“Messi magic” sends Argentina to the World Cup final. Plus: all about the Gio Reyna controversy, and special guest Seth Meyers!

How much do you want Messi to win this World Cup? And how much are you like the rest of the world, it now seems? Do you hate Ronaldo now?

So, I wanna stress something before I say this answer. This comes from a very irrational place, and I understand how unlikeable it will make me sound. I don't want anything good for either of them.

It's not that I don't want happiness in the world, but neither of them are capable of bringing any joy to me.

I love it. That's honest. I'm OK with that. So, who do you want to win the World Cup now then? France, Morocco, or Argentina?

I don't care.

From Apple News and Meadowlark Media, I'm Brendan Hunt.

And I'm Rebecca Lowe. And this is "After the Whistle."

Reminder, there will be adult language.

It is official. Leo Messi is in the final of the World Cup. Immediate reactions are on the way.

We'll also chat a little Gio Reyna, Gregg Berhalter controversy. And later, we are joined by the one and only Seth Meyers. Do not miss out.

Rebecca, here we are with a finalist. We have one of our two World Cup 2022 finalists.

And doesn't it sort of feel right? It's almost like Leo Messi's in the final of the World Cup, all is right with the world.

Yeah, because like three of the last four World Cups have been… You kind of wait for the moment when he gets knocked out, and it's like, "Aw, poor Messi. He's not what we thought he was. Wah wah." No, it's really all four because he still lost in 2014 even though they made it to the final. I'm just so tired of that story, you know? And he's brought us so much joy. I'm quite keen to see him walk away with this trophy.

You know what? I think I might be going down that road as well. I mean, I do think Morocco winning it would be a story for the ages. But watching him today, Brendan, I started to come around to your way of thinking of, actually, this is the bigger story.

Correct.

And sometimes in life, it's just written. When he stood over that penalty in the first half, he looked to me like he was almost… There was not a single other important thing in his world, and there won't be for another week. It was like that face of his. It was like, that's all that he cares about and has cared about for a number of years, certainly, since he left Barcelona. I think I heard somebody on the radio the other day describe him as Argentina's number one, his number two, his number three, his number four. PSG's his number seven. That's basically how important it is to him right now. And when he stood over that penalty, and I'm not gonna lie, I had a couple of Kane flashbacks. I thought if it can happen to Kane, well, I don't know, gonna happen to Messi? If you're the greatest of all time, you step up in those moments. You step up. And he did. And what a penalty that was.

Oh, my gosh. And against the best penalty stopper at this World Cup, who guessed the right way, too. But [CHUCKLES] Messi cares not. That was exciting. And then, as like a side project, he decided to get young Julián Álvarez into the race for the Golden Boot by letting him have the next two. Can we talk about that first Álvarez goal, by the way?

Oh, yeah. I love it. It was just everything, wasn't it?

It was a beautiful mess. He picks up the ball. He sort of ends up with a careening ball at the halfway line, just runs straight up the gut. [CHUCKLES] The ball bounces off a Croatian defender, and then another Croatian defender had the chance to clear, and then it happens to bounce off Álvarez's stomach. [CHUCKLES]

You know Barney Ronay who writes for "The Guardian"?

Yes. Oh, he's great.

I mean, a wordsmith if ever there was one. He described it on Twitter. I don't know if you saw it, Brendan. If anyone didn't see this tweet, it's brilliant. This is how he described that goal. He said, "That was like Maradona '86 recreated after closing time at the pub using wheely bins and a tennis ball."

It's just like… It was so true, wasn't it? It was a bit of lark, a bit of this, off this, off that, back to me, and goal.

