Hello, everybody. This is David Goldsmith, and welcome to the Age of Infinite. Throughout history, humans have made significant transformational changes, which in turn led to the renaming of periods into ages. You've personally just lived through the information age, and what a ride it's been. Now consider that you might right now be living through a transitional period to the age of infinite.
An age that is not defined by scarcity and abundance, but by redefined into a lifestyle considering consisting of infinite possibilities and resources. The ingredients for an amazing sci fi story has come to life as together we create a new definition of yours, our future.
The podcast is brought to you by the Project Moon Hut Foundation where we look to establish a box with a roof and a door on the moon, a moon hut, we were named by NASA, through the accelerated development of an earth and space based ecosystem. Then to use the endeavors, the paradigm shifting thinking, and the innovations and turn them back on Earth to improve how we live on Earth for all species. Today, we're going to be exploring a fantastic topic.
It is mapping out space traits to create choice. And we've got with us, Ohed Harlev. How are you, Ohed? Thank you. Great. Oh, before I give you the introduction or his sharp background, which everybody knows is short. In all the years of history, we've never been approached by a PR company who was looking to have someone be interviewed. And a few months ago, I received this email that they have a client that they'd like to see if they can get on the podcast.
And through a series of events, the 2 of us, Ohad and myself, have become friends, and it's been a a nice experience to have gotten to know him. And so here's a little background. I'm we never give a lot, but he's the former CEO of Lightloop and has been involved in the productization and commercialization in the space industry for over 15 years. I I know we're gonna have a lot of we're going to get a lot of value out of this experience. So, Ohed, do you have a outline for us? I do.
And, again, I wanted to say thank you. This is so exciting. I really, enjoyed our conversations, and it's been amazing to get to know you. But since this is a surprise, I'll start with my topics. Okay. I want to start with, the topics I'm running going to try to, discuss today are what are the current uses of space? Okay. What what are the current Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. What are the current uses of space? Next. Number 2. What are the current explorable traits of space?
Explorable, explorable Traits. Traits? Yes. Yep. Okay. New applications that we can build using these traits. We can build using these traits. And the next. Is it just about space or also about other celestial bodies, I. E, moons, Mars, etcetera? There. Terrestrial bodies. And the last topic I usually, I wanna call it, if they if you build it, they will come. That's so so amazing. They will come.
Okay. So let's start with number just, for those of you listening in, it's it's you've probably heard this before. I write these down. I've never heard them before. I don't know what the bullet points are, so that's why it takes a few moments to get them so that we're all learning together. So let's get back to it. Number 1 is, what are the current uses of space? Good. So as we all know, when people say space, then, of course, there's a space exploration part of it.
NASA, astronauts, International Space Station, beforehand, put MIR, etcetera, moon exploration. But, primarily, today, space is used for commercial reasons. And when you say commercial reasons, vast majority of the space industry is still communications, earth observation, weather, and GPS. Yep. When I say major, that's where most of the effort is. That's where most of the, money is deployed, and that's been around for, I wanna say, decades.
Some people will say, you can't say 30 40 years is a is a decade. It's been around for a very long time. It's been as it's been around as long as there's been space. That's our focus. It's been, all of the 4 that you've spoken about. So I I definitely agree. And then people usually say, yeah. But you missed the biggest one of all. And I say, have I? And the answer is yes. But I'll launch. Look at SpaceX. So everybody that's the best known private space company in the world.
You haven't mentioned launch. I said, that's right. But I haven't mentioned also building satellites. Yeah. I haven't meant and I haven't mentioned the guy who is bulldozing a brand new space port in New Zealand. Yeah. There's a lot of space port You said current uses, not infrastructure.
Bingo. So I wanna focus for a second and while we're talking in the next couple of minutes or hour about once we get to space, what do we do there or how we can we use it better, not how to get there, how to get there more efficiently, and how to later on use the data or whatever we're getting from space, data, materials, assets. How do we use them? Well, that'll come in later. For now, we're just talking about we've got out of how do we use space?
Okay. For those who do not know, we need to get Wait. Wait. Wait. Yes? Just remember. You're just talking to me. Yeah. Okay. You said for those of you who do not know. I I speak even when I speak with myself. Yes. So you've got challenges. We're not gonna fix that today. No. Okay. So, when you said once we get you get used to space, better data materials assets. Okay. Got it. If you go to, when you said, oh, well, I'm familiar with all those four elements.
Mhmm. It's about money at the end of the day. And people say, well, how much money is the space industry? And space entry is big. It all depends on how you wanna count it. If you wanna count, launch, if you wanna count the all components that people are actually building in order to put in satellites Mhmm.
And if you wanna count count in all the revenue from every member in DISH Networks or any other satellite operator that gives TV service to the home, then we talk about 100 of 1,000,000,000 of dollars. Right. But the but my question is always the space economy, from my point of view, is what are we doing? How much GDP or how much are we actually doing in space?
Because if today we are doing in space 20 or $30,000,000,000 and that sustains a $260,000,000,000 industry, if we increase the amount that we're doing in space, then we're increasing the infrastructure to create those dollars. So you use the number 20 to 30,000,000,000 as the what? As what's created as as the actual revenue of real activities in space.
And the way I got to that 20 to 30,000,000,000 is that communication, which is the biggest kind of a moneymaker in space, is approximately 17 to $18,000,000,000 of revenue per year. That's what the satellite operators of every kind, mobile satellite services, fixed satellite services, TV, etcetera, everything. That's about That's that's all of it? Wow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So but that's the that's the infrastructure in space is what the services That's the services. But it's not the annual revenue.
That's the annual revenue. Okay. Now if you add to that Earth observation, which is in its infancy, but it is making money, you add to that GPS. You add to that commercial revenue from the ISS, from experiments, soon to be, space tourism, space pharma, which is, again, in the infancy. You add all these infancies together. A lot of this is not public information, so I don't have access to it. But I'm assuming it's between single digit it's in the single digit 1,000,000 of dollars.
And that's why I said, I take the 18, I add couple single single digits. I get between 20 to 30. Yep. Okay. Yeah. But that industry, that 20 to 30 is actually supporting a $260,000,000 of economy. 260,000,000,000, which is Yep. Building satellite, launching them, testing them, earth stations, ground infrastructure, antennas, etcetera.
If we use that scenario of give or take a 10 to 1, that means that if we're able to get an extra $1,000,000,000 of space revenue, maybe we'll be able to get an extra $10,000,000,000 in the space economy. So for every 1,000,000,000 we put in, you're saying that we're gonna get 10,000,000,000 on the on the earth side of the equation? Surrounding. And and that's The surrounding. My yeah.
But you you so the the challenge that I'm having because of the way you're phrasing it more than anything is we first got the infrastructure that's in space, then we've got the surrounding, but you take the surrounding and you also ink you you're you talk about the building no. You're building, launching the ground infrastructure.
But within the earth observation and and the fees that people pay for GPS, so the fees that people pay for doing, supporting the infrastructure that helps UPS be able to make its deliveries the way they do? Mhmm. That's wouldn't that be larger? Wouldn't there be a 3rd tier? Oh, that's the impacted tier. Yes. Absolutely. There's the space impact of what is impacted in our day to day if there is no space. So one is space let's call it space economy, what's going on in space. Sorry.
Space, commerce, which is what's going on in space. 2nd is the space economy. And 3rd, what is impacted by space? And to be honest, in today's world, I think nearly everything's affected from the ATM that needs, the time from the GPS system to, every TV service, every cell company, every company in the world, every nearly every every phone call goes. So Well, every every Zoom call goes through space.
Yeah. So you need to effectively the the part of the economy, global GDP that's actually being touched by space is huge. But The the way I kind of I say this to individuals, if you live in a tier 4 and a country, tier 1 is you don't have any infrastructure. You don't you this is the lack of most, I wanna say, the tier tier 1 is the bottom. Tier 2 is you might have a refrigerator. You might have a bike. Tier 3 is you have a home, a sofa. You have a car.
You might have and then tier 4 is where we, in where you and I are living. Mhmm. You have a home. You have this infrastructure. And in tier 4, you can't live a day. Mhmm. You can't live a day without space touching you. I would say you can't live an hour. Well Yeah. Okay. I I'm holding a mouse every so often, and a mouse comes from space technology. So Yeah. Yes. So Okay. I'm assuming that everything we do and, and moreover, everything we will do in 5 years will be related to space Okay.
Some way or way, shape, or form. I agree with you. And, therefore, I'm saying if we can increase the amount of, what about, space revenue, we'll we will increase this the space economy. So you're you're looking at driving that bottom number? Yes. That's that's an interesting take because I'd never thought I hadn't thought about it from that angle. I'd always come at it from the side of growing the the bigger ecosystem. And you're saying, grow this 1 20 to 30.
Add a 1000000000, you add 10,000,000,000. So if we go from 30,000,000,000 to 40,000,000,000, we've just increased our entire ecosystem by yeah. We're we're going another well, every 100 every 10,000,000,000 is a 100 is a is a 100,000,000,000. 100,000,000,000. Yes. Correct. Yeah. Okay. Mhmm. That makes sense. It's logical. I agree. Yeah. And you add a 1,000,000,000 here, a 1,000,000,000 there. It pretty soon ends up real money. Yes. So that's the way I'm looking at the current use of space.
And, again, everybody's familiar oh, I'm familiar with the way that space is used. And even people that don't know how space is used, they use it anyway. Oh, yeah. But the question that I keep on asking myself, and I've been asking this probably since when I first joined a space company and someone said I wasn't a space guy. I was an engineer. I was on the commercial side.
Someone said, I don't wanna touch a customer or touch a in a a contract or touch anything before you understand what we actually do. And for the 1st month, he just sent me to send teleports and speak with engineers. And when I came back, he literally tested me, gave me a test to see that I know what's going on. And then he explained that I know because I was looking at the technical and not on the fundamental of how do we that company was making money out of putting satellites in space.
It's a I I I Isn't that so amazingly frustrating that they in that people I run into Mhmm. All the time. If you don't ask or wanna push, if you don't understand what rocket is going up, if you don't know about this one launch or if you don't know about this one company, you are not capable of working in the space industry. So, yes, I've seen that. But I was very privileged with this specific guy who was my first CEO and in the space industry, and he didn't care.
Although he knew everything and anything, he was you know, he still is part of the space industry, that, he didn't really care that I knew what what nut and bolt was connected to how and what but he wanted me to understand the basic physics, the basic commercial, the basic concepts. That's what he cared about. He didn't care about which satellites went on which rocket or which who's the manufacturer of the satellite. He cared about what does a satellite do. Okay. So so you name 3.
You use physics, commercial, and concepts. Yes. So give me because I wanna hear what you learned. Give me from that time frame, what are the 1, 2, or 3 physics, so 1, 2, or 3 commercial, and the 1, 2, or 3 concepts. Sure. So I that time, I was a lawyer, and I came from I'm sorry. Real estate. I know. I know. Everybody but it's fine. I'm I'm in I went through rehab, and I'm fine. And, so what I learned was the following. We were in satellite communication.
Okay. And at the end of the day, I said I learned the following. A satellite is really a building. It's a commercial building in a certain location, and you are leasing out floors. Some companies are leasing out the entire building. Some people are leasing out the floors. Some people are leasing out roofs, I e, WeWorks. You have if you want a location in that building, you buy it based on the term. The longer the term, the the, short the bigger discount you get.
Mhmm. And so that's the commercial side, literally. A satellite is just a building. You just need to allocate frequencies. That that's a I I love that you started with that one. I we both know Yossi Amin. I was in, in SpacePharma in Herzliya, Israel. And he showed me one of their CubeSats. Mhmm. And he said, in the top we do, the it's only what is it? 30, 40. It's, 50 centimeters long. I don't know the exact length.
And he said to me, this portion does this, this portion does this, and this portion does this. And he said, in the bottom here, we have a laboratory. Now the way you look at a laboratory probably is a bunch of people walking around with jackets. Mhmm. And, and they've got beakers and all sorts of things. But in here is a micro version of a laboratory. This does the same thing, but all robotic and automated. Mhmm. And I was, oh, so that's a laboratory in space with a different definition.
So you just described that, which is great. Thank you. That's number 1. What's the number 2 then? A satellite is basically a mirror. It takes the signal that is being dug to him to it and download and send it back at a pre predefined angle to a what is to a preset footprint to a certain area in the Earth that it's supposed to damage. So it's literally like you were playing as a kid with a mirror to shine light where you want it to go. Okay. Alright. Number is there another one under that?
Physics? Number 3 yeah. Number 3 sorry. Number 2 for physics is depending on your application and how you need if you wanna move, if you don't wanna move, if if how stable you need the service, you choose the applicable radio frequency band, which means it's not one size fit all fits all. You've got to say, this is my application. An expert will tell you you need to use all band a, all band b. Because of legal legal constraints or No. Because of physics. Because of physics.
Okay. So, for example, everybody used to use c band. Okay? That's that's awesome. If you wanna go for an MSS to a mobile satellite service application, you wanna go to maritime in the middle of the sea, lots of moisture, lots of storms, l band will give you a much better service. If you wanna use Ku, c band is still good. But if you wanna use, for example, whatever you're moving to Ku or some extent, Ka, not as good. So if you wanna go for maritime, stability is important to you, go with l band.
If you wanna go maritime and you wanna go with high bandwidth, go with k a. I don't know these things, but someone who's But you but you unders you understood that someone has to make a choice Correct. As to the type of frequency used to optimize whatever type of product services you're offering in space. Okay. Great. Thank you. Yep. So that's the 2 key physics. Let's call it that way. Yep. And then we talked about commercial, how to explain it Yeah. Which is pretty simple.
That everybody knows how to rent a building and lease it out. Mhmm. And then last thing he he mentioned, and I know it's not very, very unique space, but it is related to number 1 and number 2. Mhmm. And that is it's all about customer needs. In order to really tailor the right building in the right location, you've got to understand what the customer is looking out of the service. Because most people say, all I care about is connectivity. I wanna be connected. But what does that mean?
