One World Cup Cinderella story ends in heartbreak, another continues — off one of the gutsiest plays ever

With every passing minute, Brendan, I'm thinking that we are going to win. And here's the other thing I'm thinking. I'm thinking that if we do win, I think we might win the World Cup.

I love this. I love this, Rebecca. This naked display of hope. Go on.

I know. God, what am I doing? I mean, let's be honest.

From Apple News and Meadowlark Media, I'm Brendan Hunt.

And I'm Rebecca Lowe. And this is "After the Whistle."

Reminder, there will probably be adult language.

Although we're a lot happier today because everything's nice and calm. We've moved on from USA. England is still in it, and the quarterfinals are set.

We will talk Cinderellas and Panenkas.

Let's not forget about "Dutch in 60." Needless to say, the tournament continues to heat up, and we are here to take you right through it. Let's go Brendan.

Let's go.

Should we start the pod by popping around the grounds for the games that have happened while we've taken our very small hiatus?

Yes, please. Let us pop first to that ground where Croatia defeated Japan on penalty kicks.

Oh, so disappointed for Japan. I really wanted them to go through. I did. And when it went to penalties, I didn't fancy them, Brendan, either. I just think that, you know, they don't have a huge amount of experience in that at this point in a World Cup, penalties. Croatia are so experienced. They're like a bunch of old boys. They've been here. They've done it, you know, and I didn't fancy them. And then, I mean, they were the worst penalties I've ever seen. They were terrible, weren't they?

They were the worst penalties you'd ever seen at the time. We'll see if that has changed. But yeah, Japan finally scores in the first half and then can't hold onto it. So, bit of a shame. But, you know, Croatia, they go about doing their business.

And I just have to bring it back in, though, that my one to watch, you know, my breakout star from the start of the pod, Brendan, was Japan’s Kaoru Mitoma. And he almost won it, didn't he, in extra time? Can you imagine how annoying I would've been if he'd taken Japan? I mean, I'm annoying in the best of times, but if I got my breakout star to take them into the quarterfinals…

Oh, you would've graduated to insufferable.

Correct. But Croatia… I was thinking about this after the game. And I looked up their population, Brendan, 3.8 million, right? So, they're a country of less than 4 million, and yet they keep doing it, don't they? They keep on producing football teams of a standard that gets them deep into these tournaments. And I just would love… You know how Holland… It's happened in Holland. It's happened in Germany. Other countries’ coaches go to visit to see why are they so good? It's happened down the years at all different countries. I think somebody needs to go to Croatia because I know they're maybe probably not gonna win the World Cup. But how are they managing to produce a team from four million people that can do that?

It's really nuts. I mean, you know, for years people have talked about how Holland has done such an incredible job making three finals as a country of only 16 or 17 million. And here's Croatia with a quarter of that and has only existed for 31 years. And they made a semi in '98. They made a final in 2018. Now they're back in the quarters. They are officially a footballing power.

Yes.

Our second match of the day was Brazil-South Korea, for which we were hoping for a bit more pluck from our South Korean friends. Sadly, they were de-plucked quickly as Brazil went up 4-nil by the half. Yikes.

Brendan, it was incredible. It was incredible. I have two things I wanna ask you about. One, can we just get our opinions on the dancing celebrations? Because I have heard a lot of people loving it, and I've heard a lot of curmudgeons out there saying they were mickey-taking, as we would say in England. You know, they were making fun. They shouldn't have done that six minutes in after goal number one, you know. It was all too contrived and then getting the coach involved. No, no, no. My opinion, that's what football's about. This is Brazil's culture. Put smiles on faces. It made me love them even more. Of course, they should go and do their dances. I mean, obviously if they do it against England, might actually hate them, but watching them do it, I'm like, this is what it's about right here.

Yeah. First of all, I think any team is allowed to do it. But in particular, you're gonna stop Brazil from doing their goal celebrations at a World Cup? No, no. That is past curmudgeon. That is into Scrooge. That is into Clint Eastwood in "Grand Torino" territory. We don't want to hang out with those people ever under any circumstance.

