Space is Just Another Place to Do Business: It's Not a Unique Frontier w/ Jeffrey Manber #15

Hello, everybody. This is David Goldsmith, and welcome to the Age of Infinite, a Project Moon Hut podcast series where we're working to create sustainable life on the moon, not self sustainable life, through the accelerated development of an Earth and space based ecosystem to change how we live for all species on earth. Kind of counterintuitive. We're not gonna go into that today because we have an amazing guest on the line. We have Jeffrey Manber. How are you, Jeffrey? I'm doing well, David.

Thanks for having me. Jeffrey is the CEO of Nanoracks, and the topic we're going to be talking about today is space, another place to do business. It's not a unique frontier. A short story about Jeffrey. Jeffrey was at a conference for the National Space Society in, in California, and he was talking to somebody else that's working with me on another project. And through their dialogue, they found out that their 2 moms went to the same, they grew up in the same town.

Well, as they're talking, my mom grew up in the same town also. So the connection became this little tiny place, which is very small on the map if you looked it up, called Ellenville, New York. Now, Jeffrey, has been involved in the space industry. He's highly respected everywhere. You you talk to anybody. And that, partially, that's because, partially for probably, because of this, he's been involved in working with the International Space Station in terms of, moving payloads up to space.

He's done, I think, over 700. He's worked with satellite deployments, all sorts of things, countries all over the world. He's, he's well versed in this topic. And so, Jeffrey, let's start. You do have a few bullet points we're going to cover today. With with great trepidation, I do have some bullet points, David. I I've never been asked to work before, a podcast or an interview, so I I, I do have some. Are you ready? Okay. So so what are they? Let's let's get them going. Here it goes.

I feel like I'm on some, you know, behind which door is the washing machine. So, the first one is it's been 50 years since, humanity landed on the moon. Why haven't we been back? Good. The second is, what's the right role for space agencies going forward? K. The third is, is Elon Musk the reason for the excitement in space today? 4th is k. My biggest fear about, space exploration and utilization. Yeah. I I think I have, 6. The 5th is, the best moment in my career. Oh, cool.

And, last for now is, are we in a venture capital bubble, with the the space exploration, and is that good or bad? Okay. These are really cool topics. I'm excited. So let's start with our first one. It's been 50 years since humanity landed on the moon, and it is a big question. Why? Why? Why have we not been back? Yeah. I mean, the the puzzling there's so many ways to tackle that question.

I mean, extraordinary probably one of the most extraordinary observations in the last 100, 150 years was made by Moore and Moore's law that technology, you know, keeps doubling and doubling. What an extraordinary, observation to have been true for so long. And and it Moore's law is is inherently American. And the reason why it's inherently American is it assumes certain things that we in America take for granted. It assumes that there are markets that are behaving commercially.

It assumes that the government has the the normal proper role of emerging markets, which is to support and to guide, but not to overregulate, and not to compete against. And we'll talk about that more when we get to see. So I I've gotta ask this question. I'm gonna I right in the beginning is, did you come up with this, or did you hear this, or did you read this? Because I've never heard this. I It's fascinating. I'm from Ellenville, David. I'm a bright boy.

I mean so, no, that I get these are all I mean, I've spent a little time about 3 decades thinking about this. Okay? So so It's it's absolutely amazing. It's it's my mind is racing. Yeah. I love it. So so, I mean, so so in that context, one of the biggest prop now I'm getting off a little bit the first point as to why it's taken so long for us to, return to the moon.

But one of the biggest challenges in my career, which has been, almost 30 years in in in com what's now called commercial spaces, understanding that until recently, that which we do, space exploration, has been behaved, has been operated completely differently from anything else we do in America. It's been, in a sense, un American. So we Moore's Law, until very, very recently, has not applied to space technology. It has not applied to space programs. It has not applied to launch vehicles.

It has not applied to space stations. We launched the the space program because of a politician, John f Kennedy. And he did an extraordinary disservice, in my opinion, by creating a government organization that would run an activity. And in so doing, he made this a political program. So so, I mean, we can spend, you know, whole evening talking about this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Whatever you I mean Yeah. No. No. I've got it. I've got I've got I understand the concept, and it's fantastic.

So so were you're saying that because it was un American or because it was set up this way that the populace did not get engaged in the same way, and we didn't have the Moore's law. We didn't have the markets. We didn't have all of those extras that made the market move. Correct. And it's the extraordinary thing about America. Okay? It's the fundamental speed. It's it can be destructive. It can be, have, have impact negative impacts on certain parts of society.

But the extraordinary the extraordinary, characteristic of American markets is we move forward, and we have not been able to do that until now in space exploration. So the politicians funded 1 program. Then they funded another program, Skylab. We'll talk about that. Then they funded a 3rd program, Space Shuttle. Okay? I I I don't know if I'm in the mood to even talk about that, but, you know, they funded the space shuttle. Have to.

And at and and at that time, David, the United States of America was single point dependent on getting to space. That's as if saying, the United States of America was single point dependent on getting on the Internet or was based on one car or one plane manufacturer.

I mean, what a disgrace to the way we, as a country, do things to have a single point dependency on taking humans and cargo into space And so the result was as go the politicians went the program And and and in many ways, the extraordinary nature of the, Apollo program, it was a, you know, a product of the Cold War. It was an instrument against the Soviet Union. It served its purpose. We got to the moon first.

We regained our pride if I don't know if it was lost incorrectly, after the so called Scott Sputnik surprise. I don't know if, you know, if we it should have felt we lost something, but, we felt we did feel that. We regained our pride. We put into place much of the infrastructure that, American industry has was able to, take advantage of and capitalize in the late sixties early seventies. And, we did far more than tango, than than not tango. What what was the juice called? The the tang.

Oh, tang. Tang. Tang. Tang. Yeah. I was ready to dance. Sang. And, and and and and That's a structure than tango. I'm thinking I've lost you on this one. Yeah. So so I I think that the the I mean, it did have benefits. I'm saying it had it had political benefits, the Apollo program. It did have industrial benefits.

But and so to summarize and sort of finish this this point is that if you're an outsider and you're wondering why we could get to the moon with slide rules literally and primitive technology, and it's been, more than half a century and the clock is ticking, it's because we put we did not put our best foot forward as we do in this country.

We made it a political program, and we should keep that in mind tonight and in the future, over the next couple of years as we talk about the extraordinary progress being made made now, it's because it's becoming more, when you say it's becoming a commercial program, you're really saying it's becoming normal, a normal place to do business.

Yeah. That's, I've heard all sorts of, reasons as you probably could guess as to why we've not been to space, than to to back up to the moon and as we haven't done what we expected. And this is a this connects many of those dots that I've heard. So it's a very interesting, angle, and I and I love it. I love it. I think it's got a lot of tracks. Yeah. So Yeah. Thank you. That's that's great. Okay. So the I guess the next one is the the right role for space agencies.

I guess that's where we're going to. Yeah. And, as as you could imagine, maybe from the first discussion, I I, you know, I I have a love hate relationship with NASA. And, and, today, NASA is very important to me and is a good partner at at Nanoracks, and we can talk about that. But, basically, I have born I I have held a grudge my entire career that we have a space agency. And and why do we have a space agency? We don't have an Internet agency. We don't have a car agency.

We don't have a bioengineering agency, all fundamentally important, to this country. So why do we have a space agency? Well, again, we go back to the the the first point that it was created by John f Kennedy, and he was a politician. And he created, took a a group of government officials, and he pulled them together. And he said, verily, I will give you money, and Lyndon Johnson made it happen. And we had a space agency.

And, you know, I I'm so frustrated because just as we're moving forward in this extraordinary time of the commercialization of our our space, exploration and utilization, so many other countries proudly are creating Space agencies and and then you know now we have the uk space agency. Why does the uk have a space agency? We have the UAE space. Why does the UAE have a space? Australia's space agency, Mexico's space agency. And I'll tell you a story.

You didn't mention, but, some of the folks listening to this may know that, I'm the only american to I believe the only american to ever work for the russian space program the manned russian space program And I worked in the bank directly for them. Yep. Yep. I worked for in there. I worked for in there. Yeah the lodge, organization that did sputnik and did, gagarin and Space stations in the 90s and we can talk about that. I helped privatize.

And there again I helped I carried over the first contract between Russia, between the NASA and the Soviet Union and and played a role in opening the, doorway the the door to, the cooperation exists to this day, between, Russia and America and has survived all the, you know, political disputes. And, and so, but the point the reason I'm raising it, I was present when the Russians were creating their space agency. And I'll tell you something.

Not many people know, but the Russians thought about it very carefully, and they said, we don't want a space agency like NASA. And, I was present for some of the discussions and what the Russians were planning to do in 94. This was under Boris Yeltsin, and they're opening up to the west. They said, we want a space agency which reflects Russian society. We want writers. We want artists. We want, engineers. We want religious people.

And and we'll have a government division to interface with NASA, to do the paperwork, but we want something more from our space agency. And they told us to NASA in 94 in 1994, and NASA said, no way. You know, we're not sitting down with a bunch of writers. We're not sitting down with a bunch of philosophers. You know, a space agency represents your government, and it's on a government to go you know, boom boom boom boom boom. And so Russia came up with Roscosmos.

It was 3 people to start, and there you are. So the world is like mushrooms. The space agencies, you know, just keep growing. And so we have them. So, the second point that, I raised was what is the right role of these space agencies, but I first wanted to get on the record that I'm not pleased we have them.

And No. That that that's, again, that's why this podcast is here because I'm hearing from individuals' stories that are re I I think will help to reshape the thinking that people have behind where we are and why we are and what we're doing in the future. So this is this is fantastic. You're an optimistic man, David. Okay. So so okay. So I've spent my career, trying to do one one or two things, you know, make space a normal place to do business.

And and probably one of the most fundamental ways to begin that journey is to have government as a customer. And over and over, I've been fortunate. I've been able to testify before congress, more and more in the last few years, and and be able to speak to newcomers in the industry. And folks are always asking me, what's the single most important thing, Jeffrey, if you were in a position to, you know, wave that magic wand?

What should we change Over and over since the nineties, it's been government as customer. Okay? So where the where the government goes out and it procures goods and services, in our case, it's space goods and services.

And in the 7 well, I won't go into the you know 70s don't exist in the in as we began in the 90s with the collapse of the soviet union And the emergence of commercial space activities in russia there was a fundamental drive by a number of people, including myself, to try and get and it began in the eighties in in the states, to try and get NASA to behave as a customer. And you began to see that with the first, the cargo missions they're called CRS 1. When NASA stepped up and said, okay.

The shuttle, you know, we're sending, humans to the space station. We shouldn't be sending missions, with human beings that have just cargo in them. And, you know, why risk human beings when it's a a a mission to send, food and and other, you know, basic supplies to the space station? So they came up with a contract, exists today, called CRS 1 cargo resupply, and, they awarded it to a number of people. There were some lawsuits.

And in the end, it emerged that Elon Musk, SpaceX, and Orbital Sciences, emerged as the winner. And for the first time in our our space program, NASA was saying NASA was not saying, we're going to design the vehicle, the launch vehicle. We're gonna develop it. We're gonna manufacture it, and we're gonna run it. No. They said, okay. We'll pay you for the cargo that goes to the space station. And Orbital Sciences had to develop their vehicle, and SpaceX began developing their vehicle.

And so CRS was the beginning of a change in what's called in Washington the public private partnerships that exist between government and industry. And and it was a very important change. And then next week, we had the the the, voluntary, in a sense, the Just I'll jump in. Do you, you the entree to NASA for me, if you'd I don't know if you recall Yeah. Was the portal, the public private partnerships out of NASA with Dan Rapsky and That's right. That's right.