Does that mean are you moving 247? Do you have peaks in your use? There are so many questions that a customer doesn't think of. It doesn't matter if it's communication, Earth observation, the same thing. How often do you need the pictures? What kind of resolution do you need the pictures? Do you need it in bad weather? Do you need changes? If you ask a very specific set of questions per industry, you can then tailor the solution.
Because in today's satellite, there is a lot of flexibility, and you've got to choose the right solution for the right problem. And the customers think they know, but they need guidance not in what they need, but in the right questions to ask them so they will tell you what they need.
Yeah. It's an exploratory discovery to figure out which is the optimum way to be able to create the piece of property in space and connect to whatever type of application that's out there so that they can do their work and you can and the satellite, the company could do its own. Yes. Okay. That's cool. Those those are great. Those are really good. Okay. So let's continue on then, I guess, from you talked about speaking, he he told you that you needed to spend this time. You needed to learn.
He came back. He tested you about the fundamentals of space. So where did you go with this? So based on that, I figured out that communication was great. And this, again, was 13, 14, yeah, years ago. But pretty soon, I figured out to myself, I wasn't relevant for that company, was that people are primarily using it for spec for for communications. But when I really dig down into if I wanna break down space, it's not just about what band do I need for satellites.
Then there are other questions out there that are a lot more fundamental. Because if I ask just that question, mobility, sustainability, issues with weather, etcetera, I'm still focusing only on communications. Maybe I need to ask different questions of different customers, and maybe space can give that solution. Mhmm. So, for example, let's take and I'm I'll move sec in a second to traits. But one of the biggest advantages that the communication industry uses space for is coverage.
From one point in space and geo, you can see a very, very large area of the earth. Now people are looking that as footprints, whatever. But if we break it down just one the extra level, space gives us coverage. How can you use that coverage for other applications? So people are saying, oh, wait. Well, that's not a communication thing. That's weather. You put a weather satellite, you can see a lot more. Fair enough. You can also earth observation. Fair enough.
But for that thing to happen, you've got to go, as I said, go one level below and say, the basic trait that communication is using is the ability to see from one point a huge coverage. So the actual trait here is coverage. And we can condone down and then really analyze what are the traits, the basic basic traits of space that will enable us to increase this the, the the the field. So I and I don't know if this is an exact parallel.
What I have learned is that if you're in the International Space Station, which is at low earth orbit Mhmm. Project moon, we try not to use abbreviations because not everybody knows what they mean. So on the International Space Station, you can see 1 11th of the earth 1 11th of the earth at all times. How do you define coverage? Is there is there a a chart? Is there a way you can analyze it from low earth orbit, medium earth orbit, high earth orbit? How do you you define this word coverage?
So coverage in my mind is well, first of all, let's talk about things that it what are the factors that define coverage? So what define coverage is, are you stationary, or are you moving? What is the altitude? What are the what is the how would I put it? What is the sorry. What is the altitude? What is the angle of view or field of regard to the same 2 same contact? Yeah. And what are you using as your sensors?
Meaning, when you said the International Space Station, then when you can see an 11th of the earth, your sensor is the astronaut's eyes Mhmm. In which have a certain view field of view, which is very, very wide. If, however, you're using a, RF transmitter, it has a certain field of view of regulatory, but it is narrower than our eyes. So coverage is depends on the applicable sensor, whatever it is, a physical sensor, eyes, comb, radar, etcetera, cameras, altitude, and coverage can be moving.
So as you said, from the International Space Station, you will only see 11th of the Earth at end time, but now it's a different 11th. And now it's a different 11th. It's interesting. As soon as you started going through it, I'm saying, oh my I made a huge mistake in my assumption when you used the word coverage. I was thinking broad instead of thinking which we've, the the concept of being geosynchronous with the Earth. Mhmm. So that I had I wasn't didn't even go there.
So you're talking about whether it stays with a certain location on the Earth. Mhmm. So that that piece of a piece of coverage is always covered as compared to moving Mhmm. So that it can see different types of, surface areas or it could track or it can. So, yeah, once you use the word coverage and change it to be a more expansive type of modality, you've got so many more options. Yeah. So if we wanna go for a second for this basic traits that I think are and, again, I'm sure there are dozens.
So what what are the current explorable traits? Is that where we're on? We're moving to 2? Yes. Okay. We're going to 2. Just remember, I'm taking notes, so it helps to put my notes in and know where we are. Okay? Sure. What are the current go ahead. So one is we said about I I will start with this. You know, I I already mentioned my biggest, dirty secret, which was I used to be a lawyer, and every lawyer uses therefore and disclaimer.
So my first disclaimer is that, this is a very non exclusive list. These are what I think are the key, and I'm sure others will think that, one, I'm wrong. 2, that I missed one of the biggest ones. And the answer is whoever thinks that, if you think better, I'm wrong. I'm I'm I'm absolutely with you. I'm sure that I missed one of the biggest ones.
I'm I'm hoping that just like you as the word coverage that something comes up in my head that will help us with the project Moon Hut and moving us forward. So, yeah, this is great. So I I take your disclaimer. I take your disclaimer. I take your therefore, and then we can move on. I signed And you and you and you raised it and and you raised me with Grabbit. Right. And and I actually put my signature next to it. So there's a little mark. I put my initials so that we've we're all perfect here.
Okay. Great. So the key traits that I've identified is and we'll I'll I'll just list them for a second then deep dive into each one of them. We said Yep. Coverage, lack of gravity, which could be micro or nonexistent depending on location, vacuum, distance, temperature, and legal framework.
Those are the key traits so that, I think if we can use 1 or more, then we could start building new applications and new ways to use space that are, 1, not only very useful to us, hopefully useful to the economy, maybe even useful to science. But if we increase the echoes, as we said, it's all about every dollar you enter into one place, then it will increase the entire chain effect. Yep. So I think the most common one everybody's using it, you mentioned, you know, pharma, microgravity.
There are endless applications. So so we just figured coverage. We're going to lack of gravity, and we're gonna cover the micro and is that what we're doing? Is this number 2? Well no. Yeah. We'll we'll yeah. Exactly. Okay. So So one has already been done in the last one, which I got, and now we're going to 2. So just okay. Correct. Thank you. So let me mark them. That way, I won't re re visit them. No. No. It's okay if you do. Often, we go in and out.
It's just that you've given some great information, and Yeah. I'm I'm sucking it in. I wanna make sure that I I don't miss anything. So my so we don't we don't miss. Yeah. No. I may go back to coverage for a second. Inherently. Yep. I actually put a note here for coverage. So there's there's plenty of space for it. But lack of gravity, so we're trying microgravity at the moment.
Yeah. So microgravity, there are multiple and and I must admit that the actual application of microgravity is more, chemistry and biology, which which are not my area. I'm a bit strong a bit stronger with, physics. But we see that there are a lot of medicines, a lot of plants, a lot of human cells, and a lot of regular standard manufacturing, such as zblend fibers. Zblend fibers fiber optic cable that can only be manufactured in micro or zero gravity. Really? Oh oh, yeah.
So, for example, if we took ZBLAN, ZBLAN one of the biggest problems with a regular fiber optic that's been you know, the entire world has been dug up. One of the biggest problem with, like, with fiber optics is, loss. Every kilometer, you lose x dB. Loss is measured in dB. Yeah. If you're able to produce a different material that has loss, you will use you will need less amplifiers, less repeaters, less power. Everything's much better.
The only problem is you need a better material, which is not only better. It has to be cost effective. It has to be available. So so far, they have identified a material called zblan, and that is, you can get literally under a 10th 10 percent of the loss. So a signal will go 10 times fast 10 times longer before you need to reamplify it. The only problem is you can create it with tens of meters each time at in the International Space Station. That's where they're manufacturing it.
It's a experiment. So there's there's a manufacturing plant at the International Space Station. They've done a couple of experiments, and they've actually manufactured deep band fibers, single mid single digit, meters in it. Yeah. Okay. So they're not it's not a plant. It's a testing bed where they're creating a certain length to be able to utilize, but they're not producing kilometers of this cable. Not yet. Okay. Not yet.
And and just just for my knowledge, how is it spelled z blan z z b l a n. Okay. That's what I wrote. Yeah. Okay. So there are certain things that you can literally just build or or manufacture or grow in space. And I'm sure that for everything I mentioned now, I've missed 10 areas because as I said, biology biology is not my area. Not that physics is but biology is not chemistry. But I see the huge amount of endeavors in this field.
And, again, as a guy who comes from the economic side, I usually say that if someone does something in a commercial company, there is a commercial application for it, which means there is a need. So we've we've had Stephanie Countryman do a podcast, and she did it on, biology experiments dealing with insects and animals that stay have done in space. We've had again, I brought him up earlier. We've, Yossi Amin has been on. He's talked about a little biology that's being done.
So wherever you can fill in, you're giving a whole different angle by going towards the materials, material sciences, and that's great too. So wherever you can give me and us some understanding, that's fantastic. Okay. So, so we there is a lot of materials. Again, physical materials such as, fiber optics and others that you, you know, you can use a trait of, let's call it, microgravity, to build these things. Now you need to have a chemist or a physicist sit down and see what can I do?
Like, a lot of material by the way, the actual, re the the biggest, researcher in the field, is done out of USC, and they're the ones who are actually, in cooperation with NASA to build the Zipline on the space station. So, if we we're staying at the trait level, we'll talk about applications in a second, in the next bullet. And then the first trait is microgravity, which is low which is clear. That's the second, actually. The first one was coverage. The second one was gravity.
3rd trait, when you use I wanna I wanna jump Yeah. Because you said microgravity and no gravity. Yeah. So can you give an example of a no gravity application? A no gravity application. Because you said there's micro, and then you said there's no gravity. Correct. So is there one that we've found already, or are we just saying that I'm not aware of anyone.
I'm not aware of any application so far that is using zero gravity as as a trade that's needed, but it is a resource that if someone needs that kind of environment, you can create it on Earth at a huge cost or get it in space. The Maybe getting it is cheaper. The one and and that's okay that we don't have one yet.
The I think the most amazing piece of information that I learned from Yossi was a combination of his website and talking with him just I don't know if we shared it as much on the podcast. He had shared when you're creating a molecule on earth and you it starts to form. Gravity will pull down the creation of that molecule. There's a force of gravity. And that when you go up into space, you can create a molecule and because there's no gravity, the the atoms can form in structures.
They can get to where they need to be without being pulled down. And once you get, say, a cylindrical structure, you can put in a keystone, you could put in a pin, it will hold it all together, then you could bring that molecule back down to Earth and replicate it on Earth because now you have a a one off a modular piece that you could work with.
And that that kind of construct of understanding that we're not talking about microgravity doing, but what it does is it enables the ability to be able to form structures that gravity would pull it apart just because there's gravity. Does that make sense what I say to it? It's it's a 100%. That's exactly you just said what I I told you that in advance, and you just copied word for word for what I said earlier. Yes. Glad that I'm listening. But we haven't found we Perfect.
So the difference between aware of. The microgravity and zero gravity are probably my guess is going to be there's gonna be more of a difference between gravity on Earth and the microgravity than there is going to be gravity and not microgravity and 0. It's that that that little extra might not do as much as just the fact that we're in a microgravity environment. Not at all. You're a 100% correct.
The extra is very incredibly significant, and take into account that physics wise, there's always a something pulling you. Okay? So it diminishes. And to get to 0, it's very hard. But for some applications, that may be important. It's just something that we need to think of. The interesting the interesting thing is, in my mind, I'm just very quickly going, is we've got earth. We've got atmosphere. We got low earth orbit, medium in the north orbit, higher earth orbit.
Then we have the space between and this, the space between the earth and then the orbit and a little bit of atmosphere around the moon, and then we have the moon. And that's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 on the project moon, our classification system. But reality between these two structs, these two entities, there is no zero gravity. No. Of course not. Point has, but there's still a pull. The only way to get to 0 Mhmm. Would be and, actually, it might be because you've got the sun's gravity.
Yeah. To to you're always gonna have a celestial gravitational pull someplace. So I agree. I I'm you know, I I will stand correct. I'm not sure that 0, but it is the the micro part will go will diminish. Correct. And that's what that's what I was trying to get at because I couldn't make get my mind around where we would get to 0, and now walking it through with you, I can see that. We'll always have a gravitational pull. It's is it becomes down to in your structure, the traits.
Maybe at at low low earth, low earth orbit, you get one type of microgravity where medium will give you an application to create, and I'm just making this up, a better z band z band. Mhmm. And then if you can get you can get a little further out, you might be able to get instead of 10 x, you might be able to get 13 x because you can create a different molecule or a different structure. Okay. Yep. So you you're you're right. I I will create it will never go to 0, but it will go better.
It will go lower. Right. It's a it's a long tail. You've got this Very, very long tail. You've got this you've got very high on earth, and then you go to 1 6th in the moon, but you're still not at 0. You and then in between, you've got relatively relative different variations between. Perfect. Got it. Okay. So the next one, gravity, a vacuum. Vacuum. So there are a lot of applications that need vacuum, and you are creating vacuum on earth. And creating vacuum is expensive. I'll give an example.
Laser communications. Atmosphere is very powerful for laser communication. If you want very long range laser communications on earth when you say very long laser communications on earth, if you're an amazing setup, you can get tens of kilometers. 50, 60, 70 kilometers. Let's agree that it's sub 100 kilometers, and that's an optimal scenario. However, in space, you can have laser links that will if you have a big enough aperture or a big enough mirror or receiver, you can go forever.
Effectively for tens of thou sorry, for 100 of 1000 of kilometers, there has been a communication between AlphaSat and the moon and back, which is give or take 384 minus 36 because it was in geostationary orbit. So 350,000 kilometer, and it can go way, way, way lower. So That's that's because there's no atmosphere. There's nothing interfering with the laser. Correct. Therefore, the laser can continuously go, with because it's not running into any particles. Yes. There's no Correct. Correct.