Richarlison. Goal number three. For me, I actually think that might be my favorite goal of the tournament so far because the way he used his head, what, three times to try and get the ball back under control and then took it away from the defender, played a one-two and finished it off… You've gotta wonder why Antonio Conte isn't playing him every single game for Tottenham. He is the reason why Everton is still a Premier League team. I'll be honest. He was so good for Everton. I mean, not this good, but so good. He is one of those names coming out of this World Cup that I think has performed better than anyone thought he would. For me, that goal was just sumptuous.

[LAUGHS] Wow. Dropping the S-bomb. I like that. Bit of a sidebar, but I dunno if you saw Louis van Gaal’s quote today, but in wonderful old man in "Gran Torino" fashion, Louis van Gaal said, pretty much unprompted, [IMITATING LOUIS VAN GAAL] "Uh, yeah, the Brazil goal was good, but, um, our goal was better. Um, I don't know why people are talking about it. We play the same as Brazil. I think we are better than Brazil. So, um, yeah. Why… Look at us." [CHUCKLES, SPEAKING NORMALLY] Which I find deeply adorable.

I love it. We'll see, Louis.

So, as of yesterday, then, the six teams that had made it to the quarterfinals were the Netherlands, Argentina, France, England, Croatia and Brazil. Not a Cinderella in sight. And then we get to today with two Cinderellas hoping to dance further yet. Morocco against Spain. Switzerland against Portugal. Let's do the second game first.

Switzerland-Portugal? OK. So, the line coming out of there, of course, as soon as the team sheets dropped, were that Ronaldo has been dropped to the bench. And it obviously, at 6-1, the final score, of course, it was the right decision. But I even felt it was the right decision before because as much as I love him and I love everything that he's given our wonderful sport, that Portugal team is dynamic without him, more dynamic.

Stacked!

He is… Yeah, stacked. Using the supermarket stacked shelf analogy. It is, and Ronaldo is like a passenger in that supermarket just like hanging around, just not moving. He was being carried. And I'm really glad… Did you see the poll that came out in one of the sports newspapers in Portugal that 70% of the fans didn't want him to start? So, the manager really couldn't lose because he's gonna upset one man or he's gonna upset a lot of people, and he did the right thing. But from the score line… But I think most people thought it was the right thing when the team sheet came out. You know, he came on. He took that goal, lovely. It was offside, but he did have a lovely finish. He can still play a part. No problem. But you can't start games. You're done. You're done, Cristiano.

[LAUGHS] Especially as they get deeper and the competition will get stronger. And the competition, you would've thought perhaps it would be for the second World Cup in a row, another Iberian derby, which we had in the group stage quite memorably in the last World Cup. But no. Morocco said no. Morocco win a nil-nil draw on penalties. Spain taking even worse penalties than Japan did yesterday, I'd dare say. Shockingly, shockingly bad. So, Hakimi of PSG scores the winning penalty. Hakimi, born in Spain to two Moroccan parents, chose to represent Morocco instead of the country of his birth, scores the winning penalty with a Panenka. Already badass enough. I love a Panenka, but also a Panenka isn't truly Panenka unless it's a shootout-winning Panenka. So, that is a proper Panenka. And then on top of that, when he's done, he does a penguin dance. He did a Panenka penguin. Yeah. Unprecedented.

Yeah, he did. [CHUCKLES] He did.

He did a Penguenka.

[LAUGHS] I love it. How can somebody be so cool in, you know, arguably the biggest moment in his country's history? He takes that penalty, and he does a Panenka. I mean, that takes balls beyond balls, doesn't it?

Yeah, absolutely.

For anyone listening, Brendan, Panenka as a penalty is what?

