Welcome to aerospace unplugged.
Hello and welcome back to aerospace and plugged a podcast dedicated to giving our listeners a behind the scenes look into all things aerospace. I'm your host, Carrie Sinclair , and today's episode is all about urban air mobility. Urban air mobility describes a world of drones, personal flying vehicles, and on demand air travel that is just beginning to take shape. Many UAM designs Incorporate Multiple Electric Motors.
These designs aim to provide a new kind of quiet, efficient point-to-point aviation needed to navigate the world cities. Joining me today to discuss urban air mobility is our senior director of Hybrid Electric Electric Propulsion. Brian Wood, welcome to the show Brian. Thanks Carrie . Appreciate it. And glad to be here. That is quite a title. Can you walk me through how you became a hybrid electric electric propulsion director?
Absolutely. So my background is actually in mergers and acquisitions , um , as well as investment banking and private equity. So I started my career off with Merrill Lynch in New York City, was there for a couple of years , um, and worked for a company in the south and their m and a group. And then started with Honeywell's MNA group about seven years ago in Phoenix.
And , um, what I've been able to do is take a lot of the, you know, skills and, and , and knowhow and credibility essentially that I've established through my time and m and a and, and apply that towards a role like this. So I actually started off in a new business development role with power systems and what all the buzz about was at that time was, you know, urban air mobility and hybrid electric propulsion, supersonic aircraft, things of that nature.
And so I, I found myself actually spending 80 plus percent of my time focusing on hybrid electric propulsion. And then it came about where, hey, we probably need someone to run this group and this thing's really starting to, you know, take focus and it's starting to grow and it's , it's becoming more and more important.
And so , um, due to all the time that I had been focusing on that , uh , you know, sector they , they decided to appoint me essentially is , you know, head of the group and , um, you know, the rest is history.
Great. That's great. Well, I know our listeners are eager to learn about urban air mobility. And since you are the expert, when it comes to hybrid electric engines, we have many questions for you. Starting with what is a hybrid electric engine? Yeah,
absolutely. So it's essentially where you're taking, and I guess the easiest parallel to draw is think of something like the Toyota Prius, right, where you have lithium ion batteries. So you have a fuel source and you have a non fuel source, let's say that the end up providing power or thrust for the vehicle.
So, so here we're , we're talking about the same thing where you would take one of our turbine engines that we sell on traditional aircraft today and you couple that with either fuels sales , um, lithium ion batteries , um, uh , plugin. Yeah. You know, could be plugged in as well, right? So other things of that nature and those two in conjunction with each other, you know, then power electric motors essentially, which then spin the actual props on the vehicle.
And that's, that's how you wind up, you know, with , uh , with a new propulsion system as opposed to using just a turbine engine.
Okay. So let's talk about urban air mobility. What is that market exactly and what kind of need is it fulfilling?
Yeah. So in regards to urban air mobility, that the thing that we often hear most right is that up to $300 billion worth of productivity is lost every year in the economy. Um , just in the US economy due to people sitting in traffic.
That actually sounds really familiar to me.
Yeah, exactly. So the idea is that if you could fly up and above the traffic, especially in dense metropolitan cities like Los Angeles or a New York City. Yeah, yeah. Phoenix, it seems like that brings home to you. Um , and you can save time and if you can do it at a price point that's similar to what , um, you know, commute . Yeah, exactly. Some to commute, which is actually what Uber is trying to get to in the long term and to, and to us it would make all the sense in the world.
And that's essentially what they're going after.
Okay. So, but why hybrid electric and not the tried and true engines of the past?
Sure. Um, so I guess four or five things. So, so one hybrid electric, it'll be, it'll be cleaner. Um, it'll be safer. It'll be , um, quieter and then it'll potentially even be cheaper as well. So, so those are really the four benefits that you would get at a hybrid electric and especially with , um, you know, worries about global warming and , uh, you know, excess carbon emissions, things of that nature. And, and of course costs as well. Right?