So that's exactly where I came into that. That's right. And and it's new. And for example, at Nanoracks, we were started 10 years ago. And over the past 2, 3 year every 2, 3 years, our relationship with NASA deepens. And and, it's actually germane to this point. I mean, NASA for us at Nanoracks is a landlord because we use the space station. They're sometimes a customer. They're a safety regulator, and they're still sometimes a competitor, but not as much as they used to be.

And so and so the role of the space agency, has to be as a customer. And, I'll tell you just one cool thing coming up now that I'm very proud of, but it it again explains how the role of space agencies is changing before our eyes. Nanoracks has just picked up a very exciting contract from the UAE Space Agency.

The UAE Space Agency, as we have this interview, has announced and and is preparing for a UAE citizen to fly to the International Space Station through the Russian Space Station commercially. Let's stop right there for a moment. How different than it used to be? Russians used to only send people diplomatically. We used to send people to the space shut on the space shuttle. Foreigners, diplomatically, we'd fly a a sortie citizen at no cost. The Russians would fly a Vietnamese citizen at no cost.

Those things Now it's a commercial venture? Now it's a commercial venture, and I'll tell you in a moment the beginning of that. But Well, I wanna I wanna share. I was just with, Nabila Al Shemeshi. She is the consulate general of UAE Oh. In Hong Kong. I was have smoking a cigar with her, and we were talking about exactly this. This is fantastic. Cool. So the UAE has formed the space agency. They've announced missions to Mars.

They want their goal is to go to Mars, and they wanna begin to train in astronaut corps. And instead of having a diplomatic, relationship, they they, they commercially reached out to the Russians. And, and and it's going and it's agreed by the UAE that Nanoracks will be doing the research for their astronaut on the space station.

So here you have a sovereign space agency working non US sovereign space agency, working with a non US sovereign space agency commercially and yet reaching out to an American company to do the research portion of the, mission. That is the right role of the space agencies, to behave in a normal way, to behave as a as a customer so that the commercial sector is willing to invest, is willing to be imaginative, is willing to have competition, and and you begin to create a market.

So that is the right role for space agencies. We're seeing that transition. It's 15 Who who if if you were to put a finger point, if you were to say, this is when I felt it, this is when I I understood it. This is the person who did it. Is there a moment in time where you just said, wow. Yes. It's it's doing it. Yes. And you will be shocked at the moment in time. That's why I'm asking. So in the nineties, I was working for the Russians.

And as I used to say I don't say it as much because it's it's not as true now. But in I used to say for many years that in the nineties, if you wanted to work for the socialist in space, you'd work for NASA. And if you wanted to work for the capitalists, you work for the Russians. And I like to work for capitalists. So I was in Russia, and I was helping to, privatize the great, previously Soviet organization, Energia. As I said a moment ago, they they, you know, they did Gagarin.

Minor minor moments in space exploration history. They did Gagarin. They did Sputnik, the first woman, the first pictures from the the far side of the moon, the first space stations. And, during the time of, of, perestroika, or I haven't said that word in a while, perestroika, the the opening up and changing of the Soviet Union, the Soviets really commercialized 3 programs. The really, the only 3 programs they had which were world class. One was, the Bolshoi, the ballet.

Yeah. 1 was Aeroflot, and the third was their space program. And so the head of Energia was a crusty, Soviet, patriot called Yuri Semyonov, to be exact, Yuri Pavlovich Semyonov. And through a a series of things, including, at the request of Gerard O'Neill, the great space, pioneer visionary, I went to Russia and met with Energia. And, soon enough, long story, won't go into it now, they invited me to join and represent them in the states.

And after clearing it with the White House, no full eye from Ellenville, New York, I I got it in, I got a letter from the, first Bush White House. They couldn't endorse it, but saying how interesting that you're beginning to work with the Russian organization, and they're here. We wish you the best of luck. And so the reason I joined with them was Semyonov said to me, I wanna be a private company. I wanna be on a stock exchange.

I I want and this is a loyal, loyal Soviet slash Russian patriot of the nineties, early nineties, eighties. And and one of the things that, we began to say is Why did what you know? Simionov said I can't fly the europeans anymore to the mir space station the russian space station. I don't have the money I have to charge them Well, why not? Yeah, if space is another place to do business and you wanna go, to a place, you want a service, you pay for it. Now That's right.

Yeah. Now your motivation, that of the European nations, their motivation may have been political. They wanted to have good relations with Soviet Union slash Russia. But you, you're running a business. So mister Simeonov went and met with the Europeans, and I was present when he came back. And I don't remember the year. It's I don't know. I it would be like That's okay. I'm not a year person. I Yeah. But it's just Okay. It was a decade. It was a decade. Okay?

And, he came back, and he was he was triumph he came in. We were in his in his, the main office where around was this big wooden table where Karloff, the great designer of Anurag, had made the decision to do, Gagarin. So this was the famous table. And he came in, and he said slammed his fist on the table, and he said, we got it. The Europeans agreed. They're gonna pay us. They're gonna pay us to go to the space station.

Well, to my understanding, that was the first time that nation states said, when we do something with others, we will pay for it just like any other business. And the reason I was in that room was Dan Goldin, the then head of NASA, was in Moscow. And Semyonov, said to me, you know, I'm gonna do the same with the Americans. And I'm like, you know, go for it. And among certain people, this is a legendary meeting. Semyonov It sounds it sounds amazing.

Yeah. I I I'm gonna ask a side question we don't have to go into. Yeah. Do you speak Russian? Ochunplocha. Very poorly. Very Okay. But you and you understand Yes. I understand. Okay. So I just wanted to I I love the I love the the diversity of culture when you can understand someone else's language. Exactly. So much richness in Texas.

Yeah. I I really when I began to when I left the hotels and moved into a flat is really when in watching TV and, it really is when I begin I never took formal lessons. And and so You don't have to. I learned I learned Spanish because I met at 16 years old, I met this woman in Spain. Yes. That was the beginning of learnings and loving Spanish. I'm sure among other things. But okay. But you're interviewing me. I'm not interviewing you. So Right. So so we've got this fantastic moment in time.

Simeonov goes and meets, and, and NASA would never allow me at the meetings. They were very uncomfortable because I was American. They'd always make use of me. Okay. They were hypocrites at that time. They, you know, they'd call me up and say, okay, Jeff. What's happening here? But I wasn't allowed in the in the meetings. And, and so, they go into the meeting.

And as told by a number of people, including, Golden's aids, it's it's been in several books, Semyonov lays out that going forward because, what what, Clinton Clinton, Yeltsin had put in place is why not an audacious plan, why not have the shuttle visit the Mir? We called it Mir Shuttle. The Americans called it shuttle Mir. Okay. So, Sivanov goes in and says, I wanna be paid for that. And Golden says, what are you? A prostitute? What are you? You know? What are you?

Uh-uh-uh, you know, a a beggar? No. I'm not paying for this. And he he leaves storms out of the meeting and and goes across town and meets with the head of the Russian Space Agency, which was then 3 people. And the head of the Russian Space Agency says, sure. We'll do everything for nothing.

And and for several years, NASA try you know, it was one of the reasons why the Russians one of the reasons why the Russians got this bad press at that time because they couldn't uphold their commitments because the Americans weren't paying them. And newsflash for those of you who remember, newsflash for those of you who don't remember the late nineties, the Russians were broke. And they they had no money, and Semyonov was like, we I'm the implementer. My space agency is 3 people.

You wanna dock to the mirror? You want us to build a space station with you? I'm jumping. Give it to you. You have to pay us. You're the you're the capitalist. Right. I understand that. And and so pay us. So proud of Semyonov. I was so proud of Energia. And and about 5, 6 years after that, I was attending a conference, in Washington, and the head of international for NASA was speaking, who's a friend of mine, so I won't mention his name.

And, he said there was only one time in our history when NASA paid a foreign, organization, to do services. And he said, that was when we paid the Russians. And and I stood up and and, you know, it was like 200 people in the audience, and and he just he saw me. He said, you know, hell Manburs here, you know? And Right. Oh, no. Oh, no. So we could actually verify something. In the end, Massipate.

So we're sort of straying a little bit, but but the proper behavior of space agencies, in my view, began with the Russians. And it is a source that history is forgetting. In our in our wonderful time in America that we have in space the space program today, space exploration, we forget, we choose to forget that I believe passionately and and with confidence that it was the Russians who led the way, and it was the Russians who taught us, how you can make this a normal marketplace.

And I was involved with the European Bank of Reconstruction and other international organizations when Energia privatized. And as you may or may not know at the, turn of the century in 2000, I led a dutch company called Mircorp where we leased the Russian space station for 2 years, drove Dan Goldin berserk, Absolutely berserk. Okay? But we leased the russian space station that had been privatized. The government of russia privatized the mir, gave it to anirkya. I led a group of investors.

We kept it open for 2 years. We can talk more about that. But a lot of commercialization began with the Russians. And, unfortunately, today, Russian's returning to its normal, where space may be a normal place to do business for them, which is different from us, which is centralization, control from the Kremlin, not really allowing commercial companies and strategic assets. And so those days are gone in Russia.

So to to complete only 0.2, the right role of space agencies is to be a, a custom a custom. Fantastic. I love this. This is awesome. Okay. This this is this is amazing to hear because it's it's it's like closed door meetings that you're Yeah. You're hearing the story. Again, I'm gonna go back to Springland, which is right side of Ellenville Yeah. Yeah. Where my mom was from. Yeah. I'm going back to my grandmother in these stories that they would tell you that no one knew.

And they tell often on a deathbed or they tell it the last few years of, like, oh, remember this. That's not exactly how it happened. David, I I have never been compared to somebody's grandmother, so thank you. This is a undue honor for me. Thank you. You you drove brought you drove by Slaven's bungalow colony. Yes. That was my mom. Well, then I'm honored to be compared to your grandma. Well, you know you know what I'm talking about, Slade. I do that. I do that. Yeah. Yes. So, yeah.

So that's I I know the story. So, yeah, that's fantastic. This is this is amazing. I'm I'm I'm smiling because I I've not heard any of this. None of that in in the, you know, 5 years been doing this type of work. So fantastic. So so let's get to this next one because it's a it's a nice big shift. And is Elon Musk the reason for the excitement today? Or I I I'd love to hear your angle based upon what you've already we're we're learning something already.

Well, you know, I'm gonna deflate it a little bit. We don't have to spend too much on this because we've covered so much. And and I I put it in here for the reason because Elon Musk, of course, is is, he is the Elon Musk is the reason for the excitement in space. But for those of us in the industry, it's important to know that Elon Musk is taking advantage of everything that we have just been talking about, and that is the fundamental shift. Okay? Forgive me.

I mean, Elon, you know, is extraordinary, absolutely extraordinary what he's accomplished. But much of what SpaceX has done is as a contractor, as a contractor to NASA. I told you under the CRS, the Right. Commercial, resupply contract. And so, his success is due to his taking, winning a government contract and, and, take and and getting government money. And and he can do that he does it with a flare. Probably the only one close to him would be Richard Branson.

He does it with an extraordinary flare, extraordinary gift. But the point that is worth saying and and understanding is that he is not capitalizing SpaceX with his, personal money, though he has spent 100 of 1,000,000. But he's was able to do it and raise the money he has, raised because he has the government contracts. And I I've said this, in the book. I I think I said it with you. I'm writing a book called The Age of Infinite. Right.

One of the items that I have in there is that Elon Musk, as brilliant as he is in whatever he's done, his company, SpaceX, is government subsidized, if you wanna say Tesla Yes. Is government subsidized. And and the, and SolarCity is all being a a service or some type of connection to the US government. Well So Yeah. Same same thing here is he has he's servicing the US government. Without the government, it might be a whole different And so 30 years ago, there would be no Elon Musk. Okay?

30 years ago, there could be, you know, no Nanoracks because the government was not the customer. And as I just said, I think the first example that I know it is with the Russian American relations and and Yuri Semyonov. But so for me, and it's it's I'm not putting him down. It's like saying Einstein I know that. You know, Einstein I It was you know, Einstein is not good. Right? It's like saying Einstein wrote his theory because, he had thick glasses and the kids made fun of him.