Yeah. I was reminded, after Alvarez's brace, of an anecdote that was going around before the World Cup that I don't think we've mentioned here, but Álvarez is at Manchester City as of this year. People are focusing on Haaland, Erling Haaland, more than they are on Mr. Álvarez, but he's having his moments. But there was a training session before the World Cup where Álvarez is sort of walking by, and Pep is talking with the Portuguese contingent in Man City and with Rodri who is Spanish. And they were apparently, not Pep but the other players, were talking about who's gonna win the World Cup. Would it be Portugal, or would it be France, or would it be Spain? And Guardiola just says, "Well, you know who has the best chance?" And they're like, who? All he did was point at Álvarez. And now look, [CHUCKLES] we have Argentina in the final.

Really, did he really? What a great story.

Yeah. Yeah. Pretty cool.

And the other thing I've seen on social media since the game is that picture that's going round of 10 years ago when Álvarez asked Messi when he was 10 years of age for a selfie. So, there's a picture of Messi, age 25, with Álvarez, age 10, and then it's side by side with them celebrating in a World Cup semifinal. I mean, is that not the most mind blow… I love things like that so, so much. Don't you?

I mean, it makes you appreciate all the more his composure in this. He looks like he belongs. I mean, he's in ahead of Lautaro Martínez, Paulo Dybala. And no one seems to mind. Like, he comes off the pitch, and those guys he has bumped from the starting lineup are like, happily embracing it. It's pretty fantastic.

I would say good luck, Pep Guardiola now though because were he to go and lift this World Cup or even star in the final and lose… After how Álvarez has played in this World Cup, he can't warm the bench from Manchester City, can he when he goes back to the Etihad? But he doesn't really like to play Álvarez and Haaland 'cause then he loses out on one of his many creative midfielders. It's gonna be interesting. It's a nice problem to have, as they say, for Pep Guardiola. But he's hardly played at all in the first section of the Premier League. He was very much a substitute. Scored a few, but that's gonna be an interesting situation at City for sure.

Yeah. But you know, every once in a while, they gotta play Bournemouth. So…

[CHUCKLES] Under new American ownership, by the way.

Today, or yesterday, it was confirmed. Bill Foley's coming to take over Bournemouth. Yes. No, you're right. They have a number of games, don't they? They play like 60 a season. I just think it would be hard in a really big Premier League game if he goes and lifts the World Cup and maybe scores the winner to not play him.

Gvardiol.

Beautiful. And he's, what, he's 20? And Messi was like, "Yeah, beep, beep. Bye." [LAUGHS] Wasn't he? He was amazing.

[LAUGHS] I mean, he spun him around. He literally spun him around and then left him in the dust. It was like happening in slow motion. Like, oh no. Gvardiol whose praises have been sung far and wide this tournament, and then you're watching… Oh no. Is Messi gonna do that thing? OK. No, Messi's turning around. Oh no. Messi's turning him around. Messi's not gonna get passed. Oh, no Messi got past him. Yeah, had to have been humbling and it will haunt our man Gvardiol for a very, very long time. But you know, better you be humiliated for the third goal of a 3-0 loss as opposed to the third goal of a three-two loss. So hopefully, he won't beat himself up too much.

You know what strikes me, Brendan, as well? I think you said it in the last pod or the one before about Argentina growing into this World Cup, and you're spot on, and you've had them since the beginning to win it.

Thank you. Thank you for noticing. Yes. Yes. That is all true. That is all… Those are all things I said. Yes, correct.

[LAUGHS] You're welcome. I just think the trajectory is so steady, but that performance today was different from the previous however many they've had to play so far at this World Cup. That felt like, "Ah, Argentina are at the World Cup." Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. Because they haven't had that signature dominant victory. They've had a signature gritty victory or two, not least over Holland, despite almost letting that one get pissed away. But this is like, oh, yeah. Right. We arrived fully formed. We are now fully Argentina, and we did not, like, say, Spain, peak too early. We are sending at exactly the right pace up the mountain.

Yeah, yeah. Good luck to 'em. Good luck to them in the final. It's certainly gonna be magic. That's… Whether it's Argentina-France or Argentina-Morocco for two different reasons, it's gonna be magic. Shall we move on, Brendan, to a story that has come out this week, concerning the U.S. men's national team and Gio Reyna? For our audience who've sort of seen it but haven't really heard too much about it, can you give us a quick sort of abridged version of what happened this week between Gregg Berhalter, U.S. Soccer and Gio Reyna?

