it took, you know, 4,500,000,000 years, you know, to develop an intelligent species like us. And we have to use our brain, you know, in order to survive, to develop, to evolve, and, and probably right now, to save the planet and, to save peace and, look at the mega challenges.

And and I I wanna thank you just because it it it it it gives people like me, which are really, really enthusiastic about science and technology development, also some kind of food of of of thinking further and learning more. I think I I love to learn, and I hope that other people, do that too because, it's fantastic, you know, to be on this planet. There's every day, there's there's something new to learn about.

Like, I was in Ecuador, and so all those species, you know, in in the in the forest, we there's so much to learn on this planet, and we have to stay positive. And, I would say, serene in heart that we are that we will overcome challenges. If we are falling into a hole of pessimism, we we cannot function.

And I think, Yula, with your podcast and also with your ideas and so on, you you move into this direction, and I think it's important that that that people learn also to move into this direction. You should, I'm gonna toss this out. It's not something you have to do, but the International Space University, I don't know how many of them even know that we have a podcast. We are as you know, we're very different. And I from the first moment I met you, we had a great conversation last time.

I appreciate the conversation this time. We're challenging the the entire ecosystem in a way that's different. And the word there's there's 3 words in the English language that are very common. One of them is, problem, the other one is challenge, and the other one is opportunity. The word problem when you think about it, biologically, the minute you hear it, you go, someone someone comes to you, a friend. I got a problem. And we substitute or I've substituted.

It's a there's a book that I wrote, and Inclusive in there is this concept that a challenge mentally puts you in a position of solving. If I said to you, I have a challenge, you say, oh, what do what do you need to solve? If I say you have a problem, I don't know if I have time to help you with that. If I say opportunity, it kind of gets a little oversold. Opportunities could be to make money, to be involved in stuff. So we're challenged, and that's why it's the 6 mega challenges.

We need to solve those challenges. And so our project, we have people all over the world, as I mentioned. We're working on things in a very counterintuitive way. Everything from platforms to tech transfer to, immersive technologies, 3 d, 4 d, digital, haptic technologies, all of those. We're working very quietly. We're not public.

We don't wanna put we don't put a lot out there, and we're working very hard to be able to create this new future that we think is not we don't if you notice, it doesn't say to make, that there's a word. We don't say we're going to make life we improve life on earth for all species. We can't say it'll be better because we don't know what better is. It's relative. It's that we will have a place that we can live and thrive into the future. So we actually see in our narrative, and I'm using we.

There's a lot of me in here, but we see the next 25 years not being as nice and as comfortable. We have a lot of challenge to overcome. But in the next 15 to 20 years, we'll start to see a retransformation because 3,200,000,000 people will die, unfortunately, because or normally because of their normal life expectancy. And this generation in in 40 years, they're the people who are 20 years old today will be us, and they will have lived a life different than we will have lived.

And that's why we use this. That's we have a 45 year plan. It fits into an evolution of a new and different way in which we live on this planet and all positive. It's just gonna be different. So I wanna thank you, Pasquale, for taking the time today. I really do. I appreciate it very much. I do want you to stay on after we close off because then we could talk afterwards, but I wanna thank you for taking the time, today.

I wanna thank anybody who's listened in today to hear, I appreciate we appreciate that you've take the time to learn something new that will make a difference in your life and the lives of others. Again, Project Moon Hut Foundation, where we're looking to establish a box with a roof and a door on the moon.

Not about settlement and colonization, a box with a roof and a door on the moon, a home, a moon hop through the accelerated development of an Earth and space based ecosystem, then to take the innovations, the paradigm shifting thinking, and the endeavor, and turn it back on earth to improve how we live on earth for all species. Again, you can go to the website, project moonlight.org. We're working on a new one. But on the top right hand corner, there are 2 video 3 videos. You can watch them all.

2 of them, 13 is what I typically recommend. And, Pasquale, is there one single best way for individuals to get a hold of you? Yes. I'm I'm on LinkedIn, and I'm, and I think my my emails are, anyway, on the Internet. So, actually easy to reach. So I I have it written here, but I don't wanna misspell it. On LinkedIn, why don't you spell your, family name? It's e h r e n f r e u n d. K. That's what I had, but you never know.

I've I was I least likely to succeed if you had to consider spelling as my criteria for moving forward. Okay. And I'd love to connect to you. You can connect to me at [email protected]. You can connect with us on Twitter at at project moon hut. We're on LinkedIn and Facebook. We don't put a lot up there. A little bit on Instagram. Our real look is for individuals who wanna make a difference to connect with us, and then we find a home, and then we don't talk about it. We work.

So that said, I'm David Goldsmith, and thank you for listening. Hello, everybody. This is David Goldsmith, and welcome to the age of infinite. Throughout history, humans have made significant transformational changes, which in turn have led to the renaming of periods into ages. You've personally just experienced the information age and what a ride it's been. Now we consider that you may right now be living through another transitioning age into the age of infinite.

An age that is not defined by scarcity and abundance, but by redefined lifestyle consisting of infinite possibilities and infinite resources, which will be made through a new construct where the moon and earth, as we call it Mearth, will create a new ecosystem and a new economic system that will transition us into the infinite future, the ingredients for an amazing sci fi story that is coming to life in your lifetime.

The podcast is brought to you by the Project Moon Hut Foundation, where we look to establish a box with a roof and a door on the moon. A moon hut, we were named by NASA, through the accelerated development of an earth and space based ecosystem, then to use the innovations, the paradigm shifting thinking, and the endeavors to turn them back on earth to improve how we live on earth for all species. You can go to our website at project moon hot dot org.

In the top right hand corner, there are 2 videos. I always suggest video number 1 and number 3. Today, we're going to be exploring an amazing topic tying right into project MoonUp, the role of evolution and its potential for improving life on earth for all species. Wonder where that came from. With us today is Pascal Ehrenfrahnd.

She's the professor of Space Policy Institute at George Washington University, president of the International Space University, just taken that over very recently, a scientist for decades focusing on planetary science and life in our solar system. Now that said, because of many conversations, I wanna go over with you very quickly how the podcast works so you understand its construct. There, Pascal and I had a conversation. We invited a guest.

The guest learns about Project Moon Hut, a little bit about what we are, and then we end up having a pre call. We discuss the topic we wanna go into, but we don't go into the details. I don't know anything about what Pascal is gonna be talking about. Interviews go any from an hour and a half to upwards of 4 and a half, which was the longest. So Pascal has designed her own program, and it's a conversation that we're having so that we learn.

So that said, right in front of me right now, I have about 15 pieces of blank paper. I don't know her outline. I don't know where she's gonna take us. So let's get started. Pascal, I know you have an outline. Can you please share that with us? Yes. Thank you, David. I have a very rough, outline because I think, we are gonna have a conversation.

And, the outline is just related to my fascination about, science in general, but in particular also science about our planet, how life originated, how our solar system originated. K. So are you skipping the outline? So what's number 1? Incredible earth. Edible earth. Number 2. Origins. Origins. Number 3. Humans, a step in evolution. 4? What could our future be? Future be? Number 5? Humans, venturing into further into the solar system. Next. Responsibilities. Zero number 7. Not now.

Maybe there will be. There will be. That's great. So so let's start with number 1, incredible earth. What where are we going with this? Well, I have always been fascinated about, you know, understanding where do we come from. And for that, you really need to little bit to understand how our solar system was formed, how the earth was formed, and, what is actually our place in the universe.

And so we have an enormous number of galaxies, stars, even now, since, since, some time we know about extrasolar planetary systems. And we have found, I think, more than 5,000 exoplanets, identified. Obviously, there are many more. About 800 or more than 800 of them are multi multiple planetary system, like our solar system. And so there is much out there which we will still discover. However, when we look at our Earth, it's a really, really extraordinary planet.

It lies exactly in this habitable zone of our solar system, which means that we have, liquid water in in in the shape of oceans, which are very important part for life. We have an atmosphere. We have a magnetic field that protects us from dangerous radiation. We have a central star, the sun, which plays a really, really important role. We have stable orbits of the planets because we have this Jupiter like neighbor.

I saw Jupiter, a neighbor, which is very, very, stabilizing somehow our solar system, through to through its gravitational forces. And when we look at our planet, life is everywhere. Yeah? Life has also prevailed, everywhere on our planet. We find life forms, in the very, very cold and and and and dry Antarctica. We find it in in in deserts. Has been on, the surface of the earth and then the oceans since probably 3,800,000,000 years ago. And, it has been pretty robust.

And, so it it is this important question, how unique is our planet and, how unique are we? Because, compared to the age of the earth, which is, 4,500,000,000 years, humans have only been on the forefront of evolution for about between 150 or, and 200000 years when we look at Homo sapiens. I'm gonna ask you just I'm just gonna ask because as you went through the look at our earth, I was I was constantly saying to myself, okay. I hear this.

We have a unique environment that works for our construct, and we believe that life in the solar system would have to be like ours in order to be life. I I just do you ever ask yourself maybe this construct is just one construct, and therefore, we will go to a very cold, very dark, very isolated, very something, the polar opposite of everything you say, and find a different form of life. Do you ever think of that?

Well, of, of course, we are looking at, a different form of life, of weird life, but, we know also, quite a lot about the elemental composition of the universe. We, know, for instance, that carbon is a very, very, extraordinary or extraordinary element, and our life is based on carbon. And, carbon is ever we can find it everywhere in the universe. A lot of, organic molecules, which we find on on Earth, We can also find, in, the different environments in the universe.

So, obviously, we are thinking that there could be different forms of life, but it is will be also very, very difficult to detect it. So, It could be right here with us. Right? Well, I'm, I'm I'm I'm just really a how do they would say, a scientist, which is is, I I have imaginations, but I also look at, elemental composition at at at science facts. And, when you look at, our elements and in particular of carbon, how it can actually create complex molecules, three-dimensional molecules.

It is a little bit like with water. Water is also so really, really fascinating and robbery, a really, really important ingredient for life. Obviously, we are looking at other liquids, but when you look at a perfect combination, of of, making a robust chemistry and carbon based life, then, I think we we we, we we can't really look at this kind of signatures in our solar system or even beyond, which are carbon based. So this is something what I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm quite convinced of.