So, I mean, it may have been true, and I don't think it is. I don't think he wore glasses. But just my point, I mean, you know, so Elon Musk, the exciting thing for me in the industry is that Elon Musk is the result of a change in policy that we have worked so hard since the eighties to to to realize. We were hopeful that an Elon Musk would come out of this. We were hopeful that a Bezos.

We were hopeful that companies, like Planet and Satellites and and, and all this explosion of launch vehicles could raise capital. And out of that, you get flamboyant entrepreneurs. You get, you know, steadfast entrepreneurs. You get imaginative. You may get shifty. You may get corrupt. So let me I I'm gonna take a I I have a question that's on my mind, and I will I'm gonna ask Skip. You might be planning on going over it of over this afterwards.

And, I think, as I've said, I don't even know what your outline is. So I we're working on on the fly on all of this.

My question comes down to what I've been hearing as a buzz is that I think there's a 116 launch companies that are now active in the space and are trying to promote themselves in the space industry that the that because of Elon's success and how quickly he's going through his backlog of orders, that with the ecosystem the way it is today, that there could be a real challenge because there's not as much business to fulfill that type of ecosystem. Well, we can, yes.

We can, now merge the, point of are we in a venture capital bubble. And so let's merge the 2 together. And and and, yes, there is an extraordinary amount of launch vehicles. And, when you unleash the imagination of the private sector, when you have a commercial marketplace, you you have these bursts in, in liquidity. You have these bursts in, technological advances.

So I just saw and and, again, here, I'm not in any way making fun or light, but I just read an article saying there's 2 rocket companies, announced in in the state of Maine. Good god, man. I mean, and I will say something terrible. In in the office of Nanoracks, a couple of the folks, You know, every time we learn about a new launch vehicle, you know, we sort of stand up and, you know, we salute or something. I mean, so, for there is no way.

There is no way that if Virgin Orbit flies 12 times a year, if Rocket Lab now value a valuation of $1,000,000,000 and they've done 3 missions, I believe, if they fly 12 or 14 times a year, if vector comes along, if if, if, the 3 d printing one, I forget now, comes along. And and, and at Nanoracks, we've deployed over 200 satellites from the space station, and we'll always have a niche from the space station. There's reasons for that. And so we continue to deploy grow and deploy, satellites.

And then you throw in India, the PSLV. You throw in the Russians. You throw in the French. Okay? You throw in the Chinese bursting onto the market. So let's say in in 4 years, you have 60, 70, missions a year. Does the market support it for satellite deployment? No. The answer is no. The answer is no. And so what will happen? Well, what usually happens in a commercial marketplace, it's like a forest fire. Okay?

Forest fire will sweep through the the industry, and the the haughtiest will survive, and we'll emerge stronger. At Nanoracks, we call ourselves a destination company. And and we won't really get into it tonight, but we're engaged. Not only are we the largest commercial user of this International Space Station, but we have significant serious plans to have our own platforms in different orbits over the next 5, 6, 7, 8 years. And part of the reason for that is all of these launch vehicles.

And and so we see the shakeout coming in 5, 6 years. We see margins coming down, price coming down per kilogram, and I wanna be the destination that takes raw materials for in space manufacturing or for tourists or whatever. So so we're in a bubble. And and I'll tell you and I'll I'll I'll be honest and say at Nanoracks, since we're a destination company, it's tough to raise money because we're not in the we're not in the launch vehicle business.

We're not in the satellite constellation business. We're not in the big data business. We're not in the earth observation business. And so, I I watch with some envy, but, you know, Yeah. Elon is part of the reason for this. He's attracted just as the Beatles, you know, spawned how many rock groups. And, and only here it's different. So I think we we've, I'll say, for the interest of time, I'm delighted to say I think we covered 2 points there.

Yeah. Well, the, first of all, you could be as I have a company, we did computational social science, artificial intelligence, machine learning, all sorts of things. You could be in the big data business. You could be, positioning yourself on the on the raise differently. Mhmm. And while you're using the terminology that you're using that says your destination, there's there's a lot more underlying activity that could happen that could transform that. We could talk about that Okay.

At another time. But so, yes, it's a it's a I I'm glad you brought that or at least agreed with my Yes. Indeed. Assessment that there there were it's a $330,000,000,000 industry. We just saw 2 major companies, planetary and, Deep Space, both fold with, tens of 1,000,000 of dollars invested. Yeah. And it it's going to get rid of the hype Yep. And get rid of those that really can deliver on the the promise and run their business accordingly. So fantastic.

And and and that kind of if I may be the director here and suggest that okay. That's, that it segs into I think I said one of the points is, something along the lines. I don't know exactly what I said to you, but my biggest fear. Yeah. You said the biggest fear, and then I didn't get to catch the rest of your Yeah. Your biggest fear. And I when you said that, I said, okay.

I really wanna hear this because you've been involved in this industry as, as one of the I'm not gonna call it the pioneer, but I sound like an old man. Yeah. But for a long time. Yeah. You did. So 10 minutes ago, you compared me to your grandmother. And so they and so Well, my grandmother passed. Okay. She passed. So I'm I'm going I I do think you're older than me. I'm 55. Yes. I'm older than you. I'm a pioneer. I thought you were. I'm a pioneer. Yes, sir. You're a pioneer.

So so, so so yes, grandpa. Yeah. So so the biggest fear, and look. I remember, speaking of age, and I remember during the time of Apollo when, there were huge protests in America over the, use of taxpayer funds for the lunar program given the the poverty in the Americas' cities. And I remember I believe I I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's reverend Abernathy, because I a year or 2 ago, I read the reread the Norman Mailer book on on, I forget the name, the on Apollo. Wonderful book.

And, you know, you have people like reverend Abernathy, mobilizing and protesting. And when you see these documentaries today on the Apollo program as we hit 50 years, there's no mention. There was there was a large segment of our society, which recoiled at the expense. And so my fear today is based on that and slightly different. The political discussion in the country today is a lot on income inequality, and I happen to believe it's justified debate.

And and there is a perception that to be in the commercial space business today, you are older, you are white, and you are a billionaire. And that's bad. I mean, you know, what we're doing in space is extraordinary, and it's changing and has the potential to continue to change the lives of people here on the earth, ecological monitoring, you know, looking at the rainforest. We now do it from small satellites called cubesats or small satellites.

Companies like Spire, Planet, and dozens of others are monitoring the earth. And, and and there's so many cubesats being used for a study. Nanoracks deployed a European constellation called QB 50 monitoring, the upper atmosphere. There's a lot of good coming out of this.

And and yet, I worry that as we, debate, income inequality And and as Jeff Bezos, for example, gets more popular, and and, you you you know, he got into a public debate with, Bernie Sanders on on minimum wages and Amazon and and working conditions and his companies, that that for a large segment of our population, they will see this effort as, you know, the the, the the rulers, the the the ones with the purse strings, the the ones who gained the system and the ones who have the 1,000,000,000 and instead of spending it on on health care as jeff bezos is but, you know, and elon musk is devoting a lot of his life to renewable energy and electric cars, but the public perception in many ways is that bunch of white billionaires are doing this.

And I'll say that I was struck about a year ago in the rise in the, in the right wing papers or the the Republican and more conservative papers, I'm not sure of the correct terminology anymore, of this anger, this visceral anger against Elon Musk. And you described them the same way they do a moment ago without the anger. You said a lot of what he's doing in his business comes from the government, and there's a growing amount of the population that is angry about that.

And and and so I that's that's my biggest fear is that the more, the more it becomes a legitimate business, a commercial business, a time of when we can actually think about going forth and questioning who we are as a species and going out to the to the stars, We're going to really fall prey. Is this a rich man's game? The on my end, in terms of the United States government being a a customer, just to be clear, and I'm not saying for you.

I'm just saying it in general, is that I it doesn't matter to me. That's how he built his business, and I Yeah. Applaud him for for taking advantage of an opportunity in a local market. But others are taking that as well as pipe. Right. Others are taking that same data point and saying And looking at this is like the Obama people. You know, when Obama gave money to to this group, it's all inside. You gotta be inside the system. And and, I felt it a little bit.

And and and Well well, that but that is a that is a political challenge that we're struggling with around the world, whether it be Brexit or whether it be the German, view of the EU as it's converting today. Yeah. This is a this is a global phenomenon where I think, to some degree, the visibility, the transparency, but the lack of media attention, and all of these challenges we're facing are starting to uncover, discover, identify, or amplify the challenges that we're facing.

Right. So I I like I like the point that you're making, but I'll take if I can take a little jump off of it. And this is where you and I might wanna have that conversation about what Project Moon Hut is about. Yeah. We want our narrative ends up transforming that thinking into something completely different. Meaning, if it becomes space and it's solely space, then it will be and will continue to be for a period of time that white male, billionaire. But there are others that are interested.

The Chinese, not as much in terms of the billionaires. But there that narrative is gonna continue, and what has to happen is that space has to become something different. Yes. It has to be climate change. I there's 6 in Project Moon Hunt. Climate change, mass extinction, social displacement, resource depletion, political unrest, and unintended consequences from some other things that I would go over another time. So Yeah. It's changing that narrative, and that's what Project Moon Hut is about.

Cool. It is exactly that. It's to change that narrative so that we expand the ecosystem of people who understand it and see the valuation in it. And that's why and you and I have not had this conversation, but I think you might have heard it at the event. I called it Mearth. Yeah. Moon and Earth. Yeah. Because we live within this environment called moon and Earth. So we'll we'll talk at another time, but I love not but. I do love how you've brought this down into your biggest fear.

Are there any other fears that you're getting Well that you have? Well, yes. There is another one tied to the same thing, which goes back to our shared New York roots. And and, it's a it's another facet of what I was just saying. And we're having this interview, to to date it, some weeks after, New York City and Queens specifically, booted out, the Amazon, proposal, to to have a headquarters or plant or whatever it was in in Queens. And so one of my fears is philosophical.

I I grew up in new york. I grew up my family had a, was restaurant at a restaurant And I worked in the restaurant did everything cook bartender, you know went to the then the fulton fish market bought fish And I I believe in the middle class and I believe it's one of the very unique things about this country is the middle class.

And, and and one of my worries is that, we're gonna go straight into commercialization, and the players will either be companies that have half a $1,000,000,000 in venture capital, which has dynamics of its own, or it will be led by Branson, Musk, and Bezos. And I'm very proud of what Nanoracks is. We're 70 people now. We're supported by customer revenue. And and, I worry that that, they will they just like in Europe. In Europe today, Nanorex has just opened an office in, Torino, Italy.

And one of the things we did was we wanted to find a strategic partner in Europe, bigger than us, but not terribly big. You know, we wanted someone like 600 people, 800 people, 1000 people. Can't find it. Doesn't exist. Okay? You have Airbus. You have and and in the space community, you have you have the smaller guys, and you have I mean, real small, 5 people, 10 people coming out of Berlin, coming out, beginning to see a little bit out of France, coming out, little pockets, in England.

But I said Europe, and who knows what England is? But, and and so and and and and and quite. You can't find. You have Airbus, Thales. You have the big players. You cannot find, a company of a 1000 people, and that worries me because that is where you have both still the imagination, the the the efficiencies of the still, what I would call, the entrepreneurial spirit, and you're not yet, you know, difference between a legacy company and entrepreneurial company.

And so I worry that space commercial space is going to go directly, like, so much of America today into the front you know, the big company, the box store. The you know?

Yeah. One person after an interview didn't share didn't wanna share it on the interview, and this individual said that the fear in this person's mind was that military, large corporations, Lockheed Martin, the the larger businesses will dominate this industry, and this new new space is they're calling it or individuals they're calling it will not get that growth because it's really gonna be dominated by the big players in the end anyway. Yeah. That's kind of what I was saying.