So, going back to the U.S. performance in the World Cup, Giovanni Reyna was noticeably low on minutes to the complaint of many U.S. fans including right here on this venerable podcast. And there were implications of beef, and there's never been beef before between them as far as anyone knew. So, like, how could there possibly be beef? And Eric Wynalda got involved with some comments, and then he walked back. So, it was all very like, confusing. So, then this week, Berhalter appears at some leadership summit, does one of those Q and As that that they pay handsomely for. And his understanding is that it's a completely off the record, only for the attendees of this event, Q and A.

How many people were at the event roughly, Brendan?

I mean, hundreds.

Yeah. OK. So, that's great. Off the record in front of hundreds of people. Mm-hmm. Carry on.

But maybe only one of them had a phone. Oh, wait. All hundreds of them did? OK. Sure, sure, sure, sure. sure.

And, you know, it's a leadership conference, and so, he's talking about like, challenging moments in leadership. And he refers to a player at this World Cup with whom there was a problem, that this player in the pre-World Cup friendlies that they had behind closed doors… This player was so clearly and conspicuously giving a horrible lack of effort that they almost sent this player home. That it even got to the point where like, other players were noticing. This player may or may not have had like, on pitch scuffles during training with teammates, which is less of a concern because that happens all the time still. And the player apologized to the team. Berhalter went on to add, but we told this player, if you're gonna apologize, you can't just say I'm sorry. You gotta explain why you're doing it. It has to be real apology. And reminder, Reyna is what, 20 years old at this point? And you know, Berhalter was framing it as like a… So, hey. Leadership won out. We did good. That got leaked, and it became very apparent, very soon that he was talking about Gio Reyna. And now, it's an issue of dirty laundry among family getting aired in public. And there's many, many angry reactions going around, including a very terse one from our young Mr. Reyna himself.

Yeah. Gio Reyna issued a statement on his social media, didn't he? Quite a long one, didn't he? Talking… I won't read it to you, but talking all about how he was under the impression from Coach Berhalter that things like what happened stay in the dressing room, and yes, he did behave badly, and yes, he was devastated when, according to Gio, Berhalter told him before the World Cup, before some warmup games over in Qatar, that he was basically not gonna have anything like the amount of minutes he thought he was gonna have at the World Cup. Sorry, can I just stop there? What a weird thing to do. What a weird… Imagine for one second Gareth Southgate walks up to James Maddison, right? And by the way, this isn't a great comparison because Reyna was always gonna get more minutes than Maddison. But imagine if he did, right?

Well, I mean, it's horrible timing. I mean, he's in the middle of a contract negotiation, and then this comes out and it's the double whammy of bad form and clearly getting on the bad side of one of our best players. Certainly, the prospect people are most excited about. And it wasn't just Berhalter who was pissed off. DeAndre Yedlin has come out and had comments that, again, he's not naming names, but he's talking about how there are "some people" who are not locked in, and if you're not locked in, then get out. I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist.

And Brendan, it would never have happened if Berhalter hadn't said to Gio, "You're not really gonna be a part of this World Cup, but thanks for coming." That is a very strange thing to do, is it not? Why would you do it?

Well, if I may put on my well-worn and super comfortable Gregg Berhalter apologist hat, we don't know quite the context of that conversation. I mean, I don't think he like knocked on his door at 11:30 and said like, "Hey, man. Real quick, you're not gonna play much. All right. Goodbye." I hope it would be in the context of a larger conversation.

[CHUCKLES] Tue. That is true. I mean, his reaction's bad.

I don't know. You know? Imagine just saying hey, I'm gonna start Tim Weah. Just so you know, I'm gonna start Tim Weah probably every game. I bet you were hoping you were gonna start.