Obviously, we will never know, what all is out there. It's also the problem, how do you want to detect it? You can actually only detect life as we know it. It's one of those as you were speaking, I'm saying to myself, it is almost as if a a culture on earth feels that they're so unique because they have their culture. And yet right around the not far from them by a plane flight, there's another culture looking at the world completely differently. They don't see the same social structures.

They don't see the same interactions. They don't see the same process of of organization. And I I'm one of those individuals who sits back and says, it's an arrogance for the human species to believe that we can understand the complexity of something or the that we are a a singular type of structure animal with carbon based that or or our planet that there couldn't be something else out there. It's just a thought.

I I wondered if you had that same Well, obviously obviously, this is something what you can think of, but, when you actually look at the evolution, of, which happened on earth and how humans came to be, it is a very complex and long term process. So as I said, 4,600,000,000 years, probably the most primitive life forms have originated between 3.53.8000000000 years ago. But humans are only here, since approximately 200000 years.

So, this is really giving you a sense how complex it is actually to form something complex as humans, and that there has been an evolution going on with ups and downs and changes. And I think this is something which is quite fascinating to understand how evolutionary processes actually shape, life and, also shape, of course, our future.

And I think one of the most fascinating things is how, actually, life is interacting with all the, environmental changes because environment and life are, how do you say it, strongly strongly interacting and, helping each other. And, I think this is something which is very unique to a planet. And, obviously, on on on on on other planets or eventually moons, these things can can can work in a different way.

But here on Earth, the outcome is an intelligent species, so intelligent that we we might not even live that long. You know? And, I'm always making this this little paradox with my, with my my students and and and and, you know, we have a clock, you know, of the earth, 4,600,000,000 years. And when you look at that, humans are actually like a second on that clock. Yes. How long how long are we still there, you know, on this planet?

And will ever anybody know that we have been here in case we are extinct. So this is something which, I think is quite dramatic. And, in particular, when you understand this 4,000,000,000 years and more evolution, on the earth, creating a comp a complex species, like humans and a very intelligent species. And then you consider what's what's gonna be the future, and, how do we, how do we shape, you know, actually our future? How we what do we do with our planet?

And I think this is quite fascinating, and what I'm a little bit, really sad, and and I think that people are not really interested by this question.

And if they, would be, really educated in order to understand our origins, you know, starting at the origin of the universe and, starting, you know, at the origin of our solar system and how we came to be, which we still don't really know, people would get more feeling, you know, how, special, you know, this planet, very likely is, how how special and how complex it is that we have evolved, and would have more humility and would have more respect.

This is something what I'm, what often goes through my, through my head. I don't I don't part of my role in what we're doing is we we don't step on certain types of things. We're not a political group. We're not a religious group. We're not. We don't have categories. But as you were talking, you're asking someone to accept the origins and and belief structures that came out of science. And there's an argument as to how science is science, how much is science is real to certain people.

And there are 5,800,000,000 I just did a quick search, so Google knows everything, at least today. There are 5.8 people 1,000,000,000 people who are religiously affiliated, and many of these individuals have a this whole construct you just spoke about is in conflict with their belief systems. So I I know it's aspirational to say that if everybody was, educated on the origins, you'd have to some people would argue, Pascal, you're going in the wrong direction.

You really don't know where it came from. We do. Well, I must honestly say that there are a lot of, people which can which, can have both. They can understand science, and they do believe, you know, and they have religious belief, and they believe in God. So this is something, I think, which is not, not not mutually excuse exclusive. Of course, not in all religions.

But I think, if we really, want to survive, if we want, to shape this planet and our future, in a way, that, you know, we, can offer this planet actually to the future generations. I think we do need to understand, our environment and, what is important on our planet, and we have to understand, what is happening, in with our climate. And, because I think it is a responsibility for us in order to to survive and to look at our future generations.

So if you were to tell me if there were three things that I need to know about this planet, what would those three things be? I think it is, it is to understand, you know, the, evolution of species.

It is, to understand how our how fast in particular, how fast of our environment, is changing and, what dangers, that, means for humanity, and how can we actually really be responsible and try to reverse some of our decisions, to, to be able to survive survive, at least a little longer on this planet.

And I think this this is a responsibility everybody has to think, and you cannot go around science in the way, that, to understand, you know, some of those really, really important parameters of our environment. I I do believe, they're important. I think the challenges of the 3 items you listed are so overwhelming to the typical person, and let's take 7,800,000,000 people where, I don't know.

The number escapes me today, but let's say 5,200,000,000 people live under the $3 per day number on a as a statistical measure. That's not accurate. I'm just kind of throwing out a a round number.

The the challenge of living everyday life, the challenge of giving an education that will be able to differentiate and understand this, I don't think that's gonna happen in the time frame in which necessary to make the changes that you brought up just in number 2, that our environment is changing quickly. How do you how do you solve for that, the fact that this is not a priority? What do you mean? For whom it is not a priority?

For for for the average individuals going through every day who's trying to make a living, trying to eat Obviously. Obviously. But, I think in in in some way, we have to, to change the awareness, that, you know, there are really, really important problems, on earth that we we have to to offer, you know, and planet to our future generation and and and that we, have to understand.

And the roots, you know, to to be able, they are lying in science and, and and and and understanding our evolution and our environment. And, explaining and and and and and and making people aware of that, I think, is is crucial. Obviously, we will not be able to do that for everybody, but, we will have to walk into this direction, because we have at least to convince people, that, we have to change sometimes our behavior as we are doing it now.

For instance, looking at all the, the different political decisions, you know, in in in in in Europe, concerning energy. And, I I They they actually the decisions in the decisions in Europe are being forced upon by in many cases, and and there's an a quick motion to to make the changes because of a political or a conflict going on. But a lot of the most a lot of the motion wasn't happening because people were No. That's I would not say that.

Europe is, very far far far Well, I lived in I've lived in Luxembourg. I've lived in Europe, Asia, and I've lived in the United States. And while I was living in Luxembourg, I've gotta say people drove cars everywhere. The infrastructure wasn't designed for public transportation. The, amount of waste that went on was is is just as symbolic as other places. I've worked in about 50 countries around the world. When I was in Asia, in Hong Kong, we had an unbelievable transit system.

We had I mean, there's there's good and bad. I would say that while I was in while I've been in Europe and lived and worked, spent a lot of time in Copenhagen, I didn't see the same type of unbelievable change that maybe you can articulate that's happening.

No. But, it it is going slow, like, everywhere on the in in the world, but, we, we do have a green deal, in Europe, and we have, the the the will and, a lot of regulations in order to go in the future, to have a green digital transition in Europe. And I think we are quite quite far, with, with the future regulations and with the ambitions. And there are at least many, many countries which work together. And I think, obviously, this cannot only be Europe.

It has to be done, globally, because, it it, all that in order to meet climate change or to mitigate climate change and to, to stay, abreast with all the developments and for our and and and environmental changes, we will need, really to work together globally. This is clear. But I do think that, there are quite some ambitions, in in in Europe, which are which are which are very strong. Yeah. So get getting back because we could tackle this a little later when we talk about responsibilities.

What else about planet Earth that when you say incredible Earth? Well What's incredible to you? I think, it is a a really, really very special planet, as I said already. When, we look at many different of the exoplanets which have been identified, they, we we do not know know that all these conditions, you know, work together in order to make a habitable environment.

So, as I said before, we find life everywhere on planet Earth, but, obviously, this was not like this, at the at the very beginning. So to understand, you know, how how life actually originated on Earth, that is a very, very, difficult question.

There are a lot of different scientists from all the different fields, being astronomers, geologists, geneticists, and microbiologists, and handle of other, scientists, different types which are actually working together in order to understand, you know, where or where the first carbon molecules formed, what were the conditions on the early Earth that we actually we have quite a certainty that, between 3.53.8000000000 years ago, eventually, even a little bit earlier, we have the first primitive organisms, small microbes called prokaryotes, and they had to live without oxygen because at that time, there was no oxygen in the atmosphere.

And, it took a long, long way, and, we're not gonna go through all the steps of evolution because I'm also not an expert in that. But there have been continents, arising. There have been continents, which, started to assemble and breaking up again. And there have been glaciation events. There have been mass extinctions.

And this is is a very, very, I would say, difficult period, you know, for over over over changing of changing conditions and building up, you know, and moving from primitive life to more complex species, up to humans. And, this is quite a fascinating situation because, you, are so much tied with the environment, and you cannot imagine that this is actually happening on another planet in the same way. So that gives you, obviously, the the question, are we unique?

And, I would not say, put that because as you mentioned before, I wouldn't say that this is arrogant. Yeah? It's not arrogant. It's, it's just I think it's a little bit of humility when you understand how complex that process is and how through how many difficult situation, it has gone.

And we all know this mass extinctions, and we know the extinctions of the dinosaurs, and then we know about the explosion, the Cambrian explosion where, you know, so many species actually originated, which was only 50,000,000, 50, 1000000 years ago. So, this 4,500,000,000 evolution of a planet, I think, is something which is extremely interesting and, should all make us, you know, think about our future. And, let us make understand, you know, that we should cherish the environment where we are.

We haven't found another planet which is, that extraordinary, like, our Earth, and, which has, you know, this protection from radiation. Just just giving you example. When you look at Mars, you know, Mars does not have any more magnetic field. It is completely dry out. There is no liquid water on the surface. The radiation is hitting the surface, destroying everything, on on the surface and in the near subsurface.

So even if Mars had very similar conditions to the early earth, also 4,500,000,000 years ago, it had a completely different evolution. And we are now trying, to have space missions to Mars and trying to reconstruct what were there conditions 4,500,000,000 years ago or 3, 3,500,000,000 years ago, where life could have originated on Mars? But Mars completely had a different evolution, so did Venus.

And, it is quite interesting, you know, to see how, how we need and want to understand, you know, our planet, and its uniqueness, and that we are actually here on this planet, and we actually should really do. Have this humility have this humility and and and and and say and and, how do you say it? Take responsibility. I'm I'm fascinated in in not as much the content, but the fascination that you have with the fascination of the development.

Meaning, my background is organic chemistry, physics, calculus, which you do know. I biology major in in university as well as a psychology major, dual. I spent a lot of time looking biology of vertebrates, and I I even I I as the type of student, if a teacher asked you to do a project on, for example, the biology of vertebrates. I remember this professor said go out and look at vertebrates and look at motion. You have to do 2 research papers on it.