A Panenka is a penalty that is not shot toward the sides where you're trying to avoid the goalkeeper, you know, top bins, top corner, what have you. But instead, you shoot it right down the middle, and actually you just chip it. You just kind of go [IMITATES THE SOUND OF KICKING THE BALL]. And the ball slowly, effortlessly, drops like a feather into the spot where the goalkeeper once was. But the goalkeeper, who is of course, you know, wound tight as a spring, has already jumped one direction in anticipation of a shot that would go to the sides. And the goalkeeper is forced to watch in slow motion as they are diving away from this perfectly catchable ball that is landing in the spot where they once were. It is named the Panenka because the very first ever penalty shootout that decided a championship was in the 1976 European Championship final where West Germany, who were World Cup champions at that point, played Czechoslovakia, as they were called back then. And Antonín Panenka steps up to take the potentially winning shot, which would be the first trophy for his country. They had lost a World Cup final, I think, a long time ago, but did not win a major trophy. And against the mighty Germany, he just chips it. Just chips it right there. The goalkeeper, I believe Sepp Maier, goes jumping the other way. Czechoslovakia wins the European championship, and Panenka’s name now lives in lore, and rightfully so.

Indeed. That's a great story. Again, your commitment to history, Brendan, is really quite astounding. I didn't know that entire story, but I love it. Now, the only problem with a Panenka is where it goes wrong. Now, if you've ever seen a player take a Panenka, and you can imagine as Brendan so brilliantly explained, there ain't no pace on this ball. Right? It is a loop-de-loop. It is a little chippity chip. And, if the keeper decides to stay where he is, right, the most hilarious thing happens when the keeper… It just falls into his arms, and it suddenly goes from being what could be a most arrogant, ice in your veins, cheeky, ballsy, move to looking like a total plonker. Correct?

Yeah. I'm just guessing that if you get on YouTube and you search "horrible Panenkas" or some other adjective in front of "Panenkas," there's ample footage for you to run through. Someone had one fairly recently that I can't remember.

Yeah. In the Premier League, there was one. I forget who it was. It'll come back to me. There was a player who took a Panenka for Fulham. Fulham were threatened with relegation, and he took a Panenka… He took a penalty, and he did a Panenka. And it just like, landed in the keeper's hands. And you're like, "Mate, what?" There is a time, and there is a place. The problem is a Panenka that goes wrong is like hindsight. It's like the, you know… It's like the Monday morning quarterback. It's weird. It's so easy to say, "Why would you do a Panenka" because you could have said the same thing with Hakimi. Because if he had done that and the keeper stayed where he was, he would be vilified for the rest of his life doing that in a… I mean, my gosh, that's why it takes such balls. I would… If I was doing a penalty, wouldn't in a million years do that in a gazillion years because you're putting on another storyline to your already very important storyline if it goes wrong. Ademola Lookman was the player. Sorry. Ademola Lookman. Had to just… popped into my brain, it did. Ademola Lookman. Look it up. YouTube it. Not the best moment.

Afterwards, his coach took him aside and said, "Hey, Ademola. Look, man. You can't be doing this."

[LAUGHS] I knew that was coming. I knew that was coming. I almost just jumped in and did it for you.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Felt great. Felt great.

OK. So, why were you so confident? Because with our predictions the other day, you had Morocco to beat Spain, which I hadn't heard too many times. Why were you so confident?

A bit of feeling like Spain were on a downward trajectory as much as feeling like Morocco were probably legit. Also, I had in my head… You know, credit where it's due. I believe Grant Wahl on his preview of the World Cup had Morocco in the round of 16. And he was right about that, and I'm like, "All right. Well, shoot." I don't wanna watch that much. I know a few of their players from their travails through, you know, European clubs. But yeah, super fun to watch. Boufal in particular is a guy who I kind of fell in love with today.

But you remember him at Southampton. It's such a shame.

I don't.

Oh, well you see, that's why, right? Because he went to Southampton, and he would get a couple of minutes here and there. He was a bit of what we would call a "Fancy Dan," and most people didn't think there was much of an end product. He would show these flickers of trickery and flickers of magic. But then, there wasn't really end product. But I'm kind of thinking now probably because the rest of the team were rubbish in comparison, he is great to watch. And I think who knows? He could get himself another move after this World Cup. Talking of another move… Talking of a move, just going back to Portugal for a second. Of course, the guy who comes in for Cristiano Ronaldo, Gonçalo Ramos, 21 years of age, plays for Benfica, four games now I think for the Portuguese national team. But loads of goals for the under 21s. And I think that Ramos… And oh, he played so well. It was just brilliant to see a young man step up and really break out in that game. I think he's a classic example of a player who's gonna get a big move. Because as great that Benfica is in the Portuguese top level of football in that top league, Primeira Liga I think it's called… He's exactly the kind of player that the Premier League and La Liga and Bundesliga managers are looking at today right this second and thinking, "We could do with him."