But why does he have to tell him that? You don't have to tell him that because Tim Weah could get injured after 30 minutes, and then you've pissed him off for no reason. So, we don't need to be telling that. I think this is so big actually that I think it will have an effect on the contract situation that he is apparently in the middle of. Don't you think?

Yeah. I mean, for one thing, and we've talked about this, when you're the national team coach, you're not gonna get in there and make a lot of new signings because you have your talent pool, and that's it. So, job one is make it work with the players you have. And if he's not making it work with Gio Reyna, that's a real problem. Having said that, Reyna is still 20 when this happened, and remember… People are sort of like, forgetting in this context, but there was, a couple years ago during the qualification process for this World Cup, when suddenly it was announced that Weston McKennie had been sent home.

Yeah.

Overnight, you're sent away. Hugely important player. And that, it has to be said, he kind of worked out because he kind of snapped to after that and has been a consummate professional as far as we know, at least for the national team. I mean, he also apparently talks a lot and to the point where his teammates get amused and then annoyed and then amused again. But that's a whole separate issue. So, Berhalter has priors of having a sense of when he has to bring the hammer down. But it's just weird. It's a bad situation. And as someone pointed out on Twitter, I wish I could remember who but it's probably more than one person anyway, this kind of conflict rarely works out well for the coach.

Oh, absolutely. That's why I think it's gonna have an effect. It rarely does. I'm afraid we live in an era on the hold of player power, even more so, unfortunately, stating a fact, where the manager in this particular situation does not have the profile of the player. He just doesn't, and therefore, he won't have as much power. We shall see.

But can I say in the macro, in the macro of this though, I find it wonderful. I find it joyous. I find it meaningful that here we are with a national team controversy of national scope. Like now, everyone in sports is talking about this. This is not some niche thing. Like when McKennie got suspended, they didn't even mention on "PTI." I bet this gets a segment on "PTI." That's how big it is.

Yeah, you're right.

This delights me.

Exactly. That's what we want. We want drama!

It's a real sign of growth.

Yeah, more drama.

[CHUCKLES] Yeah.

Beautiful.

So, bring it, guys. Bring it.

Ladies, gentlemen, here we are on another episode of "After the Whistle" where we have a guest, an esteemed guest. You will know him from "Saturday Night Live," from whence he went to become the host of "Weekend Update," from whence he became a host of "Late Night with Seth Meyers." Please welcome the previously mentioned Seth Meyers!

Thank you, guys, for having me. I'm so excited to be with you.

Oh! We are more than excited.

Have found out that you two have not met.

No.

No.

I'm shocked by this. I thought there'd be like, you know, "NBC" mixers or something.

I know.

The mixers kind of went out the window with the pandemic. They, if anything, don't want you to mix at all.

Yeah, but you both worked for "NBC" for like, nine years.

Yeah. Seth is in Manhattan doing everything at "30 Rock." Am I right, Seth?

Yeah.

Yeah. We're all the way out in bloomin' Connecticut. I mean, lovely. Sorry. Lovely Connecticut.

Blooming is the name of the town.

Correct. Blooming, Connecticut. [LAUGHS] What an amazing town that would be, by the way.

Well, Seth, beside your esteemed credits and your known track record for entertaining America, you are also pretty damn big soccer fan. And the big reason about how I became a soccer fan. Now, you even, if I remember correctly, you were attending matches as far back as the '94 World Cup?

'94 World Cup, I went with our friend Pete Grosz to a game in New York. I believe Italy-Bulgaria, a pretty stale game that was won by a Baggio goal, or maybe not. Somebody else… I should have Googled it. But the fact is I did not catch soccer fever that day. It was the '94 American World Cup. I'm sure there were a lot of people there who were big fans, but I don't think it had fully caught on in the States the way that I'm hoping the next World Cup here will. So, it wasn't until I moved to Amsterdam where Brendan and I met that I became a soccer fan.