And I ended up and I I ended up doing one on snakes, and then I did another one on birds, and then I did another one on deer, and I did something else. And I remember the top of the the teacher wrote the top of the paper, something to the effect of when it sounds like bullshit, it reads like bullshit, it is bullshit. What he was saying is, David, you're trying to get an a in my class. You didn't realize I was just fascinated. I I just did what I did because I was fascinated.

And but I didn't have the fascination even with all of that background. I mean, years of bio biology, chemistry, physics, calculus classes, looking at the world and where it came. I never had this fascination that you appear to have. So my kind of my question is, where does that come from?

Well, I I I must honestly say that, that all, the people I work with and the people from our field of astrobiology and also origin of life, they have this kind of fascination to understand how the first cell, was created. I mean, this is if you are not fascinated, then I don't understand. Obviously, I'm I'm I'm a scientist at heart, but, don't you want to understand where you come from? Or is it just or, you know, okay. Now I have dinner, and I watch TV.

Yeah. I it's a little it's a little different than that. I had a I spoke at Technion. Someone in Israel set had me speak at multiple places, and you probably know Technion University. I spoke at their, at their facility. And I talked about some of the things in Project Moon Hunt, what we're working on, and where we're going with it. And this gentleman came up afterwards. He is in his sixties and early sixties, I think it was at the time.

And he said to me during your presentation, and it was a discussion presentation, he said to me, I started to think about the fact that all the work I've been doing, and he does work beyond our solar system. He does far reaches the solar system. He said all the work that I've been working on may never be used. It's just pure research. And he said, I think I have to make a change in my life to work on things for the here and now and the in the near future that can impact our life on this planet.

And he said, I've dedicated my life to doing work at this point that I realized may never be used. And so I don't have that same fascination, yet I and I'm not an history buff. Even though I've done the research, I've done the homework, I've done it, I am personally a person who wants to build, create, and solve for tomorrow. So I have a window. Project Moon Hut is 45 years.

It's not a long window in terms of evolutionary time, but Project Moon Hut is a 45 year plan and what we intend to do to make that happen. And that is fascinating to me, what we can do. Historically, I'm not the guy who sits and reads a lot of history books. I'm not a person who goes back. I I I have some of the data, but that's not my fascination. So that's why I was asking you, where is you have this fascination, and it sounds like it's an intrinsic. It's built into you.

It's one of those things that just turns you on because it's who you are as a person. Well, it's not only that who I'm a person, so I think there's a big community out there, which wants to understand, you know, how the solar system has been formed because it's more or less our cradle. And, it's how is the you you you just said you're an organic chemist. So it's about chemical raw material, which is necessary for the development of life.

So there was very little, there were a few a few minerals and and and even a little organic matter on the early earth. So how do these chemical reactions on the early earth, have occurred and created organic molecules in ocean in volcanic rate, ratios? And then you had in this first 700000000 years, you know, of of of of our earth, so for 4 point 5000000000 years or the earth, you had terrible things going on. It was it's called the haden, hell in Greek.

You had comets and asteroids, shooting in into the into the early earth. You had volcanic eruptions, so very strong geological activity. You had a changing atmosphere. So, honestly, temperature fluctuations, and it was exactly in that time where you find more or less you you build up the first cells. Isn't that fascinating? Well, I you know, I as you're saying that, I'm gonna tell you, I I heard a fascinating story, but it's the timeline is different.

Where you're fascinated there, I was given we're looking for things that have happened in the beyond Earth ecosystem that have has impacted Earth that are not always linear, meaning we know that water filtration and air filtration or water purification, that is that's came out of the Beyond Earth ecosystem. The cordless power tools out of the Beyond Earth ecosystem, Invisalign braces. There's a lot of things that came out of offshoots.

So one company that I was referred to was this company, and I don't think I've said it on podcast. I don't remember. As I referred to this company by the name of Helios, and they are working on creating hydrogen fuel for the moon so that rockets can be able to take off on the moon. And we're having this fascinating conversation. We're talking for about 45 minutes to an hour, and he says, you know, one one of the things we had to do is we had to do this experiment.

So we went out we couldn't afford a new kiln, a k I l n kiln. We had to go out and we had to buy a used kiln. And we set it up and we started the experiment. We needed to get it to 1200 degrees Celsius, and we expected this reaction to occur. And it didn't occur the way it was, possibly not the exact perfect condition in the kiln, and we found that we found ten times the amount of iron ore at in this reaction than we anticipated. I mean, a tremendous amount of iron ore.

And they they were fascinated by it, and then they worked on it. They've been able to get that iron ore development down to somewhere in the neighborhood of about 270 degrees c, so they dropped the energy usage. And they have now patented the process, and the term I gave them was distributed localized manufacturing of metal, which today is not done that way. It's done in localized places and just shipped all over the world, and it's about 6 to 7% of all carbon output.

6 so that's pretty high, and this whole experiment was an a mistake. So I said to I asked the guy because I wanted it on audio. I wanted it on video. Right? I said, I need to record this. I said, were you working on solving for the moon, or were you looking to solve something for earth? And he says, oh, yeah. For earth. Wait. I said, no. No. When you did this experiment, were you working on solving for the moon? And he said, no. It was an accident. And I said, that to me is exciting.

That experimentation and working on something towards another directive creates something else no different than a 1000000000 years ago or or a 500,000,000 or whatever number you wanna use. I get fascinated by that in the future and the development more so than I do going back 500,000,000 years or 4,500,000,000 years. That's a solution that solves something. We could create iron ore and localize and have it right outside the city, and then we could use the metals right there.

No shipping, no transport, cleaner, less energy, on and on. Well, you you you you said you you wanna look for the next, 45 years. What is possible? But I think it is, quite important to understand that it took 4,500,000,000 years to have the brain for it to do that. I I that I that I This is this is something which which I think you have to keep in mind. And will it ever happen again? You know? Or did that ever happen again? Somewhere else in the universe.

So, this is where where the humility, somehow comes from, because, as I said, you know, real intelligent beings are here since 200000 years. And, well, it it it, until we are able to do really, fantastic technological advances like we do today, that's only very, very recent. So, I think it's a little bit, I think it's important to understand where it comes from. And I I don't disagree. I think we need some of that. The challenge is our focus is a little bit different on it.

And I'm looking at our outline, so we've got the incredible Earth, and I think we've been talking about Origins. Abs absolutely. Is there anything else with origins that you think is absolutely fascinating that I might never have heard about that in your history, you'd say, wow. This was something when I understood this. It made a difference in the way I perceive the the the way we are and what we're doing. I think this is a region. You know?

We have new results all the time, you know, coming in. And even in the last weeks, you know, there were really fascinating results, like, for instance, that we find all the the nucleobases which are in our genetic material, we find them in meta rights. You know? So coming more or less from, you have genetic results, from from 3 days ago.

You know that, the RNA, some of our genetic material, and, small, chains of amino acids have been working together in order very likely, to build, the first genetic material in cells. So, you know, we are getting results all the time, and I think, this is important, and we have to we have to, understand, you know, where we come from. We have to understand our solar system.

We also have to understand how our universe was formed, but that would take another show, and then you should take a cosmologist. Yeah. So let's let's be done with the regions. K. So let's go on to human, human That's that's that's evolution. And we have started that already. Yep. So, and, obviously, we have changed this planet in a rapid time scale. Yeah? And, we have to understand what we are doing to this planet.

And, as I said, when we are looking at the clock of the evolution and of of our our our of the earth, we are a second. You know? Of our our lifetime is a second on this clock. So how long are we are we gonna make it? And, will the people ever know, that, humans were there before or, will we be extinct? Or what will come after us? I think this is something, this is a question I think, a lot of people are are discussing, researching, and it is not something, what we should take lightly.

What's what's your take? What is your honest take on the belief? Because there's a there's a doomsday event. There's the one thing that has to happen, and the world appears the way we know it. What's yours? Yeah. Well, I mean, I must honestly say I'm I'm I I really love to, read, those reports, though they are very often long, but they are luckily executive summaries of the IPCC of, order, where hundreds of scientists work together to understand, you know, what global warming will do to us.

And I'm I'm reading a lot of those, those documents, and they have a small headline in the news, and then they are gone. And I am really wondering, how will it be possible if we do not make people really aware of it, of it? And I think it's not only done with great. It is really something where we have, to educate, you know, our our population because everybody can see this kind of changes on, on our planet.

Everybody can see what is actually happening, and, that we are really exposed, to, extreme, you know, weather conditions, drought, heat waves, fires. I mean, everybody sees that in the TV. Floods, landslides. I was actually just in Ecuador, and, you know, and I had just to stop for a few hours because of the landslide.

Yeah. So all this this incredible loss of biodiversity, rising of sea levels, ocean acidification, I I do believe that we, humanity, has to understand much more about it, and it's about science, I'm sorry to say. And we have to create awareness, in order, you know, to, to have a global to have global solutions. So, have you have you ever there's a a paper, and I'm I know the person. I don't know what's your title, but there were 17 researchers got together. One of them was Daniel Blumstein.

They did something well, they looked at a a 150 conditions. They put it into the climate change category with a 150 conditions, and they wrote a paper that was something to the effect of it's far worse than scientists can even grasp. And What is it? Yep. They when you what they did is they looked at them collectively instead of separately. Yeah. So when you see this step in you human evolution, by understanding it, where does that take us?

It is depressing, but, you know, being a scientist and you also have this kind of of here's your motivation going forward, finding solutions. I have the same. So, I, obviously, I mean, we are not gonna stand on the cliff and just jump down because we cannot do anything anymore. We will always try to do something, and we always try to go further. And we always try to find new techno log techno technologies, which bring us further.

I think this is the mind of a scientist or of intellectual, people, but we have to create this awareness in in in in in in in people because, having this really, I would say, very, very difficult situations of of climate change impacting, in particular, always also the, the poorest regions, on the earth. We we we have to work together in order to, to really solve it and to to make the people aware of it.

So I I I do believe that, informing education and awareness, and bringing society into the game and, trying to work with society is the only chance that we, can actually, you know, how to say, reverse this very dramatic future. Before we jump before we jump into that, can you you you gave the title human step in evolution. Mhmm. So what do you let let's take a jump and let's call it 45 years. Let's call it a 100 years. What's the next evolution of humans in your mind?