I will say that in my career, until recently, it was, some of the military folks that were the most creative. And, you know, they've for better or worse, they've certainly done some extraordinary things in space. And I and I don't disagree with that. I think her her I used the the perception was that there was a that because in the background, these are where the contracts go. Sure. Where the resources are. Exactly. That's true.

Make it tough for these smaller companies to be able to play in the space. And and yes. Absolutely true. And so, you know, yes. So that's that's a second fear that I have. My fear is no longer as much technological. My fear is no as much regulatory. I mean, there's something in our business called the Wolf Amendment that prohibits NASA from working with China. And 2 years ago, I was able to bring over onto the International Space Station the first commercial Chinese customer.

Even though there's a Wolf amendment, it was Beijing Institute of Technology on a fascinating synthetic DNA project. And so those aren't my worries now. It's the 2 that we just meant. The more sociological, the more, what is this?

On the one hand, I've spent 45 minutes with you, saying how much I've spent my career and my life, trying to make space another place to do business, and it's a normal marketplace where we we live in a time, justified or unjustified, where that may not be the best thing. And, yeah, and I think if if I I don't know if you would agree if I was to paint a picture of the world and you looked at space. You have all of this noise from Luxembourg and the Yeah.

European Space Agency, and you've got it from India, and you've got UAE, Russia. Yet when we look at Russia, I've been told by a person who isn't Russia that there's only 2 private space companies in all of Russia. Yes. And then I'm speaking at the Space Forum in Luxembourg in, I think it's May or something like that. And throughout the European Union, there is not a tremendous amount of real strong activity. You know, I think Lithuania is trying to get into the mix.

If you were to do a a size map where the bubbles are the size of how much the the United States still dominates Right. This entire And China's coming. China's coming. China's coming. Commercial. On a commercial. Is definitely coming. Yeah. On a commercial. So yeah. Yeah. On the and let's let's take the, the best moment. Okay. Yeah. That's a good way, I think, to to sort of wind it up. So I mentioned briefly I worked for, the Russians in the nineties. I worked for Nergia.

I headed up a company called Nergia USA, and I represented the Russians and and, Nergia. And it was a wonderful, fascinating time. We we, create we, the United States walked away from space station freedom, elected to to work with the Russians, and then it was very interesting. Few years later, I was involved, as I said, in a Dutch company called Mircorp.

And when I look at it's probably one of those moments, it was that, we we put 40 or something $1,000,000 on the table, and we leased the Russian space station Mir. And, to this day, it's about to end soon, I'm very happy to say, but MirCorp sponsored the world's 1st and right now only commercial crew. We sent 2 cosmonauts to the, abandoned Mir station, and we funded it for 70 something days. And it was extraordinary. There was a Why did the why did you go to the abandoned station?

We wanted to keep it. I mentioned you know, my career has been in space stations. The Russians were under pressure from the Americans to abandon the station so they would focus their national interest on, the International Space Station. Mister Semyonov had been given the space station by his government. He was now private. And he, behaving like a businessperson, wanted to raise capital and preserve the station.

And I am always in favor of preserving something in space, whether it's the Mir space station, whether it's cargo ships. We fill with garbage now in destroying the upper atmosphere, which tells you more of, everything you wanna know still about the industry today that we destroy perfectly good spacecraft, in space by stuffing them with garbage. And and so after they delivered the cargo to the space station, so, I was brought in. I didn't realize that. Yes. It's amazing.

When Orbital when Orbital, and the Russians with progress, send, cargo to the, and the Japanese, they send the cargo ships up. They're filled with supplies and experiments, and on some of them, Nanoracks is half the vehicle, like SpaceX or something. And, it gets to the station, and the astronauts, and when it docks, or as we also say, sometimes berths, it the astronauts unload the cargo.

And then and the news and the media covers all that, and there's, you know, chocolate, and there's presence, and there's science experiments. And then the media attention goes away, and the astronauts spend a couple weeks loading it with garbage. And they turn it around and destroy it. Now spacex is not. SpaceX has something called the Dragon, which lands, and that's how you get supplies down in the okay.

So so, and we at Nanoracks are working on ways that we can use those cargo ships after their time has passed. We call it the greening of the space program. Okay? So, it's just an extraordinary waste, but it says a lot about, how the mindset was when they created this architecture 25 years ago. So at NIRCORP, we came together to save the, station, and I I've written a book about it called selling peace. That was the, Mir is the Russian word for peace.

And, it's a interesting look at what it was like being an American sitting opposite NASA, during this time. And, so so the day of the, launch, here we are. There's a lot of public pressure. All the newspapers in the world were covering this, and, and we were ready for our launch. And I go to mission control in Russia, And I'm I'm nervous. I mean, you know, there's a lot of pressure saying don't do this Don't try and keep the station open.

And, they launch the the crew launches They get to the station and all the press is covering it. The media is on the cameras were right in my face I remember the moment. I was just so nervous. And, and the next day, they dock, and, they open the, hatch. And, they say we we come here for Amir Corp, and we thank them. And, they told me later, the crew, the the 2, cosmonauts, that it was just terrible. There was just, you know, stuff dripping.

And and, by the way, we learned a lot, we as a space faring people, on how to fix things and, because of the MIRCORP mission, because they got the Mir back up to health during their 70 days. But the the point, probably the best moment that I can recall, and I'd like to say so far the best moment in my career, was the next day, under the terms of the lease, we had a lease agreement with America that we would, like like any lease of an apartment.

We control the, mirror to the first coat of paint, we called it. And, that went on to international obligations. If anything went wrong with the Mir, it's the responsibility of the Russians. And, and but under the lease agreement that, once, the docking took place and the cosmonauts were inside the Mir, we were now the of the only space station in existence. And, so I was taken aside. I didn't know what was happening. So the the the the hatch opens. They say, we're here from MirCorp.

And then 2 men, Valerie Roman, Khosbanov, and, an important official with, with mister Semyonov, and, the head of mission control in, his name begins with an s. I can't remember it right now. So so, Ivanov or something. I'm off slightly. They take me aside, and we go into a side room.

And suddenly, they're extremely formal, and they say, mister Mandeville, under the terms of the lease agreement that has been signed between MirCorp and Energia, you are now in charge of the operation of the Mir space station. What are your orders? What do you mean what are my orders? So I'll back up for a second and say only a few people listening probably to remember That the mirror was the butt of jokes at that time.

It was, old there had been a leak on the station And, I will point out to you that recently there was a leak on the iss, but I won't go into that So anyway, there was a leak on the Mir station. Everybody was making fun of it. So these 2 men, these 2 leaders of the Russian space community, mister Mandeville, what are your orders? I'm thinking fast. I turn to, Valerie Roman. I say, mister Roman, being equally, formal, what is your suggestion?

And he said Yeah. Let's get some experiments going right away. Show things and all. We had about 80 experiments of Russian schools and some paying customers. And, and I turned to Solovano for something closer. And forgive me if he ever listens to this. I'm butchering his thing, but solov that's it. And, I say, what are your suggestions? He said we have to plug the leak. We can't really do anything. I'm not comfortable with our men up there. I wanna find that leak. I wanna plug it. I said, okay.

I said, let's do this. 24 hours, you look for the leak. 48. I said, I think I forget that. 48 hours, you look for the leak. Nothing but that. After 2 days, if you don't find it, let's do some simple experiments, and we'll announce it. And they said, very good. Now, even then, do I believe that they really listened to me? No. No. I mean, this is their space station. This their their they were veterans, but it was an extraordinary moment. It was just an extraordinary moment.

And I sort of like, hey. You know? I I'm in charge of the Mir space station. And and, you know, so it was and I learned so much. I'll I'll say I sort of finish here by saying a lot of what I've been able to do with Nanoracks, a lot of what I'll be able to do on any other space station I work with, I'll own at Nanoracks or if I ever work with the Chinese space station or whatever. I learned at that time.

I learned with the Russians, working with the, working with Miacorp on on how organic, how complex the space station is. It's filled with you have to worry about solar, flares and solar cycles. You have to worry about cargo ships and when they arrive. And it's it's an space stations have held my interest throughout my career. And so, anyway, that was the best moment when they just turned to me and said, you're in charge now. What are your orders? So that's it.

To have a to have a space station, circling around the globe sounds amazing. Right. Right. And having the American government, absolutely, upset with you, pissed at you in every step of the way. It was a transformational moment for me because I found what I was made of. And, and, when the mirror came down, it was forced down by the American government, but we had a 179,000,000 in backlog.

I signed with Mark Burnett of Survivor, still doing it, and NBC to do a game show where the winner would go to space and some other cool things. And had we survived, had we been able to go another year, we would have turned the corner. So it's it was it was a forgotten moment, and, and some folks are planning to do some media attention on it because it's the 20 year anniversary now. So, There's it's not forgotten now. Yes. There you go. It is is in Yeah. Etched in digital. There you go.

There you go. So So I I I remember it Yeah. I did my first. I was doing a series of podcasts, and one of my sons said to me at one point, you know, you'll last forever. And I what are you talking about? Yeah. This was back in the 2000. Yeah. We're doing Zig Ziglar and Tom Peters, all these interviews. And they said, well, these will last forever to be on the Internet for as long as there's an Internet. Yeah. Hadn't thought about it. Yeah. I see it as about about 5 years ago.

Woman calls me up and says, we're NASA history, the archives. We'd like to do an interview with you. I gave it no thought. No thought. I went in. I did the interview. I can't tell you, but every 2 months, a writer or someone calls me up and says, I was reviewing your interview in the NASA archives. So let's hope this is the same and it adds to the This will be a lot bigger. You're we're we're getting traction more and more.

Hopefully, with you, we'll find some more interviews that'll be powerful, that'll help transform. And I think that what I've heard from you is you wanna make sure that we get over that camel's Yes. Hump. Indeed. So that we can make it. And we need this type of activity, people like you willing to come on our program, so that we can explore, understand, and help individuals, including myself.

And that's the reason I do this too is so that we can understand what's necessary to move us into the to the next frontier of space development. So Yeah. Jeffrey, this is fantastic. This is amazing. I loved every moment of it. It was exciting to hear. I hope you had the same feeling too as you were reliving some of these, experiences and and sharing some of your thoughts. Yes. I've enjoyed it tremendously, and, I forgive you for making, for making me do what I would call, the questions.

Homework. And, yes, homework. So thank you very much. And Well, because you brought it up, I have to with all the interviews I've done, Jeffrey, and there's been a 180 over the the years. I do the exact same format. There's no different, but you're the 1st person to write back questions to me that I should ask you. Like, okay. Maybe he really doesn't get this. Nope. So, no, this is a it's a dialogue across the table and you've come up with a few points and you talk about it.

And you did brilliantly. Good. I mean, this is you gave some insight that I don't think anybody I think many of the people that you and I both know have never heard these stories Good. In this way or these thoughts. Good. Good. Well, thank you. Appreciate it, David. Thank you. Yeah. It was fantastic. So for everybody who is listening, please pay attention to the age of infinite and pass it along to other individuals to let them share and learn. This is not just the space industry vehicle.

It's a tool to help the populace understand what's going on because this is an industry, it's a market, yet it also has potential to change how we live on earth for all species, meaning there's infinite possibilities. We expand from just earth into space and then from space into the resources on the moon or however you would like to view it.

And there's there's a be a lot more content coming out in that direction so that you'll be able to understand more of what we're trying to do, which I mentioned earlier in the program. So you can go to projectmoonhot.org. We are updating the site. This is in real time, but we're really trying to update and move. We're also writing a book called The Age of Infinite to kind of bring this information together, and we'll have that out soon.

You can go to facebook, dotcomprojectmoonhot forward slash project moonhut. You can connect with us at project moonhut on Twitter, and you can email me at [email protected]@projectmoonhut.org. So thank you for listening in. This was a brilliant conversation. Again, thank you for the time, Jeffrey, and I'm David Goldsmith. Thank you for listening.