And so, Brendan talks of the time there and how he kind of got sucked in really by the culture. And it'd be interesting to know whether or not that was the Netherlands or whether that would've been any European country 'cause we're all so crazy about football. But it was the Netherlands. So, are you therefore, for anyone who doesn't know, a Netherlands fan because, like Brendan, of your love for that country having lived there.

Yes, I am a massive Netherlands fan. I think the love affair began… I watched on a very tiny television, the Argentina-Holland game in the '98 World Cup with a famous Bergkamp goal. And the thing that it had that the '94 World Cup certainly didn't have is the whole city. You just walked outside. No one you passed hadn't seen it. And the whole city turned orange, and everybody was so excited. And not that they needed any reason to drink more, but I felt like they drank a little bit more. It felt like a two-week-long party. And yeah, I was just all in. Plus, that was a very lovable Dutch team. And at the time, I did not have my Boston Red Sox scratch itched, and I liked that the Dutch felt very much like the Boston Red Sox, right? They were the best team that hadn't won it, and they'd had these sort of heartbreaking endings. So, I felt like real, sort of common cause with the Dutch fans about their team, and I liked getting on board.

That was a great Dutch team with Dennis Bergkamp, and Marc Overmars, and Edgar Davids and Patrick Kluivert, Edwin van der Sar…

Jaap Stam.

Jaap Stam. [CHUCKLES]

I remember once Jaap Stam getting his face stitched, like a cut on his eye stitched, and he looked the way I do when a monologue joke goes slightly bad. Just no… Like, barely raising the other eyebrow.

I remember this exactly as well. We watched that game together. That was the first game of Euro 2000, which Holland won 1-nothing on a late Frank de Boer penalty. But yeah, Jaap Stam gets hurt at one point, and just by either sheer luck of his positioning or by excellent directing, [CHUCKLES] he's getting his eye stitched, but he's looking basically directly into the camera that must be all the way across the stadium. And he's not blinking as this needle goes in and out of his eyebrow. It was incredible. It's unforgettable.

Jaap Stam also sounds like slang for a man who can't feel pain.

That guy's a real Jaap Stam. But that… So, I should note, I'm glad you brought up the 2000 Euro Cup because that is one of the best summers of my life. And I recently made a list of the most painful Dutch losses since my entry in 1998. And number one, Brendan, was us watching that Italy loss together in your weird apartment. Have you talked about your weird apartment?

Uh, no.

[SIGHS] I've alluded to it.

I don't feel like… If you've alluded to it, you haven't done it justice because it deserves its own breakout podcast.

Well, I'd love to hear someone else's description of it, frankly. So, fire away.

Wow!

All right. Brendan lived with 15 Dutch guys above a McDonald's, and during the Euro Cup, they cleared out their living room and built bleachers around a television. So, it was like you were sitting in the stands watching a game. And I sat with these 15 Jaap Stams as we watched. They actually were not Jaap Stams because everyone acutely felt the pain of a game where we missed two penalties in regular time and then lost on penalty kicks. And I believe, right, there was a red card. Italy played with 10 men for like 60 minutes.

Yeah. For… Yeah, from like the half hour mark or something. It was a staggeringly bad loss.

And that was the other thing about being in Holland for those games is when they lost, the speed at which the orange left the city… [CHUCKLES] It was, you know… By the time you walked out of that what should have been condemned apartment that Brendan lived in with 15 guys, like the whole street, there was no orange to be seen.

Yeah. So, Seth I was going to ask, so obviously one of the many things we've talked about over the last few weeks, Seth, has been Messi, and it's been Ronaldo. So, I'm kind of interested in where you come at this debate. How much do you want Messi to win this World Cup? And how much are you like the rest of the world, it now seems? Do you hate Ronaldo now?

So, I wanna stress something before I say this answer. This comes from a very irrational place, and I understand how unlikeable it will make me sound. I don't want anything good for either of them.

They have brought me nothing but sadness. I'm pretty sure Ronaldo's eliminated Holland twice from major tournaments, and Messi has done the same. And so, I wish them the best. I hope that they make their fans and supporters happy. It's not that I don't want happiness in the world, but neither of them are capable of bringing any joy to me. Yeah.