To replace a legend in the lineup and get a hat trick and an assist… Because why not? I mean that is cuckoo-pants. That is storybook stuff. That is "Roy of the Rovers," to put it in terms you might understand.

Correct. "Roy of the Rovers." Roy Ramos, as we might now refer to him moving on. Can we go back a day or two? I mean, goodness only knows which day this took place on. It's like when you're on vacation when it's in a World Cup, and it's like Christmas all at the same time. You sort of lose track of what day it is and what day things happen and where you are in life. Argentina and Australia happened after we recorded the last podcast, so we really haven't touched on that. Argentina going through as we thought they probably would. But Messi… I just feel… [SIGHS] My goodness. I mean, what an honor it is. I know that some of these stars at the World Cup, Brendan, are aging, and he's one of them. But 35, he's not over the hill, but to be able to just watch him is magic. And I just wanted to get his absolute stats. Now I know that he's played a thousand games. It's a lovely number, Brendan, to kind of look down the line in what else he's done in those 1,000 games, right? So, I'm just gonna throw these out there just for the people listening who don't happen to know his stats. One thousand games, 789 goals, 338 assists. Silence.

Well, I mean, was that a question?

No. One being one of those annoying people that just… statements rather than a question. No, it's a good time, isn't it, to just have a little mini reflection on that.

Well, absolutely, and it's pretty nuts that the Messi–Ronaldo rivalry that, you know, largely only exists for us continues in its way even on opposite sides of the bracket. And the Messi meter appears to be shooting off at a faster clip than the Ronaldo radar, which is plummeting, and plummeting rapidly.

It is. It is.

The feature we teased in our first episode that we've never ever gone back to. Please, all you big fans of the show who remember 10 episodes ago, we thank you for [LAUGHS] bringing that back and joining us on this journey.

[LAUGHS] I feel like that's a slight pattern. I do think I remember promising "Dutch in 60" every episode and "Optimist, Pessimist" every episode, and we've just scattered them. We've not been consistent. I'm OK with that. Yeah.

Yeah. No. We don't wanna get into a rut. Keep people on their toes.

All right. Now we have quarterfinals that are set. Eight teams, four matches. Almost all the matches are absolute slugfests between giants that I cannot wait for. And then of course, the one Cinderella remains. Now, I saw a video the other day that I think might be a part of the World Cup experience that a lot of people are going through who are just getting into the World Cup right now. That being Glennon Doyle [LAUGHS] was filmed by her wife, Abby Wambach, crying as she watched Japan lose on penalties. She couldn't believe the emotions of it. She couldn't believe she had to watch all these sad people. She gets mad at Abby. She's like, "Why did you make me do this?" Et cetera, et cetera. Because they get attached to these Cinderellas coming outta the group stage. But people, here's the thing. In the World Cup, Cinderella rarely gets far in the knockout stages. I had a look through some history here, Rebecca. Will you be impressed with my research here in a second? Are you ready to be impressed?

I mean, incredibly. I mean, the commitment to the cause, Brendan, it's a thing to behold. Continue.

Thank you very much. All right. Looking just at semifinalists. Semifinalists through World Cup history are almost never teams that have not been a semifinalist before. We have not had a semifinalist that was not previously a semifinalist since 2002, when Turkey and South Korea both made the semifinals. Now, I should just couch this slightly. By semifinalists, I also mean a final four team because there have been years where the four met with as such where there was no actual semifinal, but there was a final four. They've experimented. They've dabbled. They've made mistakes. They're about to make one next World Cup. Let's not talk about it. And then after that, like '98, Croatia made the semifinal. But you could argue that they'd made it already before when they were part of Yugoslavia. '94 Bulgaria, '86 Belgium, then all the way back to '74 for Holland and Poland, then all the way back to '66 for Portugal. It's just very, very rare for people to make it particularly far. So, you really have to appreciate how far people get. Also, by the way, American fans, they'll be put off by this. We made a semifinal in 1930, so we're good.