Hello, everybody. This is David Goldsmith, and welcome to the Age of Infinite, a Project Moon Hut podcast series where we're working to create sustainable life on the moon, not self sustainable life, through the accelerated development of an Earth and space based ecosystem to change how we live for all species on earth. Kind of counterintuitive. We're not gonna go into that today because we have an amazing guest on the line. We have Jeffrey Manber. How are you, Jeffrey? I'm doing well, David.

Thanks for having me. Jeffrey is the CEO of Nanoracks, and the topic we're going to be talking about today is space, another place to do business. It's not a unique frontier. A short story about Jeffrey. Jeffrey was at a conference for the National Space Society in, in California, and he was talking to somebody else that's working with me on another project. And through their dialogue, they found out that their 2 moms went to the same, they grew up in the same town.

Well, as they're talking, my mom grew up in the same town also. So the connection became this little tiny place, which is very small on the map if you looked it up, called Ellenville, New York. Now, Jeffrey, has been involved in the space industry. He's highly respected everywhere. You you talk to anybody. And that, partially, that's because, partially for probably, because of this, he's been involved in working with the International Space Station in terms of, moving payloads up to space.

He's done, I think, over 700. He's worked with satellite deployments, all sorts of things, countries all over the world. He's, he's well versed in this topic. And so, Jeffrey, let's start. You do have a few bullet points we're going to cover today. With with great trepidation, I do have some bullet points, David. I I've never been asked to work before, a podcast or an interview, so I I, I do have some. Are you ready? Okay. So so what are they? Let's let's get them going. Here it goes.

I feel like I'm on some, you know, behind which door is the washing machine. So, the first one is it's been 50 years since, humanity landed on the moon. Why haven't we been back? Good. The second is, what's the right role for space agencies going forward? K. The third is, is Elon Musk the reason for the excitement in space today? 4th is k. My biggest fear about, space exploration and utilization. Yeah. I I think I have, 6. The 5th is, the best moment in my career. Oh, cool.

And, last for now is, are we in a venture capital bubble, with the the space exploration, and is that good or bad? Okay. These are really cool topics. I'm excited. So let's start with our first one. It's been 50 years since humanity landed on the moon, and it is a big question. Why? Why? Why have we not been back? Yeah. I mean, the the puzzling there's so many ways to tackle that question.

I mean, extraordinary probably one of the most extraordinary observations in the last 100, 150 years was made by Moore and Moore's law that technology, you know, keeps doubling and doubling. What an extraordinary, observation to have been true for so long. And and it Moore's law is is inherently American. And the reason why it's inherently American is it assumes certain things that we in America take for granted. It assumes that there are markets that are behaving commercially.

It assumes that the government has the the normal proper role of emerging markets, which is to support and to guide, but not to overregulate, and not to compete against. And we'll talk about that more when we get to see. So I I've gotta ask this question. I'm gonna I right in the beginning is, did you come up with this, or did you hear this, or did you read this? Because I've never heard this. I It's fascinating. I'm from Ellenville, David. I'm a bright boy.

I mean so, no, that I get these are all I mean, I've spent a little time about 3 decades thinking about this. Okay? So so It's it's absolutely amazing. It's it's my mind is racing. Yeah. I love it. So so, I mean, so so in that context, one of the biggest prop now I'm getting off a little bit the first point as to why it's taken so long for us to, return to the moon.

But one of the biggest challenges in my career, which has been, almost 30 years in in in com what's now called commercial spaces, understanding that until recently, that which we do, space exploration, has been behaved, has been operated completely differently from anything else we do in America. It's been, in a sense, un American. So we Moore's Law, until very, very recently, has not applied to space technology. It has not applied to space programs. It has not applied to launch vehicles.

It has not applied to space stations. We launched the the space program because of a politician, John f Kennedy. And he did an extraordinary disservice, in my opinion, by creating a government organization that would run an activity. And in so doing, he made this a political program. So so, I mean, we can spend, you know, whole evening talking about this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Whatever you I mean Yeah. No. No. I've got it. I've got I've got I understand the concept, and it's fantastic.

So so were you're saying that because it was un American or because it was set up this way that the populace did not get engaged in the same way, and we didn't have the Moore's law. We didn't have the markets. We didn't have all of those extras that made the market move. Correct. And it's the extraordinary thing about America. Okay? It's the fundamental speed. It's it can be destructive. It can be, have, have impact negative impacts on certain parts of society.

But the extraordinary the extraordinary, characteristic of American markets is we move forward, and we have not been able to do that until now in space exploration. So the politicians funded 1 program. Then they funded another program, Skylab. We'll talk about that. Then they funded a 3rd program, Space Shuttle. Okay? I I I don't know if I'm in the mood to even talk about that, but, you know, they funded the space shuttle. Have to.

And at and and at that time, David, the United States of America was single point dependent on getting to space. That's as if saying, the United States of America was single point dependent on getting on the Internet or was based on one car or one plane manufacturer.

I mean, what a disgrace to the way we, as a country, do things to have a single point dependency on taking humans and cargo into space And so the result was as go the politicians went the program And and and in many ways, the extraordinary nature of the, Apollo program, it was a, you know, a product of the Cold War. It was an instrument against the Soviet Union. It served its purpose. We got to the moon first.

We regained our pride if I don't know if it was lost incorrectly, after the so called Scott Sputnik surprise. I don't know if, you know, if we it should have felt we lost something, but, we felt we did feel that. We regained our pride. We put into place much of the infrastructure that, American industry has was able to, take advantage of and capitalize in the late sixties early seventies. And, we did far more than tango, than than not tango. What what was the juice called? The the tang.

Oh, tang. Tang. Tang. Tang. Yeah. I was ready to dance. Sang. And, and and and and That's a structure than tango. I'm thinking I've lost you on this one. Yeah. So so I I think that the the I mean, it did have benefits. I'm saying it had it had political benefits, the Apollo program. It did have industrial benefits.

But and so to summarize and sort of finish this this point is that if you're an outsider and you're wondering why we could get to the moon with slide rules literally and primitive technology, and it's been, more than half a century and the clock is ticking, it's because we put we did not put our best foot forward as we do in this country.

We made it a political program, and we should keep that in mind tonight and in the future, over the next couple of years as we talk about the extraordinary progress being made made now, it's because it's becoming more, when you say it's becoming a commercial program, you're really saying it's becoming normal, a normal place to do business.

Yeah. That's, I've heard all sorts of, reasons as you probably could guess as to why we've not been to space, than to to back up to the moon and as we haven't done what we expected. And this is a this connects many of those dots that I've heard. So it's a very interesting, angle, and I and I love it. I love it. I think it's got a lot of tracks. Yeah. So Yeah. Thank you. That's that's great. Okay. So the I guess the next one is the the right role for space agencies.

I guess that's where we're going to. Yeah. And, as as you could imagine, maybe from the first discussion, I I, you know, I I have a love hate relationship with NASA. And, and, today, NASA is very important to me and is a good partner at at Nanoracks, and we can talk about that. But, basically, I have born I I have held a grudge my entire career that we have a space agency. And and why do we have a space agency? We don't have an Internet agency. We don't have a car agency.

We don't have a bioengineering agency, all fundamentally important, to this country. So why do we have a space agency? Well, again, we go back to the the the first point that it was created by John f Kennedy, and he was a politician. And he created, took a a group of government officials, and he pulled them together. And he said, verily, I will give you money, and Lyndon Johnson made it happen. And we had a space agency.

And, you know, I I'm so frustrated because just as we're moving forward in this extraordinary time of the commercialization of our our space, exploration and utilization, so many other countries proudly are creating Space agencies and and then you know now we have the uk space agency. Why does the uk have a space agency? We have the UAE space. Why does the UAE have a space? Australia's space agency, Mexico's space agency. And I'll tell you a story.

You didn't mention, but, some of the folks listening to this may know that, I'm the only american to I believe the only american to ever work for the russian space program the manned russian space program And I worked in the bank directly for them. Yep. Yep. I worked for in there. I worked for in there. Yeah the lodge, organization that did sputnik and did, gagarin and Space stations in the 90s and we can talk about that. I helped privatize.

And there again I helped I carried over the first contract between Russia, between the NASA and the Soviet Union and and played a role in opening the, doorway the the door to, the cooperation exists to this day, between, Russia and America and has survived all the, you know, political disputes. And, and so, but the point the reason I'm raising it, I was present when the Russians were creating their space agency. And I'll tell you something.

Not many people know, but the Russians thought about it very carefully, and they said, we don't want a space agency like NASA. And, I was present for some of the discussions and what the Russians were planning to do in 94. This was under Boris Yeltsin, and they're opening up to the west. They said, we want a space agency which reflects Russian society. We want writers. We want artists. We want, engineers. We want religious people.

And and we'll have a government division to interface with NASA, to do the paperwork, but we want something more from our space agency. And they told us to NASA in 94 in 1994, and NASA said, no way. You know, we're not sitting down with a bunch of writers. We're not sitting down with a bunch of philosophers. You know, a space agency represents your government, and it's on a government to go you know, boom boom boom boom boom. And so Russia came up with Roscosmos.

It was 3 people to start, and there you are. So the world is like mushrooms. The space agencies, you know, just keep growing. And so we have them. So, the second point that, I raised was what is the right role of these space agencies, but I first wanted to get on the record that I'm not pleased we have them.

And No. That that that's, again, that's why this podcast is here because I'm hearing from individuals' stories that are re I I think will help to reshape the thinking that people have behind where we are and why we are and what we're doing in the future. So this is this is fantastic. You're an optimistic man, David. Okay. So so okay. So I've spent my career, trying to do one one or two things, you know, make space a normal place to do business.

And and probably one of the most fundamental ways to begin that journey is to have government as a customer. And over and over, I've been fortunate. I've been able to testify before congress, more and more in the last few years, and and be able to speak to newcomers in the industry. And folks are always asking me, what's the single most important thing, Jeffrey, if you were in a position to, you know, wave that magic wand?

What should we change Over and over since the nineties, it's been government as customer. Okay? So where the where the government goes out and it procures goods and services, in our case, it's space goods and services.

And in the 7 well, I won't go into the you know 70s don't exist in the in as we began in the 90s with the collapse of the soviet union And the emergence of commercial space activities in russia there was a fundamental drive by a number of people, including myself, to try and get and it began in the eighties in in the states, to try and get NASA to behave as a customer. And you began to see that with the first, the cargo missions they're called CRS 1. When NASA stepped up and said, okay.

The shuttle, you know, we're sending, humans to the space station. We shouldn't be sending missions, with human beings that have just cargo in them. And, you know, why risk human beings when it's a a a mission to send, food and and other, you know, basic supplies to the space station? So they came up with a contract, exists today, called CRS 1 cargo resupply, and, they awarded it to a number of people. There were some lawsuits.

And in the end, it emerged that Elon Musk, SpaceX, and Orbital Sciences, emerged as the winner. And for the first time in our our space program, NASA was saying NASA was not saying, we're going to design the vehicle, the launch vehicle. We're gonna develop it. We're gonna manufacture it, and we're gonna run it. No. They said, okay. We'll pay you for the cargo that goes to the space station. And Orbital Sciences had to develop their vehicle, and SpaceX began developing their vehicle.

And so CRS was the beginning of a change in what's called in Washington the public private partnerships that exist between government and industry. And and it was a very important change. And then next week, we had the the the, voluntary, in a sense, the Just I'll jump in. Do you, you the entree to NASA for me, if you'd I don't know if you recall Yeah. Was the portal, the public private partnerships out of NASA with Dan Rapsky and That's right. That's right.

So that's exactly where I came into that. That's right. And and it's new. And for example, at Nanoracks, we were started 10 years ago. And over the past 2, 3 year every 2, 3 years, our relationship with NASA deepens. And and, it's actually germane to this point. I mean, NASA for us at Nanoracks is a landlord because we use the space station. They're sometimes a customer. They're a safety regulator, and they're still sometimes a competitor, but not as much as they used to be.