Well, We're gonna grow a 3rd arm? Or Yeah. We are no. No. I I this doesn't go so so so in 45 years, in a 100 years Yeah. We're gonna have to have a little bit more. What what's our next step in evolution? From from from looking at the time scales of evolution, there will not be so much, except that, you know, it might be already, pretty difficult, to to live on Earth, and it might be similar to some of the very depressing movies about the future on Earth. It might be very similar like that.

I think we're, the younger generation will have, worse eyes, you know, looking at the little screen, for, for 10, 12 hours a day. But, we will not have this, this, we will have a destruction of our environment, but I don't think that, humans will evolve so, so much. But we will get sick due to the conditions and due to the environmental conditions and more We might have more pandemics. We might have, much much, stronger, diseases, cons concerning lung and and and and and stomach.

And, we, might not drive that well. And, so, it is something where we have, really in a in a in a very, very near near future, to find, some measures where we can, help the population. So what is also gonna happen is that what we know until 2050, 2060, we will have most of the people living in cities. You know? We have, I think we will have 75% or something like that, which, would be living in urban environments.

And, in particular, urban environments, that might be helpful for social interactions and, a lot of help, but, it might also create many many other problems and, endless cities. And, so, it is a coevolution of, you know, teaching people of, trying to improve situation with new technologies, and at the same time, trying to mitigate with really leaps in technology the strong impacts, which we know are gonna happen.

The the number is that the it's estimated, I believe, it's 7 in 10 people on planet Earth who live in a city. Let's comp let's make a little complexity to that. If we have a 15 centimeters, sea sea level rise by the year 2050, which is estimated approximately 6 inches, 40% of the global population lives within coastal regions. Oh, nice. We can we could take Shanghai, New York City. We can take London. We can go down.

There's a lot of cities near the water, and a 15 centimeters sea level rise can create typhoons and hurricanes due to warmer water, air circulation patterns. We could have tidal surges that could be anywhere from 3 meters to 7 to 10 meters higher, which would cause flooding across these regions and the cities would be challenged. So when we talk about the you did mention, let's say, pandemic, so people leaving cities because of pandemics.

Do you see that type of transition for the human species to do you actually see them go to cities, or do you see things like the sea level water rise causing these displacement conditions, or we take conflict such as Ukraine and the total annihilation of a city where we have, what is it, 4 to 10,000,000 people who have left a a country and moved to another country. What do you see happening in that evolution? I mean, I'm living in a coastal region, so, I think this will be very dramatic.

It has already started. Yeah. And, obviously, that will also drive, people much, much more in in in the in the cities away from the coastal region, but it will also mean that a lot of people are out of job. And, and, so it it is a very, very difficult, evolution. And, I think we are already at the topic that, in in not not not to get too depressing in in in saying, well, there's hardly anything what we do. I always do believe in science. No. No. We're we're we're gonna solve this.

I don't have a challenge with it. That's that we will. So, that's why we have a 45 year plan. We don't we wouldn't have a plan if we didn't think we'd solve it. Yeah. So, I think it is really, really, really important to, I mean, we we we have started of of course, there are a lot of measures, for the future, but everything is going very, very, very slow.

And when I am am what is always quite shocking for me as a scientist, you you read the news, and then you see a small things about the recent ICC report. You see a small, report, the of the United Nations, warning, you know, about the thing, and then you have 10 other things, and then you have soccer. I I do believe soccer is important as well, but it is not on the level it should be.

The information of, more or less, how we survive in the future, must be, something which is central to our communication. And it won't be. We know that. I I have talked to people around the world and shared some of the things we're working on. I've been to meetings where everybody is so excited about the 17 SDGs. I've been to and I I ask them simple basic questions. I don't know. I I I you know, there's enough bad things going on in the world. I don't wanna hear about that.

There's the propensity and belief structure for for certain parts of society is that other people should be paying attention to this, but they won't be. They won't. I mean, Pascal, they won't. It's not it's it's yeah. But the fact that they should look. I should eat bet I should eat better. I know I should, but I don't. I should exercise more, but I don't. I mean, we we all have these things. But the effects on humans, the impact will get stronger every year. Yeah?

Because as we said, the, the gas emissions, greenhouse gas emissions are stronger. The seabirds are are gonna rise. We have dwindling ice and forest cover, and we have, really, very strong changes, as we already said. And it it has an effect, you know, on a a fuel security, on energy security, on we have we will have, many, many more disasters. And at one at one stage, people will wake up, and I think partly they did already.

So it's not so, that we can ignore it much longer because it is getting stronger every every year. We see that already now. Yeah? I So, And we can then we can then toss in, and I'm not picking on people who believe who work the system, but we can top toss in blockchain and the unbelievable use of energy while at the same time people are flying around the world for conferences for blockchain. And, again, I'm not picking on them. I'm just using it as one construct.

They're flying around the world to say that they're saving the world from tyranny or from, economic challenges, and yet at this they're they're putting more c 02. They're adding to the heat conditions in the world. I I'd love to believe that people are waking up. I just don't see it. Well, I have to say that, when you are looking at the at, aviation, honestly, the the contribution, is by far by far by far, as we know, percentage smaller than than than regular traffic. Yeah?

Yes. I I'm just using that as an example. Yeah. I I I don't like this example because I think, the aviation industry is is really not, is has advanced a lot and and, allows us to, to to be globally connected. And, it is the car, more or less. It is the industries, you know, which have the the large largest in particular, also the energy industry, which have the largest emissions. So, we have we have to be a relative, to that. But, I think we need technological leaps.

And, when you when you look at technological leaps, you also need people, which are really, really smart. You need people which are educated in a different way, of of thinking interdisciplinary, thinking out of the box, going in the in in into the future. You need, people which, understand, you know, the global, involvement, and you need people which can actually solve technological challenges. And we have a terrible problem all over the world of, lack in the. No?

We have hardly any people, which want to, really, study engineering and natural science in particular. It's getting better in human medicine, in in IT, even in mathematics, getting better, but, natural science and engineering is still something. And that affects practically every sector, you know, in in in in in this region. It's it's I come from the space sector. It's very dramatic there as well, but, it affects many sectors.

And how can we actually do this technologically leaps, when we, don't have people educated? And then additionally to that, you need people which are really, how do you say it, totally open minded and can, cross boundaries and, understand. You need people which are sitting on one table coming from many different backgrounds in order to solve a problem.

In particular, the the challenges which you are addressing and which you want to address in the next 45 years, with your project, you need, how to say it, an a a very different crowd and very differently educated crowd in order to solve these technological leaps. Don't you think so? Oh, and so I'll bring it up now because we did, we touched on it before we started the program. We have this we have 6 mega challenges in the world.

Yes. And the 6 are climate change, mass extinction, ecosystems collapse, displacement, political, socioeconomic, religious, you can add the list. Then there's unrest, and the last one is explosive impact. And very quickly, every a lot of categorically, items are stuck into climate change, and that's not it's not always there. It's a connectivity of all of them.

So if climate change could be anything from sea level water rise to temperatures, we've seen in India this past week, we add on the surface between 50 to 60 degrees c. We're now seeing it in Pakistan, but it goes around the world. So it's the Middle East will go to 50 to 60 degrees c regularly, so will Northern Africa, so will Mexico, so, again, around all the way to Indonesia, Cambodia, Malaysia, through to Bangladesh.

If we were to take the second one, which is mass extinction, we're seeing that also. We're seeing a huge percent of the reptiles disappearing, a huge percent of the large mammals around the world are disappearing, and there's so much data on that. Ecosystem collapses. Right now, Australia has 19 ecosystems on the verge of collapsing. We can then go to displacement, which is part of climate change. I mean, all these people have to go someplace. Animals move someplace. They fight.

Can't just think about humans, but the entire ecosystem is all connected. And last year in terms of, political or challenges conflict, last year was the number one highest in human history. There's been about 17,000, 18,000 recorded conflicts. Last year, there was 56 on this planet, more than any other year in recorded history. There's about 6 to 8 wars that go on regularly, but this was 56 as a conflict.

And ecosystem and then explosive impact are things such as overfishing and la or deforestation, which have huge consequences across the entire 6. And the thing about the 6 mega challenges, which is different than the 17 SDGs, we don't start off with what we consider solutions. We start off with what we consider to be the challenges. And we also created a construct, we believe, compared to 17 SDGs. I'm saying it because you and I started a little bit.

The 17 SDGs construct is very challenging because growing up, my there was a show in the United States. One of these things is not like the other. Well, the first two are no poverty and no hunger. Never gonna happen in any world at any time. One of them is climate change. Well, climate change is not the same thing as no poverty and no hunger. And if you drop right next to it as life below water and life in air, but those are don't even match the others.

And then you could take things such as, what is it, clean water and sanitation, but those are 2 different. They're not the same. You don't solve them the same way. And then there's one on there about strong institutions. And what is a strong institution? I would argue that there are many strong institutions. The Chinese government, the Russian government, the American government, the way they're running things. There are strong institutions all over the world.

So there's actually 26 challenges on the 17 SDGs, and within them, they're not clearly defined. So very quickly so that they're in there. So, yes, we are trying to our belief structure is that if we do the things that we're doing today, we will not be the only solution to them, but we will address the 6 mega challenges. No. I think I think, these, challenges are really, important, and we see how how things actually evolve, how fast they evolve. We are now in my line, what is our future already?

I don't know if 4 or 5 or something like that. It's, what could be our future is number 4. Yeah. And, I I just come from from from Ecuador, and I have been in the cloud forest. You know? And, you know, this is one of the countries where the biodiversity is still the strongest and Yes. Amazing. And, what I have seen there, you know, it was my first time in Ecuador. It was really, really amazing from the butterflies to the to the birds and, in this very, very special environment.

So, that, you know, this is all collapsing, and, this is a very, very important topic. There are many scientific studies how we can hoard that. It is so sad, because this this planet is so special. It has developed so many, amazing things and, to lose all that. But you're doing there? What what what was your intention? What were you doing research there? No. I have we had a we had a conference, for strengthening the space ecosystem. So, for for the space sector in emerging countries.

We have a lot of, you know, countries which are well advanced in in in the space sector. And in particular, also in in South America, there are several countries which would like to take, I would say, advantage of space data, and for the benefit of society and, of course, also taking, into account climate change and and disaster management and many other, things which we have discussed.

And, we are actually helping, you know, the International Astronautical Federation is actually helping those countries, you know, to build up a space ecosystem with their industry, their governments, and, academia, and so on. And so, besides that, we had a a a short excursion into the cloud forest. As you know, there's a cloud forest and there's the Amazonas. They didn't make it in the Amazonas rainforest because it's a little bit far away.