There's no water. There's no whatever. There's no, moisture. There's no oil that really affects. So the third trait is vacuum. We'll talk about how we can use that in a second. I'm sure that and I'll give a couple quite a few examples of uses of vacuum in a second. I'd love it. Okay. Next trait is distance. So you're not gonna give vacuum. You're gonna give it later? I'm gonna go back afterwards. I'm gonna go into applications Okay. And how each application uses 1 or more of the print.
Okay. So I've it's just for space on the paper. That's why. Yes. So we'll get to we're going to go to distance. Yes. Okay. Yep. Distance. So people distance is expensive. And when I say that, I'm sure you're a lot laughing because distance why would distance have a cost?
And the answer is if you want we just said we want to have an experiment with, with laser communications on earth, and I need a range, which is a 100 meters, you need to build me a 100,000,000 a 100 meter building, which is okay. Not not that hard. But if I need uninterrupted range of a 1000 kilometers, can you build me a building that's a 1000 kilometers uninterrupted long?
No. If I need, for my application, whatever it is, a very large uninterrupted land of sight or distance for certain applications, because earth is populated, because we've got trees and buildings and people and infrastructure and the biosphere and birds and the bees and everything, then getting uninterrupted long distances on earth is very, very hard to do. In space, it's very easy to do. Space is big. And if you don't care where it is, it's enormous.
So you've you also have the curvature of the Earth. So if you're going that distance, that also becomes a challenge. So now you're saying if we can use distance and space between, let's just use Mearth, moon and earth Mhmm. We could do experimentation between the moon and the international, low earth orbit. We can do from that distance or between space in that in the space between the 2, and we can do very large scale experimentation and develop new products and services out of that.
Yes. Okay. And, by the way, it's not only about, you know, curvature is okay. But if I want to know to store something that is super valuable, a physical object that is super valuable, Okay? It's but it's very big.
Hypothetically, if we do solve the problem of the cost to go into space, then maybe for some things that we want, some elements that we want to store for security purpose or for other purposes, maybe if distance and area is not the issue, then maybe it'll be easier to do with the space. So it's not just about curvature. It's about the physical hugeness. I know that's a bad word. No. It's a good word.
The So when you think of the you're gonna give an example later, but what would be an example of huge a physical store large, What are you thinking of? So I know of someone who has, wanted originally when I was with LifeBook, he already wanted to build a server farm, huge server farm, on the moon, where the sole purpose is that if the server farm on the earth is hit, it's got a backup, not in the same weather zone, but not in the same terrestrial zone.
Yep. Let's ignore why you wanna do that, but something that's very big. Another thing that I know people are now doing in very remote areas on earth is agricultural banks, seed banks. They're not heavy, but you want to keep them in a place that they won't be infected. Here's an example. Okay. Great. K. Last two things. Temperature.
If you wanna go really, really cold or we wanna look at the bigger picture really, really hot, You can do it on Earth with artificial, measures, AC, extreme AC, ovens, but you can also get it for free in space. So, for example, if we take computing in on satellites, the problem is not how do we cool off the satellite that we have on data centers in the ground? The problem there is, how do we distribute the heat out?
Because once we are able to get the the heat to the surface of the satellite, you don't need AC. It'll cool itself. So Earth space will give us extreme temperatures that could be useful for certain uses. Yeah. And we did have, Bianca who was on who she's a thermal control person, and we did talk about the need for one of her roles is to figure out the dispersion of heat that Yes. Needs to be on any type of, out of earth type of structure. Correct. Correct.
Okay. And then the last trait is the legal trait, which is and this started from a apologies out there, but by a a blunder. And the blunder was that, a couple of years ago, there was a group of people who, they go by the name of I think they've they've created a virtual country called Asgardia. Yep. And they decided to, launch a thumb drive of data on I think it was a SpaceX, launch in a in a, cubesat.
And the idea was to each one got 2 megabytes of data that no one would be able to touch it because it's space legally. And they launched it, and, then it turns out that that is not exactly true because like a vessel, a maritime vessel, each satellite has its own flag. The flag of the satellite of the, satellite is the flag of is the country for which it was launched. So it doesn't matter who operates it, who owns it, who built it. If something was launched out of the US, the US has.
It's a US bearing a satellite is US bearing flag, vessel, and the US law applies to said space object. Is that exactly the same for maritime? No. In maritime, you can choose which flag. Right. That's what I thought. You can you can buy you can build it in one place Mhmm. And ship it to another and put the flag of that country on it. What you're saying here is And you can and you can change it as many times you want. So you can be in Liberia today, and then you can register in Panama.
And and and there's a legal procedure, but it's very doable. Here, on the one hand, it's very, very it's fixed. Once you launch it, it's done. But once you have that flag, you are part of all the laws of said nation apply to you and to whatever you carry. Okay. But what if you're not on a vehicle? What if you're on the moon? What if you're, quote, unquote, floating in space? What law applies to what's happening there now?
If a human doing something, the law that applies to that human will apply or maybe not. Or not. Yeah. You there's no there's no definition of what that what the law is, and no one has been able to no global consensus has come to that. So this is gonna be a challenge for quite some time. Is it an opportunity?
Mhmm. Yeah. Okay. So for example, if you're able to do something in space, pure space, and there's no law that applies to it, but a certain government wants to apply its restriction to whatever's happening there, then it can't do that. But then it has to apply. And since humanity won't abide by a some an lawless activity, then they'll go into the next next thing. Say, who's doing it? Who's controlling it from the ground? Oh, you're an American?
The American law will apply to you for what you're you are doing. You're French? It will apply to what you are doing, which means we go back to personal laws of the subject matter. I'll elaborate about that in a minute. So it actually is a very, very big opportunity that enables you to legally choose the law for some applications that are favorable for your commercial endeavors. I'm not talking about illegal endeavors. I'm talking about legal commercial endeavors. Okay. Yep. I get it.
And I and I do know, having lived outside of the United States as an American, the Mhmm. You do these discussions do come up because of taxes, because of jurisdiction, even though I was an American living in Hong Kong or I was in Luxembourg or whatever. What happened was I was still under the jurisdiction of the United States government when it came to, for example, tax law.
But when I still had to follow the local laws when it came to how they operate, yet a Canadian says I don't pay any taxes because I'm outside of the country, and therefore, I don't have to fall into that jurisdiction. They have said, no. No. Wherever you are outside, it's your issue to deal with. But inside There you go. So so each country has its own structure that when it comes to finances or it comes to, overview, meaning Mhmm.
Protection. If America is well known for our m the American embassy protects the American. But not every embassy in the world will protect that person from its local jurisdiction. Correct. Okay. And then, Paul, if you want for example, if you were able to choose and you you wanted that protection, you may choose if you were able to be an American abroad. That's what you want to. So you can value is an example of something you can choose to actively take a certain advantage.
Mhmm. Yep. And and I very quickly, the one is I I took advantage having a being a Hong Kong resident card. I wasn't a resident, but we we got the status. I was able to take advantage of their health care system. Bingo. I was able to go into a hospital, show my card, and get x rays, visit doctors, everything that in the states would have been 3 to maybe 6,000, and my total bill was about a 125, 1200 Hong Kong dollars, about a $150.
And I took it I used that jurisdiction capability to be able to make choice. Yes. Okay. Got it. So those are the key those are the key traits that I've I think I've identified. As I said, I'm sure I missed the biggest one. No. No. No. You did it. This is great. This is expansive. It goes from 0 to a larger opportunity. So these are fabulous. New applications. So now we know those. We have this these trades. How can we use them?
And, again, I'm not going to go with standard with what's out there anyway. Okay? But let's Yeah. I won't touch for for the first time and only time my previous, position at Lightloop. And for example, when we went to Lightloop, then doctor Joel Moser, the chief scientist of Space Force, said, you guys are cheating. You are getting vacuum, and you're getting distances for free. Because on earth, you won't be able to get 1,000 kilometers of vacuum for, with you know, in a straight line for free.
So just step back for a moment. Light loop, we talked a little. We've never really gone into what you were doing. So I'm really interested in knowing what that's what the technology and the applications are.
So, Shifran, LightLoop's technology is was or is about building hyperscale data centers for storage in space where this data is stored on lasers, on light beams that are communicating between satellite a to b to c, back to a. So creating a loop of lasers that is communicating in space, putting in customer data on that loop.
And the loop could be very, very big, equivalent to terrestrial data centers, the biggest terrestrial data centers out there, giving you huge amount of security, huge amount of flexibility, and some other very big, benefits. But the concept is storing data in space online. So the ABC is kind of, equivalent to a RAID 5 in a server. It's it's mapping out simultaneously across multiple data centers so you never have a risk of losing your data. We we would do that with multiple loops, but correct.
And, again, any Multiple loops. Right. Okay. Yep. And and, yeah, we are to we we were we aren't well, they are talking about, 100 of satellites in low earth orbit with multiple different routes and multiple different constellations. So super secure, super redundant. But when we wanted to do this or when when we started this, then it was about where do we find a place that you can have very long laser loops without it being interrupted?
If you need distance and you need vacuum, then the logical choice is space. Mhmm. So an example of how you use vacuum distance well, actually, also law because if the data is stored in motion in between satellites, then the law that'll apply will be the law that applies to the user, not the law that applies to the satellite because nothing is on the satellite.
So we're also using they were also using the legal trade, but also about temperature because you don't need to cool because there's so here's an example of using multiple traits Mhmm. For one application. Yeah. Another example. You mentioned, your CME a couple of times. Space pharma, that uses it does use vacuum. Okay? Clean rooms, etcetera. It does use microgravity, and you can create a brand new application. And one of the coolest again, just because I'm a geek.
So one of the coolest, applications I've heard of is more and more cars are now being, updated over the air. I don't know. Tesla's do it. Now Ford has announced that they're gonna start doing the software upgrades and firmware upgrades to the car over the air. But I know of at least one company that they're planning on launching, MEO satellites. In MEO, you've got a very large, coverage. You're in a in a longer period of time above And that's medium Earth orbit. Earth orbit. Apologies.
Yes. You are in a relatively, longer period of time above a certain area, and they are planning to use satellite for updating firmware and software of cars as they go into view and out of view while you are driving. So there, you're gonna use the distance they have, the coverage, and, to give a new application. You asked me earlier about, storing big things in space. So I said grain or any biobank that people want to but are you familiar with biobanks? Yeah. The and the main one is Sweden.
Correct? Yes. Correct. But people are definitely talking about doing a biobank. So the biobank for the storage of a seed or a trade or grain, in this case, grain, so that we have the original grains. So just in case there's a, a it's not a pandemic or epidemic, but there's a disease Yes. That destroys a certain crop. The original seeds still exist, so they could be repropogated again. Bingo. I have heard of, ARCs.
Now this is super science fiction because you need a very large area with gravity and with air, but building an arc that will sustain certain life forms above. Good, bad, science fiction, could be, but you won't be able to do that without the concept of the physical distance separation and the vacuum barrier between your bank slash arc and the earth. So sometimes you're not using the actual Didn't you just my Didn't you just need a boat, like a very big boat, and you bring them on 2 by 2?
Yeah. But then the unicorns don't come because of the Oh, yeah. Right. The unicorns didn't get on. So that that's what at a part of the time and you see what happens. Okay. So you need the distance, but you also you need the vacuum. You need air, to be able to a vacuum gap. Yeah. Vacuum gap. Okay. Sometimes the trait is not the use of it, but the the fact that it's there, meaning as vac I don't need vacuum for my application.
But the fact that I have a vacuum between me and my possible disease, the vacuum gap is what I need. Yep. Here's an example. Okay. Got it. So we talked about SpacePharma. We talked in length about Lasercom. Yep. How about CPU in space? Are you the compute model of space? Which means I know of at least 3 different very large scale ventures with huge, well known companies that are building quite a bit space Internet.
And we think about what space Internet is, and you ignore space and say, what is Internet? It has a transport layer, a communication layer. It has sensors or users, I. E. Terminals, storage, users. It has, commute compute power, and you've got the Internet. You can do that and have one really true worldwide web. It's no longer a worldwide web. It's a Mearth wide web. Wait. You do one around the world. You do one around the moon.
And when you connect the 2 networks, then you've got the Mearth network. Right. That's that's perfect. That's the Mearth economy. Yes. And as you probably saw, I'm sure you did by a lot before me, that, ESA is planning on experiments of moon of of satellites around the moon, you know, to this week, I think. And we know that there's gonna be a gonna go to 5 g network on the moon just connected. So And I I I saw that the European Space Agency is doing that.
I also have heard people the the challenge with all of the announcements is that there are always announcements. Oh, yeah. Of course. Of course. And there's yes. There's no follow through. The the the one thing about this compared to any other industry, pounding your chest and yelling at the top of the mountain before you well, you're not really at the top of the mountain. You're at the bottom, but you're pounding like you've gotten there. That's a big thing about the space industry.
Yes. Okay. So so yes. If you if you can create a, a moon Internet and you can create it and there is an Earth Internet and you can connect them, you again, we're using distance, vacuum, microgravity. We're using temperature because you have to maybe there's, repeaters and legal structure. Now you've got the Mearth you've got a Mearth in Internet. Mhmm. Okay? Yeah. Absolutely.
So we have now, literally, now that we have it, now it's the time for every all the entrepreneurs, all the really smart people in the world, which I'm a part of, to say, okay. What are we trying to do? I wanna create a fiber that has less loss, and my issue is pulling is is is gravity and facilities to pull the fiber. It pull creating a fiber is cooling pulling because you are literally stretching it to make the glass to make it so long. Mhmm. Okay. Space is the answer.
But is the International Space Station a place to manufacture? No. If I really need to build the manufacturing plant, then let's go to the next point. Something can be done in space, in a spacecraft, and that could be a CubeSat. Like, we talked about a 50 by 50 by 50 or a 10 by 10 by 10 or a larger air a larger larger spacecraft, which could be a school bus, like, you know, one of the geostat. But at some point in time, you need to take a decision.