And so and so the role of the space agency, has to be as a customer. And, I'll tell you just one cool thing coming up now that I'm very proud of, but it it again explains how the role of space agencies is changing before our eyes. Nanoracks has just picked up a very exciting contract from the UAE Space Agency.

The UAE Space Agency, as we have this interview, has announced and and is preparing for a UAE citizen to fly to the International Space Station through the Russian Space Station commercially. Let's stop right there for a moment. How different than it used to be? Russians used to only send people diplomatically. We used to send people to the space shut on the space shuttle. Foreigners, diplomatically, we'd fly a a sortie citizen at no cost. The Russians would fly a Vietnamese citizen at no cost.

Those things Now it's a commercial venture? Now it's a commercial venture, and I'll tell you in a moment the beginning of that. But Well, I wanna I wanna share. I was just with, Nabila Al Shemeshi. She is the consulate general of UAE Oh. In Hong Kong. I was have smoking a cigar with her, and we were talking about exactly this. This is fantastic. Cool. So the UAE has formed the space agency. They've announced missions to Mars.

They want their goal is to go to Mars, and they wanna begin to train in astronaut corps. And instead of having a diplomatic, relationship, they they, they commercially reached out to the Russians. And, and and it's going and it's agreed by the UAE that Nanoracks will be doing the research for their astronaut on the space station.

So here you have a sovereign space agency working non US sovereign space agency, working with a non US sovereign space agency commercially and yet reaching out to an American company to do the research portion of the, mission. That is the right role of the space agencies, to behave in a normal way, to behave as a as a customer so that the commercial sector is willing to invest, is willing to be imaginative, is willing to have competition, and and you begin to create a market.

So that is the right role for space agencies. We're seeing that transition. It's 15 Who who if if you were to put a finger point, if you were to say, this is when I felt it, this is when I I understood it. This is the person who did it. Is there a moment in time where you just said, wow. Yes. It's it's doing it. Yes. And you will be shocked at the moment in time. That's why I'm asking. So in the nineties, I was working for the Russians.

And as I used to say I don't say it as much because it's it's not as true now. But in I used to say for many years that in the nineties, if you wanted to work for the socialist in space, you'd work for NASA. And if you wanted to work for the capitalists, you work for the Russians. And I like to work for capitalists. So I was in Russia, and I was helping to, privatize the great, previously Soviet organization, Energia. As I said a moment ago, they they, you know, they did Gagarin.

Minor minor moments in space exploration history. They did Gagarin. They did Sputnik, the first woman, the first pictures from the the far side of the moon, the first space stations. And, during the time of, of, perestroika, or I haven't said that word in a while, perestroika, the the opening up and changing of the Soviet Union, the Soviets really commercialized 3 programs. The really, the only 3 programs they had which were world class. One was, the Bolshoi, the ballet.

Yeah. 1 was Aeroflot, and the third was their space program. And so the head of Energia was a crusty, Soviet, patriot called Yuri Semyonov, to be exact, Yuri Pavlovich Semyonov. And through a a series of things, including, at the request of Gerard O'Neill, the great space, pioneer visionary, I went to Russia and met with Energia. And, soon enough, long story, won't go into it now, they invited me to join and represent them in the states.

And after clearing it with the White House, no full eye from Ellenville, New York, I I got it in, I got a letter from the, first Bush White House. They couldn't endorse it, but saying how interesting that you're beginning to work with the Russian organization, and they're here. We wish you the best of luck. And so the reason I joined with them was Semyonov said to me, I wanna be a private company. I wanna be on a stock exchange.

I I want and this is a loyal, loyal Soviet slash Russian patriot of the nineties, early nineties, eighties. And and one of the things that, we began to say is Why did what you know? Simionov said I can't fly the europeans anymore to the mir space station the russian space station. I don't have the money I have to charge them Well, why not? Yeah, if space is another place to do business and you wanna go, to a place, you want a service, you pay for it. Now That's right.

Yeah. Now your motivation, that of the European nations, their motivation may have been political. They wanted to have good relations with Soviet Union slash Russia. But you, you're running a business. So mister Simeonov went and met with the Europeans, and I was present when he came back. And I don't remember the year. It's I don't know. I it would be like That's okay. I'm not a year person. I Yeah. But it's just Okay. It was a decade. It was a decade. Okay?

And, he came back, and he was he was triumph he came in. We were in his in his, the main office where around was this big wooden table where Karloff, the great designer of Anurag, had made the decision to do, Gagarin. So this was the famous table. And he came in, and he said slammed his fist on the table, and he said, we got it. The Europeans agreed. They're gonna pay us. They're gonna pay us to go to the space station.

Well, to my understanding, that was the first time that nation states said, when we do something with others, we will pay for it just like any other business. And the reason I was in that room was Dan Goldin, the then head of NASA, was in Moscow. And Semyonov, said to me, you know, I'm gonna do the same with the Americans. And I'm like, you know, go for it. And among certain people, this is a legendary meeting. Semyonov It sounds it sounds amazing.

Yeah. I I I'm gonna ask a side question we don't have to go into. Yeah. Do you speak Russian? Ochunplocha. Very poorly. Very Okay. But you and you understand Yes. I understand. Okay. So I just wanted to I I love the I love the the diversity of culture when you can understand someone else's language. Exactly. So much richness in Texas.

Yeah. I I really when I began to when I left the hotels and moved into a flat is really when in watching TV and, it really is when I begin I never took formal lessons. And and so You don't have to. I learned I learned Spanish because I met at 16 years old, I met this woman in Spain. Yes. That was the beginning of learnings and loving Spanish. I'm sure among other things. But okay. But you're interviewing me. I'm not interviewing you. So Right. So so we've got this fantastic moment in time.

Simeonov goes and meets, and, and NASA would never allow me at the meetings. They were very uncomfortable because I was American. They'd always make use of me. Okay. They were hypocrites at that time. They, you know, they'd call me up and say, okay, Jeff. What's happening here? But I wasn't allowed in the in the meetings. And, and so, they go into the meeting.

And as told by a number of people, including, Golden's aids, it's it's been in several books, Semyonov lays out that going forward because, what what, Clinton Clinton, Yeltsin had put in place is why not an audacious plan, why not have the shuttle visit the Mir? We called it Mir Shuttle. The Americans called it shuttle Mir. Okay. So, Sivanov goes in and says, I wanna be paid for that. And Golden says, what are you? A prostitute? What are you? You know? What are you?

Uh-uh-uh, you know, a a beggar? No. I'm not paying for this. And he he leaves storms out of the meeting and and goes across town and meets with the head of the Russian Space Agency, which was then 3 people. And the head of the Russian Space Agency says, sure. We'll do everything for nothing.

And and for several years, NASA try you know, it was one of the reasons why the Russians one of the reasons why the Russians got this bad press at that time because they couldn't uphold their commitments because the Americans weren't paying them. And newsflash for those of you who remember, newsflash for those of you who don't remember the late nineties, the Russians were broke. And they they had no money, and Semyonov was like, we I'm the implementer. My space agency is 3 people.

You wanna dock to the mirror? You want us to build a space station with you? I'm jumping. Give it to you. You have to pay us. You're the you're the capitalist. Right. I understand that. And and so pay us. So proud of Semyonov. I was so proud of Energia. And and about 5, 6 years after that, I was attending a conference, in Washington, and the head of international for NASA was speaking, who's a friend of mine, so I won't mention his name.

And, he said there was only one time in our history when NASA paid a foreign, organization, to do services. And he said, that was when we paid the Russians. And and I stood up and and, you know, it was like 200 people in the audience, and and he just he saw me. He said, you know, hell Manburs here, you know? And Right. Oh, no. Oh, no. So we could actually verify something. In the end, Massipate.

So we're sort of straying a little bit, but but the proper behavior of space agencies, in my view, began with the Russians. And it is a source that history is forgetting. In our in our wonderful time in America that we have in space the space program today, space exploration, we forget, we choose to forget that I believe passionately and and with confidence that it was the Russians who led the way, and it was the Russians who taught us, how you can make this a normal marketplace.

And I was involved with the European Bank of Reconstruction and other international organizations when Energia privatized. And as you may or may not know at the, turn of the century in 2000, I led a dutch company called Mircorp where we leased the Russian space station for 2 years, drove Dan Goldin berserk, Absolutely berserk. Okay? But we leased the russian space station that had been privatized. The government of russia privatized the mir, gave it to anirkya. I led a group of investors.

We kept it open for 2 years. We can talk more about that. But a lot of commercialization began with the Russians. And, unfortunately, today, Russian's returning to its normal, where space may be a normal place to do business for them, which is different from us, which is centralization, control from the Kremlin, not really allowing commercial companies and strategic assets. And so those days are gone in Russia.

So to to complete only 0.2, the right role of space agencies is to be a, a custom a custom. Fantastic. I love this. This is awesome. Okay. This this is this is amazing to hear because it's it's it's like closed door meetings that you're Yeah. You're hearing the story. Again, I'm gonna go back to Springland, which is right side of Ellenville Yeah. Yeah. Where my mom was from. Yeah. I'm going back to my grandmother in these stories that they would tell you that no one knew.

And they tell often on a deathbed or they tell it the last few years of, like, oh, remember this. That's not exactly how it happened. David, I I have never been compared to somebody's grandmother, so thank you. This is a undue honor for me. Thank you. You you drove brought you drove by Slaven's bungalow colony. Yes. That was my mom. Well, then I'm honored to be compared to your grandma. Well, you know you know what I'm talking about, Slade. I do that. I do that. Yeah. Yes. So, yeah.

So that's I I know the story. So, yeah, that's fantastic. This is this is amazing. I'm I'm I'm smiling because I I've not heard any of this. None of that in in the, you know, 5 years been doing this type of work. So fantastic. So so let's get to this next one because it's a it's a nice big shift. And is Elon Musk the reason for the excitement today? Or I I I'd love to hear your angle based upon what you've already we're we're learning something already.

Well, you know, I'm gonna deflate it a little bit. We don't have to spend too much on this because we've covered so much. And and I I put it in here for the reason because Elon Musk, of course, is is, he is the Elon Musk is the reason for the excitement in space. But for those of us in the industry, it's important to know that Elon Musk is taking advantage of everything that we have just been talking about, and that is the fundamental shift. Okay? Forgive me.

I mean, Elon, you know, is extraordinary, absolutely extraordinary what he's accomplished. But much of what SpaceX has done is as a contractor, as a contractor to NASA. I told you under the CRS, the Right. Commercial, resupply contract. And so, his success is due to his taking, winning a government contract and, and, take and and getting government money. And and he can do that he does it with a flare. Probably the only one close to him would be Richard Branson.

He does it with an extraordinary flare, extraordinary gift. But the point that is worth saying and and understanding is that he is not capitalizing SpaceX with his, personal money, though he has spent 100 of 1,000,000. But he's was able to do it and raise the money he has, raised because he has the government contracts. And I I've said this, in the book. I I think I said it with you. I'm writing a book called The Age of Infinite. Right.

One of the items that I have in there is that Elon Musk, as brilliant as he is in whatever he's done, his company, SpaceX, is government subsidized, if you wanna say Tesla Yes. Is government subsidized. And and the, and SolarCity is all being a a service or some type of connection to the US government. Well So Yeah. Same same thing here is he has he's servicing the US government. Without the government, it might be a whole different And so 30 years ago, there would be no Elon Musk. Okay?

30 years ago, there could be, you know, no Nanoracks because the government was not the customer. And as I just said, I think the first example that I know it is with the Russian American relations and and Yuri Semyonov. But so for me, and it's it's I'm not putting him down. It's like saying Einstein I know that. You know, Einstein I It was you know, Einstein is not good. Right? It's like saying Einstein wrote his theory because, he had thick glasses and the kids made fun of him.