But, it was wonderful to to, to see such a new country, you know, being on 3,000 meters high and, seeing a little bit a new world, you know, if you have never been to Ecuador. And and, it it makes you also think. I mean, just just discussing these kind of topics, you know, you are actually how we actually develop. It's a Quito, for instance, is a city of 2,700,000 people on nearly 3,000 meter high. You know?

And, a huge city of 40, or, you know, kilometers in in in in diameters, and you you can drive through for hours. And, so how do we actually build and and and and how do we construct and and, how do we, build, you know, ecosystems and, economic sectors in in, all over the world. And, so, when I look at your your your mega challenges, I think they are extremely important.

They are the that but every activity, you know, in this direction, be it from the United Nations, be it from, many, organizations is crucial. But, what will bring us really further, and this, you have already explained, is to have really, technology leaps. And and and and this is what we have to, we have to work with because we cannot give up, when we when we continue this discussion and discuss about the displacements, the the loss of biodiversity, the terrible conflicts all over.

It is, something like, you have to stay strong as a human being, in particular, when you are science and technology background and say, well, we have to do the best. And, That's not the way you play it. You can't just do the best. You have to do it. Yes. You have to do it. Yeah. You just have to do it. You can't do your best because I mean Best is I tried. I I tried to score the goal. I didn't do it. I did my best. I'm gonna go home now. No. No. You have to you have to score.

So Yeah. In in You have to be you have to think out of the box. So what is I think what I see is still, very, problematic is that, people are still working in boundaries and silos. You know? Okay. These are the experts for for climate change. These are the experts, you know, how to build a city of organization. Yeah. The experts, which are looking for, for for transport solutions.

And if you don't see put these people on one table and let them break their their brain and their, then, I think we will not go anywhere. We have to learn, you know, to go over boundaries, to do interdisciplinary research together and to, how to say, exploit, you know, the expertise from different sectors from from from from from, different economies. And I think this this is a big problem still now. We are still It's huge. Europe. Europe. It is it is silos. We are working in silos. You know?

It's such a huge challenge because and not because. I'm gonna it's a huge challenge because the people the individuals at the table are often more concerned about what they're working on than the group is working on. And it's a challenge because we've siloed our educational systems. The cross disciplinary person is not the one who gets the the bonuses, the raises, the growth. And so, yes, we have to. So That is the key for the future.

And, I mean, working in the International Space University, we had 3 really famous founders, 35 years ago, which were very young, but they really created this interdisciplinary environment. So we have team projects, in all during the during the classes where people from completely different background, be it medicine, be it journalism, be it engineering, and so on, sit on one table and solve a problem, like, for instance, space and oceans.

And, and they have and, of course, that doesn't that doesn't go easy. At the beginning, everybody has many, many different, ideas, and they they need the preparation for the, for our for the future because everything what we are doing is connected. The climate change and the biodiversity and, that we will have displacement, of of animals and humans, and, that there will be conflicts. All that is very strongly connected.

If we don't learn, you know, how to solve problems, interdisciplinary, we will never succeed. It's very difficult because we've run we've run down that road of solving individual focused challenges and the pullback for individuals to have multidisciplinary skill sets is is a very it's just not an easy there are timelines, and I I will often say to people, okay. Let's take where we are today, add 40 years onto your life. So add a number on.

And if you have children or nephews and aunts, friends, add 40 years onto their life. Now if you add 40 years on, might they have children? Probably, for many people. I said, and those have 40 years on now. So what year how many generations could you have in the next 40 years? Some people say 3 or 4, depending on their age. And then I asked them a simple question. What do you see happening in the next 40 years? And answer that question. 40 years, you mean. 40 years.

Just 40 years using the 6 mega challenges. You can use your the 17 SDGs if you'd like. I know you're affiliated with the United Nations. Whatever one you want. Just take 40 years because that's a window. It's an it's a reasonable window. What is it happening in 40 years on this planet?

But the problem is I don't wanna I don't wanna say what I see happening because, as I said, I'm quite pessimistic about, this possibility of of, going very slow, ignoring a lot of things, and waiting until everything breaks down. And this is not my nature. So I do believe, there must be and will be, some, particular companies, entrepreneurs, organizations which come together and, do something really special. Yeah?

And, like you talked about the mega mega challenges, I think this is the way how we can make a technological leap if we are just, trusting that the system will take care of it. I think it is, the system will be reactive to what is actually happening us, to disasters, to, to to war, to, how do you say it, displacement. As you as you said, they they will just be reactive, but we cannot be reactive. We have to be proactive, and we have to do that.

That's there's there's an analogy that I don't remember who taught it to me, but I remember hearing. The person said if you ever see a firefighter run, then something's really gone wrong. Because firefighters practice over and over and over and over again so that when they show up, they don't have to run. They know exactly what they have to do and the timing they do it. And they say if you watch firefighters, they know that condition. They know how it happens. They know how to move.

And if you see a bunch of firefighters running, something went wrong. The challenge is you have to be practicing when there is no fire, and most individuals wait till there's a fire. And right now, I think the way you're saying it and being pessimistic into some degree is that people are waiting for fires. And when there are fires, they're reacting.

Yet they're also not aware of the conditions that actually exist if you're not a globalist, if you're not paying attention to what's happening in the 6 mega challenges. And I often will say, there will be no gender equality if the 6 mega challenges collapse. There will be no clean water and sanitation.

There will be none of many of the things that you want on that 17 SDGs don't matter if in fact you have 60 degrees Celsius around the globe of the equator as a regular occurrence because those people will have to move. And the waters will be warmer and the fish will spawn differently and countries will the the large animals will be killed because of food or whatever necessary means.

So this whole thing about technological leap has to be done in the background, in in your knowledge base around the world because I'm a I'm an optimist. I believe in infinite possibilities and infinite, the the age of infinite. Do you see any I I I I'm totally on your side. I I I I think this is the only way. However, I do still think and, I'm I I think positive in a way that, you know, involving, society and, trying, to improve education and awareness, is also crucial.

We will Yeah. I a 100% agree. We will not get that far all over the planet, but it is a necessary thing because it can just support, you know, this background leaps, let's say, like that. Why? I I I a 100% agree. I am so much behind that. The challenge is go to countries, and I think it's 25 countries in the world, don't quote me, are democratic. About 42 fall into that categorization. The most majority of the world has educational systems that an education is designed to support governance.

And the things that you're asking for are often contrary to what we're talking about. Certainly. Yeah. I I still do believe, you know, I'm I'm, educated in a democratic system that, you know, this, this is this this will be crucial, at least their way it's possible.

And, so, we we, we are actually on the way of designing a system that, we we have to stay positive, and, we have to be proactive, and we have to, support people, organizations, find communities, entrepreneurs, which work together to, succeed in in some technological leaps. It's not so that governments are doing nothing. They are continuously, politically, I think, breakthroughs concerning climate change, but we all know it is going very slow, and it might be too late. So But you're so nice.

You might be too slow. It might be too late. Okay. Well, I I well, you know, I had a lot of political positions. Yeah. I know you are. I know you're taking a political position. I know. I know. I know that, it is difficult, you know, to find consensus. I have been in a lot of leadership, positions. So I do think that a lot of, governments, in particular also, in in Europe are really trying, to go in the right direction.

And, it's just it is it is a very difficult things, and you should not marginalize those, the impact of that. Not one should not marginalize the the, the the will, you know, to go into this direction. So I think that that that doesn't help either. But I I wouldn't marginalize it. I that's not the approach that I see. There the if you take a laser beam and point it at the moon and you move it a centimeter to the left and a centimeter to the right, you'll miss the moon.

The challenge with finding solutions to any challenge is that if the wrong questions are being asked or the wrong solutions developed, you end up not hitting the targets that are necessary. So it's not a matter of marginalization. I there's a pod there's a a presentation that I'd given in Luxembourg about digitalization. It's on YouTube, digitalization of Luxembourg with me.

And I talk about how Luxembourg's direction, as much as it's admirable, they were advised to work on, like, a 150 different areas. But when you went through it, Luxembourg doesn't have the capital, doesn't have the time, doesn't have the, the personnel to be able to solve it. No one had gone through and said you really should focus on these areas, and you will get there. And the the challenge that it's not a marginalization of what Europe is doing, because I'm not picking on Europe.

I'm I'm a globalist. So it's not the marginalization of what the world is doing.

It's that if you take a macroscopic view of the world, and I'm asking you to some degree, I don't see to meet the timelines that you're inferring but not saying because you're being political, to meet the destination of technological advances that you're not saying that we need faster than they are right now and the climate change and the things that we've discussed, I don't see, and maybe you have them, real initiatives that you could point to and say, that's it. Follow that one.

Well, it is a combination of many initiatives and, obviously Name them. Name name name 2, 3, 4. You know, the the the the green and digital transition in Europe, is is is certainly something which spans over many countries, and the countries are trying to do the best. And I think it is a a a really important way to go because what you what you did, is also to bring all the people together on one table and trying to work on the same subject.

Even if you have a technological leap, if you have nobody who wants to follow it, that is also not something which helps. Yeah? So governance is always an an important aspect in in in in in in in in this entire, system how to save the world. We are now saving the world. No. Don't we? So If Even get to the solar system, we're still in saving the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The world and yeah. The solar system probably will live with, will live quite still some some more 5000000000 years.

But, the earth, that's the that that's the question. And, so, I think that, that, you know, you you have to to to to combine all the efforts, and, look at the education there where you can in democratic countries and where we are able, you know, to, foster, you know, technology. You have to try also to find alliances and really, try to to get a consensus of also establishing new technologies because that's also a problem.

As as we have, we know how to do, autonomous driving ever since a long time, and it it would all work. But the the laws are just so slow, in order to make all the laws, and and and to make it actually really happen. So, you know, things are all tied together, and, I think, it is a combination of, having great, technological leaps, walking into the disciplinary, going in a, in a direction to find consensus, with with with different governments.

And, I think So you you you named the group you named the green and digital trans Transition. Transition. Transformation. Give me another give me another one that you feel is right on that path. Well, honestly, I mean, everything what, I I must honestly say that, I come from the space sector, and we we have, an incredibly important tool for solving many of those, issues which we have been discussed now, and these are our observations, and, of course, also satellite technology.