Can I just go back to the quarterfinal match ups you’re talking about? So, it's Netherlands against Argentina, Croatia-Brazil.

Yes, here we go.

England-France and Morocco-Portugal. So, out of those eight, of course, the Cinderella… If you want an underdog, if you want to look for a team that you know is going to give you that unbridled, underdog joy if they get through is gonna be Morocco, isn't it?

Yes, absolutely. I mean, there are teams that are, you know, a bit of a favorite more than the other. You know, certainly Croatia is not gonna be favored over Brazil. But there's still, as I said before, a proper footballing power. England not quite a favorite against France, but they're still England. So, yeah. Morocco is the only like, proper underdog I'd say.

What a game that's gonna be, by the way, Morocco-Portugal. I mean, I thought Morocco have been, as you say, so impressive. And yet, Portugal just put six past Switzerland. I mean, they're all… This is when it's like Christmas every single time there's a game. It's just…

Yeah.

I mean, these are gigantic matches. And then the final four… I mean, we are now, aren't we, rubbing our hands with glee at this point in the World Cup? Which by the way, so far, this World Cup has been brilliant in terms of the football, in terms of the surprises, in terms of some of the goals and the storylines. It has been nothing short of magic, and it can only get better with those four huge quarterfinals. And so, now Netherlands moving forward against Argentina in the quarterfinals, it is time to bring back the feature loved by so many, mainly Brendan, and it is called "Dutch in 60." My friend, I give you one minute to update us. Give us your thoughts on the latest going on inside the camp.

OK. All you need to know is that Holland's playing in Argentina. And yeah, Argentina has Messi, but here's the thing. Anytime Holland plays Argentina, it is usually a pretty big game. The last time they played, it was a World Cup semifinal. Pretty big, right? Now, of course, that game ended in a nil-nil draw and a penalty shootout and was actually kind of a drudge. But ignore that. The first time they played in the World Cup was in 1974 when the great Dutch team of Johan Cruyff, the original Oranje, the original "Clockwork Orange" that won the hearts and minds of people all around the world with their beautiful play. And they thumped Argentina 4-0. It was a real, like, you know, announcement of intent. Then in 1978, they played in the final in Argentina. That was Holland's second consecutive final against the host country. And they took it all the way to extra time before going down to Argentina and Mario Kempes. They didn't play in a World Cup again until 1998. They played in a quarterfinal, and it was looking like it was gonna be another extra time affair until Dennis Bergkamp, in the ninety-something minute scored one of the all-time goals of all time that you should see. Dennis Bergkamp, Google it, and the great Jack van Gelder, the announcer for Holland, was heard to say, [SHOUTING] "Dennis Bergkamp! Bergkamp! Dennis Bergkamp!"

And hopefully we'll get again such a day. And I'm sorry I went over by about five seconds.

[LAUGHS] Oh, I love it. I love it. I love it. Also, again, you're not just your history knowledge when it comes to football. I think you outdo yourself with that. But just the fact that you even know names of Dutch commentators is astounding to me. I mean, well done.

[LAUGHS] Well, Jack van Gelder is a legend, I mean.

Fantastic Dutch in 70.

Jack van Gelder is the John Motson, the Howard Cosell, the Rebecca Lowe of Holland, and has been for many a year.

[LAUGHS] Steady. Bless your heart. Can I ask you then? That's the rivalry, which is fascinating, and it's gonna be such a good game. I think you've got an excellent chance. I'm not sure you're, you know, super, super underdogs in this by any stretch of the imagination. Agree?