I love it. That's honest. I'm OK with that. So, who do you want to win the World Cup now then? France, Morocco, or Argentina?

I don't care.

[LAUGHS] Fair enough. I don't really either.

You know what was the wonderful thing that happened? I'm pretty sure Louis van Gaal gave the answer that I want to give. I don't care, and I'm not gonna watch.

I love it.

Here's the thing, you guys, right? Football is your life now, and you're both very good at it. It is still just a thing. I have three kids and a job. I cannot be a fan of a sport. I can only be a fan of teams. Right? Once my teams are out, I have to use that time to be a better father, a better husband and a better talk show host. And so, again…

God, what happened to you?

I don't want anybody to listen to this and think "You know what, Seth's right. I shouldn't watch the World Cup final." I'm just saying I'm not gonna be there with you.

OK. OK. But there is a team that you love that you can't just forget about until May of every year, and that is West Ham United. Because that is your Premier League team. So, talk me through… Was it the kit? Was it the claret and blue? 'Cause you love your orange.

This is a great question. I think at the time there were no orange teams in the Premier League, but…

And still aren't.

I was doing a show in London at the Soho Theatre with my comedy partner Jill Benjamin, and this is '99, I think, maybe 2000. I wanted to go see a Premier League game, went to the ticket agents. The three teams that were in town, Arsenal, Charlton Athletic, West Ham. I thought this is my one chance to go to East London. And look, I've been loyal. I've stuck with them, don't get me wrong, since it was basically a coin flip. Do I wish I'd picked Arsenal? You know, if I could go back in time. I don't know why I didn't. I really liked "Fever Pitch." It seemed like a very natural… It certainly… When you were talking about who's the closest to the Red Sox, I think at the time Arsenal was, right. I mean, when they remade that book as an American movie, they made it the Red Sox. [CHUCKLES] But I went out there and had a lovely time. A miserable, rainy game against Newcastle, 1-nil. Ate a meat pie that I'm just getting over.

I actually think you picked right. Well, first of all, thank God you didn't pick Charlton Athletic. Can we just say that? OK, so well done on that. But I think you picked right because you will come with a lot of credibility for picking a team that aren't top all the time and always winning, although Arsenal have had a dodgy time recently. So, I think it brings you a lot of credibility.

And the thing is, you just can't switch. Once you pick, you can't switch. Speaking of Charlton Athletic, now, I was a big Paolo Di Canio fan. Not of his soccer, just of his political fascism after the fact. But at the time… I don't even know if I'm right about that. I know there's some dodgy…

There is some dodgy…

There's some dodgy stuff. But I love Paolo Di Canio. And Brendan, do you remember you got me a Paolo Di Canio jersey, and do you remember the terrible error you made?

Yeah. And I wish I could say it was an accident. It was actually a horrible misjudgment. Go on.

He got me a Charlton Athletic Paolo Di Canio jersey.

Now Di Canio had transferred to Charlton by that point. I wasn't…

[STAMMERS INDISCERNIBLY] No. Yeah. Now, now everybody's got your back. An unwearable gift.

Oh my God. Where is that shirt? I wanna know.

I actually might not know either.

In my defense, and this is in instructive for all our new soccer fans out there, it's a step on the road as becoming a soccer fan. You get so excited about it. You learn you can buy shirts, and you start buying people shirts all the time. Now I was like, Seth's birthday is coming up, and Seth is in town, and he loves Paolo Di Canio, but now, Paolo's on Charlton. I gotta get him a Charlton shirt. Not realizing that Charlton and West Ham are bitterest, bitterest rivals. And I didn't know my error until the next year. It was my birthday, and the great Jordan Peele, who was in Boom Chicago at the time, approaches me with a present. His eyes are beaming. He's very proud of the present he's gonna give me, like to this like, Ajax slash Arsenal slash Holland slash U.S. fan. And I open it, and it's a Bayern Munich jersey. And like, what? What are you doing? And at that moment, I realized, [GASPS] Charlton! Damn it. What have I done?