And, this is, is really crucial because we can have a global look when we are going out into space. And when we look with satellites back to Earth, we can go and and and see. We can look at with radar satellites, at illegal deforestation happening at night. You know? We can really, look in into the regions of, and and and help with disaster management. We can do predictions, you know, about, food security.

There are so many space data which will be which are crucial and, will be crucial, and it's a it's a it's a sector which has been really booming since It's absolutely been booming, and the and the data is great. Yeah. We do we do have the we do have the 6 mega challenges, and one of them is unrest. And I'm gonna I'm gonna say that I was ignorant as the next person. I didn't realize how much food security relied on Ukraine. Mhmm. I didn't realize that.

Many people, many people, while we in Europe, we we we we we know that, but I think many people did not know. But when you look at at at at, for instance, satellite data, many of those, things which we have been discussed being biodiversity, even looking at, you know, of course, of of of unrest and troops displacing, we can we can have a look from outside of the, you know, onto the onto our world and, get a lot of information how we can improve.

And we are probably, not not yet in in in in in in my point, what, 5, 6 humans venturing into the solar system or in space, but we are on a step towards that. This, the space economy is, I think, contributing about 0.6% of the global GDP now, but it has incredibly, advanced in the in the in in the last, 10 15 years. And it has been really commercial. I would actually it's an easier way for people to digest it, Pasquale, because I this is what I say to people.

Take your life and try to imagine that space technology and it's beyond earth technologies are how much of your day every day is reliant on it? Oh, yeah. And then this this call, you you looked at weather on your phone. You made a call to somebody. You you have air filtration, water filtration. You've got the the driving your GPS systems. You've got farming runs by the, GPS being able to deliver. The tires that we have have the the bumps in a road when you go, it was up your road.

That was developed by Beyond Earth Ecosystems. There's there are thousands of innovations we don't realize every day. Scratch resistant lenses, freeze dried food. When you use a power tool, the first power tools we use for beyond earth that are cordless. And now if you think of any any tool that is cordless, that came from beyond earth. And the and the list is endless. So it it's I think it's difficult for humans to get their mind around what is happening outside.

But if you looked at your everyday life Yeah. It is all day Yeah. What we do. We are completely dependent in our daily life on on satellite technology, and the problem is that people don't know it. They type on their iPhone, and I have no idea that there is actually a satellite involved. And, now when we look at the economic sectors, more and more, you know, of the space sector and the non space industries are connected.

I I even think part of that is I think part of that's even the nomenclature, the naming of it. It's not the space industry. And I said this we did this on with, Jan Werner the last time. I said Mhmm. One day, years ago, I said to somebody, space is not an industry. It's a geography. Mhmm. It's not an industry. There is no water industry. There is no land industry. There is no air industry. It's a geography.

So if someone was to say to you, I do life support, you could say to them, what type of life support? And they say, I do underwater life support. I do in cold temperature life support. I do in low Earth orbit life support. I could do in moon life support, which is different than life support that would work for Mars. I think part of it is the fact that we've structured our language, this language about the space industry, and it it's not inclusive.

So you can be a company on earth, and you could work in low earth orbit. And and and that could be an offering. You're not in the space industry. You're in the low earth orbit ecosystem. And I think part of it is just the the the language that we use for beyond earth. It just makes it complicated. I'm not in the space industry, so I'm therefore not in your ecosystem. And when I entered this ecosystem of space, it's very difficult to get into. People are not bringing you in with open arms.

You don't know that? Why? You don't know that? I I I I actually disagree because what we are calling, you know, many of our conferences and and venues, in in the recent years is always space for all. Yeah? And, we we are dependent. We are downloading terabyte, pentabyte of data, you know, from from satellites. And this data, they need to be, analyzed. They need, to be used, you know, for applications.

And we need a lot of people, which are not directly, you know, from the space sector or astronomers. Absolutely not. They're they're from they're they're data scientists. They are Computers. Yep. The computer analysts. Yes. Some companies which are finding an application with those kind of data. So and they might come from a completely different place. As we said before, they might come from agriculture.

They might come from, insurance or, or a completely different sectors, transportation and so on, medical, and we need, you know, to actually find all those people to be part, and working on on those data. And, and and and, I would say harnessing, you know, the benefits for society from those kind of data. And that's why, I think the space sector, as it has developed, has to be extremely inclusive.

And I'm saying that I'm saying by by partitioning it off into the space sector, we actually don't do it any service. I believe what everything you said is absolutely a 100% correct. What I'm saying is when you say are you in the space sector, people say, no. I'm not in the space sector. And I'm say to the I say to them, what do you do for a living? I'm a farmer.

Okay. So do you use do you have drivers who sit using GPS on huge farms, and all they do is they're they sit and they watch television or videos while the while the while the class 9 harvester is and and and it there's no driver. In class 9 harvester, it's all being run by satellite. The person goes for for 5 kilometers, 8 kilometers, doesn't even touch anything, is there to make sure it doesn't go off. The the the food harvesting, same thing. And they say, well, I'm not in this base industry.

I'm a farmer. No. You are. You're leveraging the ecosystem of Beyond Earth. Yeah. And that's my point. I think it's I think it's I think it's the way in which it's presented. It's our everyday it is evolving. I think it is evolving, and, it just also needs more information and more awareness.

And, I think it it it it will grow on everybody that we, understanding that we are, also, you know, with all these mega constellations and having, you know, Internet in remote locations, I think people will will take up to it and all the solutions which we provided for transport and and and for the Internet of things. I think I think people will, how do you say, start, you know, to to to be a part of the space sector and understand that, you know, there there there's importance.

It's a development, but They will they will leverage the technology that comes out of beyond Earth. But, I mean, there's one analogy which which which I just feel, because you said we need these technology leaps, and we need them fast. And you looked you talked about your 6 mega challenges. But when you look at the space sector, and I don't wanna go into real detail because I think you had other people on the on the show which are, even, more knowledgeable and, compared to me.

But this incredible development, fast development and entrepreneurial environment of the space sector changing. You know? That's huge. The space sector enormously into the commercial direction, whereas, you know, space agencies have been on on on on the helmet of of of any kind of, space venture for the, for for decades. And having this rapid change, having, I think, in the last 10 years, nearly 1700, you know, startups, in, funded by investment. You know?

Maybe not all of them will survive, but this, really, really I'm gonna guarantee you, and I'll make a bet on it. I don't bet. I do not. I'd I'd never gamble. I'll bet you they all weren't so bad. Yes. And I'm not I mean, we who would have invested in space before? Yeah? So now we have really a lot of venture capital, companies, which are actually really starting to get dedicated, you know, to the space sector and and and harnessing, you know, the the benefits for all kind of other sectors.

So I think the the this this was an ultra rapid evolution. And and I'm just the space technology analyst space tech 2021 says there are 10,000 private space tech companies and 5,000 leading investors. I mean, we we are still behind a little bit in Europe of, it's mostly concerning entrepreneurship. It's mostly the US and China. We have to say what what what concerns start ups, but I think it is booming all over the world.

And, it's going so fast that we with the governance aspects and the sustainability aspect. Up. Yeah. You are the aspects we have already a problem. So this is also something I think, which is important concerning the mega challenges. If you're going super fast, you know, you you, governance, sustainability, security, these are these are important factors which have to be, how do you say, factored in.

If it goes too far, then, you know, how many how many, companies we have now which wanna go on the moon, which don't know much about the moon except, like, trying to find a market. And you have to understand the moon before you go there. I'm sorry to say. Yeah. Let me explain how complicated it is. We have a tech transfer business we we're putting together. We've got, IP attorneys from all over. We have a Kirkland and Ellis is the 7th largest law firm in the world.

They have donated their services and time to us, And we have to spend hours on the phone going over at least to understand the US ITAR, the government regulations for the transfer of technology, or, EAR is another one. SIFS is another one. And we have to understand all of this because you can go to jail at least doing something in the United States, but there's a global compliance program for anything beyond Earth. All countries have these type of laws. What can be transferred?

Not all countries. I'm saying that improperly. Many countries have. Europe has. You cannot transfer to this person or to this way. You cannot be digital. We're finding out that if someone in Germany sends it to someone in the US who is a German citizen and I happen to be in the middle of it and I see something that was developed from or can be used for, I could go to jail for being on that, being a part of the receiving and seeing and sending the documents. It's complicated.

Yeah. Obviously, obviously, this, this this is still a big problem. However, you know, I think international cooperation, in particular in the space sector, is, I think, an important aspect and, has really made big strides, you know, just looking at the International Space Station and at a large scale, endeavors.

I don't think they would be possible, without international cooperation just because, you know, you you you live the benefits, you exploit the the the expertise, which is available worldwide, and and and and you you reduce costs. And you bring some sustainability to the international pro, programs, in particular for long term program. So I think it's it's it's it's a great things, but, obviously, it's it's, it's not easy. And, so So let's let's go back to the what is our future?

You we went in 2 we went in 3 divergent places. One of them was pessimistic. One of them was the beyond Earth ecosystem, and the other one was the technology driven. What do you see our future being when it comes to life on earth for all species? Yeah. Well, for me, it is certainly the technology driven one. I'm a scientist. I'm, an experimentalist also.

I do believe that, we have to find, you know, an advanced technologies, which will help to solve, you know, some of our problems in particular in energy and and and and and and and transportation. And I do believe that, you know, the space sector with its few, you know, from the outside of the earth can help us in particular in our global problems and in the main, problems we have cons concerning climate change and the disasters which we will have to master in the future.

And I say that now, without the negative thing, I think we we we need to be, what is it, conscious, you know, that, the future will not be easy, but we should not be too scared to say we are we cannot manage it. So this is a it's I I think it's, how do you say it? It's it's quite a balance to make. You know? You have to keep, how do you say you? You have to keep that optimistic and responsible in order to say it's not too late.

And but I think it is, it is something which is, which will be technology driven, as we all know, and that I think this is also your point of view. And Yeah. We're we're we actually in our teams, we have companies. We have a we brought in a radiation company that's done nothing beyond earth, and they do things such as, create the shielding used in airports for your luggage when you put it through the rack. I didn't know, and maybe you knew this.