If you wanna use any one of these traits, are you going to build another international another space station, which I know a lot of people are thinking of? And I've seen, again, 3 or 4 different plans for space stations, or do you go and say, I can use most of these, if not all of these, to some extent, on another terrestrial body, I e, moon, Mars, etcetera?
So the next point is that you when you have the application you wanna do, at some point, like, you wanna really create a When you say the next point, you mean you mean number 4? Yes. The moon, Mars, or other other space bodies. Yes. Right. That means that if you want to build a manufacturing plant for, manufacturing fiber optics, then there are a couple of things you need to take into account. 1 is the cost of bringing up the materials. 2, the cost of bringing down the materials. 3 no. Sorry.
Bring down the actual product. 3, the actual physical size of my manufacturing plant. And at some point in time, for certain things, for example, fiber is an exact a perfect example, building it on a spacecraft doesn't really make sense. It will make sense to have a permanent space station, moon station that will enable you to build what you need, have the space. But then you've got to have more infrastructure, meaning transportation back and forth of material and products.
So deciding that you need the trait or that you you wanna utilize, the traits are great. But then at some point in time, which happens very, very fast in the process, you need to go back to the infrastructure, launch infrastructure, satellite dishes, lenses. It doesn't matter depending on the industry. If you're talking about doing something on the moon, then you have to bring in materials and bring our products. So transportation, infrastructure.
And that's where the 10 to 1 ratio that we talked about earlier comes back into play. Because, yes, you're only creating $1 worth of products, but you have to create so much more infrastructure to support it. Correct. You've added a layer of definition to the and I'm gonna say a reverse calculation for the things that the Moon Hut delivers. Mhmm. So let's assume that the Moon Hut is a 7 to $8,000,000,000 project.
Mhmm. It's not 7 to $8,000,000,000 that we spend on the moon because no one's buying it on the moon and all the money, currency, whatever you wanna use is being transferred and utilized on earth. Mhmm. But the moon hut and an added value of a successful group of individuals living on the moon, moving towards our industrial park where we would be manufacturing, but just that in of itself will give a factorial, and I've used the number, which is interesting.
I'm saying the Moon Hut is a is a 100 x. Mhmm. And so what you've defined because we use 8,000,000,000, you've defined a 100 x factorial, which becomes an exponential growth Mhmm. To the space ecosystem. Mhmm. So the math all works. Just just a different way of, of reframing. Different way of looking at it.
Yeah. Which which I do like because there's as you and I just prior to this com before we started this, we talked about the in this outside of the space industry, individuals wanna know what you're working on. Why is it interesting? What could be the value? How does that work? Inside the space industry, it is a pull down techno a pull down society. You can't work. You can't do it. That's not possible. I know. I know better. I know mining. You've worked in a mine?
No. No. No. But I've been studying mines. Have you lived on the moon? No. No. But I'm I'm a expert in mining. Are you using a primary? What's a primary? What do you mean what's a primary? See, I've worked in a mall. I ran a rock quarry, so I know there's a primary, secondary, there's separation, there's this process. So you've got paper.
Mhmm. And that's the difference here is what you're you're actually defining that for someone who doesn't understand the space industry, it's not a pull down, it's a pull up, is Mhmm. Okay. What does that mean? And now you you've given a mathematical formula to a 100 x deliverable, which I I love. I love it. Thank you. And Did you follow what I said, by the way? I did. I did. I Okay. Okay. Just a piece of agree. No. No. I I do agree.
Listen. When one thing I've learned in the past is, 1, when I agree with someone, I don't, argue with them. But I would frame what you said as as someone I used to work with used to say the biggest problem with innovation is, the not invented Hirsch syndrome. Meaning, if you got a really good idea, but I didn't think about it, then I will do everything in my power to tear your you and your idea down. Because if it's such a great idea, why did I not think of it myself? Right.
And there was a lot sad? So I'm not gonna name names, but I once we've had a conversation with someone in a huge one of the best known companies in the world. And he said this he's seen these ideas, 100 of these, a month, and he said, listen. We're gonna have a 30 minute call if you're interesting. Most likely, I'll finish earlier. If I finish early before 30 minutes, you're full of you're full of beep, and I don't wanna talk to you again.
Yeah. If we last the 30 minutes, you will only hear one thing from me, and that is, it's kinda interesting. If you hear it, kinda interesting That's a good sign. Means that I wanna have means I wanna speak with you again. Yeah. Otherwise, most people will say, yeah. But yeah. It just you know, I had once someone who said, listen. You cannot do laser communication in space. And I said, okay. Why? And they said it's very simple. Light in space traveled at 300,000 kilometers a second.
I said, that's true. You hit a lens when you hit the satellite. So that's also true. Lens is made out of of, glass light and glass travels 200,000 kilometers. There will be a bottlenecks of photons on the lens because you bring in the 300, and they're getting it at 200. And I said, that's not how it works. Communication's out there for decades. What are you talking about? Sorry. You cannot do laser communication in space. End of quote. I we're we're creating a website.
We've been working on it diligently. And one of the things that I've put on, for example, our media section when someone fills out, they wanna talk to us. Mhmm. We're not gonna be as visible. We're not gonna be out there stomping the ground. Mhmm. When you after they fill out the form, it's there's actually agreement you have to agree to and it says, you have to check this.
I agree that the intention of our interview is to help the cause and is not our intention to find fault to fame to track from the Project Moon Hut directive. And then it says, suggestion. If you can't agree to this to these terms, please go and contribute to a cause or project you feel will make a better future. Yeah. We're not here for you to tell us we're not going to do it. If you're here to help us find a way, we'd love for your help. But there are plenty of other people you could pick on.
You don't even pick on us. That's that's fine. So, yes, I this 100 but my point was that you did a fantastic job in my mind, and this is why these interviews is to reframe something that might be useful in an in a context when this conversation arises. 100 x numbers, the value, because I've always done it from the top, $330,000,000,000 industry, which is estimated today. You said 260, it doesn't matter, to a trillion.
But if we can add x amount to the infrastructure side, then what we've done or from the from the the original side, the base Yes. Then what we've done is we've done a 100 x. We create that exponential curve. Absolutely. It's it's just a way of explaining it, the storytelling behind it, which is perfect. So I love Ernaud. Okay? And then the last point I had was and this is gonna be the shortest point of them all. It's if they if you build it, or if you build it, they will come.
And that's really relevant to, Project Moonheart, but also to any any commercial thing. Meaning that if you were able to create a very simple understanding or education in the world that space gives you certain traits. You know physics. You know biology. You know chemistry. You know fiber optics. Whoever you are, you go and do your thing because you know what you need. I think space people, it's a really bad name for it Yep. Are really fixated on applications.
If you're able to give the platform and then let the users, users are physicists, are commercial people, are users, define what they want to do and how they're doing it, see, it is gonna be endless, endless possibility. And give the infrastructure to someone and explain what the traits are, he will come up with 10 different ways of using that trait vacuum legality that you haven't thought of and you will never be able to do.
Because one thing that I really quote unquote, hate is when some of the people you know, I grew up in the UK. I was born in Israel. I've got friends all over the world. And I've got a, you know, friend calls me up and say, how's the US economy? And I tell him, it's okay. You know? Depending on where what part of the economy, but it's okay. I really wanna build the business in the in the US. I said, why? Because America's cool. That's not how you build a business.
You build a business because you see a need for something. You think that need is more emphasized in a certain geographic region. You think that certain geographic region can sustain your business activity, and therefore, you do it. For example, did people didn't move out to California because they thought California was cool. People moved out because they found that really cool thing called go there, and they went after it.
They went after large, agricultural areas where they needed demand, and they slowly moved west because they needed land. Again, trade, huge portions of land, fertile land that you can grow things on, then you can find minerals and move over that. So people were looking, and people populated this country based on those basic traits that were in the ground, gold, minerals, farming land, physical space, lawlessness. I don't want the the law man on my shoulder until that's why I'm going out west.
So those were same thing the way we're doing in this country. Let's say, a 150, 200 years ago well, sorry. 200, 200 years ago, you can do in space today. Yeah. No. It it it makes a lot of sense, and what's going through my mind as I'm hearing this is how to create and we'll talk about this offline with our with the technology we're building.
Mhmm. How to be able to input these traits into the model of moving individuals away from talking about space, but talking about creating an ecosystem within Mearth. Mhmm. Because the conversation is often and is about space, and it's an ill defined word. What does space mean? And one of the challenges often is when an individual in my mind, because I'm not a space person, when an individual talks about space, I get lost. And I there's the project moon classification system.
I don't know if you've seen it. I don't remember if I've seen it. It's in the video that I had sent to you. Mhmm. The the project moon classification system that goes between Earth out enables us to see this these pieces of land, low Earth orbit, medium Earth orbit, high Earth orbit, the space, the orbit around the moon, and then the moon. It helps us to understand geography, and ours is to build a larger ecosystem. It's not to build a space company.
It's to build an ecosystem that is inclusive of moon and Earth or Earth. And what's inside of it has, as you've defined very, eloquently, it has traits. So what traits can be for a person who is non space oriented, opportunistic, someone who is interested in social purpose and and changing the world? Mhmm. What traits could you amplify, leverage, manipulate, modify so that you can get the highest value return and achieve your desired outcomes? It doesn't matter that it's space because Exactly.
It doesn't matter. It's just a it's an ecosystem opportunity, and I like the way you've done that. It's It's all it's the next continent that we haven't used yet. Right. And if you if you move, one of one of our team members in Germany and I are working very heavily on building a paper that's gonna be reviewed by some major company.
And he said yesterday or the other day, he he's known in the space industry as a space person, but he said when people ask me what I'm working on, he says, I'm working on an ecosystem project. Mhmm. And they said, what do you mean? You're a space person. He said, no. No. I'm not building a space company. I'm building an ecosystem, and that's what we're working on. We're building an ecosystem, and they get confused because they wanna hear space in the words.
But he's building an ecosystem, and that's his focus. If we build this, we enhance the ecosystem. If you build this, we enhance the ecosystem. The more we enhance the ecosystem, and let's use America because it's it's often known around the world Without the trains going from east to west, there would not have been as much movement.
Without the person who was challenged with figuring out time scheduling and time, the one logical time came from trains showing up in one place and leaving at another time because everybody was using sundials and different type of technology. Someone organ one individual was tasked with figuring out how to be able to make the trains operate more effectively.
And very quickly is you before there was time, before you said I could meet at 7 o'clock, trains would show up at sundown and leave at at a certain time, but that's not equivalent. So they actually created a timing structuring system for trains. And that helped to say, we're going to have a movie at 9 o'clock. We're going to go someplace at 7. A lot of it came out of trains, the infrastructure to allow that to happen to the movement of goods and services.
And so almost equivalent to your California Mhmm. Analogy. I love it. Anything else you wanna add to this? I will just add one last question. Sure. Who invented the 19 inch rack that you know, the standard rack that you put all computing, you think about a data center, you've got all those racks. When was that invented? Okay. I'm gonna take a guess. Yeah. It was created in 1976. Nice. Go back 60 years. The computer rack? Yep. It was used for railroad signaling from the 19 from 1911.
Okay. So, I got the railroad right for the first part, but I missed the year. Yes. How did the rack how did the rack actually tie it together? Because the rack size of 19 inches. Yeah. So Wait. Why did the did they have racks? Yeah. They actually had physical racks to put in all the all the signaling. So they they need all the signaling signaling equipment for railroads, and that's how they placed it. And then it rolled on, and AT and T took it in the twenties and put it into their system.
But yeah. But the actual physical box was built that way for signaling equipment in railroads. And that's similar to why is a, why the axles Bingo. Because it was the width of a Roman. Yeah. Roman. And and Roman. And it just kept on people inherited it, but it doesn't mean it's the right way. Correct. Cool. Well, this was fabulous. I always, always love when an individual comes and takes me, us, on a journey that is unanticipated.
And once again, for those who you are listening in, our conversation I make a phone call to an individual. We we decide we're going to do an interview, and then we decide on the title. The title of the program, not the content, but really just where this individual wants to go in. And it can take I don't know. You and I probably talked an hour and a half first time, maybe 2. We found the topic, and then we don't touch it anymore. I don't get the outline. I don't understand the content.
I don't know where he's gonna go with it. None of that. So I learn alongside of anybody who's listening. This is not I I don't have any research papers or anything in front of me. I haven't seen it. So this is great because you took me on a journey that I really enjoyed taking. So thank you very, very, very much. With that said Thank you for the time. With that said, I wanna thank everyone of you for taking the time out of your day to listen in.
And I do hope that you learned something today that will make a difference in your life and the lives of others. The once again, the Project Moon Hut Foundation is, around because we're looking to establish a box with a roof and a door. One day, you'll all share the whole story. But there's a story to the box with a roof and a door, and it was named eventually 2 years later by NASA staff. They called it project Moon Hut, a box to the roof and a door.
And we look to accelerate the development of the Earth and space based ecosystem, then to turn the endeavors, the paradigm shifting, thinking, the innovations back on Earth to improve how we live on Earth for all species. We're not about humans. We're about all species and continuing on. So let me ask you, do, do you have a what's the single best way to connect with you? The single best way to connect with me would be just my regular email, and my personal email, would be, oharlev.
That's oharlev@gmail.com. Perfect. And, of course, I would love to we would love to connect with you. You can reach me at and I'm gonna change it. This is the first time I'm gonna say it this way is it's david@moonhot.org. I've always said project moonhut.org, but we've also got the URL moonhut.org. So it's david@moonhut.org. You can connect with us on Twitter at at project moonhut or at goldsmith is mine. We're on LinkedIn. We're on Facebook.