Um, initially these things won't be at the price point of a car or an Uber or you know , black car. Right? So, so doing everything we can to really get the cost point down , um , and to make them as energy efficient as possible is, is, is why it at least has to be hybrid. Now, there are a lot of folks that are pushing for all electric from the very beginning, and that's possible, but there are range , um, or are range implications there , right?
You might be able to do one trip or two trips, but then you'll have to ( charge up) stop and charge for 10 to 15 minutes, and that's lost revenue while you're sitting on the ground. So,
okay, so I understand the cost implications, but walk me through safety.
So, so in regards to safety, if you take a look at a helicopter today, it has the one main rotor at the very top. Um, and we are talking about vertical flight here, right? Ah , yes. We have to land on buildings. Yeah , yeah, correct. Um , so as the one main rotor on the top, and then it has , um, a lot of helicopters, and I'll actually draw on what they do in New York City today, there's a company called blade actually t that uses single engine helicopters to fly over the city.
And so if, if either that helicopter fails or that main rotor fails that that could result in catastrophic loss for everyone on board. So with the , with the hybrid electric propulsion system where you're coupling a turbine engine with, with batteries, if one of those two fails, you're okay and you can still land safely. Uh , you've got redundancy. Exactly. You've got redundancy. If the main rotor goes out, you actually have at six to eight rotors on these vehicles.
Now, depending on which one you look at, but most common, you'll, you'll find about six to eight of them. If, if one or two of those fails, you'll still be okay . So once again, you've got redundancy, not only in the propulsion system, but also in the prop slash fan . So,
and you don't want it to engine because that'll add cost .
Exactly. Two engine would be way too expensive. And , and once again, I'm getting back to the cleanliness of this. It , it , it just won't be energy efficient either. So good.
Okay. So , uh, will all UAM vehicles be required to use hybrid electric or do you think that some companies will go another route?
Yeah, so our belief right now is that they'll at least have to be hybrid electric. Um , in certain places like Europe, honestly, hybrid electric may not be clean enough, so it , it, it may have to be all electric, even in Europe. Ah , okay . But at a minimum, yes. We believe they'll at least have to be hybrid electric.
And what kind of certification criteria would they go through? Same as any FAA related certifications or EASA.
Yeah. Um, and so they're actually still working through that at this point. And so the FAA rolled out the new part 23 , um, in , in late 2017. Um, and so most likely, and these are discussions that we've had, you know, with the FAA and EASA and others , most likely they'll actually certify the engine , um, as an Apu. So it'll be TSOed and then they'll actually certify the motors and the , um , electric drive system as, as parked 33, which isn't typical, isn't something that we've seen before.
But the idea is that the actual motors and motor controllers will be the main provider of thrust in this case. And the engine will essentially be the auxiliary power unit that's, you know, providing the power to those. Exactly. Great . So
how can it be more efficient just because it's not using as much fuel?
Exactly. Now there's a little bit of a game that's being played there because you're , you're not counting the actual electricity that's used to charge the lithium ion batteries. Um , so it's not counted as local emissions, right, because it's been charged elsewhere off the grid.
And so there are a lot of, you know , corporations and individuals that put out , um , I put out numbers claiming that , um , a hybrid electric Polston system will be, you know, 30 to 50% more fuel efficient that the true number, if you actually counted the emissions from the batteries, maybe it's closer to five to 10 to 15%, but it regardless, it'll be, it'll be more fuel efficient.
So what kind of thrust are we talking about? How much power will these engines have?
Yeah. Um, so the one that we've really showcased , which is the HGS 900 Turbo Gen , um, we'll be able to produce about 400 kilowatts worth of power. And so that's, that's, that's, you know, quite a bit.
So we're no longer talking about the rest. We're talking power, correct? Correct. We're talking about power. So, so tell me what 400 kilowatts really means. Yeah. So you could convert that back to horsepower, right? So that the ratio, you take horsepower multiple
apply it by roughly 0.74. That's how you get to kilowatts. Um, and um, I guess to, you know, put a little bit more perspective around that. So we're talking about six to 7,000 pound vehicles. So it's enough for the most part in conjunction with the lithium ion batteries to provide, you know, thrust for a six to 7,000 pound vehicle that will carry, you know, four to five passengers. So it , it will do its job.