Yeah. Bad present.

So, Seth, looking ahead then. You mentioned it right at the beginning, 2026. I mean, we've never had a World Cup in England in my lifetime. So back in 1966, it was the World Cup, and I obviously wasn't born. Would love nothing more than England to host a World Cup. How much are you looking for? I mean, in three and a half years, the World Cup's gonna be in the United States, Mexico and Canada. It's gonna be amazing.

I'm so excited. I'm so excited because I feel like my kids will be old enough to really appreciate it. And you know, obviously there's an expectation you're gonna have a couple, four or five games in New York, which will be so lovely. It'll be so much fun to travel, to go see the Netherlands, should they end up playing somewhere cool. It's also nice to know that you'll be able to watch games when your internal clock wants to watch sports. Like, it's been super…

Yeah. I mean, you guys, I was on a train with my kids during the Holland-Argentina game. That's not how you're supposed to watch it. And let me just say when it was 2-nil, I angrily, angrily stopped watching. And so, what happened for me is then I got a lot of excited texts, and I got to lose twice. I got to lose, petulantly stop watching, get told no, there's a chance. Got to watch and lose again all on a train. It was the total opposite of being in a Leidseplein while everybody was wearing orange, being on a train where nobody gave a shit about it.

This is a man who had to stop watching the Argentina-Holland semifinal when it went to penalty kicks in 2014 'cause he had a show to do. He had an iPad on his lap that he kept going back and forth to watch. This was on TV. And then finally, he saw [CHUCKLES] someone had texted you that Argentina had won. And then, there on screen, you took that iPad and hurled it to the ground. [LAUGHS]

Melted down. In real time, you watched me go through the like five stages of grief.

But Seth, is there anything else? Is there anything else in this world? I mean, even other sport, I feel like there's nothing else that gives us this ridiculous pain that we keep coming back and knocking on the door, "Can we come back in for more pain?"

And the fact that it's every four years, right? I mean, luckily you know that you can obviously as evidenced by how heartbroken I was in 2000, you can get excited about the Euro Cup. Like, that would count. Seeing that I would accept as a reward if Holland won that. But, yeah, it's just heartbreaking when it's over. And I think again, since '98, I think six times Holland's gone out on penalties. That is the slowest of deaths. As you just realize… [CHUCKLES] Someone making eye contact while they very slowly slide a sword through your midsection.

So true. So true. But I still can't come up with another way, can you? I've really thought about this a lot. I still can't come up with a better way to finish a game.

Yeah, I agree. Everybody says they should change it, and nobody has a good idea. And you know what? It is dramatic, right?

Sure.

It is.

Duels were not a good way to solve arguments. And then you look at "Hamilton," still a hit.

Right. Right.

Drama.

Exactly. [CHUCKLES]

Oh, how is that rap musical about the Euro 2000 semifinal going that you were gonna be writing?

Well, you refuse to send me your verses, so I'd say it's half done.

It's so hard to rhyme Kluivert.

Yeah, Kluivert's not great.

On that note, Seth, we are so chuffed to have you join us here on "After the Whistle." Thank you. Sorry again for your pain this year. But you'll be back for more pain in 2026.

I will. I'll be first in line for the pain. And to all the teams remaining, I wish you nothing.

[LAUGHS] Because I won't be watching! I love it.

Wish you nothing at all. I'm gonna go watch "Fleishman Is in Trouble."

And Paolo Di Canio, we salute you, but not the way you want us to.

Not the way you want us to. [CHUCKLES] Charlton Athletic, Paolo Di Canio. Remember everyone, that's the team you should associate with him for always.

Thank you, Seth. You're the best.

Final thoughts. Rebecca, you ready?

Yeah, I'm ready for bits and bobs.

There's bit number one. Apparently, someone in France got into Brett Goldstein's lasagna recipe.