We're on Instagram at, the miss at project moon hut is Instagram, and you could just look that up. You'll find it everywhere. So that said, I'm David Goldsmith, and thank you for listening. Hello, everybody. This is David Goldsmith, and welcome to the Age of Infinite. Throughout history, humans have made significant transformational changes, which in turn led to the renaming of periods into ages. You've personally just lived through the information age, and what a ride it's been.
Now consider that you might right now be living through a transitional period to the age of infinite. An age that is not defined by scarcity and abundance, but by redefined into a lifestyle considering consisting of infinite possibilities and resources. The ingredients for an amazing sci fi story has come to life as together we create a new definition of yours, our future.
The podcast is brought to you by the Project Moon Hut Foundation where we look to establish a box with a roof and a door on the moon, a moon hut, we were named by NASA, through the accelerated development of an earth and space based ecosystem. Then to use the endeavors, the paradigm shifting thinking, and the innovations and turn them back on Earth to improve how we live on Earth for all species. Today, we're going to be exploring a fantastic topic.
It is mapping out space traits to create choice. And we've got with us, Ohed Harlev. How are you, Ohed? Thank you. Great. Oh, before I give you the introduction or his sharp background, which everybody knows is short. In all the years of history, we've never been approached by a PR company who was looking to have someone be interviewed. And a few months ago, I received this email that they have a client that they'd like to see if they can get on the podcast.
And through a series of events, the 2 of us, Ohad and myself, have become friends, and it's been a a nice experience to have gotten to know him. And so here's a little background. I'm we never give a lot, but he's the former CEO of Lightloop and has been involved in the productization and commercialization in the space industry for over 15 years. I I know we're gonna have a lot of we're going to get a lot of value out of this experience. So, Ohed, do you have a outline for us? I do.
And, again, I wanted to say thank you. This is so exciting. I really, enjoyed our conversations, and it's been amazing to get to know you. But since this is a surprise, I'll start with my topics. Okay. I want to start with, the topics I'm running going to try to, discuss today are what are the current uses of space? Okay. What what are the current Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. What are the current uses of space? Next. Number 2. What are the current explorable traits of space?
Explorable, explorable Traits. Traits? Yes. Yep. Okay. New applications that we can build using these traits. We can build using these traits. And the next. Is it just about space or also about other celestial bodies, I. E, moons, Mars, etcetera? There. Terrestrial bodies. And the last topic I usually, I wanna call it, if they if you build it, they will come. That's so so amazing. They will come.
Okay. So let's start with number just, for those of you listening in, it's it's you've probably heard this before. I write these down. I've never heard them before. I don't know what the bullet points are, so that's why it takes a few moments to get them so that we're all learning together. So let's get back to it. Number 1 is, what are the current uses of space? Good. So as we all know, when people say space, then, of course, there's a space exploration part of it.
NASA, astronauts, International Space Station, beforehand, put MIR, etcetera, moon exploration. But, primarily, today, space is used for commercial reasons. And when you say commercial reasons, vast majority of the space industry is still communications, earth observation, weather, and GPS. Yep. When I say major, that's where most of the effort is. That's where most of the, money is deployed, and that's been around for, I wanna say, decades.
Some people will say, you can't say 30 40 years is a is a decade. It's been around for a very long time. It's been as it's been around as long as there's been space. That's our focus. It's been, all of the 4 that you've spoken about. So I I definitely agree. And then people usually say, yeah. But you missed the biggest one of all. And I say, have I? And the answer is yes. But I'll launch. Look at SpaceX. So everybody that's the best known private space company in the world.
You haven't mentioned launch. I said, that's right. But I haven't mentioned also building satellites. Yeah. I haven't meant and I haven't mentioned the guy who is bulldozing a brand new space port in New Zealand. Yeah. There's a lot of space port You said current uses, not infrastructure.
Bingo. So I wanna focus for a second and while we're talking in the next couple of minutes or hour about once we get to space, what do we do there or how we can we use it better, not how to get there, how to get there more efficiently, and how to later on use the data or whatever we're getting from space, data, materials, assets. How do we use them? Well, that'll come in later. For now, we're just talking about we've got out of how do we use space?
Okay. For those who do not know, we need to get Wait. Wait. Wait. Yes? Just remember. You're just talking to me. Yeah. Okay. You said for those of you who do not know. I I speak even when I speak with myself. Yes. So you've got challenges. We're not gonna fix that today. No. Okay. So, when you said once we get you get used to space, better data materials assets. Okay. Got it. If you go to, when you said, oh, well, I'm familiar with all those four elements.
Mhmm. It's about money at the end of the day. And people say, well, how much money is the space industry? And space entry is big. It all depends on how you wanna count it. If you wanna count, launch, if you wanna count the all components that people are actually building in order to put in satellites Mhmm.
And if you wanna count count in all the revenue from every member in DISH Networks or any other satellite operator that gives TV service to the home, then we talk about 100 of 1,000,000,000 of dollars. Right. But the but my question is always the space economy, from my point of view, is what are we doing? How much GDP or how much are we actually doing in space?
Because if today we are doing in space 20 or $30,000,000,000 and that sustains a $260,000,000,000 industry, if we increase the amount that we're doing in space, then we're increasing the infrastructure to create those dollars. So you use the number 20 to 30,000,000,000 as the what? As what's created as as the actual revenue of real activities in space.
And the way I got to that 20 to 30,000,000,000 is that communication, which is the biggest kind of a moneymaker in space, is approximately 17 to $18,000,000,000 of revenue per year. That's what the satellite operators of every kind, mobile satellite services, fixed satellite services, TV, etcetera, everything. That's about That's that's all of it? Wow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So but that's the that's the infrastructure in space is what the services That's the services. But it's not the annual revenue.
That's the annual revenue. Okay. Now if you add to that Earth observation, which is in its infancy, but it is making money, you add to that GPS. You add to that commercial revenue from the ISS, from experiments, soon to be, space tourism, space pharma, which is, again, in the infancy. You add all these infancies together. A lot of this is not public information, so I don't have access to it. But I'm assuming it's between single digit it's in the single digit 1,000,000 of dollars.
And that's why I said, I take the 18, I add couple single single digits. I get between 20 to 30. Yep. Okay. Yeah. But that industry, that 20 to 30 is actually supporting a $260,000,000 of economy. 260,000,000,000, which is Yep. Building satellite, launching them, testing them, earth stations, ground infrastructure, antennas, etcetera.
If we use that scenario of give or take a 10 to 1, that means that if we're able to get an extra $1,000,000,000 of space revenue, maybe we'll be able to get an extra $10,000,000,000 in the space economy. So for every 1,000,000,000 we put in, you're saying that we're gonna get 10,000,000,000 on the on the earth side of the equation? Surrounding. And and that's The surrounding. My yeah.
But you you so the the challenge that I'm having because of the way you're phrasing it more than anything is we first got the infrastructure that's in space, then we've got the surrounding, but you take the surrounding and you also ink you you're you talk about the building no. You're building, launching the ground infrastructure.
But within the earth observation and and the fees that people pay for GPS, so the fees that people pay for doing, supporting the infrastructure that helps UPS be able to make its deliveries the way they do? Mhmm. That's wouldn't that be larger? Wouldn't there be a 3rd tier? Oh, that's the impacted tier. Yes. Absolutely. There's the space impact of what is impacted in our day to day if there is no space. So one is space let's call it space economy, what's going on in space. Sorry.
Space, commerce, which is what's going on in space. 2nd is the space economy. And 3rd, what is impacted by space? And to be honest, in today's world, I think nearly everything's affected from the ATM that needs, the time from the GPS system to, every TV service, every cell company, every company in the world, every nearly every every phone call goes. So Well, every every Zoom call goes through space.
Yeah. So you need to effectively the the part of the economy, global GDP that's actually being touched by space is huge. But The the way I kind of I say this to individuals, if you live in a tier 4 and a country, tier 1 is you don't have any infrastructure. You don't you this is the lack of most, I wanna say, the tier tier 1 is the bottom. Tier 2 is you might have a refrigerator. You might have a bike. Tier 3 is you have a home, a sofa. You have a car.
You might have and then tier 4 is where we, in where you and I are living. Mhmm. You have a home. You have this infrastructure. And in tier 4, you can't live a day. Mhmm. You can't live a day without space touching you. I would say you can't live an hour. Well Yeah. Okay. I I'm holding a mouse every so often, and a mouse comes from space technology. So Yeah. Yes. So Okay. I'm assuming that everything we do and, and moreover, everything we will do in 5 years will be related to space Okay.
Some way or way, shape, or form. I agree with you. And, therefore, I'm saying if we can increase the amount of, what about, space revenue, we'll we will increase this the space economy. So you're you're looking at driving that bottom number? Yes. That's that's an interesting take because I'd never thought I hadn't thought about it from that angle. I'd always come at it from the side of growing the the bigger ecosystem. And you're saying, grow this 1 20 to 30.
Add a 1000000000, you add 10,000,000,000. So if we go from 30,000,000,000 to 40,000,000,000, we've just increased our entire ecosystem by yeah. We're we're going another well, every 100 every 10,000,000,000 is a 100 is a is a 100,000,000,000. 100,000,000,000. Yes. Correct. Yeah. Okay. Mhmm. That makes sense. It's logical. I agree. Yeah. And you add a 1,000,000,000 here, a 1,000,000,000 there. It pretty soon ends up real money. Yes. So that's the way I'm looking at the current use of space.
And, again, everybody's familiar oh, I'm familiar with the way that space is used. And even people that don't know how space is used, they use it anyway. Oh, yeah. But the question that I keep on asking myself, and I've been asking this probably since when I first joined a space company and someone said I wasn't a space guy. I was an engineer. I was on the commercial side.
Someone said, I don't wanna touch a customer or touch a in a a contract or touch anything before you understand what we actually do. And for the 1st month, he just sent me to send teleports and speak with engineers. And when I came back, he literally tested me, gave me a test to see that I know what's going on. And then he explained that I know because I was looking at the technical and not on the fundamental of how do we that company was making money out of putting satellites in space.
It's a I I I Isn't that so amazingly frustrating that they in that people I run into Mhmm. All the time. If you don't ask or wanna push, if you don't understand what rocket is going up, if you don't know about this one launch or if you don't know about this one company, you are not capable of working in the space industry. So, yes, I've seen that. But I was very privileged with this specific guy who was my first CEO and in the space industry, and he didn't care.
Although he knew everything and anything, he was you know, he still is part of the space industry, that, he didn't really care that I knew what what nut and bolt was connected to how and what but he wanted me to understand the basic physics, the basic commercial, the basic concepts. That's what he cared about. He didn't care about which satellites went on which rocket or which who's the manufacturer of the satellite. He cared about what does a satellite do. Okay. So so you name 3.
You use physics, commercial, and concepts. Yes. So give me because I wanna hear what you learned. Give me from that time frame, what are the 1, 2, or 3 physics, so 1, 2, or 3 commercial, and the 1, 2, or 3 concepts. Sure. So I that time, I was a lawyer, and I came from I'm sorry. Real estate. I know. I know. Everybody but it's fine. I'm I'm in I went through rehab, and I'm fine. And, so what I learned was the following. We were in satellite communication.
Okay. And at the end of the day, I said I learned the following. A satellite is really a building. It's a commercial building in a certain location, and you are leasing out floors. Some companies are leasing out the entire building. Some people are leasing out the floors. Some people are leasing out roofs, I e, WeWorks. You have if you want a location in that building, you buy it based on the term. The longer the term, the the, short the bigger discount you get.
Mhmm. And so that's the commercial side, literally. A satellite is just a building. You just need to allocate frequencies. That that's a I I love that you started with that one. I we both know Yossi Amin. I was in, in SpacePharma in Herzliya, Israel. And he showed me one of their CubeSats. Mhmm. And he said, in the top we do, the it's only what is it? 30, 40. It's, 50 centimeters long. I don't know the exact length.
And he said to me, this portion does this, this portion does this, and this portion does this. And he said, in the bottom here, we have a laboratory. Now the way you look at a laboratory probably is a bunch of people walking around with jackets. Mhmm. And, and they've got beakers and all sorts of things. But in here is a micro version of a laboratory. This does the same thing, but all robotic and automated. Mhmm. And I was, oh, so that's a laboratory in space with a different definition.
So you just described that, which is great. Thank you. That's number 1. What's the number 2 then? A satellite is basically a mirror. It takes the signal that is being dug to him to it and download and send it back at a pre predefined angle to a what is to a preset footprint to a certain area in the Earth that it's supposed to damage. So it's literally like you were playing as a kid with a mirror to shine light where you want it to go. Okay. Alright. Number is there another one under that?
Physics? Number 3 yeah. Number 3 sorry. Number 2 for physics is depending on your application and how you need if you wanna move, if you don't wanna move, if if how stable you need the service, you choose the applicable radio frequency band, which means it's not one size fit all fits all. You've got to say, this is my application. An expert will tell you you need to use all band a, all band b. Because of legal legal constraints or No. Because of physics. Because of physics.
Okay. So, for example, everybody used to use c band. Okay? That's that's awesome. If you wanna go for an MSS to a mobile satellite service application, you wanna go to maritime in the middle of the sea, lots of moisture, lots of storms, l band will give you a much better service. If you wanna use Ku, c band is still good. But if you wanna use, for example, whatever you're moving to Ku or some extent, Ka, not as good. So if you wanna go for maritime, stability is important to you, go with l band.
If you wanna go maritime and you wanna go with high bandwidth, go with k a. I don't know these things, but someone who's But you but you unders you understood that someone has to make a choice Correct. As to the type of frequency used to optimize whatever type of product services you're offering in space. Okay. Great. Thank you. Yep. So that's the 2 key physics. Let's call it that way. Yep. And then we talked about commercial, how to explain it Yeah. Which is pretty simple.
That everybody knows how to rent a building and lease it out. Mhmm. And then last thing he he mentioned, and I know it's not very, very unique space, but it is related to number 1 and number 2. Mhmm. And that is it's all about customer needs. In order to really tailor the right building in the right location, you've got to understand what the customer is looking out of the service. Because most people say, all I care about is connectivity. I wanna be connected. But what does that mean?