Excellent. Okay. So this is going to have an impact on cities worldwide. Yup . So what kind of noise are we going to expect from this? So, so current estimates [inaudible]
we've seen, and it's funny, a lot of people get caught up on the actual engine itself as opposed to looking at the actual prop slash fans of the vehicles . So the helicopter today, most of the noise actually comes from that one main rotor as opposed to the actual propulsion system. And so what we're now doing with these vehicles is we're talking about six to eight different , uh , rotors slash props.
And so you've got smaller rotors, rotor slash props that'll actually spin at a fraction of the speed of what that one main rotor spins that today. And so if you take everything that I just mentioned, that the theory, or at least the belief is that these things will end up being one fourth to one half as quiet as a traditional helicopter, which will then hopefully blend in with the overall noise envelope of the, of the city and of the surrounding areas, thus not, you know,
not quite as disruptive as a current helicopter. Exactly . Okay. So what other challenges have you come across?
So the problem in general, not the problem in general, but in regards to urban air mobility, they're just a lot of things that have to happen in order for this market to come together. So , um, Uber will throw out a number like, you know, 200,000 vehicles for example , uh, by, by 2035 or 2040. Um ,
did we have the capacity? Does the industry have the capacity? My question, when you mentioned capacity, right? You have to [inaudible]
I think about numerous things. So you have to think about , um , where all of those pilots come from today, right? How are you going to be able to train 200,000 pilots in the next, you know, 10 to 15 years. Now there's a , there's a belief that these vehicles will eventually go autonomous, but how long will that take? Does that take until 20, 35, 20, 40 , um, supply chain slash manufacturing implications, right? The aerospace industry is not used to volumes like this at all today.
So if we're now told that we're going to manufacture five times the amount of turbine engines that we traditionally do, how do we, how do we overcome that? Um, from an airspace management perspective, which you just talked about, how do you make sure these things don't crash into each other? Don't crash into buildings, don't cause, you know, other sorts of [inaudible] .
Yeah, you're just really raising the traffic up above the cars. Yes , yes, yes. Exactly.
Um, and so I could go on, but there's a list that , you know, three or four other things that I would deem to be risk hurdles that really need to be overcome in order for this market dictate to come to fruition. So,
okay, so speaking of air traffic management, yeah. When the skies are dark with all of these vehicles. Yep . How are we going to manage all of that?
Yeah . So there, there are numerous regulatory bodies that are actually looking at this. So, so it's the FAA, it's the EASA, it's , uh , there are numerous , um , ASTM committees, numerous SAE committees. Um, gamma's actually formed the SFO committee to look at this. Yeah .
That's not an acronym . Give you, take it down for me.
So there , um , so essentially what they're looking to do [inaudible] yeah. And so they're looking to use, you know, essentially artificial intelligence or other means essentially, of being able to, to manage the traffic. Because to your point, it'll, it'll be extremely congested.
And, and how do you make, you know, not only the people in the vehicle feel safe, but from a public and , and in a private private acceptance, in a societal perceptive standpoint, how do you make everyone that's working in the buildings, in those areas where that lives, you know, any within, you know, a dense metropolitan city, how do you make them feel safe, right? That these things won't crash and won't , you know, cause an issue and so, so on , so forth.
So , um, long story short, there's a lot of work being done in that area. Um, and um, they're making a lot of progress, but there's, there's still a lot of progress to be made.
So are you thinking 20, 35? I mean, when will , when do you think we might see one of these vehicles in this guy? All right , so the [inaudible] ,
the targets we've seen so far are actually as early as 2022 to 2023. Um, so I think we will start on a very small scale at that point. Right? So most likely you'll start with, you know, routes to and from the airport. Right. Which are essentially more simple , um, and, and , uh , more straightforward , easier to manage. Right.