[CHUCKLES] I know!

Because some guys are sick and missing training. Rabiot and Upamecano were not at training today. They have both started every game except for the Tunisia game, where that was a whole B team going in. So, yikes.

Bonne nuit. That's all I've got to say.

Bonne nuit.

Bonne nuit.

Bonne nuit with your dicky tummy.

[LAUGHS] He is the first person I thought of when I saw that report. And then the other thing, just to round up today's episode, obviously the last time we were talking was straight after the England game and Harry Kane's penalty miss, which… Oh, so many memes, [SIGHS] so many threads, so much discussion about that penalty miss and that interesting one about apparently, Jordan Henderson was keeping all the French players away from him when he took his first penalty and making sure that Kane had freedom of mind and all that. And then, Henderson was off the field. He'd been substituted, I think, apparently, when Kane took a second. So, there was nobody to protect him, bless him. So, apparently Giroud was in his face and all this kind of stuff. Nah, nah. I'm not sure about that. Just score the goal.

We have another bit and bob here, and this is just horrible. Course, one of the most striking memories we're gonna have this World Cup is the Iranian national football team not singing their national anthem as a protest for what was going on back at home. Now they were not the only footballers in Iran who were joining protests. And today, we learned that one of those, a 26-year-old league footballer named Amir Nasr Azadani, according to reports, had been sentenced to death. Now, he's one of several that've been sentenced to death, and today apparently, an Iranian wrestler has been arrested. But just to show again the incredible danger and bravery of these footballers for doing what they did with the eyes of the world on them. And it's admirable and terrifying.

It's sickening, Brendan. It's absolutely sickening. When I saw that story this morning, and if anyone had any doubt that they were brave or that they were under any real threats and in any real danger, I think this story shows us quite what is going on and quite how brave, as you say, they were. And actually, that in retrospect, and as the days go by, will go down as one of the headlines, one of the biggest moments at this World Cup and actually in World Cup history. And let's hope that there is a way to stop that from happening. That possibly there is a way. I dunno enough about world politics to know how on earth that could be. But let's hope 'cause it's horrific.

Well, as Roger Bennett likes to say, "Courage." Speaking of Roger Bennett, Rebecca, I was tickled to see that you appeared on the "Men in Blazers" podcast live in San Francisco the other day.

Oh, it was so fun. We gave you a shout out. Talked about the pod and all the GFOPs in the audience. And Roger and Dave have always been so incredibly supportive of me since I came here to America. So, I love to go on the show as and when I can. And they're just like some sort of pop band. They just go like, on tour around America and just meet fun people and just talk to all their fans. It's brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant. For where they were 10 years ago to where they are now, by the way. Incredible growth.

Yeah. And I guess just the night before that, they did a show here in Los Angeles.

Yeah. Yeah. Not invited?

I was not invited.

But I'm glad you were.

When I say fun people, I said, yeah. Fun people. They talk to all these…

Yeah, yeah. No, they sound fun. It sounds like everyone with them is having a really great time.

Anyway. OK. If you are loving the show, subscribe on Apple Podcasts and be sure to rate and review us, please. It really helps other people find the show. We've only got three episodes to go.

And for 'round the clock World Cup News plus scores and standings, follow along on the Apple News app in My Sports where available.

And we are gonna be back with more World Cup coverage right here in your podcast feed tomorrow with France versus Morocco.

A reminder, we want you guys to ask us questions. Now to submit, you simply record your question via voice memo on your phone and email it to ATW, that's "After the Whistle," but just the initials, at meadowlark-media.com. That's the word meadow, immediately followed by the word lark, followed by just a dash, not the word dash, followed by the word media, not actual media, dot com. ATW@meadowlark-media.com. We'll select a few, and we will answer them on our penultimate show, that's fancy for next to last, on December 17th. Please keep the questions to 30 seconds or less and focus them on a football.

And they are coming in thick and fast, by the way, Brendan. So, get some more in, and we'll pick the best ones.