Yeah, agree. I mean certainly, you know, Argentina has the bigger name here and I think perhaps the story that'll be more appealing to the neutral. But you know, Argentina, of course, started this tournament with a real bad stutter losing to Saudi Arabia. But like, Argentina have worked very hard to get back to this point. Like, they immediately had to go to 11 for every match afterwards. And it still feels like Netherlands, they're either just not that interesting Netherlands team right now compared to teams of the past, or that they just haven't even had to kick it into second gear yet. So, we don't quite know if Netherlands have more to show, and we don't quite know if Argentina is still, as they've been doing from match to match, getting a little bit better, a little bit better, a little bit better. Has either team reached their ceiling? What will they draw out of each other here?

Can't wait. I absolutely cannot wait for Messi against van Dijk as well. I just think that is going to be great.

You heard it here! Croatia-Brazil. Foes either one of us think Croatia has any real chance of winning? I mean, I think they could put up a fight. But like, [SIGHS, LAUGHS] Brazil. Oh, my Lord. They look imperious right now.

Yeah. I think Croatia can put up a fight. I don't necessarily think they're gonna be outplayed, but then to be honest, Brazil can outplay anybody if they're on the day like they were the other day. The other day, when they scored, what was it, four goals against South Korea? Four by what, 35 minutes on the clock, 4-1 being the final score? That for me was kind of a moment where I could imagine children around the world of four, five, six years of age turning on the TV and witnessing that first half performance and that being the moment that they decide this game is for them. That was like a Brazil of Socrates level. That was like back in the day. I mean, having watched Brazil at every World Cup over the last 20 or so years, a bit longer, thirty or so years, I haven't seen that too many times. Brazil have this reputation. Even people who don't know that much about international football know that Brazil are good. But they haven't always, in my lifetime anyway, or in my last 30 years, haven't always shown us that. But that 35 minutes showed us what Brazil are all about. And I think that was a seminal moment in this World Cup, and in World Cups generally, where Brazil are concerned. And Croatia, I don't think have the midfield, a forward line, to worry Brazil. Brazil's front six will just, I think, run them ragged. I mean, I think this is gonna be pretty straightforward for Brazil.

It's funny you say that about Brazil. I mean, you think that's really spot on about, you know, the way they can really capture people's imaginations when they are the Brazil that we have in our heads, you know? For people new to the Brazil phenomenon, yes, they have won five World Cups, but like, as recently as '94 to 2002, they made three straight finals, winning two of them. You kind of know going into a tournament whether or not this is going to be a formidable Brazil or not. And this is one of those times. I mean, that squad came out, you know, with something like 12 attackers and just one line of defenders, plus Dani Alvez, and I was like, "Oh. Oh, hold on. This could be the kind of Brazil that we're all into." And yeah, we have not seen this in 20 years, and we haven't even really been able to anticipate it in 20 years. You're not [UNCLEAR] a couple of big results here and there. You know, they were running pretty strong in that group stage in 2014 before Neymar went down but then suffered the worst semifinal loss imaginable when Germany beat them 7-1. So, this is the Brazil that we have in our heads, but not the Brazil we've seen.

And I feel like as well, over the years, there's always been sort of one player, whether it's Ronaldo, Brazilian Ronaldo, or Ronaldinho, or just one player. Obviously, Neymar is often seen as that one player that can unlock the door, but this team feels like it's a tidal wave of players. It feels like it's spread around the team. Like, I go back to what I said at the beginning. Richarlison, for me, I knew he had talent and skill and trickery at Tottenham and at Everton, but what he's doing on the world stage now is proving a real point. And it's not just him. So, I like the fact that this Brazil team is a real team as well. Not just a bunch of individual starts.

Alright, so then you’ve got… Oh, we'll save England-France. We'll save England-France. Morocco-Portugal. I just… Now, again, I only kind of thought Morocco would win against Spain because of my doubts about Spain. I have no doubts about Portugal. So, I think this great run for Morocco is unlikely to continue unless they can get another nil-nil situation. And again, they have the players, but oof, Portugal again, stacked.

OK. So, Portugal for me, I agree. There'll be absolutely no problem. When that squad was announced, I remember thinking, "Wow, this is gonna be a good tournament for Portugal." But because I got sucked in like the rest of the world to the Ronaldo narrative, you kind of forgot about the rest of the team. And again, every game they play is about Ronaldo, including today's, and I feel like today was a turning point because he wasn't in the team, and they won six-one. And so, I have absolutely no doubts that Portugal are gonna go through. No doubts at all.