And then what Uber wants to do or others want to do beyond that is then grow it to be, you know, five Vertaports in a city, then 10 Virta ports in a city, then in 15 than 20 and then 25 and then expand right to, you know, 20 to 50 to 100 to 150 to 200 cities after that. So it, it'll definitely , uh , progress over time and it'll scale up over time.
So if you had to guess, where do you think it's gonna Start? La. New York.
Yeah. Uh, so, so Uber's targeted , uh, LA and Dallas as , as their to launch cities in the U S and , um, they've, they've picked an international city in apparently they'll reveal what that is at the, at the Uber Elevate conference this year. Um, and
so you've mentioned Uber a couple times. Are there some other competitors as well?
Um, so there are , uh, so Airbus is actually launched, its, its , its own version called Voom. Um , and so they're , they're currently operating helicopters in, in Sao Paulo and Mexico City today. Um , and so Uber's looking to, or sorry, Voom's looking to compete, which is a sub of Airbus. Um , blade is a helicopter, a company that's currently offering service through helicopters today in New York City, in La , um, and other places throughout the country.
And there are certain , um, municipalities actually that are, that are looking to manage this themselves. So just like , um, municipalities manage the bus system, the bus system, the rail system, the train system, so on, so freelance , you know, in their mind they're thinking, why can't we manage this as well? Um, and do it as a scheduled service perhaps. Right. So just like the bus, every morning we'd come at eight and eight. Oh seven, then eight, 17 and eight. 25
for every 10 minutes, you're aggressive. I like it. Why can't they do the same here? So I have a question. Uh , we talked about 200,000 potential vehicles. Yep . What would you recommend someone who's listening, who's maybe in their early twenties, who wants to get into this industry? What kind of pilot license might they want, what kind of experience might they need so that they can be a part of a shuttle system moving forward?
Yeah, absolutely. So, so on the pilot for honestly, I, I wish I had a better answer that question. It's somewhat undetermined yet as to exactly what the classification of pilot license will have to be for a vehicle like this. Um ,
but at least a helicopter license or a pilot license to get started. Yeah .
It'll , it will be much more similar to a helicopter license, that's for sure. Um, but for other [inaudible] , uh, the Honeywell team is hiring, I know that , um , you know, all of our competitors are hiring as well there . There's a lot of , um, a lot of startups, of course, right, that are engaged in this industry. So , um ,
and if you're interested in working at Honeywell's careers@honeywell.com
so , so of course we're a huge fan of what we're doing at Honeywell, right? We have our own dedicated hybrid propulsion group. We're, you know, attacking it within every division at Honeywell. Um, so, so we're going full force and so yeah, we , we'd love to recruit, you know , top talent to, you know, assist our UAM efforts.
Great. So I have many more questions around UAM. How will they be restricted in a time frame ? Like, so do you think it'll be just rush hour traffic or maybe once it's dark they're done? Yep . Um, it sounds like they might not know yet, but
yeah, no, it's a good question. So, so I think that the most amount of volume or most amount of traffic will definitely occurred during rush hour. Um, and then most likely to your point, there will be just like you have today with airports where you've got certain time constraints that you can't fly into where you can't take off from airports for example. Um, most likely that we'll be, there'll be time constraints put around that.
Um, so I would look, I would look for, for by far the busiest times of the day to , to be during rush hour.
So let's talk altitude restrictions because I'm very interested because Phoenix particularly is one of the rare cities that has a downtown airport. Basically the airport is right by downtown. So how do you think , um , altitude restrictions would take place in most cities and then how would it impact a city like Phoenix where the airport's so close to downtown?
Yup . Yup . It's a good question. Especially because , um, if you look, so 30% of Uber and Lyft rides actually go to and from the airport. So if you, if [inaudible]
all of that, so it doesn't really matter where the airport is. Well, well, but I guess if you, if you follow that same same logic,
you assume that, you know , 30% of these rides will go to and from the airport as well. I th I think what you're getting at is how are you, how you manage that traffic. Yeah .