Those little flaps, when you stick your luggage through, those little flaps are radiation shielding because there's radiation coming out of that box. So we have a radiation company. We have an energy company. We have different types of companies helping us, and we're bringing them together. They've never looked at beyond Earth. And bringing them together, we're looking at beyond earth in different ways because they've never experienced it. So they have to learn from scratch. What does this mean?

How does it impact? What is your gravity? What is 0 wetness or low gravity microgravity? What is, how much radiation is there on the surface of the moon, or what does a solar flare produce? And that's what we're doing. We're bringing together nondisjointed groups of people to do that. So, yes, I believe that it is the the technological evolution that we have to address.

And if if if if I can just say something, miss, in particular, also what we are doing, what is happening in the space sector, and and also what is happening in my field. You know? And and, you know, you cannot solve the the problem of the origin of life, with an astronomer or with a biologist. You need many scientists having a a rather different background in order to understand. What were the conditions on the early earth? What kind of organic molecules work together?

How is your, how can first microbes and in what environment can they survive? And so on and so on. And what where the geological history. So you need this this this group of people in order, and that works actually quite well in science, in particular in my field in astrobiology science, is an interdisciplinary science, which was actually really fostered by NASA. And, and and and and we are used. You know? I'm I have always been used to work, very interdisciplinary.

And in general, when you look at the space sector, I think this is also happening again as we discussed before. You know, looking at the connection between the space sector and other economies. So, I think this is a very good model in order to go into the in in into into the future and trying to, you know, to combine sectors and to let, let the the scientific and the, engineering community find, interdisciplinary, you know, technological, technical solutions.

I think that that is really something which is crucial. You you you in what you're saying is exactly not exactly. It's the version of what we're saying is we're at a point where reductionist approach to living, surviving on this planet will not work. We cannot we cannot reduce ourself out of this quickly enough. So we have to accelerate the innovations. We have to accelerate. Yeah. Otherwise, we won't make it. It's it's like a door closing.

And if we keep on doing what we're doing and we keep on having the same geopolitical challenges, we still have the the the biopsychological challenge on a global scale. We won't get there. So we have to accelerate. We have to put our foot on the gas on the technological advancements that we'll need to make it happen. And You have to remove boundaries. You have to remove boundaries and, complicated, governance which slows you down.

And and and through that, you need better stories that people can engage with. And the reason that I say space is not a it's not a industry, it's a geography, it's because what happens is the person says, yeah. I never thought about that like that. Oh, Dan, Dan from the American Institute of Astronautics and Aeronautics is going to do a podcast. He's coming up, I think, 2 months. And he loved that concept. But what it was is a paradigm shift for him because he said, you're right.

That's space is not an industry. It's geography, and it's more inclusive. So I think part of the challenge that the beyond Earth ecosystem has is the storyline. You cannot say yada yada yada yada yada. We will be on Mars. Yada yada yada. We will save planet Earth. You have to draw a parallel to the connection of what are you doing that will in fact do what you're saying as it translates to earth?

And I think that's part of the storyline that's missing, and it's a it's a challenging one that we've been working on for quite some time. So let's take this next one because I think this is a specialty of yours, humans venturing into the solar system. Yeah. Well, as I said before, we, the space industry has, made really a leap in the last decade. Even also space exploration is extremely dynamic. And, we have now really big space endeavors in the future.

We have a space station which will end, its lifetime in approximately 2030. It might even have a different timeline when we're looking at the unrest, which as you call it in your in your mega challenges.

And, so, we are looking at, how do you say, a new commercial OS orbit, probably having different, space stations, smaller space stations than, than the the current international space stations, which are mostly, you know, I would say, advanced by by by commercial actors, probably still with space agencies.

And we will create a cislunar economy because there is a lot of commercial actors in combination with space agencies which want to go forward to the moon to build habitats, to, make outposts, probably use, of course, investigate the the lunar surface and explore, do science and discoveries, but also to look for probably market cases and to in situ, reduce utilization, and then go from there onto Mars.

So there's, there are big plans, and, there are really, I would say, amazing possibilities, and, there are still a really important international component in that. So do you if you were to give me a timeline for what you just outlined, in real terms, and I'm gonna throw this out. I won't name names. You've known them. There have been promises by the year 2000. There have been promises by the year 2010. There have been promises by the year 2020.

There are promises by the year 2000 x. What is your what is your and you know the names. You know these players. I I Don't worry. I'm shut to use the space sector. Okay. Shut to use So so now the reason I'm saying it is so that I don't have to say it because these are it's just what it is. So my question is, what what is your or midterm, long term projection? 5 years, 10 years, whatever you wanna use. This is I'm not giving you the words that you have to use.

What would be your projection of humans venturing into the solar system? I I think, the first part is, that we have a transformation now in lower orbit, that we will move, we will not leave lower orbit. Nobody wants that. So even when the, International Space Station will come to an end of its lifetime, we will have smaller station. We will have, free flyers. We will have, you know, many different flyer, by the way. Sorry. Sorry.

We will have some kind of, planes which will do experiments and come back. Okay. So not Like like, they, yeah, they they go, Yossi Amin at a space pharma at Israel. They are out of they're outside of Europe. They fly up. They do the experimentation high enough in low Earth orbit, and then it comes down. Yes. So you will have, rides and, like, vessels, you know, going into space are coming back.

Well, just doing experiments, you will have probably permanent space stations, smaller ones, very likely, because, as you know, the International Space Station is extremely expensive to maintain. And, it will be much more versatile, this, LEO system, because, they, commercial actors, they need a market case. So they will work with society at large, education, maybe space tourism, obviously, also scientific experiments, engineering experiments.

So there will be, I I would say, many stakeholders which will be involved, and that's also so nice on the space sector that we have really all the space sector, the stakeholders working together right now. So then, you certainly know about the Artemis program, which, should start very soon, with the 1st crew flight and, Artemis 1. And, of course, the the projections of, when, humans will be on the moon, again, are currently 2025. If that's gonna happen, we don't know.

But, it it it it, I think it will happen in this decade. And, those kind of, I would say, commercial space stations, smaller space stations where many different companies work on. They are expected at the beginning of, the 20 thirties. We know that the Chinese, space station is just built now and will be ready in a year, and will hold about 10 to 15 years. We'll we'll be in orbit. So it's it's it's quite active what's going on. Going to Mars, that will take a a time.

And did here, I have to put my scientific hat because astronaut health is a very, very important topic. We have apart from weightlessness, we have the radiation aspect, as you mentioned before. We have isolation, nutrition, psychological stress, emergency situations, muscle breakdown, bone loss, cardiovascular problems, a weakened immune system.

I do believe that the most important, problem is still the radiation risk because, we know that we have this kind of radiation dose, which astronauts are currently exposed to and allowed to, which is a lifetime dose of 1 Seaford. And, after that, you might have an increased cancer risk, and we would have to understand the material science better and protect, people going to Mars.

So, honestly, I think, bringing humans to Mars is a question how fast can we advance science to understand astronaut health, and, also the, you know, how to build habitats, doing 3 d printing, building habitats, which in particular protect humans, when they are going to Mars, and how long can they stay there?

Because right now, when you look at the the numbers, from the recent Mars missions, you get 60% of your radiation dose on a on a on a travel to Mars and back, of your, of your your, allowance of of of of your lifetime. And so this means there's not much what you can do on Mars. And so we have to advance material science and and all those things. I think that will take time. I don't wanna give a timeline, but it is very great that space entrepreneurs, you know, say, oh, yeah.

We are making colonies of Mars and so on, but the science is done by the scientists, in academia, in research organizations. And, how fast they advance will determine when we will have humans on Mars. That that that is my that is my take, and I I wouldn't give a timeline, but it will be longer. Wait. So so can you take that? Because if you remember, I talked about 40 years not long ago. And I asked about the 6 mega challenges, and we we looked at what could happen over the next 40 years.

I mean, there could be a lot of things happening over the next 40 years. Don't know. I'm not gonna make the prediction that on this year, but if we have a 15 centimeters sea level water rise, and I hate to say it. You can't look out your you even though you're on the coast, you can't walk outside and see 6 15 centimeters, 6 inch. You can't see it.

Yeah. So we don't know what the consequences of increased storms, increased tidal surges, a warmer oceans, movement of of lobsters, more north, migration of animals, more unrest because of climate around the world. We take that trajectory. We take what you just outlined, which is in my in the way I think I kinda did the math here, we're talking into 20 thirties, to 2040. Where is that moon. Where is that yada yada yada yeah. To the moon.

Where is that, which I love, yada yada yada yada, and then we'll solve for Earth. Where does beyond Earth cause enough of the changes? Because we're talking about improving life on earth for all species. Where does this endeavor do enough of the changes to influence and make the, life on earth better for all species? It it it will help in the development of technologies, that's for sure because everything what we, we are more or less preparing, medicine, you name it.

There are many, many, fields which will be advanced, you know, by, you know, venturing into space. The entire, how do you say, cislunar economy, but also, you know, which is connected to the LoRa's orbit, will, I think, advance, you know, our satellite system, because it will not be anymore the the the geostationary orbit and the low earth orbit. There will be a combination of orbits. We will learn, you know, how to advance, you know, in order to have a look, at the earth.

So I do think that, and bring, humanity away from that planet. This this is not, not what's gonna happen, but I do believe that the few and the awareness of, our planet, us, will be strongly improved, with, space ventures and a lot of the technologies, which will be, really useful. And and not, I just say, an expert, but I do also think that there might be solutions for energy from space as I hear my my my expert colleagues, discuss.

And, when the space sector develops as fast, as as as now, I do believe that we will have more solutions, you know, for, for benefits for society on on earth, with the help of satellite technology, which is connected because, you know, we will connect the lunar orbit to the cislunar orbit.

And, obviously, we are venturing into space and also with humans, but, I think the important step, you know, for the mega challenges on earth is looking back on earth, advancing the sorry, advancing technologies, and, and bringing awareness, to society. The I'm gonna toss something in for you to be thinking about.

Project Moon Hut and our work, we do we do believe that the lever, the the possibilities of beyond Earth and the the thinking about beyond earth, not even doing, but the thinking about it will change the way we live on earth. Yes. But we're if you were to really look at data, let's say, and we'll use this number 10,000 companies, because that's the number today is 10,000, 2,021. So let's say there's 10,000.

I might argue, and you probably could venture a guess here, that out of the 10,000, only 500 will ever have anything that goes to beyond earth. Because most ventures don't fail in normal conditions. It's not just beyond earth. It's just the math of of running a business. The it's the it's the end it's the innovations that will come out of those companies that were working on something like I brought as I brought up Helios earlier, that they will work on something and say, oh my god.