Does that mean are you moving 247? Do you have peaks in your use? There are so many questions that a customer doesn't think of. It doesn't matter if it's communication, Earth observation, the same thing. How often do you need the pictures? What kind of resolution do you need the pictures? Do you need it in bad weather? Do you need changes? If you ask a very specific set of questions per industry, you can then tailor the solution.
Because in today's satellite, there is a lot of flexibility, and you've got to choose the right solution for the right problem. And the customers think they know, but they need guidance not in what they need, but in the right questions to ask them so they will tell you what they need.
Yeah. It's an exploratory discovery to figure out which is the optimum way to be able to create the piece of property in space and connect to whatever type of application that's out there so that they can do their work and you can and the satellite, the company could do its own. Yes. Okay. That's cool. Those those are great. Those are really good. Okay. So let's continue on then, I guess, from you talked about speaking, he he told you that you needed to spend this time. You needed to learn.
He came back. He tested you about the fundamentals of space. So where did you go with this? So based on that, I figured out that communication was great. And this, again, was 13, 14, yeah, years ago. But pretty soon, I figured out to myself, I wasn't relevant for that company, was that people are primarily using it for spec for for communications. But when I really dig down into if I wanna break down space, it's not just about what band do I need for satellites.
Then there are other questions out there that are a lot more fundamental. Because if I ask just that question, mobility, sustainability, issues with weather, etcetera, I'm still focusing only on communications. Maybe I need to ask different questions of different customers, and maybe space can give that solution. Mhmm. So, for example, let's take and I'm I'll move sec in a second to traits. But one of the biggest advantages that the communication industry uses space for is coverage.
From one point in space and geo, you can see a very, very large area of the earth. Now people are looking that as footprints, whatever. But if we break it down just one the extra level, space gives us coverage. How can you use that coverage for other applications? So people are saying, oh, wait. Well, that's not a communication thing. That's weather. You put a weather satellite, you can see a lot more. Fair enough. You can also earth observation. Fair enough.
But for that thing to happen, you've got to go, as I said, go one level below and say, the basic trait that communication is using is the ability to see from one point a huge coverage. So the actual trait here is coverage. And we can condone down and then really analyze what are the traits, the basic basic traits of space that will enable us to increase this the, the the the field. So I and I don't know if this is an exact parallel.
What I have learned is that if you're in the International Space Station, which is at low earth orbit Mhmm. Project moon, we try not to use abbreviations because not everybody knows what they mean. So on the International Space Station, you can see 1 11th of the earth 1 11th of the earth at all times. How do you define coverage? Is there is there a a chart? Is there a way you can analyze it from low earth orbit, medium earth orbit, high earth orbit? How do you you define this word coverage?
So coverage in my mind is well, first of all, let's talk about things that it what are the factors that define coverage? So what define coverage is, are you stationary, or are you moving? What is the altitude? What are the what is the how would I put it? What is the sorry. What is the altitude? What is the angle of view or field of regard to the same 2 same contact? Yeah. And what are you using as your sensors?
Meaning, when you said the International Space Station, then when you can see an 11th of the earth, your sensor is the astronaut's eyes Mhmm. In which have a certain view field of view, which is very, very wide. If, however, you're using a, RF transmitter, it has a certain field of view of regulatory, but it is narrower than our eyes. So coverage is depends on the applicable sensor, whatever it is, a physical sensor, eyes, comb, radar, etcetera, cameras, altitude, and coverage can be moving.
So as you said, from the International Space Station, you will only see 11th of the Earth at end time, but now it's a different 11th. And now it's a different 11th. It's interesting. As soon as you started going through it, I'm saying, oh my I made a huge mistake in my assumption when you used the word coverage. I was thinking broad instead of thinking which we've, the the concept of being geosynchronous with the Earth. Mhmm. So that I had I wasn't didn't even go there.
So you're talking about whether it stays with a certain location on the Earth. Mhmm. So that that piece of a piece of coverage is always covered as compared to moving Mhmm. So that it can see different types of, surface areas or it could track or it can. So, yeah, once you use the word coverage and change it to be a more expansive type of modality, you've got so many more options. Yeah. So if we wanna go for a second for this basic traits that I think are and, again, I'm sure there are dozens.
So what what are the current explorable traits? Is that where we're on? We're moving to 2? Yes. Okay. We're going to 2. Just remember, I'm taking notes, so it helps to put my notes in and know where we are. Okay? Sure. What are the current go ahead. So one is we said about I I will start with this. You know, I I already mentioned my biggest, dirty secret, which was I used to be a lawyer, and every lawyer uses therefore and disclaimer.
So my first disclaimer is that, this is a very non exclusive list. These are what I think are the key, and I'm sure others will think that, one, I'm wrong. 2, that I missed one of the biggest ones. And the answer is whoever thinks that, if you think better, I'm wrong. I'm I'm I'm absolutely with you. I'm sure that I missed one of the biggest ones.
I'm I'm hoping that just like you as the word coverage that something comes up in my head that will help us with the project Moon Hut and moving us forward. So, yeah, this is great. So I I take your disclaimer. I take your disclaimer. I take your therefore, and then we can move on. I signed And you and you and you raised it and and you raised me with Grabbit. Right. And and I actually put my signature next to it. So there's a little mark. I put my initials so that we've we're all perfect here.
Okay. Great. So the key traits that I've identified is and we'll I'll I'll just list them for a second then deep dive into each one of them. We said Yep. Coverage, lack of gravity, which could be micro or nonexistent depending on location, vacuum, distance, temperature, and legal framework.
Those are the key traits so that, I think if we can use 1 or more, then we could start building new applications and new ways to use space that are, 1, not only very useful to us, hopefully useful to the economy, maybe even useful to science. But if we increase the echoes, as we said, it's all about every dollar you enter into one place, then it will increase the entire chain effect. Yep. So I think the most common one everybody's using it, you mentioned, you know, pharma, microgravity.
There are endless applications. So so we just figured coverage. We're going to lack of gravity, and we're gonna cover the micro and is that what we're doing? Is this number 2? Well no. Yeah. We'll we'll yeah. Exactly. Okay. So So one has already been done in the last one, which I got, and now we're going to 2. So just okay. Correct. Thank you. So let me mark them. That way, I won't re re visit them. No. No. It's okay if you do. Often, we go in and out.
It's just that you've given some great information, and Yeah. I'm I'm sucking it in. I wanna make sure that I I don't miss anything. So my so we don't we don't miss. Yeah. No. I may go back to coverage for a second. Inherently. Yep. I actually put a note here for coverage. So there's there's plenty of space for it. But lack of gravity, so we're trying microgravity at the moment.
Yeah. So microgravity, there are multiple and and I must admit that the actual application of microgravity is more, chemistry and biology, which which are not my area. I'm a bit strong a bit stronger with, physics. But we see that there are a lot of medicines, a lot of plants, a lot of human cells, and a lot of regular standard manufacturing, such as zblend fibers. Zblend fibers fiber optic cable that can only be manufactured in micro or zero gravity. Really? Oh oh, yeah.
So, for example, if we took ZBLAN, ZBLAN one of the biggest problems with a regular fiber optic that's been you know, the entire world has been dug up. One of the biggest problem with, like, with fiber optics is, loss. Every kilometer, you lose x dB. Loss is measured in dB. Yeah. If you're able to produce a different material that has loss, you will use you will need less amplifiers, less repeaters, less power. Everything's much better.
The only problem is you need a better material, which is not only better. It has to be cost effective. It has to be available. So so far, they have identified a material called zblan, and that is, you can get literally under a 10th 10 percent of the loss. So a signal will go 10 times fast 10 times longer before you need to reamplify it. The only problem is you can create it with tens of meters each time at in the International Space Station. That's where they're manufacturing it.
It's a experiment. So there's there's a manufacturing plant at the International Space Station. They've done a couple of experiments, and they've actually manufactured deep band fibers, single mid single digit, meters in it. Yeah. Okay. So they're not it's not a plant. It's a testing bed where they're creating a certain length to be able to utilize, but they're not producing kilometers of this cable. Not yet. Okay. Not yet.
And and just just for my knowledge, how is it spelled z blan z z b l a n. Okay. That's what I wrote. Yeah. Okay. So there are certain things that you can literally just build or or manufacture or grow in space. And I'm sure that for everything I mentioned now, I've missed 10 areas because as I said, biology biology is not my area. Not that physics is but biology is not chemistry. But I see the huge amount of endeavors in this field.
And, again, as a guy who comes from the economic side, I usually say that if someone does something in a commercial company, there is a commercial application for it, which means there is a need. So we've we've had Stephanie Countryman do a podcast, and she did it on, biology experiments dealing with insects and animals that stay have done in space. We've had again, I brought him up earlier. We've, Yossi Amin has been on. He's talked about a little biology that's being done.
So wherever you can fill in, you're giving a whole different angle by going towards the materials, material sciences, and that's great too. So wherever you can give me and us some understanding, that's fantastic. Okay. So, so we there is a lot of materials. Again, physical materials such as, fiber optics and others that you, you know, you can use a trait of, let's call it, microgravity, to build these things. Now you need to have a chemist or a physicist sit down and see what can I do?
Like, a lot of material by the way, the actual, re the the biggest, researcher in the field, is done out of USC, and they're the ones who are actually, in cooperation with NASA to build the Zipline on the space station. So, if we we're staying at the trait level, we'll talk about applications in a second, in the next bullet. And then the first trait is microgravity, which is low which is clear. That's the second, actually. The first one was coverage. The second one was gravity.
3rd trait, when you use I wanna I wanna jump Yeah. Because you said microgravity and no gravity. Yeah. So can you give an example of a no gravity application? A no gravity application. Because you said there's micro, and then you said there's no gravity. Correct. So is there one that we've found already, or are we just saying that I'm not aware of anyone.
I'm not aware of any application so far that is using zero gravity as as a trade that's needed, but it is a resource that if someone needs that kind of environment, you can create it on Earth at a huge cost or get it in space. The Maybe getting it is cheaper. The one and and that's okay that we don't have one yet.
The I think the most amazing piece of information that I learned from Yossi was a combination of his website and talking with him just I don't know if we shared it as much on the podcast. He had shared when you're creating a molecule on earth and you it starts to form. Gravity will pull down the creation of that molecule. There's a force of gravity. And that when you go up into space, you can create a molecule and because there's no gravity, the the atoms can form in structures.
They can get to where they need to be without being pulled down. And once you get, say, a cylindrical structure, you can put in a keystone, you could put in a pin, it will hold it all together, then you could bring that molecule back down to Earth and replicate it on Earth because now you have a a one off a modular piece that you could work with.
And that that kind of construct of understanding that we're not talking about microgravity doing, but what it does is it enables the ability to be able to form structures that gravity would pull it apart just because there's gravity. Does that make sense what I say to it? It's it's a 100%. That's exactly you just said what I I told you that in advance, and you just copied word for word for what I said earlier. Yes. Glad that I'm listening. But we haven't found we Perfect.
So the difference between aware of. The microgravity and zero gravity are probably my guess is going to be there's gonna be more of a difference between gravity on Earth and the microgravity than there is going to be gravity and not microgravity and 0. It's that that that little extra might not do as much as just the fact that we're in a microgravity environment. Not at all. You're a 100% correct.
The extra is very incredibly significant, and take into account that physics wise, there's always a something pulling you. Okay? So it diminishes. And to get to 0, it's very hard. But for some applications, that may be important. It's just something that we need to think of. The interesting the interesting thing is, in my mind, I'm just very quickly going, is we've got earth. We've got atmosphere. We got low earth orbit, medium in the north orbit, higher earth orbit.
Then we have the space between and this, the space between the earth and then the orbit and a little bit of atmosphere around the moon, and then we have the moon. And that's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 on the project moon, our classification system. But reality between these two structs, these two entities, there is no zero gravity. No. Of course not. Point has, but there's still a pull. The only way to get to 0 Mhmm. Would be and, actually, it might be because you've got the sun's gravity.
Yeah. To to you're always gonna have a celestial gravitational pull someplace. So I agree. I I'm you know, I I will stand correct. I'm not sure that 0, but it is the the micro part will go will diminish. Correct. And that's what that's what I was trying to get at because I couldn't make get my mind around where we would get to 0, and now walking it through with you, I can see that. We'll always have a gravitational pull. It's is it becomes down to in your structure, the traits.
Maybe at at low low earth, low earth orbit, you get one type of microgravity where medium will give you an application to create, and I'm just making this up, a better z band z band. Mhmm. And then if you can get you can get a little further out, you might be able to get instead of 10 x, you might be able to get 13 x because you can create a different molecule or a different structure. Okay. Yep. So you you're you're right. I I will create it will never go to 0, but it will go better.
It will go lower. Right. It's a it's a long tail. You've got this Very, very long tail. You've got this you've got very high on earth, and then you go to 1 6th in the moon, but you're still not at 0. You and then in between, you've got relatively relative different variations between. Perfect. Got it. Okay. So the next one, gravity, a vacuum. Vacuum. So there are a lot of applications that need vacuum, and you are creating vacuum on earth. And creating vacuum is expensive. I'll give an example.
Laser communications. Atmosphere is very powerful for laser communication. If you want very long range laser communications on earth when you say very long laser communications on earth, if you're an amazing setup, you can get tens of kilometers. 50, 60, 70 kilometers. Let's agree that it's sub 100 kilometers, and that's an optimal scenario. However, in space, you can have laser links that will if you have a big enough aperture or a big enough mirror or receiver, you can go forever.
Effectively for tens of thou sorry, for 100 of 1000 of kilometers, there has been a communication between AlphaSat and the moon and back, which is give or take 384 minus 36 because it was in geostationary orbit. So 350,000 kilometer, and it can go way, way, way lower. So That's that's because there's no atmosphere. There's nothing interfering with the laser. Correct. Therefore, the laser can continuously go, with because it's not running into any particles. Yes. There's no Correct. Correct.