So, I mean, it may have been true, and I don't think it is. I don't think he wore glasses. But just my point, I mean, you know, so Elon Musk, the exciting thing for me in the industry is that Elon Musk is the result of a change in policy that we have worked so hard since the eighties to to to realize. We were hopeful that an Elon Musk would come out of this. We were hopeful that a Bezos.

We were hopeful that companies, like Planet and Satellites and and, and all this explosion of launch vehicles could raise capital. And out of that, you get flamboyant entrepreneurs. You get, you know, steadfast entrepreneurs. You get imaginative. You may get shifty. You may get corrupt. So let me I I'm gonna take a I I have a question that's on my mind, and I will I'm gonna ask Skip. You might be planning on going over it of over this afterwards.

And, I think, as I've said, I don't even know what your outline is. So I we're working on on the fly on all of this.

My question comes down to what I've been hearing as a buzz is that I think there's a 116 launch companies that are now active in the space and are trying to promote themselves in the space industry that the that because of Elon's success and how quickly he's going through his backlog of orders, that with the ecosystem the way it is today, that there could be a real challenge because there's not as much business to fulfill that type of ecosystem. Well, we can, yes.

We can, now merge the, point of are we in a venture capital bubble. And so let's merge the 2 together. And and and, yes, there is an extraordinary amount of launch vehicles. And, when you unleash the imagination of the private sector, when you have a commercial marketplace, you you have these bursts in, in liquidity. You have these bursts in, technological advances.

So I just saw and and, again, here, I'm not in any way making fun or light, but I just read an article saying there's 2 rocket companies, announced in in the state of Maine. Good god, man. I mean, and I will say something terrible. In in the office of Nanoracks, a couple of the folks, You know, every time we learn about a new launch vehicle, you know, we sort of stand up and, you know, we salute or something. I mean, so, for there is no way.

There is no way that if Virgin Orbit flies 12 times a year, if Rocket Lab now value a valuation of $1,000,000,000 and they've done 3 missions, I believe, if they fly 12 or 14 times a year, if vector comes along, if if, if, the 3 d printing one, I forget now, comes along. And and, and at Nanoracks, we've deployed over 200 satellites from the space station, and we'll always have a niche from the space station. There's reasons for that. And so we continue to deploy grow and deploy, satellites.

And then you throw in India, the PSLV. You throw in the Russians. You throw in the French. Okay? You throw in the Chinese bursting onto the market. So let's say in in 4 years, you have 60, 70, missions a year. Does the market support it for satellite deployment? No. The answer is no. The answer is no. And so what will happen? Well, what usually happens in a commercial marketplace, it's like a forest fire. Okay?

Forest fire will sweep through the the industry, and the the haughtiest will survive, and we'll emerge stronger. At Nanoracks, we call ourselves a destination company. And and we won't really get into it tonight, but we're engaged. Not only are we the largest commercial user of this International Space Station, but we have significant serious plans to have our own platforms in different orbits over the next 5, 6, 7, 8 years. And part of the reason for that is all of these launch vehicles.

And and so we see the shakeout coming in 5, 6 years. We see margins coming down, price coming down per kilogram, and I wanna be the destination that takes raw materials for in space manufacturing or for tourists or whatever. So so we're in a bubble. And and I'll tell you and I'll I'll I'll be honest and say at Nanoracks, since we're a destination company, it's tough to raise money because we're not in the we're not in the launch vehicle business.

We're not in the satellite constellation business. We're not in the big data business. We're not in the earth observation business. And so, I I watch with some envy, but, you know, Yeah. Elon is part of the reason for this. He's attracted just as the Beatles, you know, spawned how many rock groups. And, and only here it's different. So I think we we've, I'll say, for the interest of time, I'm delighted to say I think we covered 2 points there.

Yeah. Well, the, first of all, you could be as I have a company, we did computational social science, artificial intelligence, machine learning, all sorts of things. You could be in the big data business. You could be, positioning yourself on the on the raise differently. Mhmm. And while you're using the terminology that you're using that says your destination, there's there's a lot more underlying activity that could happen that could transform that. We could talk about that Okay.

At another time. But so, yes, it's a it's a I I'm glad you brought that or at least agreed with my Yes. Indeed. Assessment that there there were it's a $330,000,000,000 industry. We just saw 2 major companies, planetary and, Deep Space, both fold with, tens of 1,000,000 of dollars invested. Yeah. And it it's going to get rid of the hype Yep. And get rid of those that really can deliver on the the promise and run their business accordingly. So fantastic.

And and and that kind of if I may be the director here and suggest that okay. That's, that it segs into I think I said one of the points is, something along the lines. I don't know exactly what I said to you, but my biggest fear. Yeah. You said the biggest fear, and then I didn't get to catch the rest of your Yeah. Your biggest fear. And I when you said that, I said, okay.

I really wanna hear this because you've been involved in this industry as, as one of the I'm not gonna call it the pioneer, but I sound like an old man. Yeah. But for a long time. Yeah. You did. So 10 minutes ago, you compared me to your grandmother. And so they and so Well, my grandmother passed. Okay. She passed. So I'm I'm going I I do think you're older than me. I'm 55. Yes. I'm older than you. I'm a pioneer. I thought you were. I'm a pioneer. Yes, sir. You're a pioneer.

So so, so so yes, grandpa. Yeah. So so the biggest fear, and look. I remember, speaking of age, and I remember during the time of Apollo when, there were huge protests in America over the, use of taxpayer funds for the lunar program given the the poverty in the Americas' cities. And I remember I believe I I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's reverend Abernathy, because I a year or 2 ago, I read the reread the Norman Mailer book on on, I forget the name, the on Apollo. Wonderful book.

And, you know, you have people like reverend Abernathy, mobilizing and protesting. And when you see these documentaries today on the Apollo program as we hit 50 years, there's no mention. There was there was a large segment of our society, which recoiled at the expense. And so my fear today is based on that and slightly different. The political discussion in the country today is a lot on income inequality, and I happen to believe it's justified debate.

And and there is a perception that to be in the commercial space business today, you are older, you are white, and you are a billionaire. And that's bad. I mean, you know, what we're doing in space is extraordinary, and it's changing and has the potential to continue to change the lives of people here on the earth, ecological monitoring, you know, looking at the rainforest. We now do it from small satellites called cubesats or small satellites.

Companies like Spire, Planet, and dozens of others are monitoring the earth. And, and and there's so many cubesats being used for a study. Nanoracks deployed a European constellation called QB 50 monitoring, the upper atmosphere. There's a lot of good coming out of this.

And and yet, I worry that as we, debate, income inequality And and as Jeff Bezos, for example, gets more popular, and and, you you you know, he got into a public debate with, Bernie Sanders on on minimum wages and Amazon and and working conditions and his companies, that that for a large segment of our population, they will see this effort as, you know, the the, the the rulers, the the the ones with the purse strings, the the ones who gained the system and the ones who have the 1,000,000,000 and instead of spending it on on health care as jeff bezos is but, you know, and elon musk is devoting a lot of his life to renewable energy and electric cars, but the public perception in many ways is that bunch of white billionaires are doing this.

And I'll say that I was struck about a year ago in the rise in the, in the right wing papers or the the Republican and more conservative papers, I'm not sure of the correct terminology anymore, of this anger, this visceral anger against Elon Musk. And you described them the same way they do a moment ago without the anger. You said a lot of what he's doing in his business comes from the government, and there's a growing amount of the population that is angry about that.

And and and so I that's that's my biggest fear is that the more, the more it becomes a legitimate business, a commercial business, a time of when we can actually think about going forth and questioning who we are as a species and going out to the to the stars, We're going to really fall prey. Is this a rich man's game? The on my end, in terms of the United States government being a a customer, just to be clear, and I'm not saying for you.

I'm just saying it in general, is that I it doesn't matter to me. That's how he built his business, and I Yeah. Applaud him for for taking advantage of an opportunity in a local market. But others are taking that as well as pipe. Right. Others are taking that same data point and saying And looking at this is like the Obama people. You know, when Obama gave money to to this group, it's all inside. You gotta be inside the system. And and, I felt it a little bit.

And and and Well well, that but that is a that is a political challenge that we're struggling with around the world, whether it be Brexit or whether it be the German, view of the EU as it's converting today. Yeah. This is a this is a global phenomenon where I think, to some degree, the visibility, the transparency, but the lack of media attention, and all of these challenges we're facing are starting to uncover, discover, identify, or amplify the challenges that we're facing.

Right. So I I like I like the point that you're making, but I'll take if I can take a little jump off of it. And this is where you and I might wanna have that conversation about what Project Moon Hut is about. Yeah. We want our narrative ends up transforming that thinking into something completely different. Meaning, if it becomes space and it's solely space, then it will be and will continue to be for a period of time that white male, billionaire. But there are others that are interested.

The Chinese, not as much in terms of the billionaires. But there that narrative is gonna continue, and what has to happen is that space has to become something different. Yes. It has to be climate change. I there's 6 in Project Moon Hunt. Climate change, mass extinction, social displacement, resource depletion, political unrest, and unintended consequences from some other things that I would go over another time. So Yeah. It's changing that narrative, and that's what Project Moon Hut is about.

Cool. It is exactly that. It's to change that narrative so that we expand the ecosystem of people who understand it and see the valuation in it. And that's why and you and I have not had this conversation, but I think you might have heard it at the event. I called it Mearth. Yeah. Moon and Earth. Yeah. Because we live within this environment called moon and Earth. So we'll we'll talk at another time, but I love not but. I do love how you've brought this down into your biggest fear.

Are there any other fears that you're getting Well that you have? Well, yes. There is another one tied to the same thing, which goes back to our shared New York roots. And and, it's a it's another facet of what I was just saying. And we're having this interview, to to date it, some weeks after, New York City and Queens specifically, booted out, the Amazon, proposal, to to have a headquarters or plant or whatever it was in in Queens. And so one of my fears is philosophical.

I I grew up in new york. I grew up my family had a, was restaurant at a restaurant And I worked in the restaurant did everything cook bartender, you know went to the then the fulton fish market bought fish And I I believe in the middle class and I believe it's one of the very unique things about this country is the middle class.

And, and and one of my worries is that, we're gonna go straight into commercialization, and the players will either be companies that have half a $1,000,000,000 in venture capital, which has dynamics of its own, or it will be led by Branson, Musk, and Bezos. And I'm very proud of what Nanoracks is. We're 70 people now. We're supported by customer revenue. And and, I worry that that, they will they just like in Europe. In Europe today, Nanorex has just opened an office in, Torino, Italy.

And one of the things we did was we wanted to find a strategic partner in Europe, bigger than us, but not terribly big. You know, we wanted someone like 600 people, 800 people, 1000 people. Can't find it. Doesn't exist. Okay? You have Airbus. You have and and in the space community, you have you have the smaller guys, and you have I mean, real small, 5 people, 10 people coming out of Berlin, coming out, beginning to see a little bit out of France, coming out, little pockets, in England.

But I said Europe, and who knows what England is? But, and and so and and and and and quite. You can't find. You have Airbus, Thales. You have the big players. You cannot find, a company of a 1000 people, and that worries me because that is where you have both still the imagination, the the the efficiencies of the still, what I would call, the entrepreneurial spirit, and you're not yet, you know, difference between a legacy company and entrepreneurial company.

And so I worry that space commercial space is going to go directly, like, so much of America today into the front you know, the big company, the box store. The you know?

Yeah. One person after an interview didn't share didn't wanna share it on the interview, and this individual said that the fear in this person's mind was that military, large corporations, Lockheed Martin, the the larger businesses will dominate this industry, and this new new space is they're calling it or individuals they're calling it will not get that growth because it's really gonna be dominated by the big players in the end anyway. Yeah. That's kind of what I was saying.