I solve for something else. And those are the innovations because when you think about beyond Earth, there's there's a there's a shift, and I'm gonna get do this with you very quickly. I I will often say to people of right now, look outside your home wherever you are, and you're gonna build a 10 story building. You already you think about how it's how large it's gonna be, the color it's gonna be, how it's gonna be built. In a matter of a second, you made a thousand assumptions.

You made the assumption there'll be gravity, there'll be air, there'll be humans, they'd have, robots, they'd have tools, there'd be supplies, there'd be rivets, there'd be acetylene, there'd be glass. You made that there'll be a meeting. All of these things were invented over time. But the minute I say that you do the same thing on the moon, the average person says, I don't even know where to start. And that is a good place for an individual to develop new solutions.

It's that paradigm shifting. How would we keep cool in plus 100 c temperature? How would we keep warm in minus 150 plus c temperature? And it how do we how about oxygen? How how do we take care of our waste? How is air filtration or water filtration going to work? And I think that that is where in the technological advances you mentioned, I think that's where the that's where the real acceleration is gonna happen.

We have to say that, we are doing the partly already on the International Space Station. International Space Station has now 20 years of, scientific, discoveries, and, I think about 3,000 experiments, which have been done by scientists in 100 countries. So we have learned a lot about extremes, and we have been growing, you know, plants and and and and and did food experiments and medical experiments and material science experiments, which you can only do in microgravity.

So I think this is something which we have already contributed. It's not so, how to say, well known, but there are a lot of documents which you can read. So we have definitely started to do so. And, that has inspired a lot of scientists all over the world. And, actually, China is now finishing its space station. It's looking for partners, you know, for doing science and and engineering.

So, I think that has already happened, but, obviously, many of those companies, they will also work with space data. Yeah? And they can use it for so many, many different things, and it is up to their imagination what kind of market they find.

And, so, looking at at data, you know, which are for benefit of Earth or looking in the future, living off the land and developing new technologies, both of them will really have, I I think, a very important impact, you know, on on society, on Earth, and on our technological advancement. I'm I'm pretty sure, and I totally agree with you. The, last one we we tossed in at the end, it was responsibilities.

Yeah. And I know you've mentioned a few things that we've gotta know the history, but let's take the history out because we've discussed that. What's the responsibility then for the future? I'm changing your outline. What is the responsibility for the future?

Well, I I come back to my origins, I'm sorry, and to the incredible us because, I do think that the feeling of responsibility, you know, for, your life, this planet, the future generations comes from understanding better, you know, where do we come from and how unique we are, and, what is our space environment? What is our environment? Yeah? It's not only, you know, how do you say, our, our daily routines. It is, you know, of of looking beyond.

And, I think, space is giving us really an opportunity to look beyond, a little bit outside and opening, you know, I would say, our vision. And, but with this comes also responsibility because opening our vision and understanding in what quite difficult situation we are, in, in what kind of unique situation we are, that we actually brought ourself in this situation and in this environment.

I think this this, consciousness, I think, helps a little bit in having an, how to say, a strong influence in moving in the in a good direction. So this is one thing. Our responsibilities are for our future generations. This is clear. This is how society is built. And, we have to, leave the planet to our, our children and grandchildren, and we have to do the best as we can and working internationally together. And that sounds, of course, very, blah blah blah, but, there is no other way.

The the fact that you think that we will have, how do you say, the the avengers working on the 6 mega challenges. You know? The avengers have to be connected to society and, and, and and to raise awareness so that we are at least partly the people which we can reach, try to go in the same direction. I think this is responsibility. Like, we have, for instance, enormous responsibility in space.

As you know, we have thousands of satellites, which are launched, in in in the recent and in the forthcoming years. And we have to understand, that we have now it's like we have a traffic management on Earth. We have to now, space traffic management. We have to understand, you know, in what orbits, the satellites are, that they are not colliding, that, they are tracked, that we, we keep each other safe. And, and we have to learn a lot of new technologies, and we have to have international rules.

And, this is something what we have now to develop in space is in extreme speed. Yeah? There is no conference which is not, impacted, you know, by panels and and so on about this topic, about governance, sustainability, and space security. And, I think the same, really has to happen, much, much stronger on earth, and in particular, when we introduce new technological advances, which I hope and I'm dreaming of reaching.

It's a there are a lot of challenges across the whole list that you you just tossed out, and it's it's not going to be an easy road. No. It is not gonna be an easy road, but, we are not here to go an easy road. Oh, I I and it's it's interesting when I these podcasts are for me to learn. When I when I break it all down, it's we don't we don't make any money off for selling. Our podcasts don't generate money. We're not looking for that.

We're I'm looking to learn from people I think could challenge me. That's one reason people are on, and I'm looking to help or we're looking to help. Project Luna is looking to help people see the world in a different way.

And the expectation is is that some of these things that you brought up, the international challenges and cooperation, the the, technological advances that need to happen, the the comments that you made about Mars, all of those help to solidify, desolidify, transform, redefine the future of society. And I'm an optimist in this one way. I'm pragmatic in one.

I need to know what's going on, but I'm an optimist in believing that the work that we're doing and the work that other people are doing will make a difference on a global scale. And if you're and we're solving for global. We're not solving for a region. We're not solving for a country. We have people all over the world helping us. And our entire endeavor is about bringing bringing international collaboration together. So you you hit on many of those points.

Is there any last words that you'd like to add? No. I think I wanna thank you. It was, you know, such a conversation, in particular when it is not scripted, makes you think. And I'm sure I'm gonna sing the whole night, first of all, because I have jet lag, from, having been too long in in in South America.

But, it is, I I think, this is you know, as I am coming back to the first, words of this post podcast that it took, you know, 4,500,000,000 years, you know, to develop an intelligent species like us. And we have to use our brain, you know, in order to survive, to develop, to evolve, and, and probably right now, to save the planet and, to save peace and, look at the mega challenges.

And and I I wanna thank you just because it it it it it gives people like me, which are really, really enthusiastic about science and technology development, also some kind of food of of of thinking further and learning more. I think I I love to learn, and I hope that other people, do that too because, it's fantastic, you know, to be on this planet. There's every day, there's there's something new to learn about.

Like, I was in Ecuador, and so all those species, you know, in in the in the forest, we there's so much to learn on this planet, and we have to stay positive. And, I would say, serene in heart that we are that we will overcome challenges. If we are falling into a hole of pessimism, we we cannot function.

And I think, Yula, with your podcast and also with your ideas and so on, you you move into this direction, and I think it's important that that that people learn also to move into this direction. You should, I'm gonna toss this out. It's not something you have to do, but the International Space University, I don't know how many of them even know that we have a podcast. We are as you know, we're very different. And I from the first moment I met you, we had a great conversation last time.

I appreciate the conversation this time. We're challenging the the entire ecosystem in a way that's different. And the word there's there's 3 words in the English language that are very common. One of them is, problem, the other one is challenge, and the other one is opportunity. The word problem when you think about it, biologically, the minute you hear it, you go, someone someone comes to you, a friend. I got a problem. And we substitute or I've substituted.

It's a there's a book that I wrote, and Inclusive in there is this concept that a challenge mentally puts you in a position of solving. If I said to you, I have a challenge, you say, oh, what do what do you need to solve? If I say you have a problem, I don't know if I have time to help you with that. If I say opportunity, it kind of gets a little oversold. Opportunities could be to make money, to be involved in stuff. So we're challenged, and that's why it's the 6 mega challenges.

We need to solve those challenges. And so our project, we have people all over the world, as I mentioned. We're working on things in a very counterintuitive way. Everything from platforms to tech transfer to, immersive technologies, 3 d, 4 d, digital, haptic technologies, all of those. We're working very quietly. We're not public.

We don't wanna put we don't put a lot out there, and we're working very hard to be able to create this new future that we think is not we don't if you notice, it doesn't say to make, that there's a word. We don't say we're going to make life we improve life on earth for all species. We can't say it'll be better because we don't know what better is. It's relative. It's that we will have a place that we can live and thrive into the future. So we actually see in our narrative, and I'm using we.

There's a lot of me in here, but we see the next 25 years not being as nice and as comfortable. We have a lot of challenge to overcome. But in the next 15 to 20 years, we'll start to see a retransformation because 3,200,000,000 people will die, unfortunately, because or normally because of their normal life expectancy. And this generation in in 40 years, they're the people who are 20 years old today will be us, and they will have lived a life different than we will have lived.

And that's why we use this. That's we have a 45 year plan. It fits into an evolution of a new and different way in which we live on this planet and all positive. It's just gonna be different. So I wanna thank you, Pasquale, for taking the time today. I really do. I appreciate it very much. I do want you to stay on after we close off because then we could talk afterwards, but I wanna thank you for taking the time, today.

I wanna thank anybody who's listened in today to hear, I appreciate we appreciate that you've take the time to learn something new that will make a difference in your life and the lives of others. Again, Project Moon Hut Foundation, where we're looking to establish a box with a roof and a door on the moon.

Not about settlement and colonization, a box with a roof and a door on the moon, a home, a moon hop through the accelerated development of an Earth and space based ecosystem, then to take the innovations, the paradigm shifting thinking, and the endeavor, and turn it back on earth to improve how we live on earth for all species. Again, you can go to the website, project moonlight.org. We're working on a new one. But on the top right hand corner, there are 2 video 3 videos. You can watch them all.

2 of them, 13 is what I typically recommend. And, Pasquale, is there one single best way for individuals to get a hold of you? Yes. I'm I'm on LinkedIn, and I'm, and I think my my emails are, anyway, on the Internet. So, actually easy to reach. So I I have it written here, but I don't wanna misspell it. On LinkedIn, why don't you spell your, family name? It's e h r e n f r e u n d. K. That's what I had, but you never know.

I've I was I least likely to succeed if you had to consider spelling as my criteria for moving forward. Okay. And I'd love to connect to you. You can connect to me at [email protected]. You can connect with us on Twitter at at project moon hut. We're on LinkedIn and Facebook. We don't put a lot up there. A little bit on Instagram. Our real look is for individuals who wanna make a difference to connect with us, and then we find a home, and then we don't talk about it. We work.

So that said, I'm David Goldsmith, and thank you for listening.