Thank you. You Hey airspace. Exactly. Given that you have all this air traffic taking off from the airport as well, that's where I was going with it. Yep , exactly. And so
once again, that's something that all the different regulatory agencies are, are working through. Um , and they'll look to, you know, leverage things like artificial intelligence and more to , to assist with that. It's, it's just, it's not an easy, not an easy problem statement by any means, but there's a lot of progress being [inaudible] .
We had a smart people working on that problem. All right. So if the world is to comply with emissions regulations, is it essential to pivot towards emission free transportation systems and, and do you think this will spread outside of the urban air mobility to other aircraft as well? I think so.
Yeah. And so we are doing everything within our power, right, to look at biofuels or look at, you know, alternative sources of energy, which, which , um , could then power our , our turbine engines and actually be cleaner than something like lithium ion batteries or fuel cells. I mean, you technically use a hybrid electric engine or a turbine engine to power one of these and you're using by fills . That's, that's technic or that's technically zero emissions , right? So, right.
Um , but yes, there are, you know, there's clean sky initiatives in Europe than our other initiatives in the u s and Asian, so on and so forth that are looking to drastically curb emissions , um, you know, for, for traditional aircraft. Um, and so there, there's a lot of work being done and, and yeah . So to answer your question, I think it definitely will , um, you know, impact aircraft beyond , uh , what we'll see in regards to urban areas .
So are you working with our peers over at UOP or Honeywell performance materials?
We are. Yep . So , um , we're working actually with the folks at, at UOP and, and some of our folks as well. Um, within our , um, legacy acs business. Right , right. So not the homes business, but the [inaudible] correct. The sensors business. And so we're doing work with them, right? We're trying to come to market , um, you know, by, by thinking about all aspects of the ecosystem and to make sure, right. That we're leveraging all the different businesses within Honeywell, right.
To , to make sure that we can provide the most valuable and the most comprehensive offering in the space.
Okay. So lastly, how will hybrid electric engines create a safer experience for passengers? I know we touched on it earlier, but I just want to kind of wrap it up with some safety. Sure. Yeah. So I think it's really good .
Know , once again, going back to the redundancy, not only in the propulsion system , uh , but the redundancy with the props and rotors . So you're going from one prop or sorry, yeah, one prop now to, you know, six to eight props on average and then you're going from having potentially just one turbine engine in a helicopter, right? To having two sources of power, right? So you'll have the actual , um , turbine engine, let's say coupled with lithium ion batteries.
And so that's, that's really how it will become more safe. Now you've touched on all the things in regards to airspace management as well. Those are, you know, huge when it comes to , uh , you know, safety. And so a lot of work being done in that area once again, and , and , um, we're following all that closely,
right? So I really appreciate you joining us today and I feel like I got an education, which is great. I do like to ask our guests a question at the end of the podcast. How do you unplug at the end of the day, how do you relax and , and , and unwind?
Oh Man. Unfortunately I don't, I don't think I do enough of that. Um , I'm a, you know, typically up til you know, eight or nine or 10, and I feel like working on, on most nights , um, which I love because it's been, it's been a ton of fun working in and within this area. Um, unwind by doing more work. Yeah. I don't want to doing that. Honeywell shareholders that are loving me. But , um , um, after that though, I'll, I'll, I'll try to find one .
Um, try to find time honestly to, you know, sit down and relax with my wife, whether it's, you know, in the backyard , um, or it's in front of the TV , you know, watching a show that we like together, something of that nature. But I, I could definitely work on that more.
All right . I think we're going to have to suggest some hobbies for this guy. That's right. All right , everyone. Once again, my name is Carrie Sinclair and thank you again to listening to aerospace unplugged. To find out more about urban air mobility, please visit our website@aerospace.honeywell.com safe travels. And we'll see you next time.
Yeah. [inaudible]
this episode was produced by Katie Kearney and edited by Chloe Dake .