And now, England-France. Where you at?

OK. [INHALES DEEPLY]

Take a breath. Take your time.

Brendan, I'm in a good place. I'm not gonna lie.

OK, good, good, good. Love to hear it.

I worry about our nation's mentality, right? And our team's mentality that… Actually, you know what? Maybe not the team, but the mentality of the nation is that we are always caught between, "Oh, we're really, really good." But we get to a stage where we come up against bigger teams, better teams, bigger countries, you know, higher up the rankings who've had more success than us like France, and we fear them. And I'm just not sure we need to fear France. The more I think about it, you know, Kyle Walker, well the whole back line… Obviously, you're gonna have to deal with him Mbappé, but Kyle Walker probably the most, if he plays a four. Now, I think he'll probably play a five with Kyle Walker as the right-sided center back alongside Trippier. Trippier's got pace, Walker's got pace. I mean, Trippier's not had a brilliant tournament. It's not gonna be easy. But I think that we can deal, just about, with Mbappé. And with every passing minute, Brendan, I'm thinking that we are going to win. And here's the other thing I'm thinking. I'm thinking that if we do win, I think we might win the World Cup.

Ooh. I love this.

But let me just say one thing.

I love this, Rebecca, this naked display of hope. Go on.

I know. God, what am I doing? I mean, let's be honest. But there are two ways, right, to approach this game of football against France. And I'll probably bring this up again closer to the game towards the end of the week. But there is that… Go out and try and win it, first of all, and then lock it up, OK? So, play an attacking line up. Attack the game. Start quickly. Would be nice for the first time this tournament. And then lock the game up. Or try and stay in the game. Play a little bit more conservative, little bit more Gareth Southgate, and then bring on the game changers. Now, if you look at what Brazil did, if you look at what Portugal did, but especially what Brazil did, they go out and they win the game and then they just rest up in the second half. I would love England to do that. I would love England to take it to France in the first half, quick football and play all that attacking flare that we have and really shock them. Because nobody is going to think England are gonna come out the traps fast. France, I don't think are gonna be particularly scared of England, but that's because they haven't seen the England that I'm talking about, the England with all of these attacking players. So, if we can do that, great. He's not gonna do that. So, I'm not sure why I've even mentioned it. He is going to play more conservative, and then if we need a goal, if we're 1-nil down with 20 minutes to go, he's gonna throw on Grealish, and he is gonna throw on Foden, or if he's not starting Foden, Saka, and if Sterling is back, he'll throw on him. Something like that to try and then win the game or try and get a draw and take it to extra time. So, the more I think about Gareth Southgate over the last few days, his record is astounding. His leadership is world class. I love the bloke, and I wish him nothing but the best. There is nothing that I would be happier about than for him to be the World Cup winning manager for the first time since Sir Ralph Ramsey in 1966. And he does plot his way through a tournament well. Conservatively, but well. But the problem has remained in the last two tournaments that when push really comes to shove and we get to that final moment, that final decision, that final substitution, that choice, that's where he gets it wrong. So, let's hope that those two tournaments, he's learnt his lesson, Brendan. And he's learned and he's soaked it all in and he will make the right choice at the right time. Because he's making right choices so much at the moment. It's just that very final crucial, pivotal choice has to be right. But to answer your question, following on from a five-minute side note, I am as confident [LAUGHS] as I've been. Although let me just caveat that. It's only Tuesday.

I mean, bravo, and I say bravo to your heart and the fact that you shared it with the world in this way. I have only one minor quibble, which is to the notion of England, like, getting a hot start early. In the 2018 semifinal and the 2020 final, they had a goal in the first four minutes in both of those, and it didn't work out either time. So, we’ll see about that. But in neither game did they press the issue though.