I will say that in my career, until recently, it was, some of the military folks that were the most creative. And, you know, they've for better or worse, they've certainly done some extraordinary things in space. And I and I don't disagree with that. I think her her I used the the perception was that there was a that because in the background, these are where the contracts go. Sure. Where the resources are. Exactly. That's true.

Make it tough for these smaller companies to be able to play in the space. And and yes. Absolutely true. And so, you know, yes. So that's that's a second fear that I have. My fear is no longer as much technological. My fear is no as much regulatory. I mean, there's something in our business called the Wolf Amendment that prohibits NASA from working with China. And 2 years ago, I was able to bring over onto the International Space Station the first commercial Chinese customer.

Even though there's a Wolf amendment, it was Beijing Institute of Technology on a fascinating synthetic DNA project. And so those aren't my worries now. It's the 2 that we just meant. The more sociological, the more, what is this?

On the one hand, I've spent 45 minutes with you, saying how much I've spent my career and my life, trying to make space another place to do business, and it's a normal marketplace where we we live in a time, justified or unjustified, where that may not be the best thing. And, yeah, and I think if if I I don't know if you would agree if I was to paint a picture of the world and you looked at space. You have all of this noise from Luxembourg and the Yeah.

European Space Agency, and you've got it from India, and you've got UAE, Russia. Yet when we look at Russia, I've been told by a person who isn't Russia that there's only 2 private space companies in all of Russia. Yes. And then I'm speaking at the Space Forum in Luxembourg in, I think it's May or something like that. And throughout the European Union, there is not a tremendous amount of real strong activity. You know, I think Lithuania is trying to get into the mix.

If you were to do a a size map where the bubbles are the size of how much the the United States still dominates Right. This entire And China's coming. China's coming. China's coming. Commercial. On a commercial. Is definitely coming. Yeah. On a commercial. So yeah. Yeah. On the and let's let's take the, the best moment. Okay. Yeah. That's a good way, I think, to to sort of wind it up. So I mentioned briefly I worked for, the Russians in the nineties. I worked for Nergia.

I headed up a company called Nergia USA, and I represented the Russians and and, Nergia. And it was a wonderful, fascinating time. We we, create we, the United States walked away from space station freedom, elected to to work with the Russians, and then it was very interesting. Few years later, I was involved, as I said, in a Dutch company called Mircorp.

And when I look at it's probably one of those moments, it was that, we we put 40 or something $1,000,000 on the table, and we leased the Russian space station Mir. And, to this day, it's about to end soon, I'm very happy to say, but MirCorp sponsored the world's 1st and right now only commercial crew. We sent 2 cosmonauts to the, abandoned Mir station, and we funded it for 70 something days. And it was extraordinary. There was a Why did the why did you go to the abandoned station?

We wanted to keep it. I mentioned you know, my career has been in space stations. The Russians were under pressure from the Americans to abandon the station so they would focus their national interest on, the International Space Station. Mister Semyonov had been given the space station by his government. He was now private. And he, behaving like a businessperson, wanted to raise capital and preserve the station.

And I am always in favor of preserving something in space, whether it's the Mir space station, whether it's cargo ships. We fill with garbage now in destroying the upper atmosphere, which tells you more of, everything you wanna know still about the industry today that we destroy perfectly good spacecraft, in space by stuffing them with garbage. And and so after they delivered the cargo to the space station, so, I was brought in. I didn't realize that. Yes. It's amazing.

When Orbital when Orbital, and the Russians with progress, send, cargo to the, and the Japanese, they send the cargo ships up. They're filled with supplies and experiments, and on some of them, Nanoracks is half the vehicle, like SpaceX or something. And, it gets to the station, and the astronauts, and when it docks, or as we also say, sometimes berths, it the astronauts unload the cargo.

And then and the news and the media covers all that, and there's, you know, chocolate, and there's presence, and there's science experiments. And then the media attention goes away, and the astronauts spend a couple weeks loading it with garbage. And they turn it around and destroy it. Now spacex is not. SpaceX has something called the Dragon, which lands, and that's how you get supplies down in the okay.

So so, and we at Nanoracks are working on ways that we can use those cargo ships after their time has passed. We call it the greening of the space program. Okay? So, it's just an extraordinary waste, but it says a lot about, how the mindset was when they created this architecture 25 years ago. So at NIRCORP, we came together to save the, station, and I I've written a book about it called selling peace. That was the, Mir is the Russian word for peace.

And, it's a interesting look at what it was like being an American sitting opposite NASA, during this time. And, so so the day of the, launch, here we are. There's a lot of public pressure. All the newspapers in the world were covering this, and, and we were ready for our launch. And I go to mission control in Russia, And I'm I'm nervous. I mean, you know, there's a lot of pressure saying don't do this Don't try and keep the station open.

And, they launch the the crew launches They get to the station and all the press is covering it. The media is on the cameras were right in my face I remember the moment. I was just so nervous. And, and the next day, they dock, and, they open the, hatch. And, they say we we come here for Amir Corp, and we thank them. And, they told me later, the crew, the the 2, cosmonauts, that it was just terrible. There was just, you know, stuff dripping.

And and, by the way, we learned a lot, we as a space faring people, on how to fix things and, because of the MIRCORP mission, because they got the Mir back up to health during their 70 days. But the the point, probably the best moment that I can recall, and I'd like to say so far the best moment in my career, was the next day, under the terms of the lease, we had a lease agreement with America that we would, like like any lease of an apartment.

We control the, mirror to the first coat of paint, we called it. And, that went on to international obligations. If anything went wrong with the Mir, it's the responsibility of the Russians. And, and but under the lease agreement that, once, the docking took place and the cosmonauts were inside the Mir, we were now the of the only space station in existence. And, so I was taken aside. I didn't know what was happening. So the the the the hatch opens. They say, we're here from MirCorp.

And then 2 men, Valerie Roman, Khosbanov, and, an important official with, with mister Semyonov, and, the head of mission control in, his name begins with an s. I can't remember it right now. So so, Ivanov or something. I'm off slightly. They take me aside, and we go into a side room.

And suddenly, they're extremely formal, and they say, mister Mandeville, under the terms of the lease agreement that has been signed between MirCorp and Energia, you are now in charge of the operation of the Mir space station. What are your orders? What do you mean what are my orders? So I'll back up for a second and say only a few people listening probably to remember That the mirror was the butt of jokes at that time.

It was, old there had been a leak on the station And, I will point out to you that recently there was a leak on the iss, but I won't go into that So anyway, there was a leak on the Mir station. Everybody was making fun of it. So these 2 men, these 2 leaders of the Russian space community, mister Mandeville, what are your orders? I'm thinking fast. I turn to, Valerie Roman. I say, mister Roman, being equally, formal, what is your suggestion?

And he said Yeah. Let's get some experiments going right away. Show things and all. We had about 80 experiments of Russian schools and some paying customers. And, and I turned to Solovano for something closer. And forgive me if he ever listens to this. I'm butchering his thing, but solov that's it. And, I say, what are your suggestions? He said we have to plug the leak. We can't really do anything. I'm not comfortable with our men up there. I wanna find that leak. I wanna plug it. I said, okay.

I said, let's do this. 24 hours, you look for the leak. 48. I said, I think I forget that. 48 hours, you look for the leak. Nothing but that. After 2 days, if you don't find it, let's do some simple experiments, and we'll announce it. And they said, very good. Now, even then, do I believe that they really listened to me? No. No. I mean, this is their space station. This their their they were veterans, but it was an extraordinary moment. It was just an extraordinary moment.

And I sort of like, hey. You know? I I'm in charge of the Mir space station. And and, you know, so it was and I learned so much. I'll I'll say I sort of finish here by saying a lot of what I've been able to do with Nanoracks, a lot of what I'll be able to do on any other space station I work with, I'll own at Nanoracks or if I ever work with the Chinese space station or whatever. I learned at that time.

I learned with the Russians, working with the, working with Miacorp on on how organic, how complex the space station is. It's filled with you have to worry about solar, flares and solar cycles. You have to worry about cargo ships and when they arrive. And it's it's an space stations have held my interest throughout my career. And so, anyway, that was the best moment when they just turned to me and said, you're in charge now. What are your orders? So that's it.

To have a to have a space station, circling around the globe sounds amazing. Right. Right. And having the American government, absolutely, upset with you, pissed at you in every step of the way. It was a transformational moment for me because I found what I was made of. And, and, when the mirror came down, it was forced down by the American government, but we had a 179,000,000 in backlog.

I signed with Mark Burnett of Survivor, still doing it, and NBC to do a game show where the winner would go to space and some other cool things. And had we survived, had we been able to go another year, we would have turned the corner. So it's it was it was a forgotten moment, and, and some folks are planning to do some media attention on it because it's the 20 year anniversary now. So, There's it's not forgotten now. Yes. There you go. It is is in Yeah. Etched in digital. There you go.

There you go. So So I I I remember it Yeah. I did my first. I was doing a series of podcasts, and one of my sons said to me at one point, you know, you'll last forever. And I what are you talking about? Yeah. This was back in the 2000. Yeah. We're doing Zig Ziglar and Tom Peters, all these interviews. And they said, well, these will last forever to be on the Internet for as long as there's an Internet. Yeah. Hadn't thought about it. Yeah. I see it as about about 5 years ago.

Woman calls me up and says, we're NASA history, the archives. We'd like to do an interview with you. I gave it no thought. No thought. I went in. I did the interview. I can't tell you, but every 2 months, a writer or someone calls me up and says, I was reviewing your interview in the NASA archives. So let's hope this is the same and it adds to the This will be a lot bigger. You're we're we're getting traction more and more.

Hopefully, with you, we'll find some more interviews that'll be powerful, that'll help transform. And I think that what I've heard from you is you wanna make sure that we get over that camel's Yes. Hump. Indeed. So that we can make it. And we need this type of activity, people like you willing to come on our program, so that we can explore, understand, and help individuals, including myself.

And that's the reason I do this too is so that we can understand what's necessary to move us into the to the next frontier of space development. So Yeah. Jeffrey, this is fantastic. This is amazing. I loved every moment of it. It was exciting to hear. I hope you had the same feeling too as you were reliving some of these, experiences and and sharing some of your thoughts. Yes. I've enjoyed it tremendously, and, I forgive you for making, for making me do what I would call, the questions.

Homework. And, yes, homework. So thank you very much. And Well, because you brought it up, I have to with all the interviews I've done, Jeffrey, and there's been a 180 over the the years. I do the exact same format. There's no different, but you're the 1st person to write back questions to me that I should ask you. Like, okay. Maybe he really doesn't get this. Nope. So, no, this is a it's a dialogue across the table and you've come up with a few points and you talk about it.

And you did brilliantly. Good. I mean, this is you gave some insight that I don't think anybody I think many of the people that you and I both know have never heard these stories Good. In this way or these thoughts. Good. Good. Well, thank you. Appreciate it, David. Thank you. Yeah. It was fantastic. So for everybody who is listening, please pay attention to the age of infinite and pass it along to other individuals to let them share and learn. This is not just the space industry vehicle.

It's a tool to help the populace understand what's going on because this is an industry, it's a market, yet it also has potential to change how we live on earth for all species, meaning there's infinite possibilities. We expand from just earth into space and then from space into the resources on the moon or however you would like to view it.

And there's there's a be a lot more content coming out in that direction so that you'll be able to understand more of what we're trying to do, which I mentioned earlier in the program. So you can go to projectmoonhot.org. We are updating the site. This is in real time, but we're really trying to update and move. We're also writing a book called The Age of Infinite to kind of bring this information together, and we'll have that out soon.

You can go to facebook, dotcomprojectmoonhot forward slash project moonhut. You can connect with us at project moonhut on Twitter, and you can email me at [email protected]@projectmoonhut.org. So thank you for listening in. This was a brilliant conversation. Again, thank you for the time, Jeffrey, and I'm David Goldsmith. Thank you for listening.