There's no water. There's no whatever. There's no, moisture. There's no oil that really affects. So the third trait is vacuum. We'll talk about how we can use that in a second. I'm sure that and I'll give a couple quite a few examples of uses of vacuum in a second. I'd love it. Okay. Next trait is distance. So you're not gonna give vacuum. You're gonna give it later? I'm gonna go back afterwards. I'm gonna go into applications Okay. And how each application uses 1 or more of the print.
Okay. So I've it's just for space on the paper. That's why. Yes. So we'll get to we're going to go to distance. Yes. Okay. Yep. Distance. So people distance is expensive. And when I say that, I'm sure you're a lot laughing because distance why would distance have a cost?
And the answer is if you want we just said we want to have an experiment with, with laser communications on earth, and I need a range, which is a 100 meters, you need to build me a 100,000,000 a 100 meter building, which is okay. Not not that hard. But if I need uninterrupted range of a 1000 kilometers, can you build me a building that's a 1000 kilometers uninterrupted long?
No. If I need, for my application, whatever it is, a very large uninterrupted land of sight or distance for certain applications, because earth is populated, because we've got trees and buildings and people and infrastructure and the biosphere and birds and the bees and everything, then getting uninterrupted long distances on earth is very, very hard to do. In space, it's very easy to do. Space is big. And if you don't care where it is, it's enormous.
So you've you also have the curvature of the Earth. So if you're going that distance, that also becomes a challenge. So now you're saying if we can use distance and space between, let's just use Mearth, moon and earth Mhmm. We could do experimentation between the moon and the international, low earth orbit. We can do from that distance or between space in that in the space between the 2, and we can do very large scale experimentation and develop new products and services out of that.
Yes. Okay. And, by the way, it's not only about, you know, curvature is okay. But if I want to know to store something that is super valuable, a physical object that is super valuable, Okay? It's but it's very big.
Hypothetically, if we do solve the problem of the cost to go into space, then maybe for some things that we want, some elements that we want to store for security purpose or for other purposes, maybe if distance and area is not the issue, then maybe it'll be easier to do with the space. So it's not just about curvature. It's about the physical hugeness. I know that's a bad word. No. It's a good word.
The So when you think of the you're gonna give an example later, but what would be an example of huge a physical store large, What are you thinking of? So I know of someone who has, wanted originally when I was with LifeBook, he already wanted to build a server farm, huge server farm, on the moon, where the sole purpose is that if the server farm on the earth is hit, it's got a backup, not in the same weather zone, but not in the same terrestrial zone.
Yep. Let's ignore why you wanna do that, but something that's very big. Another thing that I know people are now doing in very remote areas on earth is agricultural banks, seed banks. They're not heavy, but you want to keep them in a place that they won't be infected. Here's an example. Okay. Great. K. Last two things. Temperature.
If you wanna go really, really cold or we wanna look at the bigger picture really, really hot, You can do it on Earth with artificial, measures, AC, extreme AC, ovens, but you can also get it for free in space. So, for example, if we take computing in on satellites, the problem is not how do we cool off the satellite that we have on data centers in the ground? The problem there is, how do we distribute the heat out?
Because once we are able to get the the heat to the surface of the satellite, you don't need AC. It'll cool itself. So Earth space will give us extreme temperatures that could be useful for certain uses. Yeah. And we did have, Bianca who was on who she's a thermal control person, and we did talk about the need for one of her roles is to figure out the dispersion of heat that Yes. Needs to be on any type of, out of earth type of structure. Correct. Correct.
Okay. And then the last trait is the legal trait, which is and this started from a apologies out there, but by a a blunder. And the blunder was that, a couple of years ago, there was a group of people who, they go by the name of I think they've they've created a virtual country called Asgardia. Yep. And they decided to, launch a thumb drive of data on I think it was a SpaceX, launch in a in a, cubesat.
And the idea was to each one got 2 megabytes of data that no one would be able to touch it because it's space legally. And they launched it, and, then it turns out that that is not exactly true because like a vessel, a maritime vessel, each satellite has its own flag. The flag of the satellite of the, satellite is the flag of is the country for which it was launched. So it doesn't matter who operates it, who owns it, who built it. If something was launched out of the US, the US has.
It's a US bearing a satellite is US bearing flag, vessel, and the US law applies to said space object. Is that exactly the same for maritime? No. In maritime, you can choose which flag. Right. That's what I thought. You can you can buy you can build it in one place Mhmm. And ship it to another and put the flag of that country on it. What you're saying here is And you can and you can change it as many times you want. So you can be in Liberia today, and then you can register in Panama.
And and and there's a legal procedure, but it's very doable. Here, on the one hand, it's very, very it's fixed. Once you launch it, it's done. But once you have that flag, you are part of all the laws of said nation apply to you and to whatever you carry. Okay. But what if you're not on a vehicle? What if you're on the moon? What if you're, quote, unquote, floating in space? What law applies to what's happening there now?
If a human doing something, the law that applies to that human will apply or maybe not. Or not. Yeah. You there's no there's no definition of what that what the law is, and no one has been able to no global consensus has come to that. So this is gonna be a challenge for quite some time. Is it an opportunity?
Mhmm. Yeah. Okay. So for example, if you're able to do something in space, pure space, and there's no law that applies to it, but a certain government wants to apply its restriction to whatever's happening there, then it can't do that. But then it has to apply. And since humanity won't abide by a some an lawless activity, then they'll go into the next next thing. Say, who's doing it? Who's controlling it from the ground? Oh, you're an American?
The American law will apply to you for what you're you are doing. You're French? It will apply to what you are doing, which means we go back to personal laws of the subject matter. I'll elaborate about that in a minute. So it actually is a very, very big opportunity that enables you to legally choose the law for some applications that are favorable for your commercial endeavors. I'm not talking about illegal endeavors. I'm talking about legal commercial endeavors. Okay. Yep. I get it.
And I and I do know, having lived outside of the United States as an American, the Mhmm. You do these discussions do come up because of taxes, because of jurisdiction, even though I was an American living in Hong Kong or I was in Luxembourg or whatever. What happened was I was still under the jurisdiction of the United States government when it came to, for example, tax law.
But when I still had to follow the local laws when it came to how they operate, yet a Canadian says I don't pay any taxes because I'm outside of the country, and therefore, I don't have to fall into that jurisdiction. They have said, no. No. Wherever you are outside, it's your issue to deal with. But inside There you go. So so each country has its own structure that when it comes to finances or it comes to, overview, meaning Mhmm.
Protection. If America is well known for our m the American embassy protects the American. But not every embassy in the world will protect that person from its local jurisdiction. Correct. Okay. And then, Paul, if you want for example, if you were able to choose and you you wanted that protection, you may choose if you were able to be an American abroad. That's what you want to. So you can value is an example of something you can choose to actively take a certain advantage.
Mhmm. Yep. And and I very quickly, the one is I I took advantage having a being a Hong Kong resident card. I wasn't a resident, but we we got the status. I was able to take advantage of their health care system. Bingo. I was able to go into a hospital, show my card, and get x rays, visit doctors, everything that in the states would have been 3 to maybe 6,000, and my total bill was about a 125, 1200 Hong Kong dollars, about a $150.
And I took it I used that jurisdiction capability to be able to make choice. Yes. Okay. Got it. So those are the key those are the key traits that I've I think I've identified. As I said, I'm sure I missed the biggest one. No. No. No. You did it. This is great. This is expansive. It goes from 0 to a larger opportunity. So these are fabulous. New applications. So now we know those. We have this these trades. How can we use them?
And, again, I'm not going to go with standard with what's out there anyway. Okay? But let's Yeah. I won't touch for for the first time and only time my previous, position at Lightloop. And for example, when we went to Lightloop, then doctor Joel Moser, the chief scientist of Space Force, said, you guys are cheating. You are getting vacuum, and you're getting distances for free. Because on earth, you won't be able to get 1,000 kilometers of vacuum for, with you know, in a straight line for free.
So just step back for a moment. Light loop, we talked a little. We've never really gone into what you were doing. So I'm really interested in knowing what that's what the technology and the applications are.
So, Shifran, LightLoop's technology is was or is about building hyperscale data centers for storage in space where this data is stored on lasers, on light beams that are communicating between satellite a to b to c, back to a. So creating a loop of lasers that is communicating in space, putting in customer data on that loop.
And the loop could be very, very big, equivalent to terrestrial data centers, the biggest terrestrial data centers out there, giving you huge amount of security, huge amount of flexibility, and some other very big, benefits. But the concept is storing data in space online. So the ABC is kind of, equivalent to a RAID 5 in a server. It's it's mapping out simultaneously across multiple data centers so you never have a risk of losing your data. We we would do that with multiple loops, but correct.
And, again, any Multiple loops. Right. Okay. Yep. And and, yeah, we are to we we were we aren't well, they are talking about, 100 of satellites in low earth orbit with multiple different routes and multiple different constellations. So super secure, super redundant. But when we wanted to do this or when when we started this, then it was about where do we find a place that you can have very long laser loops without it being interrupted?
If you need distance and you need vacuum, then the logical choice is space. Mhmm. So an example of how you use vacuum distance well, actually, also law because if the data is stored in motion in between satellites, then the law that'll apply will be the law that applies to the user, not the law that applies to the satellite because nothing is on the satellite.
So we're also using they were also using the legal trade, but also about temperature because you don't need to cool because there's so here's an example of using multiple traits Mhmm. For one application. Yeah. Another example. You mentioned, your CME a couple of times. Space pharma, that uses it does use vacuum. Okay? Clean rooms, etcetera. It does use microgravity, and you can create a brand new application. And one of the coolest again, just because I'm a geek.
So one of the coolest, applications I've heard of is more and more cars are now being, updated over the air. I don't know. Tesla's do it. Now Ford has announced that they're gonna start doing the software upgrades and firmware upgrades to the car over the air. But I know of at least one company that they're planning on launching, MEO satellites. In MEO, you've got a very large, coverage. You're in a in a longer period of time above And that's medium Earth orbit. Earth orbit. Apologies.
Yes. You are in a relatively, longer period of time above a certain area, and they are planning to use satellite for updating firmware and software of cars as they go into view and out of view while you are driving. So there, you're gonna use the distance they have, the coverage, and, to give a new application. You asked me earlier about, storing big things in space. So I said grain or any biobank that people want to but are you familiar with biobanks? Yeah. The and the main one is Sweden.
Correct? Yes. Correct. But people are definitely talking about doing a biobank. So the biobank for the storage of a seed or a trade or grain, in this case, grain, so that we have the original grains. So just in case there's a, a it's not a pandemic or epidemic, but there's a disease Yes. That destroys a certain crop. The original seeds still exist, so they could be repropogated again. Bingo. I have heard of, ARCs.
Now this is super science fiction because you need a very large area with gravity and with air, but building an arc that will sustain certain life forms above. Good, bad, science fiction, could be, but you won't be able to do that without the concept of the physical distance separation and the vacuum barrier between your bank slash arc and the earth. So sometimes you're not using the actual Didn't you just my Didn't you just need a boat, like a very big boat, and you bring them on 2 by 2?
Yeah. But then the unicorns don't come because of the Oh, yeah. Right. The unicorns didn't get on. So that that's what at a part of the time and you see what happens. Okay. So you need the distance, but you also you need the vacuum. You need air, to be able to a vacuum gap. Yeah. Vacuum gap. Okay. Sometimes the trait is not the use of it, but the the fact that it's there, meaning as vac I don't need vacuum for my application.
But the fact that I have a vacuum between me and my possible disease, the vacuum gap is what I need. Yep. Here's an example. Okay. Got it. So we talked about SpacePharma. We talked in length about Lasercom. Yep. How about CPU in space? Are you the compute model of space? Which means I know of at least 3 different very large scale ventures with huge, well known companies that are building quite a bit space Internet.
And we think about what space Internet is, and you ignore space and say, what is Internet? It has a transport layer, a communication layer. It has sensors or users, I. E. Terminals, storage, users. It has, commute compute power, and you've got the Internet. You can do that and have one really true worldwide web. It's no longer a worldwide web. It's a Mearth wide web. Wait. You do one around the world. You do one around the moon.
And when you connect the 2 networks, then you've got the Mearth network. Right. That's that's perfect. That's the Mearth economy. Yes. And as you probably saw, I'm sure you did by a lot before me, that, ESA is planning on experiments of moon of of satellites around the moon, you know, to this week, I think. And we know that there's gonna be a gonna go to 5 g network on the moon just connected. So And I I I saw that the European Space Agency is doing that.
I also have heard people the the challenge with all of the announcements is that there are always announcements. Oh, yeah. Of course. Of course. And there's yes. There's no follow through. The the the one thing about this compared to any other industry, pounding your chest and yelling at the top of the mountain before you well, you're not really at the top of the mountain. You're at the bottom, but you're pounding like you've gotten there. That's a big thing about the space industry.
Yes. Okay. So so yes. If you if you can create a, a moon Internet and you can create it and there is an Earth Internet and you can connect them, you again, we're using distance, vacuum, microgravity. We're using temperature because you have to maybe there's, repeaters and legal structure. Now you've got the Mearth you've got a Mearth in Internet. Mhmm. Okay? Yeah. Absolutely.
So we have now, literally, now that we have it, now it's the time for every all the entrepreneurs, all the really smart people in the world, which I'm a part of, to say, okay. What are we trying to do? I wanna create a fiber that has less loss, and my issue is pulling is is is gravity and facilities to pull the fiber. It pull creating a fiber is cooling pulling because you are literally stretching it to make the glass to make it so long. Mhmm. Okay. Space is the answer.
But is the International Space Station a place to manufacture? No. If I really need to build the manufacturing plant, then let's go to the next point. Something can be done in space, in a spacecraft, and that could be a CubeSat. Like, we talked about a 50 by 50 by 50 or a 10 by 10 by 10 or a larger air a larger larger spacecraft, which could be a school bus, like, you know, one of the geostat. But at some point in time, you need to take a decision.