Well, exactly. And that's the point. You're spot on. Great start. Brilliant Trippier free kick. And then in 2018, and then the Luke Shaw goal in 2021, great. But then what do we do? We sat off. Now if you're Pep Guardiola, best manager in the world, or even if you're a Brazil manager right now, you don't go 1-nil up and then sit off. You go 1-nil up, and then you go 2-nil up, and you try and finish the game. You know, Pep doesn't let the opposition have the ball and then sit off at 1-nil. He never does that. And why is he the best manager in the world? Because he goes and finishes teams off. So, if we were to go up, you know, score too early and go up 1-nil after five minutes, I'm actually gonna be terrified that then it's gonna be 11 men behind the ball, and we're gonna try and hold on until the 90th minute. And that is actually there what I was talking about in terms of Southgate’s decision making. Were we lucky enough to go 1-nil up, please don't sit back. Let's go and try and finish that game. Let's not have history repeat itself because a sign of a really good manager, of course, is learning from your mistakes. Sign of a good anything. Learn from your mistakes. So please, Gareth, just bear that in mind. If we go 1-nil up by the way, after five minutes.

[LAUGHS] The problem with all of this talk though, and all of this hope is it goes against Kylian Mbappé and Kylian Mbappé cares not for your hope. He cares not for your tactics. He is a one-man wrecking crew, and he's coming.

I know, I know. I know, Brendan. I know. I know. I have nothing else to say, but I know.

OK. So, just to wrap things very quickly up, because people pop in and out of the pod, for those who haven't heard predictions, we are, you know… Brendan and I are allowed very much allowed to change our minds as the tournaments unfolds because, you know, that's normal, natural, and totally understandable. And a woman especially is allowed to change her mind. But these four quarterfinals, we're gonna just quickly run through. We'll get our quick one-word answers, and then we'll talk. What do we think? Semifinal? What do we think? Final? And winners, right? Just bear in mind, I had Brazil to win it. He had Argentina to win it, but let's just talk quarterfinals quickly. So, Netherlands-Argentina you're going for?

Argentina.

Me, too. Croatia-Brazil. You go for?

Brazil.

Me too. England-France. You're going for?

France. And I'm sorry.

Mean. Really mean. I'm going for England. Morocco-Portugal. You're going for?

Portugal.

Me, too. OK. That means it'll be Argentina-Brazil in one half of the draw in that semifinal. You're going for who? Argentina or Brazil?

Got to stick with my original choice of Argentina, but that'll be a game that we will never forget.

OK. I know. I can't wait for that. I'm gonna go for Brazil in that. So right now, you have Argentina going to the final. I have Brazil going to the final. Other half of the draw. England… OK. So, you've gone with France. So, you think it'll be France-Portugal. Who will win France-Portugal?

France.

OK. I'm going for England against Portugal. England will win against Portugal. You can see where this is going, can't you? And then we get to the final.

Love it. Just let it out.

And you are going the final will be Argentina against France. And you're going with Argentina. Are you still going with Argentina to win the whole thing?

I'm sticking to my guns. Argentina finds a way.

OK. So, you've gone right from the beginning, and you've kept the saying, which is absolutely admirable. I, on the other hand, change like the wind, and I am going for a Brazil-England final. I did have Brazil, circa four weeks ago, and I'm now changing it, Brendan, and it's happening. And that naked hope reappears and shows itself once more. And I'm going what on earth am I doing? But I'm doing it. I'm going for England to win the World Cup. I'm just doing what everyone has done down the years, and it ends in tears. But I'm doing it. England to win the World Cup.

Oh, it's coming home. Oh, it's coming home.

I think it might be.

Oh, come on England. Three lions.

All right. So, I've now got two days off to change my mind on that. And I'll see you back on Friday where I'll tell you that Brazil, in fact, will win the World Cup. And we've got loads coming up towards the end of the week as we build up to those quarterfinals. Am I correct with that, Brendan?

That is correct. That it's very correct. Enjoy your two days off, people. We will be back. If you're loving the show, subscribe on Apple Podcasts and be sure to rate and review, as it really helps other people find the show.

And for 'round the clock World Cup News plus scores and standings, follow along on the Apple News app in My Sports where available.

We'll be back with more World Cup coverage right here in your podcast feed Friday. See you then, Rebecca.

See you then, mate.