If you wanna use any one of these traits, are you going to build another international another space station, which I know a lot of people are thinking of? And I've seen, again, 3 or 4 different plans for space stations, or do you go and say, I can use most of these, if not all of these, to some extent, on another terrestrial body, I e, moon, Mars, etcetera?
So the next point is that you when you have the application you wanna do, at some point, like, you wanna really create a When you say the next point, you mean you mean number 4? Yes. The moon, Mars, or other other space bodies. Yes. Right. That means that if you want to build a manufacturing plant for, manufacturing fiber optics, then there are a couple of things you need to take into account. 1 is the cost of bringing up the materials. 2, the cost of bringing down the materials. 3 no. Sorry.
Bring down the actual product. 3, the actual physical size of my manufacturing plant. And at some point in time, for certain things, for example, fiber is an exact a perfect example, building it on a spacecraft doesn't really make sense. It will make sense to have a permanent space station, moon station that will enable you to build what you need, have the space. But then you've got to have more infrastructure, meaning transportation back and forth of material and products.
So deciding that you need the trait or that you you wanna utilize, the traits are great. But then at some point in time, which happens very, very fast in the process, you need to go back to the infrastructure, launch infrastructure, satellite dishes, lenses. It doesn't matter depending on the industry. If you're talking about doing something on the moon, then you have to bring in materials and bring our products. So transportation, infrastructure.
And that's where the 10 to 1 ratio that we talked about earlier comes back into play. Because, yes, you're only creating $1 worth of products, but you have to create so much more infrastructure to support it. Correct. You've added a layer of definition to the and I'm gonna say a reverse calculation for the things that the Moon Hut delivers. Mhmm. So let's assume that the Moon Hut is a 7 to $8,000,000,000 project.
Mhmm. It's not 7 to $8,000,000,000 that we spend on the moon because no one's buying it on the moon and all the money, currency, whatever you wanna use is being transferred and utilized on earth. Mhmm. But the moon hut and an added value of a successful group of individuals living on the moon, moving towards our industrial park where we would be manufacturing, but just that in of itself will give a factorial, and I've used the number, which is interesting.
I'm saying the Moon Hut is a is a 100 x. Mhmm. And so what you've defined because we use 8,000,000,000, you've defined a 100 x factorial, which becomes an exponential growth Mhmm. To the space ecosystem. Mhmm. So the math all works. Just just a different way of, of reframing. Different way of looking at it.
Yeah. Which which I do like because there's as you and I just prior to this com before we started this, we talked about the in this outside of the space industry, individuals wanna know what you're working on. Why is it interesting? What could be the value? How does that work? Inside the space industry, it is a pull down techno a pull down society. You can't work. You can't do it. That's not possible. I know. I know better. I know mining. You've worked in a mine?
No. No. No. But I've been studying mines. Have you lived on the moon? No. No. But I'm I'm a expert in mining. Are you using a primary? What's a primary? What do you mean what's a primary? See, I've worked in a mall. I ran a rock quarry, so I know there's a primary, secondary, there's separation, there's this process. So you've got paper.
Mhmm. And that's the difference here is what you're you're actually defining that for someone who doesn't understand the space industry, it's not a pull down, it's a pull up, is Mhmm. Okay. What does that mean? And now you you've given a mathematical formula to a 100 x deliverable, which I I love. I love it. Thank you. And Did you follow what I said, by the way? I did. I did. I Okay. Okay. Just a piece of agree. No. No. I I do agree.
Listen. When one thing I've learned in the past is, 1, when I agree with someone, I don't, argue with them. But I would frame what you said as as someone I used to work with used to say the biggest problem with innovation is, the not invented Hirsch syndrome. Meaning, if you got a really good idea, but I didn't think about it, then I will do everything in my power to tear your you and your idea down. Because if it's such a great idea, why did I not think of it myself? Right.
And there was a lot sad? So I'm not gonna name names, but I once we've had a conversation with someone in a huge one of the best known companies in the world. And he said this he's seen these ideas, 100 of these, a month, and he said, listen. We're gonna have a 30 minute call if you're interesting. Most likely, I'll finish earlier. If I finish early before 30 minutes, you're full of you're full of beep, and I don't wanna talk to you again.
Yeah. If we last the 30 minutes, you will only hear one thing from me, and that is, it's kinda interesting. If you hear it, kinda interesting That's a good sign. Means that I wanna have means I wanna speak with you again. Yeah. Otherwise, most people will say, yeah. But yeah. It just you know, I had once someone who said, listen. You cannot do laser communication in space. And I said, okay. Why? And they said it's very simple. Light in space traveled at 300,000 kilometers a second.
I said, that's true. You hit a lens when you hit the satellite. So that's also true. Lens is made out of of, glass light and glass travels 200,000 kilometers. There will be a bottlenecks of photons on the lens because you bring in the 300, and they're getting it at 200. And I said, that's not how it works. Communication's out there for decades. What are you talking about? Sorry. You cannot do laser communication in space. End of quote. I we're we're creating a website.
We've been working on it diligently. And one of the things that I've put on, for example, our media section when someone fills out, they wanna talk to us. Mhmm. We're not gonna be as visible. We're not gonna be out there stomping the ground. Mhmm. When you after they fill out the form, it's there's actually agreement you have to agree to and it says, you have to check this.
I agree that the intention of our interview is to help the cause and is not our intention to find fault to fame to track from the Project Moon Hut directive. And then it says, suggestion. If you can't agree to this to these terms, please go and contribute to a cause or project you feel will make a better future. Yeah. We're not here for you to tell us we're not going to do it. If you're here to help us find a way, we'd love for your help. But there are plenty of other people you could pick on.
You don't even pick on us. That's that's fine. So, yes, I this 100 but my point was that you did a fantastic job in my mind, and this is why these interviews is to reframe something that might be useful in an in a context when this conversation arises. 100 x numbers, the value, because I've always done it from the top, $330,000,000,000 industry, which is estimated today. You said 260, it doesn't matter, to a trillion.
But if we can add x amount to the infrastructure side, then what we've done or from the from the the original side, the base Yes. Then what we've done is we've done a 100 x. We create that exponential curve. Absolutely. It's it's just a way of explaining it, the storytelling behind it, which is perfect. So I love Ernaud. Okay? And then the last point I had was and this is gonna be the shortest point of them all. It's if they if you build it, or if you build it, they will come.
And that's really relevant to, Project Moonheart, but also to any any commercial thing. Meaning that if you were able to create a very simple understanding or education in the world that space gives you certain traits. You know physics. You know biology. You know chemistry. You know fiber optics. Whoever you are, you go and do your thing because you know what you need. I think space people, it's a really bad name for it Yep. Are really fixated on applications.
If you're able to give the platform and then let the users, users are physicists, are commercial people, are users, define what they want to do and how they're doing it, see, it is gonna be endless, endless possibility. And give the infrastructure to someone and explain what the traits are, he will come up with 10 different ways of using that trait vacuum legality that you haven't thought of and you will never be able to do.
Because one thing that I really quote unquote, hate is when some of the people you know, I grew up in the UK. I was born in Israel. I've got friends all over the world. And I've got a, you know, friend calls me up and say, how's the US economy? And I tell him, it's okay. You know? Depending on where what part of the economy, but it's okay. I really wanna build the business in the in the US. I said, why? Because America's cool. That's not how you build a business.
You build a business because you see a need for something. You think that need is more emphasized in a certain geographic region. You think that certain geographic region can sustain your business activity, and therefore, you do it. For example, did people didn't move out to California because they thought California was cool. People moved out because they found that really cool thing called go there, and they went after it.
They went after large, agricultural areas where they needed demand, and they slowly moved west because they needed land. Again, trade, huge portions of land, fertile land that you can grow things on, then you can find minerals and move over that. So people were looking, and people populated this country based on those basic traits that were in the ground, gold, minerals, farming land, physical space, lawlessness. I don't want the the law man on my shoulder until that's why I'm going out west.
So those were same thing the way we're doing in this country. Let's say, a 150, 200 years ago well, sorry. 200, 200 years ago, you can do in space today. Yeah. No. It it it makes a lot of sense, and what's going through my mind as I'm hearing this is how to create and we'll talk about this offline with our with the technology we're building.
Mhmm. How to be able to input these traits into the model of moving individuals away from talking about space, but talking about creating an ecosystem within Mearth. Mhmm. Because the conversation is often and is about space, and it's an ill defined word. What does space mean? And one of the challenges often is when an individual in my mind, because I'm not a space person, when an individual talks about space, I get lost. And I there's the project moon classification system.
I don't know if you've seen it. I don't remember if I've seen it. It's in the video that I had sent to you. Mhmm. The the project moon classification system that goes between Earth out enables us to see this these pieces of land, low Earth orbit, medium Earth orbit, high Earth orbit, the space, the orbit around the moon, and then the moon. It helps us to understand geography, and ours is to build a larger ecosystem. It's not to build a space company.
It's to build an ecosystem that is inclusive of moon and Earth or Earth. And what's inside of it has, as you've defined very, eloquently, it has traits. So what traits can be for a person who is non space oriented, opportunistic, someone who is interested in social purpose and and changing the world? Mhmm. What traits could you amplify, leverage, manipulate, modify so that you can get the highest value return and achieve your desired outcomes? It doesn't matter that it's space because Exactly.
It doesn't matter. It's just a it's an ecosystem opportunity, and I like the way you've done that. It's It's all it's the next continent that we haven't used yet. Right. And if you if you move, one of one of our team members in Germany and I are working very heavily on building a paper that's gonna be reviewed by some major company.
And he said yesterday or the other day, he he's known in the space industry as a space person, but he said when people ask me what I'm working on, he says, I'm working on an ecosystem project. Mhmm. And they said, what do you mean? You're a space person. He said, no. No. I'm not building a space company. I'm building an ecosystem, and that's what we're working on. We're building an ecosystem, and they get confused because they wanna hear space in the words.
But he's building an ecosystem, and that's his focus. If we build this, we enhance the ecosystem. If you build this, we enhance the ecosystem. The more we enhance the ecosystem, and let's use America because it's it's often known around the world Without the trains going from east to west, there would not have been as much movement.
Without the person who was challenged with figuring out time scheduling and time, the one logical time came from trains showing up in one place and leaving at another time because everybody was using sundials and different type of technology. Someone organ one individual was tasked with figuring out how to be able to make the trains operate more effectively.
And very quickly is you before there was time, before you said I could meet at 7 o'clock, trains would show up at sundown and leave at at a certain time, but that's not equivalent. So they actually created a timing structuring system for trains. And that helped to say, we're going to have a movie at 9 o'clock. We're going to go someplace at 7. A lot of it came out of trains, the infrastructure to allow that to happen to the movement of goods and services.
And so almost equivalent to your California Mhmm. Analogy. I love it. Anything else you wanna add to this? I will just add one last question. Sure. Who invented the 19 inch rack that you know, the standard rack that you put all computing, you think about a data center, you've got all those racks. When was that invented? Okay. I'm gonna take a guess. Yeah. It was created in 1976. Nice. Go back 60 years. The computer rack? Yep. It was used for railroad signaling from the 19 from 1911.
Okay. So, I got the railroad right for the first part, but I missed the year. Yes. How did the rack how did the rack actually tie it together? Because the rack size of 19 inches. Yeah. So Wait. Why did the did they have racks? Yeah. They actually had physical racks to put in all the all the signaling. So they they need all the signaling signaling equipment for railroads, and that's how they placed it. And then it rolled on, and AT and T took it in the twenties and put it into their system.
But yeah. But the actual physical box was built that way for signaling equipment in railroads. And that's similar to why is a, why the axles Bingo. Because it was the width of a Roman. Yeah. Roman. And and Roman. And it just kept on people inherited it, but it doesn't mean it's the right way. Correct. Cool. Well, this was fabulous. I always, always love when an individual comes and takes me, us, on a journey that is unanticipated.
And once again, for those who you are listening in, our conversation I make a phone call to an individual. We we decide we're going to do an interview, and then we decide on the title. The title of the program, not the content, but really just where this individual wants to go in. And it can take I don't know. You and I probably talked an hour and a half first time, maybe 2. We found the topic, and then we don't touch it anymore. I don't get the outline. I don't understand the content.
I don't know where he's gonna go with it. None of that. So I learn alongside of anybody who's listening. This is not I I don't have any research papers or anything in front of me. I haven't seen it. So this is great because you took me on a journey that I really enjoyed taking. So thank you very, very, very much. With that said Thank you for the time. With that said, I wanna thank everyone of you for taking the time out of your day to listen in.
And I do hope that you learned something today that will make a difference in your life and the lives of others. The once again, the Project Moon Hut Foundation is, around because we're looking to establish a box with a roof and a door. One day, you'll all share the whole story. But there's a story to the box with a roof and a door, and it was named eventually 2 years later by NASA staff. They called it project Moon Hut, a box to the roof and a door.
And we look to accelerate the development of the Earth and space based ecosystem, then to turn the endeavors, the paradigm shifting, thinking, the innovations back on Earth to improve how we live on Earth for all species. We're not about humans. We're about all species and continuing on. So let me ask you, do, do you have a what's the single best way to connect with you? The single best way to connect with me would be just my regular email, and my personal email, would be, oharlev.
That's oharlev@gmail.com. Perfect. And, of course, I would love to we would love to connect with you. You can reach me at and I'm gonna change it. This is the first time I'm gonna say it this way is it's david@moonhot.org. I've always said project moonhut.org, but we've also got the URL moonhut.org. So it's david@moonhut.org. You can connect with us on Twitter at at project moonhut or at goldsmith is mine. We're on LinkedIn. We're on Facebook.
We're on Instagram at, the miss at project moon hut is Instagram, and you could just look that up. You'll find it everywhere. So that said, I'm David Goldsmith, and thank you for listening.